True Crime All The Time - William Sullivan and Nicole Kasinskas

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

14-year-old Nicole Kasinskas met 16-year-old William Sullivan online. Both teenagers were shy, but their online romance blossomed very quickly. It also turned deadly when the pair determined that Nicole's mother, Jeanne Dominico, was standing in the way of them being together.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murderous teenagers Billy Sullivan and Nicole Kasinskas. Billy and Nicole became so wrapped and obsessed with each other that they would have done anything to keep their relationship alive. When Nicole's mother got in the way of that, the pair planned her murder. They tried multiple times and on the 3rd time, Billy hit Jeanne with a baseball bat and stabbed her to death while Nicole sat across the street at a 7-Eleven reading a newspaper. The coldness displayed by these teenagers is scary.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 263 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. I'm having a good week. Okay. Looking forward to my daughter coming home after her exams. She's going to be home for close to a month. And you're going to love that. I know. I'm really excited. And she said she was excited too, which I was a little shocked by. Yeah, but you take it. I'll take it. That's a good feeling to know that she's excited to come home. Let's start out with our Patreon shoutouts. We had Aaron Williams. Hey, thanks, Aaron. Jennifer Frank.

What's going on, Jennifer? Brooke Adams. Hey, appreciate that, Brooke. Mike Morgan. Hey, Mike. Samantha Helt jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Samantha? Lisa Neal.

There's Lisa. Layla George. We appreciate that, Leila. Lori Gossard. Well, thanks. Gossard. Wendy. Hey, Wendy.

Kathy Heslip. What's up, Hesslip? Mary Chapman. Appreciate that, Mary. Laminah Armstrong. Ooh, Laminah. Adriana Couch jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Adriana.

And last but not least, Sigurdis Brynjolf's daughter. Well, good old Benjolf's daughter. Yeah. So we got that going for us. We do. And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Anna Palin. Hey, thanks, Anna.

So, you know, it's a lot of great. great support, the new support, the continued support on Patreon. We had some PayPal donations from Melissa Richards. Hey, Melissa. Aubrey Eldridge. I appreciate that, Aubrey. And Sarah Crook. Oh, good old Sarah.

Yeah, so thanks to all of you as well. Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're headed to Australia to talk about the Crawford family murders. Yeah, that's a good case. You know, it was occurred back in 1970, unresolved. We're going to look at, obviously, the murder of the three kids and the mom. And then we're going to dive into suspects and the search for the dad, Elmer. And we're going to what's going on today with the case.

Yeah, it's definitely a good episode. Make sure you check that out. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Man, I am ready. We're talking about two youngsters, William, Sullivan and Nicole Kacenskas. We've done some episodes like this before. You know, this is young romance, parents who don't want one of the kids to see the other,

and it results in the murder of a parent. And I think, you know, the big thing for me, Gibbs, is when you think about teenage romances, right, they're normally, I say normally, brief relationships that last, what? A few months, maybe six months. Again, I'm saying normally there are outliers. But either way, no one really ever expects a teenage love affair to turn deadly. No, I don't think anyone's ever thinking like that. When William Sullivan and Nicole Kisenskis met in an online chat room, their romance spiraled

into obsession within just a few days. Then that obsession turned into a plot for murder when Nicole's mother refused to allow her to live with her boyfriend. Together, the teens came up with a plot to murder Nicole's mother and they went through with it. So this really was a relationship that was kind of a combination teenage immaturity, love, obsession, impulsiveness, romance. I mean, there's just, you can throw all types of things into the mix, you know, but I think it comes back to that teenage romance. And it's something I know we've talked about before, which is, you know, when you're 15, 16, 17 years old, that infatuation, that love that you're feeling in that

current relationship, it's, it's like the everything. Oh, of course. Yeah. It's all encompassing. The thought of that person leaving you or breaking up with you or let's say, when if if and when they do it's the end of the world gut wrenching sure yeah and at that moment that's your whole world yeah i think that's exactly right and i want to play a short clip of nicole from an interview that she did with dan habit because of the way that our relationship was because he had become so much a part of my life and i mean i really didn't feel like i was anything without him. I had nothing in my life at that time I felt at that time.

So the thought of losing him in that way just wasn't okay with me, you know? And that is unfortunately when conversations started about ultimately what, ultimately what happened. I think she's saying Gibbs exactly what you and I just talked about. Right. Billy Sullivan was her entire world at that point in time. Now, this interview was a lot longer. It was about 10 minutes, maybe even more. If anybody wants to listen to it, you can go out. Dan Habib has his own YouTube channel. He does a lot of interviews with people in prison. So I highly recommend checking it out. Gene Domenico was a loving mother. She was described as a kind woman. She was a single mother to two children, Nicole and Charlie. Gene worked as a paraprofessional at

Birch Hill Elementary School. She coached baseball at the Lincoln Park baseball field. Gene worked three jobs to support her family, one of them at a 7-Eleven across the street from her house. So single mother, who at this point is working three jobs to make sure that her kids are taken care of. Yeah. They have a meal on the table, roof over their head. Gene was a compassionate person who always reached out to those in need. Amy Beth Kaczynskis, Nicole's step sister, told the Hartford Curran, I want people to realize this isn't some chick with a psycho daughter. This is my parent. So let's talk about Nicole a little bit.

Nicole Kaczynskis was born in 1987 in Nashua, New Hampshire. Sounds familiar. It does sound familiar. I'm not sure what Nashua is best known for, but to me, it's where Holly Flacks on the office moved to after, you know, corporate found out that she and Michael were dating. Maybe that's where I know from. That may be. That's, uh, I just happened to be watching. watching the office right now. And I just watched some of those episodes recently. Now, I know I'm going

to get a ton of emails and learn that Nashua was famous for this or this or this. I'm sure it is. Right. Famous for other things. I just only happened to know it because of the office. Nicole lived with her brother Charlie and her mother, Jean. Nicole grew up without a father. And we talked about it. Gene had to work three jobs. So, Nicole had to do a lot of chores. She also had to take care of her brother. It was said Gibbs that this took a toll on Nicole's social life. She was introverted and she really only had one close friend.

She was an attractive girl, but never had any boyfriends because she was painfully shot. And a lot of people said that Nicole and Jean were each other's best friends. I think it had to be hard on both of them, right? The mom, because she's working all the time. I know she wants to be home. Sure. With her kids. Who doesn't?

And it was hard on Nicole, too, because Nicole had to take care of her and her brother. Yeah. Well, she's got to pick up the slack and do some of the things that a parent would normally do because her mom's not there. Right. And there's no other parent to help out. Right. And, you know, three jobs. You know, two jobs is rough.

Sure. Three jobs is tough. I mean, extremely tough. I mean, to me, you're just about finding time to sleep and not much else. Yeah. And in between all that, you've got to try to be a parent. Try to be. Yeah. In October 2000, Gene started dating a man named Chris McGowan with whom she worked. They fell in love. And they got engaged pretty quickly. Chris took on a fatherly role and loved Gene's children like his own. It's been speculated on that Nicole felt isolated because, okay, her mom has a new husband. Maybe she and her mom weren't as close as they were before. I could see how that could happen. I think as a single mother, that bond would be very, very strong. It's like me and you and your brother against the world type of thing. Right. But now you've got a new. A new, person in your life. Yeah.

Who obviously you love because you got engaged. There's no doubt that the relationship between mother and daughter is going to change to some degree. Yeah, I think it kind of has to, right? And if you feel like you're being left out, where do you go to find the support you need? Where do you go to find that person or persons that will listen to you when you need to get something off your chest?

Well, for Nicole, it was on. online chat rooms. That was a place where she could make friends. She was also able to confidently talk to boys, something that she'd never really been able to do before. Gives you and I have had discussions before about people being braver online than they are in real life. Now, normally we're talking about people being hateful, right? Saying things, kind of hate-filled type stuff that they wouldn't say to your face, but they feel comfortable saying it online because maybe some anonymity, some distance, space, whatever. Absolutely.

But it also works the other way. Things that maybe you can't do in real life or you're not comfortable with talking to people, members of the opposite sex or people that you would normally be attracted to, you just can't walk up to them and talk to them. painfully shy, right? Some people are just that shy. Well, the internet allows people to do things like that. Yeah, they can't do in real life. Yeah, more confidence. Sure. Nicole met William or Billy, as he's known, on the internet in 2002. At the time, she was 14 and he was 16. And, you know, by all indications she was immediately attracted to Billy because he was a handsome older boy who showed

interest in her. Yeah, he's actually going to listen to what she has to say and she's going to like that. Well, they also had a lot in common. Both of their parents were divorced. Their fathers weren't in their lives and they both struggled with social anxiety. Nicole and Billy talked openly about their struggles with making friends. And I think fairly quickly, they decided that they wanted to pursue a relationship with each other. I think because they had so many things in common that they felt comfortable with each other. And isn't that naturally how it works? You're kind of drawn to people who share your same interests or who you have things in common with. Billy told Nicole that he loved her within just a few days of their first instant message conversation.

It's pretty quick. It's really quick. For, you know, two people or, you know, at least on his part, they've never met. Right. They've never even spoken in person at this point in time. Yes. This is purely typing on a computer screen. Yeah.

Now, you can develop those type of feelings. think online over time. I think so. That's how some people get catfished. Sure. We've talked about that. We've even done some stories involving that. But in a day or two, super quick.

That's pretty quick. It was after this point that they started talking on the phone. Nicole found out that Billy lived just two hours away. And Gibbs, they were talking on the phone so much that Nicole racked up an $800 phone bill. That would get my attention. and if I was a parent. Well, that would be a lot of money for anyone, right? No matter what type of money you're making.

We're talking about a woman who at one point was working three jobs to keep everything afloat. Now, I get it. She's engaged. And I'm sure Chris was helping out at that point. But you got to figure that $800 phone bill didn't go over very well. Yeah. I remember at one point when I was in junior high. I was so-called, you know, dating a girl that lived in a...

Did you just use air quotes? I did. Okay. Yeah. I thought this was going to go a different route when you discovered like 900 numbers or something like that. Okay. Yeah. So you're dating a girl.

Yeah. And she lived in a long distance. Allegedly. Yeah. She lived in one of those, you know, areas that was considered long distance, even though it was not that far away. Exactly. Yeah. I get you.

Back in the. day. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I just thought it was this, I'll just dial up and talk, you know. And I remember I had a pretty large bill that I had to pay off. But also, after that, you know, like that relationship wasn't going to go any further. You live way too far away. Is that way you use the air quotes? I did. But, you know, $800 is a lot of money. Nicole had to get a job. Yeah. Just to pay for this phone bill. That's expensive, man. A few weeks later, Nicole told her mother, Gene about Billy. Gene was surprised.

I think she was a little concerned. Now, on the one hand, she wanted Nicole to meet people, to have friends. I think her big concern Gibbs was, you know, whether or not this Billy was who he was saying he was. Now, he was. In this instance, he was telling the truth. But I think as parents, we all know that, you know, if you've got to be a lot of, you know, if you've got a 14-year-old daughter who's talking to someone online who says they're 16. Right.

It doesn't mean they are 16. Exactly. It could be a 42-year-old pedophile. Yeah. Who is what they call grooming, right? We've talked about that before as well. Yeah. I mean, you're just going to have those general concerns as a parent.

Yeah. And you should. And you're right to be worried and want to know more about this person and all that. Billy was a teenager from Willamantic, Connecticut. He and his family moved there in 1999. He was a junior in high school when he and Nicole began chatting. William worked at him McDonald's near his home. He was described as eager, friendly, and shy.

The Willamantic police had been called to his home two times in the two years leading up to this point in time that we're talking about. his mother Patricia was concerned because he stopped taking his medication and she thought that he might be suicidal. William had a loud argument with one of his sisters and the police were called on a domestic disturbance call. But neighbors said that other than, you know, these couple incidents, a few occasional, you know, loud fights or whatever, William was a polite and respectful boy. Just the average boy next door then. But Billy had a pretty difficult childhood.

His father was an alcoholic who abandoned his family when he was a child. Billy's mother also struggled with alcoholism. He was molested by a neighbor at a pretty young age. I mean, by the time he was four years old, Gibbs, he was in counseling. That's pretty rough. Yeah. At age eight, he started taking medication because he was diagnosed as emotional. disturbed. Well, going through what he went through, I can understand that. It would almost be

kind of difficult not to be emotionally disturbed. Right. You're going through a lot of things that are going to mess with your emotions. He had a lot of violent outbursts, most of them directed at his mother and sister. Billy once attacked his sister and a social worker with the baseball bat. He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, ADHD, defiance disorder, and intermittent explosive disorder. So it's a lot going on. It's a lot of disorders. And all of them really being diagnosed at a fairly young age. But by age 16, William was doing a lot better.

He was taking his medication. He had kind of developed a structure. He had a routine in his life. When he began dating Nicole, he decided to stop taking his medication because as he put it, he wanted to feel the full passion and intensity of the relationship. Didn't want to feel numb. Didn't want to dull this new and exciting relationship that he was starting. But I think we all know, right, the dangers of just stopping medications.

There's a huge risk involved. When Gene found out that Billy didn't have a car or a license, she offered to drive Nicole to Connecticut. And I think she did this gives because she wanted to supervise their first meeting. Very smart. Very smart. I mean, number one, I'm not sure how she was going to get there anyway, but wanting to supervise. Hey, I want to see this kid.

I want to meet this kid. I might, I want to meet this kid's parents. Yeah, exactly. This is not an individual with whom you go to school. You know, you can't look him up in the yearbook. You can't walk down the street or drive across town and meet his parents. I want to make sure he is who he says he is. Yeah, exactly.

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about how intense their relationship was, being that it was, you know, fairly new. But she was very happy that Nicole was finally in a relationship and that she was gaining some confidence. Yeah, I think as a parent, you probably are happy about that. But you're also somewhat concerned when they tell each other they love each other within days. Yeah. And I think as a parent, you know, you can see, wow, this seems very intense. for a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old who met online, you know, spoke on the phone,

but are, you know, really meeting for the first time. Okay. Yeah. Pretty intense. Nicole visited Billy again in the fall of 2002. They participated in a fake wedding ceremony during this visit. They even talked about moving in together, setting up a joint bank account.

Nicole was so attached to Billy. that she stayed with him even after she found out that he cheated on her. And I think you kind of heard a little bit of it in that clip. And I think maybe you said it Gibbs. They were so wrapped up in each other or at the very least she was so wrapped up into him that I think she did view him as her whole world. Yeah. She didn't know anything else. But let's go back to this fake wedding.

Okay, we talked about intense. That's pretty intense. It's really intense, man. You're talking about moving in together, getting a joint bank account. These are young kids. Yeah, I mean, 14, 16, talking about let's get married, let's get a joint bank account, let's get a place together. Meanwhile, she's two years away from driving and what, probably maybe a freshman, most likely, a freshman in high school at this time. Yeah.

He's got a lot of years in front of her. In November of that year, Nicole told Billy that there were obstacles that prevented her from living with him. But staying in Nashua wasn't an option for her. According to the Hartford current, she told him, I just want to get out of this hellhole and go back to heaven. So what do you make from that? Nashua is her hellhole. Yeah.

And he's her heaven. Whatever she has to do to get back to him. That's what she wants to do. Exactly. Nicole's friend Cassidy Dion later testified that Billy was a jealous person. He once stormed out of a restaurant when he saw Nicole hug a male friend. She also said that Billy hated Nicole's mother, Jean. Well, maybe he hated her because of things that he learned with the conversations he had with Nicole,

or the fact that Nicole and Jean were close. maybe he didn't like someone being that close to Nicole besides himself. Yeah, I think if you're a very, very jealous person, an extremely jealous person, maybe you do feel that way. Yeah. In the spring of 2003, Billy got his license and Nicole was excited because that meant that he'd be able to see her more often. You know, at this point, Billy's 18, Nicole was 16.

and was said in all the papers, Gibbs, that Billy's mom was not as strict as Gene. Now, he was 18 years old. So, you know, he was bound to have quite a bit more freedom. But he basically, I think, was allowed to go anywhere he wanted whenever he wanted. That's not going to be the same for Nicole. No, she's only 16 years old. She's not going to have near the freedom.

And Gene insisted that all their visits had to be supervised. by a parent. So there's no doubt she was very protective. In the summer of 2003, Billy came to visit Nicole in Nashua for a week. He arrived on August 1st and as reported that Billy tried his best to kind of get on Gene's good side. Right. He was kind. He was respectful. He even helped around the house. And apparently she was so impressed with Billy that she finally allowed the teens to spend some time together unsupervised. Now, at that age, I was always trying to impress my girlfriend's parents. Yeah.

Normally the mom, right? You got to win over the mom. The mom's the key, at least in my experience. Well, if you can win the mom over, that's more than half the battle. Yeah, I believe it is. I just never did it, you know, out of some type of nefarious thinking. There was nothing really more to it than, hey, you know, I want these people to like me.

Yeah. I want them to see me as a good guy. I, I think for Billy, I got the sense that it was all about, yeah, wanting Gene to see him as a good guy. But for the end goal of, hey, give us some space. Yeah. And if I'm good enough, if I'm nice enough, if I can get to the point where she sees me as this respectable young. man, then she'll back off. But I'm sure they were really excited to have someone alone time. Yeah, I'm sure they were. The problem is as soon as they got that freedom, they began plotting

to kill Gene so that Nicole could move in with Billy. And I mean, things happened very quickly. Gibbs, I said he got there on August 1st. On August 3rd, they put bleach and cold medicine in Gene. half and half. I don't know why they thought that would have worked. I'm sure you could smell the bleach and something like that. I know I've mentioned when I used to have a different job that one time I cleaned out that water tank reserve with some bleach and didn't rinse it out very well.

And then one of the employees came in and took a cup of ice cold water and spit it out and thought their throat was burning because of the residue I left when I cleaned that water reserve out the bleach. You could have been charged with some type of negligent homicide. I probably could have. Well, the next day, they bought a long rope and inserted it into the house's oil tank to try to blow up the house. It's crazy. This is like, you know, you see in a movie where, you know, no country for old men where, uh, uh, he sticks the, uh, the piece of cloth into the car. gas tank. Yeah.

Opening. He lights it on fire and he blows up the car. They're like, let's use this long rope as a fuse. That should work. On August 5th, they tried to burn Jean's mattress while she was sleeping in her bed. But the bedding was fire retardant. I wonder how that went over. Yeah.

I'm like, okay, obviously she probably didn't know about the first couple of tries, but I'm not really sure how she didn't know. she didn't know that somebody was trying to set her bet on fire. Right. But either way, you know, all these plans failed. So Billy told Nicole that she should write a letter asking for emancipation. So she did, right? She's basically Gibbs going to do whatever Billy tells her to do.

Right. We know that at this point. She's so wrapped up into this relationship. She even said it in that short clip. So she wrote it. And of course, it didn't go over well. She got into a huge argument with her mother. And Gene basically ended the argument by saying that Nicole was no longer allowed to see Billy.

And I think right then and there, that's when Nicole and Billy decided that they needed to get rid of Gene as quickly as possible. Not like they didn't try right. Right. They had already tried. But now it's like it's a have to. right she's drawing a line in the sand she's forbidding us to see each other exactly on august six billy entered the home and began talking to jean they talked for about 20 minutes but jean got angry because nicole wasn't at home she started arguing with billy billy would later say that at one

point he saw jean's mouth moving but all he could think about was that she was never going to let him see Nicole again. I mean, Gibbs, I'm picturing like he's in a rage. Right. The words are coming out, but he's not understanding them. He's not listening to them. He's got one thought that is running through his mind. And the anger is just increasing. Right. The rage is building up, building up. And what he decided to do was to strike Gene in the back with a baseball bat. then he hit her in the head which split her skull open. So this is brutal. It is.

But Gene got up and she ran through the house, trying to get away from him. So Billy grabbed a knife from the kitchen and he stabbed Gene in the shoulder so hard that the knife blade broke. It's a very violent attack for sure. Yeah, this is not an I'm upset with you attack. I mean, no attack is good, right? but this is more of a, I'm going to kill you attack. Billy grabbed another knife

and he held Jean down while he stabbed her in the neck and throat. Gibbs in total, he stabbed her over 40 times and used three different knives to do it. Horrific. And according to the Hartford current, the last thing Gene said was,

okay, I'm done. And I mean, really when you picture it, this is a heartbreak. scene. A young man attacking a mother, her skull is cracked. She's been stabbed 40 times. To me, that statement is basically, that's it for me. I know I'm going to die. That's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. Billy's anger was so intense. Yeah. And then afterwards, he went upstairs to change clothes and clean up. Nicole, while all this was going on, waited at the 7-Eleven across the street. She read a teen magazine while she knew that Billy was murdering her mother. After they met up,

they left the area to continue to try to establish their alibis. So cold-hearted. Well, and you said that he was cold. Right. I mean, she's very cold as well. mom used to be her best friend. And I'm going to sit and read Teen Beat or whatever it's called nowadays. I don't know what it is. While I know that my boyfriend is murdering my mother. Yeah. Because I didn't like how she said I couldn't be with him. You and I talk a lot about serial killers and, you know, how cold they are, their lack of empathy. I think it's rough to say it this way, but you kind of expect it from a serial killer. It's just how they are. It's how we know them to be. Right. To me, it's a little different when you're talking about a 16 year old girl to be so cold.

It just comes off a little differently for me, I guess, as I'm thinking about it. And why can't, why not just run away? Well, the only thing that comes to mind is, okay, she's not going to stop trying to find me. Yeah. And she's going to call the police and say that my 18 year old boyfriend has kidnapped me and maybe there's some things there. Right. But it's still better than the police looking for you as a murder suspect eventually. Well, I'm sure they thought they were smart enough, right, as many killers do. I'll get away with this. You know, we've made a plan.

We're smart enough. The police will pin it on someone. I know when I was a teenager, I often thought I was smarter than I really was. Yeah, yeah. I think you still do, to be honest with you. Wow. You know, when I was a teenager, I thought I was freaking Albert Einstein. I thought it was smarter than everyone.

Now, looking back on it, I was a dumb ass. But I was going to say that. I didn't think of it that way at the time. It was Chris McGowan who found Gene's body that evening. after work he went home to eat dinner to play games with the family i'm sure as he probably did most nights but when he entered the home that night he found jean face down in the foyer and there was so much blood gibbs that first responders couldn't tell how jean had died so we said 40 stab wounds but her body was so bloody they couldn't even tell the kitchen and living room were covered in blood

when Jean was examined, they saw that she had a fractured skull. But eventually the number of stab wounds was put at 57. That's such a huge number. It's a lot of stabbing. And it probably goes back to the comment that he used three different knives. So like in a lot of cases, Chris McGowan was the first suspect. He was the significant other. He lived in the home.

he found Jean. He went to the police station to answer questions. He told officers that he was covered in blood because he grabbed Gene when he found her. He said that he thought she had fallen down the stairs, but then he realized she was dead and he called 911. And this is something that comes up in a lot of cases, especially involving husband, wife, significant others. If you found someone that you loved and they were lying in a pool of blood, would you not rush over and do whatever you could do to try to figure out what was going on if there was some way that you could help them?

Absolutely. Yeah. I think most people would. And if you couldn't help them, if it's somebody you knew, you probably still cradle them and hold on to them as a last effort to say goodbye. Yeah.

I think that's a great example as well. Now, the true crime aficionado in us, the CSI in us would say, don't disturb the crime scene. Right. But we don't think that way. Motions will overtake. Not right. It's too emotional. This is my wife.

This is my boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is. You just want to get to them and hold them. The detectives believe that Chris was telling the truth. They asked him, who might? have wanted to hurt Jean. Chris said he didn't know. He did express concern for Charlie and Nicole's safety. Charlie was spending the night at a friend's house, but no one knew where Nicole was. Then he told the officers about Nicole's relationship with Billy and the fact that Nicole and her mom had had numerous fights about Billy. He told them that on August 4th, Nicole announced that she was going to finish

out high school in Connecticut and live with Billy's family. He told them about the emancipation letter and that Jean had said that Nicole could no longer see Billy. Well, if I was the police, the investigators, I would want to at least have a little conversation with Billy. Yeah, I mean, I think at the very least you're seeing some motive. Sure. Possible motive there. Billy and Nicole returned to the house at 7.40 p.m. When they got there, they told the police that they had been at the mall and they attended the 6 p.m. showing of Pirates of the Caribbean. Nicole said she even called her mom to say that she was on her way home.

But Gene didn't answer. So she left a message for Chris. Nicole asked police what was going on, where her mom was. Obviously, they had to break the news to her. Right. But they also took both of them, Nicole and Billy, to the police station for questioning. And they had separate interviews. And one thing that was reported in a lot of different articles, Gibbs was that when police did tell Nicole that her mother was dead,

she seemed more concerned about how Billy was doing than the fact that her mother was dead. It's going to raise some eyebrows. Yeah. Yeah. And it often does, right, how people act when they hear certain types of news. Well, let's face it. There is a way that we all kind of think someone is going to act when they're told that their mother or their father or another loved one is dead, has been killed. Police weren't seeing it. Her only concern was what's going on with? Billy. It's going to be a red flag. Nicole told the police that she and Billy went to Walmart,

Dunkin' Donuts, a bowling alley, the mall, and to the movies. And she had receipts from each location. Very convenient. I think that's a good word, convenient. Now, a lot of people might keep their receipts. I've never been that kind of person. You know, if I go through a McDonald's, I'm not filing that receipt away for my CPA. I don't need it. Right. So it's going in the bag. You know, I'm not putting together a dossier of receipts to bring home to my wife to prove where I was all day.

Yeah. I just remember anytime I gave my kids money to go out and do something, I was lucky to get any change back, let alone receipts. Right. Let alone the receipt to show how much they actually spent. Right. Billy gave the same version of events, but he seemed very nervous and, fidgety during the interview.

Apparently there was one key difference in their stories. Nicole said they went to the movies, but Billy in his interview said they skipped the movie. So you know that's something the police are going to zero in all. Sure. Yeah. And consistency. So they went back.

They pressed Nicole for answers. The second time around, she told a different story. She said that earlier that day, she and her mother got into an argument over, her request for emancipation. She told police that Gene hit her repeatedly. Billy intervened.

Her mom grabbed a knife and went after Billy. Billy grabbed a bat to defend himself and accidentally killed Gene. And Gibbs, this is kind of part of a lot of the true crime stories that I really find fascinating. Once people are at the point where they're being interviewed by police. Right. And they give one story. And police don't like that story or they find a hole in that story. All right.

We're switching gears. We're on to a different story. How do you like this one? Does this one sound better to you? Yeah, I always find it fascinating how people feel as though that is going to work. Now, this is a 16 year old girl. Let's not forget that. But the stories are always so drastically changed too sometimes.

You're like, yeah, we were just out at Dunkin' Donuts in the movies. Yeah. Now, Billy is in a fight for his life and has to defend himself and accidentally kills my mom. How do you accidentally get those stories mixed up? It's not something that you forgot about when you walked into the station. But I think Billy was doing even worse. You know, as the hours passed, he grew very agitated. At one point, he punched a table.

He vomited into a trash can. The detectives were clearly seeing that, you know, something. wasn't right with him. They asked him what was wrong. He said that he had a lot on his conscience. And then he finally admitted to killing Gene. But he said it wasn't self-defense. He told police that he and Nicole planned out the murder. He told them that on the sixth, he and Nicole told Gene they were going out for the day. Billy said he grabbed a baseball bat from Charlie's room and put it by the front door. then he and Nicole drove around town, stopping at all these different stores to get receipts for their alibis. At 6.30 p.m. they parked at the 7.11. Billy ran across the street to the house to kill

Gene. He said he knocked on the front door and Gene let him in. He told the show killer couples that I didn't really believe I was going to do it. When I walked in those doors, I didn't really really think it was going to happen. He said he tried one last time to convince Gene to allow Nicole to move out. But when she refused, that was probably what pushed him over. Yeah, that's when he got angry. He grabbed the baseball bat. He said he thought the first hit would kill her like he had seen in the movies. But instead, Gene just got mad and asked him what the hell he was doing. You know, that's really when it turned into a fight. You know,

and that's something that comes up a lot. Real life versus the movies. Yeah. You know, in the movies, sometimes they show someone strangling a person and it happens so quickly. Right.

It's over within seconds. Seconds. But you hear from the mouths of stranglers that the first time they did it, they were shocked. Number one, how long it took. And number two, how much force it actually took to strangle someone. Yeah.

It looks so much easier on TV. I know you've seen some gun fights, some shooting on TV, and you know when you see that, it's not how it actually happens. It's not how you shoot those guns. It's not how you reload those guns. Oh, yeah. Nothing in the movies is usually all that correct. Yeah.

Number one, in the movies, guns never recoil the way they, do in real life. Yeah. People are just keep shooting and, and the gun just stays straight, you know, that's not how, it's not how it works.

William confessed to hitting Gene with the bat and stabbing her. He said that once he started, there was just no stopping. He told killer couples, she turned her back and it happened in a split second. We got into a fight. Then I figured, you know,

I already started, might as well finish. Gibbs, that's cold as shit. It was really cold to say that, you know? Hey, I'm this far in. Yeah. I might as well finish her off is basically what he is saying.

Why go to jail for assault when I can go all the way, man? He said the best way I can describe it is one of those old TVs. And you're looking at it and it's fuzzy. And you know what you're watching, but it's not like you're doing it. During his interview, William said that killing Jean started off as a joke. between he and Nicole, but it became a fantasy over time when he realized, as he put it, that it would really work. It would accomplish everything they needed to happen. He said, it's like a fantasy. We'd plan it, but we would never do it. I am honestly, in my opinion, the most harmless

person in the world. This is what this kid is saying after he beat. He beat, a mother with a baseball bat and stabbed her to death 57 times. So really he thinks he's the most harmless person in the world after what he just did. You should let him watch your children. He is harmless. So Billy has confessed. He's told everything. Police went back to Nicole and they told her that Billy confessed.

She started crying and then she eventually told the truth. Billy was charged with first degree murder on August 7, 2003. Nicole was charged separately in juvenile court and ordered to stand trial as an adult. William gave up his right to a preliminary hearing on August 19, 2003. On August 23rd of that year, the DA's office received word that William would not plead guilty. His attorneys were going for an insanity plea. They presented evidence that he witnessed domestic violence, experienced sexual abuse, needed medication for psychological issues and lived in residential psychiatric hospitals

by the age of nine. And we did talk about it. We did. He had a very messed up childhood. Now, I don't know how much of the messed up childhood had to do with some of the things that he developed. My thought is probably quite a bit. I'm sure.

And you have to remember, according to him, he stopped taking his medication. because he wanted to fill the emotions that he had with Nicole. And I don't think there's any doubt that the stopping of the medication probably played a huge role in what ultimately happened. The prosecution asked Nicole to testify against Billy in exchange for a lesser sentence, but she refused. She was in love. And I even think it was more than that. We've all been in love. probably most of us many, many times.

This was more than that. Obsession. Yeah, this was, you know, being so intertwined, obsessed with each other. Then in 2005, prosecutors learned that Billy was in a relationship with a 15-year-old girl named Monique Teal. Monique lied about her age so that she could visit him in prison. So I guess they were pen pals. Billy also called her from prison and Gibbs this relationship was exactly like the one that he had with Nicole. Billy said he loved Monique. He was obsessed with her. He wanted her to convince Nicole not to testify against him.

But Nicole found out that this boy that she thought was her everything, her soulmate was seeing someone else. and you know that had to have been devastating for her. Yeah, when he's asking Monique to reach out to Nicole, to convince her not to, what was he thinking, that they weren't going to talk? They weren't going to talk about how Monique met him. Who are you?

Yeah, why are you talking to my boyfriend? Yeah. And what's your relationship with Billy? Yeah. Oh, he loves you too, hey. Hey? Did you say hey? Is that like an Ohio version of A?

I guess. Well, it was right after that. that she reached out to prosecutors and took their deal. So not real smart on Billy's part because, you know, for years, she had remained very loyal to him. She was not going to turn on him because he was her soulmate. Yeah, she had Billy blinders on. Exactly.

But then I think her eyes were opened after this revelation of the new girlfriend. Nicole Kaczynskis pleaded guilty to second degree. murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder on March 28, 2005, in exchange for testifying against Billy at his trial. His trial started on June 21st, 2005, and Gibbs, the prosecution had some really good evidence against Billy. Well, he did confess. Yeah, he confessed.

They also had his bloody fingerprints in the house, his bloody clothing, and on top of that, Nicole's testimony. You would think that be more than enough. Yeah, that's my way of thinking. Chris McGowan testified on June 22nd about finding Gene's body. He said, I knelt down next to Jean. She was on her side and I brushed her hair away from the side of her face. That's when I saw that her eyes were wide open.

What a horrific memory to have to hold on to. Oh, you're never forgetting that. Nicole testified on June 29th. She said that she reluctantly went in the house to get a cloth for William to wipe off the blood. She didn't want to it first, but eventually she agreed to do it. She had trouble getting into the kitchen because her mom's body was blocking the door. She literally Gibbs had to push her mother's body with the door to get inside. Sickening.

She said, I didn't know what to do. I said to myself, what's going on? What am I doing? why do I have to do this? There was blood everywhere. I totally lost track of what I was supposed to do for a second. To get to the bathroom, I had to step over her. So I did.

Pretty cold. She said that she got the towel. She picked up a knife blade and dropped it in the sewer. She also said that Billy was fidgety and he got angry when she became emotional. He told her, I know you just saw the worst thing. in the world, but I just did the worst thing in the world. Nicole told jurors that she bought Billy some clean clothes and threw more evidence into a

wooded area of a golf course in a different town. She then placed the call and left a message for Chris McGowan, basically in her words, Gibbs, just to see if he knew what had happened. Then she went with William to one of her mother's friends' houses to say goodbye. she said eventually they returned to the house that evening. The police questioned her and she couldn't remember her alibi. A detective told her that they found blood in Billy's car. So Nicole said she told a different story because she thought it would make the crime look less planned.

Well, now we know why their stories didn't matter. Of all the things that you should not forget, it's probably your alibi. And it was that one little detail, right? Did we go to the movie or did we not go to the movie? Now, would they have nabbed these two eventually? Yeah, probably. But I think that allowed detectives to really hone in on them much, much quicker and probably break them, much quicker.

Nicole described her intense, obsessive relationship with Billy. She testified about how they tried to kill Gene three times before the murder. According to her, William was the one who came up with all the plans for murder. His final plan was to beat Gene to death and make it look as though someone broke into the house. So she's putting all that on him.

Yeah, she's putting everything on him. And she also said that she felt as though she had to go along with his plans because Billy was threatening to kill himself. He said he couldn't handle driving home and that if he had to, he wanted to drive. drive into an 18-wheeler. Billy's defense attorney questioned Nicole about her inconsistent statements. At one point, she said she had never seen Billy take medication. Then she said she saw him take medication once. At one point, she said that she poisoned her mother's coffee creamer. Then she said, Billy did it. His defense attorney also criticized her for saying that she got along with her mother until

she started dating Billy. I think as you just said, Gibbs, the defense attorney was pointing out that she was trying to shift every bit, 100% of the blame onto him. Yeah. It's all Billy's fault. I was manipulated. She responded by saying, I wouldn't say it's his fault. It's his influence. Billy's attorneys did go after an insanity defense. They argued that Nicole used his mental state, and obsession to convince him to kill Jean for her. They submitted a letter from Nicole where she wrote that she would kill to be with him. But there was one large obstacle in the way. And, you know, I think Gibbs, the defense was doing pretty good, right?

And trying to present some of this evidence. A lot of it was probably working in their favor until the prosecution called Monique Teal. Monique testified that her parents forced her to end her relationship with Billy. When she told Billy that her parents didn't approve of him, he said that he could, quote, take care of it, implying that he could have her mother killed. Well, that's not going to go over well. It doesn't really fit into the narrative that your defense team is trying to present. Right.

The case went to the jury on July 14th, 2005. On the 15th, Billy Sullivan was found guilty of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder. At the age of 20, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. On September 8th, Nicole was sentenced to 40 years in prison. She did have two and a half years removed from her sentence after she completed her GED. This was part of her plea agreement. Another part was that they would reduce it by another two and a half years if she completed an advanced degree. But I never did figure out whether or not she did that yet. I know she got her GED, but I don't know if she ever completed the advanced degree.

Probably worth it to get out two and a half years early. Sure, she's got plenty of time to work on that. She does. Yeah, she's got quite a bit of time. But the judge said that. that Nicole was, quote, every bit as culpable as William Sullivan. Yeah, I mean, she knew what was happening. She was aware. She participated in the planning of it. Yeah, she didn't carry it out. But everything before that, I think she was right in it.

I don't think there's much doubt about that. And she certainly didn't do anything to stop the murder from happening. No, no, not at all. at the sentencing, Chris McGowan told Nicole that he couldn't even think about how, you know, she was at the 7-Eleven knowing that her mother was being murdered. He also talked about a phone conversation between Nicole and Gene. He said one of the last things Gene ever said was Nicole come home. And he said that he had flowers scheduled to be delivered to. Gene on August 14th in celebration of their third anniversary.

But apparently the florist messed up and sent the flowers on August 5th. And Chris said that he was happy that Jean was able to see her flowers before she died. This was a woman who was very beloved. You know, local school put up a bench. They planted a tree in her honor. The city named a ball field after her. Chris told Nicole, she loved you, Nicole. Cole. She was very proud of you and she knew that moving to Connecticut was not in your best interest.

And Gibbs, I can't imagine many parents would think it would be in their 16 year old daughter's best interest to move to Connecticut to finish out high school and live with this boy that, you know, she's known for a while, but not on a level to move in with them. No. In another state. In another state with another family. According to BBM lawyers, Amy Beth Kaczynskis, Nicole's sister said, every teenager has the right to make bad choices, but this wasn't astronomically bad choice. If I had been a better big sister, if I had been a better advisor to you, that you would have made a better decision. Very tough. You know, for a sister, a step sister to think if I had just done this.

Right. Could I have done more? Right. And I think that's very common, right, for members of a family. Sure. In this situation to think, what could I have done? That would have changed this, that would have stopped this and before it got to the point it did. Was there a point that I could have recognized and made a difference? Nicole chose not to speak at her sentencing hearing. Her lawyer said after the hearing, I don't think there was anything she could say to help the situation. She feels a tremendous amount of regret and remorse. I think she was trying not to inflame the situation anymore. I mean, what was she going to say other than I shouldn't have done what I did?

I regret it. I'm sorry. And you did do what you did. Yeah. You know, you did play the part that you played. You didn't regret it until you got caught. That's absolutely true. Yeah.

As is with most people, I believe. I do think there are people that kill that regret it. Yeah. But I think by and large, most killers don't really regret it. They regret the fact that they get caught. Right. Yeah. On September 11th, 2006, William Sullivan requested a retrial.

He argued that his former lawyers, Paul Garrity, and Rick Montief heard his chances in court by refusing to allow him to testify. He said they also withheld favorable evidence and arguments. He won his request for a new lawyer, but the state Supreme Court put his appeal on hold while he requested a retrial. The state Supreme Court overturned the conviction in 2008. They found that the trial judge erred by replacing a juror during delinquency. deliberations and not doing enough to make sure that the jury would start deliberations from scratch.

On June 4th, 2009, William was convicted of first degree murder for a second time. So I understand why the Supreme Court ruled the way they did. Yeah, I think we see this more and more, right? The trial judge did something that they shouldn't have done. Okay. We're going to have a retrial. but most often it results in the same outcome as it did here. On June 10th, 2020, Nicole lost her bid to commute her prison sentence.

By that point, she had served 15 years, less than half of her prison term. The union leader reported that counselor Deborah Pignatelli said she has acquitted herself well while in prison and I commend her for that. I can also see a time when I might consider a commutation for her sentence, but for me, that time is not right now. Nicole will be able to apply for further reduction in 2013 after serving two-thirds of her sentence. Just 10 years away. Yeah, at which point she'll have done what, about 26 years in prison?

Yeah. Okay. If they let her out at that point, would I be raving, mad about it? Probably not. I mean, you're talking about a 16-year-old who obviously did something horribly wrong. Right. Is 26 years fair? You could make the argument that it is. If she had done this in Canada, she'd already be out. For sure. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just, you know, in my head, I try to grapple with what I feel is fair. Yeah.

It doesn't mean you'll feel it's fair. It doesn't mean that everyone in the audience will agree with me. I don't expect that at all. No, no. It's just, you know, when we hear about a rapist getting out after a year, that's not fair. That's not just. Right. And that makes us upset.

So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, you know, we've seen it before, but it still baffles me. how, you know, two people can become so obsessed with each other that they allow it to basically overshadow everything else, including, you know, in this case, Nicole's love for her mother. And she started to view her mother as an obstacle. You know, she went from being her best friend to basically someone who was in the way of her happiness. Yeah, a roadblock. A roadblock.

And she thought that the only way that she could be happy was to be with Billy. And the only way to be with Billy was that her mother had to die. And he felt the same way. Yeah. There was just two immature kids, man. Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously there is some immaturity that plays into it. There's some very irrational thinking, obsession.

There's all kinds of different things. that kind of came together, but what resulted was, you know, a disaster, a tragedy. Yeah. And the decisions that they made were irreversible. Yeah, there's no reversing death. But that's it for our case on William Sullivan and Nicole Kaczynskis. Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

Yeah, Sarah. Hey, Mike and Gibby, it's Logan Clayton again from Victoria, BC, Canada. I called you guys probably about three months ago about a case we looked into, Kimberly Proctor. But there's another case, another solved case as well that I would really like you guys to look into. And it is a man from Oak Bay, which is on Vancouver Island, named Andrew Barry, who stabbed his 4-year-old and 6-year-old to death Christmas morning. And there's some newer stuff for this trial that's just come out, or not his trial, I guess, like his appeals and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's a very disturbing case, so I don't know if you guys want to do it. But it's always nice to see cases, especially from Canada.

I love here in Canadian cases. But, yeah, stay safe. Keep your own time taken. I'm team Mike and Gibby because I love you all so much. And you guys, thank you all so much. Have a great holiday season. Thanks. Well, thank you, man.

We love you too. We appreciate the voicemail. We do. I got to be honest, that's not a case I'm very familiar with. I'm going to have to look into it. It sounds like something we may want to do. It's going to be a rough one. Very rough, I think.

No doubt about it. Hey, Mike. Hey, Gibby. I just watched a voicemail, and I kind of messed up because I didn't tell you guys who I am. My name is Marissa, and I live in Alabama. I'm a Patreon member, and I've listened to just about all of the T-Chat and T-Cat Unsolved episodes. And I wanted to give you guys a call because I listened to the Jose Mesquia episode, or Hesus, not Jose, sorry. And the band that Gibby was trying to think of is The Runaways.

that was the first band that Joan Jett was in, and she was about 16, 17 years old, and Lita Ford was in the band. I think she was either the drummer or a guitarist, and the other person that I think was trying to think of is Sheree Curry. She's the one who sings Cherry Bomb, and she was also in the runaways. So, yeah, just wanted to give you guys a call and let you know that that's who that was, and I'll try to thank you guys, because this is a really hard time of year for me, and my family.

My brother died in a car accident. six years ago tomorrow. So you guys are just kind of keeping me company and keeping my mind off of that. So I really appreciate you guys. And thank you for everything that you do. And I hope you guys have a great day and a great holiday. And lastly, be safe and keep your own time ticking. Bye.

Well, thank you very much for the voicemail. Obviously, Gibbs our thoughts go out to her and her family. Absolutely. It's a tough time. Yeah. But we also appreciate the information. Yeah. And it's surprising how close you were. I mean, you were on the right track. And I had no idea. I couldn't even help you. I just really had no information about that band and didn't remember them. I think they might have been for my time. I'm always on the right track. You're on the right track. You just never, you know, centered. You're kind of going off the track sometimes. You jump back on. You just can't box me in, man. I try not to. Hey, Mike, it's Jacob Irvin from Iowa.

And recently we've had a really interesting case happen where these two high school, two 16-year-olds killed their Spanish teacher who was like, I want to say 56. And they haven't really found a motive yet, but it was just strange because it didn't happen that far away from me. And so I thought that'd be an interesting case to look into. And if you need more information or stuff like that, I can help search stuff up too. So, well, I love the podcast, guys, and keep your own time ticking. All right. We'll definitely look into that one as well. Bad stuff happening.

It continues to happen. It will always happen. Human nature. Human nature. Unfortunately, that's the case. It also means that there's never really going to be a shortage of stories to talk about. Yeah. In the true crime world because it's like history.

History is happening every day. It is. And so is true crime. We got some mailbag Gibbs. Robbie and Felicia invited us to their wedding down in South Padre Island. All right. I'm on my way. Okay.

Pack your bags. Yeah. I think it's in February. Okay. Well, it's going to be a lot warmer there than it is here. No doubt about that. James Ingram sent us in a poker chip from Nova Scotia. Awesome.

Very cool. And Christina Jarvis sent us a very heartfelt letter of appreciation. It was touching. it was moving. Teared up a little bit. Yeah, I really appreciated it. Yeah, absolutely. We certainly did.

All right. That is it, buddy, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.