True Crime All The Time - William Palmer

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

William Palmer was a British doctor known as the Rugeley Poisoner. He was convicted of murdering his friend so he could steal money to pay off gambling debts. Although he was convicted of one murder, it is suspected that Palmer poisoned up to 15 people, including his wife and infant children. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the serial poisoner William Palmer. William had a lot of advantages growing up. His father made a lot of money in the timber business, much of it illegally, and he left a lot of it behind when he died. William was a physician, but he was lazy. He liked to spend his time gambling on horse races, and then he would poison those around him when he needed money.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 360 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good, man. How about you? I am doing very, very well. Having a good week.

I want to wish everybody a happy Thanksgiving. Yeah, if you celebrate it, happy Thanksgiving. Absolutely. Can't wait for my girls to come home from college. Yeah. I have some family time. It'll be really, really nice. I'm looking forward to the last.

leftover turkey here. Yeah. Yeah. I think you asking us to box it up and FedEx it overnight is a little much. But yeah, and pay for it. So we already bought the turkey. We made the turkey. Yeah. And then we have to ship it to you overnight in dry eyes. If rolls were reversed. You would do this. What are the? The rolls could be reversed. Make a turkey and send me some. Doesn't happen that way. Hey, Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Sarah Navarro. Hey, Navarro. Beth Burns.

What's going on, Beth? Hector Garcia. Hey, Garcia. Jamie Cornett jumped out at our highest level. Look at you, Jamie. Thank you. Jen. Oh, good old Jen.

Courtney H. Hey, there's Courtney. Margaret Beals. Thanks, Margaret. Mark Paul McManness jumped out of our highest level. McManus. Caitlin Peterson. Well, thank you, Caitlin.

Anita Ferguson. Oh, Ferguson. Which is a very cool last name. Sure it is. Rochelle. Hey, Rochelle. Destiny. Man's.

I love some destiny. Cheryl Bridman. Hey, Cheryl. And last but not least, Jamie Luster. Well, thanks, Jamie. Yeah, thanks for all the new support. And then if we go into the vault, this week, we selected Sam Marshall. What's up, Sam?

Yeah, appreciate all that. And we had a great PayPal donation from Travis Moe. From the Mowen dynasty. From the Mowen Fawcett dynasty? Yes. Yeah, thanks, Travis. We have a lot out right now. Yeah.

On Saturday, we released a Patreon episode on the McClellan. Cormick's father and son, Thomas and Michael. You know, Thomas was a guy who owned this big ranch, thought to have gone into Denver to hire help. Yeah. Either migrant workers or homeless men and then killed them instead of paying them once they started to complain about doing all the work and not getting their money. I guess that will be cheap labor.

Yeah. And then his son was no angel either. He was convicted of murder and some other crimes. A lot of happening in that family. Yeah, a lot going on. And then on true crime all the time on salt. We're talking about 17-year-old Kelly Day Wilson. She went missing in January of 1992.

There's a lot going on in this episode as well. A lot of layers and a lot of... A lot of people arrested and charged and even one of the officers who was investigating her disappearance was was charged it's so bizarre we have some satanic cult ritual type stuff going on so shocking from the 90s santan yeah shocking but make sure you you check that out all right buddy are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time i'm ready we're going back to the 1800s man and we're going to britain and i know that you've probably been practicing your british accent all week in preparation.

British. It doesn't see. My British accent is the same for back then or today because the British accident never changes. I've always talked like that. But William Palmer was a British doctor known as the Rusely Poisoner. In 1856, he was convicted of murdering his friend so that he could steal money to pay off gambling debts.

Although he was convicted of one murder, it's suspected that Palmer poisoned up to 15 people, including his wife and children. Rousley. Yeah. I could be saying that correctly. I could not be. No, you could be. Rosalie.

That helps. That helps very much. Thank you. William Palmer was born in Rusley in the county of Staffordshire on August 6th, 1824. His parents were Sarah and Joseph Palmer. William was the sixth of. eight children. A lot of kids, man. I think people had a lot of kids. Yeah. Number one, there wasn't all the ways to ensure that you didn't get pregnant that we have today. But number two,

and we've talked about this depending on, you know, where you lived or, you know, if you were on a farm, you needed the help. Yeah. Or you were going to need the help over the year. That's true. Joseph Palmer once worked as a Sawyer. You ever heard of a Sawyer? You ever heard of a Saler? You only sawyer I ever heard of Sawyer Brown. Apparently it's a person who saws timber. I mean, it makes perfect sense. It does. But, you know, I've always wondered like where the word lawyer comes from.

Yeah. It doesn't seem to really make a lot of sense. But maybe just the YER on the end of it is one who does or practices that whatever is before it. So I'm just trying to figure out what else goes with law and Saul? I don't know. I don't either. Some people will write in. There's a Paul year out there because they work on Paul's.

Paul year. But he was eventually able to accumulate a fortune, reportedly from stolen timber. Hey, there's definitely some money in timber, no doubt. Oh, absolutely. And I think back then, if you could steal a bunch of it, you could probably make even more. Yeah, the profit margins really open. up at that point. They kind of are like 100% right. Yeah. Joseph died in 1837. When William was around 12 years old, he left his family 75,000 pounds in 1837. Yeah. Does that seem like a boatload of money?

It is a boatload of money. Seven thousand pounds went to each of his sons and the remainder was given to his wife. So the stolen timber business was good. No doubt about it. At the age of 17, William started working as a chemist's apprentice in Liverpool, but he was dismissed after just three months because he was accused of stealing money. Ah, so he took after his old dad in the thieving area. Well, I mean, by and large, do most of us take after our parents in some form? I would say yes. Yeah, sure.

Now, if your dad's a thief, are you bound to become a thief? I would say no, but could it happen? Absolutely. He could have been like, hey, my dad really had it going on. Right. Made a lot of money, took care of us. It's good enough for him. It's good enough for me. I will try that as well. He went on to study medicine in London. In August 1846, he qualified as a physician and returned to Staffordshire. He started training as a surgeon's apprentice with a doctor named Mr. Talcote. So he couldn't make it as a chemist's apprentice.

He was accused of stealing money. Obviously, it was a little harder back then for that type of stuff to follow you around. Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. You're not making any telephone calls for references or, or anything like that. Hey, you're in. You get to be a doctor. No worries. But his experience as a doctor gave him knowledge of and access to books on different medicines and poisons, which, as we'll find out, he later.

used in life. William wasn't all that interested in working. According to the illustrated times, he had the reputation of being a wild young man with plenty of money to spend and with indulgent parents who never attempted to rule him. So foot loose and fancy free. Well, we know he had money. Yeah. His father left him a lot of money. His mom was left a lot of money and sounds like she was pretty indulgent. While Palmer worked as a physician in some capacity throughout his adult life, he didn't always practice medicine full time because he preferred the exciting pursuit of betting on the turf. Ooh, okay. So he liked to bet on the horses. He frequented the local racetracks where he bet on race horses. He quickly developed a gambling addiction. I wonder if you ever met

the peekie blinders. He might have because they ran the races. right at one point during that show now i don't know that this is all that uncommon gambling addiction is a serious thing it is i think it it happens to a lot of people right there's that rush yeah it's it's almost like a drug you get a rush from betting on the horses or betting on a football basketball game and you're chasing that hot of course yeah that that that big win that's why casinos are never worried when you go in and you win. Because they know you're giving it back at some point. They're going to,

you're going to chase for that next big win. Well, there's a, there's a reason for that old saying, the house always wins. Yeah. Yeah. How many casinos have you seen go bankrupt?

None of the ones around here. No. They just keep getting bigger or adding on. Now, where are they getting that money from? People like you and me going and putting those quarters in the slot machine or whatever it is. But I want to talk about this guy not having a great work ethic. And I think I've talked about it before, but, you know, it's that possible downside of being given too much

early on. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, being spoiled, having your parents pay for everything can for some people, not everyone, but for some people, kind of cause them to never develop that drive. Yeah, diminishes it. That you, that you need to be really, really successful. It's hard to say, go out there and make it on your own. If you don't, you don't. But then you're like, oh, by the way, here, take this and just in case you don't make it. Here's something to fall back on.

Yeah. Throughout the 1840s and 50s, people associated with William Palmer began dying under mysterious circumstances. Like I said up front, he suspected of up to 15 murders. One of the first deaths associated with William Palmer was the death of Plummer George Ablett. The two men met at the Lamb and Flag Pub in the village of Little Haywood, Staffordshire. Palmer challenged him to a drinking contest.

Abley accepted, but drank so much that he had to be carried home where he died that evening. According to local rumors, Palmer was interested in Abley's wife, which could explain a potential motive to kill him. Now, I know for a fact in college one time, I did have to be carried home. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. Yeah, I've been carried home a few times. Yeah. Luckily, I had some pretty good people with me. Nobody tried to poison me or, you know, anything like that. Yeah. But Palmer didn't end up marrying George Abley's wife. He returned to his hometown. of Ruzly to continue working as a doctor in 1845. He met a young woman named Ann Thornton who was in finishing school. And I know you went to finishing school Gibbs and it really kind of

turned your life around. I finished finishing school. I always had a problem finishing. And that's why they sent me to make sure I can finally finish something. And you were able to finish it. Yeah. And I can set a table like nobody else. Never seen it, but I'm sure you can. Yeah. You can't. You can't pay for the meal, but you might be able to set the table. I can set that darn table. Ann Thornton was the daughter of a retired Army officer and a housekeeper. Her parents were never legally married. Anne's father died of suicide, and she inherited his inn and Stafford, which earned her around

250 pounds a year. So I just want to go back to the thought of 75,000 pounds. That's a big chunk. When she owns an inn and is making two hundred and. 150 pounds a year. Yeah. And, you know, William's father left them 75,000 in total. Each of the kids got 7,000. That, that really is a lot of money. Well, when you have that type of money, that's why he didn't have to work every day if he didn't want to. Anne was not old enough to run the end when her father died. She was taken from her mother's custody and sent to live with a guardian. As a young adult,

she was sent to a finishing school in Haywood where William Palmer was working as a physician's assistant. They met before he had completed his training to become a doctor. Anne's guardian warned her against marrying him. So she refused his first proposal, but Palmer continued pursuing her. And they eventually got married on October 7, 1847 when Anne was 19 years old. And you wonder why the guardian would say, hey, wouldn't do it. Yeah. You know, did this person notice something in his character?

Because why else would you warn someone not to, to marry? Yeah, I think the instincts kicked in and said, hey, careful. Well, we know that this person is going to turn out to be absolutely correct. Within a year, Palmer started borrowing money from Anne's mother, Mary Thornton. In January 1849, Palmer invited Mary to stay at their house. during her visit, she became severely ill and died on January 18th. She was 50 years old. And I would say 50 years old is a pretty good lifespan in the mid-1800s.

Yeah, not too shabby. I'd say that was probably more than the median. Yeah, I don't know, but I think it was pretty healthy. Yeah. So was her death maybe viewed as suspiciously as someone much younger would have been? maybe not. But it was also said that when Anne's father died, Mary inherited several properties from his estate. According to the BBC, William Palmer was expecting to be paid around 12,000 pounds after she died, but Mary's trustees instead paid a quarterly allowance to Ann. Well, I'm sure he

wasn't happy that the bulk of the funds just didn't come in instead of just getting these quarterly payments. Well, and does it kind of make sense that he most likely killed Mary because he thought this big chunk of money was coming? Oh, yeah. Palmer was still heavily involved with gambling, and now he couldn't borrow money from his mother-in-law to fund his habits. He started borrowing money from a man named Leonard Bladen, whom he met at the racetrack. Bladen. Bladen loaned, owned Palmer a large sum of money. He was staying at the Palmer's house when he died unexpectedly. On May 10th, 1850, he was 49 years old. So again, I don't know if that was a pretty good lifespan back then or not, but it's not too hard to see the pattern here. Sure. The one thing that

you don't want if you're in the life of William Palmer is to have money that he expects to get if you die or have him in your debt because he's just going to get rid of you. Well, yeah, it does not have to pay it back if you're gone. The next suspected victims were William Palmer's children. He and Anne had five children, but only one of them lived past infancy. Wow. Now, I don't know how uncommon that was in the 1850s. I don't know what the mortality rate of, of new people.

Bournes was. It was good. I don't think it was good in general, but I think four out of five, that's still probably much higher than what was to be expected. William Brooks Palmer was born in 1848 or 1850, depending on which source you look at. He was the only child to live into adulthood. He passed away in 1926. The rest of the children died in rapid succession. Elizabeth Palmer, died on January 6th, 1851, when she was just two and a half months old. Henry Palmer died on January 6th, 1852. He was just a month old. And the same day, one year apart.

That's brutal. That year, Palmer's uncle Joseph Bentley passed away on October 27th, 1852. He was 62 years old. And his death was not considered suspicious. but it was later reexamined in light of the charges against Palmer. And I think you would have to do that, right? Once it comes out that you have a serial poisoner, don't you have to go back and kind of look at all the deaths that surround this guy?

Absolutely, you do. And reexamine whether or not they were natural or murder. Frank Palmer died on December 19th, 18th. just seven hours after he was born. Finally, John Palmer died on January 27th, 1854, three or four days after he was born. It was said that by 1854, Palmer was thousands of pounds in debt and had started forging his mother's signature to secured loans. That year, he took out a life insurance policy on Ann for 13,000 pounds.

He paid just one premium when Anne became sick and died on September 29th, 1854. She was only 27 years old. He'll do anything for money. Now, it was thought that Anne died from cholera because Great Britain was in the middle of a pandemic at that time. But you're right, Gibbs. I mean, if you just look at the people in this guy's life, which I'm sure in the 1850s was much harder to do to kind of.

see this thing from 10,000 feet and start to question why everyone around this guy is is dying. But if you were able to, it would definitely be extremely suspicious. Yeah, for sure. Palmer used all the money he got to pay off part of his debts. But even then, he still owed thousands of pounds. I mean, I think this just tells you how bad his gambling addiction really was. Pretty chronic. Around the time of Anne's death.

Palmer started an affair with his housemaid Eliza Thorn. On June 26th or 27th, 1855, Eliza gave birth to Palmer's illegitimate son, Alfred. By 1855, Palmer was still in extreme debt. According to the Illustrated London News, he owed about 20,000 pounds at 60% and had forged his mother's name on all the bills. 60%. 60% Loan shark what?

I mean, people are crying now at, you know, the rates to buy a house or to buy a car. 60% is ludicrous. Earlier that year, he took out a life insurance policy on his brother Walter for 14,000 pounds. Walter Palmer Dot on August 16th, 1855. He just didn't care, did he? No, I mean, I think that is going to be so apparent. that William Palmer was a guy who was all about himself, right, wanted to do what he wanted to do. And if he had to kill someone, even someone in his own family, brother, wife, children, to get some money,

he seemed to have no qualms about doing it. I'm thinking the insurance adjusters at this point should be like, we're really paying this guy a lot. Well, if he was smart, he would have taken him out with different companies. And again, all of that wasn't in the research. But what was was that the insurance company in Walter's death thought that was suspicious. So they refused to make the payment and even threatened a criminal action. But they didn't pursue the case further.

So he had to be, I guess, really let down. Is that the right term? I killed my brother for no reason. Yeah. And they won't even pay me the money. Yeah. Now, the fact that they didn't pursue the case any further, now, you know, does that lead to more innocent people being killed because they were just more than happy not to have to pay out the 14,000 pounds? Yeah. Probably. William had several bills do that fall and more coming up in early 1856. And he had been looking for a way to find money to pay off his debt. His brother's death just seemed too convenient. Sources also reported that a former lover was blackmailing him around this time. Yeah, I don't know if that's somebody you want to blackmail.

I don't think it is, but I'm assuming that maybe this person knew some of the things that he had done. But no doubt, right, at this point in time, he's desperate. He owes a lot of money. We talked about the fact that all this debt was in his mother's name. So at some point, he has to know that the creditors are going to come after her soon to collect this money and she would find out what he had done. He searched for a new source of funds and began targeting his friend John Parsons Cook. Like Palmer, John Cook was a frequent gambler. He was supposed to start a career as a lawyer, but he inherited over 10,000 pounds worth of property and decided that he no longer.

longer wanted to practice law. Instead, he bought racehorses and made a career out of gambling. There's a lot of people in this story that are just getting a boatload of money. They are. From inheritances. Must be nice. But some of them are making some really bad choices with that. A lot.

A lot of them. The Illustrated London News described Cook as a common sample of the young sporting fool with a few thousands to wait. And to your point, right? He could have become a lawyer, but he gets this money. And he's like, no, I don't want to do that. I just want to keep on gambling. Yeah, except the short term instead of long term.

A few doctors would later testify that Cook was not in the best of health, but these were not considered severe health problems. And he was not expected to die anytime soon. Palmer and Cook had known each other for a while. Back in 1853, Palmer had a bill due for 500 pounds. He only had access to 310 pounds of credit to pay it off. His creditor declined to give him the rest of the money unless he had a form of security. Palmer listed John Cook as his security and he accepted.

Palmer received the credit he needed to pay off the debt. But when it came time to pay back the credit, he couldn't pay. And John Cook paid off the bill for him in August 1853. Okay. That's a pretty good friend. is or someone with a lot of money who doesn't give a who but still nice gesture it is because 500 pound in 1853 you know i know you're not great with the pounds conversion as good as you are uh you know with american conversion but let's let's let's give it a shot be bo bo bo bo boop what would 500 pounds back then be worth today

75,000. Maybe. I was thinking maybe hundreds. I really don't know. But Palmer did this a second time for a 500-pound security deposit on a 1,000 pound credit. The creditor refused to advance the money without tangible security. Palmer somehow convinced the creditor that John Cook was the one who needed the money, and he proposed using Cook's two racehorses as security. The offer was accepted, but John Cook, didn't receive the money. Palmer forged his name and took the check to pay off his debt. Wow. What a friend. Well, we know this is a terrible individual, right? He's already killed multiple people, where he's thought to have killed multiple people. Does it surprise you that he would mess over a friend in this way? No. No, I mean, if you're willing to poison people to get

their money, you're definitely willing to forge your name, uh, your friend's name. to get money. In September 1855, Palmer tried to take out a life insurance policy worth 25,000 pounds on a man named Bates. Bates was once a wealthy man, but had fallen into some financial troubles. According to an 1856 article from the Daily News, John Cook attested the life insurance proposal. He and Palmer pressured Bates into agreeing to the policy, but ultimately the insurance company didn't go through with it. When you have a problem with people that you knew, but weren't family, trying to take a policy out on you?

Yeah, I think that's why they had to pressure him. Yeah. And you can use your imagination as to what that pressuring entails. Yeah. Could have been pretty extreme. But it's interesting that the insurance company didn't go through with it. I'm assuming that saved the life of this Bates got. it's hard not to think that the plan was to kill him to get their hands on this 25,000 pounds.

Pretty sure it's all it was for. By the way, when we're done, I want you to assign some documents for me. Oh, okay. Yeah. Should I do the usual and not pay any attention to him whatsoever? Just jot your signature down really quick. On November 9th, 1855, Palmer's creditor issued a writ for 4,000 pounds against William Palmer and his mother. So basically he needed to pay this off within days to avoid being found out by his mother.

Palmer knew that a race was taking place in Shrewsbury from November 13th to the 15th. He decided he would go to the race and place more bets to try to make money because that always work. Yeah, when you're in debt and you got to get that money in the very next day, what do you do? You go out and bet more. vet the horses, go to the casino, do something. But let's not forget, that's how he got into all these problems in the first place, right? Gambling. But he's so deep in it that gambling is going to solve it now as well. John Cook also attended the race on November 13th, 1855. His horse Polestar won a race and won him almost 3,000 pounds. Palmer had lost a significant amount of money

by betting on the wrong horse. So not only does he have a serious gambling problem, he's also just really bad at it. Yeah, not good. He's not good at it at all. Now he's got a bigger problem, right? He just lost. Oh, because this was his way out.

Yeah, I'm going to pay off his debt so mom doesn't have to find out. On the night, John Cook won. He gave his friend Ishmael Fisher between 700 and 800 pounds for safekeeping. so he wasn't paid the full 3,000 pounds at once. Ishmael Fisher gave the money back to him in the morning, but it soon went missing. The next day, Cook hosted a big celebration in Shrewsbury, but according to the illustrated times,

after indulging freely in the foreign wines of an English country town, the owner of Polestar took to brandy and water to restore his British solidity. Oh, solidity. Tossing off his glass, He complained that there was something in it which burned his throat. That night, he was very sick and very ill. And Cook was immediately suspicious of William Palmer.

According to Staffordshire Live, he told his friends George Herring and Ishmael Fisher, I believe that damn Palmer has been dosing me. And why would he not think that? Right. He was involved with the guy in a plan, I think, to kill this Bates guy. Maybe they even talked about poison. Maybe he even knew that his friend had poisoned a number of people already for money. Now, he's been targeted.

But despite his suspicion that Palmer poisoned him, the two men returned to Ruzli on November 15th and continued their friendship. I mean, that happens to you and I quite a bit. Yeah, you just don't drink the drinks I bring you anymore. Yeah, I often think that you're trying to poison me, but we somehow always patch it up. and just continue to be friends and put out the podcast. Just look at each other kind of weird when it's mill time. The two met for a drink on November 17th. Afterwards, Cook became sick again.

I think at this point, I'm going to stop drinking with William Palmer. I would do the same thing. Or doing anything with William Palmer. Kind of hard to feel bad for somebody getting sick after having drinks with Palmer, knowing that he knows the type of guy Palmer is. Yeah, it does seem very strange. William Palmer's infant son, Alfred, also became sick and passed away that same day.

William was suspected of his murder, but not prosecuted. And again, I think at some point, you have to take a look at whether this guy has the worst luck in the world. And maybe luck is not the correct term. just tragedy follows this guy around or he's the root of it all. He's the cause of it all. Cook continued displaying symptoms of a mysterious illness over the next few days.

Palmer helped take care of him and brought in things like coffee and broth. So can we just break this down for one second? You know this is a bad guy, right? If you're cooked, you already believe he tried to poison you once. You forgave him. you patched it up. You went drinking with him again. You got very, very sick. But now you're letting him take care of you and feed you things. That just doesn't make sense to me. Here's some coffee. Here's some broth. It will make you feel better. I would say no. Please don't bring me any

broth or coffee. And shouldn't you be mourning the death of your son, by the way? I would say, please, I never want to see you again. On November 19th, Palmer traveled to London to collect the remainder of Cook's race earnings without his knowledge. The payment was just over a thousand pounds. Palmer knew how much money he needed to collect because Cook wrote it down in his betting book, which went missing when Cook got sick. How convenient. The Daily News reported that if Palmer made a payment of a similar amount to Cook's earnings,

he could relieve the pressure from the lenders until January of the next year. Well, he's going to have to do what he has to do. Well, I don't think he had to. I think it was his choice. Of course. I think it was his preferred method, right? I'm going to do whatever it is I want. I'll gamble money, you know, and then when I get in trouble, I'll just kill someone and

collect their life insurance or their money or their money, take their money in some way and I'll get by. And so far, it was kind of working, which is as a scary thought. On November 20th, Palmer went to a chemist shop in Rusely and purchased strychnine, a deadly poison. The National Institute of Health described strychnine as a hard-to-trace organic poison, which is lethal in small doses and decomposes over time. On the evening of the 20th, the doctor named Bamford visited John at home and prescribed him two opiate pills for pain. Palmer took these pills and brought out different ones for Cook to

take. You'll switcheroo? Yeah, it sounds like to switcheroo. My question would be, again, why is this guy still at your house? Yeah. Why are you letting him take care of you? I'm just a good friend here to help you out, man. Cook died around 1 a.m. on November 21st, about an hour after he took the pills, giving him. He to him by Palmer. According to illustrated times, Cook was shrieking and tossed about in fearful convulsions. So it doesn't sound like this was a quick and painless death. It sounds like it was agonizing.

William Palmer immediately wanted Dr. Bamford to label the death as apoplexy, but Bamford felt like further investigation was needed. Well, maybe we finally have someone who, seeing this thing is, is what it really is. Now, maybe he was just trying to cover his own rear end. He had just been there.

He had prescribed, you know, some opiates to cook. And then all of a sudden he died. I would think as a physician, you would be a little worried about that. Yeah, of course.

And wanted, you know, want to make sure that that didn't have anything to do with the death. On November 23rd, John's stepfather arrived in Rusely to represent the family. He didn't trust Palmer. And he noticed that John's betting book and papers were missing.

A maid also informed him that Palmer gave Cook pills just before he died. She also mentioned that Palmer brought over some broth for Cook. When she stuck her finger in it to taste it, she became sick. That's telling. It is telling. Now, I'm not crazy about people working at my house, dipping their fingers in my broth, but... Maybe it was the way to...

Is this warm enough? I guess, I'm assuming this was after he was done eating it. Like, you don't, you know, and there was a movie where the guy was bringing out plates of food and his thumb was in the food. Yeah. I can't remember the name of the movie. But... Every time I ever brought you any soup, when you're like, hey, Gibbs, can you give me another

bowlful that soup that your mom made? The vegetable suit? Make sure. But I'll put my finger in and stir it around. Make sure it's okay. Lick it and then do it again one more time. I just got it right. I appreciate that.

What are friends for? With friends like that. Who needs enemies, right? Is that the old thing? But in all seriousness, I mean, you know, there's a lot of people coming forward now. In casting, what you'd have to say is a lot of suspicion on William Palmer,

really the maids kind of the one singling him out he gave cook pills the broth made her sick when cook's stepfather asked palmer about the betting book he responded for the daily news oh it's of no use a dead man's bets are void yeah i don't know if that's true i mean how do they know he's dead and if they do i mean obviously he laid money down on these bets so right but wouldn't palmer want his stepfather to believe that oh course he would so that he could pretend to be Cook and go collect any winnings. Cook's stepfather requested a post-mortem exam, which took place on November 26th.

Palmer was present during the exam. Why? Why is this guy allowed to be around? I don't know. He's... During all of this stuff. He finds a way to be there. The exam was conducted by medical student Charles Devonshire

and his assistant, Charles Newton, who was allegedly drunk during the procedure. When Newton was removing John's stomach from his body, Palmer bumped into him, which caused the contents of the stomach to spill onto the floor. Oh, how convenient. And nasty. That sounds very, very nasty. The remaining stomach contents were put into a sealed jar. Palmer was later suspected of cutting the seal and attempting to steal the jar.

If they can't test it, they're never know. Again, why is this guy even in the room? I don't know. Obviously, today's world, none of this would ever happen. No, it wouldn't happen. After the post-mortem exam was complete, Palmer wrote a letter to the corner, requesting a verdict of natural causes. He enclosed a 10-pound note with his letter.

Dear sir, I need the letter to read this and here's payment for that, basically, right? Yeah. He's not trying to get a choice table at a fancy restaurant and impress a date. He's trying to get the. medical examiner to say that this man died of natural causes. Well, he's working all the angles. Well, and speaking of that, he also tried to get the local postmaster, Samuel Cheshire, to intercept the chemical report before it was sent to the corner.

Cheshire later went to prison for mail tampered. He was somebody that was willing to do this stuff. Well, people are willing to do stuff if you waive enough money in front of them, some people, I should say. The next major development in the case occurred when a chemist assistant admitted to selling the strychnine poison to Palmer. A police inspector searched Palmer's house and found a medical book about poison. Palmer wrote on a page about stricknine,

Stricknine kills by causing titanic fixing of the respiratory muscles. Now, it sounds so easy, right, with the way that we've laid everything out. but you have to figure that not everybody was privy to all this information or else it would have been pretty easy to, you know, make a case against this guy and put him in prison. The coroner's inquest opened on November 29. No poison was found in Cook's body, but the corner believed he was murdered based on all the other evidence. On December 15th, the jury determined that the deceased died of poison willfully administering

ministered to him by William Palmer. Palmer was quickly arrested and charged with murder. So this is pretty interesting. Not that he was charged and arrested with murder because everybody should have seen that coming. Yeah. And it probably should have happened much, much earlier, but that the coroner didn't find any poison in Cook's body, but yet still believe he was murdered.

And the jury thought that William Palmer did give him. poison. Well, if they heard the same story, you know, about the, uh, bumping into the corner why he was trying to remove the stomach contents and it all went over the floor, you're like, why did he do that? Was it accidental or? I bet you one of them asked, why was this guy even in the room? And why is he in the room with us right now? He was in the jury. Yeah. In the jury room? The remains of Anne and Walter Palmer were exhumed, but there was not enough evidence to charge Palmer in their deaths. William Palmer's trial started on May 14th, 1856. He was granted a change of venue beforehand.

The trial was moved from Staffordshire to the old Bailey in London due to pre-trial publicity and his prominence in the community. So that's really been around the long time, that change of anything. Yeah. Palmer pleaded not guilty to the murder charge. and the Attorney General spent four hours outlining the prosecution's case. Several experts testified about Cook's poor health and his cause of death. Dr. Alfred Swain Taylor was the one who testified as to the contents of John Cook's stomach. He said that all he found was a small non-lethal amount of antimont, which was the active ingredient of the commonly used medicine,

Tartar emetic. Oh. It's not one I'm familiar with. Yeah. I've heard of steak tartar. Oh, this is different. But based on John's symptoms and the circumstances surrounding his death,

Dr. Taylor concluded that he was poisoned. So again, kind of interesting, right? He didn't find any poison, but he's saying he was poisoned. Which is strange. And I think that's why the defense go after that. How can you say that? You don't have any proof. Yeah, the defense question Dr. Taylor

in the practice of toxicology. Palmer's lawyers argued that Taylor had no direct knowledge of the effects of strychnine and had only observed its effects on rabbits in an experiment 20 years earlier. They also claimed he was biased and made prejudicial statements to the press and brought in experts that contradicted him. The prosecution countered that because, Because Palmer tampered with the evidence during the post-mortem exam, a thorough chemical analysis was impossible. And that Palmer's experience as a doctor gave him the skill to murder John with minimal doses of strychnine that would decompose over time. And we did say it does decompose over time. One of the key witnesses was William Scaife Gibson, probably Gibby's long lost great, great, great, great grandfather.

Very famous, very famous. William Skate? Yeah. Well, he was a surgeon from Shrewsbury. He visited John Cook when he complained of stomach pain and a burning throat. After winning the race, Cook told him he thought he had been poisoned. Gibson gave him an emetic to make him vomit. He didn't see anything concerning when he inspected the vomit.

Because, you know, that's what you have to do. Inspect that vomit. I was not aware of that. Yeah. But I do think it's interesting. thing, right, that he thought he'd been poisoned earlier. Another witness was Ann Brooks. She came to Palmer at the races to ask a question about a jockey.

She said that she saw him pouring fluid from a small bottle into a tumbler and then shaking it up. Okay, in light of everything we talked about, that sounds pretty ominous. But in a vacuum, that could be anything. It could be. That could be him adding a little, you know, know, kick to some other drink out of his own personal inventory. Yeah, like you do every time we record.

Yeah. Well, I'm sure not going to drink the swill that you bring. Must wheel. It's good stuff. How many times I told you stop buying your alcohol at the discount marks? Nothing wrong with it. It's just... Anything less than $5 should not be ingested.

Let's just put it that way. I don't really like the labels though they have, you know, when you go to like these conferences and they... They give you those, hello my name is. I mean, that's how those labels are. Hello, my name is, and they write on it, Mr. Whiskey. That's just a generic, generic label. William Henry Jones was John Cook's personal doctor.

He testified that Palmer summoned him to Rusely with a letter dated November 18, 1855. He arrived on November 20th. It seemed like Cook was doing slightly better. Both he and Dr. Bamford visited Coole, Cook several times that day. He testified that Palmer proposed that Dr. Bamford get morphine pills for Cook. Palmer was the one who brought the pills out around 11 p.m. Cook vomited after taking the pills, but he didn't vomit up the pills.

Okay, that doesn't sound good, right? That really puts a bad light on Palmer. It does. Later that night, Cook asked Jones to send for Palmer. He experienced convulsions for five to ten minutes before he went rigid and asked to sit up. Some of Cook's final words were, turn me over. He had gone rigid and was in extreme agony as he gradually grew weaker and died. Again, does not sound like an easy way to go.

No, sounds terrible. Yeah, it sounds like it was a very, very painful death. But I am somewhat confused as to why Cook would, you know, ask his personal doctor to sin for William Palmer. Maybe he just really had this strange friendship. I don't know. Jones testified that he thought Cook died from tetanus, which caused his heart to stop.

Several sources noted that strict nine poison has a similar effect on the body as tetanus. After Cook died, Palmer told Jones that the death was bad for him because they owed about 3,000 pounds. He said he hoped John's friends would assist him or all the horses would be seized. Because that's the first thing you think about when your quote unquote good friend has died. Yeah, money. The death was bad for him.

Next, chemist assistant Charles Newton testified that Palmer purchased strict nine on November 19th. On November 25th, he went to Palmer's house for a drink. and Palmer asked him how much strychnine it would take to kill a dog. Palmer also asked what the stomach would look like after death. He replied, there would be no inflammation. On the morning of the postmortem exam, Palmer told him it would be a dirty job and gave him two wine glasses of brandy.

Newton testified that he didn't tell the coroner about the strychnine and didn't tell his employer because his employer wasn't friends with Palmer. The first time he brought it up was when he spoke to the solicitor for John's stepfather. He also did not record the sale of the poison. Well, that's interesting. Didn't record the sale? Well, I'm thinking these guys were kind of friends. Yeah.

Maybe Palmer asked him not to record it. Maybe he pocket the money Palmer gave him. Maybe. I don't know. Charles Joseph Roberts, a druggist apprentice, testified that he sold Prussic acids. and strict nine to Palmer on November 20th along with opium. He didn't make an entry of the purchase because he had a habit of not recording purchases.

A lot of these guys were really bad at recording purchases of lethal, lethal, lethal poisons. Somebody's not doing their job right over there. It's also interesting that Palmer allegedly purchased strict nine on the 19th and then again on the 20th. He realized that he didn't get enough strict 9. the first time? Needed that extra. Or did he have plans

that was going to involve additional amounts of stricknine? Palmer's defense argued there was no motive and pointed out the fact that no poison was found in John's body. And that was true, right? Nobody really could determine

that there was poison in his body. But again, that stricnine apparently decomposed pretty quickly, I guess. But then, you know, we also have the fact that he spilled, the guy's stomach contents all over the floor, so we don't really know what was in there. Before the trial closed, the judge asked the jury to consider the moral evidence. He pointed out that Palmer had stolen John Cook's money and made efforts to cover up what he did.

The Penny Illustrated paper reported about the trial, link by link, an irresistible chain of evidence would round Palmer, indisputably, it was proved that Palmer was the man who poisoned his friend. Never was a foul murder more conclusively brought home to any murder. All right. I might argue with that statement a little bit. Yeah. Because,

you know, I think it's interesting that the judge asked the jury to consider the moral evidence because it doesn't seem as though they had a ton of what you would maybe think of as direct evidence. There's no eyewitnesses that saw him kill cook. Now, people said they saw him give him some pills. Okay. But there's no poison found in the body. How do you know he gave him poison? Right. It's, uh, it's a little tenuous, the connection there. But I think when you do add it all together, for sure, the things he had done before, the things he had done before, the things he did that night, the things he did after death at the postmortem.

It's strange, though, to say moral for the judge to say that. Yeah, he's just saying, look at all the bad stuff he did, I guess. William Palmer was found guilty of murder on May 27, 1856, after an hour of jury deliberation. He was sentenced to death that same day. And he was executed on June 14th at the Stafford prison. And you and I have talked about this before. Or, you know, back in the old days, there wasn't housing people who were put to death for a very long time. They didn't mess around.

This man was executed within three weeks of being found guilty and sentenced to death. Now, some might argue that people sit on death row for too long. Others would argue there shouldn't be a death row at all. Well, it's because there's been so many cases that have been overturned. Yes. there have been. And when you hear about those cases, it makes you wonder. What gives you a pause?

It does. I mean, I'm not advocating that we put people to death within three weeks at all. There is a process by which to appeal and all of that. I understand that. And I think it's come out that there are some good reasons for that. Before his execution, his family came to the prison to visit him often. He professed his innocence. during these meetings.

And I don't know how much family he had left. He killed the majority of his immediate family. Yeah. It seems like it wasn't proven, but it's kind of hard not to think he didn't. Maybe it was his mom. He killed his brother. Yeah, maybe.

One of his brothers. I'm assuming whoever did come visit him was like, you feel safe being on this side of the bars. Yeah, well, we're not sharing drinks or, you know, anything like that. Palmer's brother-in-law, Heywood was one of his final visitors. Hayward encouraged Palmer to relieve his mind if he was guilty by asking him to confirm whether or not his sentence was just.

According to the Daily News, Palmer replied, it is not. And what would you expect this guy to say? Just all of a sudden break down and say, yeah, I did it? I think he would just hold to his, uh, it wasn't me. It's not going to be, it's not going to be a long time. No. on the very morning of his execution, Palmer visited with the prison chaplain, got dressed and had a cup of tea. He said he felt very comfortable and happy and was quite prepared.

I find that hard to believe that anyone facing certain death would be very comfortable and happy and prepared. I think sometimes people put on this persona. Yeah, no, I could see this being an act, but when he was asked if he thought it was time to admit that it, sentence was fair, he replied, no. He added, they are my murderers, but didn't specify who he was talking about. He then repeated, I am murdered. They are my murderers. The chaplain was one of the last people who spoke to Palmer. He asked Palmer one last time to admit that his sentence was just. Palmer replied, it is not a just sentence. The chaplain said, then your blood will be upon your own head. Okay, kind of rough coming from the chaplain. Yeah, really. I'm not sure he's not wrong,

but it's just a little rough. Basically, you're screwed, buddy. You're screwed. Palmer was led to the gallows later that morning. It was reported that he looked down at the trap door and asked the executioner, are you sure it's safe? Meaning what? The door's not going to, the door is going to hold my weight until you open it, obviously it's not safe. It is designed to kill you. Exactly. It's safe to walk out there right now. Palmer's last words were,

I am innocent of poisoning cook by Stricknought. And it was said that over 30,000 people witnessed the execution. Some of them Gibbs waited all night in the rank to secure their spot. According to the BBC, a local rope maker sold sections of Palm. News as souvenirs. That's bizarre. It is bizarre. But what does it prove?

It proves that people have always had a fascination with crime and justice. That's true. They've always had that. Yeah, we know back in the day, you know, people came out for the hangings. Come on out. Yeah. Let's see what's going to happen the day. And the kings and.

Well, think about like the Coliseum. Oh, yeah. And the gladiators and all that. They made it into a show. Yeah, they made it into a show. But 30,000 people. I mean, that's like a major league baseball. Yeah.

Stadium, almost. I mean, if you're in the back of that, how you, what are you really seeing? I don't know. Is that, I think that's him hanging now, I think. Maybe they had risers back then. I don't know. It's just a lot of people. Historically, Palmer's case has been treated as a morality.

to warn people about the dangers of gambling. For example, in an 1888 article, the Sheffield Independent reported that vice gambling fraud in addition to murder were his stepping stones to the scaffold. And I don't think that's incorrect. There's no doubt that gambling played a huge role in his life. And I think a huge role in why he did some of the things he did. Well, I think so too. He needed that money to pay off.

his gambling debt or to gamble more. Now, it could be that he was a bad guy and if it wasn't gambling, it was going to be something else or, you know, he would just want more money, greed. I don't know, but gambling seems to have played a huge role. We'll never truly know if William Palmer really murdered up to 15 people, but I think you'd have to say, based on the suspicious circumstances surrounding the deaths of his wife, his mother-in-law, his brother and his children, many people believe that he did. It's hard to think he didn't murder them for sure.

And if he's able to murder them, if he's able to murder Cook and these other people to get their money, is it that hard to conceive that he would have murdered a larger number along the way? For me, it's not, it's not that hard. It's not that hard for me either. no doubt his ultimate motive was money he struggled with an addiction to gambling and like you said i think earlier gibbs he was just willing to do anything that he had the do to continue to support his addiction yeah and i get it a lot of people are whether you talk about gambling or drugs or or

whatever it is but the thought that you could kill your wife and a number of your children to support a gambling addiction. And I think that's really tough for most people to comprehend. Now, is it that hard to think that somebody might steal from someone or, you know, cheat people out of their money to support a gambling addiction? No, but to kill your own flesh and blood, your brother. Yeah. And what about his kids?

And his kids, yeah. That's really hard to kind of wrap your head around. I mean, let's say he got money for his kids dying. but maybe he just didn't want to spend the money feeding them. Yeah, that was a little strange, I think, in the research. It's possible that he took out policies on them. It didn't say that. But I doubt it.

In some cases, I don't think he probably even had time to. So maybe it is something more along the lines of what you're saying because he was strapped for cash, because he needed all the money he could get to support his gambling addiction, he didn't want the mouths to have to feed. He didn't want money going to that endeavor. And so he killed his children. And that's just a nasty, nasty thing to think about. But that's it for our episode on William Palmer. We've got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, y'all. My name is Jennifer. And I'm originally from Louisiana, but I live in Indiana.

And I just came across y'all's podcast. And I have started bingeing from the very first episode and working my way up. I came up on the Robert Charles Brown episode where you're trying to pronounce a parish in Louisiana. And I know you've probably got a million calls on it already by now because this was ages ago. But the proper way to say it is not Kashata. It's Kashada. Just wanted to put that out there. And I had to call and let you guys know. I love your podcast. I am so addicted to this. It ain't even funny. I'm headed to New York City tomorrow. And it's going to be on all the way there and all the way back. All right, guys, have a good one.

Take care. Keep your own time ticking. New York City. New York City. That's where they make that salsa you like Gibbs. They do. That's nothing to shadow. Somebody sent me the pace or pecanty, whatever commercial back in the day where

they say that. New York City. No, we appreciate that. Yeah, we did hear a lot about that one and pretty much every town that we say incorrectly. I try to correct them all the time. You do. I just don't listen to you. It's a lot of work. Encyclopedia Brown over there somehow knows how to say it all, but I just go with what I want to. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Chelsea from Missouri. I've been a listener for almost a year now. You guys are fantastic. I don't have a team. You're just my favorite all together.

I'm calling because I want to say it's not so abnormal that someone would want to, you know, take a nap or a shower or make a sandwich after committing a murder. Okay, like this. So something so traumatic happens in your brain that somewhere subconsciously you just want to do something normal. So it's not so far-fetched, and I guess in a way I understand it. I understand murdering somebody certainly, but I understand being in a traumatic event and wanting to do something normal or doing something normal. Anyway, I just thought I'd share my thoughts. Anyway, you guys, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

Bye. All right. Thanks for the voicemail. Yeah, that's a way to look at it. I've never thought about it that way. But maybe it's because I don't think a lot of these killers that we talk about view what they just did. as a traumatic experience. Yeah.

Some do. Some do, but I don't think a lot of them do, especially the serial killer. So, yeah, I don't know. But interesting. Yeah, there definitely is something to it. There's a possibility there. But we appreciate the voicemails very much. Had no mailbag this week, Gibbs, but I know there's something waiting.

Something waiting. So we will be. From Santa? From Santa. No, it's too early for Santa. but we'll be talking about some mailbag next week for sure. Okay. But that is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.