True Crime All The Time - Ward Weaver

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Ward Weaver had a turbulent childhood. He had an abusive father who left when he was young and his mother remarried a man who was also allegedly abusive. Ward modeled those same behaviors in the relationships that he had as an adult. Then, in 2002, when two young girls went missing in Oregon in the span of two months, Ward became the prime suspect.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Ward Weaver. Weaver wasn't shy about telling the media that he knew police believed he had something to do with the disappearances of both Ashley Pond and Miranda Gaddis. He maintained his innocence and told the media that the police were harassing him. But, when he was arrested for another crime, police got the break they needed to prove that Ward Weaver was a murderer. The crimes against these young girls were horrific, as would the reasons behind the murders.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Everyone and welcome to episode 182 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Givie. How are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. You and I just had a pretty good meal. Yeah. A little, uh, it was a little bit for everybody, right? My kids wanted pizza. My wife and I had a calzone and you had a cheese steak. So I did. We had to go to some place that offered, uh, options. Well, it was either that or you're going to make us do that thing you were talking about, the big food thing. The muck bong? Yeah.

My kids are, oh my gosh, my kids are always watching these YouTube videos of muckbang, mokbong. I don't know how you say it. Yeah. But it's basically people just eating to excess, at least that's the ones I've seen. I'm not a fan, but. I can do that with watermelon. Apparently people are making a boatload of money on YouTube doing it. If you can do the mokbong with, mokbong with water.

mong with watermelon, I'm in because I can, I can just sit and tear some watermelon up. Oh yeah. I do like watermelon a lot. Until my stomach is three times the normal size and then then I'll just complain for the next four hours. So I first, I want to start out by wishing all the mothers out there, happy Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day. By the time this drops, most places Mother's Day will be winding down. Right. I hope you had a great one. Yeah, I do too. You know, we appreciate our mothers. I know you and I do. because we talked about it before we started taping. Appreciate, you know, my wife. But, you know, for all of our listeners, there are a lot of moms out there.

And they run the world. And I'm not saying that to pander. I truly believe that. Sounds like a Beyonce song. If it's not, it should be. Yeah. You know, I look at my wife and kind of extrapolate what she does above and beyond what I do.

you know, and I make no bones about it. There's no doubt. She does more work than I do. And I think that case is made for a lot of moms. Yeah. They just do. Yeah. They don't have the leisure of not doing things.

Yeah. So they keep the world running. And we appreciate that. Gibbs, we continue to see at a tremendous amount of Patreon support. Can't thank everyone enough. Yeah, we love it. So let's give some shoutouts.

we had Catherine Tiley. Hey, Catherine. Tanya Fletcher. Hey, Tanya. Renee Rodriguez. Hey, R.R. Rousel Sanderson jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Rousel.

Chris Rosenauer jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Rosenauer? We had Chris Petit. Hey, Chris. Raphael Shelbert. What's going on? Raphael. That's like the turtle, man.

Raphael. John Hill. Hey. It's so close to Jonah Hill. It is very close. I wonder if when they put their reservation request in, they don't kind of lean that way just to make sure they get the table. Melanie Jinks.

Hey, Melanie. Brianna Gordon. What's going on, Brianna. Matthew Perez. Hey, Perez. Carey S. What's going on? Carey S.

Michelle Reichelt. Hey, Michelle. Carmel Castro. ACC. Vanessa Casey. What's going on, Vanessa? Kevin. Hey, Kevin.

Kayla. What's going on? And Kayla. Sally Hooker. Hey, Sally. We appreciate you. Daphne. Hey, Daphne.

Jessica Price. What's going on? Heidi Campke. Hey, Heidi. And last been not least. least Chris Grasso. The Grasso is the, not the hassle.

Yeah. So we appreciate all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Lisa Stober. Man, that's awesome. Yeah, been with us a long time. Yeah, really has.

So we appreciate the new support, the long-term support. We had some amazing PayPal donations as well, Annie Cobb. Oh, hey, Annie. Pia Johansson. Hey, that's a good, Pia Johansson.

Yeah. like that well stacked books hey that's a familiar person you know seeing them around town just it's a weird name for one individual for one individual yeah and then emily o'hagen hey emily so thank you for that as well Gibbs right now we have a brand new episode out on true crime all the time unsolved we're talking about the colthurst family massacre yeah a lot of people call this case the investor right because of the name of the boat that this family owned that they were murdered on. I don't want to give too much away of the episode, but you'll see it listed as a couple of different ways.

We kind of wanted to make sure we had the victim's name in the title. Right. So it takes place up in Alaska, 1982. As Mike mentioned, you know, it's a mass murder of the family and their crew. Yeah, eight people in total. Yeah. So it's got a lot of. different angles to it and we'll take you through all those.

And it's, it's a mysterious case. Now, I do think it's one of those where authorities believe they know who committed this massacre, but they haven't been able to put that individual behind bars. Yeah, well, you've got to have all the right evidence. It's kind of important.

It's probably like solving crime 101. It's right up there, right? Collect the evidence, have evidence. Well, you got to find the right person first. But then once you do that, you've got to have the evidence to put them more. Exactly. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready. We're talking about the crimes of Ward Weaver the third. I think one of the things that drew me to this case is the fact that Weaver's father, Ward Weaver Jr. was also a killer. And that jumped out at me. we're going to find out later in the episode that there's another relative that turns out to be a killer as well. You know, it's one of those cases that people have studied because of the generational killer link,

some asking the questions that you and I have asked before, did the son kill because of his environment growing up or did genetics somehow play a role in this? There's a lot of articles out there about that. those type of questions. Right. Well, when you told me about this case, when I first just heard the name, I'm thinking, why, why we leave it to Beaver? Yeah, I did.

I knew you were going to go there. Ward Cleaver and all that stuff, right, you know. No, he is, he is definitely no Ward Cleaver. That is for sure. Ward Weaver the 3rd was born on April 6, 1963 to Ward and Trish Weaver. The marriage was turbulent. The father, Ward was abusive. And he left the family when young Ward was about three years old.

So I think when a lot of people study this case and they're looking at, okay, what actions of the father, you know, what role did that play on the son? Right. He was only there for about three years of, of this kid's life. So pretty minimal. Pretty minimal.

Ward's mother, Trish later remarried. She ended up moving to Portland. But Ward's stepfather was. was also allegedly an abusive man. So it doesn't seem as though Ward grew up in a great situation. Well, sounds like his environment was not healthy. Yeah, I don't think it was, but he made it through.

And he graduated from high school. It was 1981 when Ward had his first serious brush with the law when one of his female relatives accused him of rape. That's not good. That's never good. That really puts a crimp into the next family reunion. In other holidays. In other holidays, all holidays.

The authorities checked into the allegations, but the relative decided not to press charges. And then it was basically like the authority said, you know what, we're not going to pursue this because they found out Ward had enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve. and he was getting ready to ship out. Problem solved is what they were thinking. You know, there are some documents that actually refer to the fact that this guy's about ready to ship out. Let's shut it down. Well, I do know back in the day, that was the answer to a lot of things, is we can prosecute

or send them to jail or do they want to enlist in one of the services. And if they do, bye-bye? Yeah. Not our problem anymore. or let the service, you know, the army, whoever did with them. Yeah, I don't know if they gave him that option. I think he took that route on his own. He ended up working as a cook on an aircraft carrier, but he didn't make it long.

This is kind of something that you and I see a lot, right? As we're researching cases for TCAT, he was kicked out the next year for drinking and dereliction of duty. And I think the two kind of went hand in hand. He just didn't show up for his ship. because he was drunk. And you think, how hard could it have been to show up for your shift? As a cook on an aircraft?

Yeah, where else you're going to go? I mean, what else is there to do? And do they just have unlimited alcohol on the ships or they're making toilet wine like they do in prison? I really don't know. I think because he probably worked in the kitchen, he might have been making his own brew. He might have. But during his time in the Navy, he did meet a woman named Maria in the Philippines who would later become his first wife.

But Ward was abusive to Maria, pretty much the way his father and stepfather had been. So I think from that respect, Gibbs, you can make that connection, right? Did he pretty much model some of his behavior after what he had seen growing up? Yeah, I think he probably did. Yeah, sure he did. In 1982, the police were called out because Ward had assaulted his then five-month pregnant girlfriend, Maria. She said that Ward slapped her, pulled her hair, and banged her head against the

bed frame. But he'll be arrested for it? Sure. He's arrested. But he's never convicted because Maria refused to cooperate with police. I think that's another thing that you see in this story quite a bit. Right. We've already seen it twice and we just started the episode.

You know, there were chances to press charges and move forward. with obtaining a conviction against this guy. But for whatever reason, the people in his life, the victims decided that they didn't want to do that. Now, was it intimidation on his part? Or in the case of his girlfriend, did she just really love him and think, I don't want to do this because I don't want to lose him? Yeah.

I don't know the answer. Yeah, I think both of those play. And that's how we see that across the board everywhere. You know, I think that's with domestic violence. That's one of the issues that they have out there, right? They don't want to press charges because they love them and they think that maybe they're change or the intimidation. Yeah, and I will add on to that the fact that they're scared.

Yeah. In a lot of instances, people are scared to press charges because they don't know what is going to ultimately happen. Okay, is this person going to go away for 10 years? Or are they going to get a slap on the wrist, which a lot of about. people do and then I'm left to suffer the consequences because they're going to be mad at me. Yeah. They're going to be coming and knocking on my door. Even with that piece of paper, you're going to hang me saying that they can't. Yeah. They're going to still come and knock my door.

Now what? Yeah. So I do think that's a definite problem. It's been a big problem over the years. Later that year, the couple had their first baby, son. But Gibbs, it was some time around the birth of his son when the sins of, of Ward's father came to life. And again, I think this is what makes this episode so interesting. One of the factors. His father was a long haul trucker. Now, he'd left the family a long time ago. Right. He, you know, young Ward had really little to know interaction that I could tell with his dad. Well, because he was like three years old when he left. Yeah. I think his dad had moved on, started a new family. But he was a long haul trucker out in California who, ran up and down the West Coast, he had a very long history of violence. In 1976, he hit a waitress

over the head with a baseball bat. Wow. In the parking lot of the restaurant where she worked, then he tried to abduct this woman, but she was able to get free of Ward. And when I, when I'm talking about Ward now, I'm talking about the Elder Ward. Sure. Before he could drive away, he was caught. He did a three-year prison stint for that. But then in 1981, he picked up a couple of teenagers who were hitchhiking in California. But instead of taking them where they wanted to go, he took them to his home in Oroville, California, which is north of Sacramento. Yeah, a little bit, I don't know how far north, but it's definitely north of Sacramento. Apparently, he had an accomplice, another man who shot the male in the head.

And then Ward Weaver Jr., who is actually Ward Weaver's dad. It's kind of weird when you say it that way. Sure. He kept this teenage girl prisoner in his home for several days. And over that time period, he raped her a number of times. And then he wanted to keep her as his daughter. Yeah, that was strange. I mean, really strange.

He reportedly told her that during the period of time where he kept her prisoner, but he didn't kill her. And eventually he turned her loose. That was also strange because he was arrested, later convicted, and given a 40-year sentence for his crimes. You and I have done a ton of cases. We have seen people kidnap, sexually assault, maybe even do worse than what this guy did. and walk away with hardly anything. Exactly. This guy got 40 years in prison.

Good. Which I'm totally fine with. Yeah. Same year. It just really struck me why he got such a long sentence when we see so many people getting these slaps on the wrist back during that time frame. Yeah. To try to figure out what the difference is, I don't know how you can do that.

Yeah, because this was bad. Yeah. No doubt about it. It's kidnapping. child false imprisonment teenager right you have all the rape the sexual assault charges that would have come along with it you and I have seen all of that oh and you see him get seven years yeah versus and then they're out in two or three yeah so yeah for sure well I hate to say it but I'm I know that it was a tragic event for but I'm sure she's glad that's where it stopped and the rest

of her life she got to move on and I have to worry about being his daughter oh you know yeah I mean granted, she's going to have to deal with that. Sure. Like you and I always talk about. There's going to be therapy. There's going to be emotional things to work through. But she didn't die. And I don't think she escaped.

I think he let her go, which to me was strange because her boyfriend was killed. Right. You would have thought this guy would have known that, okay, I'm going to let this girl go. she knows what I look like. She probably can lead police back to me. And I think that's what ultimately happened. I'm glad he did. Don't get me wrong.

I'm just always confused by why people choose to do some of the things that they did. And I think it's more confusing when you find out that while he was in prison, you know, like a lot of criminals do, Ward apparently bragged about his crimes. he told another inmate that he had murdered a couple in 1981, 18-year-old Air Force cadet Robert Radford, and his 23-year-old fiancé Barbara Levoy. They were having car trouble when they encountered the father Ward Weaver. Instead of helping them out, Gibbs, like a good Samaritan would do,

he beat Robert to death with a pipe. And then he raped Barbara several times in the case. cab of his truck before strangling her. And it was reported that she tried to bite him. And that's when he strangled her with a diaper. With a diaper. One of those old cloth diapers. I'm thinking so. Yeah. Because I don't know how you would strangle a person with a huggy. No. You know, one of the newer style diapers. I think it'd be much tougher. Kids rip those right off themselves. I can't imagine trying to strangled somebody with that. He ended up driving Barbara's body back to his Oroville, California home and burying her in the backyard. Then he poured a concrete slab over the place where he buried her,

telling his wife it was so she didn't get her feet wet. Gibbs, when she went out to hang, you know, the laundry to dry. He was just a caring, caring husband. Sure. Honey, I know you're going out there bare foot or even when you have your your slippers on. Yeah. The dew is really heavy. Not good for your feet or your mutlucks or whatever. Your muck luck. So I'm going to pour this concrete slab. It's all for you. No, it's really to cover up the fact that I just buried a dead body. Yeah. In the back of our house. But I think to take it a step further, it's been reported that he had one of his sons help him, you know, dig her grave that he ultimately covered. The elder ward told prosecutors that he heard voices. His defense team said he was schizophrenic. He was evaluated by a lot

of different doctors. I saw different numbers Gibbs. I saw 18 at one point. Wow. That's quite a bit. Yeah. So they really kind of went all out to try to figure out, okay, what's going on with this guy? does he really have some mental health issues? He was ultimately convicted in 1984 and sentenced to death. But over the years, he has filed a number of appeals and he's still alive and well, sitting on San Quentin's death row at the age of 76. So he murdered these people almost 40 years ago. And he's still breathing, even though a jury convicted him and gave him a,

sentence of death. But we know how that works. Well, and we definitely know how it works in California. Sure. Yeah. I don't even think they're putting anyone to death right now in California and haven't been for some time.

I don't think so. Yeah. So this is interesting, right? It definitely was to me. We're talking about Ward Weaver and we're going to detail his crimes. But then you get into the fact that his father was a killer. Right. And is sitting on death row.

The other thing. that's very interesting about his father, authorities believe he's most likely responsible for many more crimes and murders. I mentioned the fact that he was a trucker. Yeah, long haul trucker. So back in the 80s, when all this came out, they went through his truck logs and they tried to match his logs and his travels to unsolved murders. And what's been reported is that they found 26 matches. Now, what is a match? Basically, he has known to have been in the area at the time that an unsolved homicide occurred. Right.

Even if it's not all 26. You just 50% of them. Yeah. He could be responsible for five, 10, 15, 20 more murders that he just wasn't willing to cop to. But I think most people would believe that he is guilty of a few of those. Sure. Some don't know the number. break. Definitely some. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break. You know, one of the things I love about

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so it never gets old. Best Fiends treats the game like a service for their players. And it doesn't require the internet to play, so you don't need to worry about Wi-Fi or using your cell data. I love the fact that they have new monthly theme challenges, and there's tons of cute characters to collect. Best Fiends has thousands of levels already. already. With new levels, events, and characters added every month, it's hours of fun right at your

fingertips and you can even play offline. With over 100 million downloads and tons of five-star reviews, Best Fiends is a must play. Download Best Fiends free on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the R Best Fiends. So I know we got a little sideways there with Ward's father, but how can you not talk about that? The father of the criminal, your profiling, is on death row for murder. But let's get back to the younger ward. In 1984, he and Maria moved to California. And they did this while his father was going through his trial.

So all this stuff had come out. Ward found out that his dad was a killer. He was going to go to trial. He said, you know what? I'm moving to California to be close to my dad, even though I didn't know him. Yeah. And I want to make sure I bring my name with me. So when I say my name somewhere, they'd be like, oh, that's Ward Weaver.

I couldn't imagine having the same name at that time. Yeah, I actually never even thought about that part. But he went to visit his dad. He attended, I think, pretty much his entire trial. Oh, really? Yeah. He was there. He was really there for his father during this period of time, which I thought was interesting.

Because this is a guy that essentially abandoned him when he was very young, about three years old. And now he's not saying, hey, son, I want to come back into your life. He's saying, and so is everybody else, hey, you're a murderer. Yeah. Your dad's a murderer. But he still felt compelled that he needed to be near his dad and try to help him in any way he could. During this time, Ward and Maria got married. And they had another son.

But this relationship gives, I think it was always rocky. They were on. They were all. The kids were sometimes taken from them by social services. The kids were fostered at different points in time. I think they struggled financially as well because by 1986, they were living with a family named the Ordona's near Fairfield, California. So they couldn't make it on their own.

Yeah. They had to find a family that would take them in. And this family did. But one night after fighting with his wife, Ward began drinking. He was doing some drugs. And at some point, he ended up at the local bowling alley. 16-year-old Jennifer Ordona and her younger sister, Jocelyn. They went to go pick him up.

As they were driving, Ward had them pull over. He said he needed to answer nature's call. Well, that was just a ruse. because all of a sudden he attacked these two girls. Gibbs, he hit Jocelyn in the head with a 12-pound chunk of concrete. That's a big ass piece of concrete. I'm thinking it's basically like a concrete block.

Sure. Yeah. Then he grabbed Jennifer in a headlock. Jennifer would later say in interviews that she said to him, Ward, what are you doing? It's me, Jennifer.

Basically, this is a person that had been living with them. They thought of them as house guests. Right. As friends. Yeah. Family almost. And now all of a sudden this man's attacking both of them. Amazingly, both girls were able to escape and Weaver was arrested the next day.

He was convicted and sentenced to three years in prison. When he got out of prison, his wife was waiting on him. They continued along in their marriage. But again, don't think it was ever really all that good. There are some reports that during the 90s, Ward Weaver got involved in selling drugs, meth, cocaine. Maria filed a restraining order against him in 1993 and then she divorced him.

By 1994, Ward Weaver was 31 years old, divorced, living with his 18-year-old girlfriend in Portland, in Oregon. So he got out of California, went back to Oregon, but nothing changed with him. No, it never does. No, police were called. He was thrown in jail after his girlfriend accused him of beating her with a cast iron skill. Got to be a little rough. Yeah. I mean, I used one this morning to fry up my bacon. Yeah. They got some weight to him. Yeah, they do. Yeah. You normally have the weight of it on the bottom, don't they? I don't know. Yeah.

I don't look at the bottom because I'm usually focused on the goodness that is crackling inside. Yeah. But, you know, that's stuff you see in cartoons when we were kids. Yeah. I still think that's strange that cartoons were as violent as they were. They really were. Tom and Jerry, man. I mean, everybody was getting hit on the head, falling off a cliff, smacking people in the

face with cast iron skillads. Roadrunner, man. But when you really think about trying to be a small woman with a cast iron skillet, you're a freaking monster. You are. I mean, you shouldn't be hitting a woman anyway, let alone beating on her with a cast iron skillet.

But again, Gibbs, he wasn't convicted because his girlfriend told prosecutors that she was too scared to testify against him. And again, I'll say it again. think that has happened a lot over time because women just really weren't convinced that something was going to be done, right?

That them testifying against the person that attacked them was going to result in some type of heavy penalty. Yeah. I think too often it didn't. And so they were left to defend themselves again because this person is now even more angry that they called the cops on them. They actually later got married, but divorced in 2000. Shocked. Shocked that they divorced. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little shocked that they got married, I guess. That too. It's a double shock. I mean, I think for most people, when you take a beating with a cast iron skillet,

the next move, no matter how many months or years, you know, go by, is not to make plans to walk down the aisle. it's to make plans to get the hell out of the dog. Exactly. But I don't know the situation and, you know, not here to judge. No, you can't do that. Well, I can judge Ward Weaver because. Every time. Yeah, because he's a bad guy.

I'm not judging this woman because I wasn't there and I don't know the relationship or or what was going on. But all of this brings us to 2002. Ward Weaver is living in a rented house on Beaver Creek Road in Oregon City. Oregon with his girlfriend and his 12 year old daughter. So he had a number of kids. I didn't go through all of them and who he had them with and all of that. But it was on January 9th, 2002. 12 year old Ashley Pond disappeared while she was on her way to her school bus stop. And apparently the bus stop was at the top of a hill. It was reported to be about an eight minute walk. Where I live, that's a long

way to get to the bus stop. That is a long way from where you are for sure. From where I live, because I live in a subdivision. Normally the bus stop, if it's not right in front of somebody's house, it's a house or two over. You're not walking very far at all to get to the bus stop in my subdivision. On top of that, it was very close to Ward Weaver's house. And when Ashley didn't make it to school, obviously that caused a big uproar you're going to get a call from the school right saying hey your child didn't make it an investigation into her disappearance began Gibbs they passed out flyers they used search dogs they canvassed neighborhoods and areas but there was no sign of ashley pond now actually lived in a lower income apartment complex called the newle creek village apartments obviously

not far from Ward Weaver's house, right? It's down the hill from where the bus stop was and where Ward's house was. But Ashley and Ward's daughter were friends. And Ashley had spent quite a bit of time at Weaver's house. In 2001, she even accompanied Ward, his girlfriend and his daughter, on a trip to California. And she had lived in that house for a couple of months in 2001 when her father went to jail on charges of abusing her. So she was very well known to the family. She had been over quite a bit for sleepover. She'd gone on vacations.

She'd even live there four months at a time. So very familiar. Yeah, very. So they're searching for her. It's a big story, right, in the area. But then another girl went missing on March 8th, 2002, 13 year old Miranda Gaddis. disappeared while she was on her way to the bus stop. And Gibbs,

this was the same bus stop. You know, Miranda and Ashley, they lived in the same apartment complex. So police were like, what is going on? Someone's targeting this area. Well,

and it's why I mentioned, right? This was a lower income. Sure. Apartment complex. Police, when they started searching for Miranda, they did some door to door.

searches inside that apartment complex. They did the same type of searches they had done for Ashley. But just like with Ashley, there was no sign of Miranda. The FBI came out and said that they believed both girls were kidnapped and they offered up a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the kidnapper. Pretty hefty reward. Yeah, 50 grand. You really don't hear that number.

The search for both girls became a. nationwide search. I mean, they had tips pouring in from all over the place. Some came in from as far as Florida. And as we all know, that's pretty far from Oregon. Extremely when you're extremely far. When you're in the United States, it's about as far as you can probably get. Diagonal. Yeah. Miranda and Ashley were friends. I mentioned it. They lived in the same apartment complex. Miranda was also friends with Weaver's daughter. And she had stayed over at the house. a few times. I don't think she'd been there as many times as Ashley had or four as long. And the three girls were also on the same dance team. Yeah, they definitely knew each other.

Now, the, you know, how good are friends they were. I mean, some of that's up for interpretation, but there's no doubt that they were friendly because you don't stay over at somebody's house. You don't have sleepovers. Right. Unless it's somebody you like and, you know, you want to spend time with. You're not inviting that person you don't like over. Yeah. Hey, come on over. I hate you. I hate you so much.

Come on over. It's not like there's a quota that says, I've got to have four people. I don't like this dude, but I need a fourth. Yeah, but you're not trying to. One out of the four has to be somebody I don't like. The rest of you have to be the ones I do. You're not trying to put together a pickup basketball game where you need X number of people. Right.

Now, I will say this, Gibbs, looking back at my two girls when they were younger, they had a lot of sleepovers with whoever was their best friend at the time. But that changed a lot. Oh, it sure did. Over the years. Sometimes it changed from school year to school year. Yeah. Sometimes they would go two or three years at a stretch.

When my daughter, sometimes it would change that next weekend. Yeah. You're like, oh, oh, you guys are not, your guys fell out. You're on the outs. Yeah. The sleepover didn't go well. Yeah. Something got said.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. But I think at the time, it's safe to say that they were friendly with each other. I don't think there was any animosity. I don't know if they were super good friends. But we'll get into some other particulars. After Ashley disappeared, Miranda was actually interviewed by a local television station about her friend's disappearance. It's eerie to think that Ashley disappeared in January.

Miranda, you can see the interview out there. She's talking to a reporter about how hard it is on her, the fact that her good friend has disappeared. And then two months later, she vanishes. How eerie, man. Very eerie. It is. It's eerie to watch.

You know, both girls were loved by friends and family. They were typical young girls. They loved NSYNC, as I know you do. Of course. But they had normal problems. Yeah. Like all young girls have.

I will say, according to friends and family, though, they were very hopeful for the future. They had dreams. They had aspirations. Got to have hope, man. Yeah, they had things they wanted to do. But here's the issue they had. Both girls had been sexually abused by men in their lives. I mentioned Ashley.

Right. She was abused by her biological father. He received a sentence of probation. in 2001. Probation. That's it. Now, again, I don't know all the details of the case, but it doesn't seem right to me. Miranda was sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend who did admit to it.

And in 1999, he received a 75-month sentence. Those are pretty big differences in sentences, right? One's no jail time in probation. The other one, you know, you're doing six years. Yeah. And three months on top of them. In the same area. So what's the underlying factors there?

And again, I don't have all those details. There had to have been something that was different. You know, maybe it was that this boyfriend admitted. Yeah. To what he had done. And her father didn't, but the evidence was there. I don't know. You would like to believe that the cases weren't super similar and one person got probation

and the other one got 75 months. Yeah, that would be a problem. I think we'd all have a problem with that. Absolutely. So investigators began looking into connections, right? You know they're going to do that. What connections did these two girls have with whoever? And one name that popped up was Ward Weaver, not shocking.

He knew both Ashley and Miranda. The problem is there were a lot of other names as well. Gibbs, I mentioned this lower income apartment complex. There were scores of men that lived in this apartment complex that police had to consider as possible suspects. But they were definitely looking at Ward Weaver. They just couldn't put together the evidence they needed. And one of the big issues I believe they began looking at Weaver, was because Ashley Pond had made allegations against him several months prior to her

disappearance that he had molested her. The thought was that, okay, did this guy feel like he had to eliminate Ashley to keep from going to jail? Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So, I mean, he was definitely on police radar, I think, very early on. And to me, the strange thing about it, Gibbs is. that Ward Weaver wasn't shy about telling people that he was a suspect in the disappearance

of both these girls. He did interviews, and I mean a lot of interviews with the local television stations where he acknowledged that he knew police were looking at him as a suspect. He even said that he had failed to polygraph tests. But at the same time, he maintained that he had nothing to do with the disappearance of either girl. This went on for a number of months. Weaver putting on a show for anyone that was willing to interview him, talking about the fact that he and his family were being harassed by the cops for no reason. So I have a very short clip, but it does include Ward Weaver talking. So wherever we can, you know, I always like to hear directly from who we know is the killer.

See, we were on to Ward Weaver, based on a tip we received about the bushy-haired neighbor at the top of the hill. And it wouldn't take long in the course of this conversation to learn why. They are hassling my family, my friends. They are saying that I am the number one suspect. He told me he flunked two polygraph tests, but also walked me through his home to show he had nothing to hide. So that was an interview. I think he did with KATU TV. The interview was much longer.

But as it goes along, it starts to give away, you know, the ending of the case. So I just wanted to cut it off so that people could get an idea of the type of interviews that he was doing. I know one part of it that I excluded. He was taking this reporter around through his house. and he was laughing about the fact that, yeah, the girls had been over to his place. They had stayed the night. His daughter had a lot of sleepovers. He made one comment that said, you know, you couldn't at certain points, you couldn't walk anywhere without stepping on the body.

Interesting. And I thought it was interesting. I had to leave it out though because it just didn't fit with where we are in the story. Right. But he did use the word body. And that's going to be strange once we get to the point where, you know, these girls are found. Exactly. So where it stands right now, you know, I think he's probably suspect numero uno on police radar,

but they don't have anything on him, right? Concrete to arrest him, to charge him, nothing. But then in August of that same year, something happened that changed the entire. course of the investigation. On August 13th, Ward Weaver was arrested on the charge of raping the girlfriend of his 19-year-old stepson, Francis. So what happened was Francis called 911 to report the fact that Ward had raped his girlfriend, but he didn't stop there. He also said that his stepfather had confessed to him that he kidnapped and murdered both Ashley Pond and Miranda Gattis. He was just a monster, man.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know what else to call this guy. Apparently, this girlfriend of Ward Weaver's stepson was seen running naked except for a tarp. So she had a tarp draped over her. But other than that, she's completely naked running down the street, screaming for her life. Wow. running from his house. Yeah.

So something happened, right? People don't just, unless they're going streaking. That's you. To KFC. Yeah. People just don't run down the street naked screaming for no reason. No. You're running because something bad happened and you're getting a hell out of dogs.

That's right. Trying to get away from it. So Weaver was arrested on the rape charge and held on a million dollar bail. And it was sometime after this that the stepmother. of Ashley Pond went to Weaver's home and she started putting signs in his yard. One of the signs said, dig me up because I think she was getting completely frustrated. Sure. That this guy was the number one suspect, but police weren't doing what she thought they should

be doing to, you know, find Ashley. the other thing is that it had come out, that Ward Weaver had poured a concrete slab behind his house just after Ashley Pond had disappeared in January. Well, that'd be hard for me not to go over there with my sledgehammer and just start breaking that slab up right then. I'm careful middle of the night, you know? I'd want to break it up and start my own dig at that point.

So, yeah, I was kind of struck by it because, number one, the timing is strange based on the fact. that she had just gone missing. Number two, it's January in Oregon. And if I remember correctly, the reports were that it was cold as you know what. Kind of a strange time to me to pour a concrete slab. Typically not the time you would pour concrete for sure. No. Right. You know, it's not going to. Not if you had your choice. But if you had to because of another reason, then you don't have a choice. Right. So police have Weaver, but they only have him on the rape charge at the, point, they have his stepson saying that he murdered these two girls. But other than that,

they don't have the evidence they need. The FBI at that time, they were saying to papers that they had narrowed down the suspect pool to 10, maybe 20 people, but they wouldn't name any of them. Now, we know Ward Weaver was on that list. But really, Weaver's arrest on the rape charges, that was exactly what the authorities needed to get a search warrant. for his home. They started inside his house and, you know, police were seen by neighbors hauling out the contents of his home. Then on Saturday, August 24th, police discovered a body inside a box in a shed out behind his house. And it was just the very next day that authorities made the announcement that dental records confirmed the body was that of Miranda Gattis. And I heard

a clip of the announcement, it was very short. And it's a clip like that you would hear in any case, right? When the police come out and they make an announcement, what really got to me about this one was that you can hear people audibly gasping and, you know, crying immediately once the announcement was made. Because it was that bad. Yeah. Hearing that information and I think most people knew. Yeah. That it wasn't going to be good. And most like, the body was going to be that of either Miranda or Ashley, but to hear it confirmed... Just was enough to drive it over the edge. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it was a gut punch, I think, to everybody in attendance, they made a second announcement. And this one was huge as well. It was that they had found a second body in a barrel under a concrete slab behind Weaver's house.

and it was later confirmed that it was the body of Ashley Pond. So now they got him, Gibbs, right? They got some evidence against Ward Weaver. He was charged with the aggravated murders of both Ashley and Miranda. And they tacked on a bunch of other charges, including sexual abuse of a corpse and a few other things in interviews from jail. Because this guy just could not stop talking to the media. He liked talking. Oh, yeah, and always seems like he does.

And he also still says, hey, I'm innocent. Yeah, he maintained his innocence in all of his interviews. He told one reporter from KATU TV, I really don't care what people think or what they believe. I know what's in black and white and what is coming to me. I'm getting out of this mess and I'm getting my baby girl back. when a jury comes back with not guilty, I'm going to be the first one out that door to say,

kiss my butt. I just think it's funny when someone says they don't care what other people think, but yet they're always in the media trying to drive. Home the fact that they're listening. Yeah. So if you don't care, then why are you trying to do that? You know, to me,

that's one of those things that a lot of people say, but very few people actually mean. Right. They might think it. But deep down, people care. They do. Most people do. What other people think, it's why we shave.

It's why we shower. We don't wear the same clothes every day. I mean, I do, but most people don't. I was just thinking, you really don't care, do you? No, I really don't. You haven't show, shaved or any of that in a while. I'm pretty sure that's the same. I know, you put a different shirt on for Patreon, but outside of that,

everything else is the same you had on. Always. No, I think it's why my daughter's put on. makeup. I mean, everybody cares to some degree. You don't want to look like a slob. You don't want people to think bad about you. You might think that you don't care. But deep down, people do. Well, people don't realize is that even when there was no COVID, I'm still wearing a mask because, you know, the smell, you wear that mask to try to. What are you just trying to say? I got the Brad Pitt thing going on. I don't know what the Brad Pitt. Oh, you've never heard those stories? No, is he got some

little B.O. going on? Yeah, there were stories back in the day that Brad Pitt had serious B.O. Really? Like on the set, he wouldn't shower. He wouldn't use deodorant. He's like El Natural. Just let the body take care of itself. Now, it's just stories. Obviously, I can't confirm. I'd have to call up my buddy DiCaprio to confirm. And check with him. Or my good friend. Yeah, Jennifer. But those are stories that I remember from back in the day. Yeah. Thank goodness. You don't smell like that. No. No. No. Because I care. I care what you think about me in some small way. Very, very small way.

The other thing that Ward definitely did in these interviews is he did not the fact that he had any type of sexual relationship with Ashley Pond and said, you know what? He wasn't mad at her for making the allegations against him. Because again, that was the big thing that everybody was kind of thinking, okay, it's on. record, she made these allegations. So who would have the reason to want something to happen to her? Well, Ward Weaver. He doesn't want to go to jail for child molestation. Not at all. Over the next couple of years, Weaver was evaluated by mental health professionals as to whether or not he was fit to stand trial. He was a difficult defendant, I think, to work with as far as, you know, his attorneys went, he wouldn't let them make a request to have the trial move to a different county. He tried to fire, and maybe was successful firing some, but he was always trying to fire his court-appointed attorneys. Ultimately, a judge ruled in the summer of 2004 that

Ward Weaver was fit to stand trial, and prosecutors had come out and said that they were definitely going after the death penalty. So this dragged out for a while. So this dragged out for a while. Wow, right? Really, you know, a couple of years. But I think as Weaver realized that the trial was getting closer and closer, he began to panic about the death penalty. Let's not forget, his father was sitting on death row. Well, that's true. So as the trial date near, Weaver decided to take a plea. He ended up pleading guilty to 17 counts of murder, rape, sex, abuse, the abuse of a court. There was all kinds of charges levied against him. Well, then he also pleaded guilty to the attempted murder of his attempted murder and rape of his stepson's girlfriend. Yeah, because they had him on that first. I mean, he still hadn't gone to trial on that. Now, in exchange for his guilty plea, prosecutors took the death penalty off the table and he was sentenced to two life terms with no possibility of parole.

I think what we lose out on in, you know, him entering the guilty plea is I just couldn't find a lot of the details. And maybe that's okay in this case. Maybe we don't want to know every single detail of what happened to this 12 year old and this 13 year old girl. Right. I think we're okay. I think we're okay without it. So Weaver was sent to serve out his two life sentences at the Eastern Oregon prison. In 2007, Gibbs, he was stabbed by another inmate who was a prison barber.

And you and I have talked about this many times. There are a lot of inmates that don't take kindly to guys that hurt children, right? You can kill as many people as you want. But when you mess with a child, you will rub a certain population of the prison the wrong way. You're knocked down a bunch of rungs on the ladder. It's like the worst thing you can possibly do. Yeah. I mean,

I'm with you. Murder is murder. It's bad. But there is something about murder of the innocent. You know, when you're talking about a, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12 year old girl, I mean,

those are innocent people. They haven't been alive long enough to, you know, do anything to deserve being hurt. Not that most of us do or have done anything to deserve being hurt, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, I hate to say that all lives aren't equal because I do believe they are, but there's no doubt that people look at crimes against children in a different life. They look at them as more heinous, I think, than the murder of an adult.

They just do. Their children. Yeah. And we all can just feel that a little deeper, you know, because when we talk about this right now, I'm thinking about my kids and they were that age or your daughters at that age, you know, and I don't, I just don't, I can't grasp someone doing that to a kid ever. Well, I will tell you one thing. You know, when I was researching this case, especially when you think about how these two girls were taken, they were taken on the way to the bus stop. Well, how many of our kids every morning during normal school get up and walk out to the bus stop? That's a very scary thing.

Yeah. It's one of the times where I think our kids are most vulnerable. Now, I used to watch my daughters out the window. Not everybody can do that. Some parents are gone. They have to be at work at a certain time. And that's earlier, let's say, than their kids need to get on the bus. So the kids are at home.

They're expected to walk to the school bus. Right. The parents aren't able to sit there and watch them. It's a vulnerable time. Yeah, extremely vulnerable. Not trying to scare anybody, but it did scare me as I was researching the case. So back to this prison barber. He was upset with Ward Weaver.

He didn't like the fact that he had killed, you know, young children. So one of the articles I read said that the prison barbers weren't allowed to have scissors, which makes a lot of sense. Sure. Pretty easy to kill somebody with a pair of scissors. You're also quite vulnerable when you're getting your haircut, which you'll find out later when I give you. I cut my whatever you're going to do in my hair.

Yeah, when I give you a trim. So they only allow them to use clippers, right, to cut hair. Well, you can give somebody a kind of a nasty burn, not a burn, like a cut. if you've ever cut yourself with clippers, but it's not like scissors. You can't jam it through somebody's neck. Yeah, you could, you could make me hurt a little bit, but you're not going to kill me. No, you're not going to kill somebody with a, probably with a set of clippers. Maybe if you had the cord and you decide to wrap it around my neck.

Well, yeah, that's different. But this guy, apparently, he had made a shank or a shiv. And again, I always get confused on which one. But then he took that and he either shanked or shived Weaver in the neck and shoulder, but he survived. He didn't die. Right now, Weaver is currently listed as being at the Two Rivers Correctional Institution in Umatilla, Oregon.

Hopefully I'm saying that correctly. Better than I would. But he's never getting out, right? Two life sentences, no parole. He will die in prison as he should. years after Weaver went to prison, Miranda's sister, Mariah, said that she had some communication with Ward Weaver while he was in prison. And he told her exactly why he killed Ashley and Miranda.

And this is all according to Mariah. She's done interviews. Sure. She said that Ward said he killed Ashley Pond because he was scared of the outcome of the rape allegations. I think that's was pretty much what everybody thought had happened. He told her that he killed her sister Miranda because he was scared that she had seen him do something and would be able to turn him in. I don't know if he elaborated on what that was, but Mariah said that Weaver told her he lured Miranda into his home by telling her that Ashley was inside.

in that she wanted to come home. Remember, Ashley had been missing for two months. Right. So now you have her friend Miranda being lured in by this monster under the guys that, hey, Ashley's in the house. She's been here. But now she's ready to come home. Come on that.

But she wasn't in there. She was already dead. And then he killed Miranda. He's something, man. Yes. I think this is an interesting. but very sad case, right? Extremely sad that two little innocent girls lost their lives at the hands of this monster.

Both girls had dealt with quite a bit of trauma in their lives at a young age, but they had people in their lives that dearly loved them. I don't think either of them had the easiest of childhoods. And the other thing that I couldn't help thinking about as I was researching this case was, you know, what both of these girls went through in the last minutes of their lives. The fear they must have felt. And if it's true that Ward lured Miranda in by pretending that her friend Ashley was ready to come home, I mean, it's just all heartbreaking.

I couldn't imagine, man. Poor they. And Ward Weaver. How in the world did he think he was really going to get away with, you know, these things that he did? there was no full-blown trial like we have in a lot of cases where all the evidence was presented or at least, you know, it was nothing that I found. Right.

But obviously they had the two bodies. They found at his house. But you think about the fact that his house was so close to the bus stop where both these girls were headed when they disappeared. You think about the fact that his daughter was friends with both girls and that, they had stayed over for sleepovers. And then obviously you have the allegations of molestation. I just don't know how he thought he was going to get away with it. Well, because he probably thought like most of them do. He's invincible. Yeah, or maybe he wasn't thinking at all. Well, that's true too. And that's what led to his downfall. Thankfully, I mean, if he had planned it out better or picked victims that were unknown to him,

him, he may have gotten away with his crimes. Obviously, we don't want that to have happened. Right. And I think the crimes and actions of Ward Weaver, they kind of stand out on their own. But when you couple them with the crimes and actions of his father, you really have to take notice of that. You and I are always talking about environmental factors when it comes to killers. Right. How much of their future criminal actions were influenced by their childhood. environment. We talked about it, right? In this case, Ward's father was out of the picture when he was probably three years old or so. So how much could he really have picked up from him? His stepfather,

though, was reportedly abusive as well. So there's that angle. Yeah. And then you have the genetic angle. And I think that's intriguing as well. Scientists have been studying this connection for years. there have been brain scan studies that show, you know, a lot of these killers, they have something in the part of the brain that controls violent urges. But there's something wrong with it, right? They can't control their violent urges because there's something wrong with their brain. There's definitely something to that. How it happens, I don't know. But as far as I know, there's been no scientific proof that there's one single gene.

that can be passed down from, let's say, father to son or, you know, mother to son or mother, daughter, or whatever, that is going to make someone a killer. It just, they haven't been able to prove that that exists. You and I aren't experts on the subject by any means. Genealogy? Genealogist. Did you just say genealogy? And then even genealogy.

Yeah. It's still not the study of genealogists. Gene. I'm just throwing fancy words out, man. Fancy words that don't fit. Okay. I know. Are we on that part of the show now? Genia. Isn't that like putting together your family tree? Trying to earn my money here, man. Trying to earn my money.

Hey, what you got to do? I did find one article in psychology today. It was pretty recent. It was from 2018 that said, no one really knows the answer for sure. The article said, the most likely answer is that the majority of the most prolific and dangerous killers were genetically.

disposed to antisocial behavior. Okay, I buy that. Sounds plausible. Anti-social behavior doesn't make you a killer. No. So, right, they're not genetically disposed to being a killer, but antisocial behavior is not good. When you couple that with the fact that a lot of these people grow up in an environment that cultivated for them a disregard for the lives of others, okay.

now you're in trouble, right? You've got this anti-social behavior. You have no regard. Yeah. For the lives of other people. Got a little compound effect there. Yeah. That's not good. Right. And I think adding to all of this is that one of Ward's stepson's Francis, that's the one who turned him in, that's the one who made the 911 call, he wound up in prison as well. Francis Weaver, he was in trouble pretty much his entire life too. But he was charged with the 2014 murder of a man named Edward Spangler. He was later convicted and received a life sentence. Gives, that's fascinating to me.

I know he's not biologically related to Ward Weaver, but it's almost like there's three generations here of murderers. He's a stepson. So he grew up around Ward Weaver for however many years of his lives. So there you have, you know, that environmental. Environmental. Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people think it is, right?

You've talked about it before. You know, modeling behavior on what you saw as a child day in and day out, right? If you saw abuse perpetrated by your dad against your mom, at some point, do you think that's how life works. I think some of these people do. Well, absolutely. I think that's, I think that's the norm.

That's just how things work. And so when they become an adult, they're modeling that same behavior, right? They're abusive. They think, okay, this is how I have to do it. Right. But what are the odds that you would have three individuals? It's a weird trifecta.

Three generations wind up in prison for murder. Yeah, it's very strange. It's part of what made to me this case so fascinating. Yeah. But that's it. That's it for the case of Ward Weaver, the third I'll call him. The third. You got Ward Weaver Jr.

Right. He's actually his dad, which is always strange to me. Yeah. Because the third comes after Junior. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? I was here. Hello, Mike.

Hello, Gibi. This is Kat. I'm calling from Macau, a tiny city in South China, just next to Hong Kong. I've been listening to T-Cat and T-Cat Unsult for a little over a year, I guess. This is such a small city or a small place that you don't really get to have a commute anywhere. Travel times usually top at 10 to 15 minutes. I don't really like to be left hanging. Like, I don't like to listen to something for 10 minutes,

then I'm forced to stop it for the next eight hours during work. So what I do is I schedule night walks or. runs so that I can listen to one entire episode and one go. And yes, I've been leading a healthier lifestyle this way. So thank you very much for running this podcast and giving me a reason to go out and walk and run. So hang on in there. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Really good. English. Yeah, her English was excellent. But just another byproduct Gibbs of the podcast that we never knew would happen. We are helping out with her fitness regimen.

She's scheduling those walks and runs. Yeah. That's good. I'm not. No, you don't schedule anything. Why schedule things, just not having to do with physical fitness? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I need to. I just don't. Because you have all the equipment. I do. The availability. And I got Arnold standing on, he's on standby. I know, he keeps calling me and saying, why does he not answer?

Well, he goes, Does he say it like that? What doesn't? What does Mike? No, don't I can't. I'd be back. That's what he says. Just tell Mike, I'd be Bach.

Did you just start an Australian accent? I did, man. I just, yeah. And then morph it to I'll be back? Yeah, I'd be Bach. Okay. I'll be Bach. You know he, he's Austrian.

Yes. Not Australian. I recall that now. Okay. Yeah. He grew up in the mountains. Just check. I'm just checking.

Yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Amanda from around Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. I'm just calling with a case for you. His name is Joseph D. Miller, and he is currently imprisoned at the Camp Hill Prison near Harrisburg. He is known as Dolphin County's most prolific serial killer. I had just found out about this case not too long ago. He murdered several women in the early 90s and confessed to two more in 2016.

This is a case that I would love really for you guys to touch on. I have been reading some up on it, but not everything. If you guys want to look into it, that would be awesome. I am neither Team Mike or Team Givie. I am fans of both y'all. I have been listening for a good long time now. I don't even know how long. Ever since I downloaded the Stitcher app and found you guys,

you were one of the first podcasts that I started listening to and haven't stopped listening to. So, okay, so Joseph D. Miller, Dolphin County's Most Prolipic serial Killer from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Thanks. All right. Awesome. I've checked that out. Yeah. She wasn't Nebby at all and she was from PA. Nebby. You know what's significant about Harrisburg, Pennsylvania? The Civil War? No. Like the city itself in relation to the state of Pennsylvania. Capital? It is the capital.

Dropped a little knowledge on you. I didn't. I did not expect you to get that. What did you think? I was going to say Philadelphia? No, I just didn't expect you to put that one together. Yeah. Because it's one of those where, you know, there's some states like that that you think, oh, there's no way that's the capital. It has to be. Yeah, one of the bigger cities.

Philly, Pittsburgh. Like Kentucky, Frankfurt. Frankfurt's like this small little, not small, but it's not a really big place. You would think it'd be Lexington or something like that. Yeah, Lexington or Louisville. Or Louisville. Or that place too. Right next door.

Hi, Mike. Hi, Givie. This is Michelle from Mustang, Oklahoma. And I was just listening to your episode about Shauna Nelson. And Gibby mentioned a song torn between two lovers, and I knew immediately the song he was talking about. And it was released in 1976 by Mary McGregor. It was written by Peter from Peter Paul and Mary. And I believe at some point, Olivia Newton-John may have released a version of it as well.

But anyway, if you Google Mary McGregor, torn between two loves, you will find the song. Have a great day. Thanks, guys. All right, Gibb. So we got a bunch of emails, voicemails about this, right? Because people love it when you bring something up. I thought you were actually full of it. I know you. But people had your back and they said, no, Gibby was right. So I Googled it and here it is. All right. That's all I can listen of it because it's not a good song. apologies to any of you torn between two lovers fans, but the lyrics are brutal too, dude.

If you listen to the whole thing, is it? She's married to one guy, but the other guy is filling a hole that has to be filled. I mean, it's just a very strange... Probably stuff that happens every day out in the world.

No, it is, but just to sing about it, I thought it was kind of brutal. She's like, you know what? I'm going to sing about how I really feel because I know there's other women and then guys out there both sides that feel the same way. Yeah.

Well, you were right. I admit that, but I will say that song is not good. Not in your playlist ever, huh? No, it's not. And I'm still shocked that you would even know what it is. I mean, was this a roller disco song that you remembered from the 70s? I just don't know why that would pop into your head. You know, I remember hearing it, my mom and dad played this kind of stuff all the time,

you know, when they were hanging out with their friends all. the weekend and or the weekends and uh yeah just that one week that's just that one weekend it's stock forever yeah but that's it that we got a lot on the fact that you were right about it so i had to go check it out hi mike and give me my name is autumn no i am from indiana and i just learned about your podcast um a couple months ago and i've caught up on all of the true time all the time, but I'm not caught up on all of all right now, but I just want to say I absolutely love you guys and your podcast is one of the podcasts keeping me staying during this quarantine, even though I am still working.

But hopefully everything starts opening up to it. And thank you so much for being so awesome giving us these awesome podcasts. Keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Have a great week. All right. Awesome. We appreciate it, Autumn.

Thank you so much. You really do. We appreciate everyone, Gibbs, for listening to the show. sending in email, sending in voicemails. It's all good. It really is. Gibbs, we've got mailbag this week. Awesome.

Two things. So our crochet expert, Kel Madden, made us some F bombs. Cool. Yeah. They're little crocheted balls that look like a bomb. They have a wick and everything. And then they have an F on them.

So you can just drop them every now and then? Yeah. Or we'll throw them at each other when one of us throws an F bomb, drop an F bomb. Like what's happening. Yeah. And then Laura made us some notebooks to jot down new show ideas. Very creative. She took our show logo or sticker.

She did a matting on the front. It's, it's, they look amazing. Professional. Yep. So thank you very much to both of you. Yeah. But that's it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.