True Crime with Kimbyr - Part 1: A Mom Murdered, A House Torched & 33 Years of Silence!

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

A 12-year-old boy steps off the bus, clutching his honor roll certificate—ready to see his mom’s proud smile. Minutes later, he’s screaming as flames consume his home. But this wasn’t just a fire… it was murder. In True Crime with Kimbyr, we dive deep into the heart breaking case of Joy Hibbs—a devoted mother, beloved wife, and the heart of her Pennsylvania community—whose life was stolen on April 19, 1991. What really happened inside that burning house? And why did it take 33 years to uncover the truth? This emotional, detailed deep dive will leave you asking: who would target Joy? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I want you to think back to when you were only 12 years old. You're probably excited about things like a half day at school or making the honor roll. And you were probably a lot like little David Hibbs. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19. Tickets on sale now at Yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary.

You in? Must be 21 to enter. He was 12 years old when he stepped off his school bus on Friday, April 19th of 1991, clutching an honor roll certificate so tight it was wrinkling in his fist. Because he's already picturing his mom's face when he shows her. He's been picturing that moment in his head all day long. His mom smiling so proud of him. When he gets home from school that day, his mom's car is in the driveway of their home, and for half a second, everything feels normal.

But that's when he sees it. Thick, black smoke pouring out from a vent beneath the bay window of their kitchen. His mom and his new puppy named Major were inside. He ran to the back door, he threw it open, and heat hit him so hard and knocked him backwards. David immediately knew there was no way he could go inside. He ran to the front yard,

the front yard screaming for help so loud the neighbors came out of their homes and someone called 911 but it wasn't the fire that destroyed this family it was a killer hi everyone welcome back to my channel and if you've never been here before i am kimberlea it's nice to finally meet you now i have a deep dive for you today and i just want to say somebody commented last week on one of my last videos and they said girl this is way too long and i wanted to write back oh you must be new here because I used to do three and a half hour videos and some of you miss that. Well, this is some of your favorite style videos from me. What I have always been known for, the deadly deep dives.

And this one's going to frustrate you. It's going to leave you saying, why? Why? So many times. So let me take you back to April of 1991 to little David Hibbs. You know that feeling when you're a kid and you're carrying something into the house like it's a treasure? Like it's the one thing that's going to make your parents so proud that they're going to stop

whatever they're doing and look at you and just like maybe stick it on the fridge the way our moms do. That was David Hibbs that Friday on April 19th. I told you that he was 12 years old. It was a half day at school that day. Report card day. He already knew that he made the honor roll. And all day long, he had been holding onto this one thought. I can't wait to show my mom.

I can't wait to see her smile. Because his mom, Joy, didn't do anything halfway. She wasn't the kind of parent who barely glanced up and said, like, oh, cool, no, that was not her. She's the mom that we all dream of being. I know I do. The mom who celebrates. She made all the small stuff feel really big. And for a kid, that's so important.

So when the school bus was rumbling down Spencer Drive, a little after 1 p.m., David could not contain his excitement. He stepped off the bus and started walking towards their modest ranch home. They lived in for most of his life, the Hibs home in Croydon. Bristol Township in Pennsylvania. And the first thing he looks for without even thinking is his mom's car. And it's there. It's still in the driveway. She hadn't made it to work yet.

And relief hit him so fast because he had been worried. He was thinking, what if she went on errands? What if she left for work? What if she missed the moment that he has been waiting for? But if he only knew what he would find inside that house. As he gets closer, something completely shifts. And David can't explain it. He doesn't know, even years later, there's no right words for it.

It was just this strange feeling. The air just felt different. It was almost like it was too still and there was a heaviness about it. Like the neighborhood was frozen in time and he was the only one moving. It was like he had some kind of mission that he wasn't even aware of, at least not yet. And then he rounded the corner of the side of his house heading towards a kitchen window and that's when he saw it. The thick black smoke pouring out from a vent, underneath their bay windows.

This wasn't maybe something burned on the stove. This was dark, heavy smoke. It was the kind that you could feel in your throat just looking at it. And David's brain does that kid thing where you try to say that it's not real, like you're just imagining it, like closing your eyes and saying, nope, I'm not seeing this, it's a dream, but it wasn't. And when he realized the house was on fire

and that his mom's car was in the driveway, that could only mean one thing, that she was still inside. David goes into panic mode so fast, his body was moving before his thoughts even caught up. He sprinted to the back of the house. He grabbed the door handle, yanked it open, and the house just expelled smoke. It billed it out so fast and so hot and thick.

Just this blast of smoke and blistering heat exploded outward, like the house was just spinning it out onto him. He had the breath knocked out of him. He couldn't see, and he knocked him backwards so hard, he almost fell to the floor. And then he sees a flash of fur, the new puppy, races out through the door and bolts into the yard. David barely even noticed.

Because inside that doorway, he can see flames climbing, crawling up the walls like they're alive, but he doesn't think anyone else could be if they were inside. He knows his mom had to be. She was home. So he calls out her name watching like everything's happening in slow motion, even at 12. He understands immediately, I can't go in there. I can't get to her. The fire is too hot.

It's too fast, too much. So he runs. He runs for the front of the house into the street and starts screaming for help. He yells loudly, help, my house is on fire and my mom is inside, help! And neighbors pour out of their homes. People who are making lunch, folding laundry, doing ordinary Friday things, and they freeze when they see what David is seeing. Someone runs for the phone and calls 911 and David is frantic.

He's inconsolable. He's trying to launch himself back towards that doorway. A neighbor has to physically. restrain him. And David kicks and punches and thrashes around screaming, trying to break free because he knew his mom was inside. His mom was supposed to be in there. Her car was still there. And when the medics arrive, they realize David is a danger to himself. They guide him to the back of the ambulance, trying to block his view, trying to keep him from sprinting to that fire again. David later says that time felt warped. Like he was not truly in his own body. Like he was watching his

life happen from somewhere outside of it. And he sits in an ambulance shaking, and it feels like forever. And while Spencer Drive now fills with sirens and flashing lights, the news reaches Charlie Hibbs, Joy's husband. He was working his construction job in downtown Philadelphia about 20 miles away. When one of his coworkers rushes in, he's pale and he's out of breath, and he blurts out, Charlie, your house is on fire. Charlie doesn't even stop to ask questions. He runs to his truck and drives home as fast as he can. His whole world is on Spencer Drive. In back of the house, the firefighters crawl inside

on their hands and knees through heat and smoke so thick it turns these rooms into literally black caves. They push deeper, room by room, until they reach David's bedroom. And there on the floor, they find a body. Burned, still, and unrecognizable at first glance. And sadly, they had just heard. found Joy Hibbs. Outside, David was still clutching that honor roll certificate, still waiting for the

moment where his mom smiled and tells him how proud she is. He doesn't know yet that the house he walked into wasn't just a house fire. It was a crime scene. And the fight for the truth would take 33 years. So now you know why this is a deep dive. We have a lot to get to. But if you know my style, When I do a deep dive or when I talk about a story like this, I like to start with who the victim was. Before Spencer Drive became a blocked off street full of flashing lights and neighbors whispering on their porches, it was a normal place. The kind of working class neighborhood where kids disappeared into their backyards after school and came home when a parent yelled their name.

The kind of street where people wave from their driveways, where you recognize the cars that belong there, and where safe felt like something you didn't even have to think about. And the reason Joy Hibbs fits into that kind of neighborhood so perfectly is because Joy was built for it. She was built for community, built for family. That is just who Joy was. Joy Ann Avil was born September 23rd of 1955 to her father, Albert, who went by Sam and her mother, Tommy Jane, in Ocala, Florida. She was the youngest of nine children, which meant she grew up in a home filled with noise and voices overlapping and people moving around in a household that never. felt empty or quiet. And if you're wondering the names of all eight of her siblings,

unfortunately, I wasn't able to find every one of them. But she did have a brother, Clarence, another one named George, and there was Thomas and his sister Susan among the nine. Just the fact that she was in such a big household, that's the kind of childhood that shapes you. What I mean by that is it teaches you things like how to read a room, how to smooth things over, how to show up for people without even being asked because you have such a mixture of personalities right from the beginning. Joy carried that natural southern warmth from the start. The type of warmth that doesn't feel like she's putting on a performance, it's just there because it's genuine.

And people gravitated towards her, and her name suited her. Being around Joy felt like taking in a breath of fresh air. She was kind, loving, and she liked to have fun. She also had a competitive side, mostly when it came to track. and field and she excelled at it. She loved animals. She always had a pet, and usually more than one. If it was a cat or a dog, her favorite was a dog. She would have at least two at all times, and there seemed to always be one by her side. That didn't change as she grew up, but it was in high school that she found another love. Joy met the person who would reshape her entire life,

a blue-eyed boy named Charlie, Charlie Hibbs, and their connection formed very quickly. And by Joy's senior year, they were inseparable. And then Joy learned that she was pregnant, which in that era and in their families, didn't feel like, oh, we're going to just figure it out. It wasn't that type of situation. Both families were rooted in tradition and expectations. And everyone agreed there was only one path forward to get married. So shortly after graduation, Joy and Charlie did get married.

They had a simple but very beautiful celebration. The couple was both in white. Joy with her hair pulled back up with half of it like in a big buffonte or a beehive with lots of volume. Her dress was pretty non-traditional for the time. It was short and cute and collared, almost like with crocheted sleeves on it, tiny little cutouts, and I liked it a lot. And Charlie's tucks with its baby blue on it matched his eyes and they looked so happy. And they actually were so happy. The newlyweds drove away smiling as a photographer captured that,

joyful moment. They were young, though, and they were stepping into adulthood very fast, into responsibilities the most people ease into very slowly, but they were determined to build a life anyway, and one that they would be proud of. Nine months later, on January 3rd of 1975, their daughter, Angie, was born. And four years after that, on September 30th of 1978, their son, David, arrived. And from the very moment, the joy held her children. She found something that looked like a purpose to her. Motherhood wasn't a role she just carried out. It was something that she became instinctively so attached to

because it felt so right. She wasn't just raising a family. She was the anchor, holding everything in place. It made sense that Joy would be an amazing mother with the way that she loved and cared for animals. It was built into who she was. Joy was the kind of mom who didn't just do birthdays casually. If a birthday was coming up,

she didn't just circle it on a calendar. She planned every detail. She made sure her kids felt celebrated and seen. And if the school needed a volunteer, a classroom helper, a parent to attend a meeting, Joy would raise her hand before anybody else. And she did not complain. She didn't even look for recognition. It was just who she was.

She was fun-loving, almost like a kid at heart. So it was really easy to be the mom who showed up because she actually enjoyed it. She also loved food and cooking was fun too. But eating was even better. her family said that food was one of her many love languages, and that some of her favorite dishes included pecan pie, potato salad, and fried okra. She also loved watching sports. She was a big football fan.

On Monday nights, you could find her in front of the TV cheering on the Miami Dolphins or the Dallas Cowboys. And the way her children attached to her to hold you everything you needed to know. David openly called himself a mama's boy, and it was like a badge of honor for him. Some of his earliest memories were of clinging to the head. hem of Joy's nightgown as she moved from room to room, like if he lost sight of her even for a second, his world would fall apart. He followed her like a shadow, always just one step behind, soaking up every moment he could with his mom. And Joy, of course, she never pushed him away. She adored that he wanted to be close to her, and she made sure he always felt safe, wanted, and deeply loved.

Angie had the same type of bond with Joy, just shaped differently as she got older. And as Angie moved into her teenage years, the relationship between her and her mom shifted into something more that looked like a real friendship. Joy was the person that she confided in. Whether it was school stress, friend drama, boys, the future, Joy was the one that Angie could talk to about anything. And from the outside, Joy looked like she stepped right out of an old-fashioned TV show, soft-spoken, nurturing, always put together. I mean, she definitely had natural beauty. And eventually, she stopped wearing makeup all together because she really didn't hear. She kept her signature teased 80s hairstyle, though.

Perfectly in place, hair sprayed just the way she liked it, and that became one of her signature looks. Charlie, though, Charlie had a very different vibe. They were like opposites. Long, shaggy hair, thick beard, worn in jeans. He loved motorcycles and dirt bikes. And Joy actually did like to ride with him too. But to strangers, he might have looked intimidating.

However, underneath that rugged exterior was a very very was a very hardworking man who was a general contractor who actually enjoyed calm things too. Fishing early in the morning, tinkering in the garage, and fishing was that one thing he would drop everything for, but not because he wanted to do it, it was because that was Joy's favorite hobby. And if she said, we're going fishing that day,

that was what they were doing, and she loved it. Charlie was an introvert, and even though they looked like opposites, Joy and Charlie were compatible in so many ways, all the ways that really matter. They shared their love for the outdoors, and Joy could spend hours in the garden. Charlie would often say that Joy was a country girl at heart, and he loved that about her. So that's why anytime she said she wanted to go fish, he would jump at the opportunity.

If she wanted to dig in the dirt or plant flowers, he would join her. Their best family trips were the ones spent camping under open skies, making s'mores over the fire, with their dogs in the back of the truck bed not left behind. They were part of the family, where the Hibs went, their pets went. Joy actually spent time working as a vet tech, but her dream was to become a medical assistant. She truly loved people and wanted to help. This family was very close if you haven't noticed.

They did almost everything together. If Charlie needed lumber for a job, Joy would go with him and keep him company. On weekends, they wandered around flea markets, browsing old tools and antiques. And in the summer, they would hop on their motorcycles and ride to the rest stop of I-95 just to sit and be together. For Joy, it was really the simple things that brought her the most happiness, even just listening to music, especially, like I said, country and rock and roll.

She loved Van Halen, the Rolling Stones, Van Morrison, Kenny Rogers, and Brian Adams. To Angie and David, of course their parents weren't perfect, but they knew they were good partners. Joy was the calm center of the family, and Charlie worked really hard to keep her at the center of that. Their bond shaped that entire household. But for a long time, their home was not in one permanent place. When the kids were little, Joy and Charlie moved wherever the work took them. They started in Florida, then to Texas, and then to Washington State. And each move was another attempt at stability, another try at giving their kids something better.

In Washington, Charlie finally hit a really good stretch of good luck. Construction work was steady. The pay was really good. And it started to feel like they might have found their place. Then Mount St. Helens erupted. and everything changed. Communities were actually devastated. Businesses shut down, the jobs were nowhere.

They practically dried up overnight. With no work and two kids to support, Joy and Charlie made another big decision. They had to relocate closer to family. They moved across the country again, and this time to Northeast Pennsylvania, where Charlie's mom and stepfather lived. Charlie's plan was to join his stepfather's construction business,

and Joy was determined to build a life she could be proud of. She wanted to work hard to go back to school and become a certified medical assistant. And she did. And she quickly found a job almost immediately. It was at a family practice in the area. This was something she always wanted. And finally, after years of moving,

they landed somewhere that felt permanent to them. By 1986, the Hibbs family had enough money saved. They were able to buy a modest three-bedroom ranch-style home for only $42,000. I mean, I'm saying only because of how you could not get a house like that at all for that price now. But there it was on Spencer Drive in Croydon, Bristol Township, Pennsylvania, a quiet street of neatly kept lawns and families who waved from their porches,

a true working-class neighborhood. And for the Hibbs family, it was everything that they had been searching for. They were so happy. I mean, this was a huge milestone for this entire family. This house was their house. It meant so much to them. And the house was cute. It was very charming.

It had these little bay windows looking out from the kitchen, a backyard for the kids and pets to play in, and their own driveway. It was perfect. Angie and David made friends immediately, playing tag, riding bikes, just disappearing into neighbors' yards after school and returning home when the streetlights came on

or when Joy would call them in for dinner. David, being young and carefree, was actually the one that would go riding his bike all around the neighborhood and introducing himself to the neighbors, and then he'd tell them about his mom and dad and bring them over to say hello. And soon,

Everyone on their street knew who the hibs were. Joy and Charlie blended in quickly. They would chat over fences. They would help out when someone needed an extra hand, settling in to this comfortable community where people genuinely looked out for one another. And that's one thing about Joy. They weren't just living in this home.

Joy made it into their home. She was so good at making people feel like nothing would ever fall apart as long as she was there, which is why what would happen next hits the way. that it does. Because when you're the person that is at the center of your family, nobody ever truly believes that anything will happen to you and that you could just be taken away. And now we have to go back to April of 1991 when the Hib's lives changed forever. Just days earlier in mid-April, Joy and her husband Charlie, they were doing something very simple. They went out to dinner together to celebrate another

year of marriage. And after the meal, they drove home with the windows cracked, and the radio turned up, and they were singing along to their favorite songs. And it was one of those nights that makes you forget the struggles you've had. Even only if it's for a couple hours, the kids, Angie and David, they had been away that weekend, which meant that the house was quiet. And it was just the two of them. And those moments were rare, and they were just really sweet after years of raising kids and rebuilding their lives across multiple states. Charlie would say later that that night It was really wonderful. It was one of the last carefree memories he had of him and his wife's life together.

And then came April 19th. That's where we left off in the beginning, but now with a lot more detail so you can really understand what that day looked like for this family. It started like any other weekday morning inside the Hibs home. Charlie woke up before sunrise. He was getting ready for another long construction day. And before he walked out that door, he did something small that only things that only feels important later. He carried the family's new puppy, a tiny black lab, a big ball of energy

and softness into the bedroom and gently set it beside joy. And then he woke up David because he knew that David loved to climb into bed with his mom and snuggle with their puppy before getting on the bus to school. It was their little ritual. The kind of thing kids build their whole sense of safety and security around without even realizing it. It was his constant. It happened every day. Angie, who was 16, was in her own morning chaos, hairspray, books, trying not to miss the bus as she darted out the door with just a quick goodbye. Moments later, David grabbed his backpack and headed out as well. For David, this wasn't just any Friday. It was report card day.

And even better, it was a half day. He was getting out at noon. And he already knew he made the honor roll and he was so proud of it. But of course, the real prize wasn't his name on a list or even the certificate. It was going to be Joy's reaction. She celebrated everything, big things, small things, it didn't matter. And David couldn't wait to walk through the front door and see her face when he showed her what he had earned. And back inside, Joy was doing her morning routine like she always did.

Coffee at the kitchen table, maybe two cups if she was tired that morning, a few words to her kids as they rushed around gathering their shoes and their homework, and the house was slowly emptying out as her day began. And after the house settled down into silence, Nothing about Joy's morning seemed unusual at all. Nothing warned her that this would be the last day of her life. She planned to leave for work later that day around 2 p.m. Now, she worked for the doctor in the area from 8 to 2.30 p.m. during the week,

but two days every week, one of them being Fridays, the office was open late. So Joy would actually start at 2 p.m. and end at 8 p.m. She would go do her errands that day, go to the grocery store, and then go to work. So a little after 1 p.m. That is when David's bus. came down Spencer Drive and stopped right in front of their house. He stepped off, clutching that honor roll certificate,

and that's when he noticed his mother's Maroon Mercury Cougar in the driveway. And all the while, on the way to the house, he kept wondering, would she still be home when he arrived? Or whether she would already be at work or running errands, and he would miss the chance to walk in that house and show off his accomplishments. And that's when he noticed the smoke.

And he ran to the backyard to avoid that area and try to go inside the back door. And I can only imagine how horrific it was to see that this home that they loved was burning to the ground. Flames shooting out from inside and he was in a panic. The smoke was so thick. He couldn't even see inside. He hardly noticed that the black little puppy ran out the door under his feet. His eyes were fixated on the stove. It looked like there were flames coming off the top where the burners were. Now, he was in total shock. I can't even imagine that fear. but instead of standing there frozen,

he ran to the street. He screamed for help. And that is when Barbara Baker, she's in her front yard, she hears his screams, and she tells another neighbor to go call 911 for help. Barbara was the one that literally had to pin David against a palm tree in her yard because he was trying to run back inside to save his mother.

And finally, she couldn't hold him any longer because he was punching her in the chest. And that's because he was so frantic. He wanted to break free. So badly, another neighbor had to put him in a bear hug until the authorities arrived unseen. David would later say that those minutes actually felt surreal. Like he wasn't even there. Like time just stretched into something endless.

Those were his words. And he felt like it was just forever when medics finally got there. And that's when they realized the danger he would have had running into those flames. So that's when they put him in the back of the ambulance trying to keep him safe and calm him down and also to shield him from what he could be seeing because that house was starting to burn to the ground. David's father was already on the way, literally stopped what he was doing at work on his construction job when he heard one of his employees screaming that the house was on fire. He got there as fast as he could and 16-year-old Angie would be getting off her school

bus around 2.30 so it wouldn't be long before she was also on the scene while still at school. She was actually hearing vague talk about a fire somewhere in their neighborhood, but nothing about it sounded personal at all. Her mind went to something really normal. Her prom dress, the one that her and her mom had bought recently. She wondered if the fire, wherever it was in the neighborhood, might have damaged her dress. It didn't even cross her mind that her mother could be inside that smoke, that it could be their house on fire. And, you know, it might sound weird, but I think it's completely normal for a teenager. to think about her prom dress.

It's not even irrational for her to think if a house was down the street and on fire that would somehow reach her dress, but maybe she thought that so many different houses would be affected. But unfortunately, the truth was so much worse. And when Charlie arrived, the first thing was, they wouldn't let him anywhere near his own home.

He was watching firefighters dousing out this fire with their hoses, and he was just staring in shock. Because there was nothing he could do. And that's when he sees them pushing a stretcher out of his his house. Even through the smoke and at a distance, he knew before his brain could even catch up that that was his wife and his knees gave out. He staggered towards his truck for balance and he began sobbing. I mean, he was crying and could hardly contain himself. David was watching from the ambulance and he said he had never seen his father cry like that before in his life. Seeing him

break down was terrifying. You know, the parents are always the ones that we suck it up, we hold it We don't want our kids to know, but if there's a moment like that that's completely tragic, you cannot contain it. Angie gets there around this time, and as her bus pulls up, she can't believe what she's seen. The street looked like a disaster scene. There were fire trucks lined up the block. Police were moving in and out across lawns.

Medics were carrying equipment back and forth. And there were neighbors just standing in clusters, whispering and pointing and just watching. And there was smoke, just hanging in the air. as she stepped off that bus, and you couldn't find anyone. She didn't know where her father was. She couldn't find her mom or her brother. She was in a panic. And there she was in the street, just scanning the crowd

for a face that she knew was familiar until she saw the ambulance. And in the back, the doors were open, and inside she saw David. He was hunchboard. His shoulders were trembling, and he was clutching their little puppy to his chest. A medic had actually found the dog, handed it to him,

to try to give him something to hold on to because he was crying, and he was so panicked. And for one second, Angie felt relieved. She was like, oh, good. The puppy was saved. Her mind didn't even go to her mother being inside. She thought maybe her mom was nearby.

Maybe she was talking to the police. Maybe Angie just hadn't found her yet. But as she reached the ambulance, she overheard what someone was telling David. Soft voices, careful words, and she saw her brother shake his head, refusing to believe it. He kept saying,

No, you're wrong. And she heard someone say it. Just matter of factly, she didn't make it. I'm personally terrified, absolutely terrified by fire. It's one of the scariest things for me. I think it's just so powerful, so devastating and unforgiving. And Angie couldn't believe that her mom was gone, dead, that she was never coming back because she knew what it meant that she didn't make it.

And I was thinking to myself, It must happen so quickly. When it says your mind can't catch up, I can imagine what that's like when you're just sitting there in shock. I mean, she said to herself, how did the dog get out? And my mom didn't.

Like, how was that possible? And that night, Charlie took Angie and David to his parents home. And the three of them just held onto each other. They barely spoke. They just cried. I mean, words meant nothing at this point. There was nothing to say. And I feel like that so many times when I tried to give condolences,

there just aren't any words. David was shaking. He was still at one moment and then he would panic because the realization would come back into his mind that his mom was never coming back. The first responders had told the family

that Joy had been found in his bedroom and then he had this guilt. It just kept gnawing at him. He thought, was there something in my room that started the fire? Was it my computer? Did she run in to see something? Was it my equest,

Aquarium light left on, did something spark this? And his mom stepped in there and she died. I mean, thinking about that as a 12-year-old, it would be devastating. You'd feel so much guilt. And by morning, Joy's husband, Charlie, he could not just sit still anymore. He drove back to Spencer Drive and he saw the house with its blackened shell. The windows had been shattered and now they were boarded up. The siding was scorched.

The roofline was warped. Personal items were all over the lawn as they were examined. Things that were once so meaningful to this family were now blackened with soot. Whole bed frames were charred. Mattresses were non-existent except for the springs. And smoke was still clinging to the air. Yellow tape cut across the property, keeping outsiders out, and there was toxic material inside.

But there was also bodily fluids, remnants of a human being. It wasn't a place that anyone should have been. But Charlie, he tried to step past to go inside to see where his wife had been. But officers stopped him. The property they told him was an active death investigation and no one, not even Joy's husband, was allowed inside. Now, anytime a fire occurs where a death happens

and you probably know this, the fire marshal actually has to come out there as part of the death investigation. They want to pinpoint how this fire started. And this is important for so many reasons. For one, they want to know if something was recalled, if it was an appliance that wasn't working properly and it malfunctioned, if there was some kind of

of electrical device that sparked and caught fire, so it's crucial for them to know so they can save others' lives, if that's the case. And inside, the fire marshal moved through the ruins of his house, noting every single detail. This was not a complete loss, meaning there were things in this house that did not burn to the ground. There were things that were intact,

mostly because David had come home early from school and alerted the neighbors so fast. When the fire marshal got into David's bedroom, he knew this was where Joy was found. It was nearly annihilated. He estimated that the heat was around 1,000 degrees at the height of the blaze. And in the debris, he found a partially melted clock

that stopped at exactly 1254 p.m. This suggested that that is when the fire began around that time, which would mean that was minutes before David stepped off that bus. That is so sad. But you'll come to find out there's nothing he could have done to save his mother anyway. And then came the kitchen. All four of the stove burners had been on when firefighters arrived.

David thought that's what he caught a glimpse of when he was looking through the door. And the fire marshal determined combustibles were definitely placed on top. There was a garbage can that had clearly been set on fire. And then back in David's room, they found magazines and books that had been burned, almost like they were a kindling material right near his bed. And from the evidence, it was determined, according to the positioning of Joy's body that she was actually on her son's bed when she died. As the fire marshal continued through the house,

he identified four separate areas where fires had been started. Started. So that's key here. There were burn patterns showing there were individual ignition points of this fire. And at least one of those locations was inside David's bedroom. And inside there was what appeared to have been a suspected accelerant. So I think you probably knew that this case was not going to be just an arson case. and that it definitely doesn't fit an accident.

By the time the fire marshal stepped back and looked at the whole picture, the conclusion was no longer just a possibility. It was the only thing that fit what happened here. This fire had been set on purpose. It was arson. But who would do such a thing? Would joy? Now, it had to be ruled out.

It's sad to even think about it that you have to go there when you have this grieving family and everything, that they're waiting to hear what happened to their loved one. they don't want to think that maybe their own loved one caused this to themselves. They didn't even want to imagine that, but investigators had to. The next step was the autopsy. Because if Joy died in the fire, investigators had to understand how. Forensic pathologist Dr. Halbert Fillinger completed the examination.

But the moment he examined her airway, Joy's cause of death shifted right away. Because there was no soot, no smoke particles, and no sign that Joy had been breathing during that fire. That meant she didn't die because of the smoke or the flames. She was already dead before the fire even began. This is a classic cover-up, a killer believing that fire is going to get rid of everything, even evidence of their crime. A crime to cover another crime, and that hardly works. And as the examination continued, the violence was undeniable. Joy had suffered a severe beating blunt force trauma to her body so severe her rib cage was crushed. She had been stabbed five times in the neck and chest, and there was evidence of strangulation.

There was a melted and burned cord wrapped around the upper portion of her body, and it was determined to be a computer cord. However, there was no evidence of her being sexually violated, and the medical examiner ruled this entire situation as a homicide. And that's when everything changed from a death investigation to a murder investigation. I mean, it's kind of clear with stab wounds and blunt force trauma. The coroner, though, made a public statement. He said that the wounds were definitely not self-inflicted. She wasn't killed in a fire. She was murdered.

And the question on Spencer Drive now wasn't how a house caught on fire. It was this. If someone could kill Joy Hibbs inside her home sometime late that morning before 12.54 p.m., who walked in? And how did they walk back out of that house without being seen in the middle of broad daylight because of this neighborhood was one of those neighborhoods where everyone was watching?

You cared about who came and went because this was your safe place. But Spencer Drive wasn't safe, not anymore. And now detectives had to treat the Hibbs home like what it actually was. Not the site of a fire, but the sight of a violent killing that someone had tried to erase. They returned to the black and sheds,

shell of this ranch home on Spencer Drive with a different kind of focus now, stepping carefully over charred beams and melted debris, trying to reconstruct a sequence of events that the fire had worked over time to destroy. The problem, though, was obvious. The second you looked around, fire doesn't just burn furniture, it burns the timeline because it burns fingerprints. It burns every little subtle clue that investigators usually rely on. Trace evidence, fibers, blood patterns, anything delicate enough that would tell a story. And then the water, the water that firefighters used to put the fire out washes everything away. This is powerful.

So whatever the flames didn't consume, the fire also erased. There were still some things, though, that stood out. One was that they did not note any forced entry to the house. The doors weren't splintered, the frames were not smashed. The locks did not look tampered with. There was no obvious sign that, let's say, someone kicked their way inside. And that detail mattered because it immediately forces a question that nobody wants to really ask out loud. Did Joy know her killer?

Did she willingly open the door? Did she trust them? Or maybe at least she didn't see them as a threat. So as the detectives have moved deeper into the house, they make another discovery in the living room. Wedged in between burned cushions of the couch was Joy's wallet. Completely empty. Her purse was in the kitchen. It was open and the contents were.

spilled out. Now this doesn't automatically mean a robbery took place because you have a case where high-powered hoses could have moved things, knocked over a purse. We don't know that. I mean, we don't know what happened to the contents of her purse or her wallet. But if things were taken, then it could explain why she had possibly been targeted in the first place. Then they went into the room where everything had been the hottest, David's bedroom, the room where firefighters had found Joy's body. And inside, they found the remnants of a burned electrical cord blackened and curled from the heat. And with the medical examiner confirming there was strangulation, and there was also a burned piece of cord that was wrapped around Joy's body, they realized that this cord, whatever

was left of it, was most likely what was used during the attack. Now, the idea that a common household item, like a cord, could have been used as a weapon, made this scene feel more personal for one thing. it was like the killer, you know, obviously didn't come prepared with one single tool and then leave. They used what was there. And also that this could have happened really fast. Like maybe they didn't come there with the intention for this to happen this way, but they didn't know. Now in the kitchen, investigators took note of the knives that survived the fire. You know, some of them were warped. They were partially, I don't know, like burned and melted down. But none of them matched the stab wounds that the medical examiner documented, which meant that the knife used to kill Joy wasn't

you know, hidden in a drawer somewhere waiting to be found, it had not been in the house when the fire was started. It was gone. It was taken, probably disposed of. And now another moment that a lot of investigators dread. They had to sit down with Charlie Hibbs and tell him what the autopsy showed, what all the evidence leaned to. Until then, Charlie had been trapped in this nightmare,

the belief that his wife had just died being trapped in a fire. I mean, that's already so devastating. But then, can you imagine being told that someone you love not only suffered, but it was brutal, that they had been murdered. That was even worse, because now he was thinking of everything she had been through. I guess there's one positive, and it's not even that, but obviously knowing that she did not die in that fire, that she was already dead before the fire started, but Charlie's in complete shock. He doesn't understand. He was like, how could she be strangled and stabbed?

When he told his children that they didn't just lose their mother, but that she had been murdered, they just lost all sense of reality. Angie had already been drowning in disbelief since she heard that her mom didn't make it. But hearing that someone had done this to her mom deliberately inside their own home, to her that was so personal. And for David at 12 years old, his reaction was pure fear. He kept thinking, what's stopping this killer from coming back? Was he watching them right now?

Was he waiting? Were they next? He started sleeping with the lights on. He would keep checking the doors. And at night, he had to be close to his father because he couldn't be all by himself. So he slept with his dad. And Charlie, of course, was trying to make sense of everything. He was trying to put the pieces together,

trying to think of who would want to hurt his wife. And one thing he kept coming back to was joy herself. She was strong. She was athletic. She wasn't the type of woman to freeze and let something happen without finding. If someone attacked her, Charlie believed that she would have struggled hard. And that only circled him right back to the detail that detectives already couldn't ignore. No forced entry.

If Joy opened the door, why? So that's where they really wanted to start. And you hear this every time. The ripple effects through this neighborhood could be felt everywhere. Neighbors were double checking their locks. The parents were not letting their kids stay out. Everything was different now. There was a killer on the law.

loose. So the illusion that this was the kind of place where nothing like this happened, that was gone. The detectives though knew that this neighborhood would probably be some of the best witnesses because I told you, people were watching all the time. So someone had to have seen something on Spencer Drive. This wasn't some isolated property tucked behind acres of land. These homes were sitting close together. I'm showing it on the screen. I mean, this is a neighborhood now, but only 12 to 15 feet apart. The kind of street like that where you hear a screen door slam, a dog bark, someone yelling from their yard. And on a warm spring day, people were all out and about with their windows open. They were outside. If something unusual was happening, there was a good chance someone noticed,

even if they didn't understand what it was at the time. So, of course, detectives do what they always do. They go door to door. They're trying to collect all the normal details, you know, talking about people's day, anything you saw or heard. And residents told them there was a lot of lot of activity that morning. Some mentioned even seeing a man who worked for the sanitation department going to the back of the Hibbs property and that stood out. Others noticed that their mail carrier they usually had the regular person wasn't there. So someone else was on their route. Detectives followed up. They questioned the sanitation worker, they tracked down the temporary mail carrier, but nothing was connected to what happened. They even went to all the places that Joy went on her errands and one by one,

all these promising leads, these potential tips, fizzled. Nothing concrete came out of it. Nothing explained why Joy, why that house and why that day. So detectives did what they always do next. They start building a timeline of Joy's final moments minute by minute. They learned that she began her day at a local bank where she deposited Charlie's paycheck, and then she also cashed her own from the doctor's office. It was a $70 check, and records showed she left the bank at 9.53 a.m.

And from there, she went to a grocery store, picked up some items and checked out at 10.54 a.m. Around 11 o'clock, neighbors saw her back at home walking the puppy outside. And that was the last confirmed sighting of her alive. But then, somewhat of a lead. Detectives find out someone visited the Hibbs home that morning. Instantly, that piqued their interest. Not because it sounded sinister right away,

but because it was one of the only confirmed points where a stranger or a near stranger could have crossed, Joy's path. Apparently around 11.30 a.m., two men from a local Baptist church had stopped by, Reverend Orlando and his associate. The Hibbs family wasn't even religious. But Joy had a co-worker who went to that church, and a few weeks earlier, Joy had gone with her for an Easter service, and she filled out one of those cards that said she was open to a church visit. It's just odd that it was on that day, on the day that she's murdered. Detectives brought Reverend Orlando in, and questioned him carefully, and Orlando explained that he and his associate did go visit Joy's house

to talk about her spiritual life and to invite her more formally into the church. He said at one point, he asked her directly, and now it's a very eerie question, if you died today, do you know for certain that you would go to heaven? And he told detectives that Joy got really emotional and she cried as they prayed together in the living room. Now, he believed those were tears of joy. I mean, that's of a pun since her name is Joy, I get it, but he said, tears of joy. It was a sign in his perspective that she felt spiritually saved in that moment. And wow. I mean, what are the chances?

You know, it's comforting to those who believe in that type of salvation, but Joy died soon after this, and that seemed too coincidental. Not that a person from the church was to blame, but it just stood out. Reverend Orlando told detectives that he and his associate left the house roughly 10 minutes before noon. He said at that point he went to eat lunch with his wife and he left for another scheduled visit. And his wife confirmed that timeline. And they were also able to confirm his associate's timeline as well. With those confirmations, detectives concluded it was not probable that these church visitors could have left, returned, committed such an extreme violent act, set multiple fires

throughout this house and vanished without anyone on Spencer Drive noticing. So that lead, one of the few that seemed real in the early hours, was closed. They did not move forward. But their confirmed timeline now created something that detectives could work with. If Joy was last seen around 11 a.m. And if the church visitors left just before 12 p.m. and if the partially melted clock in David's bedroom stopped at 1254 p.m. The approximate time of the fire starting, then the window for Joy's

death narrowed down to about 11.50 a.m. to 12. 50 p.m. just one hour. Think about that. If she had been anywhere else but at her home, maybe she would still be alive. Or maybe her death would have just been delayed because possibly she had been targeted. Maybe somebody was watching or stalking her. They didn't know. And that's when the neighborhood started offering details that felt less like background noise, and more like a real potential lead, because multiple neighbors reported seeing a dark blue 1980s-era Chevy Monty Carlo parked right outside the Hibbs home that day. And it wasn't parked cleanly, like someone was visiting politely, no, no.

It was parked really oddly. It was sitting about three feet from the curb, almost like the driver pulled up quickly, didn't even bother straining the car out, like they were on a mission, one where they would have been in and out of Joy's House. quickly. One neighbor remembered that it was around 1230 and another notice that it was gone by 1 p.m. And no one even got a license plate because of course in that moment no one knew it was going to matter. But the problem was for detectives anyway, Monty Carlos were very common. I mean, everyone was buying a Monte Carlo, everyone was driving one. The fact though that there was more than one

neighbor noticing the same car enough to remember its color, the model, the weird park that made it harder to dismiss. So detectives started going wider. They were running plates. They were trying to narrow down if anyone had a blue Monte Carlo around. But while that is happening, they're getting more and more of an impression

that there's no point of this because, like I said, so many people had this car was so common. So they go back to what they did have. Joy's timeline, the murder window, the lack of forced entry into the home, the empty wallet, and of course they write down a dark blue Montycarlo. Carlo. They thought their best bet was actually to ask Charlie himself, do you know anyone who drove

a car like this? Because it was parked at his house. Did they have a friend with this kind of car? Or did they know an acquaintance with this kind of car? And Charlie doesn't even hesitate. He had an answer right away. He told them, yeah, I do know someone who drives a Monte Carlo. And the second that name entered this conversation, the investigation stopped feeling like a bunch of random possibilities, and it actually started feeling like it could go somewhere, like they were going to catch their killer. It was suddenly attached to a person who had been close enough to their lives to be remembered, and his name was Bob.

Bob Atkins. I know this name is completely new to all of you, because I did not mention every single neighbor on that block that the Hibbs were friends with. But I will let you know when they were welcome to the neighborhood, I told you that little David would go around on his bike, he would meet people, and then introduce him to his family. Well, Bob was one of those people that David initially met with when they first got to the neighborhood, and they were only two houses down. And his wife, April, got introduced to Joy, and they became friends really fast.

But the Atkins actually moved away a few months earlier. Charlie still remembered that car, though. Dark blue, Monte Carlo. Bob talked about it like it was an extension of his own body. He wanted one for so long, and he'd just recently been able to purchase one. Charlie explained that the Monte Carlo had originally, belonged to April's grandma, so Bob's wife's grandmother. And Bob was so proud when he got it.

So that's why it stood out. But does this even have relevance? Was the car even there that day? And was it even Bob Atkins? Because remember, like I told you, Monte Carlo was a popular type of car. Maybe people just remembered seeing it around in the past. But what they did have right now was a name that connected to the neighborhood and most importantly, connected to Joy, because Bob was friends with this family.

So they had to check them out. I know all their friends were going to get questions sooner or later, but you have to just check everyone off your list one by one. So no better time than now, right? They asked Charlie first, what was his relationship with Bob and April? And Charlie, even in his grief, he was clear. Joy in April, they were friends, as I said. And Joy was the kind of woman who could make a friendship happen just by being herself because she was so personable. And April had a little toddler.

He was only two years old. Joy love babies, and she would scoop up their little kid and bounce them around on her hip. I mean, her and April would talk in their kitchen for hours about parenting and life and everything that was going on in the neighborhood. But when it came to Bob, well, of course, Bob wasn't good friends with Joy, but Charlie had to think about Bob. There was just something that kind of rubbed Charlie the wrong way. He was the kind of guy, Charlie said, you tolerated because you had to live on the same street. but he also never felt like he could fully relax around him. And the kids noticed it too.

Bob was impatient. He had a short fuse. But most of all, the neighborhood knew something that he couldn't hide. Because when the windows were open on warm nights, you could hear Bob yelling at his wife, April, from two houses away, from more than two houses away. Not once or even twice. Enough that it was actually like part of the background noise of their neighborhood.

David later described it like a switch flipping. It was like Bob could change out of nowhere. He would be sitting at their house, smiling, and then a moment later, he was like, enough as enough, I'm out of here. It was like little things bothered Bob. And that's when detectives asked a question that probably wasn't easy for Charlie to answer.

Even though he had come to the station determined to give them everything he could, had joy being connected to Bob in any other way, and you know what they mean. They're asking like, could they be, you know, in a relationship of any kind. Let's be honest. No relationship is perfect.

There could be things going on behind closed doors that people don't know about. And also, some people raise their voices. Some relationships are toxic. And this wouldn't be the first neighbor that someone could hear yelling. I mean, just last week, I heard one of my immediate neighbors screaming and they were saying, no, leave.

This isn't going to work. Did I call the cops? No. But what I'm trying to make the point of here is like, some of this is kind of normal, even though we shouldn't normalize it. Bob would yell. He would raise his voice. He would raise his voice to his wife, and that really just didn't seem related to anything with joy. But the detectives notice that Charlie hesitated when they asked that question, almost like he was avoiding the answer, not because he didn't want to help them, but because possibly there was a complicated layer to it that he wasn't ready to talk about.

and that was true. And it involved marijuana. He was honest. He told the detectives that him and joy enjoyed smoking some weed only on the weekends. Not constantly, not in a way that interfered with their life or their responsibilities and they didn't let their kids know.

It was just to relax. Charlie even took detectives to the garage and showed them where he kept his smallest stash. And that's when he told them, it came from Bob Atkins. He was their go-to guy, but of course, not only does Charlie not want to rat out his form neighbor, he really doesn't want to paint himself or his now deceased wife in a negative light. But he did go on to admit that sometimes Joy bought it from him too, about $20 worth when she

needed something, you know, to take the edge off, so to speak. It wasn't some huge operation or this big reveal, but in an investigation like this, even the smallest details, they matter because it could tie something else together, especially because detectives already knew from the autopsy, There was a toxicology report. It showed that there was marijuana and joy system, just a small amount of cannabis. That was not significant at the autopsy, and it didn't seem that significant now either.

But since they were on a role with these questions, detectus had another one for Charlie. If Bob was his source, what was that relationship like, especially lately? Was he still selling him stuff? You know, ever since he moved down the neighborhood? And he was like, no, that was it.

As far as he knew, that was the extent of any relationship or connection between the Hibbs and the Atkins, when you're speaking at Bob in particular. Because, yes, he's still sold to them from time to time, but that was it. There wasn't anything else. There wasn't some, like, hidden drama or affairs going on, nothing like that.

So detectives moved to a new topic. They needed Charlie to think really hard. Was there anyone or anything different about Joy's life leading up to April 19th? Because a homicide, followed by an arson, doesn't usually come out of nowhere. It tends to come after something, some kind of conflict, fixation, escalation. And that is when Charlie remembered something. The vandalism. Charlie explained that about two months before Joy was killed,

someone had thrown a brick through their front window of their house. And at the time, they kind of brushed it off. They thought, okay, maybe it's bored kids in neighborhood, teenagers being stupid. It's just the kind of thing you complain about, but then you just clean it up. But the thing was, it didn't stop. Not long after this, Joy came home

to something that felt more aggressive and more personal. The rear door to their house had been kicked in so violently, it was hanging crooked on the hinges, and this wasn't a prank. This wasn't just like a thrown rock. This was someone putting a lot more effort and force into their home, which was their speech.

and their safe space, and it almost came off as a warning, and that concerned them. And I was thinking, yeah, that's definitely over the top. And Joy was shaken. Shaken enough. She drove to David's school. She signed him out early. And the reason she did this is she thought

that maybe she could question her own son as if he maybe heard something in the neighborhood, but he didn't. And he was confused and worried because he didn't even have the answers. Joy then asked her teenage daughter, and she didn't know either. They had no obvious enemies, no real reason that anyone would do this.

And if it wasn't kids in the neighborhood, like she hoped it was, she thought, maybe it could be resolved by just walking to a parents' home, having a talk with them, maybe their kids did this, but that wasn't it. So that made her really concerned. And then several weeks later, she woke up and Joy found all four of her car tires slashed. And by the time detectives heard this back-to-back see of vents, brick, door, tires, this did not sound random at all. It sounded like someone was testing their boundaries.

They were getting bolder. And Charlie explained that he did have this awkward encounter about two months before all this vandalism even started. And remember, he's being questioned about Bob. So he's kind of still thinking, okay, was there anything weird with Bob at the same time? And he said, yes, the only thing he can remember is that Bob approached him. He's working on Joy's car in the front driveway, and he knew that Charlie was a contractor. So he's asking him in a way where Charlie could tell this was not legit what he wanted him to do.

He wanted him to submit, like, fake invoices, contractor invoices to his insurance company as part of like a fraudulent thing, like a scheme to defraud his insurance company. Of course, Charlie refused, like outright. And that's why he was kind of surprised that Joy was. was still keeping in touch with April, because he told his wife about this. After the Atkins moved out, Joy was still hanging out with April. They weren't the nicest or the most respectable people, so I guess that kind of shocked Charlie.

And what it insinuated was that maybe Bob was mad that Charlie wouldn't lie and make these fake invoices, but they weren't sure that all this was relevant. So they spoke to the kids. They spoke to Angie first. They asked her for a list of her. friends, acquaintances, classmates, all first and last names, because they wanted to get to the bottom of whether a kid had done some of the vandalism. They interviewed kids from Spencer Drive, from the

school, anyone that could have any reason to target this family and nothing serviced. No one came forward. No one had a grudge. There wasn't any kind of school drama. You know, sometimes teenagers, they start dating and they get upset, their emotions are running high, and maybe they would throw a rock or a brick through window, but no. And then they interviewed David. Remember, he's 12. He's still stunned. He's still scared. He's in this new reality where he doesn't feel safe anymore. And before detectives even went in, Charlie had pulled him aside and told him something simple. He said, tell them everything. Don't hold anything back. And that was good advice. I think David would have been honest anyway, but he listened to his father. And when the detectives asked David,

who could have wanted to hurt his mom? He didn't even have to strike him. He didn't even have to struggle to think of the name. He didn't have to guess or put a list of maybes together. He instantly said, Bob Atkins. So here's Bob again. That doesn't seem like a coincidence. Unless maybe, maybe Charlie said something to David like, hey, they're talking about Bob, and the Monte Carlo came up and now they're thinking even more. But why Bob? Well, David said he witnessed something that concerned him. It happened a few weeks before his mom's murder. David overheard his mom, his mom on the phone with Bob, he recognized Bob's voice. He said his mom was in the kitchen, holding the receiver away from her ear because Bob was yelling so loudly it filled up the entire room.

David could clearly hear the volume, the anger, and the way that it made Joy visibly shake. And after the call, David asked his mom, what's going on? And Joy actually told him. She said, listen, parents, adults, they sometimes, you know, like a glass of water. They also smoked weed. And I bought some weed from Bob and April. And when I opened the bag, I was surprised and disappointed that it was junk. It was stems and seeds. It couldn't even be used.

And she genuinely felt ripped off. So she simply called Bob. They're supposed to be friends. And she asked for her money back. She thought at the very least April would understand. But Bob, Bob was the one who had an issue with it. He took it personally. He thought that she was saying, you sell crap, your product isn't quality, and that's not what he wanted going around.

I already explained, this dude had a short fuse. He was very impatient, and now I guess he was feeling personally attacked, and he went off on joy. And you really can't do much when you lose money in a transaction like that. But Bob exploded. And David said he recalled that Bob threatened his mom, even saying, I'll kill you, and I'll blow up your house. And I'm thinking, wow. Now his mom's dead and a fire had been started in their home? That seems very specific.

But here's what's worse. Joy begged David not to tell his dad. Not because she was trying to protect Bob, but because she was protecting their peace. Joy was always the one trying to keep everything together, not wanting to escalate anything. And she was really worried that Charlie was going to go confront Bob. And that would be a confrontation that could get so ugly so fast. So David stayed quiet. He kept that secret because his mom told him to.

And then David said, that's when the vandalism started. So he wondered if it was connected. Well, there was another neighbor, Sharon Meccas, and she lived right behind Bob and April. She was also interviewed when they were canvassing the neighborhood, and she said that something stood out. She was the mom of five children. She lived with her husband right behind Bob and April,

and they had this fence you could kind of see through. One afternoon, she's cleaning up some branches, and some of them felt from her backyard into Bob's. He was out there. He took the branches, and he literally threw them back on Sharon's property, like violently, aggressively threw them back over. Almost like he was doing it in a threatening manner. But that's not all.

She was standing there, and he knew that. And he went off on her. And he threatened to kill her and blow up her house. Again, pretty specific. Sharon didn't even know Joy. She knew no one in the Hibbs family, but when she heard, the Joy had been murdered and her house was on fire, that incident between her and Bob stood out,

so she went to detectives.