True Crime with Kimbyr - Part 1: 3-Year-Old Witnessed His Mother's Murder & Helped Solve The Case

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

In this heartbreaking episode of True Crime with Kimbyr, the shocking murder of 26-year-old single mother Charlene Puffenbarger unfolds inside a quiet Ohio apartment complex. When neighbors notice the dependable mom hasn’t opened her door one freezing morning, they discover her two toddlers trapped inside with her lifeless body. Evidence suggests the killer was someone Charlene may have trusted—and a chilling moment when her three-year-old points at a police officer raises haunting questions. Through careful research and compassion, True Crime with Kimbyr explores the life Charlene built for her boys and the disturbing mystery surrounding the night she was killed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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A single mom, two little boys, lights on at the crack of dawn every morning without fail, someone that you can always count on. But one freezing winter morning, you knock on her door and there's nothing. No answer, no footsteps, no just a minute, no sound at all. Just a deadbolted door that won't. budge and a bad feeling that you can't shake. Where is she? And more concerning, where are her kids?

She has two little boys, a two-year-old and a three-year-old. You call out and you hear a tiny voice on the other side of that door and you realize it's one of her toddlers, but where's their mom? You knock until you finally coax the three-year-old to turn the deadbolt. And when he finally does, you step inside and you're faced with the horror of your neighbor lying on the couch lifeless. Her two little boys have been trapped in that apartment with her body all night long. Hi everyone, welcome back to my channel,

and if you have never been here before, I am Kimberlea. It's nice to finally meet you. It was a cold January morning in Twinsburg, Ohio, in the Pinewood Gardens apartments. Most people were just starting their day, getting their kids ready for school, heading to work that Monday morning.

and one person who is always up early is Charlene Puffenbarger. Her neighbor and friend Michelle Smythermans knew that about Charlene. She was dependable, single mom to two little boys and also a nanny, to many of the other kids in the apartment complex. The type of woman who somehow managed to be awake, get dressed, and do all the things that mom needs to do in the morning without hitting snooze. So when Michelle got a knock on her door that morning from another neighbor, Yvette Carter, saying that Charlene was not home or not answering her door,

Yvette was worried because she was dropping her kids off to be watched by Charlene like she did every workday. And Charlene wasn't answering. That's when Michelle jumped into action. Michelle walks over to her friend Charlene's door with Yvette and her children, and they knock together. And there's no answer. It's not just odd.

It's wrong. Michelle knocks again and she's listening. And there's nothing. No footsteps, no shud. shuffling, no sleepy kid voices. And ever since Michelle knew Charlene, she had known her to be an early riser. By now, she should be up for sure.

She should be moving around, maybe getting her boys fed breakfast, watching one of the other neighborhood kids as their daycare provider. But the door stays closed. The apartment stays silent. That feeling, and you know the one in your stomach that just drops before your brain can't even explain why. That was what hit Michelle.

This isn't a she must be sleeping in kind of scenario. It's not that kind of silence. And you may have thought, well, why doesn't Michelle just call Charlene? Well, unfortunately, Charlene didn't have a phone in her apartment. This was a woman who was trying her very best to make ends meet. Everyone that meant anything to Charlene was always in her orbit so she didn't need a phone. It wasn't a necessity in her life. Michelle doesn't walk away. She doesn't shrug it off. She does what a good friend does. She goes to get help. While Yvette waits, Michelle heads over to her brother Mitchell's apartment. He lives in the very same complex.

They both know Charlene. They both know her boys. Three-year-old Dustin and two-year-old Derek. When Michelle tells her brother that something is wrong, he doesn't hesitate. He believes her. So now it's both of them walking back to Charlene's door trying to shake off that creepy feeling of dread. They're trying to think practical thoughts. Maybe she's in the shower.

Maybe for once in her life she did oversleep. Maybe she's just keeping her kids busy. Maybe, maybe. That's what we all want to go to. But they reach for the door and Mitchell tries the handle and it doesn't budge. They realize the door is not just locked. It's deadbolted. Mitchell calls through the door and he tries to get Charlene's attention, but there's nothing.

And then faintly he realizes that he hears a voice. It's three-year-old Dustin. on the other side of that door. Somehow, Yvette manages to coax this little boy to undo a dead bolt. That grown-up adults can't even get past from the outside, of course. And here are these tiny hands on the lock

that was never meant to be his responsibility. And then the bolt slides. Yvette opens the door. She and Mitchell step inside. And with Yvette in the front, standing in Charlene's living room, what she sees stops her, cold. It's Charlene. She's lying on one of the living room couches, and at first glance,

it could look like she's asleep, but as they moved closer, they knew she wasn't sleeping. There was a blanket over her head and her body, and it's covered in blood. They didn't need any special training or experience to know that this is not a medical emergency. It's not a fainting spell. It's not a fall. This is a crime scene. In that moment, Mitchell has to be make an impossible snap decision. He doesn't have the luxury of breaking down or freezing in horror. There's two little boys there. He picks them up and he carries them out of that apartment away from the couch and away from their mother's body. How long had she been like this? How long had these poor boys been inside that small apartment with their mother's dead body? Little Dustin says,

we couldn't wake mommy and it was heartbreaking. Mitchell gets them to safety first. Only then does he call for help? The call that goes in to the Twinsberg Township Police Department and the Summit County Investigators Office is labeled as an unknown injury. That's the language on paper. That's what the system relays to local patrol. But when the first officer arrives,

it only takes him a second to realize there is nothing unknown about this. Charlene is clearly deceased. Her face is stained with blood. There is a belt around her neck. and defensive wounds. They're on her hands and her arms. She fought for her life.

At this point, all anyone knows is that something terrible has happened behind that door. And these two little boys just lived through a night that no child should ever have to witness. Before we talk about what happened inside the apartment, we need to talk about the woman who lived there. Charlene K. Puffenbarger. She came into the world on August 16th of 1965

in Cleveland, Ohio. And from the very beginning, she was loved by her parents, Phyllis, and Charles so much. She was named after her father, and they were overjoyed when their daughter was born. She would be their only daughter, and this wasn't just, we had a baby, and it wasn't that kind of happy. It was the kind of proud joy where you start imagining everything, their birthday parties, their first school trip, every milestone before they ever happened. And at home, Charlene wasn't the only child for long. Her brother, Kenneth, came along five years later. and their bond wasn't just the whole like, yeah, we get along sometimes because we're siblings.

They were loving and Ken was so protective. It was his job to look out for a sister. He was the one making sure that she felt safe, the one who would step in if anybody was giving her a hard time. The one who was always on her side. They shared the kind of sibling relationship where jokes stack up over the years where you can read each other's moods with a single look. And when people say their bond was unbreakable, it was. wasn't just a saying. That's how they lived and they shared so many memories growing up together in Twinsburg, Ohio. So I think it's just fitting for me to tell you a little bit more about

Twinsburg. I like going to new places. And this place is a little bit quirky, but in the best way. If you've ever heard of Twinsburg, then you know that it's known for Twin Days. And this festival is about coming together and celebrating twins. And growing up there meant that once a year, your little town turned into the surreal little universe of matching faces, identical outfits, and siblings everywhere. It's the kind of small town backdrop that makes childhood feel a little bit more magical, like the world is smaller and closer than it really is. But there's more to Twinsberg than its name and an annual festival. It's a very close-knit community of only 6,000 people when Charlene was a kid.

Now there's about 19,000, which is still small. So you can only imagine what it was like in the 70s. We're talking about a place where you really did recognize most of the faces you saw at the grocery store or at the Friday night football game. A huge part of life revolved around work at the Chrysler stamping plant opened in 1957 or the one that Ford owned. It was one of the largest automotive plants in the country and a major employer for people who lived in Twinsburg. A lot of families had at least one person on shifts at an automotive factory or commuting to other industrial jobs in Cleveland or in Akron. Other people worked in schools at local shops, set banks, diners, or small professional offices. There were still people tied to farm life and greenhouse work

on the edges of town, especially where the older farms hadn't been carved up into subdivisions yet. Some streets were still half finished with patchy sidewalks and gravel shoulders and trees that haven't grown in yet. For fun, kids like Charlene leaned hard into school and community life. high school sports, band events, and things like Girl Scouts. Now, the Twinsburg Twin Festival didn't even happen until 1976, and that quickly did become a very big deal there. Growing up, Charlene wasn't really handed that neat linear storybook script. Like many young women, she wanted to find her Prince Charming, and she thought she had

when she met Alan Redmond. They just clicked. They were both in their early 20s, and they had a lot of fun together. And soon, there was a baby boy on the way. But even before little Dustin got there in June of 1988, things between Charlene and Allen went downhill. She decided to leave. Even if it meant that she had to care for Dustin all on her own at 23 years old,

which she did with the help of her mother, she was going to leave. And then she met Willard McCarley. He was a single dad. And this seemed more promising. He understood her situation, having an ex and a baby, and they were hanging out all the time and eventually started dating. Phyllis, her mom, liked Willard. He was fun.

He was dedicated to Charlene and treated Dustin like he was his own child. Phyllis remembered a date that Willard took Charlene on for her birthday, August 16th, and she came back just glowing. Phyllis knew how much she liked Willard. It was obvious. Charlene's mother also knew that Charlene wasn't interested in something casual. She wanted a real commitment and a family and more kids, a husband, the house, the things that most of us want. Willard seemed to want those things too.

Until Charlene got pregnant, it's like a broken record. Maybe Willard was content with them both having one child each from previous relationships, and both their kids were still very young. Willard's son was only six, and Charlene's little boy, Dustin, was only over two months old. That is still so little. It was probably a lot at once. And now Charlene was going to have two children less than a year apart. And ironically, they call those things.

type of babies that close together, Irish twins. And yes, I know, I looked it up and I realized that Irish twins used to be derogatory. But when siblings were born that close together, that's what they were commonly called. I have a family member who has two girls that are like that, and I think it's absolutely awesome. They're so close, and that's how Dustin and little Derek were. Derek arrived May of 1989. They were so close, they were almost like twins, really. But the bad news is, it was a little too much for Willard. And he wasn't. interested in sticking around, so unfortunately, Charlene was yet again a single mother. Now, luckily, her mom was there for her, helping her with everything.

But eventually, Charlene was able to get approved for an apartment of her own at Pinewood Gardens, which was a public housing complex with affordable rentals for low-income families. There were a lot of other single moms living there, and she bonded with several of her neighbors right away. Eventually, Charlene began babysitting her neighbors' kids for extra cash. That way, she could be home with little Dustin and Derek, but still make an income. It was a small community, only 125 units, quiet, a place where everyone knew one another and felt safe. One resident who became one of Charlene's closest friends was Michelle Smithermans. Michelle lived in one of the buildings right across the street from Charlene's in the same complex, and they would come to each other's apartments all the time.

Charlene absolutely loved cooking, and her friends, of course, didn't mind, so she would get right in the kitchen and make her specialty. Snickerdoodle cookies, but slowing down and pausing here for a second, it was still a lot. Two boys, two fathers, one mom doing everything she could to keep their little world balanced. But Charlene can handle it. Inside that apartment, she was doing what so many moms in her position do, stretching every penny, every bag of groceries, every ounce of her energy, trying to turn barely enough into just a little bit more for her boys. She worked hard to provide for them, not just food and shelter, but love and stability and the kind of stability that mattered more than what kind of furniture you had

or how new your carpet was what pinewood gardens lacked in luxury charlene definitely made up for with the community there everyone had similar struggles they were fighting the same fight and they were there for one another when someone needed something all they had to do was knock on a neighbor's door it wasn't perfect but it was a network and in that space they tried to keep each other standing charlene was content not because this was easy, but because she had what mattered the most to her, her boys, Dustin and Derek. She was genuinely excited to watch them grow up. But now we have to remember, this woman is dead.

She never got that chance. And I hate when I learned so much about someone and realize why I'm researching their life. Because it was taken. Charlene, of all people, did not deserve this. And no one knew who would have wanted to hurt someone. like her. She was so loving, she was so giving, she really didn't have any enemies. So let me take you back to that morning that she was found. After the 911 call went out, rookie cop Eric Bryding was on patrol in that area and over the radio, he's called out to the Pinewood Gardens apartment number six

for what was referred to as, I said, an unknown injury. It's kind of a weird way to alert an officer that a person was deceased. But before he even had a chance to ask questions, the dispatcher comes back on the radio and says, Eric, this sounds bad. Hurry. And he did. Charlene lived up on the second floor. Her door was immediately to the right as soon as you got up the stairwell. Now, these were external hallways. This building was not enclosed where you would go through a main door. No, no, no. This was on the outside. All of these doors faced right outside so that anyone could come up from the street. Michelle met with the officer and explained which she and the others had discovered inside, how the door was deadbolted, how the kids were inside alone with their mom lifeless on the couch.

This was a small one-bedroom apartment, and I want to give you a visual as best as I can of what it consisted of, especially the living room area where her body was found. But I also have some crime scene photos, so that should help, and I will, of course, blur what I need to. As soon as you walk in, you're standing in the living room, which consisted of a rocking chair, a lazy boy, a coffee table, TV that was an entertainment center, and lots of toys scattered around, an etcha sketch, a toy airplane, stuffed animals, toy cars, and two couches. One was one of those old school plaid ones. I'm sure many of your grandparents had. I know my mom had one. And one of them was a velvet, dark, bluish, purple colored couch. And it was right under the window. And that was the couch that Charlene was lying on. There was a light blue

and white flower comforter that was covering Charlene's entire body, including her head when her friends first came inside. They pulled back the top. part and that's when they saw all the blood underneath her head, on her head, and soaked into the pillow underneath. Now there was a Pepsi can on top of the comforter near her legs and beside her was one of those satin school jackets. It was kind of like a baseball style jacket and it has buttons down the front and it was black with yellow stripes on the waistband. It was kind of shoved or thrown between her and the couch cushion and under her legs was a bloody pillow. It had splotches on it.

There was also a pack of cigarettes and a lighter on the windowsill. And the windows were closed. And electric guitar was at the end of the couch. And there was also what looked like a makeshift bed on the other couch, perhaps one of her children, like her three-year-old Dustin might have slept there. Not really sure. But you could see a pillow and some blankets on the couch as well. And you can hardly see it in one of the corners of this photo.

There's not quite a crib, but almost like a toddler bed in the same room. So it almost appeared as though she may, stay in the main primary bedroom and the children slept in the living room on the couches or even in bed with her. The kitchen was very clean and so was her bedroom and bathroom. Inside her closet everything was neat and nice and very organized. That's why it was odd when they found her purse on the lazy boy in the living room, just feet away from her body. It looked as though it had been rummaged through. Her social security card, her license, a bunch of paperwork was scattered around. Nothing else about the apartment looked ransacked, but they did notice

was her keys were missing, which included the key to her apartment, which meant that someone took them with them and locked the door behind them. We're going to get back to that. But now I want to focus on Charlene. She had dried blood on her face, and a black leather belt was tightly wrapped around her neck twice. She had several scalp lacerations and a number of defensive wounds on her hands. Officer Brighting was stunned. He said, he wasn't panicking, but this was his very first murder case. He told himself, you cannot F this up. You have to get this right. He immediately radioed for backup, and by the time the other officers arrived with the homicide detective Patricia Cungle to begin processing this scene, Charlene's boys were brought back over to the apartment

so that arrangements could be made for Charlene's mom to come get them. But then something shocking happened. When Dustin saw the uniform police officers, he pointed to one them and he shouted, It was him. He hurt my mommy. No one could have expected that. Not at all. Everyone was looking at this officer and then looking at each other. And, I mean, they did not think that this cop in particular had anything to do with Charlene's murder.

But of course, he had to be ruled out just in case. And he was, by the way. But what was important was something about this man. One, he was in a police uniform. And also maybe his facial features, a style of his hair, his height, his skin color, something about him he must have had in common with the killer. I mean, we're talking about a three-year-old, I understand that.

But the way that Dustin pointed and the way he said, it was him. It just really seemed too much to be some kind of accident or a coincidence. Something about that officer triggered him. Homicide detective Patricia Cungle noted that officer had on a winter police coat. She referred to it as a tuffy coat and I looked it up online just to get a visual. These are more heavy duty, they're weatherproof, and they have big gold buttons on the front. and patches on the sides and the shoulders. To Detective Cungle, the type of jacket

this officer was wearing could be very significant. While evidence was being collected, Charlene's mother was called, and they alerted her to please come to Charlene's apartment. Now, they didn't want to tell her what happened over the phone, so they were pretty vague. A neighbor was the one speaking to her, and she told her that Charlene had been in an accident

and that she was hurt but not to rush. And I mean, wouldn't Charlene being hurt weren't rushing? So right there, I would have thought that was kind of odd. like how bad was she hurt? And that's what Phyllis was wondering. She was also wondering, where were the boys? Were they okay? And all these questions were going through her mind

on that drive. And once she got there, she knew that something bad happened. There was crime scene tape up near the stairwell to Charlene's apartment. She tried to push her way through with the bystanders all around, but once she was near the yellow tape, she was told she was not permitted to pass,

even though this was Charlene's mother. They turned her way. She was begging to see her, her daughter, and that is when she was notified that Charlene was dead and that she had been murdered. And that was unbelievable. The word murder, the knowledge that Dustin and Derek, these two little boys were there while it happened, and somehow in the middle of all of this, she had to do something almost impossible. She had to pick up the phone and call her husband as well as her son, Ken, Charlene's brother, and let them know that Charlene was dead. Ken was at college at the time when

when his mom called, and all she could say was Charlene is gone. It didn't take long from him to understand what she meant. Just the sound of her voice alone spoke volumes. He rushed home thinking about her two boys the entire time. His nephews left motherless. His sister only 26 years old. Who could have done this? While the family was reeling from the news, the apartment itself became the center of a painstaking methodical search for answers.

They went over the apartment inch by inch, more than 150 separate items were collected, tagged, and stored as evidence. That's a lot. That number alone tells you how seriously they were taking this case. They understood that in a case like this, the difference between unsolved injustice might come down to something as a smell as a single fiber, a hair, a smear of blood, only visible under certain light. They were never going to get a second chance at examining this room.

They cut out sections of her carpet. They looked for hidden diluted blood evidence, and they disassembled the entire couch, taking all the cushions apart, rather than just taking photos. Every surface around Charlene's body was studied. Every angle was considered. The sink, the tub drains, they were not just glanced at. They were opened up and investigators removed the drain covers. They checked for anything that might have tried to be washed away in a panic. Traces of blood, hairs, fibers, anything that didn't belong there. Every item they touched was carefully cataloged and preserved, because once you have

Once you leave that scene and it's been cleaned, you cannot go back and recreate any of it. This was their one shot at capturing whatever the killer had left behind. And as they documented and measured and bagged each item of potential evidence, one detail kept circling back in their minds. There was no evidence of force entry. That stood out. And I told you, I was going to circle back to the fact that the killer must have taken her keys and locked the door behind them.

There was no kicked indoor, no prime marks, no broken lock, nothing that said a stranger fought their way into this apartment. It strongly suggested that whoever came through that door had either been led in by Charlene or they had the means to unlock it and relock it themselves. It was almost as though they didn't want the kids to get out, maybe so that they couldn't run to get a neighbor for help. Or was it to keep them safe? There were lots of questions, but they got some answers from Charlene's

autopsy, which was conducted by the Summit County Coroner William Cox. Charlene was fully clothed. None of her clothes were disheveled. The buttons were still intact. No garments were ripped. So this did not look like a sexually motivated crime. But what stood out was the patiqual hemorrhages, all over Charlene's face and the whites of her eyes.

And these are little tiny broken blood vessels, and they show pressure was put on her to stop her breathing. There were lacerations on her head, and there were also scrapes and abrasions to her face. There were more wounds on her forearms and the back of her hands, as though she was using them to cover her head and face as her attacker kept hitting her with something.

When the pathologist opened her mouth, he was shocked. He found a small, plastic, baggy stuffed inside that contained an unidentified white powder. He sent it to the crime lab for testing, and there was also ligature marks around her neck from where the belt had been. And even though it was tied around her neck twice. The coroner ruled this was not the cause of her death. It was due to exfixiation,

which is different than strangulation. Both of them cut off your ability to breathe. Strangulation is actually a specific type of exfixiation, which is the lack of oxygen to the body. With strangulation though, that's pressure on the neck specifically. But exfixiation itself can be caused by many things, choking, drowning, something being placed over your face like a pillow. And that is what the coroner assumed happened in this case. Recall that there was a bloody pillow on the couch near Charlene's legs. It contained blood splotches and smears, which appeared to come from a struggle as she tried to breathe while someone was holding it over her wounded face. Her time of death was estimated to be approximately 12 to 1 a.m. on Monday, January 20th, 1992. So just a few hours before her body was

officially found right before 10 a.m. The conclusion was that Charlene had suffered severe injuries from blunt force trauma, someone had hit her hard enough more than once in the head to cause significant damage. And then, of course, there was the belt around her neck. But when her attacker realized that she was still alive, they didn't stop. They smothered her with a pillow, forcing the air from her lungs until her body gave out. Who did Charlene trust enough to open her door to on a cold January night? Who knew her well enough to have keys, or maybe they were bold enough to take them? And who could look at two sleeping boys and still walk away knowing exactly what they were leaving behind. Those answers would not come quickly. And the one person who truly saw what happened inside that

apartment was a three-year-old. In the days and weeks after Charlene's murder, the apartment in Pinewood Gardens was no longer just a home. It was a crime scene and a rumor mill. So many people had their thoughts on what happened and many of them were terrified to stay there. A lot of people moved out. Others were were so scared, they had neighbors stay with them. And Michelle was one of those people that were very fearful. She could not believe that her friend was dead. The sense of safety was shattered. When people heard that Dustin pointed out a police officer

as one of the killers, the rumors began. Cops weren't exactly trusted in this part of town. People who lived there had their fair share of run-ins with law enforcement themselves, or had to deal with legal issues when it came to things like child support, divorce, or even domesticals, where they didn't feel like the cops did as much as they could. We've heard that before. And soon, a new name was being repeated. Emma White. Her name was familiar to police. And she knew Charlene and she didn't like her.

And here's the backstory. Emma and Charlene went to high school together and they both lived at Pinewood Garden apartments. They used to be friendly, at least acquaintances, but friends and family revealed to investigators that Charlene had become terrified of Emma. Charlene's best friend, Missy, explained that Emma was really really. mean. Even back in high school, everyone tried to stay away from her. But then she began targeting Charlene recently, sending her angry threats, harassing her anytime they bumped into each other in the apartment complex. Because apparently, there were some substance usage going on and also some sales that took place in this complex. I'm pretty sure it happens in most, but recently a big

bust had happened in which Emma was arrested. And she was convinced that Charlene was a narque. that Charlene had called the cops on her. Emma believed Charlene had been placed in the apartment complex as an undercover informant. And none of that was true. But that didn't stop Emma from banging on Charlene's door, just demanding money for all the trouble that she thought Charlene had brought on her.

And of course, Charlene didn't have anything to provide to her, but she was kind. And she pleaded with her to understand that she would never tell on her. She even offered her some food out of her own refrigerator, but Emma refused. Charlene tried a reason with her saying that she would never do that because it's none of her business. But that didn't stop Emma from being belligerent. And it scared Charlene. When detective started looking at people with motive and anger, Emma stood out.

They tracked her down and they learned. She did have a past involving violence and assault on her record, but it was back from high school. That wasn't recent. But it was enough to at least, you know, put a red flag up. When you put that next to the harassment and the backdrop of that bus that happened, and the accusations, it made her look more dangerous. So they brought her in. When they asked her where she was on the night

that Charlene was killed and who could vouch for her and whether she ever went to her apartment and was angry enough to hurt Charlene, Emma answered, no. She had a strong alibi. And the more detectives dug into her whereabouts the night, the more that alibi actually held up. They cross-checked it, they tested it,

they looked for cracks, and then Emma did something not everyone in the story would be. willing to do and you'll find that out later. She agreed to take a polygraph. Polygraphs we know are not perfect. They're not a magic truth machine, but in the context of this investigation, the fact that she was willing to sit down, be wired up, and answer detailed questions about Charlene's murderer, that mattered. But according to the results, Emma was being truthful. No deception was indicated, no signs that she was hiding anything. So investigators who initially circled her as a very strong suspect had to accept that the evidence wasn't telling them that. Emma wasn't their killer.

Emma's name would stick to the case for a long time in rumor and speculation because it was a very easy narrative where a mean, angry neighbor just snaps. Who's actually watched the recent documentary of the perfect neighbor? It's terrifying. But officially, Emma was cleared. But the cop angle? Now that didn't diminish in the minds of those close to Charlene. What if there had been an officer that was some maybe taking advantage of some of the residents there who were threatening of her about the busts. And maybe since Charlene's name was being tossed around, a cop did try to pry for information, and Charlene refused, and things went south. Now, that narrative was much harder for investigators to believe, but it didn't stop the rumors from swirling. But here's the question. Can anyone really rely

on a three-year-old? That was a huge question in this case, and it's what intrigued me about it and why I wanted to cover it. After that night, three-year-old Dustin and two-year-old Derek went to live with the one person who still felt at the center of their world, their grandma, Phyllis, Charlene's mom, and her husband Charles.

They tried their best to provide the boys with as much of normalcy as they could, but it didn't take long for something very shocking to happen. Phyllis had collected all the boys' toys, and she also bought them new ones so they would feel comfortable around her house, and have something to do so that they wouldn't think about their mother. And only four days after Charlene was killed, Dustin, who, to be fair, was about three and a half at this point,

but still, he's a toddler. He's playing with a toy telephone in the presence of his grandmother, when all of a sudden he starts saying something very weird, things that a three-year-old should not be saying. And Phyllis starts to realize that she needs to write these things down immediately because they're related to her daughter, murder. This little boy had saw it happen. That was clear. But what wasn't were his words. They were fragmented. He might not make sense to someone who didn't know what this little boy had been through. But it started with a policeman. He said, I'm going to go get a belt. Go kick that window. Phone. Get the stick. I'm going to shoot you. A policeman. My mom seen the policeman. Why you do that to my mom? Policeman hit my mommy. Put tape on her. That's what

what he was saying into that phone. With just those statements alone, I have chills again. Just like the first time I ever read the documents related to this case and saw that part. I was stunned. He retained memory of those moments, and Phyllis was frozen. She was looking at her grandson who was staring at a photo of his mother in tears while he was saying all this. And there was more. She wrote it all down.

Things like, he hurt my mommy, the policeman did it, the purple stick. He would also kick his legs out in front of him, almost showing how Charlene was fighting back. And through an official court document, I was able to find two notes that Charlene scribbled down while Little Dustin was speaking into that toy telephone, and I'm going to read them to you. And even though they're fragmented,

just please try to listen to what he was saying and imagine what Phyllis must have been thinking in that moment when she's listening to this. The first note transcribed these words. I'm going to get the belt. A policeman. Go kick that window. Phone. Get the stick. I'm going to shoot you. Kick the window. Bathroom. Are you out here? Don't have no phone. A policeman. My mom's seen the policeman. Gun. Threw in garbage. Sleeping on couch. I'm going to crack you. Kick the window. Not getting out of here. Bob. I'm going to your house.

Corner. Call Papa. Get your radio. Go to sleep. Don't shoot. Papa got the paper. Policeman did it. Not the guy, lights on, big light, no telephone, you hear me, policemen got buttons, what do you come by my house for, what do you do that to my mom? You break window, Bob, policeman hit mommy, put tape on her, put nuts in her mouth, bad boy. As Dustin said that part, where he said bad boy, he was motioning towards his neck. As to say that this man was doing something bad to to Charlene's neck area. And then he picked up a picture of her and was still pretending to talk in the phone again saying, belt hitting. Not belt, but with a gun. I will break your foot. Pillow, head, brother and me. I don't want to shoot. Do you want to go to bed? Policemen got out of my house. We can't

get the policeman out of here. Wow. To me, that is very intense. I don't know about you, but as I was sitting reading all that. It was completely relevant to this context. And I can gather a lot. Every single time I think about him saying, like, kick the window. I feel like his mom was kicking at that window, trying to escape. The second note that I found was a little longer. But I think it's definitely worth reading to you. It's the same fragmented language. Of course, this is a three-year-old. And it went like this. The guy laughed and sticking tongue. Mom stick tongue and spit. Clap hands. Get off that bed. Shirt was ripping.

Nothing was cold. Smacked hands together. The bike and pointed to brother. Mommy's shirt was dirty. Light on. Crack. Scary gun, kicking the window with feet. Was up in bed?

No. She walked up and see this gun. Police was open his mouth talking. Shoot somebody. She right on herself. She got a phone. She braked it. The car will stay here.

She bumped her head. Took his hand and smacked his face. She was jumping on bed. You see that belt? Gun don't work. Brother was walking on floor. Greg and Trey knocking on door and Mary, a while to get indoor, get in van. He opened the door. He put it on the table. Better turn the truck on pillow. You better wait a minute. Turn truck on. Put pop in there. Police, that guy. Pulling on bed and chair. Well, come in the house. Police have hat like ball cap. Put pillow on mommy. Kick somebody.

Set that belt, crack somebody. Police lights on and off. Mommy jumping on bed. Again, I am shocked reading this to you. I think we can all infer what's going on here. Someone dressed in a uniform that looked like a police officer with a hat and buttons was hurting Charlene. It seems like she might have been in bed. I don't know if that meant she was on the couch because that's where Dustin used to sleep.

Or if she was in her bedroom. But it definitely sounds like he's relaying a struggle. He's reliving it in these moments. He's literally, it's like his mind is going from one side of the room to the other. Like the belt, the gun, his mom kicking. It's like he's replaying every moment. And that they had possibly pointed a gun at her, that they pulled her shirt, that her shirt was ripping,

and that she saw this gun and the attacker was talking to her saying something about shooting someone. When he said she was writing on herself, honestly, the only thing I could think of was that she was bleeding at that. point, which is really sad, but in a child's mind, if maybe her hands were bloody and she put them somewhere on her body, maybe he thought she was writing on herself. But what's crazy is he would have not known anything or understood anything about a pillow if it hadn't happened. The coroner had already determined that she had been smothered with a pillow.

And these fragmented statements, he's mentioning a pillow. He's saying belt hitting, not belt, but with a gun. I will break your foot, pillow, head. It sounds like this person was threatening Charlene. When he came in there, he was yelling at her, and she was trying to possibly use a phone that she doesn't have, and something was shoved in her mouth, which we know is true. So what he was saying was definitely adding up.

Even the part about the belt, it was actually Charlene's. It had come from a leather jacket that was later found in her closet and matched it. So even the statement he made, I'm going to get the belt and the belt hitting, and then he said not belt but gun, it seems like she was being hit with the belt in the beginning and he pointed to his neck.

We know there was a belt around her neck and ultimately we know that she had even more blunt force trauma to her head. It could have been from a gun like this little boy is describing. This was very valuable for detectives and as a matter of fact, they told Phyllis to bring Dustin

to a child psychologist for a clinical interview. I would love your thoughts and just please leave them in the comments. I always try to read all of them. but if you're putting everything together the way I am or maybe something that I missed, leave it below. Think about all the things that he said, all the facts that I'm going to tell you in this case. And if you have your own assumptions or theories of what could have been happening or what he

could have been seeing or how they could have been playing out, let me know. Because you'll find out later why I want to know this. I just find this part to be so interesting. I would love to get your thoughts on it. But by January 30th, Phyllis had made a problem. with Dr. Don Lord. She was referred by one of the lead investigators on Charlene's case. Dr. Lord sat down with Dustin in the presence of his grandmother and she spoke to him about what happened to his mom. And then she wrote her findings in a letter to a lieutenant on the case.

And this was very important as evidence collection in this case. I have a letter and I'm going to summarize it. She said that Dustin presented as a talented boy. He had many strengths, but he also had signs of anxiety and depression and some mild developmental delays. But it was important to understand that he just experienced a psychosocial stressor, actually the murder of his mom, and losing his mom. That's a change in where he's living, his lifestyle, and he witnessed what happened. This professional knows how to get a child out of their shell, and ultimately, Dustin did start talking about what happened that night. The first thing he said is that the attacker threatened him with violence. He said the man told him he would kill him if he talked about what happened.

Now, I'm summarizing this. This is the psychologist letter. She's an adult. She's going to be talking like an adult. And I'm relaying her words from what she observed Dustin saying when he was speaking to her. A three-year-old is obviously not going to be able to articulate it the way that an adult would. But through this doctor's expertise, she was able to determine what happened. He said that two men were in his mother's home.

The men had been there before and one had a gun. The two men were white. One of them wore a professional set of clothing that resembled a police officer's uniform. And Dustin said that one man started to yell at his mother, and they were both yelling back and forth louder and louder until he hit her over the head again and again with something. When Dustin was asked if he knew the name of this man that was hitting his mommy, surprisingly, he said he thought the man's name was Tim and that he'd been over the apartment at least two or three times in the past. Now he wasn't able to provide a last name or who this person was. He said he thought it was one of mommy's boyfriends. So with all this information, the psychologist reached out to Phyllis and Charles and asked,

do you know a guy named Tim? Somebody that was in your daughter's life? And they said yes, they knew two Tims. One is a man named Tim Green who had recently been working on Charlene's car. And Charlene also had an ex-boyfriend named Tim. This was a guy that she dated between Alan and Willard. After this, Dustin's next appointment with Dr. Lord was scheduled for a week later on February 6th,

and after that, he was seen two more times by the same psychologist. And over time, she got more and more information, that the uniform was black, that both of the men were dressed in black. One of them had a gun, and that his mother knew the man and let them in without a struggle. The two men were talking for some time, and when she asked how long, she said,

She said, could it be as long as a TV program like Sesame Street? And Dustin said yes. And one of the men started arguing with his mom and it escalated until his mom was attacked. When asked where his mom was attacked, he said he thought it was the bedroom. But we do find out he did sleep in the living room. So he could have been confused as to whether she was attacked near the couch at first or if she was back in her bedroom where it started. But it didn't really matter. He also said, the man who killed his mommy went to his mom's closet.

and got something, but he wasn't able to identify what that object was, but that he saw him hit his mom in the head with a gun on the top and on the back. What was interesting is he also mentioned that he thought the other man could have been helping his mom at one point, trying to get her out of the apartment, and that the other guy went and got the belt and hurt his mom with it. And then once his mom was dead, the two men were arguing with each other. Now, what's interesting, if you remember some of those fragmented statements, He said things like, go get the truck.

They could have been arguing about when to leave or how to leave the premises. I'm not really sure. And I don't really think anyone was helping her. I could be wrong. But maybe they were trying to bring her downstairs in the beginning. Like maybe bring her to the car, get her out of the apartment. I don't know. But what I do know is that this little boy has just described his mother's murder.

But what do you do with that information? You don't even have a suspect. Well, they did track down both of the Tim's, the ex-boyfriend, and the mechanic, and neither one of them were involved. Both of them had solid alibis. Now, it doesn't mean that Dustin wasn't telling the truth. Maybe one of the attackers looked like, resembled her ex-timed in some way. But it was like this child was holding on to a handful of jagged, bloody puzzle pieces. And every time he opened his mouth, one of those pieces slipped out, waiting to be put together.

But the problem was, adults were never going to totally agree on what those pieces meant or how much weight to give them. While Phyllis was trying to protect Dustin and help him heal, detectives were trying to figure out who could have done this to Charlene and why. With Emma ruled out, detectives turned their attention to another uncomfortable but obvious question. What about the fathers of Charlene's children? Both Alan and Willard had to be interviewed either way. Statistically, when a woman is murdered, you have to start but looking at the men closest to her. her, former partners, fathers of her children, anyone whose life is directly intertwined with hers emotionally or financially, so they went back to the basics. They needed to fully understand Charlene's relationships with Alan Redmond and Willard McCarley.