True Crime All The Time - Tracey Richter

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

In December 2001, Tracey Richter shot and killed 20-year-old Dustin Wehde. What followed was an investigation into what exactly happened that fateful night. Just exactly who was Tracey Richter and, did she act in self-defense or did she murder Dustin in a failed plan to frame her ex-husband John.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Tracey Richter and what a jury ultimately decided was the murder of Dustin Whede. Tracey had been married twice but harbored a lot of bad feelings toward her first husband John PItman. A notebook found in Dustin's handwriting with the initials JP was one of the keys to this fascinating case.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 224 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on? What's happening, man? I'm doing great. Are you? I am ready to jump into what I think will be a very, very good episode. It will be. Before we do that, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. Okay. We had Natasha Zenshu. What's going on, Natasha? Area Hughes Bebling jumped out at our highest level. Well, thanks. Bebebling. With a shout out to her cousin, Hannah Hughes. Well, thank you, Hannah.

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very cool. If we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Julia Brindle. Well, thank you, Julia. So a lot of new support. We appreciate that. We appreciate the continued support. We had some great PayPal donations as well from Lillian Keller. Hey, Lillian. Samantha. Samantha. Samantha. Samantha. John Hutt gave a sizable donation. Hood, hood, hood. And we had Serena Gala. So thanks to all of you as well. Gibbs, right now we have an episode out. on true crime all the time unsolved. We're talking about the 2005 murder of Nona Carol Dirksmire, headed down to Russellville, Arkansas.

Yeah. Very interesting case that I think people will enjoy hearing about the facts, the suspects. I mean, you know, Nona was a beauty pageant contestant. Right. 19 year old college student, just starting to make her way through life.

Yep. And so definitely check. that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm excited. We are talking about Tracy Richter. And this is an interesting episode. It's a little different episode. You know, to outsiders, I think Tracy seemed like an ordinary mother and wife. But what makes her somewhat unique is her manipulative personality. She had an extreme temper. she also had a propensity for violent acts. In an elaborate series of events spanning multiple years, two marriages, and one really

horrible night in December, Tracy Richter swept up a lot of people into her chaotic life. She shot and killed 20-year-old Dustin Wheatie after he allegedly broke into her home. The reason why I say this episode is a little different. There are going to be people. at the conclusion of this that we'll be asking themselves the question. Is Tracy Richter an innocent person? Did she kill Dustin Weedy in self-defense?

Or is she the cunning and manipulative person that the prosecution made her out to be? I think people will have to decide that at the end of the episode. Well, it's going to be interesting, and that's what we're going to dive into right now. In 1987, Tracy Richter met her future husband, John Pittman, at the University of Northwestern in Chicago. John was a medical student and Tracy was studying to be a radiographer. Pretty good school, Northwestern. Really good school. These were two really good looking people, Gibbs.

I mean, you know, if you see pictures, you see everything that people have written about or said about these people, they were a good looking couple. Yeah, they were. And I think they were instantly drawn to each other in an interview with fatal vows. John described Tracy as vivacious, but also said that she was very good at reading people. She always told you what you wanted to hear. And at times, he said she seemed too perfect. And I get that. I think there are people like that.

It's like, no matter what the situation is, they know exactly what to say. Kind of manipulative. And I think there are people that can use that skill for good, but they can also use it for doing some very bad thing. Well, they sure can. And she was a really smart woman too. Yeah, she was. She was very intelligent. And so was John, for that matter.

I've seen estimates of her IQ to be in the 140s. Yeah. I think that goes along with the territory. Very intelligent enables some people to be highly manipulative. It sure does. And also to be able to say the right thing to know what people are looking for. It kind of all plays into it. Tracy and John got married.

And then in 1989, they moved to Denver, Colorado. John was in his residency. And it was very demanding. I mean, he was working close to 120 hours a week, Gibbs. Isn't that funny how they put those individuals through all that where they just, it's nonstop work. you're there hours and hours. And these are the people that have to save your life. Yeah, I read that and I thought, well, that doesn't even seem possible. I mean, there's only so many hours in a week. 120 is almost, you know, right up there, 24 times seven is what?

Beep-bo, be-bo, bo, bo, boop. A lot. 168. So he's getting 48 hours off a week. So that's a lot of sleeping in between shifts. Yeah, very brutal. Yeah. And obviously you and I haven't gone through that. But I've heard. horror stories. I have some friends that are doctors and and I know it's a really rough time. So when you're in that kind of situation, pretty tough to be home. You're not going to be when you only get that many hours off. Yeah, not good for a relationship. No, it's not good for a relationship. Tracy's mother, Anna Richter, said that when John was home, he was pretty distant. He wasn't affectionate. And he didn't seem attached to their son Bert, who was born in 1990. You mentioned it. Not good for a marriage, you know, about two years in. I think things started, you know, getting rocky.

Tracy had career problems. It was almost as if she'd start a lot of different jobs and then quit very suddenly, often making up stories about the reasons why. Right. She was quitting. And then I think another issue was that Tracy was unhappy being a housewife. So she would start jobs, quit. She would be at home at times, not happy with that. Didn't like that either. Didn't like that. She started adopting lots of pets.

But apparently she didn't take care of them. She was good at the adopting part. She got them to her place. Yes. But didn't know how to take care of them after that. Or didn't want to. Yeah. Or the, you know, kind of the sheen had worn off after she got them home.

That'd be frustrating. And I think it was very frustrating to John. And then at one point in their marriage, John's parents found out that someone stole a couple of their credit cards and racked up thousands of dollars on them. Okay. Not something that anybody wants to find out. And then I think even more disturbing, you know, once they started investigating it, they learned it was trace. That makes it even worse. Yeah.

Because it's that whole, you should be able to trust your family circle. Your inner circle. Yeah. Going back to De Niro in Meet the Fokker's. Exactly right. If you're inside the circle, you got to be trustworthy. You have to. Well, if you're stealing your in-law's credit cards and racking up charges, it's not going

to fly. Now, she denied it. And in fact, she even got angry at them for accusing her of doing that. Well, that's one way to get people off you is just go upset and mad and what do you mean you're accusing me? I never took, did this or did that act just total denial. Is that why you get mad at me so often? I didn't do it.

Wasn't me. To try to throw me off the track. Exactly. So like I said, the marriage hit, you know, a rocky patch. Tracy and John started to argue frequently. And, you know, according to John, Tracy has. had an explosive temper. And he's talked about a particular incident where she got really angry over something small.

And I think it had something to do with the fact that he didn't put his shoes up. Well, that happens in a lot of homes, I believe. It happens here. And I think I've talked about it before. My wife does not like it. I can see why. I've walked into this house and I'm like, there's like a dozen pair of shoes. Yeah, there is often, no, not mine.

Not all mine. No. But my wife would never do what Tracy did because apparently she pulled a gun on John saying, you're never going to leave this house alive. I mean, this is over a pair of shoes. Man. If you believe, you know, what he's saying. That's a rough start.

So he ran out of the house as anybody should if they, if their wife pulls a gun on them or their husband pulls a gun on them. And as he's running out of the house, he hears the gun go off. So she's, she's firing off around. Good thing. She had a bad aim. About over these shoes. Tracy, you know, made it to the front door. And I think very quickly, she was apologetic. She was saying, well, you know, I'm sorry. I didn't, I shouldn't have done that. I didn't mean to do that. But John called the police. And when confronted, Tracy said,

you know, I was never going to shoot him. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to kill myself. And she also said she didn't think the gun was loaded. Interesting thing to say to the police. Well, it is. And it almost, those two statements kind of fly in the face of each other. They do. Right. So I intended to try to harm myself, but I didn't think the gun was loaded.

So how was I going to harm myself? Exactly. Tracy was charged with discharging a weapon. And she had to go to six months of counseling. The story is what it is. It's, you know, is it amusing maybe a little bit? I think because nobody got hurt. Right.

And based on the fact that it was over a pair of shoes not being put in the right place, I think what it does is it provides a glimpse into Tracy's anger. And that's going to be a big part of this episode. Clearly, she flew off the handle that quick over the shoes. So I can't imagine what she would do if it was something more serious. No, but I think if you're the person living with her, you got to be a little concerned about what could be next. Sometime after this incident, John got a job in Chicago and the family prepared to move. They sold their house and they set about playing to ship their pets to Chicago with them.

Remember, they have all these pets. Right. But one day Tracy called John and told him that the pets were gone. And apparently she had this elaborate story about how she gave the dogs to a company that was going to ship them over. but it turned out to be a secret lab that was going to use them for experiments. Whoa. And ultimately, I'm not really sure what happened to the dogs. I know they didn't make the trip to Chicago.

I think what's fascinating is you're really getting into some storytelling here, some fabrication, elaborate. Right. Conspiracy theory type, you know, stuff. And I think it was this and other things that made John finally realize that, you know, something's just not right with Tracy. So he ended up going to a private investigator, told him what Tracy had said happened to the animals.

The private investigator told him, you know what, this is a problem. And after hearing about some of the other incidents in the marriage, I think the PI even got pretty concerned. One thing John told him was that Tracy had asked him multiple times to increase his life insurance policy. Well, she did more, she was really persistent about it. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't like, hey, maybe I think we should do this. It was like, you need to do this. Right. Is the way that I understood it. Now, I think you can look at that a couple of different ways, right? This guy is probably by this point making or getting ready to make a pretty good amount of money. Sure.

Yeah. As a doctor. Make sure you have that covered. And you want to be able to replace that income. I mean, that's what life insurance is for. But everybody listening to true crime is probably thinking, okay. But that also oftentimes means somebody might be planning something against you. Certainly some motive there.

Well, there can be if you're talking about a lot of money. That's the way that the. private investigator looked at it, right? This is an issue. You need to be careful. Your life might be in danger. So in 1992, John hired another private investigator to try to figure this out. Was his wife planning to kill him or have him killed? This guy, Glenn gave him a rundown of what he believed Tracy's plans were. He thought she would try to get him alone somewhere private. She wouldn't kill him herself, but she'd hire someone else to do it. I think if you hear that from someone Gibbs about your wife, about the woman that you love, about the mother of your child,

it's going to hit pretty hard. Really hard. Now, a lot of people might say, oh, that's my wife. There's no way she would ever do that. Unless they listen to this podcast. And then they're probably more suspicious than most. Yeah. But even with all of this information. And, again, I don't know what type of facts this PI had that Tracy had some nefarious plans. But even with all of this, John would not divorce Tracy. And they continued to plan this move to Chicago, but John did not stop the PI surveillance of Tracy. So one day Tracy called John and asked him to meet her at the apartment.

and then they were going to go to dinner together. As soon as John got off the phone with Tracy, his PI Glenn called him and asked if he and Tracy had just spoken on the phone. The PI was watching her. She was in her car. She was on the phone. He said she was driving east at a very fast clip. Their apartment was in the opposite direction.

So the PI warned John not to go. And he said, you know, if I was you, I'd get to a. a public place quickly. So, I mean, I don't think there's any doubt Gibbs. This PI, whether right or wrong. Yeah. He was very adamant that this woman was planning something deadly. Well, he had real concerns.

He did. Tracy called John again and told him she was at the apartment. She asked him where he was. I think, you know, in the end, John never went to the apartment. He told her that he wasn't. coming and to this day, he has no idea whether or not Tracy had a hitman waiting for him in the apartment or if she planned to do something, you know, herself. I think what is troubling is that during the PI's investigation, he found out that Tracy was talking to some suspicious

men. I think in total, she spent seven nights with four different men. Wow. But this wasn't sexual. These weren't affairs. The P.I. said he didn't know exactly what was going on, but he thought it was something criminal. All of these men had false identities. They were driving vehicles registered to other people. I mean, this is some real Jason-born type shit we're talking. It's really scary, man. And I think it was this information, right? For John, hey, your wife is out with a bunch of different men. I don't know what she's doing. I don't think she's sleeping with these men. She might be plotting.

She might be doing something else. But I think for John, that was it. You know, this is 1993 by this point. Yeah. He was pretty fearful for his life. He's like, I got to get out of here, man. And he did. He moved out.

He left his son and Tracy. And Tracy begged John to take her back, but he refused. Their divorce was finalized in 1997. So, I mean, I think when you look back over this marriage, obviously it produced a son, but it was rocky. And there was a lot of stuff going on. We don't have all the facts. Right. But, you know, just the fact that you're hiring PIs to tell your wife and, and these private investigators are giving you this information that, hey, something is going on.

You should be fearful for your life. It's not a good marriage. man. No. If you have to worry about coming home and being murdered, probably time to end the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maybe look for somebody else. Yeah. Maybe start up an internet dating profile. Yeah. Yeah. Something. Start the ball rolling at least and get the heck out of Dodge. For sure.

In 1996, Tracy began an internet romance with a guy named Michael Roberts, who was an Australian entrepreneur. Michael did an interview for the show Fatal Vows. And he said that what convinced him to begin a relationship with Tracy was number one, how beautiful she was. And he said he was really taken with her intelligence, how articulate she was and that she seemed to be so popular with those around her. Tracy visited Michael in Australia.

She was there for about 19 days. and Michael proposed to her just before she went back to the States. The two got married and a few months later Michael moved to the U.S. And they ended up having two children together, a son named Noah and a daughter named Mason. Well, that's a short period of time to propose. Yeah, I don't know how long they had been talking on the internet, but, you know, to only have known someone in person for 19 days, that's a short amount of time. to pop the question.

I also think maybe it gives you some insight on how taken this man, Michael, was with Tracy. And maybe some insight on how she was able to manipulate people, show them what they wanted to see, tell them what they wanted to hear. And boom, you've got a marriage proposal. That's right. And flip on them later. And then within just a few months, like I said, he's moving to the United States. So it's a lot in a short amount of time. Hey, T-Cat fans, you've heard me talk about getting wrapped up in a lot of things.

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It helps me de-stress between all of the research into some of the dark things that we talk about. I mean, flat out, it's just fun, and I love the increasingly challenging puzzles. With Best Feens, there's something new today, tomorrow, and every day after that, collect tons of cute characters. with Best Fiends, the fun never ends. Download Best Fiends free today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the R. Best Fiends. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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That's Better H-E-LP and join the over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. For true crime all the time, listeners, you'll get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash T-Cat. Michael knew about her troubled first marriage because Tracy was all the time going on these rants about John because at the time they were fighting for custody of their son Bert. Tracy called John a narcissist who only cared about money and power. And this was not an easy custody battle.

It got to be very contentious. John didn't follow visitation guidelines. And at one point, kidnapped Bert. That will heat things up. Yeah. Doesn't make it good for your bid usually in trying to get custody. Tracy accused him of having multiple affairs during their marriage, even accused him of molesting their son Bert.

Yeah. She's not holding back punches. No. And this is something that we're going to find out about Tracy, you know, during this episode is that she doesn't pull any punches. And she was not above making things up to make other people look better. Again, I have no idea about these accusations of molestation, but there are going to be other things that will turn out not to be true.

Right. John has said that people put flyers on his car, on other cars, accusing him of being a child molester. Well, that can ruin your reputation really quick. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're a surgeon, a doctor. I mean, if you're anything, really. but the more high profile you are, the higher level job you have, who's going to want to go see

a doctor who is being touted as being a child molester? Right. Now, if it's not true, it's a shame. You know, if it's true, you get what you deserve. But if it's not true, you'd just ruin a man's career. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. If it's true, that's what you get. But, you know, when you look at it gives, how easy is it really to ruin someone's reputation?

It's not that hard. No, not in today's world, especially. Especially in today's world with social media and, and you can put something out there that's not true. And it gets all the eyes. It gets all the buzz. Well, when it comes out three months later that it's not true, there's something else that's getting all the buzz. Yep. And nobody sees that part.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's very sad. I think that's something that we need to do. do a much better job of is vetting out some of these things before people's lives get ruined, get destroyed. Yeah. But again, if they've done it and it's a heinous act like you were saying, that's what they deserve. Sure it is. I'm fine with that. So I think one of the important things is that Tracy is feeding all of this information to her new husband, Michael. He's taking it all in. Well, who's he going to believe? Well, of course. He's going to believe. Well, of course, he's going to

going to believe her. Yeah. This is his wife. So he's going to side with her on everything. Well, he'll want to protect her. And, and I think he did a good job of that. You know, he, he spent his time, his money, resources to protect Tracy and Bert. At the same time that she's going through this custody battle with John, Tracy was trying to sue her dentist, Dr. Lespeza. She alleged that he drugged and sexually assaulted her during a visit. So she was suing him, but she never filed a police report, which her husband Michael said he later found to be suspicious. It's a little strange. It is strange. She also waited several months to tell Michael that this incident occurred. And I think he was troubled by that as well. I don't know if that's so strange. I know sometimes you get to work your

way through that. Yeah, I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, right? It can't be easy to have to sit down with a spouse and say that you were sexually assaulted, you were violated. That's not an easy conversation to have. But I think from Michael's viewpoint, and maybe this came out later on after he learned of other things, I think he felt upset. He felt a little betrayed that she kept it from him for such a long period of time. But he stayed with Tracy. He supported her, but he didn't take long Gibbs for her to turn on Michael. She started to say that he was neglectful.

He was controlling. According to Tracy's mother, Anna, Tracy would often visit her because she felt lonely. And Michael would call at her house and harass Tracy about coming home. Now, Michael disagrees with all of this. and his contention is that Tracy has a way of always making herself into the victim. He said that. Well, we all have somebody in our lives that tend to be that person. Yeah, there are some people that do that.

I don't know if everybody has a person in their lives, but maybe they do. Yeah. But there are some people that are true victims. There are a lot of people that are true victims. And then there are people that all. always view themselves as a victim. Right. Whether they've been victimized or not.

I'll, I'll say that. I think if you asked Michael, he would say Tracy was the latter. He also began to suspect that she was cheating on him because apparently she told Michael that she was a model for this black velvet whiskey. And so she had to travel, right, to go on these modeling gigs. Well, she's probably making some good money then. Yeah, you would think so. So I think the problem that Michael had was that there was no paychecks for these modeling gigs.

This is like you get a free case of whiskey or something? Well, I think he thought it was strange and probably led to him believing that she was stepping out on him, that these were all fabrications. She's not really going on these modeling gigs. I had that same problem when I used to do that modeling for those crochet underwear. They were supposed to pay me, but I didn't read the contract very well. and it was just unlimited supply of crochet briefs. Was the contract in crochet as well? And that's why you had such a hard time reading the fine print.

I couldn't knit my way through it. But even though Michael suspected all these things, he did not want to give up on the marriage. So they decided to move to early Iowa to kind of restart things to maybe try to rekindle it. Michael was doing pretty well in his business. They seemed fairly happy. And I think, according to Michael, he was happy to get away from what he called unhealthy influences. Mona Wheatie was a local real estate agent and one of their neighbors in Iowa. She has described Tracy and Michael as pleasant, outgoing and considerate. She worked for Michael at his internet business. But she also said that immediately she noticed the tension between Tracy and Michael.

I think the other thing she found very odd was that they each gossiped about the other. It's very strange. At work. So yeah, I mean, you know, gossiping about your husband or your wife and they're both doing it at the same time. To your employees. Yeah, to the people that you work with, it's not going to come off as, ooh, well, you guys really got something there.

Right. Better hold on to that. Michael offered Mona's 20-year-old son, Dustin, a job. Dustin was unemployed. He'd been in some trouble recently. So I think Michael offered to kind of take him under his wing, give him some guidance, some direction. Getting back on track.

Yeah. I think that's what he was trying to do. So they made this move to early because they thought this was going to be a new start. It didn't turn out that way. Tracy discovered that Michael had been involved in a bad business deal that lost him a bunch of money. She went into a rage shouting at Michael in the business. Well, Mona was there. So he sent Mona home for the day.

And, you know, she probably ran out the door, not wanting to be involved in that. She probably said, no problem. See you. Yeah. I mean, who wants to stand there between a husband and wife who are involved in a shouting match? Right. It got so bad that at one point Tracy kicked through the drywall. And apparently this place that she was kicking, it was very close to an electric heater.

So Michael put his arms around her, tried to get her under control. Now, he said he was worried that she would electrocute herself. But they kind of got into a little scrap. Eventually later, police showed up at the house. They pulled their guns on Michael and arrested him. Well, she probably said he threw me to the floor, did this, did that. Yeah, and again, I don't have all the details of exactly what happened. So I don't want to speculate too much.

Sure. Very rarely do you have all the details, which you have is one side says this and one side says something else. Well, somewhere in the middle of that is the truth. Right. The problem is we don't always know the truth. And the police are going to take somebody out of that equation. And I think Gibbs more often than not, they're going to take the mail. I think that's been proven out over time because I think, number one, males are most often

the perpetrators of domestic violence against women. It's not that women can't perpetrate domestic violence against men. It just, I think, statistically, is most often perpetrated by men. So the male usually gets taken out of the house, I believe is how that happens. Well, Tracy's got a lot of going on. Yeah, she's got all of this going on with Michael. She's still going through this custody battle for Bert with John, her first husband. At some point, Tracy made a second abuse allegation against John Pittman.

I don't think that win anywhere, but the court also learned about the domestic issues between Tracy and Michael. Then in December 2001, Mona was discussing a potential. job for Dustin with Tracy. Tracy wanted him to make copies and told Mona to send him over in the next couple of days. I don't think Mona thought anything about it, right? Here's a job. Great. Let's get him on it. But on December 13th, 2001, Mona received a call from her nephew. He told her something terrible happened at her friend's house down the street. Someone died. But at the time, he didn't know who it was. At first, Mona thought, well, maybe Michael shot Tracy or Tracy shot Michael. Could go either way.

Well, and I think that tells you in Mona's mind, having seen these two in action, that she did think it could go either way. But then Mona's husband told her that he saw Dustin's car at the Roberts home. When she arrived at the crime scene, the police wouldn't let her see Dustin. and they told her to go home. Mona asked him, is my son here? They said, yes. She asked, is he dead?

And they told her yes. But they weren't real sincere about it. No, I don't think that she thought they were very caring in that respect, knowing that a young man is dead and his mother's here. She thought they were pretty callous about it. So Tracy was interviewed by police. And she said that on the night of the night of the day, the 13th, she was home alone. Michael was on a business trip. Tracy told the police she heard someone

coming up to stairs. She was holding one of her children and she immediately turned to open a bedroom door. She handed the baby to Bert and then she was yanked back by her hair. She fought. She managed to close the door to protect her children. It was two men. They strangled her with panty hose until she was unconscious, Tracy eventually woke up and pushed one of them. They hit the wall and she ran away. She got to the bedroom, got a gun from under the bed, and began shooting in the direction of these two men. She heard footsteps running down the stairs and then later police arrived to find Dustin dead in a pool of his own blood. What I thought was very interesting about the findings was that police determine Dustin was shot nine

times with two different handguns. Well, that's out of the ordinary. Yeah, I don't think you don't hear about that much, right? You shoot somebody X number of times. You go and get a different gun and then you shoot them more. You know, I've seen conflicting reports that she grabbed one gun fired and then she was able to get to a safe, open that, get another gun. But nine times is a lot. That's a lot of shots. It is. To hit one person.

Now, I could see you firing nine times, but to actually hit someone nine times with two different guns, that is a very strange kind of fact. And I think it's going to come into play a little bit. Sure. Yeah. So what we have, Gibbs, is Dustin Wheatie. killed inside Tracy and Michael's home. At one point,

Michael came home to find this out. He's probably just shaking his head, man. Going, what else? What else can happen in my life at this point? Mona was devastated. It was her son. Yeah.

She launched her own investigation. She noticed that Dustin's car was parked right in front of the house. And it was parked under a security light. Dustin didn't have. have any weapons on him. There were no signs of forced entry. You didn't wear a mask, didn't have gloves on. Nope. Nothing to indicate that he was planning a robbery. So, you know, I think at this point, police are very confused by Tracy's story and the facts as they were able to figure them out. I don't think Mona was that confused. I think in her heart, she believed that her son was murder.

she thought maybe he might have walked in on a robbery or on a meeting between Tracy and someone. Sure. Yeah. Maybe a fight between Michael and Tracy. Maybe he wasn't gone. Maybe he was at the house. But bottom line, he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. And was killed. Trent Valeda, the DCI special agent who worked this case, couldn't find a motive.

He also couldn't find any signs of things happen. the way that Tracy said they did. That's usually a problem. He learned that Dustin didn't have any friends who would have helped him break into the home. But I think Gibbs, over time, everyone began to develop their own theories. Sort of have multiple theories out there. Yeah. About what happened that night. Michael believed that Dr. Lispisa was involved in the robbery. Three days before the shooting, they were in Chicago, ready to go to trial for this sexual assault. So he told police to look for a Chicago license plate. I get that theory.

You've accused a doctor of sexual assault. Okay. Is he going to want to eliminate the person that has made this allegation against him right before this thing goes to trial? Potentially. Potentially. You could see where a husband might think that. Tracy's mom, Anna Richter, believed that Michael was involved. You know, after the shooting happened, she described him as cold, said that he had this very

strange look in his eyes. And she said he never really asked a lot of questions about what happened that night. And he had those eyes again. Those eyes. These eyes. And then he had Tracy who said it was her ex-husband John Pittman who orchestrated the whole thing. When her husband Michael tried to suggest that it was Dr. Lispisa, she shot him down every time and said, nope, I know it was John.

So Tracy thinks it's John. Michael thinks it's the doctor and Tracy's mom thinks it's Michael. Yeah. So everybody's pointing the finger at somebody. Yeah. At the crime scene, police found a key piece of evidence. It was a pink notebook inside Dustin's car. And it was his notebook and it had notes about John's involvement.

He wrote that he was hired as a hitman by a man named JP. And in the notebook it said, JP wants me to get or force his ex TR to kill her son Bert and then commit suicide. And if that plan fails, plan B is to make it appear as though TR had committed the murder of her son and then committed suicide. So it's not too hard to figure out, right? J.P. John Pittman. Right. T.R. Tracy Roberts. Well, that's going to put John as a suspect. Very damaging towards John Pittman. But even with this evidence, the DCI special agent had his doubts. Because I think from

his point of view, Gibbs, he couldn't figure out, okay, how did John even know this Dustin Wheatie kid and how could you make such an ask of somebody you didn't even know? That's a huge ask, right? Hey, don't really know you, but here's what I want you to do. I want you to kill my son and my ex. Yeah, it's a stretch when you think about the fact that, okay, they're not in the same town. They don't live in the same place. How is John Pittman going to meet Dustin Wheatie?

And then to your point, ask him to do something that you'd have a hard time asking your most treasured confidant in secret, let alone some guy you just met or knew very little about. Detectives asked Mona if Dustin journaled. And she said no. She said, Dustin hated writing. They couldn't even ever get him to do his schoolwork. So according to her, why would he journal? of his own free will makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, there are people that keep journals.

A lot of people do. Yeah, I got a lot of journals. You do. And if they're ever found, they will be used as evidence in a court of law. But I do think this makes some sense when you look at Dustin. And I think the police thought that too. And they began to shift their theory from thinking that John had enlisted Dustin's help to Tracy had forced Dustin to write the journal in an elaborate plot to frame John.

But police kept the journal under wraps because what they wanted was someone to come forward and talk about it voluntarily, right? They didn't want it out there and then have someone come in and talk about it who just heard it on the news or read it in the paper. But still, this had to be rough for everybody involved. Oh, it was. And I think on the weedy family in particular, to that fact on Thanksgiving Day 2002, Dustin's father, Brett, took his own life at Dustin's grave.

It says you how hard that hit him. Yeah, he took it very hard. So we're a couple years on, right, from this shooting. Police haven't solved it. Michael and Tracy are still married, but their marriage is continuing to crumble. It's definitely not a happy marriage. No. In late 2003 into early 2004, Michael caught Tracy having an affair.

And in March 2004, Michael claimed Tracy tried to kill him. He said that for weeks she had drug him with sedatives. I guess to the point Gibbs were a couple of times he fell asleep inside his car in the garage. And she would turn the car on while he was asleep. Yeah. Trying to kill him with carbon monoxide. But even with all of this. Michael had a hard time leaving the marriage.

And that's kind of hard to believe. Okay. Can you get over an affair? Can you work through that? I think couples do all the time. Can you work through the fact that your spouse is drugging you repeatedly and trying to poison you with carbon monoxide while you're drugged inside the garage? No.

No. There's no rebound from that. I don't think couples therapy is going to fix that. If you have to keep wondering, if I eat this, am I going to die later? I know. It's just, how can you stay with someone who you know is trying to murder you? Yeah, it's like, no one I don't have to worry about you sleeping with the Walmart greeter or whoever. Okay, very specific, but I just throwing it out there.

We'll go with it. Now on top of that, I got to worry about what's in my weaties, what's in my salami sandwiching made me, what's in my water. What's in this gatorade? What's in this gatorade? Yeah. Yeah. So he had trouble leaving Tracy.

I think he concocted excuses for her. But he did go to police and say, I think my wife's trying to kill me. But he could never convince them of that fact. How could you convince somebody that, man, I think. my wife's trying to kill me. Oh, no, no, I don't want to leave her, though. No. I'm okay. And I don't know what I want you to do with her. I just felt like I needed to tell somebody of authority. It does seem, it all seems super strange. Yeah. And on top of that, Tracy started to tell people that it was Michael who orchestrated the attack, not John. So she's flipped there. And I think it was that

that finally was the last draw. That was the wake-up call. That was the wake-up call finally for Michael. He changed the locks on the house. He filed for divorce. And they began a custody battle over their children that lasted for years. He got out of Dodge, too. Yeah, he moved to California in 2004 to get away from Tracy.

And how could he not? If he thought, if he truly believed this. woman was trying to kill him. But, you know, when you talk about the case of Dustin Wheatie, there really wasn't any good evidence. You know, his case went pretty cold. Mona tried to file a wrongful death lawsuit against Tracy, but she couldn't afford the legal fees to fight that battle. Her case was dismissed in 2005. Then in 2010, this is nine years after Dustin was killed. The DC special agent Valeda persuaded the county attorney Ben Smith to reopen Dustin's case. They looked at the list of suspects. And I think pretty quickly they ruled out John.

Well, because John had a pretty darn good alibi. Yeah, for that night. And so really, it kind of came down to Michael and Tracy as the most viable suspects. So this DCI agent, he started emailing Tracy. He told her he was part of a task force charged with finding out, you know, who had committed this crime. So she began to open up little by little revealing details and some of these emails. And at one point, she brought up this notebook that had been found in Dustin's car. The agent told her he was planning to interview Michael and John. And he asked Tracy for a description of John.

And that description that she gave perfectly matched. this paragraph in the journal. Almost as she wrote it herself. Exactly. Or told someone, Dustin, exactly what to write. Now, that's not enough evidence to arrest someone, but it's definitely a rousing suspicion. It's definitely an aha moment.

Yeah, I think so for this special agent it was. But he needed more. In March 2011, Ben Smith interviewed a woman named Mary Higgins. I guess Mary Higgins was one of Tracy's close friends. He told her, we think that we found something that links Tracy to this. And I guess this Mary Higgins responded with, you mean that stupid pink notebook? So, I mean, I think the fact that Mary Higgins knew about the pink notebook right away implicated Tracy in the case. Sure did.

Because how would Mary know about it if this was. was Dustin's secret journal, something that only he wrote in. She wouldn't. She would only know about it if Tracy knew about it and had told her details about it. By this time, Tracy had moved to Omaha after her divorce from Michael. But they arrested her there on July 27, 2011, nine and a half years after Dustin's death. She was charged with first degree murder. and sent back to Iowa. Shortly before her arrest, Michael won custody of the children and moved them to California with him permanently.

I'm sure it helped his custody case. Didn't hurt it. Not at all. His plan was to move with the children to Australia, but before he could do that, he had to testify at Tracy's trial. Also, the judge ordered that Michael had to travel back and forth from California to Iowa so that Tracy could visit her children, which at first I thought was strange that the judge would order that he'd have to do this.

But then I thought, okay, she's innocent. Yeah. Until found guilty. She has a right to visit her children. So then I thought, well, no, it's not that strange. Not easy for Michael to have to, you know, repeatedly make this trip. But he doesn't want to be in violation of the court either. No.

I mean, if the court tells you you have to do this, what are you going to do? In late October 2011, Tracy's trial began. Mary Higgins was the prosecution star witness. She testified on October 29, revealing Tracy told her about the notebook shortly after Dustin's death. While Tracy was recounting the shooting to Mary Higgins, her son, Bert walked in and asked, why did you go back there? You didn't have to shoot him. You didn't have to kill him.

Tracy shouted at him and left. This is all according to the Des Moines Register. But Mary never told the police about the notebook because she just assumed that they already knew all about it. John Pittman testified that the journal did describe him accurately. You know, it said he was a doctor from Virginia, a white male in his 40s who was in the army, and slightly overweight on the stand. he denied any involvement in the incident. So the prosecution proposed that Tracy made Dustin right in the journal before she shot him. They thought perhaps she lured him into the house

with the promise of sex, money, a job. They didn't know exactly what it was. Mona Weedy testified that on December 12th, 2001, Tracy told Mona, we have a whole bunch of copies. The that we want Dustin to make. And apparently Mona told her, well, Dustin's not real speedy about getting jobs done. And Tracy said, that's okay. No big deal. Now,

the defense theory centered around the second intruder. They said that it could have been a man Mona was having an affair with. And I guess there was a man, Jeremy Collins, who testified that he had nothing to do with the crime. He said he didn't even really know Dustin. The defense characterized Dustin as mentally troubled, violent, and Mona admitted. Dustin had had some behavioral issues, but she said overall he was a good kid, just trying to get by.

On November 2nd, 2011, blood spatter expert Rodney Englert demonstrated how Tracy fired the gun at Dustin. The first shots hit his right arm, abdomen and backside, and then the last four were to his head. while he lay on the floor. One of the final bullets hit his shoulder and the others went through his neck. But I think the key here Gibbs was that he testified that the final shots didn't occur until 15 minutes after the first set. So he was laying on the ground. Enough time goes past 15 minutes according to him.

And this is probably when the other handgun came into play. Yeah. So in those 15 minutes, obviously he. he's incapacitated at the very least. Right. No more danger. No. So they're saying you had plenty of time to either run out of the house, but that's not what you did.

You got another handgun. Yeah. And you fired the fatal bullets into his head. Now, Bert testified in favor of his mother. He said that he was upstairs watching a movie with his brother while Tracy was giving his sister a bat. She brought Mason upstairs and handed her to Bert before shutting the door. Bert said he heard a choking noise and thought that his mother was dead.

So he grabbed the baseball bat to protect himself and his siblings and he gave his brother a pen as a weapon. Tracy entered the room. Her hands were tied up with panty hose and she had guns in each hand. Bert said that he and his mom left the room and he saw Dustin trying to get up. Tracy put the kids back in the room and she shot Dustin again. Bert said he heard his mom say, stay down, stay down, stay on the ground, don't get up, stay down.

Then she fired shots. Bert went downstairs and called 911. And then he called his grandma. Now, Bert said he thought his stepfather could have been involved. He spoke on the stand about how Michael, Dustin and himself took some kids to play paintball at an abandoned farm, they practiced what he called home invasions. He claimed his stepdad was obsessed with guns and was both controlling and manipulative. So it's a good twist on this then, right?

Because Bird is saying, look, my mom was attacked, her hands were tied, she went and got her guns, and she protected herself and us. And when the guy tried to get up again, she did what anybody else would do, put them back down. because he wouldn't stay down. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that Bert backed his mom 100%. Now, I don't know that it lines up very well with the testimony of some of the experts, right? We talked about that 15 minutes and all that. I'm not sure if all that lines up.

The defense also talked about how the police botched the investigation. They didn't look at the trajectory of the bullets. they didn't recover fingerprints. They didn't video the crime scene. They didn't take Tracy's clothing into evidence. They also didn't interview Jeremy Collin until 2009. That's a pretty big gap. That's almost, yeah, well, eight years or so.

Yeah. They lost cell phone records. They lost some posted notes from Dustin's room. And apparently they said one of these notes said money in November with a phone number of a hotel that Jeremy Collins had stayed at with Mona. An emergency room doctor who treated Tracy that night testified for the defense. He described her as very shaky, very tearful with red marks on the front of her neck that supported her story.

And then the defense ended with talk of a local veterinarian who said that he saw Michael dropping off a package at a bank, a few hours. before the shooting. And this is important, right? Because we mentioned it earlier. Michael was supposedly out of town at the time that this incident occurred. Well, he couldn't have been if this was true. Right. And he was seen dropping off a package during this time frame. Well, according to this man that saw him, Michael told him, hey, keep your mouth shut. You didn't see me. Now, this is a story that Michael has emphatically denied. And you would think if it was in front of a bank near a bank, you would hope they would have some type of surveillance cameras. Well, you would hope,

but I think what you have to ask is how many years later is this information coming out? Because I don't know exactly when the information about the veterinarian came out. If it's like some of these other things and they didn't talk to people until, you know, six, seven, eight years after, well, that video is going to be gone. Yeah, it's gone or been recycled and taped over again and again. So the prosecution presented their case, the defense presented theirs, and they both rested. And the jury began to liberate on November 7th, 2011, Tracy was found guilty of first-degree murder and was sentenced to life in prison. Tracy's father, Bernard, died just after she was sentenced.

He was found after relatives sent police to check on him. I guess he died of natural causes, but it was stressed by the family that he was so affected by Tracy's trial and conviction that they felt that it had something to do with his death. No doubt. No doubt. It had a wear on them. So Tracy's found guilty. She's going to be shipped off to prison. In 2012, information came out that Tracy was sharing letters with a guy named James Landa, a child sex offender. She was, she wanted to find witnesses to improve her defense for an appeal. These letters apparently sent a few days before her sentencing included photos of children and information about her ex-husband Michael. So apparently this guy James Landa had written to Tracy before her trial, offering her support, why I have no idea.

So she wrote him back asking him if he had any friends who had knowledge of the crime. and she said she included the photos of children to try to cheer him up. Entice him to help her out. Well, yeah, I would think if you're sending photos of children to a known child sex offender and then you say you're doing it to cheer them up, what are you really doing it for? That's encouraging the wrong behavior. No doubt about it. These letters ultimately became public because of her custody battle with Michael.

On January 9th, 2014, her conviction was upheld. At appeal, Tracy remained in prison. In April of 2014, Ben Smith filed a garnishment action to obtain $240,000 in court cost, restitution, and other expenses from Tracy. And I guess Gibbs, he placed a court order. to confiscate all of the money in her prison accounts. I've never heard of this. Maybe this happens all the time.

I don't know. But this is the first time I've actually ever heard of it. And basically what it meant was she wasn't able to buy, you know, things at the canteen or whatever he call it. She wasn't able to buy basic necessities. She wasn't even able to call her family. She was on lockdown. Because she had no money in her account.

If somebody would put it in, it would be garnished. Like taking money out of your check for child support. Wow. Well, this guy wasn't messing around. He wasn't playing at all. He even went as far as to take the wages that she earned in her job in the kitchen, which meant she had nothing. Now, they don't make a lot, but, you know, might buy a pack of ramen or something

like that. Eventually, Smith amended the order to only take 70% of the money, but they didn't put any of the money that they had taken back. So she had to, I guess, work to build it back up. It'd be rough when all you can get is a bag of Cheetos, man. That's it. Then in July 2014, authorities obtained a search warrant stating that Tracy and her mother Anna worked together to harass prosecution witnesses by spreading defematory information about them. I kind of hinted at this earlier, right? The fact that it would come out that Tracy had a habit of this trying to make people look bad by saying Gibbs what was really some horrible things about people.

Now, I think most of it was directed at her ex-husbands. now they're saying she went after some of the witnesses who testified against her. And I think they obtained the warrant based on some phone conversations that Tracy had with her mother. I still think it's strange that people don't realize that all of those conversations that you have in prison or monitored, taped, recorded, whatever. Yeah, you think by now everybody would understand that. But back then, maybe not so much. but today, boy, if you go and pick up one of those phones, I hope you guys know that. Well, this is 2014. It's not, you know, 1984.

Right. They should know that. You should know that. There's enough crime shows. There's enough documentaries. So authorities searched Anna's condo. They seized a flash drive and a computer. And it was alleged that it was Anna who had paid and provided information to a man who made posts on a website, called the ripoff report. And basically, you know, this guy accused these witnesses who testified against Tracy of everything. I mean, we're talking theft, perjury, fraud, child molestation, murder. Terrorism.

Terrorism. Everything underneath the sun. The whole kitchen sink. I think the timing was important because Tracy was seeking a new trial. So she was desperate, right? to cast aspersions on the people who had testified against her. This was so bad Gibbs that posts were made about one prosecution witness claiming that he was linked to child torture pornography.

That's going to have an impact on your life. In every way conceivable, right? This guy had a business. It had a very negative impact on that, like we mentioned before. Who wants to patronize a. business owned by someone who they believe is involved in child torture pornography. Nobody. Articles were also apparently published defaming John Pittman. And it was said that, you know, it put a significant dent into his plastic surgery clinic. Again, it's the power of the internet,

right? Social media, the internet, once you put something out there, it's easy to put it out there. It is. And people will latch on to it. It's very hard to walk it back, especially, you know, if you're the person who false things are said about, how do you clear your name? It's not easy. In the virtual world, especially. Because I read it. It must be true.

It's like that famous commercial, right? It's on the internet. It's got to be true. And then that same person who's reading that, are they? going back a month, three months, six months later to research it again? Doubtful. Doubtful. So if new information comes out that it's not true, how likely are they to see that?

Probably not. I've seen articles about companies that have to go in and clean this stuff up. It's $10,000 for some of these individuals to get that kind of stuff cleaned up. And there's no guarantee because how rapid the internet is. is with information. And how far it spreads. Exactly. Yeah. And it's vast. I mean, that's that's part of the problem. As of 2020, Tracy is currently at Iowa Correctional Institution for Women in Mitchellville. This is the most recent news we could find on her. And it's not known if she's planning further appeals at this time. Now, Tracy and her family maintain her innocence. I think it's safe to say based on what we

said about Bert and his testimony that he fully believes his mother is innocent. He's also changed his name to Bert Richter instead of Pittman. He created a Facebook group called Free Tracy Richter with over 500 members. He also created a change.org petition to help his mother get out of prison. Bert is now 30 years old. Married. He's the head coach of the Waukee Warriors lacrosse team at Waukee high school in Iowa. He also owns a company called Tile RX, a renovation company in Des Moines. Michael issued a formal apology to Mona for defending Tracy and insulting Dustin. In 2014, he appealed the custody ruling and he got permission to move himself and the children to Australia. He has a new wife and he and his daughters live in Brisbane, Australia. They've tried

their best to keep out of the public eye. And his kids are now in their 20s. Yeah, growing up. And they have no relationship whatsoever with their mother Tracy. John still works as a plastic surgeon. He currently has a private practice in Williamsburg, Virginia. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case on Tracy Richter, we said it right up front. I think as people hear Tracy's story, there will be some people that are divided, right, in their opinions on her guilt or innocence. Yeah. I think some people believe she was just a brave mother, willing to do whatever she had to protect her children.

Others believe she was a cold calculating killer who used Dustin Wheatie as a pawn in her plot against John Pittman. I think it's really hard to look past the things in her life, the troubled marriages, is her documented extreme temper, the lies, the manipulation over a long period of time. Right. A lot of that's pretty well documented. I don't think it won her any favor with the jury and I don't think it in any way wins her much favor with the public.

And so my thought is the majority of people probably lean towards the fact that she's guilty. I think the notebook is hard to get past. I agree. I think that was probably a pretty big deciding factor for people on the jury. Yeah, I imagine it was. You have this information written in Dustin Wheatie's handwriting. Okay, how could he have known some of these things unless he got it from Tracy?

And then all of a sudden he winds up dead. Well, and you have Mary Higgins bringing up the notebook to police. It doesn't look good. It doesn't. Back to what we said, how does Tracy know about the notebook? How does Mary Higgins know about the notebook other than the fact that she learned it from Tracy? And who other than Tracy would want to frame someone like John, her ex-husband? Right.

Because really, to me, that's what that notebook. Notebook represents. Unless you believe that John Pittman and or Michael hired Dustin to actually kill Tracy and her son Bert. If not, then it has to be a frame job, right? It's only options you have. But I do think unlike a lot of cases that seem to be what I would call ironclad, right? The evidence is overwhelming. I think there are some people that could look at this and say, I just don't know if it's there. It doesn't look good. It also sure doesn't look good that you're trying to smear witnesses after the fact.

That doesn't look good at all. That don't bode well. Does it mean for certain that Tracy killed Dustin Wheatie in what was a staged home invasion? No, but it, you know, the jury thought so. Yeah. And they got to see a lot more evidence than we did, obviously. I think at the very least, you'd say things do not look good for Tracy when it comes to this case. But at the same time, I can see where people may have a differing opinion.

And that's why we said this case is a little different. I think everybody has to make up their own mind based on the facts that are laid out. Sure. I mean, her own son, Bert is saying, my mom didn't do this. And Bert was there. Yeah. So. But at the.

same time, Gibbs, what son wants to believe that their mother is a killer? None. You got that, you know, you got to factor that in as well. But that's it for the case of Tracy Richter. Interesting case, no doubt. Maybe not as straightforward, right, is a lot of the cases that we do. A little bit more mystery in this one. Like a little mystery. Yeah. It's kind of got an unsolved flare to it, even though it's solved. Yeah. Right? There's still a little bit of mystery. There's a way for you to make up your own mind. That's kind of what we like about some of the unsolved cases. In this case, you either put your faith behind the jury of your peers or you say, I don't know if they really got it right. Yeah. We've got some

voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Victoria from Northern Ireland here. I actually just listened to one of your podcasts there. And there was a voicemail from another lady from Northern Ireland, and you said how much you liked her accent, which is so strange to be because everybody in Northern Ireland hates their accent, I'm pretty sure, but thanks anyway. I started listening to the podcast and I think maybe August or September time. I'm allowed to listen to music in my part-time job, so I just put my earphones in and listen to T-Cat all day. I think I'm almost finished as well, but I haven't really listened in a particular order, which is a bit strange, but I'm really enjoying it anyway.

So thank you so much. Bye. She reminds me of the Irish girl and Piqui Blinders. Oh, the main one that ends up being married to the main guy? Yeah. Which one? That one? Yeah.

So how can you not like that accent? That accent is awesome. Yeah. I like that. I like the Scottish accent. I mean, I think it's kind of natural that we like accents that are different from ours. Well, I'm much different from mine. I mean, yours is kind of ubiquitous or it's, you know, it morph,

into a bunch of different things. Like, I like a good southern drawl, like southern accent, too. Because I think that's cool. And that's here in the U.S. You're just happy if someone talks to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes that's pay people to talk to me. It's sad. Hi, guys. This is the summer from Maryland. I'm calling, I just called you guys last week. I'm not trying to harass you or anything. But I just am listening to, I'm trying to catch up from, you know, your first podcast.

And I'm just on Ed Kemper Part 2. And you were talking about how you'd like imagine him on this small bike. And it was just funny because my husband rides bikes and he had a small Harley. And he's not huge, but he's like six foot, six foot one. And, you know, he's kind of stocky. And he literally looked like he was on those little tricycles, like the big clowns in the circus. And it was so funny. And so that picture just, yeah, you guys are great.

So, uh, yeah, stay safe and keep your own time sticking. So, you know, Harley makes a lot of cool motorcycles. And those little sportssters are a lot of fun. Yeah. They really are. They're fun to drive. They're nimble. The problem is if you're six foot or taller and you're husky, you probably need to step up to like the road king, which is what I have or street glide or something like that.

If not, you just look like a big dude on this little bitty. A little tiny bike. A little bike. But it's not to say a lot of men ride the sportssters. They're fun, fun, fun bikes to ride. And I don't ride either. No, because you refuse to open up that wallet, get you a motorcycle, so we can go on the cross-country tour. One of these days.

You be Thelma, I'll be Louise, and let's roll it. Wait, did I want to be Thelma? I don't remember which one's which. They both have the same fate. Why didn't they be Thelma Louise, though? They both end up with the same fate, right? Can we be like the Marlboro Man and whatever the other guy's name was? Whatever the other guy's name was.

So you pick a duo and. You can only remember one name. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. I can't remember. Hey, as long as you got it together. I got it.

You know, Mike Gibby. I'm a huge fucking fan of the show at your boy Clyde. Anyways, I'm being arrested. This is my one phone call. I figured I'd say, hey, get a little shout out. Anyways, can't wait until you cover me. Bye. All right.

I got to start combing the news for Clyde. Bonds on its way. And Gibby's going to provide, he's going to bail you out. That will never happen. Speaking of opening up your wallet to buy a Harley, you ain't never bailing nobody out. I mean, you get in a free night, bed and, you know. Just deal with it. Meals.

I thought that one was funny, though. It was. You're going to use your one and only phone call to call the T-Cat voice line? Hi, it's Joe again. So I keep telling. I was just listening to the first part after listening to the second part of Ali and Warren. And y'all talk about like how serial killers have like a bad childhood or or good childhood.

Do you think, like, I don't know if you guys think about, like, a multiverse, like, the way, like, things could be different, but the same? Do you think there is a universe where, like, Eileen Warren, like, finds the cure to cancer and Richard Ramirez, like, cure's diabetes and, like, I was just curious. You didn't go to put it on the podcast, but I just wanted to put it in your head a little bit there. Because I feel like it's interesting, like, is there another, is there another plane of existence to where, like, John Wayne Gasey, like, solves world hunger, you know? something to think about.

Keep on something. We in a Matrix. Yeah. So you got very deep right there, right? We're talking about multiverse and planes and planes of existence and all that. What I will say is, is I do think that some of these people, not all, some of these people with a different upbringing, different parental guidance, different role models. would have a much different path and a different outcome.

I truly believe that. Now, some might have the same outcome. It's kind of like that movie trading places. Places with Eddie Murphy? Yeah. Just put them in a different environment. It's exactly like that. Yeah.

Now, yeah, I don't know if there's an alternate universe, you know. I'm not Stephen Hawking or, what's that other guy with the three? names. Neil deGrasse Tyson? There you go. All right. See, how do I know what you're thinking of?

Well, when I wouldn't even have come up with that name, but for some reason I know you're about, that's who you're thinking of. So I'm not, I'm not that smart to be able to figure all that stuff out. But I do believe that some of these individuals would have led a productive, nonviolent life possibly if their environmental factors were different. Well, I think people would agree with that. Now, if you're talking about Eileen Warnos, if you go back to her, she had just a horrible childhood.

Yeah. It was almost like she had no chance, but to end up, you know, doing some things that we wouldn't want any of our children to do. Yeah. Sure. We've also had some killers that had good background. So, you know, kind of flies in the face and you think, I don't know. You know, it's back to that nature versus nurse.

question that comes up quite a bit. And that's why I definitely wouldn't say all. I think there are some people that are going to go down a bad road at some point, no matter what. Yeah, it's just third destiny. Yeah, with loving parents. They're, they're given everything. They're treated, you know, the right way. Um, it's a fascinating road to go down to think about. All right. We appreciate the voicemails. We had one thing in the mailbag Gibbs. Yeah. Friend of the show. Samantha Ungahier made us some very cool embroidered T-Cat stuff that will hang here in the studio. That's awesome. Thank you.

Yeah. We appreciate that, Samantha. All right, buddy, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.