True Crime All The Time - Todd Kendhammer

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

On the morning of September 16th, 2016, Todd Kendhammer called 911 to report that his wife, Barbara, had been seriously injured in an accident. He claimed a pipe fell off a passing truck, flew through their windshield, and hit Barbara, causing fatal injuries. Investigators didn’t think his story added up. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Todd Kendhammer and the death of his wife, Barbara. Investigators became suspicious of Todd very early on. Surveillance video captured the Kendhammer vehicle, but not the truck passing in the opposite direction. A witness said they saw the call just minutes before the 911 call was made, and there was no damage to the windshield. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 448 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing great, man. I'm having a banger of a week. A banger? A banger. Okay.

I don't know if that's a saying. I don't know. I'm using it. You use that word banger. Much like you did on our Patreon episode with A-Stat. A-stat. That's right. A-statt. That's right. A combination of stat and A-Stat. app. They all know what I'm talking about. Speaking of our Patreon

episode, we have a new one out that dropped Saturday night. It's on Patrick Gillum. Very interesting case where, you know, he committed a murder, was caught over three decades later. Yeah.

With like a microscopic amount of DNA. It's a very fascinating DNA type of case. Yeah. Nano micro. Or, yeah, or as you would call it,

nanomikro. We also have a new episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about Paul Baker who went missing from his home in March 1987 you know we're now over 30 some years later he still has not been found yeah but this is a case where you know they have someone I think that many people believe is responsible for Paul's disappearance and this person remains a person of interest they just haven't been able to put it all together yeah hopefully one day let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Echo Thomas. Hey, Echo, Echo, Echo, Echo,

Robin. Chris Lind. What's going on, Chris? Wren. Oh, there's Ren. Richard Handler. Well, thank you. You know what your real name is. Kendall Coleman. Hey, Kendall. Kendall. Oh, there's the other Kendall. Sierra Mitchell. Oh, see, I like, see, I like that name, Sierra. Always have, yeah. Like the truck. That's true. Yeah. Missy Bishop. Hey, Missy. And last been on least, send us sharp. That's because send doesn't really sharp. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Eilica. Well, thanks, Alica. So I appreciate all the support that we get. Do. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Yeah, I am.

We're talking about Todd Kandhammer. On the morning of September 16, 2016, Todd Kendhammer called 911 to report that his wife Barbara had been seriously injured in an accident. He claimed that a pipe fell off a passing truck, flew through their windshield, and hit barber, causing fatal injuries. But investigators, you know, came to think that his story just didn't add up. But sounds scary, man. Well, it's something that is plausible, right?

It could happen. Good. It is very scary. You think you're just driving down the road. Something falls off a truck. you know, everybody's going 70, 80 miles an hour. Whatever that object is, hits your windshield. It could do some very serious damage.

That's coming at you. Todd and Barbara met in 1989 when they were both 16 years old. Todd would later testify that he fell in love with Barbara at first sight, saying, just one of those things where you know immediately that's the girl you want. You've been there. I have been there. and 30 plus years later, we're still together. There you go.

How about that? You still look at art the same way. Yeah. Todd and Barbara got married in August 1991. They had a son named Jordan and a daughter named Jessica. Jessica and Jordan told 48 hours that their parents were deeply in love. They said, Todd was always on the go and Barbara always wanted to be with him. They didn't argue more than any other couple.

and according to Jessica, whatever my mom wanted, my dad gave it to her. Jessica also said they were just in a really good time in their lives because they had their first grandchild and they were well off. So what do you make of that gives? Sounds like they really loved each other. They were happy. It's not a situation you would think one would want to kill the other. No, not as, you know, their daughter described them.

Barbara worked in the cafeteria at a middle school in West Salem, Wisconsin. Todd worked at a factory that produces soda cans. He and Barbara flipped houses on the side. Todd also had a side job replacing car windshields. All right. It seemed like they got a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, they got a lot of side hustles going on. And, you know, flipping houses can be very profitable.

It can be. If you're good at it. Also can go wrong. Yeah. Very quick. quickly. In 2016, Jessica and Jordan threw a surprise 25th anniversary party for their parents. About a month later, on September 16th, 2016, the family was preparing to go on their annual camping trip. They planned to leave later that day after Barbara finished work.

Jordan, who was home from college, recalled waking up that morning and hearing Barbara in the kitchen. He heard the garage drawer open and his parents' car leave. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Todd was just driving Barbara to work. Jordan said this was normal for Todd to do. If he had the day off work, he would likely run errands and then pick Barbara up later in the afternoon. Shortly after 7.45 a.m., Todd and Barbara stopped at a neighbor's house because they were house sitting. They stayed for just a few minutes. After that, Todd headed north, away from the middle school.

Todd and Barbara were driving down County Road in. in the town of Hamilton, Wisconsin, he called 911 at 805 a.m. Todd reported an accident and said his wife was badly injured. He was in distress and he told the operator, she's hid in the head and in the throat, I think in the throat or something. He said a pipe or something came through the windshield. When police arrived, Todd claimed a pipe flew off a truck driving in the opposite direction. the pipe crashed through the windshield and hit Barber.

The pipe was found at the scene. It was 53 inches long and weighed around 10 pounds. It's really not that heavy of a pipe for the span that it was. Yeah, maybe, I don't know. Maybe it wasn't, you know, that thick or that big in diameter. But 10 pounds traveling a certain speed coming through the windshield. Going to do some damage. do some some serious damage now there's a couple of things that jump out at me right off the back yeah

the first is todd heading north away from the middle school right seems very strange if that's his destination why is he going away from it yeah and then the truck is heading in the opposite direction than they are. I don't know how that affects the speed, the impact. Would it actually be more because it's heading towards them as it flies off the truck? I see what you're thinking. You wonder about the velocity by the statistical force. Oh, that's exactly what I was thinking about.

You know, and then the inertia, mass, speed, gravity, all that. Yep. Break it down for me. But I was thinking the same thing. if it's going the opposite direction and it comes off the truck. I think it could actually gain more speed than if they were heading in the same direction. Potentially. I know physics is kind of your area of expertise.

That's why I'm, you know, kind of leaving that up to you. Quantum, but yeah. Quantum physics. Quantum leap. More like it. Todd was put into a police car and continued giving his statement. He said per 48 hours, I thought it was a bird. at first. And then at the last minute, I seen it was a pipe. Todd said that after the pipe came through

the windshield, he drove about 100 feet before he pulled over and the car rolled off the road. If you view photos of the vehicle, you can see the back half of the vehicle in the grass on the side of the road. After pulling over, Todd claimed he removed the pipe to get Barbara out of the car and administer CPR. He then called 911. On the way to the hospital, Todd described the truck as an older,

like a bigger flatbed looking truck, like a pickup truck with a flatbed on it. Yeah, I can visualize that. You can visualize an older truck? Yeah, that has a flatbed on it. Okay, good for you. He said he couldn't remember the cab color, but thought it was like dark green or dark blue.

At the hospital. Todd was panicked. He kept asking frequently for updates on Barbara. The neurosurgeon said her prognosis was poor. And in the early morning hours, she was pronounced brain dead. Barbara died just a few hours later. And I mean, I think everyone listening, you know, put yourself in that position. If something like that really happened to your spouse and you knew it was that serious. Yeah. Who wouldn't be panicked? Of course.

Who wouldn't be pestering to, you know, find out, is this person okay? Are they going to make it? You'd be beside yourself. And if you did do something wrong, you could be still panicky because you're concerned she might make it and talk. Well, that's a great point. Or, you know, you have to put on a show. Well, that's true, too.

So there's a number of different situations, but they all kind of close. culminate in a person acting the same way, whether genuine or for a different reason. Officers were already suspicious of Todd. They noticed blood on his knuckles and what appeared to be scratch marks on his neck. Todd said, the injuries to his hands came from striking the windshield as a knee-jerk reaction when he saw something flying at him. He said the scratches on his neck and chest came from, working with glass.

Okay. I mean, I can see hitting the glass with my hands, too, as it's coming towards me, just like, you know, get it away from hitting my face. Huh. See, I didn't see that. No. As a, and my knee-jerk reaction, I don't think would be to punch the glass, but I kind of get what you're saying.

You're putting your hands out in front of you to maybe deflect, but you do it so hard that you break the glass? Or you just have your hands up when whatever comes breaks the glass. It gets a little confusing there. Yeah. But he actually says striking the windshield. But maybe you're right. It could happen.

Now, authorities believe the scratches were more consistent with a struggle. Police spend time looking for the truck and put out work to find out if anyone in the community saw it that morning. Surveillance video from a horse ranch down the road shows. would appear to be the Kendhammer's vehicle, passing by at 7.57 a.m. Around this time, no truck matching Todd's description,

was seen heading in the opposite direction. The police also interviewed a construction worker who said he drove by the Kendhammer's car around 8 a.m. He didn't see any damage to the windshield or any people around. He saw the car in the ditch and thought somebody had driven off the road

or tried to make a turn and got stuck. He didn't see Todd or Barbara. That seems strange. Well, I think we're getting into the area of here of why, you know, authorities were suspicious of Todd, right? You have the surveillance camera that shows his car, but no truck. I mean, you have the surveillance video that shows their car, but not this truck that he describes the pipe falling off.

off of. And then you have this construction worker who says at eight o'clock, he sees the car not damaged at all. And remember, Todd calls 911 at 805. Yeah. So, you know, I think you can understand the suspicion on the part of police. Things are not lining up. Investigators learned that Barbara was supposed to be at work at 8 a.m. But she never called to say she'd be late. late, Barbara also called her mom every day, but she didn't on September 16th. It's a red flag. Well, you know, when we talk about cases, a lot of times we're talking about patterns. Now, many times it's on unsolved, right?

What do people do day in, day out? And why do they deviate on this day from a certain pattern when they go missing or something like that? but I think it applies maybe here as well. It kind of also goes hand in hand with why was Todd driving north away from the school if he was supposed to be taking his wife to work? During the drive to the hospital, Todd explained that he was driving in the opposite direction from Barbara's work because he was going to pick up a truck so he could drive

at home and replace the windshield. The truck was owned by Justin Hahn, who, he knew from work, Todd said the truck was supposed to be in the driveway with the keys inside. He didn't call Hime that morning because he was just going to swing over. And if the truck was there, he would take it. The police spoke to Justin Hine, who said he never ordered a windshield from Todd. He didn't need a windshield replacement at that time. And he said Todd didn't even know where he lived.

Okay. So here's my thing gives. if you're Todd Kenhammer and you're trying to throw police off the track, why would you come up with a story that can so easily be disputed? Yeah. I mean, did you not think they would verify everything you just said? That they're going to go immediately talk to this guy and he's going to say, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't need a windshield. I didn't order a windshield. But maybe, you know, that goes to, the fact that this wasn't planned out. He didn't have time to think about everything.

Because maybe what happened happened in the heat of the moment. Moment, yeah. Now he's just reacting. He's scrambling. Yeah. Right after the fact. Four days after Barbara's death, medical examiner Dr. Kathleen McCubbin conducted her autopsy.

Prosecutor Tim Grunkey told 48 hours, she didn't understand when she first heard a pipe had done it. She called law enforcement to look at the pipe because she didn't understand how that could be. Barbara had three lacerations on the back of her head. The medical examiner did not believe. These injuries were consistent with the accident as described by top. And I think right away, if you're picturing this accident with the pipe flying through the window, I don't think you're expecting to have lacerations on the back of the person's head.

Unless she was turned facing the opposite direction. Well, how could that happen? Unless she turned her head seeing the pipe or, you know, something like that coming. Barbara died of blunt trauma injuries of the head and neck with skull fractures, crychoid cartilage fractures, and ultimate brain death. The crycoid is the ring-shaped bony cartilage structure in the lower neck. Act, according to the prosecutor, the broken cry-coid cartilage was consistent with strangulation. I got to be honest with you. First of all, I don't know if I'm saying that correctly.

And that's not something that I've heard of. Yeah, I always call it the crechoid. Okay. And maybe that is how you say it. We talk a lot about the hyoid bone when it comes to strangulation, but this is something different. This cartilage is not something that I don't think I've ever heard of. And the hyoid is connected to the cry.

Sorry, I know it's not a laughing matter, but it's the way that you started that out, obviously got to me. The medical examiner noted other injuries, such as scratches on Barbara's neck, torn fingernails, a broken nose, bruises all over her body, and a laceration on her forehead that could have occurred in a struggle. So, I mean, I don't know, Gibbs. You know, you kind of run down all of these injuries. Right.

It doesn't sound all of them like this was a pipe that flew through the windshield. No, I mean, red flags everywhere again. I mean, you're thinking if it was the pipe and it had impact with her head, how did all this other stuff happen? It just doesn't line up. Yeah. Why the torn finger? nails, why all of these bruises, you know, all over her body.

I mean, it sounds like she was in a big struggle at one point and things went bad. And maybe this is his attempt as a cover up. Well, and I'm sure police are thinking this struggle would also explain some of the injuries that he had. That's true. That he said came from working with glass. A week after Barbara died, investigators. asked Todd to come to the station under the ruse that they had leads on the truck.

Todd told investigators, he had not taken his anti-exiety medication. He appeared confused and forgetful during his interview. Well, you know why he was probably confused and forgetful. If you aren't telling the truth from the beginning, and you've said it many times, it's hard to remember what to say when you're being interviewed. Well, it's pretty easy to get confused. Yeah. Now, I understand anti-anxiety medication, but wouldn't that make him maybe more nervous in the interview? But I don't know about confusion and forgiveness from not taking that.

Investigators told Todd that Barbara's injuries didn't occur from the pipe going through the windshield. Todd was also informed that police had spoken to his acquaintance, Justin Hunt, who said, he wasn't expecting to see Todd and hadn't spoken to him for weeks. That had to be one of those gulp moments. You know, when you hear that? Yeah. Sometimes we call that no shit moment. Yes.

But what happened was Todd changed his story and said he was actually going to see a friend of Justin's about a windshield replacement. But the police later found this friend who also said he didn't need a windshield and was not expecting to see Todd on September 16. So just another lie. Well, like we always talk about, right? You're confronted by police with something that doesn't match what you've told them so far. So what did some of these people do?

They try to pivot. Yeah. Like Ross carrying a couch up the stairs, you got to pivot. Yeah. But they're grasping at straws most of the things. time because they don't have anything real, right? You just have to make something else up and hope that what, police buy that or they're not able to refute it? Yeah. But again, what he makes up is something so easily verifiable. Yeah, like why not come up with something different that they

can't go ask somebody about. Yeah, maybe go away from the windshield replacement thing. Yeah. Yeah. But Not everybody belongs to Mensa. Not everyone can think on their feet. You know, let's say like a Mike Gibson. Yeah, like that. That's all you have to say is yeah. Todd was released after three and a half hours of questioning. But investigators continued building their case against him.

And I get that, right? They're going to release him. Let's say they feel like they don't have quite. enough to charge him, but there's no way they're letting this thing go. No. There's too much smoke here. Yeah, I'm sure they have eyes on them why they build this case. Yeah.

Todd was arrested on December 6, 2016, in charge with first degree intentional homicide. His trial started a year later on December 4th, 2017. The prosecution argued that Todd killed his wife, while the defense maintained Barbara's death was a tragic accident. Shocking that the prosecution and defense have completely, you know, differing opposite theories. Yeah, that's pretty typical. It is.

Obviously, I was being facetious. You always are facetious. And that sometimes leads to people doubting my veracity. There you go with your veras again. But it's every trial, right? Here's the prosecution's theory. the defense's arguments are going to be, you know, pretty much in the opposite direction, completely different. The prosecution did acknowledge they didn't have a motive.

There was no evidence Todd or Barbara were having an affair. They had no history of domestic violence or financial troubles. That makes it a little tougher. It does. Now, we've heard plenty of prosecutors say, you know, I don't have to have the motive. I don't have to prove why they did it, but it is strange, right? And in a lot of cases, not where you're talking serial killers, but where a husband kills a wife or the other way around, there's usually something to point to.

Somebody's having a secret affair. I mean, it definitely helps the case if you can point to something. There's huge life insurance. Yeah. And that could be the case here as well. but with no financial trouble, it doesn't really scream out, well, I have to kill this person. I need the life insurance. Sometimes people just get tired of people.

That is true. You know, seeing their same face weekend. Week after week. Sitting across from them for hours at a time. Constantly feeding. Oh, wait. At the trial, investigators testified that they searched for but never found. the truck or any surveillance videos showing a truck that matched Todd's description.

Well, that would have been so helpful to him if they could, right? Because then they can say, oh, well, there was a flatbed truck that went by and, you know. Now, the absence of surveillance video doesn't mean the same thing as seeing it on video. That's true. But you can make an argument that if it's catching his car, How is it possible that it doesn't catch the truck at some point in time if it's heading in the opposite direction? Yeah. Dr. Kathleen McCubbin was the state star witness.

She testified that Barbara's injuries were inconsistent with Todd's story and the additional injuries to her body could suggest a physical altercation before her death. The defense didn't call their own forensic pathologists. But Todd's attorney, Stephen Hurley, tried to create reason. doubt during cross-examination, the defense asked Dr. McCubbin, if Barbara's travel mode, which was found on the passenger seat floor, could have slammed into her face. If she ducked to avoid the pipe, Dr. McCubbin responded, it could be. It's a possibility. And I think you see, you know, smart defense attorneys ask questions like this of experts. Is it possible that this happened? And a lot of times, you know, people have to tell the truth.

Sure they do. Well, sure, it's possible. Is it likely? No. But is it possible? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of things that are possible, but a lot fewer things that are

probable or likely to have happened. Hurley didn't focus on the cartilage fracture, which the prosecution said could have only been caused by top. The windshield was one of the main people. of evidence at trial, different experts had different theories about what caused the glass fracture patterns. The defense's first witness was biomechanics expert Dr. Barry Bates, who testified, per EAU, my opinion to a reasonable scientifically and technical certainty was that the injuries in resulting death were caused by the penetration of the passenger windshield by a pipe.

which struck the passenger in the vehicle. Well, that's his opinion. You know, reasonable, scientific. And technical certainty? Yeah. It reminds me of the, the automotive expert from my cousin Vinny. Oh, yeah. He said something very similar.

Glass expert Mark Mashulam testified that there were three impact points on the windshield. The first impact point confirmed Todd's account of punching the windshield from the inside. after seeing the pipe coming towards them. The second impact point was the pipe going through the windshield. The third impact point was caused while Todd was pulling the pipe out while attempting to help Barber. So he's basically saying it appears like Todd probably did hit the windshield with his fist. Looks like a pipe struck the window. And it looks like Todd broke the windshield when he was trying to remove the pipe.

Oh, you'd have to say these experts, by and large, are kind of backing up his claim or his version of events. Masulam explained how a crack could run through the hole, where the pipe went through the windshield, saying, if you have a crack that crosses another crack, it's not out of the question that the first crack can actually cross across the second crap. That could happen. Okay. First of all, it's a lot of crack. Yeah. That's what I was thinking.

Or cracks, plural. So if we crack down on this, it's going to get cracking. Yeah. No, I don't know, I don't really understand what to make of that, though. You've got cracks that radiate. Right. I understand that from impacts of glass.

Now, windshield glass is always different, right, because of the way it's made. It's not like a glass pane in your house, has layers. But during this conversation that they're having testimony, I don't really hear them saying that this had anything to do with Barbara at this point. I think they're just saying this is what happened to the glass. Well, I think these experts are only talking about the glass because the prosecution was, you know, making so much out of the windshield. Yeah.

So I think the defense was having experts specifically trying to, to combat the prosecution's theory regarding it. Todd testified in his own defense. He explained that he was distraught during his interview with the police, which is why he gave differing statements about where they were going that morning. Todd explained, is quoted by 48 hours. When I watched that video, it's me in the picture, but it's not me talking. I'm not in the right state of mind talking in that.

I wasn't thinking of where I was going or what I was doing. I was thinking of Barr. And I get that. I think in a real tragic accident situation like that, anybody would be, you know, almost out of their mind. I mean, be traumatized. Be traumatized. Now, it still doesn't explain why Todd was heading away from the school.

And that is basically what he was trying to. do in the interview. Right. And then he later changed his story to something different, but it was all around, why were you headed away from the school? Yeah. Todd told the jury that he was actually going to see a man named Gerald Loging on the morning of the incident.

However, Loging said he never arranged for Todd to replace his winchew. The prosecutor asked Todd, did you change your story for trial? because you knew police had figured out your lives. Todd replied, no. But they did figure out the first two. They did. And what's he come up with at trial? Something again, a real person,

they can go talk to that person. And what's that guy say? Nope. No. I had no appointment. I did not arrange to have a windshield replaced. And he had a year to think about this. Yeah, that's kind of the sad part.

about it, right? This isn't right after the incident. Yeah. He could have really taken his time to come up with something. They could have. Prosecutors called on two Wisconsin crime lab experts. To dispute the defense's experts, DNA analyst Kevin Scott testified that Todd's DNA was found in his wife's fingernails, but he couldn't determine how it got there. But is that really that uncommon? Couldn't your DNA be underneath your wife's fingernails? I imagine it probably would be right now.

You know, they give you a quick scratch on the back or, you know, if you live with someone, chances are they, they're going to have your DNA on them somewhere, somehow. Sure.

But you know what the prosecution is trying to make out of it. She's got broken fingernails. Yeah. And his DNA is underneath her fingernails. And that came from the struggle, her trying to fight him all. Now, the state's expert disagreed on the order of the impacts to the windshield. Crime scene response coordinator Nick Stalking testified that it took at least two blows to the windshield.

To cause the center fracture, the center damage occurred before the fracture with the hole over the passenger seat. And the site over the passenger seat was hit at least once before the hole was produced. Well, that's not good for the defense because, that sounds like somebody hit the windshield ahead of time before the pipe. But it's also not out of the ordinary, right? You have prosecution experts and defense experts saying completely contradicting things. We see it in almost every trial. Yeah.

Stalky also investigated the glass and dirt, found on the passenger seat and in the dorsal. And said, per news eight, just the fact that the dirt and glass were there would indicate, that no one was seated in the seat. I believe because of the lack of glass in the mat pocket in dirt in the interior side of front door, I believe the door was open during deposition of the glass in the dirt. So what is he saying? I feel like he's saying it was all a setup.

Like she was already out of the car. Yeah. And maybe already dead. When the damage to the windshield of car, The defense questioned Stalky's knowledge of glass and how it breaks and asked how evidence like glass shards might have moved while the car was towed in the rain to the sheriff's department. Stalky said, anytime there's weather and you have an item exposed to that weather, there can be loss of evidence due to that.

And I feel like, you know, Gibbs, this was probably a very technical case. I mean, obviously, we're not going to go into every detail of the trial, but the trial. but the trial sounds to me like it was highly technical focused on, you know, the windshield and the impacts and, you know, the experts were really focused on that. Yeah, I'm thinking if I was on the jury, I'm thinking it just doesn't sound like it happened the way that Todd said it did. I would have a hard time believing what the defense is trying to put out there. Well, it comes down to which experts do you believe?

believe most. Now, do you factor in what Todd has said where he, you know, about why he was going away from the school? And to me, that probably helps people lean towards one side of the other more than probably anything else. I think so. Because if he's lying about that, which apparently he's been proven to have lied three times about, then is it likely that he's, you know, that he's, lying about what happened, you know, with this pipe. Yeah, I think it sets you up to start believing that he's lying to us. He's going to lie to us about everything. On December 15th, 2017, Todd Kendhammer was found guilty of murder.

Three months later, Todd was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years. His kids, Jessica and Jordan, were surprised when Barbara's cousin, Jerry Ann Buckner Wettstein spoke out against her and read a letter signed by other cousins, Jerry Ann said, Barbara found the courage that day to fight back. Therefore, we stand here today united with that same courage, asking you to sentence her killer to the maximum penalty possible. Jessica later told 48 hours that Jerry Ann was estranged from Barbara, adding she basically painted this scene that she just feels so bad about my mom in her big blue eyes,

even though her eyes are green. My mom hates her. Jerry Ann denied the claim that she was estranged from Barbara. But it does seem to me, Gibbs, that the kids were kind of siding with their dad. Yeah. Yeah. And not believing that he killed their mom, but that other members of the family did think he did it. But how could you, I don't think you would want to think your dad was lying to you. And even more so, you don't want to think that your dad is a killer. Yeah. Let alone a liar.

But why? Does it all go back to, you know, what Jessica and Jordan said? They were happy. They didn't seem to fight more than, you know, any other couple, every couple fights now and then. They were doing pretty well financially. What's the motive? And that's probably one thing. thing they were struggling with for sure.

Prosecutor Tim Grunkey also expressed harsh words for the family who sold Todd and Barbara's house and Jessica's house to pay Todd's legal bills. Grunkey said it sentencing, pardon my language, but to be perfectly frank, they need to get their head out of their ass. They need to start looking at this in reality. You don't hear a lot of people in court say, get your head out of your ass, but I mean, obviously he believes they're being snowed, right, by Todd. Sure.

And they're selling their houses. Todd's house, I understand. But his daughter's house to pay his legal fees? I mean, that's how strongly they must have believed in him. Grunkey later told 48 hours, I think I have to open their eyes in some way. I think they're giving him false hope. And I think he's dragging them down with him by using all their money to continue. in his lives. Todd and his children refused to accept the verdict and sought a retrial.

They hired attorney Jerry Buting to handle the appeal. Jerry Booting is well known for defending Stephen Avery, the subject of the Netflix show making a murderer. He is working alongside his wife, Attorney Kathleen Stilling. Buting told 48 hours, this was an accident. The idea that out of the blue, He would snap and kill his wife and then stage the accident. It just seems so implausible. All right, Jerry, now you're using my word. Plausible, implausible. Yeah.

And, you know, it kind of does, to be honest with you, because we haven't come up with any motive. Well, that's true. Or any reason why it's thought that Todd would want to kill Barber. Yeah, I mean, what could have happened that morning that went so bad? that they got into it in the car and he snapped and killed her. Yeah. Jordan added, if he wanted to kill Ma,

why the hell would he go through all the work and trouble to find a pipe, drive all the way out to the middle of a busy road? 48 hours also asked the prosecutor if Todd could have killed his wife and staged the crime scene in a short amount of time. Remember, we talked about it, right? A construction worker passed by the couple's car at 8 a.m. Todd called 911 at 805. Prosecutor Grunkey said, yes, he can do a lot of damage in two or three minutes.

So it's more time than people think. Well, and that is true, right? I mean, if you hit that little start button on your stopwatch. Because a lot of people carry around stopwatches. Yeah, well, use your magical iPhone. Right. Yeah, stop. But if you hit that button, yeah, not too many people.

carry that stop watching around like you do around your neck. Right. You know, with your track outfit on. But if you hit that button and you watch it, a minute is a long time. It really is. Well, if you're sitting there watching it, yeah. Well, it's longer than, seems longer. I would say it's not longer than it would be if you didn't watch it.

But yeah, it probably seems longer. But we don't know, right? She could have been dead before 8 o'clock. Oh, absolutely. because the construction worker doesn't see either one of them. No. So he doesn't know what happened prior to passing the car. Right.

He just knows the car is there. Nobody's in it. But he also says there's no damage. Yeah. So between 8 and 805, it's thought that, okay, what? He took this pipe and, you know, made the holes in the windshield. She wasn't in the car. And then he later brings her, puts her back in the passenger.

your seat to kind of fit his narrative. In 2021, Todd was granted an evidentiary hearing before his trial judge. He argued ineffective assistance of counsel and claimed there was new evidence in his case. The first day of the hearing was spent questioning Todd's trial attorneys and the decisions made surrounding the trial. The defense called on forensic pathologist Dr. Shaku Tees, who viewed Barbara's medical records and autopsy photos, Dr. Tees believes Barbara died due to cranial cerebral injuries

due to a vehicular accident. Dr. Tees didn't observe anything on Barbara's body that was consistent with her having been beaten with fists or evidence that she had been in a fight. She also saw no injuries suggestive of strangulation and the injury to Barbara's cryoid cartilage could be due her hitting the large travel mug in the car. The defense theorized that the injuries to the back of Barbara's head occurred because she ducked as the pipe came through the windshield and it grazed the back of her head, which to me is a strange theory because you would think she's killed by the pipe hitting her directly, not grazing the top back of her head.

Yeah, but I think they're saying because of the force of her bending of over to duck down. She hits her head on the travel mug. Hits her throat on the travel mug. That's what kills her. And then the pipe raises her on the back. Yeah. Okay.

I get you. I understand what you're saying. Dr. T's also expressed the belief that some of Barbara's injuries came from the harvesting of her organs after she died. So she must have been an organ donor. The defense also presented. reenactment videos produced by investigators.

During the initial investigation, police attempted to reconstruct Todd's story. By dropping a similar pipe off the back of a truck, the videos show the pipe bouncing off the ground. Once out of the four times it was dropped, these videos were not presented in court until the 2021 evidentiary hearing. Todd's original defense didn't share the test videos because they thought it was inconclusive,

and the prosecution didn't think they needed to show it. Prosecutor said at trial that several videos were made of a pipe falling off a truck which showed the unlikelyhood of Todd's story. Todd's new defense believes the video should have been played at trial because it would have supported his statement. Well, maybe it would have been beneficial. But, you know, the ineffective assistance of counsel argument,

it's always an interesting one because, you know, you can second guess a lot of decisions that are made. You know, the defense attorney has a reason why they did or didn't do something. They thought it was inconclusive. Forensic crime scene analyst Alexander or Jason.

Not to be confused with Jason Alexander. Which some people might do. Testified that the videos actually show it was possible that a pipe could have fallen off a truck and gone through the windshield, the way Todd described. If the investigators performed the test enough times, it would show what happened as Todd described it.

Jason showed frames of the test video that showed the pipe at an angle that could have impaled the vehicle. Jason also spoke about other instances around the U.S. where pipes have impaled the windshields of vehicles traveling down the highway. Well, it sounds like they're really standing behind that the video should have been shown

because it would have been helpful to the jury. Yeah, because it's all part of their, you know, original defense trial was ineffective. The court heard from Andrew Sturr, an employee of Madeary drilling, a well drilling company that had a crew working in the West Salem area on the day of the accident. Sturr wasn't able to say that the crew was on the same stretch of road where the accident happened at the time it occurred. Local resident Steve Petranick,

testified that he'd seen scrap metal trucks traveling down county road in the past usually overloaded with objects that weren't always securely tied down however he wasn't home on the morning of the accident all right you're grasping yeah yeah i see some trucks sometimes with stuff in them and they're not always secured but i have no knowledge about this case because i wasn't even home that day yeah it's pretty pretty vague dr geoffrey loftis a professor of psychology testified that Todd's memories of the incident were influenced by others, including authorities. Additionally, his struggle to remember details can be explained by the trauma from the accident. And I get that.

You know, we kind of touched on it a little bit. Struggling to remember details, I understand. Completely making up false stories seems a little bit of a bridge too far to blame on trauma. Yeah. this very specific story that turns out not to be true in any way. Yeah. I mean, he did tell multiple lies.

Well, and then that's just the first one where you would say, okay, he's just experienced this traumatic vent. What about the later one? And then what about the one at trial? After he had a year to think about it. Yes.

He's still coming up with windshield repair stories that are proven to be false. In May 2020, A judge denied Todd's motion for a retrial. In June 2024, the Court of Appeals of Wisconsin also rejected Todd's motion for a retrial. They're pretty hard. They're sticking too. They're not going to allow it. Well, which, you know, I think most of the time it's a high hurdle, right, to get a retrial.

A lot of people argue an effective assistance of counsel. But I think the percentage of the time that someone is actually grand a retrial due to that argument is pretty low. Most recently in October 24, the Wisconsin Supreme Court denied a review of Todd's conviction. So, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, for me, it's a, it's a very strange case. You know, on the one hand, you have Todd's children and some other family, members who believe in his innocence. Right. I mean, heck, they were selling houses to pay for his legal defense.

They argue that he was wrongfully convicted, that he was a loving husband who would never harm his wife, and that Barbara's death was a tragic accident. While prosecutors couldn't produce a clear motive, they believed Todd's story didn't add up. And the evidence from the windshield and Barbara's autopsy supports Todd's conviction. You know, I think it's tough. I can see the family's point of view. I don't think what Todd is convicted of doing is the guy they knew or the guy they know. And I think that's probably, and this happens quite a bit, it's why they're so firmly in his camp.

Hey, known this guy our whole lives. Right. He wouldn't do this. You know, then you have the videos that kind of show that it could have happened that way. I think, but you have the missing pieces, right? where's the truck that went down the road why was his car caught the other truck was never caught on the video exactly why was the car at eight o'clock not damaged when it was seen by the passerby and then the stories why he was going away from the school that that's a it's a problem

yeah i think it's a big problem for a jury because things don't seem to add up but on the other hand why would he do this i mean i think that's a big problem for a jury because things don't seem to add up but on the other hand why would he do this. I mean, I think that's the, the struggle. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like you said, there is no motive. I mean, all that we know of. That we know of. One of that I can think of is something happened during that morning. Maybe it was when they went to that, the other house where they were house sitting. Yeah. Maybe an argument started. And like sometimes arguments can cause is that you go too far. And someone snaps. Someone snaps. It could. But there's no way to know what the argument would have been about or, you know, is there something deeper that we don't know about? Did Barbara find

something out about Todd that just hasn't been revealed? Yeah, that you're never going to find out. Because he doesn't want to know. And she's not here to tell you. Or did he not do this at all? Or that's another possibility, right? The family's staying pretty hard by that, right? He didn't do it. it and we're standing by him and um now with with everything that we've talked about if i had to lean one way or the other i'm leaning towards the fact that he did it just based on the the limited evidence that we had yeah things we know about and that's why the jury did the same thing yeah but again in the back of your mind it is tough because you want to know why in the world he would do this And you just, you just don't have anything.

Yeah. So I think it's always tough in a case. But, you know, this is a case that we will probably see in the news as time moves on. You know, if Todd continues to appeal, maybe at some point there is something that comes out where he does get a retrial or something like that. I don't know. It's a definitely a different type of case. It is. because it's not as slam dunkish as many are.

There are quite a few unanswered questions. But that's it for our episode on Todd Kandhammer. We got a voicemail gives you and check that out. Let's hear it. Hi, it's Annie from Pittsburgh. I have been listening for like two years on and off. And I'm just, I'm not caught up at all. but I just got to the episode about Harry Thaw,

and my grandpa is actually related to him, and we live in Pittsburgh. So I just thought I share that. I love the show so much. I'm team Mike. And yeah, thanks so much for what you guys do. Keep your own time taking.

Bye. All right. Awesome. From Pittsburgh, a place that Gibby and I have been many, many times. Absolutely. It had a few Pittsburgh salads,

which come with fries on top of it, which I didn't know when I ordered it the first time. Well, I spent a week there one night. Yeah. Now, you know, when we get these types of voicemails or I get a bunch of emails,

it's surprising how many people have a connection with somebody who, you know, we talk about on the podcast. Right. It could be that they're related. Sometimes people write in about a very scary

experience they had with a serial killer. They sure do. Before they knew that you know, this person was a killer. Yeah, we've got people related to the killer, to the victims. Yeah. Or they're just from that small town where something happened. Yeah. And they remember it or

they know of the aftermath of it. So. All very, uh, freaky. Yeah. No doubt. Well, yeah, no mail bag this week. So that's it. for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.