True Crime All The Time - Winston Moseley

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

On March 13th, 1964, Winston Moseley attacked Kitty Genovese, a young woman heading back to her apartment in the early morning hours. He stabbed her and left her there to die. Winston then returned to rape her and deliver the fatal wounds that would kill Kitty. Kitty Genovese is one of New York City’s most well-known murder victims. Psychologists have cited her case for decades as an example of the bystander effect. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Winston Moseley. Most people are probably not as familiar with his name as they are with the name of Kitty Genovese. But, Moseley killed others and committed many other crimes. The New York Times reported that 38 eyewitnesses watched Winston murder Kitty and did nothing to help. Although there were a few witnesses, this staggering number is false. Today we’ll discuss who Winston was, why he attacked Kitty, his other crimes, and the truth about who witnessed her murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 243 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. How are you, man? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah.

We've got a couple of really good episodes on Tap this weekend. We've got some new merch. We do. On the website. Some cool stuff. Yeah. Really cool stuff. I'm excited about stainless steel straws, which my girls suggested.

and these challenge coins that are really cool. You've got the T-Cat logo on one side and you have the Unsolved logo on the other. Yeah. And it comes with a little stand. I like it. Super cool. Check that out. Let's give our Patreon shoutouts.

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We had some great PayPal donations as well from Beard Bear Club. Yeah, thank you, Beard Bear Club. Cheryl Bullock. Hey, Cheryl. who I met at CrimeCon. You did. Christina Winn. Hey, Christina.

Liberty Simlinger. I like that. Name Liberty. And Judy Larson. Thank you, Judy. So thanks to everyone who supports the show. Speaking of Patreon, we had a merch winner for June. That was our good friend, Mary Beth Long.

Yeah. So congrats to her. And our Patreon-only episode is going to come out next week. Yep. Next Saturday night, a brand-new Patreon-only episode. it'll be number, I think, 37? Yeah, there's done 37 episodes. And a lot of those on video, because we started doing that at a certain point, video and audio.

So if you want to see some funny stuff, jump on Patreon. Look at me and Mike on video. Check it out. Gibbs right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about the 1973 murder of Bronwyn Richardson. And we're headed back down to Australia, New South. Wales to be exact. It's an interesting case. We have a young victim that gets abducted, murdered, and we're going to follow the trail and talk about some suspects and some interesting

tie-ins. Yeah, so definitely check that out. All right, Gibby, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Man, I'm excited. So we're talking about a pretty famous case, but a lot of people may not be that familiar with the name Winston Mosley. Now, they will be familiar with one of Mosley's victims. On March 13th, 1964, Winston Mosley attacked Kitty Genevese, a young woman heading back to her apartment in the early morning hours. He stabbed her and left her there to die. But he wasn't done. Winston then returned to rape her and deliver the fatal wounds that ultimately killed

Kitty. Kitty Genovese is one of New York City's most famous murder victims. Her case has been cited by psychologists for decades as an example of what is known as the bystander effect. The New York Times reported that 38 eyewitnesses watched Winston murder Kitty and did nothing to help. Now, this turned out not to be true. There were a few witnesses, but the staggering, the staggering number reported by the New York Times is false. So in this episode, we'll discuss who Winston was, why he attacked Kitty, his other crimes, because this was a bad guy all around, and the truth about who witnessed her murder. Now, we don't know a ton about Winston Mosley's life. He was born March 2nd, 1935.

His mother was Fannie Mosley. Alphonse Mosley. Alphonse Mosley was not Winston's biological father. But Winston didn't find out about this until he was almost a teenager. Now, what I will say is that it was evident from the reporting that this news, this finding out that the man who Winston thought was his father wasn't really his father, was devastating to him. Oh, I think that'd be devastating for most people. Yeah, unless you didn't really like your father at all and then maybe not as devastating.

That's true. But I think, you know, in general, you're absolutely correct. I think for some people to find out late in life that they were adopted can be very tough. Well, I think that can be traumatizing for some. Yeah. On some individuals. Growing up, Winston was described as soft spoken and intelligent. According to the New York Times, he had a troubled child.

But they really didn't go into any specific behaviors or crimes. As an adult, Winston was married and had three children. In 1961, he married Elizabeth Grant, his second wife. Elizabeth worked the night shift as a nurse. Winston's mother took care of the children while she worked. And it really was this arrangement that allowed Winston to prowl around it night. So, you know, you think about that, Gibbs. His wife is working second shift. Obviously, if he has the time to prowl around at night, he has the time to watch his own kids. But that's not what

happened. He got his mother to watch the kids, which in turn allowed him his free time to do bad thing. Yeah. Instead of being home, spending time with his kids. Yeah, exactly. So Winston had a bit of a secret life. He worked as a business machine operator in New York City during the day. You know, this was a guy who had no criminal record, but he committed a number of crimes. He just never got caught. So to his wife and children, you know, he was this normal, loving father. But, you know, there was a side to him. And the New York Times called him a psychopathic serial killer and necrophiliaic. Wow. That's a that's a whole lot different than what his family thought he was. Yeah. And you and I talk about that quite a bit, right? You've got killers who essentially are leading double lives, many of them married with children. And so I don't know how they do it, but they compartmentalize, right? They've got the side of themselves that deals with the family and the neighbors. and all that, right? I cut my grass. I go to my kids baseball games, Little League. I'm the all-around

dad. Yeah. But there's this different side where I'm out prowling the city at night and I'm targeting victims and all of that. How do they keep it separate? I mean, I don't, I don't know how they do that. I mean, it's a real Superman type Clark Kent. Sure. Deal. We've done other. We've done other episodes where we had similar situations. Yeah, we absolutely have. And then we've had episodes where killers were loners. Yes. And they couldn't or didn't want to, either one, have the relationship and the children and all that stuff. They were, I think what most people think of maybe when they think of serial killer. They think of the loner. They think of the guy down in his basement writing names on a list.

Yeah. But we know killers come in all forms. It's just hard to understand how someone can be so warm and compassionate to certain individuals. And then completely devoid of emotion when it comes to others. Yeah. It really is. Catherine Susan Genevese was born in Brooklyn on July 7, 1935. Her family always called her kitty.

She was the oldest of five children. children. Her parents were Vincent and Rachel Genevite. Kitty grew up in a working class neighborhood. Her father ran a supply company and her mother stayed at home with the children. It's a name you don't hear a lot of. Kitty? No. There's hello kitty. There is. I know one kitty, but that's it. Okay. But he's not a name you hear a lot of. No. No, it's not. And it actually wasn't her name either. It's just what they called her. Yeah. I think the Catharines, the Kathy's. You can somehow get to the nickname, Kitty from that. But a person whose birth certificate given name is Kitty, I don't know anybody. I'm sure there are people out there listening right now.

Yeah. Named Kitty, but no one that I know. Kitty was known for being energetic and people said that she just had a zest for life. She was talkative and she loved hanging out with her friends at school. Kitty graduated from Prospects high school in 1953. She was a good student. And she won the class cut up superlative her senior year. Really? That's kind of cool. Yeah.

Seems like something you would win. Class clown. They called it class clown, I think, by the time you and I were in school. Yeah. Hey, any award is a good award. Is it? Most likely to fail. That is not a good award.

You made the list. Not for something. good. You got in the yearbook. Most likely to be a serial killer. Nobody wants that one. That's true. Well, there's a few people that wanted it, but probably didn't want people to know they wanted it. Right. You want to keep that a secret. Yeah. After Kitty graduated from high school, her mother witnessed a murder on the streets of Brooklyn. So the family moved to Connecticut to what they felt was a safer area to live in. But Kitty stayed behind in New York City, much to her parents' disappointment. She initially worked as a secretary at an insurance company, but she got a second job, working nights as a bartender at a bar called the 11th hour.

So no doubt Gibbs, she was a very hardworking person, right? Secretary by day, bartender by night. And this hard work definitely paid off because she was promoted to a management position at the bar, so she quit her secretary job, and she moved to Queens to be closer to work. On March 13, 1963, Kitty met her girlfriend, Marianne Zolonko, at a place called Swing Rendezoo. This was an underground lesbian bar in Greenwich. They quickly fell in love and moved in together at an apartment in Cue Gardens, Queens. But this was early 60s, Gibbs.

Oh yeah, you'd be really careful. Yeah, Kitty and Ann had to tell others that they were just roommate. Because at that time, the LGBTQ plus community was not widely accepted. And in fact, they didn't even call it the LGBTQ plus community back then. But Kitty and Ann were very happy together. And they lived in a neighborhood known for being a safe place for women. By 1964, Kitty was 28 years. old and she was a very successful young woman. She often worked double shifts at the bar in order to

make more money. She earned about $750 a month, which in 1964 was quite a bit of money. What do you think that equates to today? Yeah, you know, $4,500, $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think you're probably in the right ballpark, but, you know, it's a good living, right? Today, 60 grand. Kitty was, you know, was saving up to open her own Italian restaurant one day. So, you know, I think when you talk about Kitty Genovese, you're talking about a person who was very independent. And according to her father, she often said, no man could support me because I make more than a man.

Yeah. So you got to like that zeal, right? You got to like that kind of, I don't need X because. I'm going to make it on my own. Exactly. I respect people like that. Sure. In the early morning hours of March 13th,

1964, Kitty Genovese was coming home from work. It was her first anniversary with Ann. She was excited to get home so that they could celebrate together. Kitty parked her car at a nearby rail station and walked to her apartment. The distance from the parking lot to the entrance of her apartment building,

was about 100 feet. And the entrance was at the rear of the building. As she was walking, Kitty spotted a man at the far end of the parking lot. And I think she got nervous. And she started probably speeding up heading to her apartment. This was early in the morning. The street was completely empty. All the stores were closed. And frankly, most of the neighbors were sleeping. as Kitty walked down the street, at some point she heard footsteps behind her. Then at 3.20 a.m. Winston Mosley approached her with a knife. And Kitty ran. She ran towards her apartment building, but Winston grabbed her and stabbed her. And reportedly, Kitty screamed very loudly, oh God, I've been stabbed. So that whole scenario that you just covered, I think is

a nightmare for everybody. That's the thing that you visualize when you're out walking late in the evening or early in the morning. Early in the morning, right? That's a fear that everybody has is that there's nobody around

but could somebody be up here or around here or what's that? You know, you get that hair on the back of your neck standing up, you get a little scared and you hear a footstep or you think you hear a footstep and now you're really getting nervous. Well, in this case,

actually saw someone. Yeah. So there's no one around to help, right? If this person, this man that she sees decides to do something bad. And I think that's why you have the picking up of the pace. I got to get to my apartment, you know, but you're right. It's a scary situation. And it's such a scary situation that they use it a lot in movies. Oh, sure. Nobody around. A female is walking down the street in the movie you see a shadow or you hear the footsteps behind yeah and that causes fear sure it does causes fear in the audience because they know something bad is about to happen the new york times reported that a neighbor named robert mozer opened his window and yelled let that girl alone and this seemed to scare the man off he ran away and then

Robert closed his window. According to his testimony later, he said he heard a girl saying, help me, help me. He said it wasn't a scream. It was more of a cry. I got up and looked out and across the street, a girl was kneeling down and the fellow was bending over her. I hollered at him, hey, get out of there. What are you doing? He jumped up and ran like a scared rabbit. She got up and walked out of sight around a corner. This guy probably thought he was a hero, yelling out his window, scaring the guy off. And she was able to get up and get to safety. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if he thought he was a hero, but at least he thought he probably did what he needed to do to stop the situation. The problem was that Kitty was severely injured from her stab wounds. She crawled to the apartment entrance at the rear of the building. But it would have been very difficult. for anyone to see her at that point. A hundred yards away, Winston Mosley sat in his car.

And Gibbs, he thought the police were going to come, right? He'd been seen attacking a woman. He thought, okay, it's just a matter of time until police show up

and I need to be ready to make a quick getaway. But they never did. So he waited because he ultimately wanted to finish what he said. started. And it was about 10 minutes later that Winston returned and found Kitty. He later told the police, I had a feeling that the man would close his window and go back to sleep. And sure enough,

he did. I realized that my car was parked where people could see it and they could see me. So I moved it some distance away. I came back because I had not finished what I set out to do. All right, that's scary. This guy goes from thinking, my plans have been foiled, the police are on their way to, I'm going to go back and finish what I started because nobody seems to be coming at all. Yeah. Well, he's thinking, I still have a chance. Yeah, and unfortunately, he did.

When Winston found Kitty, she was twisting and turning and calling out for help. He stabbed her again, raped her. and stole $49 from her wallet. But Kitty was somehow still alive. She was lying at the bottom of the stairs, just inside the apartment building entrance. A few minutes later, Kitty's neighbor and friend,

Sophia Farrar, found her and screamed for someone to call the police. At 3.50 a.m., a neighbor Carl Ross called the police. So let's put it into perspective, right? We said it was around 3.20 a.m. when Winston approached Kitty with the knife, 30 minutes has elapsed. She's been stabbed a number of times. She's been raped. And now the police are being called.

Now, it didn't take long for police and EMS to show up. They arrived in just a few minutes, but they were too late. In total, the attack lasted just about 30 minutes. Kitty received 13 stab wounds. Brue. Yeah, brutal. And the medical examiner determined that she might have lived if the ambulance had arrived sooner. She lost too much blood. Well, and I think it didn't take long for the ambulance to get there.

But if you think about it, we're really talking about two separate but connected incidents. Right. There's the first attack. And obviously if the ambulance would have, if somebody would have called and somebody and the ambulance would have shown up after that, they most likely would have saved her life. Yes. So police began to investigate. And at 7 a.m.

Detective Mitchell sang came to question Ann. And at the time, she and a neighbor were drinking together inside her apartment. For some reason, this detective arrested the. neighbor Carl Ross for disorderly conduct. I couldn't find really any details around it. But that went over really well. Yeah, we haven't found the killer, but you're out of control. Yeah. And I'm taking you in for disorderly conduct. But thanks for calling the police and getting us out here. Yeah, this was the man who called police. Now, was he belligerent? Was he drunk? Was he upset that things happened the way they did? And he was taking it out of it.

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See rules. Banking services provided by MBB Bank Incorporated. Member FDIC. Maximum balance and transfer limits apply. Two detectives interrogated Ann about her relationship with Kitty for six hours. Okay. That's a long interrogation. but it's really the content of the interrogation.

They were asking her a lot of inappropriate questions. They asked her about her sex life with Kitty. You know, it sounded as though most of the questions were not about Kitty. They were not about her murder or who would have wanted to hurt her. They were more about her gay lifestyle. Yeah. These detectors just wanted to know more. more about that instead of focusing on what was important, who did this and where are they at?

Yeah, I get it. Detectives need to ascertain certain information, right? That's going to help lead them to potential suspects. But is it necessary to spend six hours talking about the relationship between these two women and more importantly, what their sex life was like? No. Because really, I think instead of using that time to try to catch the killer, who had already been identified as a male. Right.

So you're not trying to interview Ann to say she didn't have anything to do with the murder. It wasn't her. Right. You're not trying to figure out if she murdered Kitty. We know she didn't murder Kitty. They wasted time asking Anne harassing and inappropriate questions about her relationship with Kitty. A Connecticut policeman. went to the Genovese's door early that morning to tell the family what happened.

Kitty's father was too devastated to identify her body. So he sent his brother. All of the children had to go live with relatives and friends for a few weeks because their parents gives, they were just unable to care for them. And I get that, right? You're talking about a parent's grief. Just think about how hard that had to be. I mean, here's your daughter stabbed over a dozen times.

You find out she was sexually assaulted. And it just breaks your heart. Yeah, tough enough to find that out. But then to try to take care of the rest of your children when you're heartbroken, okay, do people do it? I'm sure they do. Yeah. But if you have friends and relatives that are willing to help out, I can see where maybe

that's the best route for a short period of time. You definitely can't be in the right state of mind at that moment. No, no way. Initially, Kitty's murder was just a brief mention in the New York Times, just four paragraphs written on March 14th, 1964. The police didn't have any leads on who her killer was, but they continued searching. They knocked on doors, they interviewed neighbors, and they learned that people witnessed the crime. On March 19th, the New York Police Department received a call about a robbery, a man named, named Mr. Claire saw Winston Mosley breaking into his neighbor's house and stealing a television. This guy jumped on top of Mosley and pinned him down until the police got there.

And you talk about taking the law into your own hands. This guy really got involved. He did, man. Good for him. This is the kind of neighbor that you want looking out for your stuff, ready to tackle an intruder just to make sure that they don't. steal your TV. He pounced. He did. When police got to the scene, they found a TV in the trunk of Winston's car. He was arrested and taken to the police station. And I think pretty quickly, he confessed to frequently stealing appliances, right? We mentioned it earlier. This guy was a crook. He was a thief.

He didn't have a record. He just never got caught. Well, now he's caught. The one thing that detectives noticed was that Winston drove a white Corvair. Remember the Corvair Gibbs? Chevy Corvair. What a sweet ride. Sweet ride. Isn't that the car that Ralph Nader said in the 60s was unsafe at any speed? Yeah, I think so.

I think it was. Yeah. The Corvair would just blow up on you. So along with the Pinto and there's some other cars back in the day. Just throw that into our fiestos. and our Ugoes. Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, I don't know that the Corvair was an ugly car. It's just Ralph Nader really got on it saying, this thing's a death trap. But the thing is some witnesses at the murder scene described seeing a white car. So a detective asked Winston where he was that night. He also said that people saw his car near Kitty's apartment. Winston wouldn't answer. So other detectives working the case were called in. They noticed some scabs on Winston's hands.

And I guess based on that in the car, they accused him of killing Kitty. Well, that's all it took. It is. I mean, I felt like they were kind of taking a shot in the dark there. But then I think they were really surprised when Winston immediately confessed to the murder. And it wasn't just kind of one of those, hey, I'll tell you anything you want to hear. He actually told them information that only the killer would have known.

And you got to think about this, Gibbs. You know, think about the hundreds of unsolved cases that you and I have done, where, you know, a lot of times, yeah, they struggle to find a suspect.

But a lot of times they have persons of interest. They have a suspect. And they just can't get that person to talk. Yeah. They think, yeah, they try. they think they know, you know, that this person did it, but they don't have the evidence.

And it's not like the person's just going to come out and tell them that, yeah, I'm the killer. Winston Mosley just came out and said that he was the killer. So around 1 a.m. on March 13th, Mosley said he left his sleeping wife and children to go prowl around for women. He said he'd been driving around all night, looking for a woman to kill. kill. He was armed with a serrated hunting knife. Now, he told him he had no motive other than a personal desire to kill. Okay, that is scary. When you think about how many people at one, two, three o'clock in the morning are just driving around in their cars looking for someone to kill. Yeah. Not to rob, not for any other reason other than they have a.

burning desire to kill someone. And he told police he'd almost given up for the night until he spotted Kitty. He saw her at a traffic light and decided to follow her home. When she parked, he parked near her and followed her. And he detailed out how he stabbed her and raped her. But he's in a pretty chatty mood at this point. He is because he doesn't stop with that confession. Winston also confessed to raping and murdering two other women. Annie Mae Johnson and Barbara Kralek. He said he killed 24-year-old Annie on February 29th, 1964, and 15-year-old Barbara in July of 1963.

Annie was shot and burned to death in her apartment. He followed Annie while she was driving around. He told police that he intended to death. to kill her in front of her house. He said, I shot her in the stomach. Then I reloaded and I shot her again in the stomach. And I guess Annie gave him her car keys and begged him to take her inside. He dragged her into the house, stole some money, shot her again.

And then after attempting to rape her, he set her body on fire. An animal, man. Yeah. I mean, this guy is an absolute. monster. Barbara was stabbed inside her parents' home while they slept upstairs. So she was sleeping in her room. When Winston Mosley attacked her, the Berkshire Eagle quoted Mosley as saying, I looked at her for maybe a few seconds. Then I put my knife into her. As I was stabbing her, she squirmed free from my grip. I put my hand over her mouth and I stabbed her some more. He said he thought about raping her, but then he heard a

voice from another room and he ran away. So again, extremely vicious. Yeah. This was a 15 year old girl. But how brazen Gibbs. When you talk about, you know, all of these attacks, this was a man who didn't seem to be all that worried about people seeing what he did. right there were people that witnessed him attack kitty right he shot and multiple times outside before dragging her into her apartment and then he slipped into someone's home and killed a 15 year old girl while her parents were sleeping upstairs this is real brazen type stuff i mean it's nasty it's vicious and all that. But it's also kind of brazen the way that he was operating.

Yeah, sure was. And again, I can't help but go back to the all for what? You know, his own words, a personal desire to kill someone. Yeah, the whole reason he got up and left his family in the middle of the night. You had to get that fix. Yeah. So, you know, you're definitely talking about some type of compulsion. But I also want to go back to,

Winston Mosley having this conversation with the police. Because you know Gibbs, they were taking just a complete shot in the dark. Well, sure. Hey, witnesses saw a white car. You drive a white car. You got some scabs or scratches on you. We think you killed Kitty Genevese. Yeah.

They don't have any evidence. No. And yet this guy confesses not only to Kitty's murder, but to two other murders. And he doesn't in such a nonchalant way. Like it's, this is what I did. Yeah. You know, like ordering a pizza or, you know, ordering at a restaurant. Let me tell you what happened next. Here, let me tell you what happened next. This is what I did. The other thing that police said that, that I think really shocked them, besides how nonchalant he was in describing the murders, they said that it seemed as though he considered murder and burglary on the same level.

You know, so you really have to wonder about a person like that who doesn't see ending a person's life or taking another person's life any different from stealing their stereo equipment. I mean, it's a problem that he can't see that one is worse than the other. Yeah. It's very strange. He admitted to police that he stole to supplement his income. So in total Gibbs, when he was all done confessing, he said he killed three women, raped eight women, and committed at least 30 burglaries, all from a place of what?

A hunch that detectives had that maybe they would try to see what he said about it? They had no evidence whatsoever. On March 25th, 1964, Winston was committed to a psychiatric hospital for observation. Then on March 27th, the New York Times published an article titled 38, who saw murder, didn't call the police.

This was the big article that is often talked about when it comes to the murder of Kitty Genevese. In the article, they alleged that neighbors heard and witnessed the murder and did nothing to help Kitty. And apparently the source for the article came from a conversation between the Times editor, A.M. Rosenthal and police commissioner Michael Murphy. Murphy is the one who made these claims. The Times wrote, for more than half an hour. 38 respectable law-abiding citizens in Queens

watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Q Gardens. Twice the sound of their voices and the sudden glow of their bedroom lights interrupted him and frightened him off each time he returned, sought her out, and stabbed her again.

Not one person telephoned the police during the assault. One witness called after the woman was dead. So this is what they reported. And this is something that you and I have talked about many times, the veracity of newspaper reporting. Right. You know,

that's one thing that we found researching these cases over the last five years is that, man, they often get a lot of things wrong. They do. You would think you'd be able to trust that type of source. But it's not always the case. No. And especially like the New York Times.

You kind of think of the Times as this huge respectable paper. Now, if the police commissioner is telling you this and that's your source, well, then you're going with that. Yeah. I mean, someone in fact check that and they're like, yeah, the commissioner did say that. Okay, this run it. That's what you think fact. checking is. Yes, he did say that. They claimed that the attack lasted 35 minutes and that the assailant had three chances to kill

Kitty. They said, Kitty was screaming, please help me, please help me. And not a single person did anything. Now, the spokesman for the New York PD told the times, there's no legal responsibility with few exceptions for any citizen to report a crime. We can understand the reticence of people to become involved in an area of violence, but when they're in their homes, near phones, why should they be afraid to call the police? And this is a very important article. It's really the basis for a phenomenon.

Psychologist would later name the bystander effect, also known as Genevieve's Syndrome. The bystander effect was named by John Darley and Bibblotane. It occurs because witnesses are less likely to help a victim of a crime if there are other witnesses around. So basically, the more witnesses you have, the less likely people are to help. Yeah, I can see that. Well, I was going to help, but they're there. They're help them.

How many times have you driven by somebody, it looks like they need help? But you're like, you know what? I think those cars will probably pull over and. Yeah, no reason for me to turn around and go back. Or there's already somebody pulled over. Yeah. I don't need to help. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's along those lines of I don't need to do anything because there's so many other people here. Someone is going to do something. And then, okay, nobody ends up doing anything. Kitty's case was one of the most cited incidents in social psychology research up until 9-11. Her murder was also used as support for the argument that cities were morally depraved and declining every day. So again, you've got this article saying all these people witnessed her murder and did nothing. Our cities are really going to pop, basically.

And I'm also thinking about the Seinfeld episode that kind of followed this as well, the bystander law. Yeah, I think they called it the Good Samaritan law. Yeah. don't think it's apples and apples because if if i'm remembering correctly there was nobody else that witnessed the crime other than them right and i don't even know why they called it the good samaritan law because actually there is a good samaritan law but it's designed to shield people i think from you know like if you're on the side of the road dying and i try to give you CPR and mouth to mouth and you die your family can't come soon me

I think is something like that. Which is good. No, it's a good law. Yeah, because people used to sue somebody for assisting them when they were injured and hurt. Sure. Yeah. He pulled me on my burning car because he did that. Now my back is broken. And I tore your guest jeans, so you want me to pay for your jeans?

Yeah. Your Jordash. But they don't think about the, my Jordash. But they don't think about the fact that they didn't burn up in a car. Yeah. I get you. You might be going a little bit over the top. but along those lines.

Yeah. And don't talk about my Jordashes and my Calvin's, because nothing comes between me and my Calvin's. Nothing. But I said right up front, Gibbs, that, you know, this article was proven false. Decades later, journalists began a movement to correct the misinformation,

spread by the times in the 60s. In 1979, ABC's 2020 tried to interview witnesses, but they couldn't get anyone to talk to them. In 2004, Jim Rezenberger wrote an article debunking the claims of the 1964 article. In 2016, an editor's note was added to the original 1964 article. It said, later reporting by the Times and others, has called into question significant elements of this account. And Kitty's younger brother, Bill, Geneviz, produced a documentary called The Witness. that really tries to debunk the Times claims.

He started filming it in March of 2004. He analyzed court documents, police records, and interviewed witnesses. And I think through all of these different investigations, it was revealed that really only a few witnesses saw what happened and failed to help Kitty. According to Bill's research, only five. of the 38 alleged witnesses were even called to the stand. And neighbor Carl Ross was one of the witnesses.

He was drunk that night, which I'm assuming is what got him arrested for disorderly conduct. He heard noises and decided to investigate. He witnessed Winston stabbed Kitty the first time. He saw Kitty laying at the bottom of the stairs alive and trying to speak. And apparently Carl shut his door and called his friend to ask what he should do. And his friend said, hey, don't get involved. This isn't really bad advice, though. Well, and I think this is the heart of it, right?

You want to do what's right. You want to help people. But do you want to insert yourself into a situation where, let's say, a madman has a gun? Yeah. Has a knife and is stabbing something. someone, are you going to rush in and try to help? Some people would and some people wouldn't. Number one, they'd be frozen with fear. And I think to a lot of people, the risk of themselves being hurt would outweigh the, hey, I want to help this person. I just find it frustrating.

And why call your friend and not just call the police right then? Well, that part, yes, that part is hard to understand. What this guy ended up doing was climbing out his window and going to a neighbor's apartment. And it was after he heard Sophia Farrar call out for help that he called police. And he later said, I did not want to get involved. So, you know, he was the person that called police. But obviously, judging by what we just talked about, he could have called sooner. There's no out about that. You've got to call to a friend to ask advice. You're crawling out of a window to get to a neighbor's house. That takes time. And the thought was if the ambulance could have got there sooner, she might have lived. Right. We don't know how much sooner. We don't know if it's minutes.

Is it two minutes, three minutes, five minutes? I don't know. But you just think about how long it takes to do certain things. How long does it take to call a friend and kind of explain, what's going on. Then how long does it take to climb out of your window and go to the neighbor's house? Is it five minutes? Probably. Could five minutes have saved Kitty's life? Probably. So Sophia Farrar is one witness who did help Kitty. And I think she's often forgotten. She lived across the hall from Kitty and they were good friends. She showed no fear and helped her friend, despite the fact that she didn't know where the killer was, was he coming back. She forced open the door to get to her.

She held Kitty until the police arrived and she comforted her by saying, help is on the way. Sophia died in 2020. Her obituary states that the eyewitness number was exaggerated. No one saw the full attack. Those who heard it thought it was just a drunk couple. fighting and several people did call the police. Well, there you go.

Those are some actual facts that didn't get reported back in that time. I think the question is, when did those people call the police? Yeah, I mean, we know Carl Ross called. But as we just talked about, I think there's a lot of speculation that he could have called much sooner. Bill Genevieve spoke to Michael Farrar, Sophia's son. before she died, Sophia was not able to walk much. She couldn't leave her house, but she gave Michael information to tell Bill.

She said that night she and Michael heard a loud, what she described Gibbs, as a horrible blood-curdling scream. She said the screen was so loud that she figured the whole neighborhood could have heard it. Now, they couldn't see anything from their window and they tried to forget about it. But 20 minutes later, someone called Sophia and Sophia told her husband, Kitty's in the hole bleeding. So she threw on her coat and she ran downstairs. But when Sophia tried to open the door, it hit Kitty's body. Kitty was laying on the ground by the stairs. Now she was alert.

She was still fighting, but Sophia managed to calm her down. She also said that the entire foyer was covered in blood. Now, I don't want to bad mouth Carl Ross. I really. I really. don't. But it's hard not to take a look at these two individuals and see the differences in how they acted that night. Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, she sprung in the action. She put on her clothes and was like, I don't care what's going on. I'm going to help my friend. Yeah. She didn't have to call a friend to ask the friend, what should I do? And she had no idea where the killer was, was that person coming back, would she get attacked? She, like you said, she, she just sprung into action.

According to Sophia, she stopped talking because the paper twisted her words. She said that she wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing again, but the paper claimed she said she'd never get involved again. Well, that's why some people quit talking. Yeah. Bill found another witness who heard the murder and he read her court testimony.

She heard a voice from her apartment. she heard screaming and she saw a man running to the bus stop. She saw the girl get up slowly and scream for help and then she walked back to the street. A few minutes later, the man came back walking normally as though nothing had happened. He went to the train tracks and came out again. He went to the back of the building. This woman couldn't really see anything, but she heard help, help two more times. Another individual who heard Kitty was Irene Frost.

That night she heard a scream. She got out of bed, looked out her window, and saw a man and a woman standing in front of the bookstore. Nothing happened, so she went back to bed. But shortly after that, she heard, please God, please help me, I've been stabbed. Irene saw Kitty kneeling on the sidewalk and a man running down the street. So from all of this investigation, Bill determined that the number 38 most likely came from the 38 interviews that police conducted. There definitely was not 38 eyewitnesses.

The only call on the police's call log was from Carl Ross, despite reports from multiple people that they called the police. The police never made a record of Sophia's statement. So it's possible that they missed a lot of details that night. You know, as far as the call log, I can see whoever's taking the calls at the police station probably got the one call, logged it, maybe a few other calls came in and said, yeah, we heard about that. We're aware of it. It's possible.

You know, and just didn't log the rest of them. Yeah, I could see how that could happen. But I could also see Gibbs people later saying that they called police because. they didn't want to be in that camp of someone who heard or saw something but didn't do anything. Yeah. So I think it could go both ways. Sure. So we know all of this information now.

But at the time back then, all people knew was that Winston Mosley was an evil man who murdered an innocent woman. And her neighbors watched it all happen without any concern. And I think that has to be tough, too. if you live for years and years with people thinking that you were so callous, that you heard something, you saw something, and you didn't do anything. When you really did, well, that's not good. All because of a newspaper article? It's tough.

It's really tough. At his murder trial, Winston pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, but he was declared fit to stand trial. on June 10th, 1965, he testified in court and described in detail the women he had killed. And Gibbs, he said he felt no remorse or guilt for the things that he had done. Okay. Well, you're not really trying to get out of this. And I guess it was probably hard for him to get out of it at this point.

He confessed in detail to, you know, the murders, rapes, all of that. that. I guess his only chance would have been an insanity defense, but that was nullified. Winston's trial ended later that day, and he was found guilty of murder and rape. Kitty's family never went to the trial. Gibbs, they just couldn't make themselves go and sit there and face hearing the details of her death, which I always think would be extremely hard. for family members. Now, I think by and large, most of the time family members attend the court hearings. They want to see the person they believe killed their loved ones face justice. Yes. Doesn't mean it's easy. It cannot be easy. So I don't blame a family or family members at all

if they say, you know what, I don't want to sit there and hear all of this. I can understand. why someone wouldn't want to put themselves through that. It would be so difficult to hear all that. But like for me, I'd want to be there because I'd want to try to look the guy in the eyes. You know, I'd want to make sure he sees me. Yeah, I'm with you. I believe I would want to be there too. But I cannot blame people that decide not to go.

And I would be worried that once I heard all the details of what happened, I might try to jump over the table or whatever. to get my hands on them. Well, my assumption is they would put extra security in place ahead of time, knowing that you were in the courtroom. They would have to. Yeah, I think there would be some tasering probably. I can imagine you'd get tasered at some point during a trial.

You know, I've been tasering before. Yeah, it doesn't always stop you, but, you know, they might have to go two or three, like in the hangover. Yeah. You know, it might take more than one. Last time it was more than one, I wet myself. To put you down. Winston was sentenced to death on June 15th, 1965.

It is sentencing, the judge said, I must say, I feel this may be improper when I see this monster. But I wouldn't hesitate to pull the switch on him myself. So, I mean, this is a judge who's not mincing words. Most judges don't talk like that. and this was a judge who was known to be opposed to capital punishment. So I think that tells you just how strongly he felt about this guy and the heinous crime that Winston committed. But he really felt that the punishment fit the crime.

But not only that, but he said he would pull the switch himself. According to the Berkshire Eagle, Winston showed not a hint of emotion when he was sentenced to death, and I guess the courtroom spectators applauded, as the judge read the sentence. Robert Sparrow, Winston's lawyer, later told Bill Genevese that the best word to describe Winston Mosley was ice. Nothing phased this guy at all. He said that Mosley was bright and manipulative. Gibbs, he estimated that Mosley's IQ was somewhere around 135.

That's the case. that would put him in the range of being extremely intelligent. Yeah. And when you realize how intelligent he was, you have to ask yourself, so when he confessed at all those, he didn't have to. He knew what he was doing. Is that because he was tired? He wanted to be caught?

He wanted this to move on? Or did the police really outwit him? I don't know that the police did anything special. Yeah. All they did was say, hey, you'd drive him. drive a white car, you got some suspicious scabs on you, we think you might have killed this woman. Yep, I did it. And I did these other ones too.

And not only that, but let me tell you about this, this and this. I don't think the police were so smart that they bamboozled this guy. Now, was he tired of the frog demon, the compulsion, the having to go out at night and stalk women? I don't know. Because I always think that these guys are so into this. That they don't want to get caught because that means they'll never be able to do it again. But yet he confesses so easily that, you know, what other type of conclusion can you draw?

And the way that he confesses. Like it's no big deal. Here's what happened. Yeah. I did this. I did that. Even his attorney said that. the way he talked about his crimes, no matter how severe they were, it was like he was telling

you what he had for lunch. That's why he called him mice. Yeah. No emotion whatsoever. In 1967, New York State abolished most capital punishments. The state abolished the death penalty unless an officer was killed in the line of duty. A murder was committed in a prison or during a prison escape. Now, the decision was not retroactive, but the court allowed Winston's appeal. He won his appeal and his death sentence was reduced to life in prison on June 1st, 1967. Winston actually escaped prison in 1968 during a hospital visit. Apparently, he overpowered a guard, stole his gun, and fled. He terrorized the city of Buffalo for about four days. Gibbs, he raped a woman and held some people hostage at gunpoint until he was captured.

Bad dude, man. Yeah. Now, when he was arrested, he received 30 more years in prison as punishment. But he was already doing life. And what were the chances that he was going to get out on parole? Who was going to let this guy out on parole? Well, early. We say that, but we have seen some questionable releases in the past.

Yeah, I think that's actually an understatement. So you got me there. But to a guy like Winston, serving a life sentence, what's 30 years? It's definitely not going to deter him from trying to escape and harm innocent people. You know, in 1971, he did participate in a pretty famous prison uprising. Adica. Yeah. The deadliest prison riot in U.S. history.

And Winston was a part of it. In later prison interviews, he said that he was going to try to do positive and constructive things to make up for his crimes. I guess this was after he escaped and committed more crimes. Yeah. Now. Now I'm going to do better. Starting right now.

Yeah. Forget about that other stuff. Starting right now, I'm going to make up for it. He earned a degree in sociology. And he even wrote an editorial piece for the Times, claiming he was, was reformed. Bill Genevieve spoke to Winston's son, Stephen, while he was filming the documentary. Stephen was very defensive of his father and said he was a good person. Stephen said that Winston told him Kitty was calling him racial slurs that night. And that's why he killed her. Now, I don't know

if anybody believes that. I doubt it. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I can't. can't imagine too many people do. Winston also told Stephen that the Genevice family was involved with the mafia. And Winston sent Bill Genevise a letter explaining that he was just a getaway driver for a mobster who executed Kitty. So he wrote this elaborate story, Gibbs, trying to tell Kitty's brother exactly what happened, but it was all a lie. So where's the positive and constructive, uh,

Things he was going to do. Maybe he hadn't started at this point. Well, it's going to be now. Starting right now. I got you. Winston's final appeal was rejected in 2015. And he died at the Clinton correctional facility on March 28, 2016 at the age of 81. So he spent 52 years in prison, one of the longest serving inmates in New York.

It's a long time. 52 years. Now, is it long enough? No, not to me. I mean, I think for what this man did, if he's not going to get the death penalty, then he deserved to die in prison. I just can't see a monster like this ever being set free. No. Because look what happened when he escaped. Yep. What do you think's going to happen if you release him back into society with basically no prospects, the chances of him going back. to doing bad things is about 99.9% in my opinion.

Oh, same here too. He's just going to repeat what he did that got him in prison in the first place. So I kind of touched on it, but Kitty's murder is part of the reason that we have the 911 system. New York City officials joined together in a national effort to get one emergency number rather than locals having to memorize the police station number before 911, people had to dial zero for the operator, or they had to actually dial the local police station. And sometimes it went from a communications bureau, then to being passed on to the police.

So you can see how that old system could cause significant delays in response times. 911 began in 1968. And we touched on good Samaritan laws, but those were also passed in New York to encourage people to take action and help victims. I mean, the 911 system, I don't know what kind of stats are out there, but I can't imagine how many thousands upon thousands of lives it has saved since being introduced. Oh, I don't think there's any doubt. Yeah. You know, and then at a certain point, you know, you get to where people have called 911, they're not able to talk, but 911 is able to trace where the call is coming from, help get sent. Yeah, just a lot of good things have come from that.

We've heard some good stories. You know, we've got Lisa that calls in now and then. Our 911 dispatcher. Yeah. So. For many years, Kitty's family, they just never talked about her. And obviously, it wasn't because they didn't love her. It was just that talking about her was too painful because all they could think about was her death. Most of them. Most of the Genevieve's grandchildren don't know anything about Kitty. Besides what they've researched themselves as they've gotten older, Kitty's girlfriend Anne struggled for a long time. She said that she felt like she just never got closure for what happened.

Well, it was love of her life. Yeah, the two of them were in love. They were planning to spend the rest of their lives together. But that was taken away from her unexpectedly. Bill Genevisa said that although many people heard the murder rather than witnessed it, Kitty's case is still an example of the bystander effect. And apparently this is a pretty shockingly common phenomenon. And you and I have touched on it before, right?

The natural tendency when people hear something disturbing is to brush it off and move on. Yeah. I think I've told you before. I hear gunshots all the time. You know, there's a farm across the way from my house. There's always somebody shooting a gun over there. So when I hear a gunshot, I don't think anything about it. I go, it's that neighbor shooting his gun off again.

Now, people that live in New York City, okay, that's not the norm for them. And in other areas of the country, but those of us that live in, I'm not even in a rural area, but in a somewhat rural area, you hear a gunshot, your mind does not automatically go to, oh my gosh, something bad is happening. Yeah. You think somebody's just out in the field somewhere firing a gun. But if you're in an urban area, it's a whole other story. It is.

The problem is, you know, brushing it off, it's not always the right thing to do. If you hear or see something that isn't right, it's better to be safe than sorry. You could save someone's life by checking on them. or calling for help. But I get it. You know, we're all busy Gibbs. People want to get where they're going. And there are those people that just do not want to get involved in something that they

think might be dangerous or maybe just none of their business. I think everybody has to make those types of decisions for themselves. I will say for me, because that's really all I can speak to. if I saw something and in my heart, I knew it wasn't right. And I walked by it. And then I later saw on the news that that person was killed, I would feel horrible. Yeah. That I didn't do something when I had the chance either to actually intervene or at the

very least to call police and say, hey, you might want to check this out. I don't, there's something not right here. And I get it. a lot of people would not want to physically intervene because they would be scared. Sure. Shouldn't be scared to call the police. No. I mean, if nothing's going on, nothing's going on.

And the police have come out and they've checked on it. Okay, did they waste some time? Maybe. But in the grand scheme of things, is that better than not calling at all? I think it is. I think they would say better to call us than not. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

But that's it for our case on Winston Mosley. in the murder of Kitty Genevese. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's check them out. Hi, my kitty. So I found your podcast randomly a while ago, and I'm a delivery driver, so I listen like every single day.

I started back with your first episodes, and it's amazing to see how much you guys have changed over the span of time. It's amazing. Keep doing what you're doing. But I just had to call because I'm currently listening to, the John McCray episode and it is kind of

freaking me out because that is actually my dad's name is John McCray in the McCray clan hailing from Scotland there's a lot of John so thankfully this is not actually my dad but it's just really creepy

every time you say John McCray it just like tingles down my fine and it's very strange but yeah I just had to and let you know that this one is just extra strange for me. But thank you guys so much for all you do and keep your own time taken. Well, I think that would be strange. If you were listening to a true crime podcast and they kept saying your dad's name

the entire time and he was doing bad things, I do think her turn signal was on the entire time or she's a safe delivery driver. Or she forgot to turn it off. Or that was something completely different that was making. some noise that sounded like a turn signal. Maybe it was the flashers. That could have been because she has to jump out and make the delivery. I'm going to be on the phone.

I'm going to pull over and make my call. Super safe. Super safe. Gotcha. Hey guys. It's this, That's Lisa, and I have to tell you,

I'm a little frightened. I'm starting to share a brain with Gibby because right before he said that about the Jimmy comment, I was thinking about Seinfeld and Jimmy does this and Jimmy does that. So there's that. Maybe I need to back off of listening for a while. Nah. You guys have a great day.

Stay safe and keep your own time taken. Wait, does she trying to imply it's a bad thing to think like, Kibby? Do you think it's a good thing? Well, that's true. No, that's funny, though. I didn't even put it together. We just talked about her and she left a voicemont. I didn't even remember that it was going to be on this episode.

Yeah. Even reference a little sign felt. Yeah. So all full circle. It did. Hi, my name is Beth. I've been listening to your podcast, both of them, for the past couple years, love them. There's so many things that I enjoy about your podcast.

A couple of them are just Rex West, of course, and I actually have a grandson named Rex. So I totally identify with him. Tom Cruise is Jack Reacher. No way. Agree with you there. my son's birthday is the same as Mike and I just totally love you guys Mike and giving keep your own time ticking and I'll continue to watch and listen bye bye wow a lot of connections yeah she has a grandson named Rex so you know when the Rex West talk comes up that's got to be a little tough it's probably a little worried that maybe he might go into dancing the clubs I doubt it I doubt it I'm sure he's being raised to correctly no i'm just kidding no that makes dancers sound like they weren't raised correctly that's not true hey those male review teams man we were someone was went to mit that's mike's international

talent school but wouldn't that be mIT oh yeah well again that's why we did not go to the real mit you said almost went yeah i can say i almost went to harvard well yeah sure how you like those apples You know, I was 0.1% of the way there, but I almost went. Yeah, I mean, my car was headed that direction. Hi, Mike and Gibby and Sydney in Indiana. I am also a milk carrier. That kind of sounds like you're a city one. I'm a rural one from Reno, Nevada.

And I also listen to true crime shows while I'm out delivering. I sort of keep them. I listen to them even when it's raining because I keep it close to my heart. I cheat and I keep my phone in my bra. Anyways, you were saying you deliver in a somewhat scary area where you look behind your back. And I am, I was rural, deliver out where there's hardly anybody. And so, you know, especially during Christmas time when we're just out for 14, 15 hours a day. And it's super, super dark.

And I'm out in the middle of the countryside with hardly anyone around. Sometimes I have to take a little mini break from listening to them because I start realizing that I'm all by myself in this truck with bright, light flashing saying, I'm all alone and I don't have good night vision. But anyways, I wanted to thank you Mike and give me so much for giving me something to focus on so I'm not incredibly bored while I am delivering the mail. And I wish you guys all the best. Thank you.

Well, that mail delivery business is scary. Yeah. I may have given off the wrong impression over the years, Gibbs. I was a mail carrier. Yeah. But only for a summer. Yep. while I was home for college.

I did have my own truck and everything. You did. I didn't have to wear the uniform. I just wore like shorts and a t-shirt. Where I did have to wear the uniform. Well, a better looking uniform. When you drive for brown,

then that's what you got to do. Exactly. So, but we appreciate the voicemails. Gives we had some mail bag. Lori L. sent us a couple of handmade, keep your own time ticking clocks.

Very cool. Tick-tok, tick-toc. Yeah. Hand-made and they work in everything. Yeah. So we appreciate that. All right, Gibbs.

That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.