True Crime All The Time - Wendi Mae Davidson

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

Wendi Mae Davidson claimed that she found her husband, Michael Severance, dead in their home. The couple had only been married for months, marrying just before Wendi delivered a son. Michael ...and Wendi were set to leave for Maine to visit Michael's parents. This would have been the first time his parents met Wendi. But they never made it. Instead, Michael's parents received a phone call from Wendi saying he was missing.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Wendi Mae Davidson. The facts of this case are cloudy because most of them come from Wendi. She initially said Michael was missing and claimed he might have gone awol because he didn't want to go on his scheduled deployment. But eventually, her story changed. She said she found him dead and then disposed of his body. But, to this day, she claims she did not kill Michael.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:33 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 387 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. You and I are just coming back from CrimeCon. We are.
Starting point is 00:00:51 And we needed an extra day. Yeah, we're dragging a little bit. Yeah. It took a toll. You know, the standing, the walking. Yeah. Opryland Hotel is about 20 miles from one into the other. I swear it is. It seemed like it some days.
Starting point is 00:01:09 15 miles just from our hotel room to where we had to go to set up. And you forget stuff and send me back to get it. Yeah. What? But it was so much fun. And I told this story on Patreon, but we had our meetup on Saturday night. And my daughter had a few drinks. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:01:29 And she was so fun. She was so much fun. She's an introvert. But next thing I know, she's hugging fans and just talking up a storm. Making all kind of friends. Yeah. So she was a lot of fun. Yeah, we had a good time.
Starting point is 00:01:46 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Kelly Thane. Hey, Kelly. Zoe. Oh, I love that name. Zoe. James Rushworth. He's just in a hurry, man.
Starting point is 00:01:56 He's rushing. Wherever he goes. Yeah. Charity. What's up, Charity? Eris Hop. Ah, Eidris. Martin.
Starting point is 00:02:04 Hey, Martin. Ginger. What's it going on, redhead ginger? Danielle jumped out at her highest level. What if she's not red hair? She's like, what? Why do you call me red hair ginger? Yeah, why do you assume that every person named Ginger has red hair?
Starting point is 00:02:18 I'm just thinking the word ginger. Oh, okay. I got you. That does make sense. Hey, Danielle, thank you so much for that. Darren Abbs. Hey, Darren. Hey, Darren.
Starting point is 00:02:25 Brandon Friart. Friart. Yep, that's what I'm going with. Katie Long. Hey, Katie. And last but not at least, Jamie. Ah, good old Jamie. And then if we go back into the vault,
Starting point is 00:02:36 this week, we selected Tish, not Tritch. I have a feeling you must have messed up on this name back in the day. No, I think that's how it was put in from the very beginning. But I'm thinking you would have messed it up, so, you know. Oh, okay. Because you mess up names all the time. Yeah, because seeing the R, not seeing the R, that's very, very tricky. but we appreciate you tish yeah absolutely we also had a great paypal donation from christina peterson hey thanks
Starting point is 00:03:08 christina yeah so we appreciate all the support we get absolutely Gibbs we have an episode out right now on ivan and anisha fowler and this is on true crime all the time unsolved fascinating case we're talking about fraternal twins who both go missing and that just alone is, I think, pretty rare you'd have to say. Sure. Yeah. It's not something I hear about a lot. But then, you know, when you find out that their disappearance wasn't really discovered
Starting point is 00:03:44 for like 10 years. Yeah. And then you have the mom who's not really giving a lot of, in the way of details. And I don't want to give anything away, but we'll get into all. You're going to get angry a little bit on this one, I think. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I think anytime you're moved to some type of emotion, that's normally a good thing.
Starting point is 00:04:07 Yeah. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? Yeah, I've been waiting for this one. Have you? Yeah. Okay. We're talking about Wendy May Davidson. She was a former veteran.
Starting point is 00:04:22 and her husband was murdered. Obviously, you know, she became the prime suspect. That's going to happen. But there are so many twists and turns and intricate details to the case that I really just don't want to give too much away. Her husband, Michael Leslie Severn's, was born on July 20th, 1980. He was only 24 years old when he died. He's a young man. Yeah, very young. especially when you look at it from the perspective of where you and I are at in our lives. Right. 24 is like a baby. My oldest daughter is 23. Exactly. And I think of her as still kind of a kid, even though obviously she's an adult. But at 24, you know, even think back to to you and I, you're just kind of getting your life going. Just moving along at that point, you know? Yeah, I don't know what that means.
Starting point is 00:05:22 you're kind of always moving along at every juncture of your life. But okay, we'll go with it. Maybe I underestimated just how much CrimeCon took out of you. We'll see as we go along. Michael grew up in Lee Main, a town near the Canadian border. He enjoyed running, skiing, racing ATVs and racing stock cars. That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:05:51 have you ever driven like a race car or been in a race with a vehicle all the time to get here on time so i don't have to we're not you know at me we're not talking about your interstate drafting and weaving in and out and slingshoting and and stuff like that i i've never done it i will say one time when i was in florida they had this thing called the richard petty experience yeah where you can drive an actual stock car. It takes like a whole day. We didn't do that. We did the one where you sit and a professional driver drives.
Starting point is 00:06:30 I had to change my underwear like four times. Oh, man. It was exhilarating and nightmarish at the same time. Yeah, I bet. You're on the side near the wall, right? Because they only go one way in NASCAR. I felt as though I could reach out and touch the wall. You were that close to it.
Starting point is 00:06:52 It was so amazing but scary at the same time. I do remember one time we did a business trip, you and I and a few other people from our department. And we all got these like typical, you know, sedans. And you pull up in this. It's like a Dodge Charger or Challenger. All deck, you know, like, yeah, and you're revving it up. and you know you'd squill out of there. Hey, that's on you.
Starting point is 00:07:20 If you want to, you know, drive a Ford Fiesta from the rental place, that's your choice. I'm getting something to have fun. After high school graduation, Michael's father encouraged him to leave town so that he could travel and have new experiences. In September 1998, Michael followed in his father's footsteps and joined the Air Force. He thought it would give him the opportunity to see the world. And I do think for, you know, a lot of people, the decision to join, you know, a branch of the armed services does come down at least in part to that.
Starting point is 00:08:00 You're going to get to see the world. Yeah, I had a few friends that joined the Navy just for that reason only. You know, I mean, I'm sure there's patriotic and all that. Reasons behind it as well. I picked the Navy because they figured that the Navy would offer. for them more places to visit. Yeah. Places that I've never been, you've never been,
Starting point is 00:08:22 that you probably wouldn't just go on your own. Not to mention the fact that they're paying for it. Right. But Michael completed training at the Shepard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, Texas. In May 1999, he transferred to an Air Force base near Abilene, Texas. So he grows up in Maine near the Canadian border.
Starting point is 00:08:45 and now he's been stationed at two different bases in Texas. Big difference. Yeah, about as big as you can get. Yeah. Michael earned the rank of Staff Sergeant and was a crew chief on a military transport aircraft. He was deployed to Afghanistan five times. Three of those deployments were in direct support of the global war on terror, according to the Bangor Daily News.
Starting point is 00:09:14 Pretty active guy. And that is a lot of deployments. It kind of made me think of, what was the guy's name from American sniper? Kyle. His last name was Kyle. You know, the movie I'm talking about? Oh, yeah, yeah. He was over there five, six times.
Starting point is 00:09:31 At least, right? Or maybe even more. Yeah. When he wasn't overseas, Michael loved living in Texas. He learned how to line dance once he realized it was a good way to meet women. It's funny you bring up line dance. dancing because you're like a line dancing fool. I used to be when I was in my early 20s and I can't attest. It is an amazing way to meet women or at least it was back in the early 90s. Yeah,
Starting point is 00:10:03 you were a line dancer. And then I met my wife and we used to go together. Yeah. So we would get there early. They would teach us the dance, one dance every time. And then, you know, you would just learn them all. and go out and have fun. Did you guys practice at home together? No. Do a little choreography. No. No, we only did it there.
Starting point is 00:10:22 But it was fun. In 2003, Michael met a woman named Wendy May Davidson. Wendy grew up on a ranch in San Angelo, Texas. She had always loved animals. So she decided to go to vet school. Did you ever think about being a veterinarian? No. No.
Starting point is 00:10:41 Although I do love animals, I did think about being a doctor. And that's what my mom wanted me to be so much. You know, she was a nurse. Sure. She knew a lot of doctors. I think she was disappointed when I figured out that it was way too much schooling. And I did not want to go through all that. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:11:00 It's because it's not that you didn't have the aptitude. Abtitude. I think I could have done it. But I also didn't want to work the hours that they work. I mean, yeah, they make a lot of money, but you're really sacrificing a lot. I think most of them. Yeah, I think you could have done it. I think you could have did that or you could have went to law school.
Starting point is 00:11:20 But high praise from Gibby since you did both of them, apparently. At the same time. At the same time. Wendy became pregnant with her first son Tristan during college. Despite the challenge of being a single mother, Wendy graduated from Texas A&M's veterinary college in 2002. And to me, that's really impressive. Sure.
Starting point is 00:11:42 Because you know, I have two girls in college right now. I know what they're going through. I know the stress level because they call home. They tell me about it. Now, you add in taking care of a newborn. And that is no small feat. No, that alone is its own stress. If you weren't doing anything else.
Starting point is 00:12:05 Yeah. That is stressful. Absolutely. But to add classes and studying and all of that on top of it is pretty amazing. She had a short but successful career before she was arrested. Michael and Wendy fell in love quickly and she found out she was pregnant just a few months into their relationship. The pregnancy was a surprise, but they were happy and Michael was excited to be a father. Michael and Wendy got married at a courthouse in September 2004, just weeks after their child,
Starting point is 00:12:39 Shane was born. And a disturbing coincidence. The justice of the peace who married Wendy and Michael also pronounced Michael death after his body was found and arraigned Wendy at the county jail. That's kind of is freaky, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The guy who married you pronounces your husband dead and arrange you at the at the county jail. That the whole full circle thing. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's coming full circle. In October 2004, Wendy opened her own vet clinic in San Angelo called Advanced Animal Care. She and Michael moved into an apartment in the back of the clinic. Wendy leased the space from a local businessman named Terrell Sheen, who was a family friend. Okay, you know, takes a lot of money to start your own practice. Sure does. So living in in the back, you're going to save a little.
Starting point is 00:13:39 Now, there might be a lot of animal noises that you're going to have to put up with. And smells. Maybe smells. Yeah. Definitely barking and things like that. Wendy and Michael also had access to Sheen's ranch property, 20 miles outside town. Okay. Family friend must have been a pretty good friend.
Starting point is 00:14:02 Michael had to commute 90 miles every day to report for duty at the Air Force base in Abilene. it was a three-hour round trip. That would be some rough commuting there. Yeah, that's a long commute. You and I both have had some commutes in our years of working. Yeah. I've never had a 90-minute each-way commute. That would be tough.
Starting point is 00:14:31 You know, what you could do, not in 2004, but now you could get through a lot of podcasts. Oh, you could. In a three-hour round trip every day commute. That would just be brutal for me. You know, I don't mind the longer commute on the way in. I just don't like it on the way back because now I'm on my time, right? I'm trying to get home or wherever I'm going to do my stuff. Isn't the drive-in your time, too?
Starting point is 00:15:03 Yeah, but if I'm a little late, like I used to be with you when you managed me and Like, hey, traffic was really rough, man. Yeah. You, you seem to run into a lot of traffic. There were a lot of wrecks, a lot of flat tires, a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, you know. In late 2004, Michael was preparing for his sixth deployment. Wow. He was on leave in early 2005.
Starting point is 00:15:29 He and Wendy planned to travel to Maine to visit his family. It was supposed to be the first time. Michael's family would meet. Wendy and the kids. They were going to have a wedding reception to celebrate the newlyway. So pretty important an event. Yeah, I think so. You know, I get it. You want to get married before the child is born. You're going the justice of the peace route. Well, you're probably not going to have people flying in from all over the country for that. But pretty important, I think if you're Michael, for your family to meet your new wife and your son.
Starting point is 00:16:10 Absolutely. Yeah. For the first time. They were supposed to arrive on January 16th, 2005. Instead, Wendy called Michael's family and told them he was missing. Okay. This is a woman that you have not met. You know she married your son.
Starting point is 00:16:30 You get this call. It had to have been extremely shocking. Yeah, shocking, but I don't know, would you be any, I don't know, would you be suspicious at all at that point of anything besides the fact of you're just so concerned? No, I don't know if I'm suspicious at that point, especially of her, right, if that's where you're heading. I think the first thing is just absolute concern over, you know, what's going on. Is he okay?
Starting point is 00:17:02 What do we need to do? Right. That's probably the thing. that are going through your mind. Michael's family urged Wendy to report him missing. So she called the police. Wendy claimed that she last saw Michael on the morning of January 15th. He laughed behind his car and phone.
Starting point is 00:17:21 Man, that comes up in so many cases, especially the unsolved cases we do. And I'm telling you, for me, it just is never a good sign. The police report stated that Michael was seen at great. Graham Central Station and Buffalo Wild Wings in San Angelo several times before he disappeared. Wendy claimed that Michael exhibited unusual behavior for several weeks. He was drinking heavily and disappeared for hours at a time. She said that the pressure of family and work got to him. He was struggling with the long commute and his upcoming deployment.
Starting point is 00:18:02 And I would completely understand that. I think day after day, if I had to drive three hours, that would get to me pretty quickly. Yeah, I think you get really tired of it. Now, he's already been deployed five times. This is number six. Does he want to go? Does he not want to go? Those are things that we don't really know.
Starting point is 00:18:24 Maybe he doesn't want to go this time because now he has his son. Could be. Could be. But as happens in a lot of cases, what are we getting? we're getting windy side of the story and that's all we had. She also reported that $221 was missing from the register at the vet clinic. She said Michael knew where she kept the money and had access to it. Okay.
Starting point is 00:18:51 So she's not painting a real flattering picture here of her husband. No. He's drinking heavily. He's maybe depressed and now maybe a thief. she's kind of throwing that in as well. It just seems strange. You're about to meet your husband's family, you know,
Starting point is 00:19:10 the grandparents of your son, but now you're saying some of this stuff, you know, the same day you were supposed to be meeting these folks. That doesn't seem to align. Doesn't mean it couldn't be correct, but it doesn't seem to align with, you know,
Starting point is 00:19:27 a person who is getting ready to go back home and has a new son. Yeah, I don't know. But then Wendy filed for divorce on January 17th, the day after she reported her husband missing. She cited irreconcilable differences as the reason for divorce and requested a temporary restraining order against Michael. Even more strange, right? It's like, what's going on? I don't know where he is, but I'm filing for divorce.
Starting point is 00:20:01 I think he might have took my $221 out of the. out of the cash register or what? Yeah, right now, I'm at a point where things don't seem to add up. Not that they couldn't happen the way that she's kind of outlined them or the timeline that she did things in, but it just all seems strange. Wendy spoke with the security forces section at the Air Force Base and suggested Michael might have deserted and possibly fled to Canada to avoid deployment. Again, I mean, okay, that's their right to do that, but it seems like she's really quick to
Starting point is 00:20:47 throw him underneath a bus. Well, let's just look at the way that she's painting him, right? He's drinking heavily, possibly, you know, stealing money out of the register. And now he's fled to Canada and he's a deserter. Yeah. He's gone AWOL. He's a bad guy now. Is that because she wanted backup for, you know, this divorce filing?
Starting point is 00:21:13 Here's, you know, I got to come up with some reasons. Right. For why I'm doing this. Or, you know, did some of this happen? You know, that's what we'll have to figure out. According to ABC, she said he was all concerned about he didn't want to be deployed because he was afraid that something bad was going to happen. And he kept saying, like, those guys.
Starting point is 00:21:35 that go over to Canada. It would be so easy just to go to Canada. Well, first of all, there is always a chance that something bad can happen if you're deployed overseas. Absolutely. That's just the fact that people in the armed services live with. Does it seem strange that he would go five times and then on the sixth time be like, nope, I'm going to Canada? It doesn't really add up for me. I think it's a, it's a hard sell. Yeah, I think it is too. Again, every time we talk about these things, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. All of this stuff could happen. But when you look at it on whether it's more or less likely, I think, you know, that's kind of how I view things. I don't view this as a very likely scenario.
Starting point is 00:22:27 I just feel like it's strange occurrence of events, you know, things she's saying. Yes. And I think even more so with the timing, right? He disappears one day. She files for divorce the next day. They're going to see his parents. She calls them that day and says, hey, obviously, we're not coming because he's missing. All of it just seems very, uh, and by the way, I'm going to divorce him and I'm going to report him to the armed services that he's deserted. The San Angelo Police Department, the Texas Rangers, and the Air Force. Office of Special Investigations investigated Michael's disappearance. Because Michael was on leave, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations could not start their inquiry until after he
Starting point is 00:23:19 was expected back on base. Special Agent Greg McCormick from the AFOSI contacted Michael's superiors at the Air Force base. They said he wasn't the type to desert. Again, for me, that kind of goes back to the guy's gone five times. Right. Now, things change. He does have a son who, you know, was just born. But is that enough? And maybe he is going through some other issues or whatever, but.
Starting point is 00:23:49 But why would you desert go to Canada, knowing that you may or may not ever see your son again because of that action? Well, that's a great point. It kind of takes the having a newborn out of the picture because if you go that route, you're not seeing Shane anyway. Exactly. Agent McCormick then called Michael's father.
Starting point is 00:24:13 Leslie Severance and told him, I think something's up. According to oxygen, meanwhile, the San Angelo police learned about tension between Michael and his mother-in-law, Judy Davidson. Judy was the office manager
Starting point is 00:24:28 at the vet clinic. When Judy spoke to the police, she said, I'm not going to lie. I didn't like him. Never did. Never will. Well, that's point blank honesty. Yeah, that's not holding back. Yeah. Telling it like it is. I would be crushed if my mother-in-law said something like that about me. Oh, you'd be devastated. I would. I'm very close to my mother-in-law. I love her. We get along great. And I get it. Not everybody does. But I have a great relationship with. with my mother-in-law,
Starting point is 00:25:06 but she could have softened that up a little bit. Yeah. She just didn't pull any punches. I'm not going to lie. Didn't like him. Never did. Never will. That's all I got to say about that.
Starting point is 00:25:20 However, there was no evidence connecting Judy to Michael's disappearance. All leads basically dried up until January 24th. This was when Michael's leave ended. And he was due back at the Air Force. base when he didn't show up, he was declared AWOL and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations took the lead on the case. So this is what? Eight days later, right? AFOSI agents interviewed Michael's family and friends. And as we talked about, right,
Starting point is 00:25:53 Wendy claimed that Michael had talked about deserting before, but Michael's family said it would be very uncharacteristic of him to do so. So his family's saying that, and I think that's what you would expect to hear from family. Yes. But also, you know, all these people at the base are saying that as well. So you've got some corroboration. Yeah. Some good character witnesses too.
Starting point is 00:26:22 AFOSI agents conducted a search of Wendy's vet clinic. They also met with law enforcement to coordinate search efforts. efforts, agents learned about businessmen Terrell Sheen, who owned the building that housed Wendy's clinic. They also learned that Wendy kept a horse on Sheen's ranch, but they didn't know the exact location. Agents researched Sheen's property to determine if Michael had access to them and could possibly be found in one of those locations. So they're checking a bunch of things out. One of the possibilities is that he is AWOL and he's just hiding out somewhere, whether it's Canada, maybe it's on a ranch that this guy owns.
Starting point is 00:27:09 They have no idea. They have to check into everything. Sure they do. On January 28th, Air Force personnel conducted a ground search within a two mile radius of the vet clinic. In February, the AFOSI received approval to put a tracking device on, Wendy's vehicle. I know this is something you know a lot about because I have found multiple times tracking devices in the wheel well of my truck. You did the ones that you were supposed to find. Oh, so there are others that I don't know about. Well, I can tell you you wouldn't have a lot of
Starting point is 00:27:50 information on there because I don't drive very much. But that little, looks like a smash insect on your on your grill. It's not an insect. It's actually a tracking device. I gave one up right there. You can take that off. There's another one, so I'm okay. But the one thing that's interesting about the Air Force special investigations unit
Starting point is 00:28:15 is that they don't have all of the same types of constraints as local police concerning certain investigative techniques. I like that. as long as it's not me there looking at going after in the request they explained that it was possible windy was helping michael hot i get that that's got to be on the table as well you know maybe she's saying all these things about him to throw them off sure yeah he's not in canada he's hiding closer to home but she's trying to throw the investigation off the tracker was placed on her car after midnight on February 26, 2005.
Starting point is 00:28:59 Wendy's car was parked at the vet clinic at that time. On the 27th, Wendy drove outside town to the ranch property owned by Terrell Sheen. AFOSI agents contacted Terrell Sheen on March 1st. He confirmed that both Michael and Wendy had access to the ranch and that Wendy kept a horse there. Sheen consented to a search of the property. on March 3rd, he gave agents a tour of the entire property. He allowed the agents to access all the buildings on the property and showed them different ponds, including a stock pond with a boat dock.
Starting point is 00:29:39 So, I mean, to me, this guy is cooperating about as much as one could. I think you would want to cooperate, right? It's not going to look good for you if you choose not to. Well, especially if you have nothing to hide. I think it's always a good thing to cooperate. Now, if you buried a body somewhere on that ranch, maybe you don't want to cooperate. Special agent Greg McCormick testified that they looked through mobile homes,
Starting point is 00:30:10 barns, and outbuildings because they were looking for potential hiding spots. So here's the other thing I want to talk about. You know, it does seem as though these agents are really kind of, of working on more of a, a wall scenario. You know, he didn't show up, but maybe,
Starting point is 00:30:32 you know, he didn't go to Canada. He's hiding out somewhere closer to home versus something, you know, in the form of like foul play. Yeah. Has happened to him.
Starting point is 00:30:45 Well, I think this is what they have to, right? They have to kind of check it off the list. Well, rule everything out until you get to the, the one that, that makes sense or,
Starting point is 00:30:54 you know, matches up. Earlier, Investigator sees the hard drive from Wendy's work computer. It was sent to a lab for analysis. And I know that's one of the things that scares you probably more than anything in the world, that your hard drive would be confiscated and analyzed at some fancy lab. A little bit, a lot maybe. That's why I have that bleach software ready to go at any moment. moment. Why does it feel like you have a whole self-destruct scenario at your house? Do you ever see
Starting point is 00:31:31 the movie where the guy had a whole record collection, but the one record, once he put it on the thing, would start the whole house on fire? Yeah, that was kind of cool. I forget what movie that was. I think it might have been Jason Statham. Probably because he's badass. Yeah, I feel like that could be you. Yeah. Like you have a real doomsday. scenario if the shit hits the fan you know a button is pushed something is triggered everything you own is wiped out no trace no trace that you were even here except for this podcast you wouldn't even have all the podcasts get erased at the same time in your employment records it's right the police received news that windy made suspicious searches about polygraphs and another search
Starting point is 00:32:23 for decomposition of a body in water. That's got to spike some interest. Well, I think that has to change the tenor of the investigation, doesn't it? I mean, I get it. We just talked about,
Starting point is 00:32:37 you know, you have to keep everything on the table, rule things out as you go. But these are very specific searches. Yeah. Polygraph. Okay. You know, how damning is that one?
Starting point is 00:32:51 but decomposition of a body in water, if you're not a true crime podcaster or somebody who's researching true crime, why in the world are you searching for that on Google? Yeah, I mean, you take that with a polygraph and the fact that your husband's missing. It doesn't look good. Doesn't look good at all. A Texas Ranger and a police sergeant interviewed Wendy at her vet clinic on March 5, 2005. Wonderful was Walker.
Starting point is 00:33:19 Walker, Texas Ranger? Yeah. I doubt it. He's pretty busy. He's still selling those home gems on QVC. That's right. He looks pretty good for, I think he's like in his 80s now. Oh my gosh. If I look like that when I'm his age, if I look like that now, I'd be happy when confronted about, you know, some of this new evidence. Wendy said she researched decomposition of a body and water because volunteer searchers we're looking for Michael at the time. Okay.
Starting point is 00:33:50 You're going to have to come up with an answer as to why you made that search. I got to be honest with you, it's actually not a bad answer. Wendy was also questioned about Terrell Sheen's ranch and the pond on the ranch. When Wendy was asked about the pond, she became more abrupt in her answers and kind of got defensive according to Davidson versus State. That's kind of a sign. Yeah, I think. Most investigators would take that agitation as, well, maybe they're striking a nerve there.
Starting point is 00:34:26 Maybe they're getting to her a little bit. And maybe they're honing in on the truth somewhat. She noted that her parents had a pond on their property and said the Sheen Ranch had three ponds. After the interview, San Angelo officers met with AFOSI agents. A Texas Ranger noted. noticed Wendy's vehicle was no longer parked at the clinic. The ranger asked the AFOSI agents and an officer to set up surveillance at the ranch. When officers arrived, Wendy was trying to get into the gate.
Starting point is 00:35:02 She said she was at the ranch to cut wood with her father, but laughed when an officer told her the police were securing the ranch for a search. Well, I bet at that point she got a little nervous. Well, my first thought was, okay, you need wood. for what, I don't know, but it seems like a strange time to go cut wood with your father. And specifically at this range that you're being interviewed about, you're being asked questions about. Later on March 5th, Wendy's brother, Marshall Davidson, a game warden, contacted officer Dennis McGuire from the San Angelo police and told him Michael's body could possibly be found. one of the ponds on the ranch.
Starting point is 00:35:50 Kind of a strange call though, right? Well, this guy's a game warden, but he also happens to be Wendy's brother. So, I mean, I think as law enforcement, you're going to take that call a little more seriously than you would if it was some person not connected to Wendy at all and just says, you know what, I think his body could be in the pond. Well, as it turns out, Wendy called her brother and told him, she, she found Michael dead in their home and dumped his body in a pond. Now, she insisted she didn't kill him,
Starting point is 00:36:25 but she feared a family member killed him. Okay, but why take his body and dumping in a pond? Are you afraid of this family member? Or is it because you don't want to look like you're the one that did it? You assume that the police are going to point the finger at you because you lived with him, you found the body. Wendy said she moved Michael's body to the pond, stabbed his body,
Starting point is 00:36:53 and weighed him down with cinder blocks. She would later say she stabbed the body because she was afraid it would float to the surface. I think it sounds a little brutal that she stabbed her husband. I know why she said she did it, but I just feel like it's brutal. I don't get it. Well, as gruesome as it is,
Starting point is 00:37:13 those of us who follow true crime know that you know, it's the gases escaping, right, from the body that cause bodies to, to float. So the stabbing of the body, you know, does keep that from happening. She said in an interview with ABC years later, I had to take these weights and I'm trying to tie them onto his body. And of course, it's the middle of the night, you know, can't hardly see. I knew air made bodies float. So I decided to me. make holes in the body, vent holes, like, so that air could escape. It just seems so cold.
Starting point is 00:37:52 Yeah. The way that she's saying it, and obviously I'm saying it, but just the words, it does come off as very cold. According to Wendy, her brother said, Wendy, I'm a cop. You can't be telling me this. You talk about putting somebody in a very, very bad position. Yeah. You know, this is your brother.
Starting point is 00:38:18 I'm assuming that he loved her. But at the same time, he is a member of law enforcement. Yeah, and he took an oath. And you're confessing to something. We don't know exactly. At the very least, you're confessing to disposing of a body. Wendy later said her parents came up and she and her brother explained what happened. Marshall told Wendy he would call an attorney, but instead he called the police.
Starting point is 00:38:46 So she tells her brother and then she brings her parents in the room and tells them. That must have been a very awkward conversation to have. Yeah, even probably with her mom that didn't like her husband, but I don't think she disliked them like that. To want him dead? Yeah. Officers met with Marshall Davidson. Wendy and her parents were also present. McGuire would testify that everyone was pretty upset.
Starting point is 00:39:16 Okay. I would hope they would be. Shocked, upset. Both Officer McGuire and a Texas ranger testified that during the meeting, they heard Wendy say to her parents, per Davidson versus state, I didn't kill him, but somebody did. I thought one of you did it. So I moved the body to protect you. So, you know, earlier we talked about Wendy kind of throwing her husband under the bus, right? He's drinking. He went AWOL. All of this type of stuff. You talk about throwing somebody under the bus.
Starting point is 00:39:54 She's saying, Mom, dad, brother. I assumed one of you killed my husband and I was trying to protect you. Yeah, I was just covering up your mess. Wendy was arrested on March 5th, 2005, and charged with evidence tampering. Michael's body was found in a stock pump on the ranch,
Starting point is 00:40:17 on the sixth. He was found in about 10 to 20 feet of water and his body had been weighed down with over 140 pounds of objects including a boat anchor, car parts and cinder blocks. That's a lot of objects. That's somebody really busy collecting this stuff
Starting point is 00:40:37 and then tying them to the body. Well, it's also someone who wants to take no chances whatsoever that this body is ever going to surface. 140 pounds. That's, uh, wow. I mean, the mob doesn't even go to that link. No.
Starting point is 00:40:57 They just use a couple of cinder blocks, or at least from what you've told me. Yeah, we're not supposed to talk about those things I tell you. The military identified the body soon after it was recovered, but the state medical examiner's office did not confirm his identity until March 18. In mid-April, the police searched Wendy's home in a clinic again, based on evidence from Michael's autopsy and toxicology tests, high levels of pentobarbital and phenobarbital were found in his system. Fenobarbital is a sedative used to control seizures, relieve anxiety, or help with insomnia. But it's also commonly found in vet clinics for euthanasia.
Starting point is 00:41:45 Pinto barbitol is a milder sedative. According to the San Angelo Standard Times, four bottles of phenobarbital tablets were removed from the clinic. Torn records were also found in a trash can. Well, this is not looking good for her. No, not at all. And, you know, does it kind of lessen the argument that she thought it was one of her family members? Now, her mom did work at the clinic, so I'm assuming she could have access some of this stuff, maybe if she really wanted to.
Starting point is 00:42:24 After the search, court documents revealed the discrepancy in Wendy's files. Her records indicated she injected a dog with phenobarbital, but the dog's owner said, this never happened. So it's like everything they find is, in my eye, kind of narrowing it down to it being more and more likely that she was involved and only she was involved. Now, if you're a defense attorney, again, could you make the argument that maybe her mom was able to change the file? Yeah, I'm sure you could make that argument. Yeah, you'd want to, right? in late April
Starting point is 00:43:10 Wendy's attorney Tom Davidson who was not related told the press that Wendy passed a lie detector test administered by him with the help of an expert okay I don't put a lot of stock in that no I was thinking the same thing
Starting point is 00:43:28 you know it's almost like well I know Gibby didn't do it because I asked him if he did it and he said no yeah good to go right there so just look somewhere else Davidson said, Perthy San Angelo Standard Times, she didn't kill anybody and doesn't know who did.
Starting point is 00:43:46 Apparently she passed when asked questions such as did you kill your husband and do you know who did? Davidson believed the results were comparable to a similar test conducted by the police at the beginning of the investigation. And again, you know, people differ on what they think about polygraph tests. I don't put a ton into them. But it does sound like it wasn't the attorney giving the test. They had a person with him who actually gave the test. I just honestly believe there are some
Starting point is 00:44:24 people who can pass a lie detector test. Maybe some of the same people who are able to murder a person with whom they were once in love with. Yeah. It's like you got no emotion or something. I mean, if you can believe your lies, like, as if they're real. And maybe that's a part of it as well. On May 24th, 2005, Wendy Davidson was indicted for murder and two counts of evidence tampering. One count involved the disposal of Michael's body and the other count involved the destruction of vet records. Core documents stated, Wendy knowingly caused Michael's death by introducing toxic levels of a substance or substances into his body.
Starting point is 00:45:12 And the one thing I think when we do these types of cases is that I'm very glad that I'm not married to someone who has this very specific knowledge of medicine and drugs and chemicals and things like that. Yeah, you're lucky. I mean, she could try to do something with what, with grammar lessons, mathematical lessons. Teaching second grade does not help you. I do not believe. Yeah. With getting away with murder, thankfully.
Starting point is 00:45:48 Michael's final autopsy report was released on July 1st, 2005, revealing that he was stabbed 41 times after death. His body contained lethal doses of pentobarbital, the drug used to euthanize animals. All right. Hold up 41 times. That's a lot of, I got to make some vent holes. What she called vent holes. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:46:13 I don't think you need 41. Successive. All right. So I think if you're law enforcement, if you're prosecutors, how are you viewing that number? My thought is that she was taken out some of her rage that she had against this man. Justice of the peace Eddie Howard told the San Angelo Standard Times. He would rule the death of homicide. He said about the stab wounds, these were post-mortem cuts to allow the release of gases that typically accumulate in decomposing bodies.
Starting point is 00:46:53 Rage is hitting one spot. It's more localized. these were spread out. So, you know, he's got a different take on it. I'm sorry, but 41 times, I don't care if it's all centrally located or it's spread out. To me, it's excessive. Well, but let's go back to the 140 pounds. That seemed excessive. Sure did. Again, this seems to me to be a woman who was taking no chances whatsoever. So maybe, I'm changing my thought on it a little bit. I still think it's excessive.
Starting point is 00:47:31 There's no doubt about that. While awaiting trial, Wendy was arrested on August 20th, 2006, in charge with child endangerment. Her four-year-old son was found alone in the parking lot of a Buffalo Wild Boy. So mother of the year?
Starting point is 00:47:50 Alleged killer at this point and bad mother. Yeah. Workers found the child. riding a mini four-wheeler around the parking lot crying for his mother. That's amazing, man. I mean, that's dangerous. Well, first of all, why does he have a mini four-wheeler in the parking lot of the Buffalo Wild Wings?
Starting point is 00:48:12 Here, son, ride this around while mom goes in here and drinks some beer and have some wings. Get some spicy garlic on? Yeah. Wendy initially told the police she left her son sleeping at home while she stopped at Walmart for 15 minutes. However, other officers saw her leaving a nearby dance club called Graham Central Station. She later admitted she went to the club. She had to go get her dance on, I guess. Meanwhile, her four-year-old son is riding a mini four-wheeler around a BW3 parking lot with cars probably zooming in and that. Yeah. You imagine just coming out of B-dubs or pulling in to go there
Starting point is 00:48:56 and you're watching this? I mean, you're probably like, who is this kid? Yeah, what's going on here? Two out of three doors to the vet clinic were locked. But the side entrance was left unlocked. The police believed her son exited the clinic and rode his four-wheeler across five lanes of traffic
Starting point is 00:49:15 to the restaurant parking lot. Five lanes. That's even more amazing. The complaint stated any reasonable person would believe the child was at great risk of imminent danger of death, bodily injury, or physical impairment. Okay. I think that's a pretty safe statement to make. Now, you can argue whether it's right to run down to the local Walmart for 15 minutes while your son is asleep.
Starting point is 00:49:46 You can make that argument. Yeah. And I think there are people are going to be on both sides of that fence. I don't know how many people are going to be on the side of, yeah, it's okay to leave your four-year-old at home and go out clubbing? Clubbing. I personally wouldn't do either one. No, and you like a good dance. You like to dance.
Starting point is 00:50:07 You like to get your drop it like it's hot, whatever you call it down then. Sure. You're not going to leave your kid behind. No, no, I never would have done that. Wendy's older son was released into the custody of her parents who were sharing custody of the younger child. In late 2006, Wendy's defense filed motions arguing that the Air Force illegally placed a tracking device on her vehicle. They wanted to suppress this evidence and argued the agents didn't have a court order. Prosecutors argued that the AFOSI had permission and approval to use
Starting point is 00:50:46 tracking devices because Michael was considered AWOL. And this goes back to what I said. earlier where they don't have some of the same restrictions that the civilian authorities have. Now, I think where you get into a gray area is that, you know, if you're putting it on her vehicle, well, she is a civilian. Well, she is the spouse. Yeah. I mean, I think that's going to be something that a court, you know, would have to rule on. And they did.
Starting point is 00:51:19 The judge dismissed the defense's motion. And jury selection for Wendy's trial was scheduled to begin on October 16, 2006. On that day, Wendy's defense made a last effort to suppress the tracker evidence. The judge denied the motion. During a recess, Wendy collapsed and sobbed for several minutes while her attorney tried to console her. Now, obviously, we haven't talked about this tracker evidence of exactly what it was. but if the defense is trying to suppress it this hard, it obviously is not good for their client.
Starting point is 00:52:00 Yeah, pretty damaging, I'm sure. And this comes up in a lot of trials, right? What evidence is allowed in and what evidence is not can make a huge difference in the outcome of a trial. If Wendy went to trial, she faced up to 99 years in prison. Instead, she agreed to plead no contest to first-degree murder and evidence tampering. She was then sentenced to 25 years for murder and 10 years for each evidence tampering charge to be served concurrently with the murder sentence. She would be eligible for parole in 13 years.
Starting point is 00:52:43 Pretty light. Yeah, that was my first thought as well. Now, you can see why she, you know, took the plea deal. Sure. 99 versus possibly getting out in 13, 99 versus 25. And the 25 may be coming down to 13. That's a big difference. And knowing that the evidence was not looking good for her.
Starting point is 00:53:09 And I think that's always huge, right? When you're staring down the decision of, whether to go to trial or take a plea deal. The evidence against you, I would think, has to be one of the biggest deciding factor. Yeah. And my thought is this tracking evidence being allowed in, probably had a lot to do with it.
Starting point is 00:53:35 Melvin Gray, one of Wendy's attorney, said taking the no contest plea would allow Wendy to move forward with an appeal, adding there are real issues. as to who committed the murder. And that's kind of an interesting statement. There are real issues as to who committed the murder, yet she pleaded guilty.
Starting point is 00:53:57 Right. Because it makes it sound like they would have or could have been able to mount this really, really good defense. But this would allow the appeal to move forward much more quickly. Wendy's appeal was denied in 2008. I'm not really surprised by that. Oh, I'm not either. Now, we don't have all the details of what the appeal was based on.
Starting point is 00:54:25 She applied for parole, but her application was denied in 2019. So she didn't get out in 13 years. Thank goodness, because I think that's way too soon. Yes. If you plead no contest. to first-degree murder. I do not think you should be out in 13 years. Wendy filed suit to modify her parent-child relationship and have increased contact with her youngest son, Shane, who was less than a year old. When his father died, she complained about
Starting point is 00:55:01 a trial court's order regarding contact with her son. She filed a petition for increased contact with shame, such as phone calls, letters, and visits. She said, she said, said that her son was old enough to speak in court and be questioned. And her parents were no longer sending her reports or pictures. She said per Davidson versus Davidson, when I left, my children and I had a wonderful relationship. Just a few years ago, my children still wanted to have a relationship with me. But now suddenly, they don't want to have a relationship with me. So something has happened. She believed her parents. resentment influenced Shane negatively.
Starting point is 00:55:46 Well, maybe all the conversation finally came up and they started talking about what happened to Shane's father. Yeah, that absolutely could be. A psychiatrist who had been seeing Shane for years testified that despite starting off with a challenging life, Shane was an incredible, extraordinary young fellow. He credited this to Judy and Robert Davidson's, extraordinary parenting and noted that circumstances that contributed to Shane's progress did not include contact with his mother.
Starting point is 00:56:22 When Wendy asked if it would be positive for Shane to visit her in prison, the psychologist said that in some circumstances, prison visits can be beneficial. But in this case, I thought it would be bad for the child. Well, she is guilty of killing his father. Yeah, I think that's going to be a tough. reunion in prison. It sounds like, you know, this kid's doing great. Now, he needs counseling, but sure, you expect that.
Starting point is 00:56:49 He went through something, you know, extremely traumatic. Even though he was very, very young, it seems as though, at least according to the psychologist that the grandparents stepped up. They were doing an amazing job. This kid was turning out to be, you know, a very good kid. I could understand how you just don't really want to interject. something into his life that could be harmful. The psychologist believed that requiring Shane to have contact with his mother would force
Starting point is 00:57:22 him to make an adjustment that was not necessary for continued progress. And it would be abusive to ask him to confront his mother and tell her what he thought about her. Judy Davidson testified that she loved Wendy, but thought she was a bad influence and not a good person. She acknowledged that they hadn't gone to visit Wendy in a very long time and that they refused to answer her calls. And this is something that I think about quite a bit. If you're the parents of someone who does something so horrible. And remember, Judy made no bones about it. She didn't like Michael at all. No, she didn't, did not. But she is appalled at what her daughter did to the point where she doesn't want to see her.
Starting point is 00:58:15 She doesn't even want to talk to her on the phone. I just have that question of, and I'm sure it varies situation by situation, how parents kind of handle that. Now, it's one thing to believe that your loved one is not guilty. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. I think they know she did it. Well, and I think at one point she tried to blame.
Starting point is 00:58:41 her parents or her brother. Yeah. And I'm sure that kind of turned them a little bit. It couldn't have gone over well. Let's just put it that way. I just think it's interesting, right? You still love this person. You're never going to not have love for your child.
Starting point is 00:59:01 But at a certain point, do you not like them? And that's kind of what it sounds like happened here. One of those tough decisions. Very tough. I also get the sense that they're trying to do what's best for Shane also. Judy explained that when Wendy wrote to her sons, she put the letters on a table and the boys could look at them if they wanted to. The court denied Wendy's petition to modify the trial court's order regarding contact
Starting point is 00:59:34 with her son. The Texas court of appeals affirmed the court's denial in January, 2000. 21. So both courts felt as though either she didn't deserve to see him or it wasn't in his best interest. Right. But either way, it wasn't going to happen. No. They're trying to protect the children. Yeah. And I think that's the right thing to do. Later that year, Wendy did her first network interview from prison with ABC's 2020. She said, I did not kill him. Referring to her husband, I want my side of the story. What happened? I want people to know what did and didn't happen. She told 2020, I did what I did. I think it was horrible. I think that I made a bad choice. There were better choices to be made. But I didn't kill him. What I did was horrible. There's no
Starting point is 01:00:32 excuse. I mean, I might have had crazy reasons in my head, but there's no excuse. Okay. I didn't understand 85% of that. First of all, saying I did what I did to me is just irrelevant. Obviously, you did what you did. Yeah. So to verbalize it to me is just makes no sense. But what I'm hearing are just a bunch of kind of cliched phrases. I made a bad choice.
Starting point is 01:01:07 There were better choices to be made. Yeah. All of that is very obvious. Actually, none of it needs to be said. Right. And we are all now dumber for having heard it. Wendy told 2020 that in early 2005, she was busy trying to run her clinic and take care of the kids.
Starting point is 01:01:27 She noticed that Michael had a hard time dealing with the long commute to work. He drank every afternoon and took caffeine pills. She said, at the time, I didn't realize there was an issue. But looking back, you know, like hindsight's 2020 and everything. So looking back, obviously there was a problem. That's not normal. And she's still blaming Michael for everything, you know? He was tired.
Starting point is 01:01:55 He was taking pills. He was drinking. I mean, she's just going on and on about that. Well, if you were going to say, I didn't kill him, then you're going to have to have all of these other things. that muddy the waters as to who did. Because you already admitted that you found the body. Right.
Starting point is 01:02:18 You tied 140 pounds worth of junk to the body, stabbed it 41 times, and then threw it in a pond. That part you've admitted. What you won't say, even though you pled guilty to first degree, murder is that you killed it. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:02:34 2020 reported that despite windy statement, there was no evidence to suggest, just Michael had a problem with drugs or alcohol. I was kind of wondering when this guy was going to find the time to drink, three hours of his day was spent driving. And then working. Yeah, he didn't really have a lot of time, I was thinking, you know, he probably got up pretty early, got home pretty late.
Starting point is 01:02:59 Wendy said that she does not think of herself as a victim and explained, I think my husband was a victim. I think my children were victims. I think Mike's family are victims. I wonder if she thinks of herself as a suspect or the guilty one. Or a killer. You know, since he did have some of those medications in his system. You know, some of these interviews, though, are pretty comical.
Starting point is 01:03:25 I mean, obviously the subject matter is not funny. But the way that some of these people talk in circles, because they're trying to make something out of thin air. I think a lot of times. And this saying that I don't think of myself as a victim, nobody thinks of you as a victim. What are you talking about? Yeah, really kind of shallow, huh?
Starting point is 01:03:50 She noted that she has not seen her children since they were two and five years old. According to the Department of Criminal Justice's website, Wendy just had her most recent parole review in May of this year. And on May 30th, she was denied. So I think she has another one coming up in about another three years. But her projected release date is 2013. Well, maybe they're holder the whole time. Yeah, maybe.
Starting point is 01:04:21 I mean, even if she got parole, it would only be about, what, four years earlier. Yeah. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Wendy Davidson continues to claim that she did not kill her husband. only that she disposed of his body. Well, maybe that's why she's not getting paroled. And that could play a big part in it. We've seen time and time again, right? Parole boards like when people take responsibility.
Starting point is 01:04:50 She obviously is not doing that. In 2005, she indicated she thought one of her family members killed Mike, but over the years, there's not been any evidence made public to support this theory. maybe she's trying to protect someone as she was overheard saying during a meeting with investigators or maybe she's lying so that she can make a better case for future appeals. And I kind of, you know, lean towards the ladder. Well, when she does get out, she'll be still fairly young. I think she'll be younger than we are.
Starting point is 01:05:27 Yeah. Having served a sentence for murdering her husband. Now she probably won't have any relationship with her kids or any good relationship. Yeah, or with her family. I mean, obviously her life is probably not going to be great. You know, she will be a convicted felon. So she'll have that hurdle. Right.
Starting point is 01:05:51 Very little support, probably. Well, when you're still making the comments that somebody in your family might have had something to do with it, I don't think they're going to want to open their arms to you really quick. But let's break that part down for a minute. Somebody in my family must have done it. But she never said who? No. Do you think she really would go to prison for what?
Starting point is 01:06:15 27 years, give her take, if she spends the whole time in there, to protect one of her family members who do not want to have anything to do with her? No, I don't think she would. Maybe she did that initially. but if you believe that. But when they started keeping her kids from her, I think the truth was that somebody in her family did this, I think she would have brought it up there. I absolutely agree with you.
Starting point is 01:06:44 I mean, she sued her parents. So if she had any evidence or, you know, anything that connected them to the murder, I think she would have given it up. But that's it for our episode on Wendy May. Davidson, I think one of the things I struggle with here is what was the motive? Because that was never really explained. At least where I could see by the prosecution. I just feel for the kids, obviously. Sure. And then I feel for Mike's family, right? Yeah. I mean, uh, to be taken at such a young
Starting point is 01:07:23 age. Yeah. Let's not forget. He was only 24 years old. Yeah. But we got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Hey, Mike and Gibby. It's James calling from Ottawa, Canada. Just listen to the Father Gerald Robinson show, and I had an opinion on it. You were saying that there was some DNA left at the murder scene,
Starting point is 01:07:46 and they could not put it on him. I would say back then, some of these priests that were involved in horrible crimes and things, maybe got DNA from another victim in some sort, as we all know, a lot of the priests around Boston area and things, pretty horrible stuff. So I think that could be just a transfer DNA pretty easily, and that's why it can't be traced.
Starting point is 01:08:09 And I just had to let you know that, get your thoughts. One other thing up to Canada, we had the Black Donnellys family that was murdered by a town just outside London many years ago, but it's a very interesting story. I'm sure you'd like to take a look at it and tell all your American friends about it. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate the voicemail. We'll definitely look into that case.
Starting point is 01:08:34 I do think the transference of DNA does make some sense there. Sure. Yeah. As to how that could happen. That leads into a whole other conversation that gets nasty on its own. Oh, yeah. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Leslie here, St. John New Brunswick.
Starting point is 01:08:53 I was just wondering if you guys had heard that Robert Pixon, had died in prison. Another inmate speared him with a broom in the head. And he was put on life support for a couple days and then died May 31st. So I went back and listened to your episode on Robert Pixon and enjoy your podcast. Hope you guys are having a great day and keep doing what you're doing. Thanks for leaving the voicemail. I did see that.
Starting point is 01:09:25 And, you know, I don't advocate for, you know, anyone killing anyone else in prison, but... I didn't lose any sleep that night. I don't... Well, I didn't either. But I especially don't think the families of any of his victims lost any sleep. Does seem like a really bad way to go, though. Kind of almost fitting. I hate to say that.
Starting point is 01:09:52 But fitting for a man is nasty as... as he was. I'm actually surprised he'd lasted as long as he did in there. Well, you know, it's funny that you say that because I was thinking the same thing. You have these very notorious killers, murderers.
Starting point is 01:10:08 And it's surprising that more of them are not killed just so that whoever does it can gain the infamy. Right. You would think, now a lot of them are, I'm sure, are separated. Sure.
Starting point is 01:10:22 They're from the general population. but you would think there would be more murders of some of these famous infamous people. I profile. Yeah. But no mailbag. So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

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