True Crime All The Time - Walter Leo Jackson Sr

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

In June of this year, DNA evidence identified a deceased serial rapist from Ohio as the man who murdered two women in Virginia’s Shenandoah National Park over twenty years ago. And we profiled these two women in episode 259 of our unsolved podcast called The Route 29 Stalker. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Walter Leo Jackson Sr. 26-year-old Laura Winans and 24-year-old Julianne Williams were found dead at their campsite inside the park after their families reported them missing to the National Park Service. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 404 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing great. Good.

We just got done taping our weekly Patreon minisode where I talk about my ransom letter. Yeah. That I received, which was pretty fascinating. It was. And I talked about my experience going to Altta Beauty. Yeah. I think you called it ultra. Did I probably did.

I don't know. I knew what you're talking about, though. You did? Let's go ahead and do our Patreon shoutouts. We had Mirjam Murphy. Hey, Mirjam. Andrew Johnson. What's up, Andrew?

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How do you make something out of a word that has three letters in it? And you're going to put extra letters and all kinds of things. I could be right. We had Ann. Hey, Ann. Nick the quick Frazier. Wonder why you're quick, Nick. We don't know.

I know. Jason Gardner. Hey, Jason. And last but not least, Kelly Argent. The Kelly. And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected. Vandis. Hey, Katra. So appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had a couple of

great PayPal donations from Rad Girl Graphics and Karen Steele. Well, thank you both. Yeah, it's amazing. We appreciate all the support we get. We do. So right now we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about 18-year-old Nico Lisi. Niko was 18 years old when he went missing. And he disappeared after taking a road trip in 2011 to Tennessee without telling his family. So we get into all the details. You know, some years later, they find his truck, but they don't find him. And it's a pretty mysterious case.

We're diving into all that. Yeah, absolutely. So make sure you check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. In June of this year, DNA evidence identified a deceased serial rapist from Ohio is the man who murdered two women in Virginia's Shenandoah National Park over 20 years ago. And, you know, this case is very different

from many that we've done in that we actually profiled these two women. And I think it was episode 250 or 259. It was somewhere in the 250s of our Unsolved Podcast. The title of that that episode was the Route 29 stalker. Good episode. 26-year-old Laura Wyandons and 24-year-old Julianne Williams were found dead at their campsite inside the park after their families reported them missing to the National Park Service. So, you know, a lot of times people want us to update some of the unsolved cases.

We haven't done many. I don't even know if we've done any, but, you know, this is kind of an up. update of an unsolved case that we did. Yeah. Laura Lally Wynens was born on March 9th, 1970. She grew up in Gross Point, Michigan. Well, that's not too far from us. You know, it's near Detroit.

Yeah, very close to where I used to live in Detroit. There's also that great movie called Gross Point Blank. That's one of the best movies ever. Yeah. I miss John Cusack. I do too. I used to really enjoy a lot of his movie. I mean, he's still alive.

Oh, yeah. I just don't know what he's doing. Well, at a certain point, some actors just don't, and actresses just don't get cast anymore. Yeah. Now, some of the female actresses,

unfortunately, it's because their, their looks fade. And that's really sad. It is sad. I don't know why some male actors, you know, stop getting cast,

because there's guys like Harrison Ford, you know, obviously Clint Eastwood, people like that. If they were 104, they would get cast in a movie. Yeah. When Tom Hanks is 100, he'll be playing Forrest Gump 14 or something.

Well, maybe John's still out there doing things. But hey, he needs to do a follow-up the gross point. Can he do a follow-up to gross point? I don't know if he could do a follow-up to that one or not. Yeah, I'm trying to remember the ending. Well, you can always come on the podcast with us. Julianne Julie Williams was born on September 11th, 1971. She was originally from St. Cloud, Minnesota.

as a teenager, Julie volunteered at a women's shelter in St. Cloud and participated in the Big Brothers Big Sisters program. Were you ever a big sister? I was not. I was not at a big brother either. I'm just checking. But I do think, you know, a teenager volunteering at a women's shelter, you know, participating in the Big Brothers Big Sisters program, to me that is absolutely amazing. I think so too. because you and I have had teenagers. I still have one who's about ready to turn 20, so technically won't be a teenager anymore. They're great,

but, you know, I don't know how much selflessness is going on today. Maybe there's a lot of kids out there doing it, but I think a lot of the kids are, you know, they're into themselves. They're also into their phones,

their friends. You know, not many people. And let's not even, talk about teenagers. How many people really want to give up their free time to volunteer? Yeah, I don't know. Is it a big brother, big sister, even still out there? I don't know. I don't hear about it, but I'm sure it probably is or some version of it. Right. Now, Julie's friend, Becky Meyer, told the Richmond Times dispatch. A lot of us did those things because we got extra credit

and it looked good on our applications to college. But Julie did those things because she really wanted to do them. She was just genuinely one of the best people I have ever know. And I think if you told someone, okay, you could get extra credit, that's going to up the incentive by a long shot, you know, to volunteer. Yeah, for sure. But it doesn't sound like that was, you know, why she wanted to do it. And I remember when I was a teenager, my mom was always talking about, well, this is going to look good on your college application. She had me volunteer at the hospital one summer. That's going to look great on your college application. Yeah.

You know what? Nobody gave a rat you know what about. You volunteered at the hospital? That I volunteered at the hospital. Julie graduated from Carlton College in Northfield, Minnesota in 1994. Her goal was to eventually become a geologist. I wanted to be a geologist. I was not.

And you are not. You neither was nor are. But I can look at some rocks and tell you some few things about them. Can you? Some geodes? Yeah. Okay. Julie and Lolly were experienced hikers and they were passionate about environmental issues.

They met in the summer of 1994 while working for Woods Women Incorporated an inventor vacation travel organization in Minneapolis. Woods Women Incorporated. You ever go on an adventure vacation? Yes. Would you like to elaborate? No. Okay. I don't know that I've ever been on what I think this.

would be, whether it's, you know, hiking out into the woods with a guide or, you know, a guide taking you down a series of rapids. I've never really done anything like that. I think you would enjoy it. I don't know that I would, but I'll take a word for it. Two-day thing you would like. Okay. More than two days is not going to be your thing. I can do like a little zip line down to the river. I don't do zip lines. I don't do parasailing. I don't do anything. I don't do anything. I don't do. where I've seen a video of somebody being horribly disfigured or losing the ability to walk. I mean, that's taken away like almost all the adventure stuff. Yes.

Bungee jumping. I've seen the rope snap. Mm-mm. I'm out. Okay. So Julia and Lolly eventually started a relationship, but they kept this private. And they only told a few people. The Richmond Times Dispatch reported that they developed a fondness for one another to a point that they expected to share their lives.

Most of their family members and their high school and college friends didn't know about their relationship until after they were murdered. Lolly's father told the Times Dispatch, it was becoming more and more open, but it was fairly new as far as her opening up about it. And, you know, we're talking about the 1990s here. I won't say that I have any idea what it was like for lesbian, gay individuals in the 90s. Was it easy to come out for lesbians in the 90s? I don't know because I just have no experience with it. I'm sure it was harder than it was in, let's say, 2024. Oh, I think so, yeah.

I just remember in the 90s that Ellen lost her show because she came out. So, I mean, that probably puts it into some perspective. Yeah. Right? The 90s was not probably as progressive as we would like to think it was. At the time of her death, Wally was finishing her degree in outdoor leadership skills at Unity College in May. She was supposed to graduate in December 1996 and hoped to get a job as an accrued. Outdoor Guide after graduation.

Well, if you're going to use a guide, you probably prefer the guide to be accredited. As opposed to you sitting out like by a hut in the woods with a sign. Yes. I would really like to have an accredited guide, not some yokel sitting there and like bib overalls with no shirt on underneath. Guide for hire. Yeah, that says, uh, guide, $10. Yeah.

Pay up front. Lolly's friend Clint Hopkins said they discussed going into business together. After graduation, Lollie wanted to start a company that would help victims of trauma experience the outdoors. So he talked a lot about, you know, Julie volunteering. And it sounds like Lollie was just a great person as well. What a great idea to help people going through trauma, get them outside, take them on some adventure. I like that. Yeah.

and make some money doing it, right? You're doing a good thing for people, but it's a business. Sure. You know, you could help support yourself doing that. Julie was living near Burlington, Vermont and had been working at a bookstore. She was supposed to start her summer internship for the Lake Champlain Water Quality Project on June 2, 1996. Julie and Lolly had plans to move in together in a home bordering the Green Mountain National Forest in Vermont. And that doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, they, they seem like very, you know, outdoorsy type of individual. The decision to try to find a home near a national park seems to fit, you know, right in line with their, their personalities, the things that they enjoy. Yeah, well, I wouldn't want to be next to the place you love. Yeah.

In May 1996, Julie and Lolly made plans for a five-day hike in Virginia's Shenandoah National Park. They entered the park. on May 22nd. Lolly and Julie told friends they would return to Vermont on May 27. They were going to hike several circuits that were part of the Appalachian Trail as well as secondary trails inside the park. It's always been one of my bucket list things, the Appalachian Trail. Kind of to hike it. Yeah. It's not like I have time to do the whole thing or the ability to do the whole thing. I'm going to say, I don't know if time is your. your main concern.

But I thought it would be cool to do segments of it. Like it starts in Georgia, it goes all the way up to pass Vermont, right? And just kind of like pick up pieces of it and follow it through every year. I'm going to do a couple days, you know, here. And then start back where you finished each year? Yeah.

Until you finally at the age of 96, reach Vermont. It's right. I did it. I'm getting a real, uh, uh, Forrest Gump vibe here of your,

of your adventure. Now, their park permit indicated that they started their hike at the Little Stony Man Cliffs and worked their way south along the Stony Man Nature Trail towards Skyland Lodge. A car registered to one

of the women was found in the Little Stony Man Cliffs parking lot. Julie and Lolly were last seen alive by another hiker on May 24th, 1996. They were at an Appalachian Trail shelter with their golden retriever touch. So, you know, not only are they out enjoying the outdoors, which they obviously loved, but they had their dog with them. I mean, it does sound like a fun adventure. It does.

But the pair did not return to Vermont on the scheduled date, which caused concern. Julie's father called Shannon Doa National Park on May 31st. And we do have to keep in mind the time frame, right? 1996, you're not checking in on Facebook. You're not giving updates on your iPhone or your Android phone. It wasn't the 70s, but it was still kind of a little tougher to keep in touch for people to know. You can make phone calls, obviously, in 1996 if you had a cell phone. I don't know. And you and I have talked on a number of episodes. You know, how many people actually had a cell phone in 1996? I think they were becoming more prolific by then, but I'm sure not everyone. No.

And would they even work in a national park? Probably not, especially back then. Because of the cell tower coverage in the 90s. Julie and Lolley's dog was found wandering alone, but unharmed, near White Oak Canyon Trail inside the park, which prompted greater search efforts for the two women. On June 1, 1996, the bodies of Julie. and Lally were found 30 yards off a steep horse trail across from Skyline Drive, about a half mile from Skyland Lott. The bodies were found beside the headwaters of the Robinson River.

They were naked, bound with duct tape, and their throats were cut. Brutal. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely brutal and would be for anyone. But we've just talked about these two women in such glowing term. And number one, they were. They were, were just kind of starting their line, right? They were young. But it also sounds like they were exceptional people. Right. Now, you would feel bad if this happened to anyone. But when you find out that, you know, these are young women who are just doing great things in the world, to me, it almost adds an element to it. It seems like it's a bigger loss. Yeah. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but if you told me a, you know, a serial predator was found with his throat cut,

I would say, well, that shouldn't happen, but. But it did. But it did. Initially, investigators didn't share many details about the murders and declined to comment on whether the women were sexually assaulted. One park service spokesman said, they weren't sure a crime occurred. And there was some thought it was a murder of suicide per the Richmond Times dispatch. So they're naked.

They're both bound with duct tape with their throats cut. But we're not sure if a crime actually occurred. Yeah, I would be a little confused by that statement back then. But you're not right now? Oh, yeah. I guess I'm just as confused a day as I would be back then. Well, that's what I was thinking. I just wanted to make sure.

It doesn't seem like the description that you would normally hear in a murder scene. suicide. The investigation was hindered by the environment. A National Park Service spokesman said, this is not your typical crime scene. The terrain is very rugged. There's no population to speak of. It's much different than a crime scene in Washington or Richmond. And I get that. You're essentially out in the middle of nowhere. You're not canvassing a neighborhood because there is no neighborhood. Yeah, there's nowhere to canvas. The murders were deeply upsetting to, women and members of the LGBTQ plus community who enjoyed hiking, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force sent a letter to Attorney General Janet Reno, suggesting Julie and Lolly were

targeted because of their sexuality. And the murders were compared to a case from the late 1980s. In May 1988, Rebecca White and her girlfriend, Claudia Brenner were hiking the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania. During their hike, they encountered a man named Stephen Roy Carr. He was a fugitive and was living in the mountains of the Mishaw State Forest. Rebecca and Claudia set up camp one evening and had sex, not knowing they were being watched by Carr. Carr shot at the women, killing Rebecca and injuring Claudia. He was later sentenced to life in prison for the murder. At trial, he claimed he was enraged. By the side,

of the two women having sex. Wow, what a POS. Yeah, well, you and I often talk about, you know, what goes through these people's minds? Why do they do the things they do? I think it's at the heart of the fascination over true crime, right? Everyone trying to figure out how these people do what they do or why they do what they do. But this guy became so upset about seeing two women having sex that he killed one of them,

tried to kill both. Yeah, I mean, they're having a private moment. They didn't realize somebody was watching them. He didn't have to watch them. That's right. He could have walked away. It went somewhere else. But he decided to watch.

And then he got upset and thought, you know, the way I'm going to take care of this is to kill him. FBI spokesman John Donahue told the Burlington Free Press of Vermont. There was no indication the 1996 murders were a hate crime. However, later that month, the attorney general Reno, assured the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force that investigators were considering anti-lesbian bias as a motive. And I think you can see based on this incident we just talked about how they might think

this could be a target situation. You know, they were targeted because of their sexuality. Yeah, I mean, you got to leave everything on the table. The police did find important forensic evidence at the crime scene, but the kids, case went cold. And unfortunately, we talk about that so often in our unsolved cases. And I'm sure we talked about it in our episode on the Route 29 stalker. You know, you can have great evidence. It doesn't mean that you're going to be able to solve the case and especially solve it very quickly. Yeah, that's true. Over 20,000 hikers around the country commemorated the anniversary of the murders by hiking

during Memorial Day weekend. Julie's mother, Patsy Williams, hiked the same trail, her daughter traveled in Shenandoah National Park and told the press that Julie wouldn't have wanted anyone to be afraid to go hiking.

What a strong community that is. 20,000 people. Catherine Miles, author of the 2022 book Trail, one woman's quest to solve the Shenandoah murders, told the Washington Post for an entire generation

of hikers and backpackers. particularly women and people who identify as queer. The impact of this crime was such that it sort of fundamentally removed the wilderness for them and made them very afraid. And that's sad for, you know, one thing, but it's also reminiscent of something we talk about often. You have like a little community whose members feel very safe until they don't because of, you know, some tragic crime.

Well, here you have a group of people who don't feel safe because of certain crimes, one known to have been targeted, true, against that group, and another thought to potentially have involved targeting lesbians. So you have a whole group of people afraid to go hiking because of these murders. You can't even go hiking out in the wilderness. because you have to worry about somebody trying to murder you. Investigators thought they had a break in the case. In April 2002, when they charged Daryl David Rice with capital murder,

Rice was a computer programmer from Maryland who was convicted of attacking a woman in Shenandoah National Park in 1997. Cameras captured Rice entering the park twice around the time of the murders, and he allegedly made admissions about the crime to others. prisoners according to the Washington Post. Okay, that is going to get you looked at and in this case eventually charged with murder. Cameras put you there and you're telling other prisoners that you committed the crime. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft announced the indictment against Rice. It was the first time prosecutors used a 1994 law, allowing enhanced penalties for crimes motivated by

biased against gay people. Authorities allege that Rice selected Lolly and Julie his victims because of his hatred towards women and LGBTQ plus people. He was already serving an 11-year prison sentence when he was charged. In 1998, he pleaded guilty to the attempted abduction of a female cyclist. Yvonne Malbasha was cycling along Skyline Drive in Channandoah National Park on July 9th, 1997. Rice drove by in his truck. He stopped to take the tags off his truck. And then he drove back and forced Yvonne off the road. He screamed at her to get in his truck and demanded that she show him

her breasts. He tried to hit her with his truck several times. Yvonne hit him with her water bottle and jumped behind a tree. She screamed. A car came by and Rice fled the scene. She later testified per the Washington Post, he told me he was going to get me into the truck. And he was screaming at me. I was terrified. I thought he was going to kill me. And who would not be terrified in that situation? That would be very terrifying.

You know, a guy is trying to run you off the road with your bicycle. He's saying get in the truck. Show me your breasts. I mean, all of that sounds violent and sexual. And that would be extremely frightening. Yeah, and on top of that, you're in a very isolated area. Oh, absolutely. Prosecutors speculated that Rice intended to rape Yvonne.

Park Rangers found a piece of nylon cord, 10 feet of rope, and multiple flexicuffs in the truck. Oh, man. I think she was lucky that she got away. That sounds like a kit. Right. Right. That a serial rapist would have or a serial murderer. At the time of his arrest, Daryl said he was trying to ruin.

the victim's day and make her a little unhappy. What? That sounds like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's up there for sure. Now, you kind of have to parse it out. What does this guy mean by ruin? Now, ruin and make someone a little unhappy are two very different things. A sexual assault slash attempted murder, you could say is trying to ruin someone.

but ruin the victim's day. That's not going to ruin someone's day. That's going to severely, negatively impact their life. Exactly. And it sure is not going to make someone a little unhappy. And I can see why the police picked him up. I can see where he has had similar MOs. Yeah, I don't blame the police for, you know,

thinking this guy might have done it. He was not a good guy. I mean, let's face that. But he told investigators he didn't have anything to do with the murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Wynens. He said he didn't mind talking freely about the case and remembered hiking in the park that summer while search parties were looking for the women. According to court papers, Rice said in his interview, all I heard was that they were lesbians, some kind of relationship between girls. An investigator asked him what he thought was going through the mind of the killer. Rice said he could be thinking the same thing I'm thinking about,

like people at work nagging on me, you know, thinking about that. And that's an interesting statement. It really is. You get the sense that this guy was taking his frustrations out on other people, his victims for, you know, things he was experiencing, maybe in his home life, especially at his work life, being nagged. He didn't like it. Bryce explained that he sometimes harassed women he encountered.

For example, he yelled defensive comments at a woman jogging and once spatted a woman's shoes while riding his bike. He's a real character. Yeah, strange stuff. Now, there's a lot of men, far too many probably, who yell offensive comments. Right? There's the stereotype of the construction workers whistling and cat calling at a woman walking by. I don't know how many people are spitting on women's shoes. It's such a weird thing to do. Investigators wrote, Rice stated that females were more vulnerable than men.

And that's why he chooses to confront them. He felt that these confrontations were the result of people being mean to him at work. So this was his way of getting back. At the people he felt were being mean to him at his workplace. So I'll go out and just be mean to people away from work. But not just anyone. I'm not going to pick a fight with a man. No.

He said it. He viewed women as more vulnerable and felt that it would be easier to pick on them. Rice said he was fired from his job a week before the 1997 attack. He mentioned that he sometimes exploded over stressful situations. He sounds like a time bomb just waiting to tick. Yeah. I don't know that I've ever heard that phrase, but I think I get what you're going after ticking time bomb.

Time bomb just waiting to tick I've never heard. Maybe that'll catch on. Maybe it won't. Who knows? Who knows? But I do think you're right. It's like he's going through. stress, he can't handle it, and in his own words, he explodes.

That's a very volatile word, explodes. You could say, you know, I act out, I get stressed. There's a lot of different words you could use, but to explode is very over the top. But the things he was doing was way over the top. So I think it was that. Well, maybe this is why his job got rid of him. they could see see it coming well maybe he exploded at work yeah and they didn't like that at one point he was asked when he felt like he started coming apart he said like the summer of last year no it was

the year before that so it was like two years ago at the point in time where they're talking to him where he said he started coming apart after the arrest virginia state police officials said they were investigating whether Rice could be connected to a series of stockings of female drivers on Route 29, but Rice was not named a suspect. Now, I'll be honest with you, Gibbs, I did not go back and listen to our unsolved episode. I'm assuming we talked about this guy, Rice, but I can't say that for certain. Now, Rice's family was shocked by the murder charge. His older sister, Don Metcalf, told the Washington Post, he has so many friends who are openly gay. This doesn't make sense at all.

He has never expressed any kind of hatred toward any women. But yet he's hurting women. But does it surprise you that he wouldn't show that to friends and family? No, that doesn't surprise me. No, because I don't think that's what these guys do. I think they're careful to hide some of this stuff from their friends and family. the dark side comes out when these people are not around, like in a national forest or, you know, someplace like that. Prosecutor said the 1997 attack showed that Rice had an ongoing plan to assault, intimidate, injure, and kill women because of their gender.

They quoted him as saying that Lolly and Julie deserved to die because they were lesbian hordes. On April 25, 2002, Rice pleaded not guilty. to capital murder. And then over a year later, on February 5th, 2004, federal prosecutors dropped the capital murder charges against him because forensic testing cast doubt on their case. Apparently, hair taken from a glove found that the campsite didn't match rice or the victims. And it could have come from the same individual who left a hair found on a piece of duct tape used to bind one of the victims. Additionally, male genetic material found on a binding cloth was not rices and was most likely

the perpetrators. So this shakes things up? It does. I mean, it does seem like some pretty good exculpatory evidence. Or at the very least, right, evidence that's going to cast reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury. Now, prosecutors suggested more than one assailant. could be responsible.

The Washington Post reported that the hair found on the duct tape was visually similar to that of serial killer Richard Ivomans. Visually similar. I don't know how that works. That's that whole microscopically similar thing. But we covered him as well. He did on TCAT. He died in 2002 before he was implicated in the murder of three girls from Spotsylvania County, Virginia.

and then 20 years passed before the next big development in the Williams and Wynan's murder case. On June 20th, 2004, authorities announced that they matched DNA from the crime scene to convicted rapist Walter Leo Jackson, Sr. Big news. Huge news. But it's also kind of what we're getting used to seeing, right? DNA that they have in some of these older cases, being used either in forensic genetic genealogy or, you know, maybe the perpetrator finally hits a database or whatever it is. But they have it. Maybe now they're just testing some of it because it's backlogged, but it's being used to solve a lot of cases. And that's why I go back to, you know, this kind of theory that if you're a killer sitting around living your life without a care in the world,

that might have been the case for 10, 20, 30 years. I think for a lot of people, that cannot be the case in today's world. No way. You have got to be looking over your shoulder, just wondering when they're going to connect you to this crime or maybe even a series of crimes that you committed in the past.

And then they're come for you. And they'll get you. And I like that thought. I don't want these individuals to get away with these crimes. obviously. But there are many people who have committed crimes that haven't been caught yet. I do find some comfort in the thought that they're scared shitless. You know, I don't want them to be comfortable. No, you want them to be on edge. Yeah. Now, ultimately, I want them to be caught, but at least until they are, I'd like for them to be uncomfortable every minute of the day.

Yeah, I want them to think, today's the day they're going to come get me. It just might be might be that day. So they matched this DNA from the crime scene to this Walter Jackson senior. Leo Jackson died in March 2018 while serving a prison sentence in Ohio. He was 70 years old. And this is a guy who had a lengthy criminal history that included kidnapping, rape, and assault. He worked as a painter. And he was an avid hiker. Jackson frequented the Shenandoah National park, despite it being about 320 miles from his home in the Cleveland area. Well, 320 miles is not too far of a drive. I mean, it's like a weekend getaway kind of a trip.

Oh, it's, yeah, what, five hour, five and a half hours? Yeah. Give or take, depending on how fast you drive, four hours for you. And that's why I have lots of tickets. But obviously, this is stuff that they find out after the fact, right? they don't know, they don't even know about this guy until many, many years down the road. Christopher Kavanaugh, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Virginia, said at a press conference, no matter how long it takes, we don't give up.

If he were alive today, we would seek a single defendant indictment charging Walter Leo Jackson, senior with these crimes. And I love to hear that. You know, you don't want, especially if you're the family, you don't want them to give up. trying to figure out who took your loved one away from you. But even as the general public, this is what you want to hear. Absolutely. Never give up.

Because you don't know. One day you could be in that position and you want to know that they're going to fight to the bitter end. At the press conference, the FBI revealed there was no evidence. Julie Williams and Lolly Wynens were targeted because of their sexual orientation. And I know that was a thought that, you know, the community had back in the after the crime occurred and and a lot of that was based on the other murder double murder that we talked about and I understand why they had that feeling it could

have been that but it also could have been like a lot of murders you have a predator who happens to see an individual or you know a couple of people it's a secluded area and he's a he makes the decision that he's going to strike. Now, I don't know how they came to the determination that it had nothing to do with their sexual orientation. It could have been that, you know, none of his other crimes involved that or he had never said anything against, you know, lesbians or something like that. But I mean, let's face it, most crimes are not based on sexual orientation. No. There are many crimes that are. But the. majority or not. I mean, a lot of times you just have predators out there searching. Very scary thought.

They don't know much about their victims. No, they're just attacking that individual that comes by. Because they feel like this is the right opportunity to do what they want to do. Back in 2021, Agent Stanley Meeter took over the FBI Richmond office and he was briefed on the case. He assigned a new team to look into it. and sent crime scene evidence to a private lab for testing. And this is what led to a hit in a DNA database. According to Agent Meter, those match results confirm a certainty that is rarely seen. One in 2.6 trillion.

Pretty good number. Yeah. Yeah, that's a pretty high number since there aren't 2.6 trillion people in the world. But I think, you know, this is also kind of telling us something here, right? it was 2021 before they they did the DNA testing. What does that tell you? Well, that they had it sitting on their shelf somewhere just didn't get a chance to get to it. Yeah, and that can come down to, you know, priority cost.

There's a lot of factors. But it's something that you and I have talked about a number of times. You know, how many pieces of evidence that most likely contain DNA are seriously. sitting on an evidence shelf or in an evidence room somewhere right now, have never been tested. But if they are, could lead to solving a cold case. And I think the number is staggeringly high. I believe it is. I mean, I've read stories where there's these evidence trailers that are packful.

But because the county doesn't have the money to test them, you know, they sit until they get some funding, some money. and then they test a few of them until they run out of money again. Yeah, if it wasn't a matter of cost, then they would, they'd test them all. Sure. Leo Jackson was convicted of three rapes in Ohio, and his DNA was used to secure convictions in these cases. So they had his DNA. To ensure he was a match in the Wynens and Williams case, the FBI took the additional step of comparing evidence from the victims directly to Jackson's cheek swab, which confirmed the result.

So they didn't just rely on the DNA that was used to secure his other convictions. They went and swabbed his cheek again. Retesting of evidence also confirmed that Julie and Lolly were sexually assaulted. Investigators are confident that Jackson would have been convicted and confident no one else was involved in the murders. Authorities announced that Jackson had been ruled out of several. unsolved cases in the area, including the murders of Kathleen Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, who were killed on Colonial Parkway. Yet another unsolved case that we profile. Yeah. The Colonial Parkway murders, you and I have talked to Kathleen's brother Bill a number of times.

Oh, so many times. You know, just a great guy who is so passionate about solving, you know, this case and especially the, obviously the murder of his sister. But I think it's good that they ruled out Jackson, right? You rule people out. Eventually, you're going to find the killer. Jackson's final prison sentence began in 2012 after he pleaded guilty to kidnapping, gross sexual imposition, and felonious assault. He was charged on August 12, 2011.

The victim in this case was just 18 years old. She told 14 news, he was going to kill me. I know he was going to kill me. She described how Jackson held her at gunpoint, pulled her into his van, and repeatedly raped her for three hours. Wow. He then got behind the wheel, which gave her the opportunity to escape. She pushed out a door with her feet and landed on the street. She said I was handcuffed and my feet were tied together with shoestring.

And obviously a very harrowing experience for this young woman. But I mean, how amazing is it that she kicks open the door of this van. She's essentially, you know, bound her hands and feet both. And she throws herself out of the van to get away from this guy. But very smart for her, right? Because she knew this was probably not going to end well. No, she said it. I knew this guy was going to kill me.

And she made the decision that she was going to do whatever she could to get away from him. A witness saw what happened and followed the van, leading the police straight to Jackson. Good for that witness, right? Because I think a lot of people probably wouldn't have done that. Well, I don't know if a lot. No, you're probably right. A lot. I don't know if the majority wouldn't do it, but there are people who see something and make the decision that, you know what, I don't want to get. get involved in them. But I just know, you know, for me and you and most people listening, if you see an 18 year old girl, a young girl, hurdle herself out of a moving van, handcuffed and with her feet tied, you're going to jump into action and help her. I know the T-Cat community would jump in.

I think the majority of people would. But I don't think you're incorrect in saying that there are a lot of people who might say, I don't want to get involved in this. I don't know what this is. I'm afraid. This guy and his friend followed the van, led police to it. In prison, Jackson was forensically linked to two unsolved rape cases in Cuyahoga County from 1996. And that's the Cleveland area. Right. Cahahoga County. That's where he lived. On June 5th, 1996, Jackson kidnapped and raped a woman at knife point. According to State v. Jackson, victim MC visited a friend's house in Ohio City. Another friend was supposed to pick her up, but never showed up. M.C. decided to walk home. Jackson pulled up beside her and offered her a ride home. She accepted. He diverted his vehicle to a

dead-in street after he parked. He brandished a knife and threatened to kill M.C. If she didn't perform oral sex on him. She complied and Jackson then raped her. A biker passing by asked if everything was okay. Jackson yelled at him and continued to rape this one. Wow. She paid close attention to what he looked like so that she could give an accurate description. Jackson drove to another street and kicked MC out of the vehicle.

She memorized his license plate and called the police. A Cleveland detective. took a call from dispatch and stopped Jackson's vehicle just minutes later. He identified the occupant as Leo Jackson, Senior. MC was taken to the scene and identified him as the rapist. She was taken to the hospital where a rape kit was conducted. Evidence from the rape kit and Jackson's vehicle was taken to the police department. And here's yet another example of, you know, someone going through just a terrible ordeal,

a very tragic experience, but also, you know, having the wherewithal to, you know, memorize this guy's face, memorize his license plate so that, you know, she could give it to police later on. And that's, that cannot be an easy thing to do with what you're going through. It's actually pretty amazing. It is. It really is. So they have all this evidence. And the detective presented it all to the prosecutor.

but charges weren't pursued and Jackson was released and given back his property, including the knife he used to threaten the victim. Wow. Yeah, I think wow is a good word. Now, I get it. Prosecutors look at a lot of cases and they have to make a decision about whether or not they feel that they have enough evidence. I'm just struggling to figure out how this would not have been enough evidence. Number one, you have the victim's eyewitness account. The description of her attacker. She picked him out. She memorized his license plate. There's a rape kit. There's evidence taken from his vehicle. I don't know. We're not privy to all of it, but it seems like a lot of evidence. You would think it'd be a slam dunk?

No, I'm not saying it would be a slam dunk, but it surely seems like it would be enough to charge this guy. Keep him and his knife off the street? Yeah. Weeks later on July 16th, 1996, Jackson broke into a houseboat and raped a woman at knife point.

Victim MP woke up to a man raping her. She realized she didn't know him and he had a knife. She screamed at him and the man cut her arm with the knife. She called the police after he left.

A rape kit was conducted and the evidence was given to the Cleveland PD. Jackson was not identified at this time. So doesn't it make it that much more heartbreaking when you find out that just weeks after he's not charged with this rape on, you know, this 18-year-old, he rapes another woman. Yeah, right back out doing the same thing. Probably using the same knife that they just gave back to him on October 29th,

2014. Jackson was found guilty of three counts of rape, two counts of kidnapping, and one count of aggravated burglary. He received an additional 20-year sentence. So they did eventually tie, you know, Jackson to these rapes and kidnappings, but I mean, it took what? 16, 17, 18 years? Yeah, long time. I think if you're, you're some of these victims, yeah, you're happy that they got him. But you also had to have been upset that he was let go in the first place and then he went on to do all these other things and then they finally kind of convicted him after he was already in prison. Yeah, because if they could have put him away earlier, many of these other rapes would have never happened. Rapes, murders, you know, who knows what else this guy did that we haven't even

talked about. I mean, obviously, this was an individual who was active over. over many, many years. So as we always say, is it inconceivable that his real number of rapes and murders is higher? I would say probably not. Yeah. On July 5th, 2024,

56-year-old Daryl Rice was riding a bicycle on a highway between St. Louis and Kansas City. When he was hit and killed by a car, he died just 15 days after he was cleared in the Williams and Wynan's murder. Well, that was just not too long ago. No. Just earlier this year, Rice's former defense attorney,

Gerlad Zirkin, said Rice may not have learned he had been cleared. He was very much off the grid as the result of the government's unending persecution and the internet's perpetuation of the false cases against him. So rough that, you know, he was under suspicion for as long as he was. but as we kind of detailed out, right? There was a reason why they suspected this guy. He had done some stuff that, you know, was criminal. Right.

Against women, he just didn't happen to murder Julian Lawley. Well, he wasn't an upstanding citizen. No, he had done some bad stuff. The FBI Richmond Field Office is still seeking assistance with identifying additional possible victims of Leo Jackson Sr. And like I just said, I imagine there's, it could be a big number. It could be. At the time of the murders, he may have been driving in 1984 Chestnut Brown AMC Eagle 30.

He later drove a 1979 Ford, a Connelline 250 van. He was known to use temporary tags, alter license plates, and frequently change vehicles, but not frequently change them to nice vehicles. an AMC Eagle. I haven't heard that in a long time. The Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections also provided a timeline of when he was incarcerated so that he can be excluded as a suspect for unsolved crimes during these times. From January 1984 to February 1989, Jackson was incarcerated in Geaga County, Ohio. from May 1994 to September 1994, he was incarcerated in Cuyahoga County.

From August 2000 to May 2007, he was incarcerated in Cuyahoga County, Ohio. From May 2012 until his death in March 2018, he was incarcerated in Cuyahoga County. So, you know, he spent a lot of time incarcerated. He did almost 20 years. But there were pockets of time. and some pretty large where he was out. And we also don't know what he was doing prior to January, 1984. If you have any information about this case,

you can call the FBI's tip line at 1,800 call FBI. You can also contact your local FBI office, the nearest American Embassy, or consulate, or submit a tip online at tips.fbi.gov. I said it in the beginning. This is going to be a little bit, of a different episode for us because we're talking about a killer who was identified as killing two individuals who we profiled in an unsolved episode.

Yeah. Now, he was never convicted of the murders, but police have come out and said they're 100% sure. I mean, when you think about that number, one in what, 3.2 trillion, I think it was. Right. How can you beat that? Pretty tough to beat that type of DNA odds. It's also very easy to see that Walter Leo Jackson, Sr. was not a good guy. Not at all.

What doesn't surprise me is that he was either let off or it looks like in some instances given maybe pretty short sentences. Kind of lenient. Lenient sentences for, you know, we don't know what all these. crimes are for, but you always kind of have that thought, right, that runs through your mind. What if they would have made a different decision? Okay, we have enough evidence. We're going to charge him. Maybe the jury convicts him. Maybe they don't. But if they do, you play that what if game. What if, you know, all of these crimes that he's committing eventually adds up to someone saying, hey, you know, you're a habitual offender.

So we're going to throw the book at you. We're going to lock you up for a long time. Some of these kind of bug me. And again, we don't know what all the crimes are for, but it does bug me when you see these guys getting away with very violent sexual crimes time and time again, either short sentences, no sentences because they're not even charged, and then they go on to commit more violent sexual assaults and then ultimately end up murdering people.

That's because they build their confidence on the fact that they're not going to get caught. If they do get caught, they're going to get a slap on the wrist and they're going to be right back out there again. So, yeah, I can do three or four years or five years or whatever it is. I don't want to, but I'll do it. And then eventually I'm going to be back out. And you know what? I'm going to pick up right where I left off.

And it seems like what these guys do. What we don't often see is that now I know what happens. It just doesn't happen in the cases that we profile. Hey, I got caught. I did my time. I don't ever want to see the inside of a prison. So I am going to walk the straight and narrow. I'm never going to do anything bad again.

And I'm sure there are a lot of people who make that decision and good for them. It's just the people that we profile don't think that way. Right. You know, the impulses that they have to do these or commit these terrible crimes, I think it far outweighs the negatives of going to prison, being caught, convicted, all of that. Now, whether they do the calculation in their head or not, I don't know. But if they do, they obviously are okay with the risk-reward component of it.

That's it for our episode on Walter Leo Jackson. If you haven't, go back and listen to the unsolved on the Route 29 stalker. Ties in with this case. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, nice and Gibby. This is Monica from Saskatchewan.

second time caller. I wanted to tell you guys that when I first started listening to TCAT, I ended up listening to the 2018 or 2019 episodes first. In one of the first episodes I ever listened to, you two were talking about Ghibi being a Mensa member, and I was actually pretty odd and impressed. That particular discussion you were having was pretty deadpan. But as I listened to more episodes and heard a couple of eye scenes

and a cousin, a pillow or a wolf. I became puzzled. My brow would kind of furrow, and I just couldn't equate some of the things that came out of Gibby's mouth with speech being from a MENSA member. I'm a teacher, and I do notice grammar. At some point, I realized that Ghibi was being in MENSA

was just an ongoing joke with you, Q, and I laughed so hard. You both really had me going. I actually do think that both of you, however, are very intelligent and speak intelligently about crime situation. A case that might be interesting for T-Cat or Patreon, of which I'm a member, is Larry Fisher and the rape and murder of Nurse Gail Miller in Saskatoon. It was a pretty famous case in Western Canada over the years that involved an innocent man, David Milgard being wrongfully convicted for the crime and spending 29 years in prison.

I'll email you some information on the case, Mike. I tell everyone about you guys. I love you. My 20 year old daughter is now hooked. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thanks. All right. Love the voicemail.

You would not be the first person to mistakenly think that Gibby is in Mintsa, that all of that was true. What are you trying to say? That you're allegedly not in Mintsa. I hate to out you like that. I did my whole dissertation on the economical revolution to the anticipated molecular, and that's all I have, folks. That's what I think about that. It's the, that's all I have, folks, was the best part.

Like, the brain, the train was going down the track, and then it, like, it just stopped. It did. It was like, uh, Better get off now. But we appreciate the voicemails very much. We do. But we appreciate the voicemail very much. We do.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Joe from South Carolina. I just finished listening to the Freddie Owens episode. And I was a former corrections officer for the state of South Carolina. And the person that I worked at at the time housed the death row inmate. And I had many of interactions with Freddie Owen. And I can tell you right now, was as a vile human being on the streets as he was behind bars.

He had an extensive rap sheet in prison for threatening employees, whether they were staff nurses or officers. I did remember I heard him one time tell an officer, I will shoot you in the head like I did that expletive. And he would always throw things at people and he was so violent. his door, his cell door had to be behind a cage. You were not allowed to go in that cage unless there was multiple officers, like more than two, more than, sometimes it would be four at a time to, you know, if he had to take him out for like a court run or something. But he was just a very, very violent person in prison. And I totally believe it was just because of his upbringing.

And, you know, now that he's gone, I'm glad that the family of Irene, Graves have closure, much-needed closure that they deserve. Appreciate the show. Keep up the good work. I am team T-Cat. Love you guys both. Keep your head on a slibble and keep your own time ticking. Man, I love hearing those stories where people have a tie-in to somebody in one of the cases we just covered.

Yeah, especially hearing about his time in prison. It doesn't surprise me at all because I just feel like that's who he was. It wasn't going to change, right? once he got into prison, he's still going to be a, you know, a POS, as you say. But I love to hear from people who actually interacted with this guy. And, you know, he was so bad that he's got to be, you know, his door's got to be behind a cage. You got to need two people, sometimes four people. We've got to put him on a dolly and strap him down with the face mask like Hannibal Lecter.

Hey, real quick. Yeah. Back to the previous voicemail regarding Ments. During the in-between, I just discovered that I can solve pie. I know you can eat pie. No, I mean, I discovered pie. You discovered pie? Pie has been around.

You mean like pie the three point blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Okay. You didn't discover pie. It's been around. I took it to another level. Oh. I just need a chalkboard.

Okay. And I can. I'll get you a chalkboard so you can do your goodwill hunting. impression. All right. I got you. We had some mailback. Gillian Smith sent you

some Twizzlers and me some Harley chips from a trip to Alaska. Yeah, well, at least I can eat mine. But mine, I can keep forever. But you can't eat them. They're not the type of chips you can eat. We also figured out that it was Jana, who sent in the fridge magnets.

Yes. And so thank you, Jana. She sent me an email. But that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.