True Crime All The Time - William Leslie Arnold

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

In 1958, 16-year-old William Leslie Arnold shot his parents over a dispute involving the family car. Less than a decade into his life sentence, he escaped prison and was on the run for over forty years. In 2022, a genealogy database finally revealed his whereabouts. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss William Leslie Arnold. The crimes he committed as a 16-year-old were horrific. They were made even more disturbing because they were carried out against the people who loved him the most. But many have said that his mother was extremely domineering. Was that the motive for the murders? Arnold's escape and life on the run are fascinating, and the fact that he could elude the authorities for so long is almost unbelievable.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 426 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm good. How about you? I'm doing great. Awesome. We just ate a bucket of chicken. Well, how don't we ate the bucket? Not the whole bucket. But I mean, my wife had something too. Yeah. A little mashed potatoes, gravy, coleslaw, mac and cheese. It was good. It was weird, though. You didn't get it from a chicken place. No. Uh-uh. All the best chicken comes from a non-chicken place. Is that what? Yeah. You didn't know that? Did not. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Melody King Wyatt. Hey, Melody. Drew Wright. Hey, if you're not right, you're wrong.

Eric Fonsacker. Hey, Eric. Debbie Cox. What's up, Debbie? That's funny because you actually cracked yourself up on that one. You do. W.G. What up, G.

Raoul Duke. Hey, Duke. Annie. Annie. Lil Caitlin. What's going on, Caitlin? Kelly Clark jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Kevin.

Kelly. Kimberly Hudspeth. What's going on, Hudspith? Tammy. Tammy. Good old Tammy. Connie. There's Connie. And last but not least, Monique. I love some Monique. Okay. If we go back into the ball. This week, we selected Jennifer. Thanks, Jennifer. So we appreciate all the support, the new support, the continued support. And the future support. And the future support. Also, you know, we don't talk about it a lot, but, you know, CrimeCon is coming up this fall in Denver. if you haven't bought your ticket but you're planning on going, go out to crimecon.com, use our promo code TCATT, T-C-C-A-T-T, get a little something off your standard batch. Yeah, it'll be a mile high.

Yeah, it's fun. If you haven't been to CrimeCon, it's a lot of fun. It is a lot of fun. Gives, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about the mysterious Circleville, Ohio letters. And this goes back to the 70s. you were probably a teenager, possibly suspect, at the very least a person of interest. I wrote a lot of letters back then.

Because Circleville is only a little bit over an hour from where we are. But the residents of that town, they started receiving a lot of mysterious and threatening letters. So we'll get into all of it. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about William. Leslie Arnold. William was only 16 years old when he shot both of his parents over a dispute involving the family car. Damn family car dispute. Well, you got the family truckster and,

you know, as a 16 year old, what's bigger than getting your license and, you know, getting a little bit of freedom driving that car? Yeah. I'm sure there have been many fights between 16 year old kids and their parents over the use of the car. I don't know how many of them have led to shootings. They should never lead to that. I know they shouldn't. I don't know how many have. We know this one did, but there's so much more to this case. And, you know, I don't even want to give it away because it's hard to believe how much stuff happened in this case. William Leslie Arnold was born in Omaha, Nebraska. On August 28, 1942,

his parents were William and Opel Arnold. Bill Arnold owned the Omaha Regional Office of Watkins products, a direct sales company that sold spices, cleaning supplies, and other household goods door to door.

All back in the day where there was a lot of door-to-door sales, a lot more. Watkins and a vacuum cleaner place. So you're familiar with Watkins? Oh, yeah, I've seen it on people's doors. Oh. Like, or they put a little plaque thing up, you know.

Yeah. I had never heard of it. Vacuum. I know that was a big deal, like the Kirby's. The Kirby. They used to come to your house. They wanted to do a demonstration. I think years ago, my wife actually got sucked into buying one of those.

Did you really? Yeah. And it worked great for a while and then it started smelling real bad for some reason. We could never could. No matter how many times you change the, uh, the little, bags. It just, uh, just didn't, uh, smell good. No. We ended up getting rid of it, which was terrible because my grandmother had a Kirby for, I swear, 50 years. Really? And that thing worked like a chance. Well, I remember they were, they used to be really good vacuums. And they maybe still are.

But they were really expensive. They are really expensive. And that was part of the problem of having to get rid of that one. Opel was a stay-at-home mom. Leslie also had a younger brother named Jim, who was just 13 when his parents were killed. On the outside, the Arnold seemed like a perfectly normal family. The Omaha World Herald described Leslie as a smart but troubled boy who others failed to understand. Okay, so there's a couple of things here. First of all, how many times do we talk about on the outside looking in a family seems like, you know, the all-American perfect normal family?

Yeah, we talk about it a lot. But underneath, there sometimes are things that are bubbling that people don't see. And here you have Leslie being described as a smart but troubled boy who others failed to understand. I think that fits the bill for quite a few people. I feel like people don't understand me. No. And you're smart but troubled. Minta.

Those who grew up with Leslie said that he had a fiery temper. childhood friend Frank Spenceri told the Omaha World Herald. He was wound a little tighter than the average, but he was more intelligent than the average person and very talented. Okay. I can see why you are likening yourself to him. You too are also wound very tight. Yes, I am.

But you're very intelligent, more intelligent than the average person. And you're also very talented. I don't think, you know, that comes through a lot on the podcast, how talented you are. You know, with all your paintings and your, the sculptures, the clay modeling and stuff you do. In my novels? And the novels you've written. Yeah. And also posed for on the cover.

I mean, you are like just one notch below Fabio. It's don't have the hair like Fabio. Right. Yeah. But you're shirtless on a horse. I mean, I don't read. them, but I know a lot of people do. I don't know if we know a lot of people.

Leslie constantly got in trouble in elementary school, but eventually learned to control himself in the classroom. By high school, he was a B average student and was well liked by his teachers. His only righto was for failing to wear a belt one day. Okay, pretty strict. It is pretty strict. I mean, I get it if your pants are falling down and, you know, you're going commando.

That could be a big problem. but if your pants aren't falling down and you don't have a belt on, you get written up. Hey, young man, you need to go to the office. Yeah, I see you have no belt on the day. But we are talking about what? Here, the late 50s. Yeah. So, you know, maybe a little more strict. Leslie was in the ROTC. He also did track, wrestling and baseball. So he was in the singlets as well. Yeah, and track. His biggest passion, though, was music. He played saxophone in the marching band. band and ROTC band and performed at school dances. He loved Elvis and intimidated the singer,

slicked back hair stuff. Well, let's face it, in the 50s who didn't love Elvis. Absolutely. I love Elvis now and develop that love of Elvis as a kid because my mom was constantly playing his record. Why don't I feel like you're going to sing a little Elvis right now?

No, I'm not, but this was bloated Elvis. Yeah. You know, now I was listening to his older stuff, but you got to realize. I mean, he died when I was like four or five years old.

How much Grecian hair cream he had to put in? Is that what it's called Grecian? Grecian formula? Yeah. Yeah. I think back then they used, what did they call that stuff? The guy that, the stuff that they used in that brother were at Daperdan, Dapperdaen, something like that.

At home, Leslie displayed his temper. For example, he destroyed his model airplanes. if they didn't come together the way he wanted. He was waxing the family car one day and became so frustrated that the wax wasn't sticking that he slammed his fist into the roof and dented it. That's a temper problem. Yeah. I mean,

I think you're seeing just a few examples here of his temper. He also hit his younger brother, Jim, who told the World Herald, Les's temper had no stopper once it exploded. I always had the feeling he didn't understand. Why mom and dad had me when they already had him. Okay. For an older brother, okay, is there some jealousy there?

Yeah, sometimes there can be. But to think that, well, why do you need another one? You already got one. Yeah. Why do you need another kid? That seems strange. Can we get rid of that one? Just be me.

Leslie felt resentment and anger towards his mother. It was said that Opel Arnold called. the shots in the house. Leslie later told psychologists that she was domineering. She once forced him to cut the grass three times until it was up to her standards. She made fun of his interest in music and never attended his athletic events. Leslie believed she favored Jim. I remember one time my mom made me clean the toilets multiple times and one Saturday until I did it right. Not her fault. Not her fault. You couldn't hit the bowl.

I just wasn't doing that. And the fact was I was trying to rush to get the job done. Sure. Go out and have fun. Sure. So by the second, third time she came in, she just took the little bottle of comment or Ajax or whatever it was. And she just poured it all over the toilet on the floor and said, now when all that's cleaned

up, it should be clean? Then it'll be clean. I'm like, oh, okay. But here's this idea of a domineering. mother. That comes up quite a bit when you're talking about true crime. Yeah. It can often be, you know, something in someone's life that, you know, doesn't end well. That's true. For certain types of people. Yeah. Neighbor Woody Dillman recalled Jimmy was treated like an only child. Another friend of Leslie said, it seemed to me that Leslie's mother was

excessively and compulsively hard on him. And less would become extremely agitated beyond normal. So I'm really getting the sense here that you have these two brothers and is it that uncommon that the older brother or the older sibling gets a lot of the discipline while the younger one skates a little? Oh, yeah. And I think maybe you experienced some of that. Sure.

You have an older brother and a younger brother. Yeah, we get the worst of it, the middle kid. And now I only have two kids, but I wouldn't say we were harder on my oldest. We were just way more protective. Yeah. And then by the time the youngest got to those ages, she got away with more. She got to do more because, you know, first of all, we were tired. And second of all, we'd already been through it.

We didn't feel like we needed to be as protective. Right. A psychiatrist later wrote is quoted by the World Herald, the emasculating influence of mother dominance. Plus, being treated as a child rather than a growing young man could only serve to produce hidden resentments and antagonism towards his parents, which could be classified as a smoldering volcano. Smoldering volcano.

You know what you don't want in your son? A smoldering volcano? Absolutely. Especially a son who already has anger problems. when he could drive, Leslie fought with his parents over the family car. He claimed his mother sometimes gave him permission to use it and then changed her mind at the last minute. That's called control. It is.

Now, is she doing that to exert dominance, to punish him? I don't know. It could be both of those. Yeah, it could be. In 1958, the main source of conflict between Leslie and Opel centered around. his girlfriend Crystal. They'd been dating a few months. And it was said that Leslie was crazy about her, but Opel didn't support the relationship. She called Crystal's family trash. Leslie believed she felt this way because Crystal's father was a truck driver. I feel like we got some gemstones here.

Crystal, Opel. Oh, I thought you meant the show Jimstones. No. No. Though I do her, that's very, very good. If you haven't seen that, you're really missing out. Yeah. The third. third season just started or the fourth season. Heck, I don't know. Leslie and his mother got into a lot of heated arguments over Crystal. Leslie claimed his mother kicked him out of the house three times. She occasionally locked his father out of the house for unspecified reasons. Bill told his son, they needed to tolerate Opel's behavior to keep the family together. So, you know, we said it. People said she wore the pants in the family. It does sound like that. That she's She ruled the roost.

Sure. Leslie later told a psychologist that his mother had been hospitalized twice for what he called nervous breakdowns, which was a commonly used term. Back in those days for mental illness, Leslie and Jim didn't know many details about Opel's mental health because the topic was heavily stigmatized at the time. Not something a lot of people talked about. No, not at all. Jim Arnold explained to the World Herald that one of the instruments, instances where Leslie was locked out, was actually him running away to spend time with his girlfriend, rather than going on a weekend trip with the family. And Leslie's punishments were often brought

on by his misbehavior. Yes, I think sometimes we forget that we're the reason we were punished, right? It was actions that we did. I was not a great kid for a certain period of time growing up. And I would tell my mom one thing and do something differently. Shocker. And she would eventually find out. And I would try to cover it up. And but eventually it all would be laid out on the table. And you'd get punished.

I get punished. And, you know, it wasn't hurtful. But I don't. Yeah, I don't think that's uncommon though. I think, you know, kids are always testing the boundaries. And then they're shocked when, when punishment is doled out as though, you know, like, what did I do? Yeah.

You know what you did. Leslie planned to take Crystal to a drive-in movie. On the evening of September 27, 1957, 1958, his parents gave him permission to use the car. Leslie spoke to Crystal on the phone that morning. He often took the phone as far as the corridor would stretch so they could talk behind a closed door. During this particular conversation, Opel pulled open the door and scolded Leslie telling them that anything said behind closed doors was not worth saying. Leslie claimed she called

Crystal no good and he was worried she overheard. Well, I remember those long cords and trying to go into a closet or, you know, into the stairs at the basement and have a conversation because, you know, your brothers were listening or you didn't want your mom or dad hearing you talk, you know, all sweet with your girlfriend. Yeah. And then, you know, a lot of people don't realize. Not everybody had a phone in their room. There was one phone. Eventually, they did come out with cordless phones. Yeah.

That was a great invention. Sure was. More so because we had one that would pick up like all the other neighbors calls. Oh, sweet. And it was just fun to sit there and listen to their calls. I probably shouldn't have been doing that. You're like, oh, that's interesting. Salacious.

Yeah. But it would be embarrassing, too, if your mom didn't like your girlfriend and she was very vocal about it to the point that your girlfriend can hear. And she's also scolding you in front of your girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie got into an argument with his mother and told her she'd be sorry if she continued to treat Crystal that way.

Opel told him he was not going to the movies. Leslie punched a wall and Opel sent him to his room. Okay. The one thing you don't want to tell your mom is that you'll be sorry. Yeah, that doesn't normally work out well. No. after spending some time to it. Leslie came down and argued with Opel again.

She told him to go outside and cool all. Leslie went for a walk before returning to his room. He was home alone with his mother. His father was at the grocery store and Jim was out ushering a rodeo. What was the last time you ushered a rodeo? Well, I don't think I've ever ushered anything, but especially not a rodeo. Per his later confession, Leslie said, said, I got a crazy idea in my head. Around 2.30 p.m. Leslie went to his parents' bedroom closet

and retrieved the 22 caliber rifle. He used to hunt rabbits. He went to the dining room and confronted his mother. He claimed he had no intention to shoot her, but he wanted to show her how serious he was about going to the movie. That's one way to show it. Opel stood in the doorway to the kitchen and mocked Leslie saying, what are you going to do? Shoot me? Leslie pulled the trigger. Opel fell to the floor and screamed. Leslie said he didn't want to hurt her anymore, but inside.

He could still hear her laughter. He moved closer and shot her in the chest six times. Wow. With a 22. That internal laughter in his head must have just really drove him to all that. But I also think it's interesting, you know, him saying, I didn't grab the rifle to kill her. I just wanted to show her how serious I was about going to the movies. Yeah.

That seems like strange logic. It really does. Hey, I have this gun. Just so you know how serious I am about wanting to go to the movies. He later said in his confession, I can't explain it. She seemed in pain and I didn't want to hurt her anymore, but I just kept shooting. He tried to apologize to his mother in her final moments. That was when his father came home from the grocery store.

Bill shouted, What have you done? And ran at Leslie. He took a swing at his son but missed. Leslie then shot his father six times. So this has gone from bad to worse. You know, you've shot your mom,

your dad comes home, you end up shooting him. Not once, but six times as well. Six times. the other thing I thought was strange. When he talks about not wanting to hurt her anymore, his actions kind of scream the exact opposite of that.

To fire that many shots, you can almost feel the anger, the rage, as though he did want to hurt her. And he wanted to hurt his dad. Leslie dropped the gun and ran to the living room. He cried while he thought of what to do next. He considered telling someone, but he didn't think they'd understand. I don't know if anybody would ever understand what you just did.

No, it would be hard. I mean, what are you going to say? She mocked me. What are you going to do? Shoot me? And then after I shot her once, I could hear her, I could still hear her laughing at me. It's going to be hard for somebody to understand that. Sure.

But also, we're only getting his side of the story, too. A half hour later, he dragged the box. down the basement stairs and took the bloody dining room rug to the garage. He called family friend Rose Grossman and told her an elaborate lie. Leslie said his grandparents were traveling by train to California when his grandfather, who had dementia, got off at a stop in Wyoming and wandered off. His mom and dad got on a train to go look for him. So as far as lies go, that is a pretty elaborate lie.

Sure is. Rose agreed to take care of Jim until his parents returned. When Jim came home from the rodeo, Leslie ran outside to meet him and took him to Rose Grossman's home. Jim didn't suspect anything was wrong. Why would he? No. He believed what his brother told him. Afterwards, Leslie went about cleaning himself up to go on his date.

He picked up Crystal and her brother, and they watched a double feature at the drive-in. afterwards they went to a burger and malt shop and then to Crystal's house. Nothing like killing your parents earlier in the day and then going to the movies and having some burgers and shakes later. It's almost as if it didn't bother him at all. Or if it did bother him, it sure didn't to the point where he couldn't enjoy himself, you know, watching movies and eating. Leslie went home and tried to sleep in his car because he didn't want to be in the

the house with the bodies, but it was too cold. He went to his room, turned on the radio, and closed the door. I'm sure it would have been really creepy. Yeah, so he's jamming the music, falling asleep while his parents are dead in the home. Yeah, rotting downstairs. Leslie went to church the following day, and it was said that the sermon was about a crime. And Leslie felt as though it was directed at him. He left during the service. Well, maybe. Maybe it was. It may be. In the afternoon, he asked his neighbor, Frank Spenceri, for a shovel.

Leslie spent most of the day with Crystal and her family. Once he got home, he started digging a hole. It took several hours and was physically exhausting. Leslie then dragged his parents' bodies out of the basement to the hole. He said a brief prayer before burying the bodies. And I don't know how many people have dug holes, like in their backyard. I'm not saying to bury a body. I'm saying to do some type of construction work.

Depending on where you live, I know where we live. It's very rocky. The dirt is often very hard. Digging a hole is a lot of work. They make it look so easy like in movies and on TV. Oh, yeah. That they're, you know, digging a six foot deep hole that they're going to throw somebody in. Not easy.

Not easy. It's like that time you had me dig a hole. And I dug the hole. And then you came back after lunch and you said, Gibbs, why are you digging a hole on my yard? And I said, boss, you told me to. And you said, put my dirt back in that hole. And I'm like, what? Oh.

Nothing like a good, cool hand Luke reference. Well, I changed my mind. Yeah. Leslie then threw the bloody rug off a bridge into Bibb Papillion Creek. At midnight, he showed up at Rose Grossman's home and said he was scared to sleep alone and wanted to be with Jim. Rose noticed that both of Leslie's palms were blistered, but she didn't think much of it. And that's what happens when you try to dig a big ass hole. Sure. Yeah. Unless you're used to digging a lot of holes and, you know, you've formed calluses. You're going to get blisters. Or like you as a kid, you had a lot of calluses

on your hands for other reasons. Oh, it happens. The following morning, a Monday, Leslie drove to his dad's office and opened it up for the day. He asked one of his dad, his assistance to take over in his absence telling the same story that his parents left to help search for his missing grandfather. And I think the one thing that we have to talk about, Gibbs, is, you know, we're in the late 50s. It was really hard to get a hold of people. It really was. So much easier to tell this type of lie harder for people to verify, you know, or get a hold of these individuals to find out that you are lying. just kind of had to believe him, right?

And even if you weren't sure, how could you prove him wrong? Leslie attended school that week. After five days, he and Jim moved back home. On October 5, 1958, Leslie came home and found his grandmother and grandfather there. The same grandfather he claimed was missing. They had traveled to Omaha because they were concerned that no one knew where Bill and Opel were. And I don't care what. type of lies you tell, you know, even in the 1950s. Eventually, people are going to get suspicious.

Right. You know, they had telephones. They just didn't have cell phones. So at some point, you're going to start wondering where your family is. Yeah, I haven't heard from Opel in a while. Where's she at? What's going on? Leslie's grandmother called Rose Grossman to ask if Opel left any instructions for her. Rose asked about the missing grandfather, and she could tell from the grandmother's voice. She had no idea what she was talking about. Oh, we all know that voice, right? When you know whatever you think was the truth is not the truth. Yeah, and this lie is crumbling.

Rose did some digging and learned there was no train. Scheduled for the time Leslie said his parents left, she also heard from her friend on the street that Opel and Leslie had recently gotten into violence. arguments. On October 10th, Rose called the Omaha police and told them what she'd learned. The Arnold family had been considering doing this for days, but Leslie's grandmother said they shouldn't jump to conclusions. That night, Leslie took his girlfriend to a football game. While he was away, the family went to the police. His great uncle reported the parents missing and said Leslie was the last one to see them. So on the morning of October 11th,

Two detectives picked Leslie up from his dad's office and took him to the station. And pretty quickly, Gibbs, he broke down and gave a full confession. He took the police to his home and showed them where he buried the bodies under a lilac bush. I would imagine that's a lot of pressure for a kid. That'd be a lot of pressure for anybody. Yeah. But especially a 16-year-old kid who, let's face it, has, you know, told him. a couple of lies that are falling apart, you know, how's he going to keep this charade up?

Well, that's it, right? How can you? It's not, he's not going to be able to. Leslie was charged with two counts of first degree murder because the prosecutor suspected he loaded the rifle, which suggested the murders were premeditated. Yeah, if you have time to load the rifle, it means you're thinking about it, right? And I don't know how they could know that for sure, but yeah, if the gun was kept unloaded, and he went to go get the gun.

If he just wanted to show his mom how serious he was, which I still think is an idiotic statement for him to make, could he do that with an unloaded gun? Sure. Possibly, yeah. But no, he loaded it probably to max capacity because we know he fired 12 shots in all. Now, Leslie claimed the gun was already loaded.

However, workers at the Axar Ben race horse racing complex, near the Arnold household, found a box of 22-cali-bore bullets that Leslie threw over the fence. A psychiatric analysis concluded Leslie was saying one psychiatrist reported per the World Herald. It is the examiner's opinion that the mother's behavior toward the youth certainly was a force in helping to precipitate his action. And while I'm sure in part that is true, it does come off as though, like almost as if she deserved it. I think it's written in a way that's a little demeaning towards the mother. Yeah, I thought so. A little more harsh than it should be. Yeah, I think it could have been said a little bit better. Leslie expressed remorse in a letter to the

Grossman family writing, I've learned a great deal since I've been in here and I wish I knew then what I know now. My parents were wonderful people. This I learned too late and I'm sorry. How I ever went so wrong, I'll never know. I've got a lot of making up to do. Hmm. Okay. So that is either very introspective by a young kid or a budding con artist being manipulated. Sure. One of the two. I don't know which. Leslie was sentenced to life in prison. But, prosecutor John Hanley offered him words of encouragement saying, It's not going to be forever, Leslie. At this time, the state pardons board normally commuted life sentence for murderers to a set number of years and granted them parole.

Leslie would have to serve 10 years before he'd be eligible for a pardon or parole. John Hanley believed Leslie would eventually be released due to his age, his lack of criminal. record in his complex relationship with his mother. Hanley said in a later interview, when you build up all that resentment, sometimes it just blows up, that's what happened to poor old Leslie. Poor old Leslie. So what, he's saying that Leslie should be out when he's 26 or younger? Yeah, 26 years old maybe.

But to use the words, poor old Leslie, it makes it sound as though they, like, they're this guy felt bad for him. Sure did. Leslie was sent to the Nebraska State Penitentiary on June 9th, 1959. He was still only 16 years old. Imagine walking into a state pen at 16 with all those inmates. He was one of the youngest inmates in the prison. That would be rough.

But most of the staff and inmates were protective of him. It was said that Leslie adjusted to prison. prison life, finished high school, and even became a tutor. He worked several jobs and was editor of the prison newspaper. He also played saxophone in a prison band called The Felonaires. Oh, we got the Felonair's on stage tonight, guys. I did not know that prisons had their own newspaper. I did not know that either.

I wonder what that reads like. I don't know. Are you getting news from the outside, or is it strictly what's going on in prison? Yeah. Do you have something called like the cell corner? You know, they always had that corner part of the newsletter where they give like, you know, tidbits and stuff. I'm assuming it was Big Mo, you know, shanked, little Pete. I mean, that's like, you know, the headline.

I don't know. Deputy Warden John Greenholz was impressed when Leslie wrote to the warden asking for a job, saying he wanted to make the best of his time in prison. he was assigned as a runner in Greenholz's office. Okay, so again, this is either a kid who truly realized he did something wrong and he wants to make his time in prison the most productive that it can be, or he's conning everyone and setting up for something. Yeah.

Well, you did pretty good in prison that time when you did the help, you know, everybody out with their taxes and. Yeah. You set that library up with your friend. I did. That one time I got all my buddies's free beers and we drank on the roof. Remember after we tarred that roof? Yeah, I remember.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good times. In 1964, Leslie filed an unsuccessful appeal, arguing he wasn't told of his right against self-incrimination that he was pressured into pleading guilty and that he was incarcerated for eight months before the plea deal to let the publicity die down. In 1965, the foreman of the dental lab where Leslie worked wrote to the deputy warden complaining that Leslie was constantly griping and not pulling his weight. How bad do you have to be if you're getting in trouble in prison for not doing your job? I can't imagine people are working at their maximum capacity.

Now, they're being told to, but overall, though, Leslie was concerned. considered a model prisoner in December, 1966. Leslie received his only write-up for cooking himself eggs and sausage in the kitchen where he worked as a line cooked. You know, I've seen some eggs there, some sausage, and you're like, you know what? I am going to cook myself my own damn breakfast today. And he got in trouble. By early 1965, Leslie was made a trustee, a prison worker with more freedom and privileges.

he was transferred to a special dorm for lower risk inmates. The dorm was actually outside the main prison walls, but still within the fence. It was a secure building with barred windows, locked entrances and exits, and guard supervision. As reported by the World Herald, it would be classified as medium security in modern times.

The purpose of the special dorm trustee status was to prepare inmates for life out of life, outside of prison. It's a good premise. Yeah, I get it. And I think that's pretty normal, right, to have trustees who get a little more freedoms than maybe the rest of the general population. But as time passed, Leslie's desire for freedom only grew stronger.

He decided he wanted to escape prison rather than wait for a chance at parole. You got that itch. Which seems strange because it seems like the time. that he should be coming up for parole pretty shortly, although I don't know how long a day, a month, a year is in prison. I imagine it seems like an eternity. I would think. Compared to being on the outside.

In 1967, a fellow inmate who took a liking to Leslie, connected him to a man named Jim Harding. The inmate knew Harding also wanted to escape. and thought he and Leslie could work together. I just wonder how many prisoners with, you know, maybe quite a bit of time on their hands, are scheming nonstop. You know,

how do I get out of this? How do, you know, what can we do here? Oh, I'm sure. There's plenty of them trying to figure a way to get out of there if they're lifers. Yeah,

I mean, I think about Ted Bundy losing weight so that he could squeeze through, uh, like a hole where the light was. Yeah. I'd be digging a little, hole in the wall, try to make it bigger every day if I was in, was in there. Harding, who died in 2008, was in prison for killing a man during an armed robbery.

In 2001, he told the Omaha World Herald that he didn't like Leslie saying he was kind of a Boy Scout and I was kind of a crook. He wasn't your run-of-the-mill con. Well, I don't think he was. I mean, he was younger than most. he wasn't a career criminal, right? He wasn't a serial killer. Harding didn't know Leslie's exact reasons for wanting to escape, but it didn't matter to him. They weren't friends, but they were united by this one shared goal.

And sometimes that's all it takes. They plotted their escape during their free time in the day room and dining hall. The key to their success was an inmate who was going to be paroled in May, 1967. he agreed to help Leslie and Harding from outside. They chose July 14th, 1967, as the day of their escape. I don't know why anybody that is getting out on parole would ever want to risk their parole by helping other people escape. Yeah, I get it. You develop some close bonds maybe in prison, but hey, I'm free.

I'm not doing anything that is going to put me back in this awful place. Exactly. On the morning of July 5th, 1967, a secret message was planted in the personal section of the Omaha World Herald that said, NOF arrives July 14th. The parolee took out this ad

to serve as confirmation to Leslie and Jim Harding that they would go through with the escape. Okay. A little bit of Red Dragon vibes. You know, where Ralph finds, Fines plays the killer, and he's writing to Hannibal Lecter who's in prison and code. There's a whole classifieds thing going on. You're good at remembering that kind of stuff.

I like those movies. Yeah. Soon after the ad ran, the parolee drove by the prison fence in the middle of the night and tossed over a cardboard tube that contained hacksaw blades and two rubber masks. Seems Seems pretty easy It really does I just drove by

And threw over Some hacksaw blades And you know We were set We were set Harding collected the tube During an early morning walk And hit it

Now granted These guys are what Trustees They got more freedom Than most people The inmates Chose the music room Where Leslie spent

Most of his time As their escape point Over a couple days Leslie and Harding skipped dinner to hide in the music room and saw the bars over the windows. They held the bars in place with chewing gum to avoid detection. So that's some real shawshank shit right there. Oh, it is. Yeah.

That's some good chewing gum too to hold that in place. Must have been. Before the 11 p.m. head count on July 14th, Leslie and Harding stuffed pillows and blankets under their bedding and used the rubber masks to make heads for the dummies, which did trick the guards during count. This is like Alcatraz. It's like all these escape movies wrapped into one.

Then they escaped through the music room. The men had to run 30 feet to the fence line, which had lights and a guard tower just 100 yards away. Their escape hinged on the guards, failing to look in their direction. They threw a jacket over the barbed wire. Leslie went over first. He got tangled up and landed clumsily on the other side, but wasn't injured.

And then Harding followed. The men ran across the railroad tracks to the trees where their accomplice was waiting with a car. Harding recalled to the World Herald, I couldn't believe he did it for us. He must have been nuts. Had to be nuts. I mean, it goes back to what you said. I mean, this is a man who just got paroled, but is willing to go.

go out on this type of limb to help these guys escape. Around midnight, they were let out near a bowling out in Omaha. Leslie used a pay phone to call his old friend Jim Child telling him, Jim, this is Las Arnold. I escaped with another guy. I need your help. Okay. I've gotten a lot of strange phone calls in my life.

I'm sure you have as well. I don't think I've ever gotten one that strange. No. Out of the blue. because this guy had been in prison for a few years now. Oh, yeah. I'm assuming this was a shocking phone call to oversee. Just trying to figure out how that would go with you and me.

Hey, Mike, this is Gibby. It's been a while. I'm out because I escaped and need your help. Mike, are you there? Click. Are you there? I hope you never find yourself in that position. But if you do, do not believe that I will.

will be the man who steps up for you and risks going to jail myself. So this guy, Jim was shocked, right? He gets this call. He was also studying to be a minister and was home for the summer and had visited Leslie in prison just six days earlier. But he didn't hesitate to help his friend. He even packed Leslie some clothes and sandwiches for the trip. Oh, some sandwiches too.

He drove the fugitives to a bus depot. Omaha where there was a 3 a.m. bus bound for Chicago. He bought their tickets and gave them $40 in cash, which was all he had at the time. Pretty nice guy. I mean, I feel like I got some good friends, but I don't know if I have any friends that would do all this for me. And I'm so shocked that this guy is studying to be a minister. But yet he's like, yeah, sure, no problem. Yeah, I'll break the all for you. Let me pack some sandwiches, get all the money I have, and I'll get you out of town. Harding and Leslie got off the bus in downtown Chicago and went to a Catholic church where they were given money to spend the night at the YMCA. They went there separate ways the following day.

And, you know, to be honest with you, Chicago's a pretty good place. If you're wanted to try to hide, I would think. Blend in. Or any big city, but, you know, you. You know, back then, Chicago was a very big city, as it still is today. Hey, it's what the fugitive did. Meanwhile, back in Nebraska, the inmates were reported missing on the morning of July 15. Officers searched a 30-mile radius around the prison, but they were long gone by that point. You think they had somebody like Tommy Lee that took a map out and drew a big circle and like said, this is our search radius. I love Tommy Lee Jones as an actor going all the way.

way back to when he played like Dewey and coal miner's daughter. Oh yeah. He's really old now, though. Yes. He is. I was just thinking of that movie. You know why? Because we were really young. That's true. When he was, you know, an actor. Not even just starting out. Within days of his escape, Leslie was living under an alias. And he had a job at a local restaurant. He met Harding for a previously arranged check it. Leslie told Harding, he didn't need him anymore. And they never saw each other again. I mean, this story is so unbelievable that, you know, if you told somebody, you'd be like, ah, no, that didn't happen. This really happened. Jim Child admitted that he lied to an FBI agent, who came to his house and asked if he knew about the escape. Child told the World Herald,

I have some ambiguity about it, but nothing that approaches guilt. I don't know if he, uh, if he ever became a, a minister or not, but, uh, he came right out and said it. Yeah. I'm not guilty about what I did. Now, it doesn't surprise me that they would come to his home. I'm sure they would check the, the visitor log and see who had visited both of these guys. And they would go check on those individuals.

Yeah, it makes sense. Child kept a secret for years, even from his wife. But in 2005, he shared his story with a reporter. He explained that he was willing to help Leslie because he believed he was a good person, caught in a bad situation. And he didn't think he would hurt anyone again. And I'm assuming that the bad situation was his domineering mother, Opel.

Yeah, we heard that mention a few times, right? In May 1968, Jim Harding was arrested in Los Angeles during the nationwide manhunt for James Earl Ray, the man who assassinated Martin Luther King Jr. Harding happened to look like Ray and was caught after a woman saw him in a bar and called the police. Well, that's just bad luck. That really is. That you happen to look like one of the most wanted men in America. Harding spent eight more years in prison and was paroled in 1976. He was relieved that he could spend the rest of his life in true freedom instead of constantly

looking over his shoulder. That would be so tough every day to wonder if today's the day they're coming down the driveway. Yeah, I do think that would be very tough. I'm also shocked that, you know, he only spent eight more years in prison. That must have meant either he was pretty close to parole anyway. when he escaped, or they just didn't tack on much for prison escapes back then. Yeah.

Harding got a job on the setup crew for Omaha's Civic Auditorium. He got married and retired in 1997. He then died of cancer in 2008. In his 2001 interviewed with the World Herald, Harding shared his theory about what happened to Leslie Arnold saying, my best guess is he's in South America. He showed me a book once that showed if you impregnate a Brazilian citizen, they won't bring you back for anything. Huh. Yeah, I didn't know what to say about that either, to be honest with you.

But, you know, it shows you as they're, you know, kind of planning this escape. Leslie Arnold was thinking through a number of things. Now, it was said that Jim only visited his brother in prison once. Once. After the murders, Jim moved to the Kansas City area to live with an aunt and uncle. His former principal told him he shouldn't tell anyone what happened. And he kept the secret for years, telling people his parents died in a car accident. Well, I think that would be tough to say, my brother killed my parents. I think it would just be a weird conversation to have with people.

Well, especially as a kid in school. Once everybody knows that, are they going to want to hang out with you? you? Are you going to be invited to the parties? No. Probably not. I remember I worked with a kid right out of high school. We were loading the, uh, unloading the UPS trucks. And I learned. He just, one day he told me that he just recently got out of, uh, prison, uh, because as a kid, he shot some other kid that came up to his porch and killed him. And I just didn't really feel all that comfortable around him anymore if you made him upset. Because I thought, obviously, he's got an issue with temper.

And what's the screening process over there at UPS back in the day? I was like, huh? Anybody gets a pair of those brown shorts, I guess? I guess. Damn started a career as a music teacher in Missouri, got married, and had two children. After struggling with trauma and nightmares for many years, he started going to therapy in the 90s. and his counselor encouraged him to tell people what happened. Jim told his adult children the truth and let go of the guilt.

He felt for not being there. And I'm sure that this principle back in the day was trying to help. Sure. But is it really good to keep all that inside, to tell lies about it? Probably not. No, I don't think so. Over the years, there were numerous sightings and false leads regarding Leslie Arnold's whereabouts, the FBI worked the case into the 90s before it was given back to

the Nebraska Department of Correctional Services, who eventually transferred the case to the U.S. Marshals. And that's probably where Tommy Lee Jones got involved. Absolutely. Jeff Britton worked the case from 2004 to 2013 with the Nebraska DOC and continued researching after he moved to California. I think the one thing we have to talk about is how much time. has passed. You know, they escape, what, in the mid, late 60s? This guy is working it in 2013 still.

Around 2011, Britain went to a law enforcement conference and learned a method to see if anyone ever searched for their name online. He discovered that someone recently searched Nebraska investigator, Jeff Britton. He couldn't find the exact location, but the service provider was in South America. Around that time, someone also looked up Leslie Arnold on the DOC inmate database, but they looked ima by his inmate number

and not his name. And this was unusual because very few people know inmate numbers. Interesting. Yeah, I know you still remember all of yours, but most people who are not the inmate probably don't know the inmate's number. In 2017, the Omaha World Herald released a three-part series on Leslie Arnold, written by Henry

Cordes. The series generated new leads in the case. So we're up to 2017. And this man has been on the run for like 50 years. That's a heck of a run. An Omaha man named David Finney did some research on the genealogy website Family Search and found a Brazilian immigration document. document issued to William Leslie Arnold on December 7th, 1968.

Leslie used his real name, birth date, and place a birth. So maybe not the smartest individual. Or he was very sure of what he had read in this book. Yeah. That as long as he had a child with someone in Brazil, they could never deport him for any reason. Imagine getting to Brazil and be like, okay, ladies. Which one of you want to go first? I know that's the way you would do it.

I don't think most people have the swagger to pull that off, but it does seem strange, though, that he used his real name, birthday, place of birth. I'm sure he could have done it a different way back then. I would have thought. The immigration card didn't say how and where Leslie entered Brazil, but it was stored in Sal Palo, suggesting he came to that city. A type notation on the back of the cart suggests Interpol noted that the man was wanted by the FBI and requested more information on him. And this was a notation made in 1968.

Wow. It just apparently never went anywhere. Just stopped right there. A subsequent entry was made in 1971. Both entries were written in Portuguese. And the second entry uses bureaucratic. language and abbreviations, it ends with without capture. So depending on how it's translated, it could mean the authorities tried to capture

Arnold and failed that they tried to locate him but didn't want to make an immediate arrest or that they did not want to arrest him at all. I'm not really sure. Oh, that's a big difference. Between the three? Yeah. Sure, absolutely. The case was finally solved by Deputy U.S.

Marshall Matt Westover, who was assigned the case in August 2020. He reached out to former lead investigator Jeff Britton, and they discussed the case frequently over the years. Deputy Westover looked into the Brazilian immigration document. But as reported by the New York Times, Brazilian officials didn't have any record of Leslie Arnold, and it was unclear why his name was on that document. So that seemed like a kind of a mystery. It does. It's like he enters the country using his real name and real information, but then they have no record of him. Westover found a postcard from Canada and one from California with Leslie's name, but these leads didn't pan out either. In November 2020, Westover located Jim Arnold in Missouri. He agreed to give a DNA sample, which was entered into a public DNA registry.

in August 2022, the DNA registry notified the U.S. Marshals. The Jim Arnold's DNA was a close match to a man in Australia. Now we're in Australia. That month, Westover got in contact with the man who said he was trying to learn more about his father, John Damon, an orphan from Chicago, who died in 2010. Westover learned that Leslie was married with two kids. he became a businessman and lived a great life and apparently changed his ways. He was a great father to them.

That's what Westover was quoted as saying. Beyond traffic stops, John Damon had no criminal record. Westover said about telling the family the truth about John Damon, per the New York Times, that was a really hard conversation to have. Their family didn't know any of this stuff. And so it's hard not to feel bad for them. And that would be tough, right? This guy who you think is a or all you've ever known, great husband, great father,

first of all, is not really Johnny Damon, who played for the Red Sox and the Yankees. He is William Leslie Arnold. Authorities work to track Leslie Arnold's movements from 1967. to his death in 2010. And we mentioned it earlier, right? Once he got to Chicago, he got this job as a line cook at a restaurant, it was here that he met waitress,

Jean Bouvieet, a single mother of four. Gene brought John over to her apartment to meet the kids. Her daughter, Kelly, recalled how John didn't eat or talk much, but he seemed nice. So again, right, he's going by this name,

John Damon. The couple married. on November 25th, 1967. At the time, Jean was 34 and Leslie was only 25 years old. Yeah, young guy. The marriage was beneficial for both parties.

For Jeannie, it allowed her and her kids to move into a nicer apartment in the city. It gave Leslie a cover and a new life. Gene's oldest daughter, Deb, said, it was a tough go for a single mom, and I can see why she would want someone

who could support us. Maybe she had an inkling of what was going on, but we'll never know. The kids were told that John grew up in an orphanage. They knew very little about his past. Leslie was able to obtain an official-looking but fake birth certificate under the name John Damon listing his birth year as 1941. His mother was listed as Gene Stanley, which was Gene Bouvier's maiden name. This allowed him to obtain identity.

identification, such as a driver's license and a social security card. So he's got good identification now. Yeah, I think much easier back then, right? John Damon later started working as a traveling salesman. He sold linens, vending machines, chemicals, and instruments. He made good money, which allowed the family to move to Cincinnati in 1969. Gene's daughter, Deb, told the World Herald, in Chicago, we were poor. from the other side of the tracks. Here was this savior who pulled us out of this rough life.

So, I mean, it was in all the papers, Gibbs. The kids had fond memories of John. They said, he taught them about music. He took them to concerts. But he was also demanding, strict, and unforgiving. He gave them choreless. They were required to have jobs by the age of 13. And he didn't tolerate any back talk. He grounded them when they disobeyed, sometimes for a month or longer. Sounds like he had a little bit of his mom in him. Well, and don't most of us, right? We take stuff from our parents. A lot of us have maybe a little, maybe a lot of one or more parents' personality traits. That doesn't surprise me at all. In 1971, the family unexpectedly moved to Miami.

Jean's daughter Kelly recalled that their move to Miami was suspicious. John and Gene traveled to Miami to go on a trip to the Bahamas. Gene never returned to Cincinnati. She stayed behind to find housing for them, and John returned to help them move. Okay. I've been to Miami a number of times. Yeah. Some of those to go on cruises or, you know, sometimes to the Baham.

never once did I get off the boat and say, you know what, we're just going to move here. This is our new home. Honey, you stay here with the kids, find a house or whatever. I'll go back, sell our house, pack up and move. But could it happen? Yeah. Could you also see why the kids later on would say that seems suspicious? It would be.

A little bit. I think so. Deb decided to stay in Cincinnati and finish her. year of high school after John left, an FBI agent came to her door and asked about John Damon. She told him she didn't know where he was, just as her mother instructed her to do. So it sounds to me as though Leslie knew somehow, and there's no details around how, but he knew that they were onto him in Cincinnati and the move to Miami was pretty much a necessity. Yeah.

Leslie didn't socialize much. He got back into music and he even did a few gigs in Miami, but he kept a pretty low profile overall. And wouldn't you have to? I think as a person on the run, you have to keep somewhat of a low profile. I think it's probably important. It was said that he was furious when Gene once invited their neighbors over for a surprise party.

I don't like to be surprised at all. No. But I especially would not like to be surprised if I'm on the land. Yeah, you just never know who's going to show up, what conversations are going to be had, and, well, somebody recognize you. After a few years in Miami, John talked about moving the family to Costa Rica. Gene and the kids had no desire to move. John convinced Gene to buy land in Hawaii with the idea of moving there one day,

but she didn't want to. This led to the end of their relationship. According to Kelly, John started working longer hours and after a while stopped coming home on the weekends. By 1977, he was living in an apartment in Burbank. On July 27, 1977, John Damon filed for divorce. Gene did not contest. And the divorce was granted in February, 1978.

They agreed to split the family assets. But Gene felt like he didn't keep his own. end of the bargain. So she mailed his smashed saxophone to California. She later said, he was a great provider, but a lousy husband. Smash that saxophone. John maintained contact with the girls. He called and visited and attended Deb's nursing school graduation. So, I mean, you know, these aren't even his girls. Now, he'd been with them for a long time. He helped to raise them. So he obviously had a pretty strong emotional attachment to them. It sounds like it. It sounds like he cared about the girls. Yes. But again, this is not a serial killer,

you know, devoid of emotion. No. This is a kid who happened to kill his parents when he was 16 years old and escaped and started a new life. In 1992, he asked to meet the kids in person. earlier he had talked about leaving the country. So they suspected it might be the last time they saw him. They turned out to be right. John stopped contacting them and they never saw him again. And that's kind of, you know, how I thought maybe it would go once the breakup happened. Right.

He would just disappear. Right. So I was shocked to find out that he kept in touch with the girls. He even, you know, went and visited this. them and attended some of their stuff. But I'm guessing he realized that that was putting himself at risk to being caught. Yeah. Yeah, it probably was.

Leslie Arnold remained in the Los Angeles area for several years under the alias John Damon. He continued working in sales and even incorporated his own company called Dominico. I mean, this guy's having a life that most people would love to have. While on the run from the FBI and the U.S. Marshal Service, I mean, he's doing pretty well. Yeah, I think he's adjusting fine out there in the world. He met his second wife when she was a foreign exchange student in Los Angeles. They got married in 1983. They had two children together, a daughter born in 1986, and a son born in 1991.

Leslie's son agreed to talk to the world. World Herald, as long as he, his family, and their hometown were not identified. His son described him as a charismatic man who was interested in science and technology and raised his kids to love music. In 1992, John decided his family should leave the country because he felt that the U.S. was not a good place to raise a family. His wife opposed the move, but eventually went along with it. Before they left, he had a distinctive mole removed from his face. This mole was noted in police descriptions. John told his family, he was tired of cutting it while shaving. Yeah, I'm sure he wanted his mole removed so people would not

identify him as Leslie Arnold. Yeah, I'm sure. He was probably also tired of people staring at it and going molly, molly, molly, molly, molly, molly. The family moved to New Zealand and lived there for five years before settling in Australia. This guy's all over the place. With multiple families, John traveled back to the U.S. for work occasionally, but he was more focused on family life. He told his kids that being a father, changed him and gave him a new purpose. They considered him a loving, doting, and lighthearted father who wanted the best for him. He never talked much about his past, only telling his family he was an orphan from Chicago. He said he didn't want to discuss the details because he had a difficult life. He claimed he didn't want to know about his birth parents. He modified pieces of information

from his old life. For example, he told his family he once worked as a dental technician, but he didn't say it was a prison job. Right. Just kept that part out. Yeah. So, you know, the best lies are based on truths. Sure. If that makes sense. or have truths in them. His son said, a lot of what we knew and had been told were partial truths. He didn't open up

and I didn't ask questions. John stopped traveling overseas after the September 11th terrorist attacks. Soon after he began dealing with blood clots and was diagnosed with deep vein thrombosis. His health declined and he died on August 6,

2010. No one, even his own family, knew his real identity, or even suspected he was not who they thought he was. And I'm just shocked at what a life this guy was able to live after his escape from prison. Yeah, he was able to, uh, seems like, have a pretty decent life. Yeah, I had no problem getting jobs. Seems like he made good money. In traveling to different parts of the world and coming back to the U.S., so I'll

he was never flagged because of his different name. Yeah. Leslie's son was just 19 when his father died. He decided he wanted to learn more about his father and went to Chicago in 2018. That was how he learned his dad's birth certificate was fake. He spoke to his dad's stepdaughters, but they didn't know much about his life either. This influenced his decision to put his DNA into the database. Leslie's son told the Omaha World Herald that he didn't regret taking the DNA test because

ultimately I just wanted to know more about my father's life and legacy. And that's what I got. In March 223, U.S. Marshals traveled to Australia to interview Leslie's family and collect evidence. They visited Leslie's great. The following month, after doing everything they could, to verify that Leslie Arnold was really dead, the U.S. Marshalls officially closed the case, bringing closure to a mystery that spanned decades.

And this is kind of a strange case for us on TCAT. Really? I mean, obviously, you have a guy, you know, who even though he was only 16 years old, committed to horrific murders. Right. I mean, he killed his mom and dad. As some people have suggested, you know, did it have something to do with his mother being domineering.

I mean, we've seen it in other individuals that can have a negative effect. Doesn't excuse what he did. But you're trying to figure out the reason for it. Could that be part of it? And I would say, yeah, could. I think the fascinating part for me here is that as far as we know, he didn't go on to commit other crimes besides fake identities and stuff that he needed to keep him from getting caught. But I don't know that he was out murdering people. But again, I don't think the guy was a

serial killer. This is the type of person you could make the argument who if he had not escaped and would have waited to be paroled probably would have led a productive life and not reoffend it. Yeah. I think that's pretty safe to say. I think so. Now, could he do that today in 2025. I don't think so. Even if you could escape, I just feel like it would be so much harder to stay off the radar. But he sure was able to do it. And it's not like he was a hermit. No, he was traveling the world and creating families and living life. I mean, he wasn't living in Kaczynski's cabin in the middle of Montana. No. I mean, he lived in major cities, Chicago, Cincinnati, Miami, you know, Burbank.

Thought you were going to stay Australia. Yeah, yeah. Or New Zealand. Those are major cities for sure. Sure. But I don't know how to feel about this case because on the one hand, he did something horrible. He did. And he didn't fully pay, right?

He didn't spend his required amount of time in prison. Right. So for that, you'd have to say he got off light. Sure. But when he got out, it doesn't seem like you hurt anybody. Now, we don't know that for sure. We don't. It seems like he was a good father.

He might not have been a great husband, but all of his kids said he was a good father. But a strange case for sure. It is. No doubt about it. It was a good case, though. I found it fascinating. I did too, just the fact that he was able to, uh, never get caught again. I mean, he died in, in 2010. And it was still another decade after that

before they finally figured out who he was. Yeah. But that's it for our episode on William Leslie Arnold. We got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Well, I can give you. What is up? It is Joe from the Chicagoland area. Love the show. I told you guys a couple of years ago. I wanted to give you a really neat case suggestion from my hometown. It's Christy Wesselman. It was a high school girl. She actually went to my high school. She was found dead back in 1985.

And then 30 years later, DNA was matched to a random person on a random unrelated charge. So really a crazy story of science kind of prevailing and allowing justice to be served. I'm not sure if you guys still do the hometown episodes, but I'd love to love to help out. So yeah, let me know. Love the show. Keep your having a swivel and keep your own time taking. Thanks, guys.

And I was just saying the other day, what happened to Joe in Chicago? We haven't heard from him for two years. Yes. Now, we only did the one hometown case. And it was because we couldn't control the audio of the third person who was coming in. I thought it was an interesting concept. It's just, you know, the audio wasn't quite where we wanted it to be. be. But we'll definitely put that on the list. Also have ties to Chicago and this one. So absolutely.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Brittany. I'm going from Louis, Kentucky. I am a new fan. So I'm only on episode 70. But I have been vinging for a couple of months. I'm an Amazon delivery driver. So I listen to as many episodes as I can, my 10 hour shift. But I just want to say you guys are amazing and I love you guys. Hopefully I'll hear my voice mail one day soon, but keep up the good work and keep your own time taken. You think she copes out and goes, it's Britney bitches. I doubt it. But maybe. I don't know. I know you love saying that. I don't know, though. If you got a 10 hour shift, you can get through a lot of episodes. You sure can. So you might hear this sooner than you think. Yeah. Got some packages on there for me too, I think.

For my wife, for sure. Oh, that's a guarantee there. Oh, my gosh. That's like my only job during the day is to go out and collect Amazon packages, if any, come. And more often than not, they do. That's why you rent that warehouse to put those packages in there. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.