TrueLife - A heroic dose, in 45 minute increments, in the sun, while running up mountains, solving mathematical equations in your head, singing out loud, and didn’t realize you forgot you haven’t been breathing! - Benjamin C. George

Episode Date: August 11, 2022

https://benjamincgeorge.com/ https://benjamincgeorge.com/product/no-absolutes-a-framework-for-life/ Ladies and gentlemen today we talk with Benjamin C. George. The patterns surround us, the world is made of language, it’s reality…..

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen

Whoa, I almost knock over my microphone I'm so excited, I almost knock over my microphone Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast We are here with the one and only Benjamin C. George on the George and George episode hour of the no absolutes, the terror before the sacred, and all things interesting. Welcome to the show. Benjamin C. George, how are you today, my friend? Another day in paradise, brother. How are you doing? I'm living the dream. Thank you for asking. You know, before we got started,

we were talking about the pitfalls of entrepreneurship and some of the ways in which one can find themselves in sort of a K-hole for those who are familiar with ketamine. You know, it's tricky. You can really pour yourself into something and block yourself off from everything else. And in some ways, I think that's what it takes to be at the top of your game. And you can see the sacrifice. I think there's an old quote that says you can only serve one master. So maybe we can just, before we start talking about some of the new books and new things coming out,

what do you think are some of the benefits and the pitfalls of your career as an entrepreneur? Can you tell us maybe a story or two? Sure. You know, I think while the pitfalls probably are more numerous, simply because that's just the nature of the game, it's try and fail, it's sacrifice and get nothing. It's almost get there and then fall down the mountain and then into the next valley, which you didn't even know existed. But then when you do get some achievement,

when you do start to crest some hills and then eventually some mountains, it makes it all worth it. Mostly because not necessarily that you succeeded in doing something, but you'll learn so much about yourself, about people, about the world, about, you know, what the ins and outs of so many different things,

that we take for granted nuances that we didn't even know existed. And in that perspective, I think there's great value. And I think that's where a lot of the benefits outweigh the detriments when it comes to the entrepreneurial journey. Yeah, that is really well said. And, you know, I'm a big language guy. And when I think about language and the things I love, I think if you're building something, be it a company or a project. or even a process.

Like if you're beginning this journey of building something, it seems to me you're building a new part of yourself. You're building a new idea about yourself and the environment. And it's kind of like a trip, which takes us back to psychedelics in a way. Like it is a journey. It is a trip. You are going to stumble along the way sometimes.

You're going to have new areas, new lookout points. And you're going to find out. probably more about yourself, like you said, than maybe the thing you're studying or maybe that thing you're trying to build is already part of you. And I'm always amazed at language and, you know, how beautiful it is, even though sometimes language fails. Now, your book, No Absolutes, a framework for life. It's part of a trilogy, which is a great word for language in a one, two, three series. What are some of the, you have some other titles for some other books. Can you tell us what those are and maybe start with the second one and explain it a little bit?

Well, it's a pending trilogy. Okay. They're unwritten, but they're conceptualized. The second one is no absolute language for life. And, you know, the idea being a lot of what we talked about in the course of this podcast, seven podcasts now, is words are important how we use those words. You just said, and it's interesting how language often fails. Yeah.

And the exploration of that, I think, is a very valuable tool at a personal level, but also at a communal level and a societal level. Because it's a different, when we start to look at all these things, is not massive lines in the sand and these tribalistic us-vers-stem type ideas, but more of a conversation and sharing of information, the comparison of ideas and the ultimate winner of better ideas.

It allows us to communicate at an entirely different level, for one. And it starts to remove some of these very long-term isms of systems of system. your racism, your sexisms, and all, et cetera. Because now, you know, the hard and fast lines are no longer hard and fast. Well, there might be a line there or there might not. Have you heard what this guy's talking about as opposed to, you know,

we can't listen to so-and-so because they're blue or they're red or they're conservative or they're liberal or they're, you know, a Raiders fan or a Broncos fan? You know, all of these little dichotomies that, you know, we, we, you know, can't see the larger picture because we can't see past, you know, the huge tribal giant in front of our eyes, the zidal that, you know, everybody kind of suspends their rational and reasonable mind for. Yeah. It's, I was going to say, so that's, that's kind of, you know, the, it's kind of the underlying idea behind the second book to build upon the framework of the first book to provide a way for the individual to start kind of programming their own, their own life. And, you know, because the way that we speak and the way that we think will

influence the way that we act and the, you know, the way that we traverse through this grand adventure of life. And so that was book number two. So let me ask you this. When I believe that thoughts are things. And the word, the, I forgot the exact breakdown, but it's something along the lines of the thoughts you think become the word, or the words you use become the thoughts you think. The thoughts you think become the ideas you have and the ideas you have become the patterns of your life.

And so the language that you speak. be it an inner dialogue or be it the words you use to explain yourself, your situation, or others. It's such an important issue because most people do not pay attention to the words they use. Instead of listening to what someone says, they're thinking about a rebuttal, they're not totally consuming the information coming at them, and they want to respond so quickly, maybe out of respect or maybe out of necessity or maybe out of pain, but they want to get it out so fast. They don't take time to conceptualize the ideas they want. And so the language just kind of spills out of them.

When it does that, it's like building a crappy sandcastle, it's just going to fall over. But if you don't have the good foundation, you can't build the tower that's going to last. And that foundation comes from the words you use, which kind of brings us back to framework. How do you use language to stay away from these isms? Well, I mean, you know, instead of where do a lot of isms come from?

You know, these, a lot of these things are because there was absoluteism before the ism, the individualism. And that absolutism was, you know, so-and-so is superior to so-and-so, right? That's usually where it stems from for one reason or another, and there's been so many throughout history. And as soon as you have that, you have these individual isms born. And so those absoluteisms of, you know, one person's better than the other, you know, which in my experience and my travels, I would say there's, I've never seen a single piece of evidence to support any notion of that. but you know those are things that bred these ideas into society and to the point now where you know they've lost a lot of their potency because they are used just so will and nealing you know they're thrown at everybody these days but at the same time when people are constantly

focused on those types of words and framing their perceptions and the things that they see in life in that contact, you know, it's no surprise that you end up with just an increasing chasm of divide that we're seeing on, you know, pretty much a daily basis. Yeah. It's fascinating to me how some of the things that are supposed to bring us together tend to be the things that divide us most. And when you look at something as powerful as, like religion, let's say, let's just throw this monster out there.

So, you know, here's this beautiful idea that we are all part of the same organism, or we all can find something greater than ourselves to believe in, to point us in the right direction. And all of a sudden, I heard it, I heard it said like this one time, religion is like a finger pointing to the moon, but we get caught up in the finger. Like, it's a brown finger. No, no, no, it's a white finger. It's pointing at the moon. It doesn't matter. It's got a fingernail on it.

It's got too many wrinkles. And it seems if you look at that metaphor that way, we get caught up in the smallest details. I think it was Freud who said it was the ego, the monster ego of the mundane or something along those lines. But we get caught up in these small little details and then we fight over those. And I think that that's one place where we could work on. our ideas about language to help forge a better relationship with each other. And what is it about these small details that act like gaps or containers to push us into a small box?

What do you think that is? Well, I think it's multifactored. But one is certainly, you know, how all of these things have been used throughout history. And if you look at just about any religion that I'm aware of, they've all been kind of usurped by people who wanted to abuse other people at some level. And, you know, it's really hard to do that, especially like from the Abrahamic religions perspective. you know these things are very closely related when you start especially the further you go back and so how do you differentiate yourself from these people who are just over a mountain back in the back in those times well now there has to be something different in our you know

our understanding our you know our translations are you know what our priests interpret you know there has to be some difference there. And then eventually those little differences because they allow people to maintain, gain, control and power and resources and wealth and all of these things that humans seem really obliged to pursue. Eventually, magnified by time,

you see where, yeah, back, it was really close. But then now you see, I was just grown and grown and grown to these divides where now you have, even within the different Abrahamic religion, you have a vast variety of sex that are, you know, very almost 180 degree different from one another, oftentimes in their interpretations and rituals and what have you. So I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, just the nature of humanity and, you know, and maybe not necessarily the nature of humanity, but, you know, maybe not necessarily the nature of humanity, but the nature of humanity historically. I'll say that. Because along that line of history,

we can see all of those occurrences where a thing like a religion or any sort of type of ritual that bound an area together was eventually usurped and utilized for the gain of power and resources, you know, money and control. Yeah, that's fascinating to think about.

And I like the idea of that being the nature of humanity. You know, isn't human, human nature has to be pretty close to the nature we live in, right? And so if we look at nature and we see this constant cycle of expand and contract,

you know, whether it's the earth spinning or it's the glaciers moving forward and then retreating, it seems too that that human nature would expand and contract. And I think we've seen that through the rise and falls of different humanities. And why wouldn't that be true with major concepts like religion? Like you see it expand everywhere.

It gets bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and then it contracts. And then it goes bigger, bigger, bigger, and it contracts. And I think that's similar to language, too. I mean, there's all these different languages. And then all of a sudden, everyone starts, you know, be it through a pandemic. or a asteroid hitting or whatever. It seems that that idea, ideas go out and then they have to come back in.

Just like the tide, right? If you start thinking about it, it's everywhere. As above so below. Yeah, really well put. And so, you know, these things are, they are seemingly cyclical, but I would say they're more helical in nature. And, you know, you'll notice this wave pattern throughout everywhere you look, just like you were about to get into the whole spiel.

You're like, oh, my gosh, it's the waves, too. And it's the, you know, it's the blowing of the trees. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, and, you know, it's radio waves. It's how we're communicating right now. So, you know, we have wireless signals. And those are, those are waves that are, you know, allowing us to send information across

airwaves. Another wave, right? And so in all of these mediums, and so these interactions, the ebb and flow that you were describing is a really interesting phenomena because, you know, that ebb and flow like with an idea or something, you know, it'll get to that place where it's just like, aha, it's like an accepted wisdom. And then it'll fall out for the next idea. And, you know, it's an interesting evolution, if you like start to look at a bigger picture of things, throwing stuff like computing and, you know, the evolution of technology and all of these things.

and you get to the point where you see that a lot of these ideas, the new products, our new designs, you know, the my spaces of the world, you know, things that come into this massive thing and then dissipate. It always, it's continual,

but it's not just cyclical. It always advances the notch. And then it goes around. And then it advances the notch. And then it goes around. And so you have this, you have this kind of almost helical, motion of things because it does always we're always kind of seeming to move perpetually forward

in all of the in every way that you look at these things right even if you go back to religion what we started with you know now people it went from religion being everything to it was you know it looked like everybody was going to be an atheist from the year 2000 to there's been a much larger interest in the reason i wouldn't say resurgence of in religion necessarily, but an interest in religious study, right? And I think that's the next tick up in that cycle of it. Yeah, it's almost, like you said, it's like we're coming around to being more whole, which when I think of whole, I think of holy, you know, in the idea of the holy.

And that brings me to this point. I was, I'm curious to get your take on this. I was listening to a pastor yesterday, and he had recently been part. part of an experiment at John Hopkins University with psilocybin. And it was it was a little bit like the Good Friday experiments they had back at Harvard back in the day. And this guy, he gave his, he gave his, he told about the experience that he had. And he equated it to, he had mentioned that prior to having the experience, he had never

taken mushrooms before and he was a pastor for like the last 15 years. and he said that he equated it to just like stuff you would read from a lot of different scholars. And this particular point was that it was a, for him it was like the sixth day of a meditation retreat. He started to feel his body. He started to feel the blockages leave his body. He felt like different sensations in his body. And during his experience at John Hopkins, you know, what I might call, the encounter with the alien or the encounter with God or hearing a voice in my head,

he just explained it differently. He said he was being spoken to in tongues. And I could relate to almost everything he said, but he used a different vocabulary to describe it. And what I found really fascinating about the end of it was that after this process, he started up like a new type of church. And he thought that he started up this non-volveillance. prophet where he wants to bring back to the Christian religion, the sort of Eucharist, like the

mushroom as a Eucharist. And he wanted to start having these retreats and bringing pastors in. And he goes, you know, I think it would be great if I could open this up to the Christian community. And he was specifically talking about Christians. And he wanted different pastors to come to this place and then go back and tell their tribe. And it just made me start thinking about like, wow, what an amazing cycle of bringing psychedelic, the psychedelic experience back to religion so that everybody can see it and have it in that context. It could be pretty powerful. On one hand, I was thinking that.

And then on the other hand, I'm like, man, this guy's just knocking on the town. This guy's knocking on the door to Jonestown over here. But it's such a beautiful way. Like I try not to see that Jonestown aspect of it because I think it has a, it holds a lot of power. But what do you think about that? coming back into religion and psychedelics and maybe moving it back together, something like that. Well, I think first of all, I think there's strong evidence to suggest that, you know, psychedelics and religion are pretty closely entwined.

You know, the ancient, you know, illusion mysteries in Greece, you have, you know, the Eucharist, you have Soma in India, you have, you know, the fruit of the, gods. You have a lot of tales that, like once you look at a few different angles on it, it really starts to resemble some sort of psychotropic substance. And a lot of times, oftentimes a mushroom. I mean, I think there's even a temple in Japan, a megalithic temple, that has a whole bunch of mushrooms. People call it penis temple. But it has a whole bunch of big mushroom statues. And so, I mean, if that's not a sign, I don't know what it is. Yeah.

So I think there is a strong connection historically between psychedelics and religious. And then, you know, fast-forwarding to what she said about how he interpreted as being spoken to through tongues. You know, I find it very interesting in, you know, going down to psychedelic journey for years and being around a lot of people who've done it as well. people their interpretations especially when they get to those like first heroic doses and things like that where they really kind of they hit that like aha moment you know it's always filtered through the lens of their of their learned experience right and so you know like when you for him you know that is such a foreign sensation his is his mental association of foreign sensations is through the biblical context of people speaking in tongues. Right. So I, you know, I can see how that would, you know, that's kind of how his, how his trip, how his experience developed.

So, but fast-boarding to, you know, now, you know, I love the idea of people being open and receptive and experiencing experiences. The problem is, is they can go to Jonestown. so fast. And if you look at religion, a lot of religion already is knocking on the door of Jones Town. They're just waiting for a moment, essentially. I mean, you know, it's just wild stuff where people are being fleeced

and you have, you know, crazy manipulations. And then if you were to throw a psychotropic substance into, you know, somebody who has a 5,000 person congregation who's already fairly rabid and completely you know, mine fucked already. Yeah. Well, you're going to have problems pretty quick. So, you know, I think I, the idea is great. I think just like it says in, you know, most religions, it should always be like a personal experience, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of this, I think that's where a lot of the religion side of things, you know, ends up in direct contest with all of the psychedelic shamanistic experiences is because eventually you get to the point where you start asking the very uncomfortable questions in a place like that. And, you know, people who you've known for 30 years will look at you sideways real fast. So I think there's something to be had there for sure. You know, it's something I've certainly had conversations with people about in recent years, too, just because of the legal nature of how that's all going.

So, yeah, I think it's, I think in the future we'll definitely see a new kind of maybe illusion mysteries type idea evolve around a place. Like instead of a Vegas, a city of Sid, you have some other city in the desert. That's the city of enlightenment, you know. Wow, yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking about this for a while. And like I've been like obviously I've been talking to cool people like yourself who have a different way of looking at life.

I've been, I'm hopeful. I've been talking to people from Cirque de Soleil. And I would really love to pick the brain of someone who not only performs there and interacts with the crowd, but someone who puts on the show for the crowd and thoroughly understands the relationship between a performer, the crowd and the shared experience. In my mind, coming back from California recently, I went to this vineyard, and all I could think of was like, oh my God, this must be what Elus looked like. You know, imagine like a vineyard and there's all, you know,

just valleys and valleys on both sides, and then there's this amphitheater. Imagine going there and having, now you would have to have probably an invite only or something to begin with, but imagine filling an amphitheater with some of the best performers, and having, I don't know, maybe like an eighth of mushrooms where you're not bazonkers or anything and you're not at the top of the mountaintop, like taking in everything, but you're definitely at a heightened state of awareness. And then you as a group, you watch this play, you watch this performance, this potential Greek tragedy where someone loses a child.

And all of a sudden you're transformed from an individual that came to watch and be part of this show to being a member of the society and feeling the pain of the people next to you, I think it has the ability to be a ritual that transforms people. You know, and it's, I really think there's something to be said about the ritual that one can not only view but participate in. I think those two things mesh together. And I think that that bridge is through psychedelic, and it's through a new Elusinian mysteries.

And I've really been thinking about that quite a bit. What I guess How would you envision Like if you were going to put up a new Illucinian Mysteries What are the boxes you would want to tick And what would it look like to you?

Well While I like the idea of the Ample Theater And everybody there And I think that is A pretty interesting experience To connect with people in that way I think the first step Is people aren't even connected

with themselves. It's so true. And it took years of pounding on the wall before I finally found the front door. But, you know, after you connect with yourself, then I think those types of experiences like throughout maybe like a given period of time, like a couple week period of time or something like that, I think those would be great to kind of foment, you know, a grander, you know, social conscious idea. Right.

But I think initially, you know, you have, there has to be that initial, that initial movement, that trip, if you will, that experience that takes somebody and reconnects them with who they are. A good point. And I think, you know, doing that is, well, you know, I have a recipe. It's a three-day experience. You kind of have a, like you have something that you've been working on that is, similar to an elucinian experience

and that's pushing your body to the edge while on taking motion. That's got to be its own ritual and experience. It is. You know, it was with the intent to have a vision quest of, you know, kind of in an old school way, the first time I did it, and I succeeded. And, you know, and then on top of that,

had a large insight into a lot bigger of a picture. And so, you know, it's a continual thing just as all things are. But it's one of those things where, you know, most people will be like, okay, how do I take mushroom? Well, you take, you know, anywhere from like three to five grams if you really want to go for it and go sit in a dark room. I think that's a terrible idea personally.

I think, you know, you start with, you know, you aim for that amount after the course of like two, three hours. but you go in 45-minute intervals and you exercise and do something physical and in the sun between all of these ingestion periods and instead of not being able to move off of that, all of a sudden you'll be running up mountains while you're thinking in your head

and singing out loud and didn't realize that you forgot you haven't been breathing. So I think there's a different way to do that. I have to try that experience. It always makes me so thankful. And sometimes I think about like there's so many, there's different ways for different individuals to get to a certain point. And in a way, like I was talking about how mushrooms can bring people together,

but there is this sort of solitude where you have to find your own way. It's almost like you have to create your own lightsaber in order to fight the best. battle that's right for you. And, and I think you're 100% right. Like, I think maybe being a little bit further on our journey or trying or being down this road before that I know that I have forgotten what led to this journey. And it's like, you just don't start over there. Like, you got to start way over here, man. And you start at the beginning and you start with the first page and the first sentence. And then you digest that. And you can't start people with the middle of the book. I'm, I'm glad you brought that up. It's easy to forget where you started at. But yeah, I, I,

I think that there is, what do you think about the idea that there is sort of a solitude to do it? I guess if you're going to find yourself, you have to be alone. Is that sound accurate? Or what do you think about that? I would recommend if somebody wanted to seek this path and they had zero experience, you find somebody who is a shaman of sorts to walk you down the path. because, you know, while mushrooms aren't going to kill you and the experience isn't going to kill you, I've seen some people traumatized, you know, for long periods of time just because they didn't know that what they were doing.

They were willy-nilly, didn't adhere to, you know, set in setting, didn't do any research about the substance they were, you know, ingesting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, six months later, they're still, you know, neurotic about the whole thing in life. And, you know, so if you're going to just delve into it, if you're going to dive into this world, I would definitely recommend seeking out somebody. But once you understand, once you get a hold of it, I think it is a personal journey that, you know, you take and you reconnect with yourself and who you are. And I think, you know, it's really easy to tell people who've walked down that path as well. Yeah. Because when you meet them, you instantly say, oh, hey, how's going? It's just a different nature to the conversation, right?

Yeah. It's like being like, oh, yeah, I've, I've been to Greece. Oh, have you seen that one spot there? Oh, yeah, it's like it's an environment that you're familiar with. And it's fun to talk about because it's a fellow traveler. Oh, yeah, did you check out that dog leg back there? Or did you go to that lookout? Oh, yeah.

No, I'll check it out next time. What? That kind of brings me to the idea of psychedelics today. It seems to me that there is this issue. of, you know, it's convoluted. I understand that there's multiple people that need help. And like, we probably all need help. However, I think that there's a riff in the community of psychedelics today where some people

would like it to be, here's a substance, you get from a doctor and you can go every Thursday and you get this amount and you have to talk to this guy. You might need a prescription. And then there's other people that are like, look, I'm going to show you how to do it once or twice. And then from there, it's up to you to decide how to do it. And I realize that there's different levels of people. Somebody who has been severely traumatized might be an individual that should probably never do it alone or shouldn't do it alone for a year or two years.

And I understand there's levels to that. I guess that's why it's so tricky right now. Some people think you should always have a doctor prescription. Some people think you should be shown the way. What do you think about that divide? And are there ways to solve that? it's an interesting thing because you know the

the kid in me who grew up being in my head against that wall and just trying to any psychedelic I could find for a number of years and you know just having fun instead of working with intention right he says that hey

you know I people should do this in the wild that grows in the wild you find it in the wild live it in the wild but that's there's a bit more of a sensible part of me as I've aged that says, hey, you know, people do have trauma. You know, all life experiences, you know, some people just break. And those breaks need to be dealt with properly. And if you don't deal with a break properly, you do, you will end up with a problem. So, you know, I think on one hand, the idea that you're putting it all into a clinical setting

is kind of wild because it's very much not a clinical thing. I think as most people would attest. And putting it in a, you know, and set in setting does play a huge role into the experience itself. So now if these places are retreats up in the woods or something like that, you know, it's probably, you know, it's probably fine. But, you know, if you're thinking like a hospital room that's all whitened with big old, you know, bright lights shine. and on you, you're going to have a rough time, I think. So, and then the other side of that problem is, is you have the vast number of people. You know, you're going to have, if all of a sudden you have, you know, this is something that gets approved,

you know, kind of like a marijuana has at a state level, you're going to have all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of people, you know, utilizing psychedelic substances, potentially. and you probably want that a bit more, a bit more orderly than not. That being said, as you well know, on psychedelic substances, nobody's inclined to go get in a car and go, you know, enjoy a ride. You know, most of the time,

you're pretty much stuck to whatever soft surface you happen to find yourself on about 45 minutes after you ingest something. But, you know, that being said, I think there's probably room for both in the world. And this is where it gets back into the whole society thing of things, where how's it going to roll out? Do you have to pay to play the game?

You know, am I going to have to buy a million dollars worth of licenses and whatnot in order to facilitate this type of experience? Or, you know, is it just that I'm a guy who, you know, maybe there's a state certification test or something like that? that, right? You know, or, you know, who knows how they're going to do this stuff? Or, you know, even when it rolls back to the guy who wants to do it in a church, well, what happens if 90% of the people in a church are fine, but, you know, 10% have a crazy reaction and start throwing chairs at people? You know, where's the liability lie? Where's the insurance? You know, what's the

cost of all these things? These are when these are when the societal questions start to arise, right? So, yeah, I think that those will be interesting hurdles because unlike a marijuana where people are still relatively lucid, you know, most of the time. Psychedelics, people can be completely gone. You know, you can snap your fingers in front of their face and they won't even know you're right there. So there's a, there is a, you know, there's a whole bunch of challenges there when you're talking about, you know, safety and whatnot and safety of patients. you know, safety of property, safety of all sorts of things. So I think it's an interesting, an interesting development. I think it'll probably start out in those mountain retreats,

critical environment, something that has $100 million in VC money. And, you know, they're taking, you know, X amount of people for $5,000 retreats for two weeks, right? Or a week or something like that. Right. I think that's probably how it'll end up playing out more of a privatized thing like that. Just because of the massive hurdles from, you know, a communal slash societal perspective. Yeah. I could see, like, I could see that in so many ways.

And it's, it's not a bad business model if you're a VC. And you can, you know, you can get some psilocybin from Canada or from a lab here that's pretty much pure. And you can get it for, you know, if you're talking five or 10 grand a tree. trip, man. That's an expensive trip on all levels. You know what I mean? Well, I mean, you know, that's what, you know, these people doing these ayahuasca tours right now are making. Are they really?

Oh, yeah. What's it cost to go on an ayahuasca tour? Well, I think there are some in the states these days, like in L.A., of course. But, you know, I was looking down in Peru and Ecuador, and there's usually three to $5,000 for a week experience or so. So, you know, they're making pretty good money too. And it's became such a popular thing, these ayahuasca retreats with like kind of like your L.A. type scene people. Yeah.

And so, you know, they're making a good mint. And I think so there's a lot of people looking at that from a, you know, VC perspective and going, hmm. Right. We, you know, on one hand, you got a burning man. And then on the other hand, you have these ayahuasca retreats. I think if we put them together. Yeah. I wonder, now, is that three to five grand? The thing about Peru or South America is you also get an option for malaria, too, if you do the right price. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was down in Central and South America for, you know, six years of my life.

Never, never ended up with malaria. I never got a malaria shot. Nice. I had to get a couple. I think the only forced vaccination I had to get was going. into Ecuador and I had to get yellow fever, which I was fine with. I didn't feel like it in yellow fever. I looked up the symptoms of yellow fever and it didn't sound all that pleasant. So I decided that that's okay. I'll take the jab in the arm. And yeah, but didn't have a problem with malaria. A lot of those places, like, unless you go to one of those authentic, like, you know, in actual shaman in the jungle type scenario, a lot of those ones that are.

charging money are, you know, air-conditioned cabins that, you know, you're only 20 miles from the larger, you know, a large city probably, you know, maybe an hour from from the airport, something like that. Because all of those, all of those Peru, Ecuador, you know, you're right in the hills already. You're already in the jungle. All Central America and Costa Rica, Panama. You're, you know, you're 20 minutes from the jungle. You're an hour from the beach, no matter which direction you drive pretty much. So I think, you know, a lot of them, you're going to be fine when dealing with that type of stuff. But, you know, some people are unlucky with that.

You know, I know quite a few people who just showed up for, hey, it's my 10-day vacation. Oh, I have malaria. How'd you do that? Yeah. You know, I'm living here. Yeah, it's in some ways, it seems so romantic to me to be able to do that down towards. the Amazon or Central America, that just seems like, and maybe it's just a romantic notion, but it just seems like, maybe it's because the literature I wrote or some of the people I follow,

but it just seems like that's, you know, where you could have the ultimate experience. But the truth is, you could probably have a really good experience being somewhere comfortable in your own environment, you know, maybe not somewhere like that. I think that you can get a lot out of that experience if you just decide what you want out of the experience, regardless of where you are. I think you're going to get closer to solving some problems. But it goes back to intent, like you said. Yeah, exactly. Intent.

And, you know, when you start to work intent like you work a muscle, you get a lot better at it. And eventually, you know, especially when you're active in doing these things, you, you, you know, you. you're flexing that intent constantly because you're you're being forced to interact with if you know not just nature other people and whatnot and so you know working that intent muscle eventually you get to the point where you're really very much in control of not just your thoughts but you know the whole experience of the experience yeah you're guiding yourself through essentially i think it brings us back to the idea in the beginning we were talking about building your own business or building your own company or building your

own idea and entrepreneurship. And one thing that I have found about particularly mushrooms is that it does take you to the mountain top in some ways. And by that, it gets us back to language. Like if you get high, you can look down on things, not look down in a way that's negative or putting things down, but looking down at things from a different perspective. of it, you know, if you, and this idea of getting high, like, you know, if you're going to be in a battle and you want to ambush somebody, you want the high ground. If you want to see things, we want to get a 360 degree view. You know, the people in the prisons have a panopticon because they're always looking down. So if you get high, you can see things from a different angle.

And that's true of any idea that you have. And I think with people use whatever substance it is to get high, you should be thinking about that. Like, if I want to get high, I should be looking at my situation from a different perspective. And I think getting high sometimes has this, it's almost like a pejorative. All these people are getting high. Like, yeah, I'm going to get high so I can see things better. And I think you can use drugs like that to see and make your life a little bit better. Yeah, you know, I think it's very much, it's probably still more a pejorative than it isn't.

Yes, it is. But, you know, again, that ties into, you know, the importance of work. right you know you know when somebody hears oh you got high one person through their lens of experience of interpretation will look at that person as some sort of degenerate you know who's just wasting away their life whereas another person will look at that person and understand what you just said and be like oh they're on a journey yeah you know and they're trying to see things from a different perspective um meanwhile is the same word Yeah.

But all the other words influence all those perspectives. Yeah, not only the perspectives, but if you're, if, if you are one of these people that sees people who get high as wasting their life, then you're not even open to the idea. You're not even giving them an opportunity to explain what high is to them. And I think that gets us back to language as a framework. Like so often we never define our terms in a conversation. And so people either side monologuing or they're just talking past each other. And I think that this is another way we get to these isms. It's like we have these predefined ideas of what that word is.

And especially from different cultures, like if, you know, interpretation means translation. And if we're interpreting and translating different, we're not even talking, man. maybe everyone should be getting high more often. Well, that's one thing I loved about learning Spanish is because, you know, while there's a lot of things that translate, there are just certain things that just can't translate. And until I understood enough Spanish that I understood, you know, the way that the words went together, the way that the language was structured, you know, the intonation behind things, the nuances behind, you know, implied.

context and positive and negative connotations and all these little nuances that language has all of a sudden, you know, those phrases become beautiful. Yeah. And part of that beauty is the inability to translate it because

that language defined such a particular framed it so particularly well that you just can't actually articulate it in a different language to the and have it mean what it's supposed to mean.

So, you know, it's really interesting when you have situations like that in language, and I always love those. And then I had a point and I got distracted by my love of untranslatables. Yeah, what were we going? We talk about Spanish and how like the double negative or seeing language that is unable to be translated. So you have a different context and you have a different framework

and you have a different relationship with your environment that way. Like in German, they have words like Chadenfreude, where you're a little bit excited when somebody has like a bad day or, you know, there's just different, one word can be a whole other concept

that people in another language can't even think about because they don't have a linguistic pathway to get there. And these people, like that takes us back to Sapir and War theory that the more complicated and bigger the language, the more articulate and more intelligent that group of people is going to be. And I know it's a theory that is contested a little bit.

But if you took, and I actually got into a bit of a debate with my Hawaiian friend who was telling me like, you know, we were talking about language and how different languages allow different cultures to see the world differently. And I brought up this idea of Sapir Warf there. And he's like, you have no idea. Like the Hawaiian language, even though it only has a 13-letter alphabet, is so much better of a language because people don't thoroughly understand that you could just put a little accent on this letter and it changes the word.

And I'm like, wait a minute, can you tell me the last time someone with a big alphabet lost to someone with a small alphabet? He got all mad at me. He's like, what are you trying to say? Like, violence is the answer. It was a good conversation. but you know it's a really interesting idea i would i would say it probably much more resembles a bell curve how so what do you mean i would think i would think that there is a certain saturation point

where a language can get too big and too diverse to where it becomes too burdensome to to properly articulate something efficiently and then it starts to lose some of its efficiency as it gets to a larger and larger point. Just like English right now. Like you see at peak or maybe even Latin. Latin splintered into like France and spinning into all these different languages. The same way that there's different dialects of English that have split off into like either Ebonyx or Pigeon, you know, and there's all these offshoots now.

However, if you listen to Christopher Hitchens or one of these people who were educated that thoroughly understand the canon that is the English language, you're automatically like, whoa, this person's smart. You know, even if they might not be, but they have a command of a language. It sounds like they are. Well, there was also, people were much more eloquent back in the day because instead of spending time scrolling and looking at her phones, digesting media, you know, the entertainment of the day was the dinner table.

Yeah. It was the dinner party. It was, and, you know, in order to be heard in an environment like that, you had to be able to articulate yourself in such a manner that people that commanded attention and respect and, you know, presented your ideas clearly and concisely. And we don't have a lot of that anymore. Even storytellers. You know, if you look back to the days of the Homeric verses where people would gather around

and it was always the storyteller. And with storytelling comes cadence, comes eye contact, hand movement, you know, new words to surprise people to think about. to think about that. Yeah. I think there's something to be said about that. There is. You know,

are you fan of Isaac Asimov? I'm sorry? Isaac Asimov. Isaac, yes, yes. He's got the rules for AI. Right. Did you ever read, he had a series of short stories

called The Black Widowers Club? No, I haven't read that. You ever hear about that? No, but I will write it down. It's interesting. because basically it takes the idea of the old school dinner party and kind of puts like a it's a mystery twist on it. And so, you know, you have the guests who are, you know, a prominent lawyer, you know, doctors, you know, different high stationed people in society. And they all come for, you know, a dinner that's prepared at this at this one restaurant.

And it's always a different theme. And then each week one person has to bring a guest that has a problem. them. And that guest will have some sort of mystery for the group to solve. And so they all just sit around talking about different perspectives of it, how it could be, you know, done in such a way or how stuff could happen this way. And it's, and it's funny because it's usually always the butler, the servant guy who is the smartest one in the room who gives them the hint to get the answer. But they're wonderful stories. I got to read. I can't wait to read that. The Black Widowers Club. Is that what it's called?

Man. And we, and, you know, so we lack, when's the last time you had an experience like that? Where you gathered with a whole bunch of people who were just, you know, really doing well in their own positions in life and then were posed a challenge as a group from all those varying perspectives. That just doesn't happen. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, but think about if it did.

because, you know, as we were talking about a few episodes ago, you know, you have expertise, but then you have the experience of generalized knowledge. But now you can you can mash up both in one idea, one room, one challenge, one, you know, one debate if you want to take it that route. But imagine if we were still doing that where instead of, you know, worrying about somebody's political leanings or whatnot, you were just taking the, the intellectual experience and sitting down with a group of people imposing challenges to them an interesting way while in the course of having a good time in a dinner party and whatnot.

What greater solutions could be had? You know, what sort of, because oftentimes, you know, it's that one little thing. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've been, had a programming problem. And I'm talking to somebody who's not a programmer. And they say something that's not about programming that allows. me to solve my programming problem because I'm like aha I didn't even look at it like that you know I was looking at it from this perspective I didn't even look at it like that and all I had to do is just expand my horizon just a little bit and it took somebody one sentence from some you know some random

conversation now imagine if you took that and bottled it into a room with a purpose with an intent Wow, I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, that should be something, like you said, I guess that was done all the time. I don't know the last time I was at a dinner party, you know, with COVID and working and trying to do something. And even dinner parties over the past, you know, 30-some years,

there's always the group of kids. There's always the person who has to leave already. There's always the person who shows up late. You know, it's usually a potluck or a barbecue or something like that. You know, and there's never a dedicated focus to it. I mean, you know, maybe people got a game night or something. But, you know, that just doesn't really exist in kind of our society anymore. And I think that is a tragedy.

We lose out on a lot of perspectives and conversations and things that actually, you know, moving the needle towards people actually understanding the world as opposed to people, you know, understanding less and less through, you know, headlines. as being their only exposure to what's happening in the world. Yeah, that seems like the erosion of community too. Like we've just gotten away from, we've traded in the real thing for the illusion of, you know, like we have all these Facebook friends

or we have all these friends that whenever I clamshell my computer, it's back into my own world and somewhat fulfilled, however longing for contact in a weird sort of way. And I think you don't reach the same level of discussion. You know, nothing gets as heated when somebody can sit up and or stand up and very animatedly act out their passionate position about something. Yeah.

You know, right two feet in front of you. You just, you're never going to get that in a series of Zoom calls. And, you know, you're not going to even get that in, you know, just an everyday type of conversation because the same hoopla wouldn't be going on. You know, people wouldn't be ribbing each other and goading each other. You know,

you just don't, because things just don't translate, right, unless you're in person sometimes. And in those heated moments of passion, in those animated, you know, you know,

just explosions, that's when people have profound ideas or say things that make people belly laugh for the next, for the next, month while they think about it over and over and over again. You know, and it's a travesty that we're missing out on that. Not only we're missing out on it, but it's almost as if we're trying to, we're trying to,

we're trying to get that out of the, God, dang, that's not the right word. It's almost like we're trying to relegate that out of community. Like when, oh, let's all do online school now. It's almost as if we are trying to purposely get rid of the felt presence of the other. Like we don't, on some level, it seems there's an element to society that does not want people together. Like, I don't want you sitting next to one and having that discussion. I would like you on the computer doing it. Well, you know, I think you could take that from a lot of perspectives, right?

I think from a big tech perspective, you know, that's our goal. We're deciding our algorithms to glue as many eyeball hours to our website as possible. You know, so their self-interest is always going to be that. Then you have, you know, you could say that there's other people who, you know, like from a position of like politics and power, especially depending on what country you are in the world. They certainly don't want people sitting around and having a group conversation. because now all of a sudden people say, oh, you feel that way too? Oh, yeah, yeah, me too.

And that's how revolution started. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, depending on where you are in the world, it's very much frowned upon to live that way. And I think, you know, the combination of that and other things, you know, a lot of the profit-driven motivation for all things, as we've talked about, I think that kind of entails itself. to, you know, what we're seeing this erosion of community.

You know, it's, and I don't think it's deliberate explicitly. But I think there are certain parties, interested parties, are definitely, you know, explicitly interested in the erosion of community and in the erosion of nations and in the erosion of, you know, power structures that stop them from continuing what they want to do. Okay, so this brings me to the idea of your helical model. If we're moving forward and it seems like we're moving upwards, doesn't it also seem like we're eroding them?

Like how can we square that? Or how can it be that we're eroding community and that we're eroding relationships but still having the illusion of moving forward? Can we do both of those things? Aren't those in contradiction? I would say they're not in contradiction. prediction. I would say, you know, those, you know, just as we were talking in the oven flow earlier, those are things that, you know, they have to be taken out of the equation in order for us to see how

dramatically bad some of these ideas and directions and structures of society can be. And, you know, eventually it has to get to the point where it does fracture. So we can build it back with the proper intention. Yeah, you know, again, as above so below, it's the same idea behind building up a muscle, lifting heavier and heavier weight over time. You know, you're tearing down the internal muscle, but it builds back stronger and stronger and stronger. And eventually you can, you know, you're benching 300 pounds. Right?

I'm not, but some people are. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I guess it can almost go full circle to you're building this business. look, you just got five million views. Oh, guess what? You're off YouTube. Now you start over again. But it's not as hard the second time because you've already understood the road to get there. You've already...

The mechanics, the processes, the, you know, what ideas work, what ideas didn't. You're not wasting as much time. You become more efficient. And you can put in this, you know what? I really wish I would have done this the first time, so as bad as it sucks to redo it. I mean, just put this stuff in over here and then that won't happen next time. In some ways, I look at, you know, we had just spoke. about how, you know, being on the computer stops us from from having true community while giving us the illusion of community. And we talked about the ebb and flow. And I think something

similar to what's happening with Zoom versus talking to your neighbor is something similar that happened between radio and television. Like we went from having radio or reading, which Marshall McLuhan calls cold mediums because you have to do all the thinking. You have to do all the mental image processing and building the story in your head. When you read Isaac Asimov, your dinner party of the characters may look different than my dinner party. However, if we went and watched the screening of that movie, we would be given that information. We would all have that same look at it. So that particular muscle of visualization in our imagination becomes atrophied.

so too does the community become atrophied when we use the computer like that. So I guess that's another pattern of moving forward but losing and then trying to build back better. I don't know if I think that we lost out a lot on memory and lost out a lot on conversations and visualization. And then we tried to build it back with the computer. But I'm not sure that it built it back better. Maybe we're just in the middle of that process or something. No, and it really won't. I mean, even when you're talking the most awesome VR stuff that exists.

Yeah. And there are some awesome VR stuff that exists. Or, you know, when you put on like a first person view for drone and you can fly like a bird for four miles, you know, in any direction. You know, these things are really awesome, but it's still, it still does lack something. It's still not the whole experience. because all of your senses aren't involved in the experience. Right, right. When we're having those conversations,

all of our senses are involved in the experience. Yeah. And, you know, to your point, you know, we have much more senses than just the five. We have that inner vision sense. We have a magnetic sense. We have a lot of different, you know, interoception. We have a lot of these things that are removed from the equation

when we start to replace that time with, you know, the computer or phones these days. Yeah, it's interesting to think about. And I, maybe it's just a part of getting older and remembering, you know, I think everybody has this experience when you're younger. There's always some old guy that's like,

ah, it's not the same, man, you kids today, or, you know, they're living in their ideas. And you don't understand that until you start to become that guy or that girl. And you're like, well, when I was a kid, and you can see the look on the kid's face like, oh, gee, here it comes again, you know. But I think, maybe that's, that is something that if we're mindful of, we can, especially guys our age or guys and girls

our age, I think that we're in a rare position that you can take the lessons that were, that your parents or your grandparents lived through and trend, take out the best parts of them or at least the parts that you know or are told the best and can learn and dust them off and give them to the next generation. I think that there should be some sort of right of passage for not only kids, but for middle-aged people to go through that. Like, look, now you've reached this age where you're the bridge between the old and the new. One day, like you've already, you were the new. You're not quite the old yet. But now your job as a middle-aged person should be to translate those times that your parents had and give them to the kids. And, you know, also tell the old people like, hey, these kids are

doing well. You just don't get them, you know, but there should be some sort of write a passage for us go, hey, we're the bridge now. You know, I think we could benefit from these rights of passage at all ages of life. And maybe that's part of the psychedelic experience. Maybe that's why it's kind of coming back into it. I mean, you could definitely say the psychedelic experience is the right of passage. I mean, that definitely, it's one of those things where if it was done in a proper manner, in a society that was, you know, not just tolerant, but also social.

supported the whole idea. And it wasn't, you know, in a community where everybody was on board was speaking the same language in the sense that they define their words the same. You know, I mean, there's a lot of nuances that you would have to account for. But I think if you did that properly, I think you, you know, having a psychedelic route of passage would be a good thing to do. You know, when we look back at like the ancient mystery schools or even when you look at, you know, like the old trade schools when you had, you know, the journeyman, you know, in all of these things, you know, those, it was a similar system, you know, all of the, all of the intermediate, you know, people inside the school or inside, you know, the whatever trade it was, those were the people

primarily teaching the younger people. Yeah. And then you had the old journeymen who were, you know, overseeing thing. And then you had the really old journeymen who ran the whole thing. And he would kind of wander around and put his fine touch on everything, right? Yeah. And that type of structure, I think there was a lot to be said about it. And I think there was a good reason that it existed in throughout antiquity for so long in various different forms in schools. And, you know, throughout, you know, even you go to Egypt, you go to Greece, you go to, you know, India. You go to all these places.

And it was the same idea. So there must be something. to the idea is kind of my takeaway from that. And I would agree with you. And I think that, you know, not only that, but we're also, we're also really missed the ball when it comes to the elderly in our society. Yeah. You know, these are people who, you know, they become a burden to society because it becomes

a cost thing. You throw them into retirement homes to just weather and die when they've lived 80 years of experiences. have untold amounts of knowledge, you know, not only that they have the knowledge of the previous, you know, two generations before them. Yep. And, you know, you're just going to, and yeah, you don't want those people teaching 30 kids. You know, that's not what you want.

But sure, you know, a day in the garden with somebody who spent 50 some years of their life gardening every day professionally would be beneficial to anyone, right? Yeah. You know, and instead of having a community that facilitates that type of thing, it's, again, it's all money driven. So then it becomes to the point of, well, you can pay us and we'll take care of them for $5,000 a month. But yeah, we're not going to, you know, but this is the package. But if you want the premium package, we'll bring in a personal trainer form.

We'll do all of this stuff. And then it just becomes this thing that kind of just goes to absurdity, but, and ultimately misses the point of the incredible. resource that those people are. Yeah. And it also, you know, it attracts from, you know, those people's experiences, their life, you know, it used to be one of those things, respect your elders, which more of the idea that respect is earned. But at the same time, there is a lot to be said about that, you know, and it's not the respect your elder. It's respect somebody who's been able to live this long,

for one. I think that's where it starts from. But then also, you know, you know, have some respect for the summation of experiences that that person has. Because undoubtedly, there's going to be at least a few, more than likely a lot more, that you have no concept of. And those are all, could be valuable experiences for you. So, again, I think that's just another one of those where we really just drop the ball. you know and it seems wherever education comes up we really drop the ball yeah sadly i agree i think that there's something to be said about that structure and you you can still see it so i mean

you can see the you can see that the architecture of it like if you look at like a good school you have like maybe the the professors who should be the wise men or women And then the teachers who could be the journeyman and then the student. Like you could see the structure. It's just that. And maybe this is what happened. Maybe this is why I got this way. Is it just like all structures, it tends to become corrupted unless you do the hard work of repairing it from time to time.

And there's people in positions of authority that are there because of who they are, how much money they have. Whereas we've gotten away from the meritocracy of it. Like this person should be teaching that. That person gets it. And what makes a teacher? Should someone in their 20s be a teacher? I mean, have they had enough life experience to really be a teacher? I don't know.

Maybe some of them, but maybe there should be some other requirements. Like maybe instead of having to pass a written test to become a teacher, maybe you should have to have a resume and have to have letters of recommendation and pass the test. You know, maybe you should have to have some sort of experience. it's in the field you're teaching instead of just been sitting in a classroom. You know, it seems to me that there should be something there. Well, yeah, and I would agree with you. But then the problem comes to the practicality of it.

And, you know, the reality of that situation is teachers don't get paid enough. Right. To for that to be a viable pursuit for, you know, to go off and gather all of that experience and then to go get paid $33,000 a year is kind of like an insult. I mean, it already is an insult. And then if you were to go off and do that, I think it's even more of an insult to the tomb where you just wouldn't end up with enough teachers to, you know, service all of the children. So I've thought a lot about this, you know, over the years recently.

And I think, you know, this is one of those places where technology can really, really kind of bridge the gap. Because what you can do is, I mean, and there's some pretty quick. ideas like Brilliant.org has done some pretty cool stuff with learning and mathematics and STEM-type stuff. And you know, you have things like Wikipedia, which is awesome if you use it properly. And well, it was awesome. I don't know how it's doing these days. You hear a lot of stuff. But, you know, if you combine these resources and, you know, you have interactive classes that are available 24-7 to children and anybody for that matter. And then you have additional supplemental

classes. Like you would go to the YMCA and take a class type idea. And those are the classes where you learn the finer granular ideas behind the subject or a particular trade or, you know, kind of like we used to have machine shop and metal class and wood class and all these things. You know,

it would just be things like that. And instead of having, you know, instead of it being in a building all day, it would be in combination with physical exercise, you know, practical applications of things like gardening. Yeah.

You know, having a student garden, you know, you know, because how much do you, you can sit there and read 12 books about irrigation, about, you know,

landscape and about gardening, about how, you know, nutrients, about all these things. Or you can go out one day and watch one person who knows what they're doing, do it and tell you what they're doing and why they do it.

And you're so much, you have such a better picture of the process, of the system that it is. So, you know, having multiple aspects of learning where it's not just sitting in a classroom and you use the digital side of things to take care of the more of the, you know, the memorization, the learning of dates, the, you know, historical events, things like that that are, you know, are okay to be described in that type of banner because essentially it's just, you know, like reading from a book anyway, but it's a 24-7 access. And then you just kind of have an elective system for the rest of the more intimate subjects where you can have a teacher that does have the experience, you know, that went and traveled

for six years doing, you know, botany down in the Amazon or something like that. Yeah. And, you know, is there for the summer to teach about exotic plants? And, you know, and then when you have that type of system, I think you could make it financially viable to the point where, you know, the school, the organization would be able to afford to pay that expert who could come teach for the summer about exotic plants. Yeah. See, this is a brilliant conversation.

I really think that we are at the forefront of shaping education. And I think that's a big part of the chaos right now is if you look at traditional education, regardless of, well, I can't say regardless, but it seems to me in education in primary school, kids around the world are taught, you know, they're a language. They're taught, which is also a framework for looking at the world. They're also taught mathematics and science, but they're also taught like this thing called history, which it's so ambiguous.

Like histories are just different. And now that we have become closer together, it's more in the forefront than ever that history is just a bunch of bullshit that was told by the guy that won the war in this particular area. And they don't match up around the world, different calendars, different times, different environments. And so I think part of the chaos we're seeing,

is this dissolution of history, this idea that, okay, look, we got it wrong. No one really wants to admit that, but we're wrong about all this history. And so there's chaos everywhere, and people are fighting because they still want to, when they lose their history, they lose their identity.

And there's a lot of people that have made lots of money that their whole world is based on their identity. And now that the foundation of their identity is being eroded, they're going to, they feel like they're going to die. And maybe their identity might die. I want to interrupt you. Yeah, please. Because you said something interesting.

You said when people lose their history, they lose their identity. And this is something that I was observed to be relatively true in my experience. But it's interesting when you said that because it popped in my head about what we were talking about before, about finding oneself. Yeah. And I think it's often, I think that's true because when, you know, when we're looking at the absolutism of these. histories that we ascribe ourselves to because we don't know who we are. So we're only who we're told we are and what we're a part of. Now that can be removed from us if these histories go away or we find out they're false or what have you.

You know, when we find ourselves, no one can take that away. And I think, you know, I think that's an important thing. about that psychedelic journey. You know, it's called ego death oftentimes if you're looking up with the old internet forums and whatnot. And I think there's probably better articulations to it and I think it's much more of a process

than a singular thing. It's much more granular. But in that process of knowing thyself, you know, we remove those attachments to those weights that would pull us down. off the top of our mountain. And history is one of those.

And definitely the identity through history because of our inability to understand and know our place in the world, I think it's been, like you said, abused and used pretty consistently. But I think, again, there is a solution for that. What do you think that solution is?

I think it's exactly what we're talking about. It's a new type of illusion mystery. It's having a structured psychedelic experience like that. I would hypothesize, and I have a little evidence to support it, that if done well, it's a consistent experience that people have where they realize that, oh, yeah, I spent my entire life as, you know, Ben. But, you know, now I know I'm not just Ben. And I'm not all of those things that Ben was attached to and all of that stuff. Now I see the world in a different way.

And that identity, that perspective, that shifting of ego is, I think, something that could be utilized as a solution to that problem. Now, can you do it on a grand scale? That's where all of these things come to problems, right? It's like, you know, it's cute to do it for a community. In fact, it's probably great to do it for a community. and that's probably where it should be centralized. But then the idea is if, well, it works for one community and then 10 communities want to do it, you know, is there going to be problems at scale?

And the answer to that question is yes. And so you quickly run into these, you know, again, it's like a lot of these are great ideas and they will work at certain levels. But then you get into how do we apply these solutions at a larger, scale. And the problem we're running into it all the time through our conversations is just that, you know, because of the structures that exist

right now, the way society is built, you really can't do these things. You know, whether that be because of law or resource or location, you know, you're just bound in one or multiple different ways that kind of take

a little bit of wind out of the sales, but a little bit's enough for these to either you know, sink or swim type idea. So I think the grander solution to that is a gradual solution where, you know, we can, we can build kind of these conceptual communities that are people who are like by then have the same ideas and are essentially signing up to be, you know, lab rats in a sense, but also signing up to be, you know, entrepreneurs and, you know, live a startup life in another sense because that's what it would be.

It would be kind of a combination of things where, you know, it would be a full on entrepreneurial experience, but it would kind of be a group entrepreneurial experience. Yeah. So I got a couple of things. Like when we look at it through that lens, like do you think that, do you think that us in this, conversation, particularly us, for me anyway, for me seeing maybe for the first time, history

being stripped away. Can I, can I look at, maybe I should look at it like I see my history, the history that I was taught, the history that I knew, I see that falling away from me. And maybe this is something that every individual goes through. And it's just I, I am seeing, because I see it being stripped away from me, now I see it being stripped away from the society. And maybe this is the scaffolding of my ideas being fallen apart because I'm ready to move to the next part. And that's why I can begin to see it in the community is that I have gotten to the point where I am okay letting go of this pre-made history that was given to me. Now it's sort of a right of passage that, okay, now you're ready.

ready to start building. We can start letting go of some of these things that you were holding on to. And you just see because you're allowed to do that, now you can see it happening to society. Is that sound like something? It's wonderfully said. I would say it sounds like no absolutes. Thank you for

that book. Thank you for the framework. Yeah, it's, I can't, I know I say this all the time, but I really enjoy having someone to talk to about these ideas because it does help me understand where I'm at, where my family's at, where my community's at.

And like you said, so above, so below. And I feel talking to you and some other people in my life have really helped me see the world differently. And I'm thankful for that. I'm little appreciative of it. Thank you for letting me explain it like that. I think there's something there. And it helps me help other people. Which is, you know, thank you for that.

And that's wonderful. I mean, that's only ever been my goal is to, you know, hopefully pass on some information that helps somebody else. And in doing so, you know, to hear it, you know, to have it resonate with somebody who's, you know, 1,600 miles away from me. And then have, you know, seven beautiful conversations so far. And to break my personal ice on podcasting, you know, it's been a fantastic journey for me. And I think it's been a fun conversation so far. Yeah, I agree. And I, it's been rich and rewarding.

And I, like, just going back for a second, I really think that that has, maybe this is something everybody goes through. Maybe this is something that is taught in different mystery schools like that. You know, I. Absolutely. You know, there has to be, there has to be the acknowledgement. You have to let go of your previous attachment. You have to.

You have to. I mean, it's, it's, it's one. of those things it's if if you if you if we go around this cycle and you don't release your previous attachments you don't go up to the next notch because they lay you down and so then you're just going around the toilet bowl and you and you know that's not fun yeah yeah it's not it's so rewarding but at the same time it's scary it's hard to let go of things because you're not quite sure but I'm looking at my bookcase right now and it's just sometimes I just sit in front of my bookcase like this and look at all the damn books and start being like what is it that's tying all

these together and it's like these are all stories that i have read and in a way lived through by reading them and consuming them and then all of a sudden you realize hey here's my book in my book case what does my book say what part of my book is an augumation of all these people's books and then you start thinking like you know what i've i've participated in all these lives of these people and you start seeing the things come together and you think about history. Is it fiction or is it science? It's both. And I don't know.

I'm excited for the future because I can see the scales being ripped away. I can see the rocket leaving the launch pad and like the part coming down as the explosion happens. And it's awesome to be investigating these parts. I'm super excited. Me as well. I think it's, you know, it's a very interesting time. Yeah, I agree. It's, you know, it's not without its turbulence for sure.

And, but at the same time, you know, from just like who I am as a person, you know, to if I was to wake up when I was 12 years old and you were to tell me that the world was just going to keep on going hunky dory and there wouldn't be too much chaos and you would live to about 85, 9 years old and then you kick the bucket and it's just going to be the standard average thing versus it's going to be. a wild ride. Yeah. My 12 year old would take the wild ride every single time. Every time. Every time. And I think, you know, 12 year olds are a bit more close to the natural human condition. And it hasn't been nurtured out of us so much yet.

Yeah. But stay curious, right? I think that's some of the best advice you could ever give anybody. Indeed. I agree. Yeah. Benjamin C. George, absolute blast, my friend. And I feel like the conversations are getting better.

I got, you know what, let me, you got a few more minutes. got some questions here that people wanted this to talk about. Sure. Absolutely. So we got our good friend True Patriots and we got our friend the Metallic Man. And these guys want to talk about some topics that are happening right now. So let me just fire these off at you here. We'll start with this guy, my friend True Patriots right here. He's asking us, the big topic of the day is the FBI and the 87,000 agents in America.

Come in our way. What say you about the FBI rating or the Trumpsters Mar-a-Lago Palace and then the 87,000 agents? Let's start with the first one, the FBI. What do you think? Well, you know, it's it's such a, it's such a dicey thing to have these federal agencies that don't have a, some form of mechanism of removal of power structures. it's you know it's kind of the same idea with you know the people who live in dc on the hill you know they they're the makers and shakers you know it's not the elected politicians it's the people with all the connections to all the lobbyists who've been there for 20 years

who can make five phone calls and get something added to a bill at midnight before it goes to the floor tomorrow uh and the same type of infrastructures and uh you know ability to circumvent channels, if you will, exist in all of those alphabet agents. And, you know, so what do you say about them, rating Trump? I really don't know. There's, you know, unless they announce something,

you know, it's really interesting, the timing of everything in relation to midterms, along with everything else that's happening in the world in relation to midterms. when you factor in what people are projecting to be, you know, a high Republican turnout. And now you try to, you know, you're doing everything you can to stifle that. From a political perspective, it makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, and that's how those people operate.

So, you know, is it a coerced action? Probably just because of the corruption in the institutions themselves. But beyond that, I mean, you know, I don't think it's like any grand sense. the fire of, you know, like a crashing of the Rubicon or anything like that. Yeah. On the topic of the FBI and three-letter agencies, you know, it wasn't that long ago that, you know, Hillary was getting invested for her server. And it wasn't that long ago that Watergate happened.

And I think what you're seeing is a lot more of the same. You're seeing, but it's like you said, for those people that are watching, this FBI invade Trump. You're just seeing the power structure from a different angle than you did when you were a kid. It's been happening this way. This is the way power works. It's just now you're over, now you're getting to see it from this level instead of this level.

Pretty soon you'll see it from this level and then this level. But the song remains the same. And instead of focusing on the idea of the FBI invading Trump, I think you should try to focus on seeing it as for what it is. It's a group of unelected bureaucrats trying to get your attention over here so you don't see what's happening over here. It's a show. It's a reality show

and it's becoming more and more bred and circus than it needs to become more wild and wild to keep your attention so that you don't focus on that which is coming your way. As far as the 87,000 agents, look, the amount of money needed to run the operation is is escalating and that means we need more people writing tickets. Yeah, the 87,000 agents thing, which, you know, the troubling with that was 4,500 firearms

and 5 million rounds of ammunition. So not only are they hiring 87,000 agents, which, you know, they say if you make, first they said, I think, you know, they're not going after anybody, but billionaires a million. And then they said it was anybody who makes over $400,000 a year. But I would hazard a guess that the most likely scenario based on IRS statistics, which is like, you know, in your tax bracket, I think the people who are most likely to get audited are people who make from $40,000 to $100,000 a year. and if you claim the earned income tax rebate, you are four times more likely to be audited than anyone else.

So when you look at those statistics and then you add 87,000 agents to it, and then you subtract the amount of millionaires and billionaires in the country, there's a lot of people that are coming for the middle class. Yeah. And then to arm them is kind of interesting. I mean, I understand to a degree why you would arm IRS. agents. But I don't know.

4,500 guns sounds like a lot. Sounds like a Pinkerton militia type thing. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, the people who have the most money also have family offices. And they don't operate in one currency. They have banks in every country.

Yeah. They're protected. You're not going to get their money. Yeah. And then the tax law. are written in such a way that it doesn't matter if you declare it you're going after millionaires and billionaires. You're just going after millionaires and billionaires who didn't pay the right accountant.

Yeah. That's all that is. And again, there's only so many of those people and it certainly is an 87,000. I think the last time I checked there was only 33 some thousand millionaires in the entire world. Wow. So far, far cry from 87. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that the world of politics is fascinating to watch, but you should be mindful that you're, you're getting into an area that you don't have a whole lot of control over. And it can be debilitating in some ways if you get stuck there, just watching that and then you fall into that trap. I'm like, oh, I've got to do this. I got to do that.

But in reality, you should be worrying about the politics of your own life and your family and your friends where you can have some, kind of play in there. Right, which is a really interesting thing, you know, it's, I've contended for a while, and I've had quite a few debates about it that, you know, by and large, a person's vote in most Western countries doesn't really count anymore. Now, where that argument kind of breaks down is where you get to really local level type stuff, just because that's much harder to manipulate and it's much less valuable on the other end to get a payback from. But at the large scale, it really, it really kind of holds true in most places.

And so to lose yourself into something where you have no power to influence it is just asking for nothing but a never-ending string of anxiety and stress. Yeah. Yeah. I remember a few years back coming to the realization, like, you know, I think by some means we're all political animals. Like we want, we want what's best.

We want what's that. We're tribalistic. Yeah, we are. Agreed. And you can't, on a local level, you do have, if you have a lot of money and you have a lot of influence,

then you can influence people on a local level. And I remember watching and learning about, you know, if you want to know what happens in your country, just look at what happens in other country. Because it's the same thing. It might be a different shade, but the same way that there's a communist ruling class in China,

so too is there a ruling communist class in our country. The same way that we look and we go, look at these people in Russia, man. There's so much corruption with their politics. It's the same over here. Yeah, you say, you say, oh, the Russian oligards. And then it's like, well, who's that in the United States? It's the Clintons.

It's the Bushes. It's the Obama's. It's all of those families who, you know, it's all of those families who, the Kennedys who've been in power forever, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I like a, there's a, though, she's not really a young woman, but she's a very intelligent woman by the name of Catherine Austin Fitz for people who are curious to look her up. And she was the, the, not the chairman, but the secretary of housing, I think under, it might have been under first George Bush or the second George Bush. And she was telling some stories about her background in geopolitics and what's going on now. And I like what she said. Someone was asking her about what she thinks is happening as far as the world around us.

And is it the Western people that are the problem? Is it Europe and the United States or is it China and Russia? What about these lines of division? And she says that I like her theory. And her theory is that we are in the transition to a technocracy right now. And it's it's not that China and Russia are that much different than United States and Europe. It's just that in the United States and Europe, we have oligarchs that are running everything. We have the large corporate world.

We have the large corporations like the world economic form that have gotten together and said, look, we're going to do world government through a corporate structure. And you have China and Russia that said, no, no. we're going to do technocracy through a government structure. But regardless of what color the car is, the world of technocracy is here. It's this world of data-driven ideas through behavior and licensing. It's just, and if you look at Russia, you go, oh, well, look, they just pulled Jack Ma aside and said, listen, you're not going to be the billionaire running stuff or the government running stuff. And over here, we have the oligarchs running stuff. So it's black cat, white cat.

They both catch mice. indeed I think that's a I think that's an interesting outlook on it and I would agree we are moving towards a technocrass

there would pretty much been there and I think that's why we're seeing the erosion of nation states and fracturing the things and yeah

and to that point it's nobody's the bad guy it's and it ties into our previous conversation where it's you know society took its

revolution around things and now it's time to notch up. And, you know, it's just like we don't have any monarchs anymore that are pulling all the street. Yeah, we sure have, we have a couple figureheads still sticking around, but, you know, they're pretty much the last of a dying breed. Yep.

And then, you know, it'll be probably a time not in the too distant future where we'll look back in the idea of nation states. And there might be still a couple kicking around, but the idea is becoming a dying breed. Yeah. And, you know, we've talked a lot about language and, you know, communication. And I think part of that is just, you know, the underlying force, if you will, is the simple act that we're all talking to each other now. So while we have lost a lot of the communal aspects of the dinner table and the dinner party, we have gained the ability to have conversations at a global level.

And because we've started having those conversations, I think that's why we're seeing the next edge up in our cycle here. And I think that's why the things that are bad are now showing themselves as being very bad. And everything's breaking at scale. We're seeing the fractures of all this stuff because now we can communicate. We can have a conversation. You're like, hey, did you know this was happening? No, I didn't.

How could that be happening? I know, right? And so that changes. And then when, you know, that, and then when the local thing happens, somebody goes, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I heard about what they did over here. I don't, we shouldn't do that over here. And so, you know, that changes that those conversations and has been changing those conversation since the advent of global communication.

I think, you know, we're just, we're in that, we're part of that fomenting of that change. Yeah. And that brings us back to the people out there that are worried about the politics in your nation, whether it's, it's Trump or Z or the falling of your economy or the, the uprisings of people in poor areas. instead of focusing on that part of society breaking, I would try to inspire you to see this as an opportunity to build something where that's going to fall

or at least start paying attention to, hey, all this stuff's breaking over here, okay? What does that mean? If that stuff's breaking, do we need a new foundation? Or if that stuff's breaking, we need a bridge. Instead of focusing on all these parts that look like they're chaotic and breaking, look at them like an opportunity as like,

oh, you know what we could do here? We could do this. Hey, this is the first time we could ever have that. Start looking for the, when you see the cracks in the foundation, look for the sunlight coming through. You know, see how the shadow falls, but understand what is that, if there's a crack in the wall,

what is it shining light onto? What is this, what can you see now? What is that shadow showing? But see it as an opportunity, and it'll take away the anxiety. It'll take away the stress and replace it with a glimmer of optimism. Whenever you see a crack in the foundation of the wall,

see it as sunlight shining through instead of something breaking down. And you'll start finding that the people around you are more of an asset than a liability. What is this person upset about? Why are they upset? Oh, I see why they're rioting. And then you can find that common ground

to build something on. And for my friends right here, true patriots and the metallic man, like we all got strong opinions on things that are happening. in, but see them as opportunities, not to opportunity, not to do something opportunistic to someone against you, but an opportunity for yourself to grow. And I think you'll see the world better. Well said. Thank you. I think, you know, it's through, you know, you can't have order without chaos.

Yeah. And, and, and, and it's when we define order from chaos that we, you know, that, that, that is the kind of the foundation of what differentiates us from anything else on this planet is we have that we have a fairly unique ability to take chaos and make order.

And that's something all of us have. We all have our own way of doing that. And I think, I think too, I know that I used to get stuck in this hole and this idea of like, oh, there's all these people with all the power and all the authority.

But in the grand scheme of things, I think everybody has the ability. Like I think the halls of power are kind of empty, really, when you start looking at the leader. Oh, you're like, that guy's in charge? Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, no.

It's, it's a clown car, you know, at the head of the thing. Right. Which is, I find comforting personally. You know, if it was a centralized cabal that had all of their shitwound titan had, you know, had been working on it for, thousands of years and had everybody under their finger, there's not a lot of opportunity. But when you got a whole bunch of people just kind of shooting from the hip, there's a lot of opportunity. Yeah.

You have a lot more potential of getting further in life than you've ever even imagined if you just start looking at it from that angle. If you get away from the oppressive idea that people control you or there's people in charge or someone in authority knows what they're doing. Chances are you know just as much as that person. Maybe you didn't go to the same school. Maybe you didn't come to the same family. But I guarantee you you've been through hardships in your life that have earned you a spot at some of the highest levels if you're willing to believe in yourself. And I just hope people take that for what it's worth because it's so true. And we need more people that have been on the bottom to sit at the table.

I think there was an old saying that says something like, right? There's just, one old saying that people's talked about that said if you don't have a seat at the table then you're on the menu so just force your way to the table well you know in my perspective everybody has a seat at the table if they so choose to to sit there that that comes the question yeah uh and yeah i i i echo your idea we do need more people who want to sit at the table and and have the adult conversation and and do the things and you know change the world a little bit Yeah, and I think that's what we're doing here. At least that's what I tell myself.

And I, ladies and gentlemen, Benjamin C. George, the first book of the hype, well, the first book's out. And it's called No Absolutes of Framework for Life. The trilogy is in the works. We've talked a little bit about the second book. We'll be talking more about those books coming down later in further conversations. Benjamin C. George, where can people find you? What are you got coming up? And do you want to leave the people with anything else?

As always, Benjamin C.george.com. I will be having a no absolute podcast coming up here in the next couple of weeks. George is going to come be a guest, and I'm saying that live so he can't say no to me. And, yeah, you know, looking out into the world right now, especially right now, it could be a completely chaotic thing. But when you bring it just to yourself, your family,

and you start looking at things and you remove the absolutes from your life and you start taking things with a grain of salt and looking at things through perspective and lens and realizing that the words that you use identify not just your thoughts but your actions and the results in your life all of a sudden everything that you could possibly want to do in life

want to achieve every success that you think you might want you can go off and do it. And the roadblocks, the hills, the mountains that you thought were there before, you realized they were actually just mirages in the desert. Wow, that was really well said. Really well said. Ladies and gentlemen, that's what we got for this week. This is out right now.

The podcast will audio be up in a little bit. And all the links will be below. So thank you for joining us today. And we'll talk to you soon. Aloha.