TrueLife - Adam Garfinkle - The Psychedelic Renaissance

Episode Date: May 13, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Adam GarfinkleMy now 26-year-old son, Nik, was diagnosed with major depressive disorder in his late teens. We spent years riding the psychopharmacology merry-go-round and finally realized he was treatment-resistant to traditional anti-depressants. In 2019, after years of suffering, we traveled to Peru where Nik spent three weeks at an ayahuasca retreat. This turned out to be a life-changing experience and diverted our path toward psychedelic solutions. Upon returning to the U.S., we found a wonderful doctor in San Diego that treated Nik with ketamine, After suffering intensely for many years, Nik is now living a productive life while receiving maintenance doses of Ketamine.Due to a variety of personal challenges and during the period that I was learning more about psychedelic medicine, I did not realize that I was falling into my own depression.Consequently, I received Ketamine treatment which created my own life changing benefits.Since personally experiencing the healing power of psychedelic medicine, I have been called to dedicate the remainder of my career to the psychedelic healing movement.As an experienced capital markets and business development professional, I can provide industry participants with much-needed assistance in capital raising, capital strategy, investor relations, and business/ corporate development. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, well, oh, well, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful Friday. I hope that you're in the arms of the people you love, you're at least surrounded by them or they're next to you or you're thinking about them. Hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing.

I have an incredible guest here today and I'm really truly thankful to be in his presence and get to share with him some cool stories. And I hope that everyone, I don't hope, I know that the people who listen to this will be as just as inspired as I am. So let me introduce Adam Garfinkel. He's the fractional CFO, business development professional, leading figure in the capital markets, It's a well-known venture capitalist, a leader, a mentor, and a father, and someone who has a giant spotlight that can shine it on the path of which people can walk down when they feel they are faced with trauma. Adam, so stoked you're here today.

How are you today, my friend? Thank you, buddy. Appreciate it. Doing good. Doing good. Nice. Yeah, it's such a beautiful, interesting time that we live in, but it's not without tragedy. And one thing that I have noticed in this area that we're living in right now is that I think that there's people, I think the one Ariadne thread that kind of ties us all together is this idea of trauma.

Like we all go through it and so many people suffer and they don't know there's people there to help. And you may have gone through huge traumas and the guy next to you has gone through the same trauma, but we don't talk about it. It's been pushed down for so long. I was just kind of wondering if maybe you could begin with a little introduction in your origin story. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, if I go back too far, it'd be really boring. Right, right. So, but, you know, basically had an ideal childhood. You know, I never had the big childhood trauma or anything like that, you know, pretty normal stuff.

My career has been mostly investment banking, worked in the hedge fund industry, private equity, that sort of thing. You know, I think I've gotten much more active on LinkedIn about six months ago. Really, I was very impacted because of the journey that I was on with my son, Nick. And unfortunately, you know, this turned from what, you know, was potentially a happy ending to a very sad ending. So, you know, I could probably start when, you know, with Nick, we, we've been on a journey together because when he was in his teens, he was diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And it wasn't for many years that we actually discovered that he was treatment resistant because no doctor even brought up that term. We had no idea what it meant. We went down the traditional psychopharmacology route where, you know, once he was able to express in his teens, like something's not right.

I don't feel good. I think I'm depressed, which later on, he said, you know, that it really started when he was his earliest memories, four or five, six years old, but he didn't have the words to express it. He didn't know why he felt different, but he struggled his whole life. So we, you know, went to a psychologist, psychiatrist. They started him on traditional SSRIs, traditional medication. And, you know, for many people, they probably understand you take the meds for, and they'll say, you know, it takes four to six weeks to kick in. And then you'll start feeling good.

Well, that didn't happen. And then they would increase the dose and nothing would happen. And then they would say, okay, we're going to add this. And then we're going to increase the dose of that. And after about 12 weeks, they say, okay, that medicine didn't work. So we're going to wound off and we're going to start with something else. That's the trial and error process that occurs. That's, you know, in more than, I don't know what it's been, 50, 60, 70 years,

nothing much has changed in psychopharmacology. And so we did that literally for years, you know, age 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And all that time, he just suffered. and I think over time he suffered worse. He went off to college and couldn't really get through a freshman year. I'm sure he did have the typical freshman year fun and join a fraternity and all that, but he couldn't get to class, couldn't get out of bed at times, you know, combining, you know, academics with the fraternity challenges wasn't going to work for him

because he just didn't have the capacity to do that. So we, at this point in time, we still don't know basically how do we handle this. What do we do? And thought, okay, take a semester off. He loves, he loves snowboarding, you know, go out to Vail, work it out in Vail. and you'll be out in nature and all these people having fun on the slopes and you'll snowboard. And of course, that didn't work either because, you know, he was, he had something that was not right. That, and unfortunately to this day, we really never figured out, you know, what or why. But then in his, kind of in his second, he tried going back to school again, just still suffering. And he, without telling me at first, came across psilocybin via, you know, magic mushrooms.

And there was a mycologist in the town that he was, it was in Boone, North Carolina, which is a bohemian kind of, you know, hippie town, really cool. And so he could access that, of course, not legally. And when he started telling me about, I was first very scared. I didn't understand what that was. I didn't understand psilocybin. All I knew was that mushrooms were something that happened in the 60s and 70s. A lot of people got in trouble and, you know, you can become a drug addict. And so, but he convinced me that this was therapeutic.

It was a medicine. It was actually helping him. And then I got on board and was like, okay, you know, whatever you need. Let's make sure you can get it and try to get it in a way that's safe and, you know, under the radar. And unfortunately, he became resistant to psilocybin. So what initially, he would get this glimpse of what relief was like and to feel, you know, good. And he would tell me like it's unbelievable, not only the journey itself, but afterwards, just the release of all. all that dark cloud and the ability for your brain, your thoughts to slow down and be able to live

in the moment. And then it just stopped. And, you know, whether it was microdosing, whether it was, you know, he took some amazingly heroic doses because we didn't know what else to do. And it just didn't work. And he was still in North Carolina. I had moved out to California in early 2016. And then kind of came out to San Diego. And again, we went and saw a psychiatrist and psychologists and did, you know, they would do brain images and all these things to try to figure out what was going on. And we just couldn't get an answer. At that time, we didn't really know anything more about the psychedelic community. This was 2018 or so. And then in 2019, kind of like at the end of our rope, he learned about ayahuasca and started to educate me about

it. And we started to do research early in 2019. And we, you know, there was, there's not as, it wasn't as prolificate as it is now, but there were plenty of retreats. And, and, We thought if it's indigenous to Peru, then let's go to Peru. So we started learning more about it and interviewing different retreats. And we found one and decided, let's go through, you know, do three weeks. You know, they offered one, two, and three weeks and figured we'll do that. So he went to the retreat. I went down to South America while he was there just so I was on the continent.

And he had what would be, and when he went, he was really in really bad shape, like, you know, at the end of his row. And he had what he would call a life-changing experience, very profound experience, but it was also very hard. It was emotionally hard, physically hard. And when I say that, you know, you talk to people that have gone down the ayahuasca path, and that's not in common. the purging, but his was exceptionally hard and more difficult than the others that were there. And where some had euphoric experiences and were, you know, he described one guy that was a leopard running through the jungle. And it was, you know, amazing. And I met some of the, some of the people that he had gone with after we went to Machu Picchu

and we spent some time with some of his colleagues. And I could tell. their experiences were different, but what he did and this was pretty intense. In three weeks, he did 12 ayahuasca ceremonies. Whoa. Five MEO.

Whoa. They did the, I can't remember what it is where they burn the something into your skin. Like sage or inside. Oh, they burn something into your skin? Well, they burn your skin with these dots. And I don't know if it was like the

frog venom or something. I can't remember. They did a sweet. sweat, you know, a sweat thing. And, and he, you know, he felt like it was a life-changing experience. It gave him hope. And what the, I think the most amazing thing that I remember him telling me was that he saw another realm.

He saw another dimension that was very impossible to describe with words. but he said it was peaceful and beautiful and that he believed that that was the place where we all go and we're all interconnected. Now, I don't know, you know, necessarily what that means or how, you know, I've not been there. So I don't know. But the way he described it, he didn't have faith because faith, I think, is something where you're believing in something that. that there's no evidence or proof, I guess, maybe one way to describe it. He was certain.

He was certain that this existed. That's where we went and that things were better. And he told me, like, I'm not afraid to die. It's, you know, it's just this beautiful path. And it's just part of our experience on this planet. And who knows, you know, what happens next. But so that gave him hope. And it gave him a desire to continue to live and a desire to want to spread the word and help others.

And really, that's where his passion started to kick in. And I started learning more about that as well. And when we got back to San Diego, what was difficult was trying to keep that momentum going. because at that point we didn't know what to do. And we went back to, you know, the traditional, you know, psychiatrists. We did go to a frame clinic. We went to all these different, you know, places. And we landed on a doctor in Del Mar, his name is Rustin Burlow, that started treating Nick with ketamine.

And he's the, if you go to his, his Yelp page or his Google page, and you look at the, and you look at the reviews he has, you'll see. see one after the other people saying, Dr. Burla saved my life. Dr. Burl saved my life. It's really amazing. And that's this is where we learned about ketamine. And Nick started getting treatment with ketamine. And we've all heard the typical protocol of six kind of six treatments over a three-week period. And Dr. Burlow looks at everyone very individualistic, very unique and bespoke and in protocol with nick was different he he extended that out and in addition to ketamine he uses tms in conjunction with it so there were times when nick was actually receiving an

ib ketamine and receiving tm s at the same time vagus nerve stimulation other type of brain stimulation techniques um and talk therapy so it was you know all that combination that that that and he used the term layering is with dr grillo like that yeah and and it really extended out over about a 12 week period and it also included ECT so nip had electroconvulsive therapy as well so he was poked prodig shocked you know and i remember we'd go to the hospital about at at first like three days a week for his ECT and he was just zapped you know and for the next 24, 48 hours. It was, you know, pretty, you know, Jesse was just wiped out. But what happened was over that period of time, basically, it got to a point where he, he was able to, he was motivated,

and he wanted to move on and what was the next step. And he had a friend that was working on a ranch in Montana, a resort, and who, you know, invited him to come apply for a job. And in in 20, uh, 21, early 20. So we went and we went through the pandemic together, which is challenging too. And that's actually when we, we learned about, um, the, the other ketamine, uh, the, uh, the, uh, lozinch ketamines because, you know, nothing was available. So we said Nick did laws and chetamine where he was counseled by Lauren Touse, which is an amazing therapist in Los Angeles who has this incredible practice.

and she educates other therapists as well. And she did, you know, she really, Nick was very fond of Lauren and, you know, got considerable value out of, out of that treatment. But early 2021, he went off to Montana and worked on the ranch for about 10 months. And it was not receiving any type of treatment. So, you know, he was not on any type of medication. I think it would have been beneficial if he was able to have ketamine while he was there, but he was in the middle of nowhere in Montana.

So, but he, for the first time, he held a job, he worked, he, he had a social network. You know, it was a really great experience for him. And, but after about 10 months, he, you know, I think it was probably a combination of things, but one that he couldn't access ketamine there, I think was pretty challenging. It, you know, makes me more, made me more aware of the lack of access that's available, you know, for many people, for many different reasons. And so he came back and he, the war had broken out in Ukraine. And he was overwhelmed with the desire that he needed to go help. And he didn't want to go to the front lines in battle, but he wanted to help.

but he wanted to help the refugees. And he established a go-fund me campaign and found a buddy in San Diego. And they met a nonprofit called the House of Ukraine that was established in San Diego, who were having trouble getting the goods into the right hands when they sent it over. And these were both medical supplies and clothing. and basically if they had someone that could physically take them there, they know they could get them there. So he worked with the House of Ukraine.

There was also a benefactor in San Diego. I don't know who it was, but supplied six drones. And they brought all this stuff over there. British Airways was kind enough not to charge them for the exit baggage. And they literally drove the drones into Ukraine and handed them to the Ukrainian military. Whoa. That's out of control, man. I love it. It's amazing. I was tracking. Yeah, I was tracking him on my, you know, on my phone. Like he made sure he gave me access to his location and I would see him waiting at the, you know, see his blue dots at the border.

And then, you know, for an hour and then I see it slowly going across. Right. And he ended up doing amazing things. He did some volunteer work with the World Central Kitchen. And in Poland, and then he would go back to Krakow, get more supplies, drive it into Ukraine. He stayed at elementary school inside the border where refugees were being housed. And it was there for about, I don't know, four or five, six weeks. And it was, although it was very inspirational and he was living out this dream to help these people, It was also challenging for him that what he didn't see the front lines, but he saw these people that were displaced from their homes that had loved ones that were killed, that were grieving, just a magnitude of humanity.

And it wore on him. And, you know, he called me, I really need to come home. I, you know, I don't want to leave, but I don't think this is good for me. to continue to see all this sorrow and pain, and even though he was helping so many people. So he came back. And so, you know, one of the things that unfortunately, you know, happened is we realize that his psychedelic therapy and treatment got him to that point,

but nothing like the psilocybin, nothing really provided him the relief that many people receive that you hear about and read about. And I think it's important to make people aware that while we're very excited about this new potential and how these compounds, molecules can help so many people, which he definitely believed and was an advocate because he saw it happen in front of his eyes with other people. unfortunately they didn't work for him necessarily and that will always remain a mystery we don't know why and we tried to figure out why and so with everything that we tried and did whether it was you know psilocybin iowasca you know in ceremony with shamans and and an extremely qualified

psychedelic therapists to more traditional therapists, DMT, 5MEO DMT, MDMA, MDMA, you know, we, we, I think we went down every path except for IBA game is the only psychedelic compound that we didn't pursue. And unfortunately, it just never provided him the relief, whatever his body chemistry and makeup was. And part of my story is in 2020, you know, 2021, 2022, out of the pandemic, I had my own challenges. You know, as a father watching your son struggle, it's very challenging and, you know, was heartbreaking that I could not fix the issue. Everything we did, I couldn't get them healthy. And so that in itself was difficult. I had come out when I came out to San Diego. I worked for

this high-flying, you know, fintech company, private company, and for a variety of reasons beyond everyone's control. It didn't work out. So that was a disappointment. And I had a failed relationship. So I was going into my own, you know, challenges psychologically, mentally. And I didn't reach out for help. I really held it in and did not do what I should have done and what I would encourage other people to do. And I isolated myself. And I got to a point where finally I was, it was getting to the point where if I didn't reach out for help, you know, things weren't, you know, it was going to get really bad. I ended up going to, to, to, to the, the doctor that that nick went to um so in a way nick nick uh created this path for me yeah totally yeah

and um and i'm the other side of the spectrum from what nick experienced so my second after my second ketamine treatment i woke up the next morning and the cloud that had been covering me for the last 18 months, those negative thought patterns that were going through my head, where I was constantly thinking about the past and decisions I made that should have done something different, that sort of thing, and then anxious about the future. So that repetitive, you know, pattern that I could not get out of was gone. And I woke up that morning and thought, like, like what's going on? Why why do I feel different? You know, I it was nothing for me, nothing less than miraculous. It was a miracle because when you're when you're in that and I know a lot

of people, you know, have that similar situation so they can relate to it and suddenly it's gone. Wow. And so I'm in that camp where where and you know there's arguments about whether that it means a true psychedelic, whatever. I don't really care. All I know is that it saved me and it did it really fast. And then during my third treatment, I remember I was overwhelmed with this just desire, need, you know, just this feeling that I've got to tell people about this. More people need to know about this. More people need to be healed by this, or at least given the opportunity. opportunity to feel. And tears started flowing down my face. And I just, from that moment on, I said,

okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is my mission. I don't know what I'm going to do. I had no idea. I was the guy, you know, you read a lot of stuff. It's neuroscience. It's chemistry. It's, you know, I was the guy who always, you know, set the chemistry lab on fire. And, you know, that was so foreign for me. So I, but I, I just started to network on LinkedIn, an incredible tool. Yeah. And originally just went out to my existing network. And I wasn't very active on LinkedIn, but I had my existing network was mainly financial

services. And I just said, you know, very, I was very open with my experience with Nick, myself, and said, look, this is my mission now. So if you can please, you know, connect me to people you know that might be in this space. And then suddenly, you know, I got a ping here and a ping there and a text and an email. And it was really interesting how many people that I had no idea might have connection to the space, suddenly had connection to the space. And then it just started to grow exponentially, my network.

And I started meeting company. founders. I started meeting VCs that were investing in these companies. And I recognize, okay, maybe there is a place for me here where I could utilize the skills that I've developed over my career and apply them to this space. And just started, I volunteered with a couple of organizations, the Kedomene Task Force, the Psychedelic Access Fund. And then started doing pro bono work. Anyone that want help with anything financial related, I just said, I'll do it. And And got to a point where, you know, founders that are in need of raising capital, some of them are extremely brilliant scientifically, but they just haven't had the experience of raising capital. It's something I did my whole career.

So I helped, you know, organize their presentations and make introductions. And it really grew from there. And now I have, you know, essentially a business that is assisting different companies. components of the ecosystem. And so I found a place where I could have value. And I'm hoping that what I can do is bring capital to companies and founders and scientists and that are well intended that and the capital is aligned with the mission. And I've also, you know, seen and I put a post up probably a couple months ago on LinkedIn,

where I've seen, you know, what we're experiencing now in the psychedelic space where it's, it's, there's a, there's a euphoria. I think the bubble got popped a little bit already, but there was this, uh, incredible euphoria and a lot of capital flowing, especially when rates were zero and capital is free and, and, and, and, and, but I've seen this happen many times in different, uh, different sectors of the, of the marketplace over my 37 year, 37 years, 37 years of business. And I saw similar things happening where fast money was coming in, just looking for fast exit, which in some cases actually did work early on, but that's not the case anymore. Less intended people were getting access to money. And that's really a shame

because those that really need the money that are doing the great things, then have less availability to it. But there's a ton of great people. I've never met more generous, kind, empathetic group of people in my whole career is within this community. And then the sad end of the story is that Nick continued. the struggle and things just kept getting more and more difficult and challenging. And we had a lot of conversations, you know, about, you know, he, he again expressed to me that that he wasn't

afraid to die, that he was in so much pain. And it's almost like we just ran out of resources. We just, there was nothing left. I don't know if if it was purposeable or, or I don't know. accidental. I'll never know that. But I know he's at peace and I know he's in that place that he described to me and he's out of pain. And so if there's any, you know, anything that helps me through this is that I don't have to see him suffer. Unfortunately, I, you know, I don't see him. I don't see him. I'm heartbroken and, and sad. And, um, I don't have to see him. I'm heartbroken and, and, uh, and sad. And, um, I'm devastated and I miss him so much. And this is his shirt that I wear.

Yeah. This is one of his many shirts. He loved the tie-dye look. And so I honor him now by wearing his clothing, which is a little bagging on me because he was a bigger guy. But I can still feel him and smell. And so now I'm, I was already motivated now. I know this can help more people.

I know that this is a solution that will be embedded in our medical framework. I believe that. That we lost so many years of R&D from 1970 to whatever, the mid-90s, 2000. And now it's happening again. And I think we need to make sure we're responsible around. you know, the hype and it doesn't work for everybody and or maybe we're just not there yet. We don't have enough information to understand that. But that's that that's my story, man.

Man, it's, it's, it blows me away. Thank you for sharing that with me. And I, I think there's a component that we kind of danced around. It's this idea of a revealed spiritual. nature that begins to grow inside of us. And when I hear you talk about Nick and like even though he may not be there with you now, like he has inspired so much help for so much more people. You know, his spirit, however we want to define spirit.

Maybe people define it as an energy, people define it as someone they see. It's defined so many ways. But I think it is imperative for people to understand the connection between psychedelics and spirituality. If you do psychedelics, you can't not. begin to see this spiritual nature unfold. And if you, you could say that Nick is no longer with this, or you could say now he's only begun to begin his mission. Like look at, just look at what you've accomplished because of him in the last six months. Look at the people that you've inspired.

Look at the light you've shown on doctors like Rustin Barlow or, you know, Laura Tows. Like, and think about like our Prima is just talking to us now. And he's like, Adam is so awesome. Like, You know, and every time somebody says Adam is awesome, what they're really doing is they are speaking highly of the spirit of Nick. And look, if he wouldn't have gone through those things, then maybe another kid would have had to. If he didn't go through those things with you, then maybe a different father would have had to.

Maybe someone that didn't have the ability to do what you did. Maybe, maybe, and you know what Adam? There's kids out, kids and fathers out there right now that are probably battling, trying to figure out their relationship. Maybe the story you tell helps five kids out there, helps five fathers cope with something, helps them come up with an idea. And you know as well as I do when you spoke about how these kind of traumas can damage relationships with your other loved ones and isolates everybody. And then there's this guilt because you're like, oh my God, I'm not paying attention to that. And then Nick feels that.

My son, Ocean, like our families feel that. We suffer together. And even though someone may not be here with us physically, I think it's unfair to say that they're not here because the spirit is here. And they may be larger than ever now. You know, it could be a transition that we go through where we can move forward and help people. And when I hear the language, like it's a beautiful place, I'm supposed to be there. Maybe that pain is a siren call calling people to the other side because they're needed there.

You know, and I know that that sounds metaphysical, but I believe that with all of my heart, Adam. And I believe that the people that, you know, in Hawaii we have this saying that says, we're all ancestors in training. And I don't know how prayers are answered, but I do know that they are. Some pray to Buddha. Some pray to Muhammad. Some pray to God. But I'm telling you, there's a force bigger than you can understand. And it's helping us move through this.

And I think it's stories like this. Having the courage to tell a candid story that you know wounds you every time you tells it. Maybe every time it wounds you, it strengthens somebody else. And I love it, man. I'm so thankful that you talk about it because it's important. People are going through this. They need help. And it's just beginning.

It's this next wave, this moving forward. And every one of us plays a role in moving forward. Let me add. Let me throw this question to you. You know, as hard as that is to talk about that. And thank you for that. What are some of the gifts that you think have been provided to you since this has happened? And how are you wielding them?

Yeah, that's a great question. And so I really have to go back to what we talked about before the recording is my daughter, Marissa, who was, you know, she was still born. And she was, she was perfect. There was nothing wrong with it. There was a blood clot in the umbilical cord. That's, that's what caused oxygen couldn't flow. And, you know, when we were getting ready to deliver, that happened. And, and, and, uh, so out of that,

experience, which was extremely tragic. I started getting counseling from other bereaved parents that went through the exact same thing. And I was told, like, there will be gifts. You'll receive gifts from her. That's so hard to hear. It's so hard to believe that when that happens. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to acknowledge your child, too, emotion, and we shared that with me. And thank you for sharing. sharing your story with me. Of course. But one of the things that I was taught, there's a number of things. But one of the first gifts I received, I would, and we had a formal funeral for Marissa,

Nick, we had a celebration of life, which. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Amazing. Yeah. But I remember I would go to the cemetery. and we were in Atlanta at the time, and now we'd just wander the cemetery,

and you start looking at headstones, and you see how many young people have passed away, and it made me think about how many other parents were struggling with. It's not only babies, because she was surrounded by probably 50 babies in the cemetery, but just you wander through, and you see, oh, this person lived 20,

this person 15, this person 33, And it just overwhelmed me like, you know what? People don't always live their life, their full life. And they die young. And it was the first time I really thought about that. And it gave me this ability. It started to give me this ability to be understanding of the tragedies that exists in our life day and day out.

They happen. And if you haven't been touched by it, you're just lucky. because that's the reality. The reality is these things happen, and they happen greater than we can imagine, unless you've been through it. So that was one gift. And then the other thing, obviously, was without that tragedy,

Nick wouldn't have come into our world. It just wouldn't have happened, you know. He wouldn't have been here. So that was the greatest gift she could have given me. But, you know, I think she, in the experience, I went through over my grief process. And I was saying like when you lose a child at birth, people have gone through a pregnancy with you,

your families, your neighbors, your store clerks, you're the dry cleaner guy, the waitresses, you know, everywhere you went for nine months or, you know, for the last, I don't know, five or six months. You know, you're sharing it. They're seeing it. And then when you come back and you're around town and people are just saying, oh, how's the baby? How's the baby?

And then you have to explain what happened. It's gut wrenching. It's painful. You find yourself consoling that person because they feel so bad they ask this question. But then the pain's so great, you just isolate because you don't want to go through that pain anymore. So it was really a couple years process of getting to a point where I could trust. life again and I was okay telling the story without being so devastated and and then Nick came to us during that period of time which going through that second pregnancy was was horrific in itself

the worry and concern but you know that that process of knowing that grief is an individual experience that there is no timeframe, no timeline, no right or wrong, prepared me for what I'm going through now and knowing that I have the ability to do it however I want to without feeling any judgment. I've also been able to help others. Along the way over these many years have had opportunities to help other people that have gone through the process.

and everyone's experience is unique and different, but there's this bond. When you lose a child that, that, you know, that we have now. Yeah. That other people that I've met, you just instantly have that connection. And it gives you the ability, I believe, to honor their grief and their sorrow and to have an understanding like no one. else. So I, so she prepared me for what I'm going through right now and it's given me the strength to be able to speak out and make people aware of my situation, Nick's situation, his story. And, and hopefully, like you said, look, if, if I help one person, that's,

that's all that matters. If there's one father that we have compassion for their child, you know, boy or girl, that that now can say, instead of saying, just get out of bed and go do this and, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. It just doesn't work that way. And if I can educate more people and to have more compassion and empathy for this crisis we're in, because when I think about young people or many of Nick's friends that spoke so beautifully at this celebration and talked about how he impacted their lives and provided them with, more meaning and knowing that, you know, we should be more kind and empathetic and caring.

That's what he did to them. And it was amazing to hear them tell this in front of this crowd of people that joined to celebrate Nick as we drank his favorite beer, sour monkey, had a brewery and celebrated his life because that's how we wanted to remember him. And I think, you know, there's so many people that are struggling today, especially young people because they've grown up with an iPhone. They've grown up with Instagram and Facebook and they've grown up with war. I remember as a kid seeing the news of Vietnam playing on TV. I remember the scrolling of the dates, I guess, that disclosed the draft, you know,

draft numbers, things like that. And this is in the late 60s, early 70s. But when that was done, there was almost, I remember as I went off to college and when we would talk about it in Vietnam, that it was almost like, there'll never be another war because of the you know what the lessons learned from this horrific conventional war and now we have these nuclear weapons that can just blow things up so so i kind of grew up thinking like well that will never happen again and then you know for kids that were born like when my kids were born all they've seen is war on tv from 9-11 on it's just been war and then you add in the iPhone and just the other

stresses that have accompanied technology, which I'm, you know, it's as great as it is bad. But I think it's just caused an incredible epidemic globally that, and we're not able to treat it with the traditional means that has been used over the last 50 to 70 years. And so, you know, I don't think there's any turning around. I think, you know, we're seeing the legislation that is being created in different states. There's a lot of challenges, you know, is the Oregon model, you know, correct? Is it, you know, there's been debates about now this first center came on and what they're charging for. And in my view, I don't know what their economic model looks like, but I don't think they're overcharging.

They're probably just, they're embedded with costs associated with licensing and regulation. and I think they're probably charging a fair markup, but this is the cost associated with it. So I think as different states start to look at the legislative process around legalization, we got to look at that. I don't know what the answer is, but what I do know is that there needs to be more access. And those without the means need to have access as great as those with the means.

And that's not available today. So that's another thing I'm working on with the nonprofits that I'm involved in the Kedomene Task Force and also the Psychedelic Access Fund are both trying to really gain more access for those in need. That's well said. I'm very fortunate. I get to talk to a lot of fascinating and passionate people. And I've begun to see this new picture emerging or what it at least it looks like a new form to me. And the form that I see, the problem for access is that the people that really need it, that really, really need it, can't afford it. You know, the people that have come back and have PTSD and are under a bridge or the people that can't even hold a relationship because they have that negative thought pattern in their mind that just won't shut up.

Like, how do you get that there? in my mind, like there is licensing, there's all this stuff. But I think that you're going to see this is all, if you just, if you just look at it, there's this wave of optimization beginning to happen. And you're seeing neural feedback paired with layered therapies of 5MEO and IOSCA together. And that's very expensive. But the people that have money to optimize, and it does optimize, I don't care what if you're an athlete, if you're in finance, or if you're a UPS driver.

Once you begin going down the path of optimization, I believe that. that these therapies move you into a higher cognitive level of being able to see things in a different way. And I think that the model of optimization, people that have money can pay for optimization, that money that can be funneled back to help people that need it. So I think it could subsidize there, whether it's Ibo gain for homeless people. But I think you're beginning to see people like Nick Murray, who's got a spot in Jamaica, and he has got some incredible people. He was part of the ESPN campaign that brought down people like Riley Coat.

and brought down people from the NFL that had traumatic brain injury. But he has state-of-the-art cutting-edge technology that's very expensive. But these are some people that are willing to pay for that. I think that if there was a model, there was a one-stop place that you could funnel that money back and recycle into the people that needed it, I think that you're going to see the first wave is healing and then optimization and it feeds back. And it's almost like the hero's journey at it. I'm like a big Joseph Campbell fan.

You start off with trauma, then you move over here to the idea, of medicine and integration, and then you move up to optimization, and then you're right back to the healer. So it's almost like this full circle model, and I see it beginning to happen. It's like a spiral moving up, and it's not easy, it's not fast, but there are pathways coming, and I'm just so excited that there's people out there that are doing it. And I wanted to say on the topic of losing a child, there's really no, everyone will try to console you, and they have great intentions, don't be mad at them even though you're upset. And there's not a whole lot of good advice you could give. But the best advice that I ever got when I lost my son was somebody pulled

me aside and say, George, tell everybody you know. Go on your contact list. Tell every single person you know. And I remember just looking at him. I'm like, that's crazy. And I told him like, that's ridiculous. And he goes, no, no. He's like, you don't get it. But you will have to relive that experience every time. And no matter how many people you tell George, in a year from now, in two years from now, you're going to run into somebody that didn't know. And they're going to ask you about your son and you're going to have to relive it. And like, I get goosebumps thinking about it because like, it's so true. When you have to relive that, man, you might think you're over something, man.

But when you are confronted with it on an idle Tuesday at 4 p.m. at the beach, you know what I mean? So tell everybody, people. I agree to be 100%. It's interesting. No one told me that when we lost Marissa. But I kind of, it, it then made sense to me. Yes.

Because it was almost like I had to protect myself. And the way I protect myself is let everybody know because of those reasons that, that you just said. So it was kind of natural for me to share. I had already been very vocal about my story with Nick. And just so everyone knows, he, he was aware of that. We discussed how, you know, he wanted me to articulate his story because he wanted more people to know his story. So I had his permission. And but, but I, I agree with the 100%, you know, it's, it's, well, the other thing is it's just,

this is life. And, and why should we try to hide this versus anything else when we see people talk about getting a new job on LinkedIn or, you know, what, whatever might happen? And I think, you know, if, if people are. get more comfortable with talking about it because I've I've already you know had so many people that have been so amazingly supportive and compassionate and have come to me and shared um sorry no minor man minor that's my mom yeah tell me said hello yeah and uh so um uh you know and and And then there's others that say like, you know, you're so strong.

How, you know, how can you do this? And it's not a matter of strength. It's, it's really a matter of duty and honor and to make people aware that what my son's struggle was so that I can help the people he wanted to help, you know, which is basically anyone that has any type of struggle like this. So I'm trying to get that story out and to make sure that more people understand. it's okay to talk about it, you know, it's less, it's more painful to have it all, you know, inside. And back to your, you know, I've seen many examples of clinics that have sliding

scale payment structures where, you know, those that can pay more are subsidizing those that can't. And Dr. Burlow often charges zero for some patients, just out of the kindness of his heart. Right. Uh-oh. Hold on. Yeah, no worries, man. No worries.

Talk the electric guy. All right. So I think there's a lot of people out there that are doing great things in creating more awareness, but or more access. But what I'm surprised about is there are, there are. not a lot, but there's a few people that have the ability to really influence something, write some really big checks in the scheme of things. The Mark Zuckerberg's, the Lisa Laura Jock. I know they do wonderful things. Sure. You know, and they have their passion projects.

But I, I, I don't know that, that this community has a champion. of that magnitude yet. Right. And I really love to see that happen where an Oprah Winfrey, a Michael Jordan, you know, whoever, anyone that's got a B behind their name, write that kind of check, you know, and there's a lot of guys that have M's behind them and hundreds of M's. But I think that's what's really required. There's an organization I'm getting involved in.

I'm not sure if you're familiar. It's called Treat California. And I don't recall the acronym. But basically what it's doing is it's creating, it's trying to get the signatures necessary to create a ballot initiative that would be voted on by the citizens of California to create a fund, a $5 billion fund that would be allocated towards psychedelic research and development. Wow.

In the state of California. Yeah. So I'm, I'm sorry. I don't have, you know, the action, but if you Google treat California, you'll learn more about it. And that can make a huge impact, you know, a number that big. And I just think that, but what needs to happen is there actually needs to be money raised so that a firm can be hired to get a million wet signatures. So in order for the ballot initiative to occur, that's what needs to. to happen. And so they're in the process of raising that money right now, which I say, you know,

look, it's real easy for me to spend Mark Zuckerberg's money. But he could write a check like that. You know, it's like me going out for a steak dinner. And, and that's what needs to happen. Sorry, helicopter. No, minor. Yeah. And I think if the community could get that type of advocacy, from those type of philanthropists with that magnitude of capital, it can make significant. Do you think about what Rick Doblin's done? Yeah. Kind of cobbling together this money over 35-year period. It's just unbelievable.

And you see that guy all over the planet. You know, he's such an amazing, he's been such an amazing advocate and he's done so much. but, you know, it's going to take even tens millions more dollars to get to the end goal for for maps. And so, and they're struggling right now and given the economy's struggling, but there's a lot of people out there, I think that could help. We just got to get to them and get them educated. Yeah.

And, you know, I live here in Hawaii, and there's a few people with bees behind them, whether it's Zuckerberg and Kauai or Oprah and Maui or Larry Ellison that those are in the four seasons over there on Lanai. You guys are all beautiful, awesome people, and I would encourage you if by some miracle you're listening to this and you have a B behind your name, I would hope you're inspired by a guy named Adam who has an inn behind his name. And that in stands for Nick. I think there's passion there, man. You know, are you okay on time? Do you have another minute? Yeah, let me just check. I'm sorry. No worries at all. If not, I can bring you back. I just had one another question that was that you brushed on. But we can touch on later. I actually have a call with Prima. I just talked to him yesterday.

You tell that guy, I love his origin story. I mean, he's really cool. I love Prima, his partner Rose and Motenka. Yeah. Yeah, they're awesome. And, yeah, I'm working with them right now and trying to bring their dream. The stack. Yeah, the stack, man.

Unbelievable, yeah. So. When you talk to Premah, ask him about his idea to use a 3D printer model type of graph. It'll blow you away. It's awesome. Okay. Cool. Yeah.

All right, Adam, I'll let you go. Maybe next time we talk, we could talk a little bit about what it was like to have a conversation with your son about death. So many kids don't do that with their parents, and you got to do it with him. I think that's another fruit for area we could discuss that may relieve trauma for a lot of people. Because I don't know anybody that I've spoken to has been fortunate enough to do that. So I'll let you go. I love you, man. Thank you very, very much for spending time with me today.

I'll be in touch. And aloh. Yeah, I have to come back. Because I want to make sure, I want to work with you on getting that B involved. Yes, let's do it, man. All right. Thank you so much. I'm grateful for your, you know, for what you're doing and the access you're providing

so many great people and just can't say enough about how grateful. Yeah, me too. Right back at you. I hope you have a phenomenal day, my friend. Thank you. And aloha and Nick. We love you, buddy. Absolutely.

Thank you. Have a great weekend. You as well. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye.