True Crime with Kimbyr - Part 2: College Killing - What Happened In Apt. 9?! | Mindy Morgenstern DEEP DIVE

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

The investigation into Mindy Morgenstern’s tragic final moments continues. In Part 2 of True Crime with Kimbyr, Kimbyrleigha dives deeper into the evidence, the questions left behind, and the shocking details surrounding what happened inside Apartment 9. As a promising student’s future was stolen, the search for answers reveals a case filled with mystery, heartbreak, and unanswered questions. Who was responsible, and what clues were hidden in plain sight? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Now it was time to track down Ralph Walters, the guy living in the mobile home who frequently came into Mindy's work. They call him in and he tells detectives he's somewhat of a drifter, his words. He has no ties to the area. And this guy came off very odd. They wanted to know if he remembered anything about what he was doing on Wednesday the 13th that stuck out to him. He said he knows that that was the day he changed the oil on his motor home. But he did not have a solid alibi. They also noticed a mark on one of his hands, just like what the other two men.

So they inquire about it. Ralph says, oh, that happened on Wednesday when I was putting the oil in. It's so interesting. He just happened to have a cut from the oil filter. James had one from busting in a window. Robert has cuts from work. I almost never get cuts. So for me, it's peculiar.

But then I guess if you're working with your hands, it's not really that uncommon. I just thought it was interesting. The detectives asked Ralph about whether he had any run-ins. at the restaurant or if there were any complaints about him. And he goes, no, I don't recall ever harassing anyone or having any issues. He said he didn't even have a clue who Mindy was. But that's not what her co-worker said. They said he was in there all the time. He had to have seen Mindy there. He gives his DNA sample just like everyone else did. They don't clear him, though. They keep people of interest on their list until their DNA is officially rolled out. Now that they've spoken to every

individual who stood out as suspicious, they have to move on to everyone close to Mindy, starting with her current boyfriend Jordan Raynum. This is all happening within the first 48 hours after Mindy was found. And you know, they always look at the people that are closest to the victims. Jordan was from a local farming family. He and Mindy had been in a relationship for over a year now. And he was a good guy. He was soft-spoken, clean cut, church-going, doesn't mean much. But, From all accounts, everyone said they didn't suspect he would do anything like this. In his spare time, he loved driving around and showing off his brand new Corvette, and he proudly drove Mindy around in it all the time.

He spent a lot of time with her. He liked to take her to visit his family. Everyone had good things to say about Jordan, except Jason had a suspicion. Even though everyone said, no, I couldn't see him doing it. Jason's like, you know, he's pretty possessive of Mindy. There were times when she was trying to spend time with her family on her farm, and he would come around unannounced, sort of unhappy that she wasn't with him, and he would try to take her away. There was one time he remembered where Mindy blatantly had to tell him, please leave me alone.

So they brought Jordan in. They wanted him to take them through the night before, and then during the day that Mindy was murdered. He told investigators, the couple went to stop and go store to get something to drink that evening, and then they went to rent a movie. Remember those days? I still love that. I think Blockbuster might be coming back. But then he left. And then the next morning, when Mindy woke up, she called him at exactly 10.45 a.m. The thing is, they only spoke once, and that wasn't normal.

He said she usually called him about 10 times throughout the day. Jordan said he was working on his family farm all day long and that he never heard from Mindy again. The investigators asked him if he would agree to a DNA sample and a polygraph. And this guy was distraught. The entire interview, he was crying, he was trying to hold his composure. And during this polygraph, I mean, he couldn't even hold it together. He just lost his girlfriend. It would be really hard to sit through questions like that.

Questions like, did you harm Mindy and cause her death? So his results inconclusive. He told the examiner, this is just too stressful for me. But was it that or was it something else like guilt? At the end of his interview, he told investigators that he loved Mindy. He was in love with her. He gives them a sample of his DNA. and again they wait. I know this is a lot, but this is nothing compared to all of the interviews

that were carried out in this case. I'm just highlighting ones that I found to be important or relevant or the ones that had the most information to gain. But this is a daunting task, and they still really have no leads. But on day three, there's a break in this case. This one threw me for a loop. While analyzing Mindy's phone, investigators find very disturbing voice messages. that somebody was leaving for her, and the weirdest ones were actually left for her after her murder. There were a number of these calls and messages. It wasn't just like one isolated incident. There were a lot of them, and it's a man's voice on these recordings.

Here's part of one of those messages. He says, you know my number, sweetie. I miss you. I love you. You're my inspiration. Please help me. Please help me, Mindy. And he was crying at this point in the message.

He goes on to say, I can't continue. without you. Please help me in some way. Help me. This was too strange for investigators to ignore. Who was this man? So they traced the call to a guy named Rodney Kuznia. Well, the last name was familiar to investigators because Mindy's family and friends mentioned that one of Mindy's ex-boyfriends was Kyle Kuznia. The one that she met when she was a freshman. Remember him? He was homecoming king. He broke her heart two years ago. They had been in a serious relationship and Kyle wanted to break up. But wait. this because this was crazy Rodney is Mindy's ex-boyfriend Kyle's father. That was the man's voice that you just heard. That's Kyle's dad. He was exchanging a ton of calls with Mindy and it was

mutual. They were both calling one another quite a bit. So investigators are stunned. It seems very odd that an ex's dad would be in contact with Mindy in this manner saying the things that he did. It didn't add up to them. Rodney becomes their prime suspect at this point. It's not uncommon in so many cases that a murder will call the victim after they commit the murder to make it look like, oh, they were unaware that the victim is deceased. It's a way for them to build an alibi, Jodi Arias, anyone. She was the queen for post-mortem phone voice messages. Remember that? He says, Mindy, it's Rod. I know what happened to you. I just love hearing your voice. And again, he's crying. And then he says, I can't take it. I love you, kid. God picked a beautiful

flower. I'm sorry this happened the way it happened to you. Just wow, he seemed completely infatuated with her. And it was obvious to the detectives that this man wanted more than a friendship. He wanted something romantic. First, they want to bring in his son Kyle. They want to start there because that's where this connection was made. Mindy and Rodney knew each other from Mindy dating Kyle. So they needed to bring Kyle in anyway because he's another person of interest on their list at the time. Mindy's friends had told them she still had feelings for Kyle, but Kyle was the one that wanted to end everything. And Kyle was actually planning on marrying somebody else now. So that relationship was completely over in Kyle's mind.

And unlike his father, Kyle did not keep in contact with Mindy after their breakup. The relationship lasted about two and a half years and they'd been broken up for a while now. So would he have a reason to be involved, they didn't know. But they had to rule him out just like everyone else. Kyle explained what we already know about how they met and everything in the relationship. However, he did mention the relationship was rocky, which was one thing that they were quite surprised about considering all the good things that they heard from everyone else. He described the relationship as really tough on him.

It was hard. They were always arguing. And it got worse after Kyle graduated. He moved an hour away, like I had said, and Mindy was paranoid. She thought that Kyle was going to find another girl. even though he kept reassuring her, I'm not, I'm with you, that's not going to happen. But after a while, the long distance just wasn't working for them. Ever since the breakup, he hasn't been in contact with her.

However, about seven months ago, Mindy showed up at his apartment unannounced. And Kyle admitted he wasn't happy about it. He was dating someone else by then, and he didn't have anything to say to Mindy. So when she showed up, he let her know that. He told her to leave. Mindy stood there in tears, but Kyle, he didn't back down. Now he's telling the investigators he wished he would have handled that situation differently, and he hadn't spoken to her since.

The investigators check into Kyle's alibi, and it's true, he was out of town for work on the day of Mindy's murder, so he was not involved. Now they want to focus their questions on what he knows about Mindy and his father. What kind of relationship did they have? Kyle immediately lets them know he was not okay. with his dad keeping in touch with Mindy. He actually told him he didn't want him talking to her. Kyle figured it was better to get them to stop now before they formed an even closer bond. He had a woman in his life he was planning to marry, so he kept thinking, let's say 10, 20 years

down the line, if they're still talking, that's going to be weird. Kyle had moved on and he felt it was inappropriate for his father to maintain this relationship with his ex. He also added, he knew that she was getting information about him from his dad. He was aware that they would still talk and his dad would say things like, you know, Mindy's doing this, Mindy's feeling this way, you know, she wants to know what's going on. And Kyle didn't care. He didn't like that his dad was sort of being a messenger. As a matter of fact, Kyle explained his relationship with his father was strained because of the contact he had with Mindy. It was ruining his relationship with his dad. This was a situation where Rodney would call Mindy multiple times a day, even come visit her.

Kyle felt like his dad had a very unhealthy attachment to her. He asked his dad, what is it going to take for you to stop talking to her? And by the way, Kyle's mom and dad are still married. So this is a married man in contact with the ex-girlfriend of his son. It's strange. Kyle's mom does find out about these calls. And she's very upset. She confronts Rodney.

And she says, you know, that's wrong. You're married and you're talking to this younger gal. And Kyle agreed. So at this point, they let Kyle go. And they start to question Mindy's friends about Rodney. They told the investigators that, Mindy saw Rodney as a father figure. It was not romantic in her eyes.

It was a way for her to keep tabs on Kyle, the person that she really wanted to be with. However, as time went on, she got into this new relationship with Jordan, and Mindy had mentioned that she kind of wished that Rodney would stop calling. One reason, because it made Jordan feel uncomfortable. It was inappropriate, but Mindy was too nice to say anything. But now investigators are wondering,

did Mindy finally have the courage to tell him to stop? Maybe it made him angry enough to do something drastic. They finally bring Rodney in and confront him about everything that they've uncovered. The investigators start questioning him right away about what his relationship with Mindy was like. They said, we don't quite understand it, Rodney. He said, well, you have to know Mindy to understand it because she was quite the bubbly character. And then he said this. Mindy reminded me so much of my wife in her younger days.

Okay, is that strange? I couldn't really tell. It's like if she reminds him of his wife, then it does seem like that's romantic in nature. He explains that it started out that they would just keep in touch once and a while, like once, maybe twice a week, but it was really hard to catch her. She was a really busy person. So he would leave her a message and then it was kind of like back and forth. At first they would chit chat mostly about Kyle asking things like, you know, whether she still had a chance with him,

what he was doing like her friends mentioned, keeping tabs. But from this, they developed a friendship. and they began talking about a lot of other things. They even talked after Rodney's wife found out, except in his version, his wife didn't care at all. He said, oh, it's nothing serious. You know, I just told my wife it's a friend, and I really needed a friend.

So he said, are you really going to take my friend away from me? It's very interesting. According to Rodney, even Kyle understood his relationship with Mindy because he said, Kyle asked him, are you still talking to Mindy? And he told him yes. And he said Kyle's response was, well, if it was that important to you, then I guess it's fine.

But that's not what Kyle told investigators. Rodney does admit at one point that Mindy kind of questioned whether they should end their little chit chats, but Rodney couldn't let go. He says besides, he straight up asked her, should I just stop calling you? And she said, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that. He says if she would have told him to stop, he would have had to let her go. But then out of nowhere, Rodney was like, you know, I'm telling you guys a lot of things here, probably shouldn't have, you know, my wife might divorce me over it. Like what? Well, of course,

investigators were curious too. So they said, tell us what you mean, Rodney. And he's like, well, you know, I was meeting with Mindy. They would go out for meals together and he was even giving her money. He had just seen her before the murder. And he said he gave her $100 because she was supposed to be flying down to her brother's wedding in Washington. And she was short on cash. Rodney let the investigators know that at first, Mindy didn't want to accept the money. But Rodney insisted saying that he tried to scare her by saying, if you don't take it,

I'm going to go spend it on booze at the bar. And Mindy didn't want that for Rodney. So she took it. And she thought it was a 20. But then when she opened it up and noticed it was $100 bill, she's like, no, no, no, you cannot give me this. He's like, that's your money. I'm just trying to help you out.

He told her she was like a little daughter to him, and he'd help his daughter in the same way. Well, after hearing, this. Investigators are actually even more suspicious of Rodney. He's keeping secrets from his wife. He's making special trips. He's giving Mindy money. Not to mention the odd messages. So they ask him about those messages he left from Mindy. He admits he found out she was murdered and he called. He left those messages and he knows it's stupid, but he really just wanted her to pick up again. So they asked, what did you tell her? He repeats the same messages we heard that God picked a perfect

all that. He said, I just wanted to hear her voice again. And now for his alibi. He tells them he was working on his farm from early morning to the evening and that he left after his wife went to work, which is around 7.30 a.m. He drove two miles out to his farm and met his son Kirk. He gave them a minute-by-minute account of his day and they'd have to check it all out. He also agreed to a DNA sample and they let him go for now. Yes, the message. were strange. But when I heard them, I did start to think they kind of sounded like someone that was grieving who wanted to hear her voice. And she did have one of those voice recordings where it actually said, hey, it's Mindy. It wasn't a pre-recorded bot with saying like leave a message

for blah, blah, blah, blah. So maybe it is strange, but not as strange as we thought. I wasn't sure. It was definitely odd to have an ex-boyfriend's dad keeping in touch. That's for sure. But did he kill her? Well, he's a person of interest for sure. Until they checked to his alibi and realized he was 200 miles away eating with his family at the time that Mindy was murdered. The community is on edge. Women are afraid in their own homes. No one wants to go out. They're afraid someone will follow them back to their place and it'll be a repeat of what happened to Mindy. It's really frightening. And it made me think about something. Men. Do men feel the same fear in these instances? And I don't mean to be offensive and I hope no one would take it that way.

But I wonder about this because I can tell the differences between men and women, at least the ones in my life. I've had boyfriends in the past who never locked their doors and it would shock me. But I also have a father that was in prison when I was growing up. So he would tell me stories. And once I was old enough to understand everything, he would warn me about my safety. So I did have a different perspective. Still, do men fear the same things women do? I think not.

Because women are killed for their bodies all the time by men. So I could be wrong, but anecdotally, I've seen a difference between the way a man and a woman reacts to these sort of crimes. It's sad. So many women in the small community were fearful. They thought they would be next, especially Mindy's friends. They no longer felt safe in their community. Ashley said she couldn't even take a shower or be alone or do the simplest task anymore because she thought that someone would be waiting for her right behind that shower curtain. Not just Mindy's friends were afraid.

Residents of the apartment were afraid. They wanted answers. Some of them didn't even want to live there anymore. The Valley City PD held a press conference and they told the community to be careful, to be aware of their surroundings, that they were still looking for the person who did this. The last homicide in that city was in 2003.

It was a triple homicide of Sharon Hatcher, she was 42 years old, her 16-year-old daughter, April, and her 21-year-old friend Michael Barnett. All three of them were shot to death and another man in the neighborhood was shot, but he survived the ordeal. The person responsible was Daniel Jansen.

He was a former Valley City bar owner and Sharon's ex-boyfriend who apparently had jealousy issues. He said he snapped one night when he was doing drugs. He went over there and went crazy. Wow. And now there's Mindy. The detectives followed up on more than 200 leads and dozens of people came forward and were interviewed.

And they had no suspects. Mindy's parents felt suspended in time. They felt like the world didn't exist. The only thing they could think about was Mindy. Nothing else mattered. They wanted answers, and waiting was so hard. They wanted to know details about her case, but I'm sure you know,

police have to keep these things quiet. The parents weren't given much information, but the news came in from the crime lab that they were able to create a DNA profile from that tissue underneath Mindy's fingernails. Now, they could compare it to all of those DNA samples that they were collecting. And then they could run it through CODIS to see if they got any hits.

Six days after the murder at 2 p.m. Tuesday, September 19th, Mindy's family held her funeral in the hometown of New Salem in the high school gym, where she used to wear the number 24 jersey playing basketball. They chose this location due to the number of people who said they wanted to attend. They had a thousand people or more at this service. They knew that was not going to be feasible at the church. Their service was led by Mindy's service. brother-in-law Jason. He was a pastor. He had the right words to say and he knew Mindy so well.

A basketball was placed in the hoop above the pastor's head and they nodded the strings at the end so that the ball would stay in place as a symbol of the sport that Mindy loved so much. Everyone was crying. It was hard on all of her loved ones. And the police were actually there under cover. They were on scene scoping out all of the guests in there to protect the family because they didn't know who was targeted. So as people are there to pay their respect, there's a sense of fear over them. They're afraid of what could happen to Mindy's family. Mindy's father was paranoid and he said he would be

until they caught who did this. Mindy was laid to rest in Graceland Cemetery in New Salem. Many people who loved Mindy came forward to speak about her and the memories they had. Doug Peters, the athletic director for the university, said that he and Mindy became very good friend shortly after he came to the university in 2004 as the director. She was always so bubbly.

She didn't just walk into a room, she bounced into a room. She was close to his family and loved his daughters. He said she was one of the nicest people he had ever met. She really loved kids. And she's someone that he hopes his daughter will be like one day. Mindy's boyfriend Jordan spoke as well. He said, I don't think anyone could have met her and said hello to her and forgotten her. And I hope that they didn't because if they did, they missed out on someone special. There's a heart-shaped garden that was created in Mindy's memory out in Valley City. It's a place where her loved ones can come to remember her. A day after the funeral on September 20th,

investigators get their biggest lead yet. A DNA match to what they retrieved from Mindy's fingernails, but it's from an unsolved case from Fargo, North Dakota, dating back two years from 2004. A semen sample was taken from a woman who claimed that a man had forced himself on her against her will. At the time, they couldn't find a match, and she described the man who hurt her

As a black male, he was muscular, over six feet tall, and over 200 pounds, probably in his late 20s, maybe early 30s. Well, the investigators on Mindy's case want to go talk to this woman. So they drive out to Fargo, and she agrees to me with them. She was only 22 and a college student when she was attacked. She was studying to become a teacher. She said one night she was out celebrating with a few of her friends, and they went to a concert and a fair, and then they went out to a bar to drink. And the last thing she remembered was getting some water and telling her.

her friend, she would be right back. She was going to the restroom. But she didn't come back. She had been drugged. She woke up with a strange man on top of her in a place she had never been. She was actually pinned down on her stomach and he was behind her with his hand over her mouth so she couldn't scream. She tried to fight, but he was twice her size and very strong. She actually thought that she was going to die that night. But he did let her go. He told her there was a cab waiting outside. She didn't even have shoes on. She was terrified. She was worried that he was going to chase her down and kill her. So she screamed while she ran down that hallway until someone let her inside one of the rooms. I think it was a hotel that she was at. And she fell down in front of them

just screaming and crying for them to call 911. She was taken to a hospital nearby where they did a vaginal swab. She had bruises all over her thighs and other parts of her body. The nurse examiner said this was the worst case of its kind that she had ever seen. And the victim said he was going to kill me they were able to get a sample of this DNA but it never matched to anyone until now this poor girl had lost hope over the last couple years she was destroyed she couldn't go out in public without feeling terrified of what would happen it was devastating she was finally starting to heal she graduated from college she became a teacher and now she just gotten this call that the DNA in her case matched the one in Mindy's murder that was shocking

but not as shocking as this next piece of information they'd been given. All of their prime suspects were ruled out, Kyle's dad, the guy from the mobile home, the neighbor who checked her pulse with the back of his hand, and everyone else on their list that gave DNA samples. But now they had a description. They were still waiting. They were still collecting DNA samples. But now they could concentrate their efforts on anyone with these specific attributes

of the person who hurt the victim in Fargo. Tall, dark, muscular. Well, there weren't that many people. people that many spent time with that matched that description, but there was someone in the building who did. On the basement level, he already spoke to investigators and willingly came down to the station to give them a sample of his DNA. He was also someone they knew. Remember Mo Gibbs, the 34-year-old correctional officer, husband of that pregnant woman Chrissy? They didn't have a reason to believe they needed to look into him any further. They already knew a lot about the couple. They had met a couple

years ago after Chrissy had recently got out of a relationship and she found out she was pregnant with her first daughter. Mo stepped up. He cared for her during her pregnancy even though it wasn't his child and he was great with Tiana. He treated her like it was his own daughter. They had opposite schedules. He worked at night at the jail and so he would watch Tiana during the day when Chrissy was at work. Soon after Tiana was born, Chrissy got pregnant with Mo's baby and they just got married in June of this year and they were expecting their first child in the next couple months. Sergeant Swenson really did not want to point fingers at someone just because he was one of the few people

who matched the description of a man who attacked a woman in Fargo a couple years before. Moe wasn't perfect. They knew he came from a large family that his parents were very young when they had him. His mom was like 15. His dad was 20 at the time. And he grew up in a rough area.

He had been involved in gangs, even became a Crips gang member. growing up in California. But he changed his life around when he went into the Navy. Then he played college basketball and had been married and divorced and then had moved out to North Dakota to be closer to his mom. And now he helped keep bad guys behind bars. Moe was one of the local law enforcement officials who were just honored at a September 11 breakfast in Valley City. This was just a few days before Mindy's murder. He was in pictures right next to the men who were working on this very case. And just the Sunday before, he had played in a softball tournament on Sergeant's

Swenson's co-ed team. He was also the coach of the third and fourth grade boys basketball team for Valley City Parks and Rec. And he'd been doing that since January until March of that year. Well, even though he's one of their own, they had to go back and make sure everything checked out. They had to make sure anyone matching the description of the man with the DNA match in Fargo had their DNA submitted to the crime lab. Finally, they get a call back with more shocking information. They got a match. And Swenson was like, who? He was shocked when he heard the name. Were they sure? The analyst is like, I retested the DNA and I confirmed. It's definitely a match. Mo.

Someone who had literally worked with them in law enforcement. This is someone close to them that they knew personally, someone they trusted. He's a correctional officer at the Barnes County Jail. How could he have done this? It didn't make sense to them. But they had to look into him. It's their job. Even if they had doubts that he had done this,

he had willingly come in just a few days ago, like all the other residents, to provide a sample of his DNA and now his DNA was matched to a case in Fargo with the 22-year-old college student and now this. So they come up with the plan because they don't want to tip him off. They said, hey Mo, we're just following up. We have a few more questions. We're just asking a couple of residents to swing by for a few minutes. Mo truly did not suspect anything. He had his one-year-old stepdaughter in tow. But the whole time, they had undercover cops. He was under surveillance. They were taking pictures and video. That's how we have this picture of him walking in with Tiana. They escort him into an interview room and he's with Tiana. The 15-month-old was just clinging

to him. It was so cute. It was definitely an emotional moment for the officers and they did have to take Tiana and put her in another room and then they began the interview. They were hoping it wasn't Mo. And I know what you're thinking. They have the DNA. It has to be him. But wait. Just wait. Because I'm telling you, this is a very interesting case. This is why I wanted to do it. I'm not a scientist. If you are, I definitely urge you to leave a comment so we can better understand this. But when they scraped and clipped Mindy's fingernails, they were able to get only 41.2 nanograms of DNA. And not all of that belonged to Mo. I don't want to get into all of this right now.

But DNA is considered to be more reliable than any other kind of crime scene evidence. This is exactly why DNA samples of suspects are collected by law enforcement officers, even from people who are the least bit connected. DNA is so much more reliable than any other evidence. Also, it can be collected and then it can be stored so it can be compared to future or past crimes. However, if you've been watching CSI on trial, I talked about it a couple weeks ago

when I did a sponsorship with CuriosityStream, this is not sponsored, this part of my video, not at all, but I will leave my coupon code below in case you want to sign up because I am obsessed with this new show. It literally calls out all the flaws in crime scene investigations. And I've been stunned by what I'm learning.

But I'll save all that until we hear what Mo has to say. So let's get into it. Officers want to lock down Mo's whereabouts between 1230 and 1 p.m. That small window. Where was he? First, they asked him the obvious. Do you know, Mindy? He said, yeah, I'm familiar with her.

You know, I know she's a resident. Saw her come and go. And then he says in the day of the murder, he left the apartment around 1130 a.m. He went to lunch with Tiana and Chrissy. He thinks they finished around 1235. He drops her off nearby at work. He goes back to his apartment with Tiana.

It's apartment one on the basement floor. He thinks he probably got home around 1245. That's the exact time frame that they think Mindy was killed. He said he didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. He was busy packing up moving boxes, but he did mention the smell of disinfectant. He said that at the time he thought it was probably the manager of the building cleaning an apartment upstairs.

He was only there for maybe 10 minutes because he was packing up a truck full of their moving boxes and taking them to his in-laws. He said he made one of those trips and he thinks he was there for about an hour. Then they asked him, when do you think you last saw Mindy? And he answered, it was probably like a week before her murder. They asked him, have you ever been inside her apartment? And he says, well, one day I saw her coming home and she was holding her pants, a laundry basket, and a book bag.

So I asked her if she needed a hand and she said, sure. So I helped her take it up to her apartment, but that was it. That's the only time he'd ever been to her apartment. Wow. The detectives are stunned. He just described the crime scene, a scene that they had never released any information about. No one else knew what was behind the door to apartment nine, but somehow Mo. Someone that said that he didn't really know, Mindy, didn't have any connections to her.

Now he says he had been inside her apartment before. and he just recreated the exact scenario that they believe happened on the day she was murdered. That's exactly what happened in their minds and mine after looking through those crime scene photos. That's why I showed you and described them to you. Her whole apartment is tidy except for those clothes scattered around. Clean clothes. They had a communal laundry room downstairs and this was an opportunity to catch Mindy in a vulnerable position. Her hands were full.

She's unable to fight. ambushed and pushed inside, but why? It seems like Moe is looking for a reason for his DNA to be inside her place, an excuse, for any connections that they may find. So they ask him if he would take a polygraph just to rule him out, since now he's admitted to going inside her place. And they just want to clear him. At least that's what they said.

Even though polygraphs cannot be admitted in courts, they can sometimes scare someone into telling the truth. So they pressed him further during the polygraph asking, did you injure Mindy and cause her death? To which he replied no. And of course, they asked him a number of other questions. And of course, following the tactic, the examiner lets him know that there were signs that he had been deceptive. And now they wait to see a few breaks. The examiner's like, you know, it seems to indicate there's something bothering you about the situation. So let's try to resolve it. To which Mo says, he doesn't know anything about it

because he wasn't there. Now the detective, uses his biggest piece of evidence to see what Mo's going to say. He said, what do you know about DNA? And Mo says nothing. The detective says, what if I told you that your DNA was found on Mindy's body? And Mo kind of scoffs. He says, well, I would tell you that's not true because I wasn't there. Now, there are agents watching Mo's interview from another room and they noticed that he's not really getting scared. He doesn't seem worried. He actually seems pretty calm. So the detective, The detective straight up tells him, we found your DNA under Mindy's fingernails. At this point, he looks frustrated.

He says, well, I don't know how my DNA is under her fingernails. That's when the examiner says, well, you can't argue with science. And I want to stop for just a minute because we can argue with some science because there are advances all the time. Like I told you, I've been watching that CSI on trial and it is incredible. is not an exact science ballistics, not exact. These investigations, they're not perfect. Footwear impressions, bite marks, the list goes on. What's crazy is that technology moves forward and the law looks towards the past. The law looks towards precedent that's already been set and it's very

hard to change the mind of the court. Not to mention that these so-called experts that I've actually always trusted until recently, I mean, I used to want to be an expert witness. That's why I studied what I did. I had dreams of making that my job. But I see now that a lot of them care about their reputations. That's how they make the big bucks. So of course, they side with the prosecution or the defense because that's why they were hired. Because they believe that they can make a case out of all the evidence in the direction of whatever side wants it to lean. And in the CSI on trial show, they showed that these experts even went so far as to fabricate, meaning to lie about their research, to lie about the results. And that ended up putting

an innocent person behind bars and worse to death. So I'm actually in limbo on what I believe. I know I don't trust polygraphs. I know they're just a tool to scare people. I don't trust much circumstantial evidence. So you got to personally give me more. And that more is usually DNA. At this point, the examiner tells Mo that he's going to let him in on something else. He says your DNA matches an unsolved case from two years ago out in Fargo where a woman was forced to have intercourse against her will. At this point, Moe is shaking his head. He's like, no. He denies it. He's like, I live there. I had plenty of sexual encounters, but I did not force anyone. And he tries to explain what happened. He goes, yeah, a few times I picked somebody up at a bar, went somewhere, but I know for a

fact, I never forced anyone. I even personally saw a news article where he said that he had a thing for blondes, and it could have been the more than 15 women, he recalls taking back to a hotel or somewhere back then. Essentially, he's accusing the Fargo college student of lying. Even though it was proven by a nurse that handles those type of cases, this was indeed forced, and she was shrugged and injured. And a witness saw her in that hallway before banging on the door and begging them to call the police. Seaman was tested. It was his. She described the man who did this to her and he matched Moe's description. The detective is not backing down, even with all of Moe's excuses. He tells him, the only thing that's going to help you right now is to cut your losses.

Moe was like, well, I had nothing to do with this. I know that. But they had his DNA at the crime scene. So they arrested Mo Gibbs on the spot for the murder of Mindy Morgan's turn. And this arrest shocked a lot of people. First, it shocked his family. Chrissy, his wife, could not believe it. No one wanted to believe it.

People were coming forward in his defense. And not just locally, there were people coming from all of it. over the place, different states that he had lived in basketball coaches, ex-girlfriends, colleagues from other jobs that he'd had over the years, his own family. They said there is no way. The Moe killed anyone ever. There had to be another reason for his DNA to be there. And I read so many of these articles where people who knew Mo loved him came forward and said,

he's gentle, kind, generous. And they would never believe he did this. And I had to imagine what his wife would feel like in that moment. How shocking would it be? This man was with your newborn daughter, now an infant. All alone with this man. He's hugged her and comforted her when the news spread about this murder. All along, you're telling me that he's the monster?

I would be hurt and confused and shocked. I don't know how I would deal with it. And I've said this before. You don't just stop loving someone automatically, even if you know that they did something this bad. Logically speaking, most people are going to make the decision to distance themselves, but Chrissy had a lot to think about. Her dad liked Mo.

He said that he was there that day at their apartment. He stopped by at 3.30. And Moe was completely normal. He didn't see anything wrong. No cuts or blood. And Moe wasn't acting strange. It just didn't make sense to anyone who knew him. Even Sergeant Swenson tried to get Mo to confess.

He's like, you've got kids, Mo, just like I do. What are you going to tell them when they get older? But Mo just looked at him and said, Dave, I didn't do this. When Mindy's family heard the news that someone was arrested, they were shocked. They couldn't believe that this random person, someone that Mindy would have felt safe around, because remember, she mentioned moving there and feeling comfortable because there were law enforcement presence. The arrest brought even more questions than answers. One thing was Mo didn't appear to have any scratches on his hands.

On September 18th, he came in and gave that DNA swab. However, when they looked at his hands again when he was arrested, they did notice two scratches. One was on his right wrist, which looked shallow and almost healed over. I'm going to show it to here. And the other one was on the back of his left hand, and that one was kind of deep. It wasn't completely healed yet. So they asked him, what happened? He said he cut himself while moving boxes on September 14th.

And again, when putting his stepdaughter into her car seat on the 15th, both days were after the murder. I looked at the cuts and I'm not an expert. So I went and found some samples online of what defensive scratches look like, and you know what? know what? They do look similar. Here they are side by side so you can get an example and Mo was very strong. I don't think Minnie would have had much of a chance to do that much damage to him. I don't want you to think this is over. I told you there were things that I have to mention and they're coming

up. I did so much research into this because I go into these cases in time sequence. I read articles in the order they're happening and I also started questioning the science. Not about the Bessal and Fargo. I knew Mo did that. But considering Mindy did not appear to the detectives to have been attacked in the same way, she was fully clothed and stabbed, I just wanted to look a little more into it, to do my due diligence, just like the DA and the defense were doing at the same time. Soon, I got so many different pictures of who Mo Gibbs was, or who he was before he got to Valley City. When they started looking into his background, they were able to find out He actually changed his name.

It used to be Glenn Dale Morgan Jr., his birth name. He changed it to Mo Maurice Gibbs. And this change took place August 15, 2005. But why? The court records indicated his reason was his father had abandoned him as a child and he was never part of his life. So he no longer wanted to be known by his last name.

This new name had an origin story too, one that set a pattern in motion in my research. girls his weakness women sex blondes as he put it seemed to be his Achilles heel where it stemmed i can't be sure but as he said his father abandoned him as a child his father a child himself at only 20 when he was born and his mom diane gravely only 15 maybe it was mommy issues but mo seemed to cling on to women the thing that he appeared to like the most was the honeymoon phase as people like to call it, the beginning of a relationship, the excitement, the newness, being the prince charming and coming to women's rescue. Sweeping them off their feet, many of them

had very positive things to say about Mo. But as soon as he would show up in their lives, he would leave sometimes without warning, many times leaving pregnant girlfriends, fiancée's, and even wives behind. Never hearing from him again for the most part. And this intrigued me. Ladies man is an understatement. I couldn't wait to get to this part. I was in my kitchen last night telling my boyfriend all the details, and I felt like you were my best friends that I was waiting to spill all of the juicy tidbits to. So Moe was born Glenn Morgan, as I said, his legal name,

and he was born August 10th, 1972 in Atwater, California. He was raised by his maternal grandmother, and then he got into gang life as a teenager. He was getting into a lot of trouble, and he was given the choice to either go to jail, go to boot camp, or go into the military, and he decided to straighten his life out, and go into the Navy in 1990 when he was 18 years old.

In 1991, he got married. The woman's name was Tasha McGraw. She was also serving in the Navy with him. However, while he was married and living on the naval base in Washington, he would frequently go out to nightclubs in Seattle, and that's where he met Cheryl Goh. She was visiting one night from British Columbia across the border, and she had no idea that Moe was married.

He acted like a perfect gentleman, and they hit it off, and they started doing. Now here's where the pattern emerges. Mo told Cheryl he wanted a family. He wanted a wife and children. He was acting as though he was completely single and he didn't have those things yet. And after a few months of dating Cheryl, she called his house and a woman answered. She told Cheryl that she was his wife. So Cheryl pretty bummed out at this point, not knowing that she had just been duped, she decides not to be an intimate relationship with Mo anymore. And then he seemed to vanish. Well, there was a reason for that.

On May 9, 1992, Mo was arrested in connection to an attempted premeditated murder, a drive-by that happened outside of a nightclub in Seattle. He apparently got into a fight with some guys inside and allegedly shot out of the window hitting an innocent woman named Vonette Young, right in the pelvis. He initially stated that he wasn't the one holding the gun,

but the trial happened in April of 1993, and his wife, Tasha, was pregnant at the time. She gave birth in October of that year. And there are varying accounts. Some say he took a plea deal and pleaded guilty to attempted murder. Others say the military court proved that it was him. Either way, he was sentenced to 10 years at the United States disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, starting January of 1994. I found his sister, Brissetta, her name is Breeze for short, her blog. And one of them is about Moe, about his. military prison record. She said that he was a model prisoner. He stayed out of trouble and he promised

he would never go back to prison again. He only served five and a half years of his 10 year sentence and he was transferred from Kansas in April 1998 to facilities in Oklahoma City, Springfield, and Phoenix, and then finally released in June of 1999. So I had to know more. And I don't want to bore you with every little tiny detail, but I'm telling you when you hear some of this other stuff that's coming up in this case, your jaw will be on the floor. There are just no words. While he was serving time, he divorces Tasha on September 4th, 1997. All the while, he's writing letters to Cheryl, remember her, the girl from the club, and he explains, you know, the gun accidentally went off. That's what he said happened. So she trusts

him. He says he wants to turn his life around. He wants a family, all those same things. After getting out of prison, he was sent to a halfway house in San Diego, California for four months. But once that was over, he drove to British Columbia. to start a new life with Cheryl. She worked at a bank at the time, so he was basically Mr. Mom. Cheryl already had a son from a previous relationship, and Mo treated him like his own child.

While Cheryl was at work, he cooked, he cleaned, he picked her up from work, dropped her off, ran all their errands, and she said he wasn't afraid to work hard. Now, he wasn't from Canada, so apparently he couldn't legally get a job, but he did odd jobs like moving furniture for people. They finally took a road trip to Fargo, North Dakota, North Dakota in November of 1999 a few months after he got out of prison.

That's where his mom was living. He had not seen her in years. But Cheryl was really surprised by the way his mom treated him when they arrived. It was as though she was underwhelmed and she didn't care. So this is just a highlight of the way he was treated. Well, Mo lived with Cheryl over the next eight to nine months and Cheryl had gotten pregnant with his child. But when she was pregnant, she found out he was literally cheating on her with her best friend that lived five.

her best friend that live five doors down the hall. And he begged Cheryl to please, please keep him. He wanted a family with her. Not the other girl. He said he was so, so sorry, it would never happen again. Well, she didn't buy it. And she called him some really evil names, but he never became violent. He never even raised his voice. And soon, he wasn't able to live in Canada at all, no matter where he was living, because he tried coming over the border and they found out he had a criminal record so they wouldn't let him across. At that point he got a place in Bellingham, Washington, and Cheryl would meet him at a mall every so often so that he could hang out with his newborn baby girl. While living in Bellingham, he enrolled in Watcomb College and started playing college basketball in the fall of 2001

till the spring of 2002. And he was also studying medical assisting. Then he got into professional boxing. This man really was a jack of all trades and a master at maybe one, which was lying to women. He came into the Bellingham Athletic Club and he wanted to join the white cobra boxing team. The coach of the time, James Ferguson, he had trained thousands of boxers and made them into champions. He was really impressed with Mo at first because of the way he was built. He was very muscular, athletic. He was a powerhouse. He could tell he had experienced fighting and Mo said, yep, I've been in prison and I've been in gangs. But Ferguson said that Mo had a gentle side to him.

He could be a killer in the ring though. He hit a guy so hard once, the man's ankles broke. But the issue was Mo didn't have work ethic at all. He wasn't committed. Sure, he could knock someone out, but he wouldn't train like an athlete. So the coach passed on the opportunity to have Mo on his team, especially because he would kind of cry and whine if he lost a match. After Ferguson rejected Mo, he never saw him again.

It's like he vanished. But while he was working out at this gym, he met, A woman. Her name was Faye. She was an art student and she said Mo was very nice. He was quiet. He was offspoken and he acted like he was single. She had no idea. He had two children and he was actually engaged to a woman in Bellingham named Melissa. Yep. He strikes again. They got married in February of 2002 and he started dating Faye when Melissa was pregnant with his child. Does it sound familiar? That's because it's a pattern. He meets a girl, usually a single mom by the way, He has a thing for single moms.

If they already have a kid, that's better for him because he can act like Mr. Mom. Oh, he's so helpful. He's taking my other kid in like his own. Don't be fooled. He meets a girl. He acts like a gentleman. He says he wants to settle down, get married,

have a family right away. Then he gets the woman pregnant. He cheats. And the cycle starts again. He also targets college students or women who are college graduates with good jobs. This is the pattern. And by May of 2002,

Melissa was having his third child. Meanwhile, he's going out on dates with Faye, except he wasn't very social, or maybe he wasn't trying to be caught by his wife, because they would spend time at the gym, they would just practice boxing or going to play basketball at a local park. And Faye said he was very secretive. She knew he didn't like his mom and he hated his dad. But other than that, Mo really didn't talk about his background. He did tell Faye that he wanted to get married and have kids right away. Well, Faye had enough after her. about four months because he would leave for whole weekends at a time. Of course, he had another family. He wouldn't tell her where he lived. And when he returned, he would have these really outlandish

tales about how his car got stolen. That's why he was gone. And he was always supposedly in the process of moving somewhere else, which I thought was very interesting and telling. He moved around a lot. And I think I know why. Interesting that he was moving the week, Mindy was killed. When with Mo, he tried to change her mind, but he was never violent. He never raised his voice. He just disappeared from the boxing club and her life. And after the breakup, something weird happened. A couple months later, it was right before Moe's 30th birthday in August of 2002. Faye saw his old beat-up car just sitting in a grocery store parking lot. At first the car was parked there, but over time, she realized he left it there on purpose. But guess what? Faye finds out she's

pregnant with his child. She has no idea where this man went. She gives birth March 20th, 2003, a mere 10 days after another one of his girlfriends from the same area gave birth as well on March 10th. These two women were pregnant at the same time and they didn't know it. I would be mortified. They could have had the same doctor and he's still married to Melissa. Y'all. I'm telling you, I've never even heard a story like this before. Fall 2002 to spring 2003. He was still playing basketball, going to college, and working at Fast Cap Shipping Center. His basketball coach at the time said that he was definitely an older player on the team. He never had a car. He always had to get a ride, but he did maintain the 2.0 average he needed in order to play. He didn't know

much about Moe, but he did know that he carried around a military ID and he was really popular on campus. But as soon as the season ended, bam, he disappeared. And he'd never had a player do that before, just leave and not tell anyone where they were going. Fay ended up finally going to that grocery store and telling the staff, listen, that car out there, it ain't going anywhere. He abandoned it, but she also did something else. She went so far as to befriend a girl from the college that he was attending, someone that used to hang out with him, someone that knew where he was living back then. She took Fay to where she had hung out with Mo. It was a one-room, dirty little hole in the wall apartment on the border of Canada, 16 miles away.

Faye found the landlord and asked what happened. They told her that Mo just vanished, leaving everything behind, clothing, shoes. Everything was like he was still living there, but he was gone. We know Moe was in Texas, August of 2003 because he was boxing there on a professional level. He actually obtained a professional boxing license. According to the Texas Boxing Association, he was a professional licensed cruiserweight boxer weighing in at 197 pounds from August 2003 to August 2004. Again studying medical assisting at Holmark Institute of Technology. August 25th was his debut fight at the Civic Center in Humble,

Texas. Moe put down his hometown as San Antonio and his promoter at the time was this guy, Reginald McGowan. He knew Mo as a really nice guy. He would see him with his pretty brunette that he referred to as his wife, but we know his real wife, Melissa was back in Washington at the time. He went on to fight in five different states, Arizona, South Dakota, Rhode Island, Minnesota, and he lost every one of those fights. He was basically just trying to get a paycheck. That seemed to be all he cared about. Moe never met his son that he had with Fay. However, he did find out that she was pregnant and found out she had a baby. And every year on Mother's Day, he would call her or text her and say

Happy Mother's Day, and that was it. He moved to North Dakota in June of 2004, where he enrolled at Mayville State University in the spring, studying physical education, the same major as Mindy, but a different college. Faye said that he moved there because Mo's mom wanted all her kids nearby. Scott Berry was the Mayville State basketball coach, and he said that Mo was well-mannered, mature, and disciplined. He also said Mo would talk about being a professional boxer, but they did not believe him until one day they turned on ESPN, and there he was. So he does tell the truth about some things. So this brings us up to date to when the 22-year-old called a student claim that she was drugged by him at a nightclub and taken advantage of against her will. He was in North Dakota at this time.

He was actually dating a woman from North Dakota State University, which is in Fargo, the same city where the attack took place. Mo divorces his wife, Melissa, in January of 2005 because he's dating his new love that he already proposed to. He met his current love while playing. basketball, he fell in love with a woman who played basketball for North Dakota State University, and her last name was Gibbs. I told you there was an origin story to his name. Mo was still going by his legal name, Glenn Morgan. However, he had been called Moe for a very long time. It's from the MO in his last name, Morgan. When he requested a name change August 15, 2005, he took his then fiance's last name and the Moe from his given last name.

and he created Mo Gibbs. Interesting that he wanted to change his name after that attack happened. Well, the relationship with the love of his life ended, but he still took her last name. By January of 2005, he was living in Fargo and working at the Wingate Inn. He was working as a housekeeper. And there's something to that. There's something very important to that. That gave him access to rooms. If you have the key to a room, you can go in and go out. any time you want. Connect the dots. At this time is when he met Chrissy Judd, who was a student at Valley City State University. Her dad, George, was the athletic director. At the time, she was just getting out of a relationship and realized she was pregnant,

and she was about to graduate from college. Moe was there for her, even though it wasn't his baby. But he could only visit on the weekends because he had a job in Fargo. Chrissy had been working at the Wagon Wheel Inn in Valley City for a very long time, and she knew her men and and her, Hey, Mo needs a job. I want him to be able to move closer. So with Chrissy's help, he lands a job at this other hotel. After that, he was able to move in with Chrissy and out of Fargo.

Convenient. There's that usual pattern. By January of 2006, he's coaching the third and fourth grade boys basketball team for Valley City Parks and Recreation. His manager, Christy's son, was on the team that he coach. She thought he was an awesome coach. coach. The boys absolutely adored him and they were devastated by his arrest. Here's where things get very interesting because at this point, Mo wants to start working at the university. Maybe because

his fiance's dad worked there, he thought he could do what he always done in the past and get a little help getting the job, a shoe in. He applies for the job as a night security guard on campus. It requires a background check and the school believes when they're submitting someone for a background check, it's going to be a nationwide criminal background check, right? That's what you'd think, especially for a job where you're in a position of authority. But it turns out, the sheriff's office, for whatever reason, only conducted a local background check on Mo. They only searched city records. That's pretty dumb. They could see if they actually looked that he'd just move there. The point of a background check is to do just that, to check their

background where they've been before and that wasn't done. The school said they usually don't do a lot of background checks. They only request a small number of them for potential employees that would have broad access to buildings on campus. Mo gets hired at the school. This easily could have been where he first saw Mindy. Or maybe it was when she moved into his apartment building. Somehow their path crossed. And it wouldn't have been that hard. This is a small town. Mindy had a big personality. And Mo would go to a number of events. His current fiance was an alumni and her dad was the athletic director. Mo was even involved in basketball, a sport that Mindy loved.

And he resembled her idol Michael Jordan with his muscular athletic physique. They were bound to have at least had a good conversation at one point. It's definitely possible. But we've seen Mindy's exes and her current boyfriend and they definitely don't have a similar look to Mo. And it goes both ways. I know you haven't seen all of Mo's exes. but they look similar to Chrissy,

who looks very different from Mindy, so what happened? Well, there's more. I'm almost wrapping it all up for you with a big bow on top. Mo is working as a security guard at the university from February 24th to April 15th.

He's always had a thing for college students, so maybe it was his way to get close to them. But now, for whatever reason, he decides to apply for a job at the county jail. They have refused to comment about their hiring procedures, but there's no statewide policy set in place for county jails. However, there's a signed authorization form from Mo that allowed them to conduct a background check in Washington, California, Texas, and North Dakota.

When someone's finally hired at the jail, they get fingerprinted, and then those fingerprints are sent to the FBI. But the thing is, this whole process takes some time. And I don't know whether these fingerprints are ever put in Dakotas or if the military courts are different. A criminal background was never done. Not even when he requested a name change because in North Dakota, they don't require a background check.

A lot of states do. And if it would have been done, they probably wouldn't have granted the change. It's what truly threw off his background checks. They failed to look into his former name. However, it does show up when you run a check of his new name. It shows that it's been changed. However, the chief of police said

he never would have thought a name change could hide a crime. record. Sounds like someone dropped the ball. From all the articles I read, everyone was blaming someone else. I think they just gave Moe too much credit. He seemed like a nice guy. I get it. But look at Ted Bundy. Looks aren't everything. Mo begins working at the jail on May 17, 2006. This is merely months before Mindy's murder. Still, everyone who knew him during this time says he was a wonderful dad to his stepdaughter Tiana, a good fiance to Chrissy and an awesome. coach all positives did he have them all fooled he married Chrissy in the summer of 2006 on June 30th she's an artist a photographer and at the time things were going

well for them unbeknownst to Chrissy though Mo had been cheating on her he had gotten another woman pregnant at the same time again a 29-year-old woman named Amy Olson they must have been pretty serious behind Chrissy's back because in nine days after Moe was arrested on September 20th, he proposes to Amy, but he's still married. The man doesn't care. He throws women away like trash. And children, for that matter. Out with the old, in with the new, the honeymoon stage. He likes the thrill of the chase. And once he's got him hooked, he throws them back in and looks for another fish in the sea. It's cruel. Oh, and Amy already had his baby months before this in July.

A newborn baby girl named Nevea. I can't with this guy. I don't even know if Chrissy was aware that this is going on. Because Chrissy doesn't get the marriage to Mo annulled until after she gives birth. The annulment doesn't even go into effect till April 30, 2007, a year later. And it must have been a legal strategy, I think, I'm not sure. Or maybe it was to collect funds from him. But I definitely know that in order for her to testify, especially because she was

testifying against him, she had to annul the marriage. We'll get into that later. But the poor woman was still paying off their wedding rings and their photo album. It's so sad. She had close to 2,000 in expenses. What a waste. A complete waste in so many ways. But I do know this.

Amy Olson couldn't wait to be Amy Gibbs. She was standing by her man no matter what. And I need that meme queued right here because there's more. This is your man. Yes. Look at the screen. That's mine. And I'm going to stick this out.

And that's what you're going to settle for. I'm going to stick beside him. After the arrest, a woman inmate from the Barnes County Jail speaks up. She says on the morning of September 13th, the day that Mindy was killed, she was awoken at 6 a.m. to correctional officer Mo Gibbs violating her with his hand while she was sleeping. And conveniently, the cameras weren't pointing in that direction or they weren't recording that day. But this is very telling. The prosecutor now believes there is a clear motive here for Mindy's murder.

Mo's sexual frustration because he wasn't able to finish what he started that morning. She began to cause a little bit of a scene, so he stopped. She wasn't the only one. Five more women were brave enough to come forward against the one-time authority figure, and they told their stories of what he had done to them, usually while they slept on his overnight shifts. October 26, 2006, Mo pleads not guilty to the murder charges against him, And that same day, he was charged separately with six counts of gross sexual misconduct

at different because the acts were all different. All very serious offenses. By November, he pleaded not guilty to the Fargo case involving the 22-year-old victim that his DNA was linked to. In the spring of that next year, 2007, changes are legally made to the criminal background check requirements of correctional officers and other professionals in North Dakota because of most case. He has a court date in March, and guess who's there, Amy Olson with their infant daughter, making an appearance.

She said she already considered the couple married in her mind, but they have to wait until after the trial to make it official because where Moe is being held, they don't allow inmates to marry while they're waiting for trial. This woman said that the delay was frustrating, but that it feels more like a technicality because our hearts are married. She said it doesn't take paperwork to confirm someone's feelings for you. Meanwhile, jury selection is happening in this case. This man's being charged with felony murder, which he faces up to life in prison without parole. And she's talking about how she's already introducing herself as Amy Gibbs and legally changing her name. She even had Gibbs tattooed on the back of her neck and a ring with Moe's initials tattooed on her finger. She said, you don't just do that for somebody on a whim.

ma'am, that's the last name of a university student that this man fell in love with when he was married to another woman. That isn't even his real legal last name. My God, I can't. I don't even know what to think right now. Mindy's mom, she desperately wanted Mo Gibbs to apologize for taking Mindy's life. So she wrote him a letter and she never expected to get anything back. But Mo responded. He denied murdering Mindy.

He refused to take responsibility for his actions. Mo told Eunice in his letter that he worked his entire life to prove that he was a good person and wouldn't have killed Mindy. Mindy's mom was hoping that Mo would finally take responsibility for his actions and show some remorse, but instead he chose to deny any wrongdoing. The denials only added to their pain and their anger. He was unwilling to accept the consequences of his actions. Moe's attorneys get a venue change because of how much publicity this case got in the small, town of L.A. City. So they move it to Minot, North Dakota, which is over three hours away. His exes were shocked by his arrest. Sheryl said, yeah, he was a manipulative, but he was never

violent. And Faye said she was really hoping that this case against Moe was a mistake. Because as a really good person, he just had a very bad childhood. And it turned out, this wasn't the first time that people came to Moe's defense. Remember 1993? Well, the U.S. Navy prosecutor argued in his sentencing recommendation that Moe was dangerous. He was a man who needed to be put away from society for a long time. But all of Mo's friends and family disagreed. They said he was set up and that he just wouldn't rat out a friend. There were 24 letters written asking the court to grant Mo Clemency.

His mom wrote that she understood that her son might not always make the right decisions. She did not condone what he might have done. But giving him 10 years would not be justice. The letters were all about how good he was and respectful and loving. Even his wife at the time, Tasha, wrote a letter saying he was a devoted husband if she only knew. A military judicial official denied the requests for clemency. And Moe served his time. So now what?

Was this case all a big mistake? Moe's defense attorneys think so. He argued that the authorities rushed to judgment in Mindy's case because Moe's DNA was found in the Fargo case. He said that the amount of DNA collected at Mindy's scene was very insignificant. and there's doubts that exist about how it got there and how long it had been there. Was it, though? Because the prosecution said it was a significant amount, 41.2 nanograms, 75 of which, 30.8 nanograms belong to Moe,

meaning the major profile is Moes and the other belonged to Mindy herself. Plus, there was evidence that DNA belonging to Moes was found on Mindy's bloody shirt as well. Interestingly, here's what he was able to dig up as far as, Other evidence or the lack thereof. There were no usable fingerprints found on the knives, but DNA from two different males were found on those knives and inside a pair of gloves at the apartment and they didn't match Moe.

Hair samples were collected, even from Mindy's left hand, the same one where they found the tissue underneath her nails, and the hairs were never able to be linked to anyone. Not Mo's hairs either. No evidence was found in Moe's car or his apartment linking him to Mindy. A delivery man came forward and said he saw two men running from the apartment building on the day of Mindy's murder. Authorities said they looked, but they could never find them. Moe had his one-year-old stepdaughter with him that day when Chrissy was at work. So the defense

attorney questioned the logistics of this. He would have to have taken the child to the crime scene. That's what he said. Crime scene analysts said there were no signs that a baby was at the crime scene. So is that reasonable doubt? The defense also stated that the crime scene looked similar to ones that a woman perpetrator would stage. And it didn't look like the aftermath of someone the size of Mo. What he meant was there would actually have been more damage if someone his size would have done this. He went on to say that Mo's DNA was found because of transferred DNA from the communal areas of the apartment building like the door handle from the door they all shared. But like I said, there was also DNA found on Mindy's bloody shirt and Moe's DNA could not be

excluded. Here's what could have been confusing and caused doubts. The crime scene analyst, Hope Olson, same name as Mo's new fiancee, but no relation. She did agree that the small amount of Mo's DNA could be touched DNA, but it was extremely unlikely. But she said it could not be secondary transfer, meaning it couldn't come from a door, but instead it had to come from somebody in contact with Mindy. The trial began on June 19, 2007. The prosecution brought forth all the evidence that I've already mentioned, plus more. They added that Mo was an avid texter. He was texting and emailing all day constantly in his phone, even when he was at work.

When they pulled up his records, there was never a period of time where he went over an hour or hours without texting, calling, emailing, or doing something on his phone. They pulled up text messages, social media, Yahoo, MSN Messenger. He was unaccounted for for at least an hour and five minutes that day. On the day of Mindy's murder, after dropping Chrissy off at work, she texted. at him at 1233. It's this text on the screen right now. It says, can you bring me a drink, PowerAid, water, or apple juice, or Snapple, Strawberry Kiwi? At 1245, he says he dropped off a drink, and by 1247, he left her work. But that's when they also believe Mindy was killed. Her first

unanswered call was at 1247. And after that last text from Chrissy, every other text went unanswered on Mo's phone until approximately 1.30. And at that moment, a rush of them were answered. An activity went back to normal again. Also, recall the smell of pine salt beginning around one o'clock, according to witnesses. The prosecution's theory is that Mo saw his opportunity. He pushed Mindy inside her apartment and attempted to force himself on her, but she was athletic, stronger than he thought, and she fought hard. And when she fought back, things went from bad to worse, and he realized he had to take drastic steps.

He tried to strangle her with a belt. But just to make sure she was dead, he grabbed a knife from her kitchen. first knife actually breaks, so he grabs the second and tried to actually use it to cut her throat. That's a very hard thing to accomplish. He gave up pretty quickly and instead just stabbed her. Then took pine saw and poured it all over her body, hoping to get rid of some evidence. And then he fled back to his apartment. His texting and emailing started right up again. Mindy's never did. Considering he lived inside the apartment building, no one would have seen anyone running in or out. The prosecutor held up Mindy's bloody shirt.

And it was way worse than I thought. It all made sense to me. This man was guilty. But the jury didn't get to hear everything. They didn't get to hear about the motive. Nope. They didn't get to hear about his past, not at all. They were limited to what was at the crime scene and what witnesses said.

And you know how many people had good things to say about Mo. His past about the shooting, the conduct at the jail, even what he did in Fargo. None of that got in. The prosecution tried to get it in, at least maybe just what occurred on the mourning of Mindy's murder at the jail, but that was denied to. Too prejudicial, the court said. The defense had argued to the judge that there were no signs of anything sexual at Mindy's crime scene. Ultimately, the jury wasn't convinced. The evidence pointed both ways, that he could or that he could not have done it. There was reasonable doubt, and they were

deadlocked after four days. Six-six-six-a-hung jury. Mindy's family and friends were shocked, And Chrissy was terrified. She did not know if this man was going to walk the streets again, but that's not how it works. They were going to set up a brand new trial, but everything had to be redone. Former jurors actually came forward and gave prosecutors advice on what they could have done better. I didn't even know that was allowed, but one of them said they didn't put enough emphasis on the DNA under the fingernails. They needed to prove it wasn't transfer. And two, there was a problem.

At the first trial, they showed a 90-minute redacted version of Mo's interrogation before his arrest, and he had baby Tiana in his arms. It pulled that the jurors' heartstrings, and I get it, were human. The jurors said they saw how much that little girl needed him and loved him. They didn't know one bad thing about Mo because, remember, they couldn't know anything about his past, so they saw him as a good person, as a good dad. The DA knew. They needed an expert that could refute the transfer DNA theory,

and they need to exclude that video of Tiana and Mo. Once again, they tried to get the judge to let in one sexual incident at the jail on the 13th, but it was again denied. Mo's second trial began October 2007 a few months following the first one, and it was moved to Grand Forks, North Dakota, two hours away. This time, the prosecutor had more witnesses, more experts, especially to explain the amount of the DNA being significant and not being able to be transferred from a door

or him helping her take her laundry basket up to her apartment. The new expert said this amount of DNA could only have gotten there from vigorous physical contact, like scratching the arm in defense of someone trying to grab you. Moe actually wanted to hire Michael Bodden, a forensic expert, but he couldn't afford him. He's a famous doctor whose wife has her own show, Linda Kinney Bodden, the defense attorney. And Bodden usually does testify as a witness for the defense cases. So they thought they got the next best thing. A former actor that used to play a forensic scientist but then went on to own his own life.

I guess that's all they could afford. But again, the jury was deliberating for days. Finally, they came back. This time, it was guilty. Finally. I mean, to me, it was clear from everything I saw. But I could see how there could be reasonable doubt. It's hard.

Sometimes I think it's not fair that they can't know how bad these people are, like what they've done before. Eunice actually forgave Moe, saying, Mr. Gibbs, I forgive you publicly here. I also want you to know, I won't forget what you did to Mindy. But this man remained arrogant. He denied it, literally addressing the courtroom saying,

I didn't commit this crime. If and when the person who actually did this crime came to justice, I would forgive him just as she would have forgiven me. Really? You would have forgiven him? He was sentenced to life without parole. Had Moe had stayed in prison and served his full sentence for the attempted murder when he was in the Navy,

the full sentence would have not ended until April 6, 2003, possibly not giving him enough time to cross paths with Mindy at all. He did end up pleading guilty to the sexual misconduct at the county jail and to the one in Fargo. And the victim gave an impact statement at his sentencing hearing. And she said she was not very nice to him. She said he has daughters of his own. She wanted to say a lot of things than she did. She said, imagine your daughters screaming how I did on the night in 2004.

Her message that she wanted to give was that there is a life and happiness after all of this. She's married now with children of her own and she says that she's going to tell them her story and Mindy's when they're old enough. She wants to warn them. In the end, Mindy fighting back that day helped solve her own murder and the other crimes Moe committed against all of those other women. Her family said that's the way she would have wanted it. She always cared about helping others and would have made sacrifices so that others could live. That's That's exactly why she was living in that apartment building to begin with, to take the pain of those chemo infusions and hope that her sacrifice would help others survive multiple sclerosis. I know this was a long video. You like long videos. I know there was a lot of details in this video.

I thank you so very much for listening to Mindy's story. It was such a senseless death. I thank you all so very much for being here and I will see you in my next video. Bye.