True Crime All The Time - Yazeed Essa

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

Yazeed Essa was a respected doctor with a loving wife and two young children. But, that wasn't enough for Yaz. He engaged in a number of extra-marital affairs and longed to be free to live a playboy's life. So, he hatched a plan to kill his wife Rosie. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murderous doctor Yazeed Essa. Yaz thought he was smart enough to get away with murder by refilling his wife's calcium pills with cyanide. Rosie crashed her car at a very slow speed, and when she died later at the hospital, investigators knew there was no way it was caused by the car crash. The investigation began into her husband Yaz but it wasn't easy because Yaz fled the United States.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 208 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? Hey man, how you doing? I'm doing well. I think people are more interested in how you're doing. I'm trying to get there, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, not to speak for you, but I can see an improvement since you were in studio last week. Yeah. But you still have that COVID pneumonia in your lung. I do, man. You cannot get rid of it. It's going to take a while.

It's a monster. It is, man. It really is. But you're eating better. You're feeling better. You're just not 100%. Yeah, I'm like 60%. Yeah.

So everybody, they definitely want those type of updates. People are always asking me for it. So we have to give it. But I'm excited. We've got a couple of brand new episodes. We haven't had new episodes, really, in a little while since you got sick. So that's good. Yep. But before we get into that, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Beck Ayensdale. Hey, Beck. Miracle Ridge, Nigerian goats jumped out of our highest level. Those are awesome goats, man. Brenda Kipling. Hey, Brenda. Jamie Peterson jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Peterson. Patty Miracle. What's up, Miracle? Sammy Davidson. Hey, Sammy. Greg Deloche. What's happening, Greg? Jordan Nold jumped out of our highest level. Oh, thanks, Jordan. Joe Saline Rodriguez. Hey, Josaline.

Norel Peterson, who I think sent us something in the mailbag as well. I appreciate that, Norel. Bonnie Mohan. Hey, Monty. Anita. Anita Cawall Cawain. Hey, Anita. Joel Browner.

What's going on, Joel? Richard Embry. Hey, Embry. James Corriglio. Corriglito. Eva Landdary jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Landre? Celeste Gray.

Hey, Celeste. Michelle Slocum. If you can't, join him, Selocom. Exactly. Chels Noak. Hey, Chels. Camio Patch. What's going on, cameo?

Chris the big Lobowski. Yeah, Lebrowski in the house. He just said Lerowski. John Quillen. Could have been Lebrowski. Could have really big brows. Mm-hmm. You know?

Because you're a big browser in right now. Are they? I did not know that. Well, females, but maybe guys too. I don't know. I didn't know either one of those. Hey, Quillen. Roxanne Richardson jumped out to highest level.

What's happening in R.R. And last but not least, Sheila Fru. What's happening in Sheila? then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Robert Baker. What's up, Robert? So we appreciate all the new Patreon support and the continued support. It's amazing.

It is. We had some great PayPal donations as well, Jennifer Wormuth. Hey, Jennifer. Kelly Moss. Hey, appreciate it, Kelly. Samantha unhier. Is it what you're going to go with? Ungahir.

Ungahir. Oh, maybe. Got to extend that er out a little bit. And Simon Appleby. Well, what's up, Simon? So thanks to all of you also. We had a Patreon merch winner for October, and that was Kim Thoreau. Yeah, appreciate it, Kim.

So congratulations to Kim. Gibbs right now, we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're going back, Away's. We are. This is going to be one of the oldest episodes probably we've ever done, the very early 1900s. Yeah. To talk about the murder. of Rebecca McClung.

This is an interesting case for a number of reasons. I mean, first of all, it's very close to you and I. It is. It's about 20, 30 minutes down the road from where we are in studio. So there's an element there. But, you know, I think when you dive into some of these unsolved that are this old. Yeah. You know, chances are the person that did this, and I shouldn't even say chances are,

whoever did this is long deceased. Yeah. Yeah, this is always going to be unsolved, I think. Well, in a way. It's going to be unsolved because you can never prosecute that person probably. Right. But it doesn't mean that we can't go through the details and people can't kind of make up their own mind as to what happened and maybe who was involved.

Exactly. That element still remains. Sure. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Man, I am so ready. We're talking about Yazid Issa. And this case is going to take us around the world.

Yeah, I like going around the world. I know you do. Yeah. I know you do. You're a world traveler. Exactly. Everybody knows that. But, you know, this is an interesting case because we're talking about a doctor who seemingly

had it all, but wanted out and tried to figure a way out. And part of that was to kill his wife. And I think, you know, when you start. out talking about this case, you know, I said it seemingly had it all. So to the outside world, this was the perfect couple. They should have had everything. They should have lived happily ever after. You can use all those cliches. Right. You had a beautiful nurse, Rosemarie DiPuccio, and a handsome doctor named Yazid Issa, or Yaz, I think as most people called him. Pretty striking pair.

Yeah. Friends and family all said that. The two met in 1995. Well, they were working at Mount Sinai Hospital in Cleveland, Ohio. Rosie and Yaz were married on September 11th, 1999. Now, at the time, that date wouldn't have really meant anything other than, okay, this is the date we picked to get married. Right.

But a couple of years later, that date meant something called. completely different, right? The 9-11 attacks happened. Right. Kind of a strange day, I guess, to have for your anniversary after what happened. They had their first child, a son named Armand a year later. They had a daughter named Lena in 2002. But again, I mentioned it, right? Friends and family said that to them, they thought Rosie and Yaz had a perfect life. They had a beautiful home, two great children, they were even thinking about having a third child. But 10 years after the couple met, Rosie died in what appeared to be a tragic car accident. But police found Rosie's death suspicious.

And they began to peel back the layers on Yaz, Issa. And what they found would be a conniving, manipulative guy, right? This was a husband who was a philanderer who obviously had a motive for murder. Bad guy. He was a bad guy. Yeah. And I think we see that in some of the cases we do, right? From the outside, people look at these guys, and I'll say guys, women too.

Sure. As, wow, these people are great. Look at them. Yeah. They have great jobs. They have great families. But nobody really knows. When you start peeling back the layers, kind of,

to pull back the curtain, what's going on with some of these people. Yeah, you know, it is when you meet certain people, like you said, they look great on the exterior. They say the right things. You know, you can even be at an event with them and you think they're great, but then you find out later what they're really like. And you're like, hmm, not so great. Not so great. So let's talk about that day.

February 24, 2005, Rose Marie Issa was scheduled to meet her sister at the movies. So she left her house in her Volvo before 2 p.m. to begin the drive about five miles from her home. Rosie passed out and struck another vehicle before her car rolled to a stop against the curb. You know, police estimated that her speed was very low. I've seen reports Gibbs. It showed it maybe even as low as 10 miles per hour. Yeah. This was not a high speed impact. And in a Volvo, too. which are historically pretty safe cars. Right. I have never owned a Volvo, though. But my understanding of that brand is that they do place a lot of emphasis on safety. So we're talking about a very low impact crash. But when first responders got to Rosie, they saw that she was barely conscious.

She was slumped in her seat. She had her phone out, her cell phone in her hand. And it would later. be determined that she was trying to call her husband yet. So emergency personnel rushed her to the hospital and Rosie's family who had been notified, they rushed to be there at her side. I mean, it's a story that happens all the time across the world. Yeah. Car accident, somebody's hurt. Yep. Family rushes to the hospital. Everybody's worried. They're there just to give support, prayers, whatever they need to do. Her parents and siblings.

gathered around Rosie. They were trying to comfort her. Yes, was in the room as well. But Rosie's family members later said that his behavior was very strange. He was kind of standing off by himself, right? He wasn't at the side of the bed. He wasn't at the side of his wife, the mother of his children, as you would expect somebody in that situation to be. Oh, absolutely you would. Get that support. And I would think because he's a doctor, he'd want to be up there making sure things are getting addressed the way they should. Yeah, we haven't talked about it yet, but yes, was a doctor.

So, I mean, I think that even adds a little something to it. But, you know, not even being a doctor. Myself, thinking about what I would do in that situation, you know, I'm kneeling at the side of the bed. I'm maybe trying to hold my wife's hand. I'm doing whatever I can to. support her, I'm sure as hell not standing off in the corner, kind of being cold. Right. Which is the way I think her family thought he was acting. He wasn't hugging them. He wasn't interacting with the family, let alone her. Unengaged. Yeah. Yeah. It was like he was trying to

distance himself from not only his wife, but everyone in the room. But unfortunately, the hospital staff could not save her life. And Rosemary Issa was pronounced dead at 302 p.m. Not much more than an hour after she left her house. So if you think about it, this happened very quickly, right? The crash, right, which I already mentioned was not a high speed crash. Right. It would have taken some time to get her to the hospital. Within an hour of leaving her house, she's dead. So you have to ask that question, right? How could a seemingly healthy 38-year-old woman die from such a low-impact car crash? I'm sure. A lot of people ask that question. Yeah, I think they did. I also think everyone was stunned that this could have happened the way it did. And I think one of the things that was on everybody's

mind very early on was that Gibbs, there's just really no way that she could have died from this car accident. There had to have been something else involved. And as the facts of this tragedy started to come out, everyone from Rosie's family to police investigators, they thought the same thing. But they also started to take a very hard look at her husband, Yaz, Issa. So let's step back for a minute, talk about Yaz. He was the son of a Palestinian immigrant. His father had realized the American.

dream, built up his own business through an incredible amount of hard work. I mean, that's kind of the all-American story, right? People immigrated here from other parts of the world. They worked hard. They built something trying to get a piece of, you know, that American dream that people call it. Yeah, we all want a piece of that. This was a Palestinian-American family growing up in the city of Detroit.

family members have said that from a very early age, Yaz wanted to be a doctor as well as a successful businessman. His family moved to Cleveland in 1988. And that's where Yaz attended medical school. He obtained his goal of becoming a doctor. But he still had that kind of entrepreneurial spirit, right? He wanted to do something in business as well. And over the years, he did own several.

several different businesses. He started some with his brother. Fearers. I think first they had a pager business. That's an awesome man, which was really big, you know, back in the day. You probably had three pagers on you. I never had more than one, but I always had one. It seemed like every company I worked for required you to have a pager. They wanted to know where you were at all times. I think for me that was kind of the beginning of the end of things as we knew it. Right. If that makes any sense. Because before that, if you were out and about, nobody knew where you were.

And nobody could just kind of reach out and grab you. Yeah. The way that they could once pagers came in, then even more so once the cell phone became ubiquitous. Remember a little code you put on the pager? So you knew if it was a rush call. or call me when you could. Yeah, you mean like 9-1-1? Yeah.

People would put 9-1-1. Now, I did have some of those first pagers. And then they got pretty sophisticated later on right before cell phones came out. I remember I had one where people could leave a voicemail and somehow the service would put it into a message. You just scroll through the message. That would show up on the page. It was almost like text. Right.

But somebody couldn't type it out. had to leave it as a voicemail type thing. Some of these younger people are like, what in the hell are you talking about? What are you talking about, man? First of all, stop making stuff up. But we all know that one guy. I mean, there was always somebody you knew that had like, seriously, had like three pages on them.

Multiple pagers, yeah. Well, that's my work. That's my one for home and that's my one for my one business. This is where I get my weed. Okay. I gotcha. So they, I think they did have a pager business early on. And then at some point they had a satellite dish company.

Because again, that was very big. You're talking about the big satellite dishes? Yeah. Yeah, I think those, you know, before direct TV, before dish and all that, there were companies that would come out and install those great big satellite dishes. You'd get a whole bunch of channels. I always hated those in real estate because when the people left, they left it behind. Well, sure.

The other people didn't want it. And so you had to find somebody that could take it out of there. Yeah. And it was never cheap. Because nobody wanted it. it, but it was not like some lightweight thing. Yeah, we never had one. I mean, where I lived more like a neighborhood, right, you didn't see a bunch of those. That was usually more reserved for people that lived out rural, a little bit in a more rural setting, because those things were huge.

They'd take up a whole regular backyard. Yeah, they were big. The brothers were at one point profiled in the local newspaper for these businesses. So, you know, the, Yaz was a handsome guy. He was tall. He was broad-shouldered. He had green blue eyes. It was said that all the nurses at the hospitals where he worked, they kind of fond over him. Right. Here's this good-looking doctor. Yeah. A lot of times, you know, that would be somebody that maybe people would look at as a catch. He's making a lot of money. He's a good-looking dude. He's got a pageer business. He's got his own paid your business. So a satellite dish. But I think even beyond that, colleagues at some of the hospitals where Yaz worked as an ER doctor, they said he was a good doctor. I mean, they trusted

him completely. But it was alleged that Yaz was a pretty heavy drinker. And in fact, after the death of his wife in 2005, he had his medical license revoked for failing to provide a urine sample for screening and for failure to appear at a board appearance. So I think what you have is what sounds to me Gibbs like two different yazes. You have the yazz up to a certain point that seemed like he had, you know, his you know what together. It's a little concerning that he was an ER doctor. And I mean, I get it.

They don't want you to be in their way when your spouse is in the hospital. Yes, yes. But you're going back to him standing in that room. Yeah. His wife is not doing well. You would think he would take a little bit of an assertive role. Well, sure. Yeah.

And be right there by her side. If not to comfort her, which you think he would. But even if he's not going to do that, he's going to be on top of all the medical things that are happening. Are they doing everything they possibly can at this moment? Exactly. But he didn't do either one of those. No. And I think there were some early signs pointing to strange behavior by Yaz Isa.

We mentioned it, right? He was standoffish in the hospital room. He kept to himself later after his wife died, his family and friends gathered later that evening at his house. Rosie's brother, Dominic Dupac Dupacio, received a phone call from Rosie's best friend, Eva, later that evening. So this is the day that Rosie died. He got a phone call later that evening.

He had to break the news to Rosie's best friend that she was gone. But on the phone, Eva had a very interesting response to the news that her best friend had passed away. The first words out of her mouth after hearing the news reportedly were, oh my God, that son of a bitch, he killed her. So, you know, I think as the brother, you're taking that very seriously. Yeah.

Like what makes you say that? Yeah, because, you know, Eva would go on to say that she had spoken to Rosie on the phone as she was making that fateful car trip earlier in the day. And she said that Rosie had told her that she was starting to feel very sick as she was leaving the house. And Yaz, right before she left, had given her a calcium pill. Eva went on to say that Rosie relayed to her that she believed this calcium pill that her husband gave her might be what was making her sick. So, you know, I think it's not hyperbole to say that this little pill, what Yaz-Eisa called a calcium pill, would become central to the case of the death of Rosie Issa. But Rosie's brother Dominic has this information. Right.

What's he going to do with it? Well, I know what he should do with it, but we know that's not the case. And I'm assuming by that you're saying, take it to police? Absolutely. So I think what he did was he talked it over with his brother first. And his brother Rocco and he, you know, they had all these discussions. They went on for a couple of weeks trying to figure out what to do with this information. Do we sit on it?

Do we give it to police? But that's, I mean, I get it. They're grieving too and they get a funeral and all that. But that's still a long time. It is. To weigh that information. Do we or don't we? It's a couple of weeks.

Yeah. It definitely is. And Dominic would later say that the reason behind it was that he loved yet. He thought of this guy as a brother. And, you know, that early on during the grieving process, he just couldn't. believe that Yaz would have done anything to harm Rosie. Right. And I get that.

I think a lot of people would have that same kind of mentality. This is a person that you've known for a long time. Right. You've been to family functions. You've gone on vacations. You eat dinner. Somebody says something derogatory about them. And this is more than derogatory.

This is he may have killed your sister. Right. That's going to be hard to process, I think. Oh, I get that for sure. But you still could have dropped it in the lap of the police and let them do the due diligence on it. They could have, like, looked into it and, you know. Yeah, he definitely could have. And, you know, there were some other revelations that came out shortly after Rosie's death.

You know, I think her family had the sense that Yaz was taking her death, very cat. very casually, almost as if he was not affected by it at all. The entire DePuccio family offered their help to Yaz to take care of the children, but he refused to let any of them help in any way. Instead, what he did was he very quickly hired two nannies. Oh, interesting. Margarita Montanez and Michelle Madeline. So when we talk about trying to digest this information,

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So detectives with the Highland Heights Police Department, they began investigating the death of Rosie Issa. And of course, you know, as is always the case, they had to look at first those closest to Rosie, which included Yaz. Investigators very quickly discovered some interesting facts about Mr. Issa. They found out that he had been involved in a number of sexual relationships. over the course of his marriage to Rosie. Not such a good guy after all. No. And again, I think it goes back to when we're talking about peeling the layers away.

Well, when they started peeling, they found some rotten shit in the middle, which is often the case when you're talking about some of these people. And I think a lot of times Gibbs, people don't have to peel all that far. You know, some of this stuff is not hidden down deep. It's just right under the surface. Just right below the blanket, man. Throw him back the covers? Throw him back the covers. So he was cheating on Rosie, right?

And investigators determined that the two nannies that he has hired were two of his lovers, and that he was intimate with both of them in his house within days of his wife's death. Okay. I get it. You know, you can make the argument that, maybe a grieving person needs some companionship. Right. Are you really going to rekindle sexual trists with two females that you actually brought

into your house within days of your wife passing away? I think a lot of guys would look at that and say, no. No. That's just not how you do it. Nobody would feel the need to do that. You're grieving. Yeah. It doesn't make you look good.

at all. So when it all came out, Yaz had met Margarita Montanez in 2001. And they began a sexual relationship. At the time, they were both married. Michelle Madeline later stated that she met Yaz and began an affair with him prior to Rosie's death. So you have all these revelations, right, unpealing the layers or pulling back the covers, whatever you want to call it. They're not proving that Yaz had anything to do with Rosie's murder. But you'd have to say they're not painting this guy in a very good light at all. No, I mean, he was unengaged during her time at the hospital. He's not engaging the family anymore with help for the kids.

He hires the two women that he has had affairs with to be the nannies, which I would think that would be kind of awkward to have two women that you've had affairs with inside your home at this potentially the same time or maybe not Hugh Hefner gets away with it that's true you know not saying this guy was Hugh Hefner but I mean the whole thing is just so far out there yeah I think from where you and I come from from that standpoint of what's right and what's wrong what's ethical what's unethical all of this is way over the line for guys like you and me. Right.

And I'm sure for most guys listening, there's always somebody out there that's like, no, I'm okay with it. And like you said, he's supposed to be grieving right now too. Yeah. On top of all this. Yeah, but he's not. No. And he's not even really that good at hiding it because the family sees it.

Friends are seeing it. Investigators also found some people connected with Yaz that said he had made many statements over the years. stating that he wanted to leave his wife so that he could be free to sleep with whomever he wanted to. Again, not making you look that great, but on the flip side of that, Gibbs, you know, you could make the argument that he kind of was doing that already. It's almost as if he wanted to be free, but he wasn't letting being married stop him from catting around. No, we know that. So three weeks.

after Rosie's death on March 17th, 2005, detectives from the Highland Heights PD, they brought Yaz in for questioning. The autopsy of Rosemary Issa showed that she had more than four times a lethal amount of cyanide in her system. No, calcium pill, was it? No, it definitely wasn't a calcium pill. The problem is that autopsy information didn't come until later. So police and detectives, investigators, they didn't have that information when they set down to interview Yaz. What they did have was the information provided by Rosie's brother about his call and that information that came from Rosie's friend Eva.

But the detectives did, you know, they started to ask Yaz about the calcium supplements that Rosie was taking. when you look at the interview between the detectives and yes he appears to be very calm this is not a guy that is rattled or does not appear to be he's not sobbing he doesn't seem like he's overmatched by these detectives at all he told the detectives that rosy had not taken her calcium pill that day and that he had reminded her to take it just before she walked out of the door to go to the movie So as they're wrapping up this interview, one of the detectives asked Yaz if the calcium pills were still at home. And he said, yeah, yep, they are. Based on that, detectives asked if Yaz minded if they followed him to his house to collect the pills. And he said, no, not a problem.

Very calmly. So police went to the Issa home to collect the calcium pills. obviously gives with designs on sending them off to be tested. Right. But I think what a lot of people have wondered about this part in particular is how could this guy be so calm, knowing that that's not going to be good for him. If they get their hands on these pills, they test them, it's not going to come back favorable to him. Well, maybe he just didn't think they'd test him that way. I don't know.

Pretty smart guy. You would think that he would clue in that they're definitely going to take those pills and test them. Or maybe he thought he could get home just enough to switch him out with something. Or maybe he wasn't planning on being around by the time that these tests came back. So he just didn't care. Because when they did come back the results of the tests on the calcium pills, it was very clear that the pills had been laced with cyanide. At least nine of the capsules still in the bottle were found to contain cyanide. So I think at that point, everything changed, right?

Police believe that Yaz had deliberately introduced cyanide into Rosie's pills with the express intent of causing her death. Well, you know that this is going to ruin the relationship with Rosie's family. Yeah, I'm not sure how great it was at this point. But once they find this out, yeah, it's over. And I think that would be pretty shocking. Again, because we talked about how hard it would be to, you know, kind of think that this man you've spent so much time with could be a killer or your daughter's killer, your sister's killer. But that's exactly what they're going to find out. But I kind of hinted at it already, right?

Yeah, Zesa really wasn't afraid of the police because he had no intentions of waiting around for them to find out what exactly was in those calcium pills. Just days after the interview, he dropped his two children who were only four and two years old at the time off at Rosemary's brother's house. He told his wife's brother that he had to leave town because his friend had been severely injured in a car accident. So I'm really worried about my friend who was in this car accident. Yet my wife was in a car accident. I didn't seem all that concerned about it. Yeah, strange. You know, again, we do these episodes and it kind of jumps out.

It leaps out at you all of the instances where things don't make sense. Now, when people are going through it, they're not seeing it condensed in the way that we are. Right. So it doesn't maybe jump out as quickly. But that was a lie, right? That wasn't true. He didn't have a friend who was in a car accident. He went on the run.

And the FBI was called in to help track him down. And the first hit they got was that he purchased a plane ticket at a local travel agency. and then he made his way to Detroit. He partied with some of his old friends at a downtown casino. And then he crossed over into Canada. And that's very familiar to me. And I mentioned it before. I lived in Detroit.

Right. We used to go across the bridge all the time into Windsor, Canada. Partied up. Yeah. I mean, it was very easy when I lived there. But that was pre-9-11. Sure. This is post-9-11.

Yeah. But the guy's not probably on any watch list or at that point. They might be looking for him. So he wanted to talk to him. Rolling into Windsor and keep going all the way over to Toronto. Yep. And that's exactly what he did. He made his way to Toronto.

And it was in Toronto that he boarded a flight to Cyprus that included a layover at England's Heathrow airport. Investigators, they followed his credit card activity, not too hard. at that point in time. And they figured out that he was in Cyprus and then figured out that he later moved on to Beirut. Once he got there, he used a network of contacts that he had in the area to keep him well hidden.

And Gibbs, I don't think this was throw a dart at a map type of decision making. Yaz, Issa, he planned carefully. Yeah, he was smart about this decision. This was not a dumb guy by any stretch, right? But in choosing Lebanon as a destination, it was done deliberately because that country had no extradition treaty with the United States. So even if the U.S. authorities could track him down and find him, they would not legally be able to arrest him and bring him back.

Right. It's a safe haven for him. So there was an educated thought process that went into his actions. Yeah. Yaz had a man named Jamal Khalid, who he knew from his days in Detroit. This was the guy that was kind of helping him stay hidden in Lebanon. Khalif set Yaz up with a furnished department in Beirut, provided him with fake IDs, a bunch of different aliases. So he was set as long as he stayed low.

Yeah. That's all he had to do. Yeah. Here's the problem with Yaz. He wasn't that type of guy. He wasn't the guy to just stay in the shadows, right? He wanted to go out drinking, partying. And of course, he wanted to meet women. Yeah. We know he had a problem with booze. He did. And we know he liked women. I mean, I think that part was pretty obvious. I mean, I think that was his whole goal, right? He had told people that. He wanted to be free of his wife. He just wanted to go out and live it up and meet people and be able to sleep with as many women as he wanted to. And I think in Lebanon, he was able to do that.

His friend Khalif later said that Yaz spent the whole time that he was there in Lebanon, drinking, having sex with sex workers. But he also later admitted that Yaz was being funded by his brother for So Gibbs, when you boil it down, you have this guy, Yaz, Issa, he's on the run for murdering his wife. He's basically living life like he's on this extended vacation. Yeah. He also started dating a 38 year old school teacher named Nala. And this was a relationship that became somewhat serious. They, they were seeing each other every day. And at some point, Yaz did confide in this woman that police in the U.S. were accusing him of killing his wife. Yeah, but he really wasn't too honest about that. Well, he said he was completely innocent. The relationship's not going to keep going

if you say, you know, they're after me and I sure did it. Yeah. I sure did it. I killed my wife. Not too many women are going to say, that's okay. Yeah, I'm okay being your next wife. Yes. It's not going to happen. So he lived it up for over a year, but Yaz made a big, big mistake in October of 2006 when he boarded a plane to Cyprus. Because unlike Lebanon, Cyprus did have an extradition treaty with United States. And officials in Cyprus had been tipped off that Issa was on board the plane using one of these aliases that had been provided to him by his friend Khalid. So when the plane landed, authorities, in Cyprus were there to greet

Yaz-Esa. And he didn't look anything like he had looked, you know, a year or two prior. Yeah. He had very long hair. Oh, like you did when you were 19. Sure. Yeah. Sure. I went through that phase. Right. But, I mean, I think he did that for a reason, right? His look at the time really didn't match any of the photos that officials had of him. Yeah, the wanted pictures. Sure. but when he was fingerprinted, it was confirmed that they in fact had Yaz, Issa.

It's kind of hard to get out of that one. You can change your hair. You can get plastic surgery. I guess you can, at least in the movies, you can burn your finger tips off. I don't know. Chew them off. Oh, that's nasty. I know.

I've seen that. Do the face off. Remember that movie? Are we doing Nicholas Cage, John Travolta? Yeah. Changing the face. man, peeling it back. That's been a while ago.

I still don't think technology has evolved to that point. Yeah, it's going to get there that one day. You can be able to trade faces with people if you like. I think you and I should trade. Just here. And live each other's lives for a while and see how it goes. Yeah. There's all kinds of weird ramifications of that.

Okay, scratch that. Yeah. Scratch that. So they've got him, right? He made a big mistake. officials got him. But Yaz, Isa was not going to go back to the U.S. without a fight. He's going to fight the extradition back to face his charges. And that fight lasted another two years. In the meantime, prosecutors charged his siblings. So they charged his brother, Farras, and his sister Runa of taking

money from the companies that they owned to provide Yaz with the money. he needed to live his life on the run. Yeah. They accused Farras of embezzling over $2 million from this satellite company that he owned with his brother, yes, and then funneling that money into accounts managed by their sister, Runa. So then it was Runa who was responsible for secretly getting the money to Yaz, right? Which helped him lead this Playboy lifestyle.

It's a lot of money in that dish business. Yeah. Who would have thought? I bet you there was a lot of money in the pager business back in the day. Probably true. And then all of a sudden, it was gone. Because you know. Kind of like DVD.

When you're selling the pagers, you're selling those batteries too. Batteries. Well, and there was a plan. If you remember, wasn't there a plan that you had to pay for monthly? It was kind of like a cell phone plan. It was like $9 or something. Sure. Yeah, it wasn't like outrageous.

Yeah, but you had to have the plan. I just remember people would text things. There's certain numbers you could text that would say, instead of numbers, it would say words, they mess with you. You mean like on a calculator where it's spelled like, spell out like boob or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, people would do that all the time.

What kind of friends did you have that were juvenile enough to spell out boob on your pageer? Yeah, I think they're like, you know, attorneys now or something like that. You need to get some new, you should have gotten some new friends. They probably are. They're like high, like big professionals now. Yeah. one of them runs a minza that's how i got in oh is that how you got in i was like i knew he's going to let me in or i'm going to show everybody that this text on my page or it used to send me

i knew it was going to come out eventually but this was a big deal i mean and this was a tactic right the judge told yazz's siblings that they would likely get probation if their brother came back to face prosecution but if he didn't they were going to throw throw the book at him, right? Faraz could face up to 11 years in prison, while Runa could potentially face up to nine months. Well, 11 years is no joke. No, that's big time, man. So you're either going to hang your brother and sister out to dry or you're going to come home and face the music. But he didn't make that decision until 2009. Well, he might have made it a little earlier, but it was January 2009 when Yaz-Esa got off a plane in Cleveland, Ohio, and was met by FBI agents, he was transported to

the Cuyahoga County Jail to face charges of murdering his wife. His defense attorney, a guy named Stephen Bradley, made a very interesting statement regarding the reason why Yaz-Esa decided to give up his extradition fight. Bradley said, I think that you see that with the election. of Barack Obama, an African-American man whose last name is Obama being elected president of the United States. In Yaz's eyes, that signals potential change in the atmosphere of our country. Gibbs, if you remember back to that time frame, there was an atmosphere of change. Right. In a lot of people's minds. Sure. But I don't think what had changed was that,

but I don't think there was any change in most people's minds about, you know, a cheating husband who had murdered his wife. I don't, I just don't understand how the two went together. It's a whole different type of change. Yeah, there was a lot of people back in the day that were excited for Obama to see what he was going to do. I remember that. I just don't know how Yaz was putting that together with, well, you know what? You've got this president now. Maybe I'll be okay. Yeah, maybe he'll let me off.

Maybe he'll pardon me one day. I just didn't get it. So he was charged. He pleaded not guilty to the aggravated murder of his wife, Rosemarie Issa. But they set his bond at $75 million. Yeah, well, that's good. That's pretty high. Yeah.

But in justifying it, the judge said it's high because this guy's a big time flight risk. So if he wanted it to be bonded out, it'd be like $7.5 million, which, you know, I don't know anybody's going to give up $7.5 million to bond you out knowing that you're probably going to skip. Knowing that you've already run once and you have this whole network of people that may or may not be willing to hide you. Right. In early January 2010, the trial of Yaz-Esa for the murder of his wife began. So as you have in a lot of trials, right? You have both sides painting a very different picture of the whole situation and of yes. In opening statements, the prosecutor, Steve Deaver, he made the statement saying, what we're going to do is present to you a picture of a narcissistic sociopath who calculated an evil plan to kill his wife. And I think Gibbs what they set. about to do was hammer home the point that, you know, this was a guy who had consistently cheated on his wife and that in the end, he had killed her to be with another woman. And for them,

that woman was Michelle Madeline. You know, we talked about two different women that he brought into his house as nannies. Prosecutors presented evidence that Yaz had sent Madeline a pajama that said next Valentine's Day will be all ours. Okay. Well, what are you reading from that? Right. That my wife's going to be out of the way. You and I will be together with no body to interfere. Prosecutors also played a video of Michelle Madeline stating that Yaz had told her that she would be the only mommy that his children would member. So, I mean, we're not talking smoking gun type stuff here, but it's, it's damaging. It is. Depending on how the jury takes it. And the prosecution contended that yes, Isa, he didn't want to

divorce Rosie. He just wanted to replace her. And he wanted to do this without giving up any of his money so that he can continue to live the lifestyle that. he had grown accustomed to. And the only way for him to make this happen in his mind was to murder his wife. And I think you see that play out in a lot of husbands who murder their wives for a very similar reason. I'll say, yeah, it's kind of like a repeat of another bad plan. Yeah. I mean, it's a reason, it's the thought process behind a lot of murders. It really is. It's. And you and I have probably talked about it before, you know, a guy wants to get out of a relationship. Well, you can get out of just about any relationship.

There are ways to do it. The problem is money in some people's eyes. They don't want to give up any money. They want to get out, but they don't want to give up their fair share of the money to their spouse or whatever. They want their cake and they want to eat it too. And it's just not going to happen, man. Just do the right thing. It's not going to happen legally.

Well, darn sure. I mean, if you want out, get out. Yeah. Split the funds and move on, man. I'm sure there are many people that have gotten away with it,

both men and women. Sure. But there are also a lot of people that have been caught. But I don't think there's any argument that it's a big motive for murder, right? Money. It's right up there. Oh, it's greed, money, whatever you want to call. call it. It's one of those big motivating factors and a lot of murders. Issa's defense attorney

countered in his opening statements with, let me begin by saying that the death of Rosemary Issa was senseless and certainly tragic, but there is no motive whatsoever for him to have committed this crime. So what the defense tried to do in countering the prosecution's claims was to say that why would Issa have murdered his wife to be with Michelle Madeline? She wasn't the love of his life. She was just one of many. Right. I mean, they had to concede the point that, yes, yes, yes had been unfaithful to his wife.

He had had a bunch of affairs during the marriage. But Rosemary didn't know about any of them. I think that was an important point that they were trying to make. It wasn't like he had been caught. And she was about ready to leave him and take his money. What they tried to say was that it was actually Margarita Montanez who had murdered Rosie because she was jealous and she wanted Yaz all to herself. The defense team said there was no motive for Yaz to want his wife dead. He was a successful doctor who owned a thriving satellite business.

They told the jury that the couple. was planning on trying to have a third child, and they had no financial pressures whatsoever. So you say this a lot, Gibbs. What are they trying to do? Well, they're trying to plan a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury. That's their job. Yep. Exactly. And I think they really tried to hang their hat on the fact that there really was no evidence to prove that Yaz knew when he handed that calcium pill to his wife that it was laced with cyanide. Well, they could argue that because they can say, well, when the detectives asked if they could come by the house and get those pills, he acted very calm. Like, sure, you can get them.

I have no reason why you, I wouldn't want you to take them. Yep. You know, so that that can play a little bit. Now, as a juror, I think I would be thinking, okay, so how would the cyanide have gotten in there? And who else would have done it? Who else would have had a reason to do it? Now, the defense would say it was Margarita Montanette. Right.

She wanted Rosie out of the picture because she wanted Yaz to herself. I guess, you know, who had access to cyanide, who had access to the calcium pills. I think the problem with that is those, neither one of those women were living in the house at that time. Doesn't mean they couldn't have somehow. gained access. It doesn't mean that he didn't invite them over. Right. For a trist when his wife was away. And I'm sure the defense team probably could have proven that. Now, jurors learned about some strange and odd behavior that Yaz exhibited hours after his wife's death. I mean, I think we've already talked about some of it. But when family members gathered at the Issa home. Yeah.

after Rosie Dot. Apparently, Yaz was playing pool with friends. He was drinking. And he was making some inappropriate jokes. Very inappropriate jokes. The prosecution called one guy to the stand who had once worked for Yaz. And this guy testified that Yaz laughed when he made the statement, at least I won't have to sneak women into the house anymore.

I think as a juror, that's not looking too good. No. This guy went on to say that no one in the room laughed and the statement bothered him as being incredibly inappropriate. Prosecutors also called Michelle Madeline to the stand, one of the two nannies that Yaz had been sleeping with before and after the death of his wife. On the stand, she said to the jury that Yaz said he was not in love with. with his wife anymore.

He said she was a good person, but she was cold. And Madeline told them that Yaz had a nickname for his wife. He called her a manna after the refrigerator brand. A manna. Wow. That's rough. It is rough.

Your wife is so cold in your mind that you're going to start referring to her as a manna. Yeah. Or a frigidare or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I just, I think it really gets to the root of this guy's mindset. You know, he's kind of an asshole. Yeah. I mean, he really was.

Yeah. But aside from, you know, being a murderer, which we're going to get to here shortly, I think deep down, the guy was just an ass. Yeah. Clearly he had that personality. But prosecutors had more damning evidence besides, you know, know, Yaz's lovers and some of these people that said he made inappropriate statements, they called Yaz's brother, Farras to the stand, to question him about whether he had any communication with his brother about bribing someone not to talk.

Foras said, nope, never had that conversation. And then the prosecution hit him with a taped prison phone conversation. Yeah, love this. And you know, you and I've talked about it before. They tape all those damn calls. Sure they do. But still, people get on there and say all kinds of incriminating things. So this call was between Yaz and his brother. And Yaz asked Farras, what happened to the woman that you paid 25 grand to shut up? On the call, Farras said that they finally settled on 35 grand. So that's not good. because he just told the police he did not. Right.

I mean, right then and there, everyone knows you've perjured yourself. And again, how do you not know that these phone calls are not recorded? I even think they have a sign by the phone. Did you just outline it with your finger? I did. In a rectangle? Yeah, I'm trying to remember, you know, how big it was next to that phone on the wall there. Yeah, well, you were in there for a long time.

You should remember. I know. Should just come back second nature. But I think Gibbs, this was kind of one of those Perry Mason moments that we talk about, right? They got this guy dead to rights. Right. And they actually let him off the stand to consult with an attorney because he had clearly perjured himself. And it was a huge turning point in the trial because after consulting with his attorney, Frost knows he has to come clean.

Right. he's facing some serious jail time for what he just said on the stand. And so he comes clean. When asked by the prosecutor, whether his brother told him if he put cyanide in the calcium pills, Farras admits that yes, yes, yes, told him that he did. So I think right then and there, like I said, turning point in the trial, huge blow to the defense. That probably caught them a little bit off guard. how are they going to counter that. But the prosecution had another big witness in the form of Jamal Khalif. This is the guy that helped Yaz kind of lay low in Lebanon in 2005 and 2006.

Khalif had arranged to meet with prosecutors and detectives in Athens, Greece, back in 2008. And at that point, he made a deal. Yeah. Well, he needed to. He needed to. He said, you know what? I will tell you everything in exchange for immunity. So on the stand, prosecutors ask him to tell the jury what Yaz told him during the time they spent together in Lebanon.

And Khali said that Issa told him that he refilled his wife's calcium pills with ground up cyanide. He gave her two pills before she left the house. and that she had a car accident and died. Kleefe also testified that Issa was obsessed with Googling his name to see his status as one of America's most wanted. He had an ego man, didn't he? He did. Yeah.

He had a serious ego. So I mentioned it. You know, the defense was kind of up against it at this point. They tried to counter the testimony of Kaleef by saying that, you know what? This guy would say anything. thing to keep from doing time. Right.

And I think you can make that argument about witnesses that are granted immunity. I think that argument is made a lot. Sure, especially when they have a pass like he did. Yeah. And to be honest with you, I think sometimes that argument is valid. We've seen it in some of the wrongful conviction cases that, you know, people get immunity. They say things. It turns out not to be true.

but yet it was huge in prosecuting, you know, whoever it was that was on trial. The defense said that Khalif had fled Michigan for Lebanon in 1994 because he was under investigation for money laundering. So essentially they're just trying to tear down his character. But they were able to get Khalif to admit that he and Yaz had worked together on an insurance scheme. that involved Caliph's cousin, who was diagnosed with terminal prostate cancer. So part of the defense's argument was that Caliph was lying about Yaz as some form of revenge

after Issa threatened to out Khalif as being part of this insurance fraud, this scheme. During closing arguments, the assistant Cuyahoga County prosecutor said, that man right there took an oath to preserve human life. And what does he do on February 25th, 2005? He destroys it. Pretty true. Good point, man. I don't know how you say that's not true.

That's a good point. I mean, what's the oath? Do no harm? I mean, there's more to it than that, but that's like one of the big one. Yeah. The trial of Yaz-EISA lasted six weeks. More than 60 witnesses were called over 200 pieces of evidence. were introduced. The jury deliberated for 18 hours over three days after they got the case.

And on March 5th, 2010, the verdict was read just after 1 p.m. Finding Yazid Issa guilty of the aggravated murder of his wife, Rosemary. Many of the people in the PAC courtroom Gibbs, they burst into tears. And I can imagine that. My assumption is that. My assumption is that. that a large number of the people in that courtroom were friends and family of Rosemarie. Yeah, I mean, it had to be very emotional for sure. After the trial, one female juror said that Yaz showed no emotion during the trial at all, not even when a picture of his wife and children were shown in court. You know what?

I think all he cared about was having a good time, man. I think all he cared about was him. Yeah. I honestly do. And what he wanted. Yeah, feeding that ego. Boos, women, women, women. And he looked at his wife and kids as kind of being in the way.

They were a roadblock for sure. A roadblock. Yeah. I think that's a good word. Yeah. But this juror went on to say, when your kids aren't there, you're going to miss them. You're going to cry. So she's not even talking about his wife, really.

This juror is focused in on them showing. a picture of his kids who he hadn't seen for a long time and not an ounce of emotion for any of them. I don't think he cared, man. I think it had been five years from the time that he left the United States until the trial happened. You cry just four days, five days when your daughter leaves. Oh, I do. And when she comes back, you're like just a, you know. A blubbering.

You really are. Yes. Yeah. So this guy didn't see his kids for five years. years and had no expression, no tears, nothing. And again, when you look at what jurors pick up on and what they look at, aside from the evidence, you can't tell me that things like this don't play into trials. You know, this is a juror that's coming out and saying after the fact, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. That this guy was emotionless. Four days after the verdict,

Rosemary's family and friends were in court to give their impact statements to the judge before he handed his sentence down. Her parents and other family members told Issa what he had taken away from them. And they urged him to admit what he had done. And again, this guy sat there, didn't say a word, showed not one ounce of emotion through the whole thing. even when one of Rosemary's brothers read a statement from her children, his children, right, too, that read Rosie was my mommy and I miss her terribly each and every day. I mean, so I'm tearing up a little bit, Gibbs, just kind of imagining that scene playing out in the courtroom. Yeah.

These aren't even my kids. and I'm, you know, I'm getting a little bit emotional. This guy has no emotion. No. I mean, he's, he's heartless. He's, um, he don't care, man. I think it really kind of demonstrates the fact that he's probably a spot on narcissistic sociopath.

Yeah. I believe that. No remorse for what he's done. No remorse for the pain that he's caused. all of the people around him, including members of his own family, his kids. He's still waiting for Obama to get him out of there. Yeah. Again, I don't know why he thought a change in the presidency was going to affect how his trial

was going to go down in any way. I'm still shocked about that part. Wait a minute. What about the new president? You know, no, nobody doesn't work that way. The judge handed down a sentence of life in prison for Yaz, with the possibility of parole in 20 years. It's too bad.

Yeah, it's too bad. It's also, I think, lighter than what a lot of people would think the guy would get. You would think with the murder plus the evading and on the run internationally would be more than 20 years. Yeah. So he's scheduled to have his first parole hearing in November of 2008. doesn't mean he's going to get out, but it means he potentially could. Yeah. And I think that would be a real shame.

I think that would be an injustice to the memory of his wife, his kids, his wife's family. Hopefully, you know, her family, the kids will be at that parole hearing or at least be able to give statements. Well, yeah, you know they'll be old enough to speak eloquently. about what this has done to them. I think what this guy really has going against him is kind of the same thing that a lot of narcissistic sociopaths do. Pearl boards don't let you out when you've not shown any remorse. Yeah.

They don't like to do that. And I don't think this guy's really capable. Now, he might be able to fake it. Yeah, he might. But he sure as hell didn't try at any point during the trial. So now maybe he'll have 20 years to think about it and say, you know what? Maybe I should conjure up a tear. Yeah.

Maybe I should change the way I'm handling this. But I know you and I feel the same way. And I'm assuming everybody listening probably feels the same way as well. And that's hoping that the parole board sees through this guy. If he does happen to change his ways and kind of put on an act. But that's it. Gibbs, that's the case of, yes, Isa. I mean, it's one of those to me that, again, is so heartbreaking and so scary because you're talking about the killing of a spouse, the person that you're

supposed to love. At some point, you did. Sure. Right. Yeah. Or you wouldn't have gotten married. I get it. Things go downhill in marriages. It happens all the time. People get divorced. People get divorced. Yeah. But when you're talking about a guy like Yaz and the ego that he had, most likely the narcissistic sociopath that he is, I just don't think he could live with not getting his way. And his way was, I can get it all. Yeah. If I do this. And I'm so smart that I'll get away with it. Right. Nobody's smarter than me. Cops aren't going to be able to figure this. out. He wanted that playboy life. He wanted to definitely do what he want when he want it without having to answer to anybody. But here's the thing. And I'm not saying this is right either, but if the marriage was

at a place where it should end, and there are times when that has to happen, sure there is. Are you telling me that he still could not have led the life he wanted to? Yes, I get it. Maybe he's, He's going to have to pay alimony. He's going to have to pay child support. Sure. He's still going to have a bunch of money. He's a doctor. That's the part I just don't get.

Yeah. I mean, he had a good career. He had the businesses. The businesses that were going well. Clearly, if they could funnel two million dollars out. They were making money. You know, he could have made arrangements and paid her out, you know. So why kill somebody when you could have just ended it, still be around?

doing your thing and she could be with her kids and you could be with your kids yeah exactly now i don't think he wanted to i don't think he cared about them no personally but anyway that's just you know for me it's hard to wrap my head around that you know i get it somebody is threatening you they come after you and you're defending yourself and you kill somebody yeah i get those that that's going to happen every now. Sure. I don't get these, man,

I don't want to pay alimony. I don't want to pay child support. You know what? It'd just be easier for me to kill this person.

Yeah. You know, that just, it just does not compute. I mean, think about what he did, right? I mean,

he, not only did you take away the mother of the kids, he's away. I mean, the kids lose big time. Right. It's not fair to the kids.

They grow up with her family, most like. Yeah. I mean, so, I mean, at least, you know, sounds like she had really good family and I'm sure they're great kids, you know, adults now. But the fact that he put them in that position, you know.

Is selfish. It is. The whole thing is just completely selfish. We've got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Hi. This is Deborah from central Kentucky.

I've been listening to you guys, been listening while I work alone at the Kentucky Division of Probation and Parole Office. I have several Central Kentucky small town crimes that I'd love to run by you guys to see if you're interested. One is the case of Randy Fouts, that's F-A-U-S-T, and his arson kidnapping murder crime spree in the little community of Garrid County, Kentucky. And the other one is one that's more recent. It's the David Sparks Kidnapping or Murder Case with Savannah Spurlock that's going on here in our little town of Lancaster right now. So I hope that these are some that you guys can look into and you can contact me if you want any information about either of the cases. Thank you. Well, we love that. You know, I have, you know my affinity for Central Kentucky. Go Cats. So they're located.

I'm not quite, but I'm always looking for, you know, interesting cases, small town cases, lesser known cases. So sounds interesting. You know we'll look into those. Absolutely. Absolutely, we will. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Bo Marshall. I'm from Sandpoint, Idaho. I just finished an 85th episode about Robert Hanton. Good episode.

I'm a maintenance guy at a ski resort, and I listen to 85 episodes in about two and a half weeks, maybe a little bit more, give or take. You had mentioned one of your supporters as Van Zant-N-N-N-Fey-Fort. I'm kind of an MMA guy, and Paige Van Zant happened to be born in 94. I'm just kind of curious if that might be her. That would be awesome.

She's a beast. Yeah, just love your show. I've listened to others, and I think I like you guys the most. Anyways, I'm team both Mike and Gibby, you know. Fergie, Givie, you guys are awesome together. I love your banters and how you guys just sometimes will underline, throw things out there, but you don't necessarily laugh about it, but I get it and laugh, and I don't know, just makes my day go by.

Anyways, keep your own time, too. I love you guys. Bye. Well, it is her, and we had a private match and I kicked her ass. That's how I know you're lying. First of all, we don't know if it is her. And second of all, she would destroy you. Hey.

Have you watched some of these women's MMA matches? I wouldn't fight none of them. No. I wouldn't fight the ring girls. Man, they're in good shape too. No, but in all seriousness, these girls can fight. Whether you like it or not, some people don't like the fact that, you know, women are in MMA.

Oh, really? Or should be, you know, punching each other in face. Anybody wants to be in there should be in there. But man, they are serious badasses. And they put in the work, they train. They do, man. It's unbelievable. So I don't know if it's her or not.

I still took her. It'd be cool if it was. I guarantee you couldn't. I put her in the death grip. You can barely breathe, first of all, right now. Yeah. But I got her in the death grip. The Spock death grip.

Even at 100% she would clean your clock. Yeah. No doubt about it. Hey, nobody else needs to know about this. Keep it on the down low. You mean except for all the... Don't let it get out to her. Tons and tons of people that are listening.

Yeah. Hey, Mike and I can give you. My name's Natalia and I'm a huge fan. I started a podcast back in August and I'm officially caught up. I'm from Tracy, California, which may sound familiar because that's where the murder of Sandra Cantu by Melissa Heckelby happened. And I'm the same age as Sandra, and when she was murdered, I was also nine, which made my parents finding my first phone out of fear.

That murder rattled the entire town, and it still does. But on a letter note, I just wanted to call because I want to tell you guys that I love your podcast, and I will continue to listen on. So keep your own time ticking. Bye, guys. So Gibbs, we did that case, Melissa Huckabee, the murder of Sandra Cantu, very early on. We did. It was rough on me, man.

And neither one of us has forgotten that case. No. I think I don't know if it is the most, but it's definitely up there in the cases that will never leave us category. Absolutely. You know, some cases you forget the details. You forget how gruesome things were. I can remember that and it's almost like I can't wipe it from memory.

No, I remember the trailer park to everything. It was brutal. It definitely was. We had mail bag. Yeah. Someone, but unfortunately I don't know who sent you a shirt that says, I paused my true crime podcast to be here. Yeah.

Well, thank you. It was addressed to give me. Actually, everything I think was addressed to you. Lottie sent a bunch of, pretty much a huge goody bag of Halloween candy and other stuff. Norel Peterson, new Patreon supporter, sent in a bunch of goodies from Australia. including some very cool police patches. Yeah, appreciate that. So we appreciate all of that.

All right, buddy, we gotta get out of here. We do. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.