True Crime with Kimbyr - Mom of 3 Murdered on Hiking Trail in Broad Daylight! The Case of Kathleen Loreck Part 3

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

As Kimbyrleigha continues to weave together the facts, True Crime with Kimbyr examines the role that environmental settings and routine habits may play in making individuals vulnerable to danger. How can two seemingly ordinary trail walks lead to such horrifying outcomes? With both cases still unresolved, viewers are left to ponder if there is a predator lurking in plain sight, ready to strike when least expected. Join us as we seek answers and uncover more shocking details behind these tragic disappearances. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's a very common one. That bridge is known for things like this to happen. So police thought that this made sense, that he chose this way out because of his previous charges and then this murder. However, John's family, who were still in the middle of grieving his death, were not convinced. John's father David said that, yes, his son had mental health issues,

but that was no reason to link him to the crime. He said, quote, to take these four or five coincidental facts and link them together and make so much out of it, I think, is irresponsible. As far as tarnishing the reputation of a young man that has already had a tarnished reputation is unthinkable and unconscionable. End quote. His family was not happy. John wasn't there to defend himself.

And considering their grief, it's understandable that they would be upset and they wanted to stand up for him. Well, there's one way to rule him out. DNA. And they conveniently have John's body at the morgue. If he's not their guy, they will know soon enough. However, even though they want to be sensitive with John's family, when they're back at the station, several eyewitnesses were shown a photo lineup

that included a picture of John, and they pick him out as the man that was acting strange on the trail the same day Kathy was killed. At this point, they were pretty much running John's DNA as a formality, just as another administrative step in this murder investigation that they feel like they've already solved. I say that because the police released John's name to the media. Newspapers were running headlines with ones like this.

Mentally ill man, focus of probe. And there was even a map on the front page showing where John lived. And it didn't take long for a bunch of media outlets to grab onto the story. And the news vans were up and down John's family's suburban street. But David, he kept professing his son's innocence. However, police still had that search warrant. And they took John's car, they took David's computer, and they even took a washing machine from the premises to aid in this investigation. David even told them, I'll take a polygraph. My son didn't do this. And he passed, saying he knew his son was home during the time frame that police say that Kathy went out on that trail.

John's father was a member of the Contra Costa chapter of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. And he came down hard and criticized the Concord Police Department for confirming that his son, was the focus of their investigation before they even got the DNA results back. But on the other hand, they wanted to make the public aware of the risk or lack thereof. So they were weighing all of those things

when they released his name. They had John's background in mind. To think that he had been arrested four times in the past 10 years for drunk driving to the attack on the judge on November 15th, 1997. I mean, this man was handcuffed in custody

and he became angry when he was talking to his lawyer about his plea deal, a sheriff's deputy in that court room that day said he heard John yell, quote, I'm going to kill him. That mother F.R. is going to die. End quote. And this was being said as the Superior Court judge, William Cullen walked into the room. And then John jumped towards him and attempted to put his hands around his neck or put his handcuffs around him to choke him. But that deputy tackled him,

preventing him from doing that. This wasn't the first time that John's dad came to his defense. Throughout the 90s when John was getting in trouble, David and other family members wrote letters to the court saying that John's condition was treatable, and that, quote, he has a family here in Concord, able and willing to support him, and he has a good job to challenge him, end quote. But John didn't stay out of trouble. He only got into more of it. More letters from David were sent to the court begging them to take him into custody and help his son. David wanted them to give him mental health treatment, he even offered to pay for them to commit him to a psychiatric hospital, saying, quote, without something like this, John may spend years in the system at great expense

and suffering ever increasingly psychiatric damage to himself, end quote. So ultimately, judges did give orders for John to get treatment as a condition of his probation, but court records show he would never stay at any of these inpatient programs. He would just check himself out. The waiting game was hard on everyone, but they had no choice. They had to see if John's DNA matched. Meanwhile, Kathy was laid to rest May 21, 2003 at Holy Cross Cemetery with a service at 11 a.m. at Holy Rosary Church in Antioch. Weeks were going by. There were no updates to provide, no other leads coming in. They were just waiting to confirm John's DNA. And a month later, that day finally came. The results revealed that John Kaler's DNA

was not a match for the DNA found on Kathy's body. John was not their killer, and that is unreal. Yet the media, remember the media? They had ran so many stories that seemed to confirm he was their man. And I see this so much nowadays. With the Brian Coburger trial, for instance, there are full-on shows implicating this man without a trial being carried out.

And whatever the outcome is, you're still innocent until proven guilty. So I think it's a slippery slope, announcing things before they're truly confirmed. And of course, John's family wants an apology. And this revelation was a huge blow to investigators. They had been so confident that this was their man. Their decision to release his name to the public

before those DNA results were in only served one purpose. It just further traumatized John's family while they were grieving his death. David said, quote, they shouldn't be releasing half facts, half truths, an undeveloped evidence, end quote. He told the media he was pursuing new legislation that would protect families and persons of interest

in criminal cases. He made note that even though the DNA results did not show a genetic match, police were not out there publicly ruling out his son. It was only after David went on TV himself to announce it that authorities finally came out and said there was no match. However, they were still calling John Kaler a person of interest.

By June 12th, newspapers were reporting that the DNA test failed to confirm John was linked to Kathy's murder. One article read, preliminary results examined by the crime lab did not match any samples given to the lab to compare, including one that got directly from John's deceased remains. However, the police stated, we are not able to conclusively include or exclude any individual from this investigation, end quote. So they're just covering their bases. But was John's self-inflicted death really just a coincidence? If he didn't kill Kathy, maybe he came across her body, or maybe he witnessed the attack.

Perhaps that guilt just ate at him until he felt like he had no choice with to end his life. No one really knows what happens during those last hours of John's life. However, it is a bitter consolation for his family to know for certain that he's not a murderer. The investigators were back at zero, and in a bold move, John Kaler's family, they offer their own $5,000 reward to anyone with information about Kathy's case that can lead to arrest because they wanted to offer this money, hoping that it would lead to information that would clear their son once and for all. I don't blame them. And it's a very generous act as well. But what would really clear his name was finding someone else. And there just wasn't anyone. But the police kept on fighting to get

justice for Kathy and her family. They took DNA samples from at least 50 different men and still there were no connections. They were interviewing people every single day. Then finally, four months after Kathy's murdered, they get a break. It's September at the time. And they had spoken to a witness back in the early days when the case was unfolding. They talked to this man about nine days after the murder, and he had told them that he was on the trail that day, and he talked to a man while he was riding by on his bike.

He stopped, he had a chat, and they smoked a cigarette together. So this was nine days after, and he offers to take the police to the exact spot where he had been standing. It was only 200 feet away from where Kathy was found. And when the police arrived at the location, they were looking around for clues and keep in mind, I keep saying this, but like a week after Kathy's murder. The prospect of any reliable evidence was slim to none.

But they looked down and on the pavement, they saw two cigarette butts exactly where this man said they would be and he's like, that's probably them. Now, they definitely were not in pristine condition, but this is all they had. So they took the cigarette butts in for testing, And they were not hopeful because there had been sun, there had been rain and dirt. They didn't think they were going to have any evidence on them, much less a reliable DNA profile.

But they had these tests sent in. They are just now getting the test back four months later. They're getting that DNA back to see if anything transpired from it, right? The cigarette butts held a full DNA profile. So right away, they ordered that profile to be compared to the DNA taken from Kathy's body. another waiting game, but this is all they have. More and more time was going by, and they really wanted to be able to either move on

or look further into the right person. So those four months, they had to wait, and they finally get those results. The DNA on the cigarette butts were a match to the DNA on Kathy. The man that shared that cigarette with that witness was the man who killed Kathy. But it was so frustrating,

because there was a problem. So they know they have the DNA of the killer and they know it's a man, but they have no idea who he is. And that would be so hard to deal with because you know he exists, but you have almost nothing to find him except to go back to the witness and ask,

do you remember anything specific about this man? Anything at all? The witness is racking his brain, trying to remember anything that stood out and he says something that the killer had told him he worked at a telemarketing company, and Walnut Creek. Well, Walnut Creek is only 13 minutes away from the crime scene. So police look into that lead and they realize there's only one telemarketing company operating in that area called Creative Marketing Inc.

So they visit their offices and they're armed with the composite sketches. Remember those? Because that's all they had. They didn't know if this was John Kaler and he happened to be on the trail and that's who the sketch was or if they actually had a sketch of the killer. Workers at the company say they immediately recognize the face in those sketches as belonging to one of their coworkers, a 38-year-old man named Robert Ward Frazier. Finally, after months of running around in circles, it seems like something is falling into place, but his manager tells them, Robert, he stopped coming into work in May, less than a week after Kathy's body was found. Wow. This is another one of those leads with something that seems so much more than just a coincidence. So detectives are provided with Robert's last known

address. And when they knock on the door, once again, not greeted by a man, they're greeted by a woman who says she is his ex-girlfriend. Just like his manager had said, she told him Robert skipped town a while ago. She thought that maybe he could be back in the Midwest because that's where he's from, but she didn't know for sure. Before they leave the house, they ask Robert's ex-girlfriend for anything that might still have his DNA on it, and she gives them his toothbrush, and that is But you know the drill, it would take weeks before a DNA profile or potential match would come back. And in the meantime, the police headed off to try to find their man. They ran his information, and they find out there's a warrant out for his arrest. And it's all the way in Lake County, Indiana.

Here's that information. It says he's white. He's 5-11. He's 190 pounds. Sounds just like that eyewitness description of the man acting strange on the trail. His hair is also medium and length in this picture. It says his residence is at 12920, Night Street and Cedar Lake Indiana, and that he has had nine arrests and has a tattoo of a dragon on his upper left arm. But does he resemble the sketches? I don't know. Similar.

Yes. Maybe. I'm not sure. But either way, they call over to Lake City and they couldn't believe their luck when they discovered that Robert had been arrested on unrelated charges when he tried to come back into Indiana. That's where he was living before making his way. out to California. He was apparently on probation before he left because of battery and a drug-related charge. So they put out a warrant for his arrest when he didn't show up for his scheduled probation check-ins. Even better, he was still in their custody. He had been pulled over on a traffic

infraction when he got back in town. While the Concord detectives didn't waste any time. That afternoon, the detectives flew over there to chat with Robert. Now take a look at this man. What are your initial thoughts? Mine were wow. he's big, or he looks big in this video, and I do have some footage from this interview to show you. So police sat down with their suspect, and actually, he's completely unfazed by their questions. He is very relaxed. Look at his demeanor here. He's got his leg up.

He's leaning on the table. He's smiling. He even cracked jokes and lounged in his chair as if he didn't have a care in the world. This doesn't look like a man concerned about being connected to a murder. He's shaking Detective Penny's hands. No problem. They asked him the places he's lived before and he mentions that he used to live in Tinley Park, Illinois, and before that, Chicago. He used to live in Tinley Park in Illinois. And before that, Chicago. And when they ask him, if he owns a pair of sunglasses, he is laughing at his own joke. He's like, okay, yeah, I had sunglasses. I lived in California. Bingo. They already know that. They already know that he was in Walnut Creek, but they wanted to hear him say,

lived in California and coming out of his own mouth. Yeah, okay. I had sunglasses. I lived in California, man. Once they confirmed he lived close by the area where Kathy was found murdered, they asked him, did you hear about Kathy's murder when you were back working in California? And he actually admitted that he did see something about it on TV. After that, they tell him that someone saw him on the trail and that he matched their sketches.

And then he skipped town after her murder. So he admits something. He said, yeah, I smoked a couple of cigarettes with some guy. So they asked him how long he thinks he was out there during that time frame, which by the way, is the time frame that Kathy was there. And he said, well, talking to that guy on the trail, hmm, about a half hour or so, maybe like 30 minutes at least. The witness had said it was a quick chat.

Nevertheless, Robert has admitted to being on the same trail at the same time Kathy was there, and he smoked cigarettes. Two things that match up. I smoked a couple of cigarettes with her. I think they were margaret. Okay. So how long do you think you're up there on the telephone? Well, talking to him, I must have talked to him for like a half hour.

Or more. But then, they asked him if you remembered what Kathy looked like, if he could remember seeing her picture on TV. And he said he did remember. He said, she had long hair. It looked like it could have been brown. And he formed it as a question. kind of waiting for them to confirm.

But then he said that she had freckles. Well, all the pictures that have shown you don't show any freckles on Kathy's face. But what's shocking to detectives is that Kathy does have freckles, but only someone that is intimately involved with her would know because they are on her chest between her boobs. None of the pictures shown in the media show any of these freckles,

yet this man knows she has them, and that is so, creepy. Listen to him. You've ever seen your picture on TV? What did she look like? She had long hair. It looked like brown. He guesses that's what she looked like? Well, it's a good guess, isn't it?

The only way Robert would have known this information is if he would have seen Kathy bare-chested recently, which is just disgusting and chilling. When detectives hear about the freckles, they're pretty certain that Robert is their man. What he doesn't know is that they already have 100% confirmation. that he was there at least 200 feet from where Kathy was found because they've got his DNA on that cigarette.

When they tell him this fact, he admits it again. Yeah, I know I was out there, but I didn't do this murder. And he's smiling as he says no. Well, okay, I was out there. I didn't do this murder, though. You're saying he didn't do the hole. So one of the detectives is like, did you happen to see anyone commit this crime? Remember, they don't have the results back

from comparing the DNA on the two, toothbrush to the DNA found on Kathy's body. They're still probing. What if he saw John Kaler on the trail, for instance? But Robert says no, that he didn't see anyone do it either. So they keep going asking him if he has any idea who would have done this. What he says is interesting. He tells them, no, I don't even have any idea why someone would do something like this.

And at that point, they had only told him about her being murdered. You didn't see anybody who committed this crime? No, I didn't see it either. Okay. You have no idea who would have done this? The idea why someone would do something like that. And he acted like he was stunned that someone would be so evil. Then they add that she was forced in intercourse as well,

and he seems even more shocked. He's like, this lady was raped. And Detective Finney confirms by saying yes, to which Robert replies, in a seemingly concerned manner, quote, Oh, well, now I know I didn't do it. And then he laughs nervously and says, I know I didn't do it before. Well, good catch.

No, I know I didn't for it. He acted like he would never do such a thing. Almost faking empathy, because it definitely seemed fake. His body language wasn't adding up. And that's when detectives reveal that they have DNA, that they collected from the crime scene, and it was on her body and the murder weapon. Robert seems to have a reason why his DNA might be there.

He was like, well, you know what? I had to take a pee when I was on the trail. on the trail. And he's like, I took a whiz out in the bushes. So that's about it. So what this guy is trying to say is that he inadvertently gave the victim a golden shower. And that's why his DNA was on her. He just happened to accidentally pick the exact spot that a killer had not only violated her, but sodomized her. We're talking, took his time to force her to do the most unspeakably invasive and violating acts before taking her life in such a horrific manner. But he claims, no, I'm not the guy that that, I just had a full bladder and I picked the wrong spot to relieve myself.

I took a waste out by the bushes nearby of that thing. It's about it. Detectives are not buying it. It didn't make any sense. A urine is not semen. So they asked him, well, what bushes was it that you peed in? And he says, oh, they were bushes near where there's a hole in the fence and that he went down there to the same place where he admits they showed on television as being in the crime

scene. Wow. He says, oh, I didn't want to mention it until now because he didn't want to place himself near a murder scene for just innocently peeing. So then they ask him, well, did you see anyone else down there? And he said, no. So he's not even trying to implicate anyone else. He's literally describing the area where Kathy's body had been dragged before she was killed. It's just too much. That's the only thing that could place me anywhere near that... Which is... Well, there's bushes right near, there was a hole in the fence, and I went down there. It just like it showed on that thing on TV, and I didn't mention that until now, but I did.

That's right. Did you see anybody down there? No. But they're still not getting him to confess. So Finney has an idea. He decides to use shock value. He looks for one of the worst pictures of Kathy from that crime scene. And he slaps it down on the table in front of Robert while using a very aggressive tone.

And he says, quote, what did she do to make you do that? End quote. And Robert looks at it for a second. And he says, oh my God, I don't want to see that. Finney is like, yeah, I know you don't. As if he doesn't want to face what he did. And Finney repeats it. He's like, what did she have to do to make you do that?

And Robert's like, I didn't do that. And I mean, he does kind of sound convincing. What did she do to you to make you do that? Oh, my God, I don't want to see that. I know you don't. What did she do to make you want to do that? I didn't do that. If you were innocent, how would you sound?

He hands the picture back to the detective, and he says he has nothing to do with that. He says, I didn't rape or murder anyone, and I'm staying to that. And as far as anything else goes, I mean any further questions after this is going to have to go through a lawyer because this is getting too scary. It is scary. They know that he's their man. They know he killed Kathy. I'm saying to that as far as any other things go, I mean, any further questions after this have to go through a lawyer because it's getting too scary.

Well, until he gets that lawyer, he is under arrest. Detective Finney tells him that. But you know what? He's already been locked up, so he kind of scoffs like, duh. That's how you found me. But Finney says, Robert, I have a warrant here for your arrest from the state of California. And Robert butts in, he's like, I already have one. But Finney interrupts and says, it's for capital murder.

And that's when Robert kind of backs down and just goes, all right. They also show him a search warrant for his blood from the state of Indiana. And he's still laughing. He's like, okay, go look for it. All right, go look for it. They send in a nurse to take two vials from him right there in that small interrogation room. Now they have concrete DNA evidence from him, and when that is tested against the toothbrush and the cigarette butts.

It's a match. Robert was Kathy's killer. And he was charged with forced intercourse sodomy and first-degree murder. The death penalty was on the table. He was facing death or life in prison without the possibility of parole. May 2006, he stands trial. Deputy District Attorney John Cope is the prosecutor, and the defense attorney is Eric Quant.

Kathy's family was in the courtroom. And Robert wasn't showing any emotions. He was just sitting there, listening to the prosecutor's opening statement. The attorney talks about how Kathy was struck with an amazing amount of force. She was thrashing around. Her fists were clenched, and there was large pools of blood, and it was on her face, and her hair was matted with blood. There were many pictures displayed for the jury.

One was of this metal fence rod. The prosecutor said, quote, this bar has the defendant's DNA on the handle, end quote. And he told the jury that the victim can't speak So the evidence will speak for her. They presented witnesses who saw Robert on that trail. He was the one trying to distract people by pointing to things in the canal. The canal right near where Kathy was pulled into the pushets.

One witness said that Robert was talking about tadpoles. Another said he was making comments about employee badges. And they also heard from the man who smoked a cigarette with him. Can you imagine if he hadn't told that man that he worked as a telemarketer? If he hadn't spoken up, they may not have been able to find Robert at all. The prosecution believes that he came there looking for his sexual desires to be met. He saw Kathy walking down that trail on her phone, and he chose her because there was probably no one coming in either direction on the path at that time,

and she was distracted. By that time, he had already grabbed the metal fence rod, and he was waiting for the right moment, hiding in those bushes when you struck her with great force, So much so her head split open, and she began bleeding as she fell to the ground. Then he quickly grabbed her legs and dragged her from the trail down into the ravine where he violated her. He had his way with her in every way he could before striking her a number of times in the head until her skull cracked. Then he left her there to die. Well, Robert's defense attorney wanted to point out to the jurors that they would be seeing a number of graphic photos, but that they shouldn't let their emotions cloud their judgment.

and that there's no way that the prosecutors would be able to prove the charges of forced intercourse and sodomy because the victim's body showed no signs of bruising. There was semen in places, you know, but yeah, good argument, I guess. Nice try. The trial lasted a whole month. The defense's argument was that Robert was homeless at the time, and he was just walking on the trail like everyone else until you heard Kathy's rude comments about the homeless problem in that area. And that's when Robert became enraged

and in an instant he just went off and snapped. He said this crime is a rash, impulsive, unplanned, an unsophisticated attack and that it wasn't premeditated. He was hoping to get Robert a lesser sentence. Since he knew he couldn't deny his DNA was there, but sir, seaman, that's all I'm gonna say. The prosecution made their closing argument saying

that Kathy would never be here to tell how much she begged or how much she cried. And honestly, I think about those last moments. Did she say something like, I'm a mom? Please don't kill me. Or was she even conscious after the attack? We will never know. The defense admitted that Robert attacked her on that trail,

but that he only did it out of rage, that he didn't go there to hurt anyone. Look, he had conversations, civilized conversations with other people. He only dragged her away to conceal her, not to violate her. It was only after he got her down there that he decided to go further and do those other actions. He said it's reasonable to believe that the sex happened second. And he said this to try to get the death penalty taken off the table saying that it wasn't a planned attack.

Wouldn't that be necrophilia? The jury was left to deliberate. It took the eight woman four-man jury less than a day to come up with a verdict. Guilty on all accounts. But now they had to decide his sentence. Would it be life or death? Kathy's son Eric thanked the judge and the jury. He said we're so happy for this outcome.

Although nothing will bring their mom back, it could relax a little knowing that this person was going to be behind bars, but she was going to be missed and they loved her so much. All 42-year-old Robert Frazier did was rest his head in his hands. As the verdict was read,

he did not show any emotions. When the time came for Robert to be sentenced for his horrific crime, his defense team provided some insight into his childhood. They were attempting to reduce his culpability. Not much is known about Robert's earlier years, however. It was revealed that he was a child of two teenage parents.

And apparently, when he was young, he was the victim of physical, emotional, and sexual incidents himself. He eventually started to use drugs, and allegedly he was addicted to crack cocaine and alcohol, and dabbled with sniffing gasoline to get high. His defense team also revealed that he had multiple... mental ailments, including organic brain dysfunction, attention deficit disorder, and bipolar. But the defense attorney said, he's not the worst of the worst. He's just mentally ill. I'd have to say he's pretty bad.

He's one of the worst. But the prosecutor urged the judge to choose death for Robert saying, quote, frankly, he's earned it, end quote, and I agree. Ultimately, the story of Robert's traumatic childhood was not enough to negate it. how gruesome and senseless Kathy's murder was. He was sentenced to the harshest punishment possible in America, which is death. After the sentencing was read by the judge, Robert went off on the prosecution.

He said that nothing he told the jurors reflected truth whatsoever, and he went on to complain about all of the negative stories about him in the media saying that they were biased. He said, now I'm expected to show remorse for crimes that I didn't commit. And he warned the judge not to censor an innocent man to death row.

The jurors hugged Kathy's family after the sentence came down. They recommended death and they got it. Kathy's brother William said that they were satisfied with the verdict. But the justice wasn't truly served until Robert was dead. And William was trying not to lose it because sadly, Kathy's dad had just died just before sentencing. And William said that he died of a broken heart. He was 84 years old. And that would be a lot for anyone.

But a father at that age, it was just too much. William did thank the prosecution saying that you will never know how much you did for his family. Robert is on death row in San Quentin. And this story is truly the stuff of nightmares. It's terrifying that we live in a world where a woman cannot go out in the middle of the day on a busy walking trail without the fear of getting violated and violently killed for her body so that a man can have a few minutes of pleasure. in exchange for a lifetime of pain for her loved ones.

This horrific crime occurred two decades ago, and it's sad to think that in many ways nothing has changed. Women still live in fear of the shadows in the woods, and women like Rachel Moran, the mom of five, had just succumbed to the same fate as Kathy did this month. I hope they find the person that did that to her, so they can bring justice like they have for Kathy's family. I thank all of you for being here with me today.

Thank you so much for giving Kathy's family your time, and your attention, please share this video with a friend if you think it could help them or if they're interested in true crime like you are.