TrueLife - Adam Miezio - When Psychedelics Go Public

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Adam Miezio“When Psychedelics Go Public”Imagine Alan Watts took three hits of LSD, cracked open his MacBook, and started writing copy for a biotech startup—except he didn’t forget the Upanishads, or the sacred. That’s the frequency we’re tuning into today.I’m George Monty, and this is the place where the symbolic goes strategic, where the mystical puts on a clean shirt and walks into the boardroom—but doesn’t bow.My guest is Adam Miezio—a rare mind at the crossroads of content and consciousness. He’s written for medicine carriers and molecule makers, shaped language around trauma, healing, psychedelics, and transformation. But don’t mistake him for a marketer. Adam is something else—a translator between the digital world and the ineffable.In this episode, we’re not asking how to “scale” or “optimize.”We’re asking what happens when the sacred enters the system.When ayahuasca meets analytics.When a keyword becomes a prayer.This isn’t a campaign. It’s a conversation between worlds.And you’re invited to listen in.adammiezio.contently.comadammiezio.contently.comhttps://www.bizdelics.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Friday. It looks like we made it. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. Hope the birds are singing.

Hope the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, Adam Mizo. When psychedelics go public. Imagine Alan Watts took three hits of LSD, cracked open his MacBook, and started writing copy for a biotech startup. Except he didn't forget the Upanishads or the sacred. That's the frequency we're tuning into today. I'm George Monty, and this is the place where the symbolic goes strategic, where the mystical puts on a clean shirt, walks into the boardroom, but doesn't bow. My guest is Adam Mizo, a rare mind at the crossroads of content and consciousness.

He's written for medicine carriers and molecule makers, shaped language around trauma, healing, psychedelics, and transformation. But don't mistake him for a marketer. Adam is something else, a translator between the digital world and the ineffable. In this episode, we're not asking how to scale or optimize. We're asking what happens when the sacred enters the system, when ayahuasca meets analytics, when a keyboard becomes a prayer. This isn't a campaign. It's a conversation between worlds and you, dear listeners, are invited to listen in. Adam, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? Oh, it's Friday. It can't be bad,

George. Thank you so, so much for having me. It's a delight to be here and speak with you. And Bravo on that intro, man, it doesn't get any better than that. I love all that. That's awesome. Well, I appreciate it, man. I love that you're here and I love all the work you're doing. And before we got started on this actual podcast, we were having a pretty killer discussion just about the world we're in. And maybe we can revisit some of that and give it back. to the folks a little bit. Absolutely. What do you think is a good jump-off point, man?

We were talking about language and neologisms, and what do you want to start at? Well, let's talk a little bit about language, because I think that there are some things that are sometimes as psychedelic, if not more psychedelic, then psychedelics themselves, which is language and or travel. And I've been a traveler most of my life. I've lived abroad. I've lived in Spain years ago. Now I live in Mexico. I'm pretty good with Spanish. And we were just talking about how interesting it is when you learn new words in a foreign

language that don't exist in your native tongue or native language. And that expands your consciousness. And it also can be frustrating because you're like, well, why the heck doesn't this word exist in my language? But as I was just saying to you before we hopped on, English is great because we robbed so many words from other languages. There's no rules with English, just steal a word and start using it in English and just make up new words.

Because the other thing I said was Shakespeare contributed something like, I don't know, 1,000 or 1,500 words, the English language, most of which we use today, for example, backstab in leapfrog. So I just love playing with words and coming up with new words for things like that farmiganda word that i mean that's that's a big win man that's a big win george because that's that's my background i studied i got a master's degree in uh mass media persuasion and propaganda so uh that's that's beautiful i love it man and they they really open up new linguistic pathways and you can't go anywhere unless you have a linguistic pathway and if you look at something like farmaganda people get

it like oh big pharma propaganda and it just hits because all of a sudden all this sort of you know words and language and media that's been coming at you, you know, you can, you can almost derail an entire project or an entire school or an entire industry with a meme or a new word because now everybody sees it. It's like, if you go to watch a magician and someone's like, hey, man, he's palm on the ball. All of a sudden, like that tradition's like, you know, so we can all do it. And we should all be doing more of it, I think. It's a beautiful thing. And we all have that power to do it. Yeah, absolutely. I totally. agree. You know, I was just saying to you before we hopped on, farmaganda is an example of a portmanteau

when you combine two words into one. And that word itself, portmanteau is stolen from French. So, you know, English just co-ops every language out there. And yeah, it's great for the brain, you know, especially as you grow older, learning a language among other things like dancing and playing instruments, really, really good for your brain health, much like psychedelics. So I think there's a lot in common with languages, psychedelics, and then the same thing with travel. Travel is very mind manifesting. And you learn all kinds of new things about your inner world and your capital as self when you travel. For example, some of these words that don't exist in your native language. And isn't it interesting, like the nomenclature around tripping? Like you go on a trip or you get high.

When you get high, what do you do? You see the world in a different view you're looking down upon. If you go on a trip, whether it's a trip to Spain or Italy or an inner journey, like you're getting to see some architecture that you've never seen before. And it's it's so similar. And it's not a coincidence that we use some of these same words for moving outside of the body and moving inside of the body. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I just can't sing the praises of traveling enough. And unfortunately, it's not something that a lot of Americans do, although that.

that's starting to change because more Americans have passports now than ever before. Still like only 40%. And the majority of those people are using them to, you know, go on cruises, go to the beach, maybe just jump across the border, which don't offer, those kinds of trips don't offer enough time to really dig in to the country on an authentic level, nor to dig into your capital S self. Because, you know, travel in a lot of ways becomes very spiritual. because it's an opportunity.

So learn about yourself and discover new layers of who you are through these new novel experiences. So you're very similar to psychedelics, I think. You know, it's so interesting. I know that you were hanging out with a mutual friend of ours, Christian Gray. Christian Gray, are an amazing human being. Thank you for everything. But as I was talking to him, I know he's been down in Oaxaca. And to see the change in him since he's been down there, it makes me ask the question.

And the same question I'll pose to you is, how long can you live in an environment before that environment starts to live in you? Oh, I got a good line for you. I haven't said it in a while. Let me think it's, I say you could be at home anywhere in the world as long as you're at home in your heart. I love that. And that's what travel can help you learn. is that the things that you need in life to really thrive. Because when we live in our native home country,

regardless of whatever country it is in the world, we live in a bubble, you know, because we haven't gone outside of it. You know, of course, some of us have, but prior to leaving the country, we don't know. We're insulated, we're isolated. And so once you start traveling, you really start seeing the world through a different lens

because you realize not everybody does it like us and that there's other approaches and other lifestyles and designs to to thriving on planet earth and you're like oh hey wait a minute i like this i like that a little bit of this a sprinkle of this and all of a sudden you're thinking well hey man it's hard going back to my home country because those things don't exist there um and i'm uh i prefer latin countries and latin cultures uh i've been to other countries and cultures around the world and they just don't resonate with me as much as as latin cultures do because i find latin cultures you know they resonate with me more because they're more laid back they're easy going they're not as prohibitive and strict and strict you know and then on the

other hand there's some cons to that because latin cultures tend to not be as organized they're not as on time um things aren't all chop chop chop so uh you know there's give you know there's give and take but that helps you grow because you know we're we're just so um conditioned to be on time and punctual in the west especially the united states that when you live in a latin country all that goes out the window and you're like whoa hey i got to slow down here then it actually helps you live life because you can go inward and relax and and calm down and just kind of let life flow i love that on your personal website, and I know that Christian has sent me some pictures too,

some of the artwork that's just painted on buildings or there's these sick images. You know, you can even look at a, I think it was Diego Garcia on the island. There's a famous mural painter, Diego Rivera, who painted these incredible murals. And I'm like, but it's the artwork. Like when you're in Mexico,

and I spend some time down there too, and I'm sure that maybe you can tell me some stories about it, but like artwork that just happens to be on the wall or the painting of the Dia de Muerrethos or just like there's so much incredible artwork that speaks to you on a level that's visceral down there. Maybe there's some there's some big things about community and art down where you are, right? Oh, God. I can talk about this a ton. Yeah. Obviously, that's one of the reasons many people love Mexico, including myself.

The art here is just so rich, so a bunch of. been so vibrant. And it's unfortunate because you go back to the United States, you're like, oh, man, there's nothing, there's, there's not much like it in the States. You know, that's an interesting topic nowadays going on, you know, in podcasts like this and online conversations that, you know, as the West appears to be dying, you know, the art in the West is just, it's just flatlined. There's no vibrancy, no richness, nothing brilliant that's being produced or created. I mean, sure there is, but it's usually small scale and isolated pockets. It's not, you know, a collective essence that, oh, my God, we're living through this brilliant

time. You know, it's definitely, you know, if there's a psychedelic renaissance, I'm not sure how much of an artistic renaissance we're living through, you know? So you come to Mexico and then you see that contrast. I mean, everywhere from the biggest cities to the smallest towns, there's these amazing, just beautiful murals painted everywhere. where. You know, sometimes I like to use the word phantasmagoria. You know, these very, just dreamlike, psychedelic, mind manifesting, you know, works of street art and street murals. And I've loved street art and street murals for many, many years. And of all the countries that I've gone to, I think Mexico is one of the best countries for that. I mean, there's just cities where the walls are

covered in them. And the thing I like about it most is very frequently they touch on spiritual indigenous themes. They often incorporate spiritual myths, indigenous traditions and customs, and also indigenous gods and deities. And I just love all that stuff. I love it. And a little word for the wise out there. Anybody wants to get a black and gray tattoo? You should find someone from Mexico. The black and gray tattoos, woo, it's hard to be to Mexican artist when it comes to black and gray tattoos out there. But it's usually something spiritual. I think it reminds us in the West when we see that art of something that we have moved away from. And you spoke about the word conditioning earlier. And it seems like in schools, especially whether it's primary or higher education, like we have

turned towards lecture instead of gesture. And it just, it defiles things that are sacred. It's like, okay, we don't need this. We just need this. Have you noticed that or like maybe in your own experience? Have you noticed sort of the absence of the sacred in education? Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't say that the United States is a spiritual country. And so you're not going to find that any of that in school. I mean, it's just devoid of any kind of spirituality. And as much as I love school and academia and learning, you know, it's hugely, hugely important. Our academic and educational system is suffering right now. It's like many things in the Western world. Now, it's dying and it needs to change. We need to reinvent it.

And, you know, somebody that I've been learning a little bit about more lately is Rudolf Steiner. And like I believe he, he, uh, was responsible for kind of founding the, the Waldorf school. Yeah. You know, there might be some spirituality in wallower schools. I don't know much about them. I've never gone to one. Um, I didn't have spirituality in school. I had religion because I went to an all boys Catholic high school.

So, um, but yeah, the Waldorf schools seem to be an interesting, interesting model because it involves a lot of nature. And that's, that's beautiful too. I mean, where do we learn about nature anymore? Yeah, it's true. My grandpa used to say, if you want a new idea, read a really old book. Because that's where it is. There's the things that we move away from seem to come back later in life.

And it's a real treat for people that have been devoid of spiritual nature for a long time. And I think that this kind of speaks to the psychedelic movement in a lot of ways. So many people are rekindling a relationship with the idea that there's something bigger than themselves. And it's rushing in and filling this void, which is beautiful. but at the same time maybe a little bit dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's part. That's a symptom of this.

There's a lot of words to use, whether it's a great revelation, a great initiation, you know, this burning to ashes before we rise out of it, like a phoenix, this liminal space that we're living through. You know, people have finally turned, inward and are finding that there's nothing there and they need something. And so that's definitely spurring this interest and psychedelic revival. And it's hugely important. But there's no, what would I say precedent? Maybe, no, maybe that's not the right word. There's not a framework in the West,

especially the United States for going down these spiritual paths. You know, we had it a little bit in the 60s, and then it took a hard fall with tune in, turn on and drop out. And that kind of maybe cut us out at the knees a little bit. But, you know, like for example, here in Mexico, with such rich indigenous traditions around spirituality, mythology, and their cosmologies, from the Olmecs to the Mayans, the Aztecs, you know, that's all just kind of woven into the social and cultural fabric here. really don't have that in the United States. Of course, you know, we have indigenous tribes and Native Americans around in the United States, but we've not taken that wisdom and integrated it

well into our culture at all. Yeah. I think that's by design. You know, when we look at the world of psychedelics, at least from what I have read, and it's just my opinion, like there's a, like that part is supposed to be cut out. Like, hey, you guys can do this stuff. but leave the system alone. Like we don't want words like farm again. We don't want people having spiritual awakenings. We, we, and in my eyes, what I, one of the problems I see right now happening in psychedelics seems to be this idea that when you commodify it, you automatically take out the sacred. You know what I mean?

Like we're taking something that is a birthright. We're taking something that is available to everyone to explore if they have the courage to do it and trying to sell it back to them on some level. And I'm torn. Like I get the idea. Like how do you make money at this? Well, maybe you don't. Maybe you can make money around it.

But when you go in and you, when you try to commodify psychedelics through like a, in my opinion, through like a 12 month course or like a vital program or like these other programs out there, in my opinion, what you're doing is like you're drawing Mohammed. You know, it's a bad idea because you're taking this thing that is sacred that belongs to everybody.

You're like, let me just draw this picture of Muhammad. Don't you want to see him? Like you're going to really steal the fire and the suffering that is necessary for someone to fully become who they are. It bothers me on some level. I don't know. It might be in too righteous. No, no, no, no.

I mean, it's a complex, uh, slippery subject. You know, I, our, our economic system and financial system is, is well screwed right now. You know, not only in the United States, you know, it's most of the Western world. The same things are happening in Canada. of Germany, England, Australia. So the way I've wrestled with that in my mind is, you know, I try not to be judgmental. You know, everybody has a right to make money. Yes. And, you know, I just try not to judge. I have a good friend that works in a military industrial complex. And he does quite well, you know, and hey, you know, I can't control that. So why judge it?

So I've kind of arrived at this idea that maybe psychedelics have, you know, well, okay, let me back at let me say this. You know, I tend to think that there's a possibility that psychedelics themselves have some amount of consciousness. So what if they have injected themselves into our awareness and this period, this time again for a reason? And maybe it's that cosmic trance. trickster archetype where it's like, okay, I'm going to be a Trojan horse.

You know, I'm going to come into this capitalist system and I'm going to be abused and exploited in what appears to be the wrong way. But people don't realize that I'm a Trojan horse and that I'm going to help burn this system down in ashes. But then at the same time, we're going to rise like a Phoenix afterwards. So that's, I'm trying to hold that liminal space because I think that's a key for this wild time we're living through. We're living through this incredible time. I think most people just don't realize. This isn't just an American time. This isn't just a time for the Western world. This is a time for the globe that maybe, I mean, there's never ever been a time like it. And I think similar periods have probably passed, but maybe not for thousands of years. So I think

one of the best ways to get through this time, you know, mentally, spiritually is to hold that liminal space. Don't be yes or no. Be yes and no. You know, be the doubt, be the way between yin and yang. Don't believe and don't disbelieve, but just stay in the middle and try and hold that space of uncertainty and unknowing and just remain curious. So that's the way I try and wrestle with this problem of, you know, the, the, the, the

capitalization of psychedelics because one of my favorite phrases is uh and it's pretty lowbrow but i love it. Shick rose flowers. Yeah. So this could be it man. And you know, that's the old Taoist parable about the farmer. You know, that that story's been around for millennia. And I believe it was, it was one of the favorite kind of parables of Alan Watts.

And it's a favorite parable of mine too. So, you know, don't jump to conclusions when you see a gigantic pilot. of shit, you know, realize that maybe some days, weeks, months, years down the road, man, you know what grows out of shit is mushrooms. So, hey, you know, just hold on the judgment and just, you know, go with the flow and hold that, you know, hold that space in between yes and no, black or white. You know, and I think that that's a great lesson for our time right now. Man, I love that.

It's so well said. And I appreciate that lens to look through it. And it reminds me like, I love to read and I find myself sometimes not reading whole books, especially like if you pick up like the Upanishads or like a Bible or something like that, you can find these great quotes that speak to you. And the one that comes to mind is, forgive me my Christian friends out there. I forgot the exact. I can't quote it exactly and I can't tell you who it comes to.

But it's something along the lines of, I was born with a thorn in my side, a messenger from Satan to torment me. thrice I asked the Lord to take it away and in his infinite wisdom I heard my grace is sufficient for you for in weakness my power is made perfect and I think it speaks to that idea of like yeah it's injured right now but don't worry just have some grace like that's it needs to be weak so that we can see that phoenix rise from the ashes and like when I when I think about it like that it's like yeah okay you know you have to hold that liminal space and I love the idea of sitting between yes and now the idea of a true paradox and maybe that's where we're evolving into is like

there isn't the truth is subjective like this thing called truth we made up it's not real it's it's your truth versus my truth and if we can just hold both of them maybe we can come to a conclusion we're like oh now we're back to the idea of language oh i didn't know that word and that truth makes sense to me so maybe we're we're in the midst of a real linguistic and and spiritual revolution here let me see oh i uh i uh i i totally agree that i'd like let's go ahead and just open up pandora's box right now yeah so i think you know i learned in recent years more about kind of the the phoenix rising from the ashes myth parable and that's so so important because the old world's dying if not already dead but the new world

hasn't been born you know so we've kind of like pushed off from the dock and we're in the sea of the unknown you know we're you know like explorers of the unknown now And it can be really scary because this is happening on a collective level. And then for most people, it's happening individually. Everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people right now are going to get some very serious problems. And so to have these spiritual myths, legends, parables can be so supportive right now and help us get through these crazy times because it's about to get a lot crazier. And one of the things I've been focusing on lately that is upstream of psychedelics, and I think a lot of people in this space don't realize it. And then the general public at large doesn't realize it either is this concept I've just been learning about, which is monistic idealism.

And basically my rudimentary understanding of it for now is that it's basically the philosophical, academic term for when everybody discusses or mentions that we're living in a simulation. I think that's what they're referring to is monistic idealism. And from what I can tell, some of the biggest supporters, proponents of this idea are Bernardo Castro, Donald Hoffman, and Thomas Campbell. And I've really gotten turned on to Thomas Campbell lately. He authored a book. He's a former physicist.

maybe a nuclear physicist. He authored a book called My Big Tull. And Towe is an acronym for theory of everything. So the book is my big theory of everything. And I've watched a lot of podcasts about him. And it is absolutely fascinating. When I first heard people saying, oh, we're living in a simulation.

You know, it came a lot from tech bros, people like Elon Musk. And I thought, man, that sucks. Like, I got ripped off. I got to go through this and it's all fake. Like, it's a simulation. Like, man, life is really a bummer. But then when I got into Thomas Campbell, I realized, man, this is exactly what I've kind of thought has been going on with reality and consciousness, but I've never been able to put into words.

So basically, it's the idea that consciousness, the primacy of consciousness, consciousness is the fundamental building block of the universe. And that, you know, kind of going back to, you know, we're all the universe in a drop idea, that consciousness and able to, expand, evolve, grow, you know, kind of like shaved off pieces of itself. And that's what we are. We're just little, you know, shavings or stardust from, you know, whatever you want to call it. You know, God, source energy, you know, whatever. And that through this experience, we're helping improve the growth, development, expansion of consciousness. Because consciousness, it's what Thomas Campbell does, he looks at it.

through a systems approach. And what consciousness wants to do is at all times reduce entropy. What is entropy? Entropy is chaos and disorder. So what it's trying to do is increase collaboration, trust, cooperation, to thrive. And what's the key ingredient that Thomas Campbell says that's necessary for all this to happen? one word love which is really really fascinating very very interesting and that's what the universe wants from us is wants us to love because it reduces entropy that's beautiful it makes so much

sense to to see it from that angle where you know it would also explain the altered states of awareness when you feel like you're coming into contact with something greater than you like Maybe you are coming into. And, you know, so many people, myself included with the relationship with psychedelics, you really begin to understand that you are part of something bigger than yourself. Like, you can have a conversation with a tree. You know, you can have a conversation with the plants, or you could just sit quietly and monitor the ecosystem that's happening around you.

And it seems that secrets are revealed to you in a way that no lecture ever could. You know, maybe that's what the, there's that great story about the Buddha, having all these people come to me and just holds up a flower. That's the whole lecture. He just holds up the flower. And some people are like, what? And some people are like, oh, it's amazing. You know, but yeah, I'm so thankful to get to be here now and see this thing that's

happening in front of us. Oh, it's, I'm absolutely convinced the next five, ten years and beyond it. It's just going to be absolutely nuts because I've seen some people online already saying that, you know, we're moving out of rational materialism. It's just that the mainstream and public at large just doesn't know it yet. And this is this is the kind of just collective shift, seismic shift around reality that doesn't happen every couple hundred years or so. This is something that happens every few thousand years or something like, I mean, it's gigantic because once you get into this idea of, you know, we're living in a simulation, everything is consciousness, monistic idealism. then all of these ideas like DMT entities, mystical experiences, NDE's, out-of-body experiences, noetic science,

these things all become very quote unquote real, at least very possible. I mean, I think this is a super important conversation in the psychedelic field right now that's not being held, is that this philosophical shift is upstream of psychedelics, but downstream people aren't talking about it very much. They do a little bit online, but not enough because, you know, one of the greatest conundrums of this time that I find is that we're actually using the scientific method to disprove itself. Like you tell me how you you square that circle, but we're doing it. Like one of my favorite examples is Dean Radin. Well, also Rupert Sheldrake.

I mean, these guys are all hardcore scientists and are trying to prove that consciousness is the fundamental essence of the universe. but how do you prove a subjective experience? And that's why we're having this explosion of interest in these, you know, mystical experiences, you know, beyond not just in psychedelics, but with, you know, telepathy, the telepathy tapes. And I've learned a little bit recently about the Monroe Institute. And, man, the psychedelic experiences that a person can have, you know, going to the Monroe Institute. I mean, that's on my bucket list. I got to do that next. And it doesn't even involve any, you know, plant medicine or psychedelics or anything like that. It's all, you know, it is.

It's all sound frequency and vibration. It's music. And it allows you to access different realms of consciousness. So we're going to have to start understanding, embracing, and welcoming discussions around these things in the West because it's just, it hasn't existed in a reality. Whereas you come down here to Mexico? I'm like, oh yeah, you didn't know all that stuff was real. thousands of years, you know. And that's why I love Mexico, because there's this deep, deep mystical side to it and esoteric, arcane side.

You know, they believe in forest spirits here. You know, like they're basically gnomes. They're versions of Mexican gnomes called here, Ramat and Oaxaca. They're called Chenekes. They're also known in some places as Dwendays. And then down in the Yucatan, among the Maya, they're known as Aleushes. And they really believe in these things that if you can. go out in the woods, you might see these guys. And, you know, these, these aren't new myths. You know,

they go all the way back to, you know, France with the little gnomes and wear the red hats and, you know, these types of, you know, myths and legends in Ireland and England. So, you know, it's, I couldn't ask for a better time to be alive because stuff is getting really weird, really fast. You know, it's the Chinese parable. May you live in interesting times. I love it. Yeah. And, you know, when I, when I read about the different. ailments in the different parts of the world. Like in South America, you have Susto versus like the DSM, you know, and it's so interesting to think that, yeah, why couldn't you be sort of taken over by a spirit?

And like, again, no one ever defines their terms when they begin a conversation. If I say spirit to a scientist, they're like, get out of here, man. I can't clean. You can't test that in a clinical trial. But it just seems like we have denied so much of the obvious for so long that it's no wonder while we're in such a mess, man. It's crazy to think about. Yeah, and I think one of my favorite pieces of wisdom or legends from Native Americans is,

it goes by a few different names, Wendigo or Wetiko. It was popular among various tribes, maybe the Urquois or Gonquin. It was their concept of a demon that represented greed. and that when they weren't when Native Americans weren't collaborating, trusting, cooperating, working based on love, Wendigo would enter and they would consume too much. People would get too greedy. And then as soon as, you know, colonizers came and Europeans came, they're like, you guys are all possessed by Wendigo.

You guys are trying to eat the earth. This is not the way it works. And, you know, it looks like Native Americans were right about that now because this absence of spirituality and total absolute belief in rational materialism that he who dies with the most toys wins seems now that like, dude, it's gotten us into a really, really bad spot, a bad, bad spot. So I think all of these things are absolutely interrelated and connected. Yeah. First of it's fascinating. I didn't know about the spirit of when to go. I know there's a great book called When Black Elks speaks and he talks about the time where some of the settlers and like the white guys came and they were like, look, I want to buy your land. And he's like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can't buy the land. The land belongs to everybody. But sure enough, we were able to come up with some waivers and some contracts and this world of abstraction that we're drowning in. It's just, it's so crazy to think. think about how far we've come from living in what really matters. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's an interesting point now because there's a big discussion going on now

across the United States about property taxes. People are going to start losing their homes, if not already, because of property taxes. Yeah. A lot of people say property taxes should be abolished, which I would agree with. However, that's also a revolutionary move because that's one of the fundamental beliefs in America is the right to own property. And yet if someone's an anarchist, you're like, no, you can't do that. But then the people who are anti-anarchism, because that term is widely misunderstood.

People think it's just like utter chaos, which really it isn't. Anarchism is kind of voluntarism. It's choosing who you get to work with to increase the love and decrease the entropy. So, you know, to think that you go back just two or three hundred years, you know, that's basically what the Native Americans were doing. They were living like anarchists. You couldn't own property. That was nuts. And now just two, three hundred years later, you're like, no, everybody has to own property. Otherwise, it'll be anarchy. Well, I mean, where are we at now? What does the world look like? You know, I don't know. They're doing it to the air now. Now you've got to buy carbon

credits. Like, no. Some, you're necessarily owning water. Like, I mean, this is peak madness. Peak, Peak madness. Yeah. I'll never forget. I'll never forget when I was, when I was a little boy, I lived in San Diego, and we would drive up to like Palmar Mountain,

which is like a little local mountain that had snow, but that's also where the aquifer was. And they had like these stations that you could go to. And as I grew up, like we're probably on 11 or 12. I think probably when Nestle started saying, like we're just going to take the water and we'll sell it back to you. They started putting in like these stations.

And I remember that, dad, what's that station goes? That's where they come and suck the water out? And I'm like, who sucks the water out? You know, and you start realizing like,

Oh, this giant corporation comes in. They steal all the free water. They put it in a plastic bottom and they sell it back to you. And you start realizing the relationship between the corporation and the state and they're buying the campaign donations. And they suck this free resource out of it. And like the whole society without, it just starts draining the whole society out of it. It's so bananas to me to think like how long can this go on? And maybe what we're talking about right now is sort of that trickster archetype or maybe

it's we are succumbing to the the mistakes that we've made in the past but like that's why everything is withering and dying it's just we've been sucking out the life out of it for so long on so many levels man yeah i i was thinking about something recently about the time that we're living in which comes from hard science this idea of dynamic homeostasis you know everyone's body lives in a state of dynamic homeostasis what does that mean that means that we have a maximum and minimum level to what our body is physiologically capable of. So if you exceed that maximum or minimum, something terrible is going to go wrong. But you have space to flex and adapt within those minimums and maximums.

And not long ago, I saw an interesting video online from a Shaolin monk. And he was talking about this crazy time that we live in. And, you know, he said something very comforting and reassuring. And, you know, I've heard this before, but it was just so comforting to hear it again. He said, the world can never be out of balance. So, you know, I think we're reaching one of those limits. Whether it's the maximum or minimum, I don't know, because it depends on, you know, what lens you're looking at it through.

But I think we're reaching one of those limits right now. And eventually we're going to, you know, swing back towards bad. balance. But it's just these are crazy chaotic, scary times. But that's one of the things that grounds me and makes me feel better is that the world can never be out of balance and that this is happening for reason because change needs to happen. Although change, nobody likes it. Human beings are seemingly fundamentally designed to hate change. So that's what makes this very difficult and scary. So if you can trust in the process, believe in the universe that the world can never be out of balance, we'll get out of this. We'll get through this. We all have to have faith in the

process, trust and be resilience. Resilience, I think, is the most underrated human trait. And we can all use that a ton right now. I love that, man. Thanks for sharing that. That makes me feel that he's to hear, like, just to hear those words, like, oh, yeah, there's something way bigger than it's going on. And it's so easy to get caught up, though, especially in your life. Like when you look at the traumas we all have, like my wife's, we're going, our family is going through cancer right now. And it is this sort of like, I think Marseillead says the terror before the sacred.

Like you really fall into this, oh my God, we're going to die. You know, and like, yeah, you figured it out. Congratulations. You're like, no, we're going to die. And they're like, yeah, you figured it out. But what was born out of that is the things that matter. Like when you lose your house, when you lose your career, when you lose all these things, all of a sudden there's a space made for something else to grow. But it's really hard and you need time.

Like you might need a few years. So to anybody out there that's finding themselves on one of these tragedies, congratulations. I know. Trust me, I know. Adam knows. Like so many of us know. But maybe this tragedy, maybe this horrific thing in your life, maybe this loss. And I hate to say that.

But like, maybe losing someone you love the most, man. what do you learn from it? You're still here? All of a sudden, you've found this new community. All of a sudden, you've started realizing these things about yourself that you've been denying. Like, maybe that's where it is, man. Maybe it's not about how much you take, but what you're willing to let go of, what you're willing to leave behind.

And it's a tough one. It's a real tough one to wrestle with, man. The pain and suffering is a blessing. And I think there's a lot of room in the psychedelic space to have these spiritual conversations, you know, that don't get too arcane, too esoteric, too woo-wooey, to help people. Because there's two important points about this is, one, I always talk about spiritual alchemy. You know, and that's basically the phoenix rising from the ashes. You turn a loss into a wind.

And that's one of the biggest reasons I love Mexico is because of Day of the Dead. You know, in the West, especially the United States, it's taboo. to talk about death and dying. Yet it's the most natural thing in the world. It's as natural as being born. Everybody's born. Everybody's going to die. But we don't talk about that in the United States.

Because that, I think rational materialism doesn't allow for that. Because that's it. It's the light switch theory. I know people that believe in the light switch theory. You know, life on, life off. That's it. You know, when you die, it's light off. You know, and I think that's common in the United States.

But here in Mexico, Day of the Dead, they have practiced spiritual alchemy and turned the worst into the best. You go to a day of the dead celebration here. You go to the cemetery. The cemetery is filled with hundreds, if not thousands of people and they're partying. They go to the grave sites of all their dead family members and ancestors, and they give them offrendas or offerings. And those can range from that dead relatives' favorite. candy, food, bread, pastry, beer, alcohol, mescal, cigarettes. They put candles.

They're playing music. I mean, this is incredible. They have turned a weakness into an absolute strength. And I think we used to have that a little bit in the United States, maybe about 180 years ago. I've seen pictures great, black and white pictures online of an old tradition that Americans used to have. We used to go to the cemetery on Sundays and have picnics. you could see people like in the Victorian era dressed up in these beautiful, you know, suits and dresses and hats.

And they're all having picnics at the cemetery. And we need to bring that back because we have a bad, bad relationship with death and dying. And then the other point to go back to the beauty of pain and suffering and the opportunity it can offer is an idea that I learned studying Nietzsche. Nietzsche was a son of a gun most of his career. But later on in his life, he turned it around. He went from being a nihilist and cynical and, oh, God, everything's horrible to, you know, suddenly he was like, man, life is incredible. This is beautiful because he came up with the idea of post-traumatic growth.

And I don't almost never hear that disgust in the psychedelic space. And I love the idea of post-traumatic growth. It's the idea of shit grows flowers, you know, and we can all grow and expand and evolve in ways that are unimaginable if we deal with the suffering and the pain in a healthy way. But we just don't know how to do that. And, you know, one of the last points about all this is, I think was, who was it, Pima Chodran? I think she said pain is inevitable. suffering is optional because pain is what happens externally you can't stop the world from causing you pain suffering is what you think about it and your mental approach and perspective to that painful

experience so post-traumatic growth that that's just a huge theme for me because I've seen in my own life my mom passed away from cancer and I thought that was going to be then of the world and it wasn't and i found ways to help my family turn that um you know led into gold and practice a little bit of spiritual alchemy one quick little example was that my mom hated saying i'm going to die and so i turned it into a euphemism because one of the things she regretted was never being able to travel to paris and see paris so instead of saying i'm going to die or you're going to die I turn it into, well, when you go to Paris, and she just loved that. And so instead of saying, I'm going to die, she would always say, I'm going to Paris.

Thank you. That is awesome. I love that. You know, in the psychedelic community, especially in the Western world, there's so much work around, you know, post-traumatic stress syndrome. What if we just change the word is post-traumatic growth? Now you sort of derail or change the direction of the end. industry. Like, hey, congratulations. Like, now you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're ready to start helping other people. Like,

maybe that is the initiation. Maybe the post-traumatic stress, which we've given it this clinical word and this diagnosis and a label for people to, to be burdened with. Like, if you just change it to post-traumatic growth, all of a sudden, you can fundamentally change the direction of the institutions, man. That's ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have winner, winner, chicken dinner. Yeah, absolutely. George, a thousand percent. Yeah, because one of the things that that bothers me now a little bit is the whole, you know, healing trauma boxing of psychedelics. You know, everybody should have the opportunity to heal. We need healing desperately. It's all fun. I shouldn't say fun. It's all

fantastic. But I'm about the fun. You know, what do we do after we get healed? After we get back to baseline, what's the next step? Because there's other ways to use psychedelics after we heal from our traumas. And God knows we need to heal. I wrote a piece a few months ago on Substack about trauma in the United States. And from the research that I did, supposedly there's like 200 million people with trauma in the United States. There's what, 330, 340 million people? If 200 million people have trauma, I mean, that's messed up. Okay, let's fix that problem. And at the same time, because we're capable of doing two things at the same time. Let's talk about what happens when we heal from the trauma get back to baseline, you know, because I'm interested in these, you know, mystical, esoteric,

you know, big ideas. What is consciousness? What is going on here? And we need to be able to hold those conversations at the same time with the trauma and the healing. Because personally, I don't think I've ever suffered from little T trauma. I've maybe suffered from big T trauma, you know, those one-off events that really rattle you, maybe like a car accident or something like that. But, you know, I've done psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and, you know, I didn't have anything come up from the abyss or from the depths that I didn't know about. So, you know, I have a different relation to psychedelics than what's going on now for trauma. You know, I want to, I want everyone to have that opportunity. But like you said, with PTSD and the evolution of language,

so important because that's something that George Carlin talked about. There was a great George Carlin bit about language. And I think it included the evolution of the phrase PTSD because it's gone through three or four stages. Because it used to be in World War I shell shock. And then it became combat fatigue. And if you watch the George Carlin bit about this, it's brilliant and hilarious. Because combat fatigue, it softens it.

Shell, shock. Like you can really imagine artillery shells and then the shock. And then you evolve that into combat fatigue. And he's like, oh, yeah, you're just like, you're a little bit tired. You know, you're a little bit worn out from being in the battlefield. That's so bad. And then there's another one maybe in between combat fatigue and PTSD. And then I think after Vietnam or whatever, it became PTSD.

And it softens it, which is horrible. You know, because this trauma is one of the worst things in the world you can deal with. And the government and the military has gone on a continual process of trying to soften and smooth the impact of that word. So, man, yeah, something like post-traumatic growth and adding that to the language and vocabulary of our culture would be huge. Yeah, I think it was Gulf War Syndrome, the same thing. They turned it into like a syndrome. It's the whole idea of using. language to make people feel that they're weak and they're not able of getting it for themselves,

you know? And it's, I see it today in this whole medical container. Is it, in your opinion, is it, is it a conscious decision by maybe people in positions of authority to make money? Like that's what it comes back to me. It's like everything's so clinical. Like you need a diagnosis. And then that evolves into a medical system that works on symptoms instead of cures. Like, is it just the inertia of the system or is it maybe on some level something that's been being guided or is that too big of a question well going back to what we're talking about earlier george i would say a i don't know and two yes and like that that's another good way to get through this time is don't be either or don't be yes no be yes and so i think it is kind of the inertia of the system on one hand

because it's just the way capitalism works capitalism is always seeking a new market to exploit. And now we're down to, you know, potentially exploiting trauma. And at the same time, you know, psychedelics, you know, psychedelics are really, really weird, very wild and very unpredictable. And if psychedelics are conscious, it goes back to the idea that I mentioned earlier. Maybe psychedelics are acting like a Trojan horse right now. They're saying like, you know, that tricks to archetype,

saying, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, invite me into your house. Invite me into the system. Yes, please exploit me. Please put me in here. You know, it's like, like, kind of like inviting a vampire into your house. Yes, please, please. And so maybe in the end, it's a Trojan horse, you know. So I don't totally see it as a bad thing.

Yeah, I definitely can see how people look at it through a certain lens and think it's horrible. And I agree. I can't disagree by looking through that lens, but I think there's other lenses. to look at it through that, you know, could, you know, instill some hope and make us a little bit less judgmental of what's happening. Adam, what would Ruchkopf do? Maybe you can help my listeners understand first off who he is and then maybe take some, like, what would Ruchkopf do? I don't know. I've been watching some of his stuff lately. He does the Team Human podcast, which I think is really cool.

I'm all about Team Human, whether that's his ideas or, you know, just kind of a, a literal sense. You know, I think you mentioned the word community earlier. We definitely need more community. And psychedelics is good at building community. And I would even say maybe in tandem with the psychedelic revival, this idea of community has been gaining momentum and steam for some years now. At least five, you know, if not, you know, for the past decade.

because people for a while have been feeling the loss of it in the west, especially in the United States. I mean, I'm Gen X. I was born in 1975, and when I was young, there was still a lot of community in the United States. You know, people knew their neighbors. There were still mom and pop independent businesses before the rise of Walmart. And now that's all pretty much dead and gone, but people realize we need it back. And I think that's a big part of the solution to the new world waiting to be born is finding ways to reestablish and rebirth community. That's something I love about Mexico also. The community in Mexico is amazing. Even though like most countries, fewer and fewer people in Mexico are going to church and are Catholic, the centuries of Catholic influence in Mexico, for all the bad things that it's done,

there have been some good things, which is community. That's one of those crazy pros and cons of religion for all the bad that it does, the good that it does involves building community. And here, where I live in Oaxaca, I live in this little neighborhood without a streetlight, without an ATM. There's not a single corporate chain of anything anywhere. There's no McDonald's, no Starbucks, no nothing. And I know every business owner here because they, they,

work at their business. You know, I know the butcher. I know the guy who runs the coffee shop. I know all the owners of the restaurants. And you just don't get that feeling in the United States. And that's a beautiful feeling. You know, it's, I think they're called soft ties. And that's what's dyed in the United States are soft ties. Are these social connections that we have with the baker, the restaurateur, your barber, you know, whoever it is. You know, you don't know them on a deep level, but you know them from doing business with them. And that's one of the big keys and secrets to building community are soft ties. And those still thrive in a lot of Latin American countries because of the Catholic Church, where as in the United States, that's all dead and gone. Who knows their checkout

person at Walmart? In Amazon, you don't even see a checkout person. It's just that all those soft ties in the United States have been vaporized from the most part except in rural areas. It's so well said. I think it speaks to the heart of what we've been missing. I'm going to pivot to some comments over here. I got some people stacking up for you, Adam. So get ready to everybody on the comments. I apologize for the delay. But I'm talking to Adam over here.

I want to hog all of this time. So here we go. First one up is my good friend, Robert, Sean Davis. Robert, thank you so much for being here, for always chiming in being an awesome conversation. Let's see what he has to say. He says, study Jamantria and etymology against the history and evolution of language. And one can find ample evidence of an underlying intelligence.

beyond just the chaos of human intervention. It can serve as part of a higher awakenings. I've also viewed English as a gift, almost a planned oversimplification, reflecting the age we are in to help make it easier to pass through the gate. What are your thoughts on that, Adam? Thank you, Robert.

Yeah, thanks, Robert. That's beautiful. Yeah, to pass through this time. And maybe that's a great thought. How do we use language to pass through this gate of great transnational? transformation. And maybe it goes back to what you're discussing earlier, George, with memes. You know, maybe that's a bigger part of the new world that's waiting to be born our memes because that's just a form of language. And, you know, that's like I said, that's one of Douglas

Rushkoff's books, Media Virus, which is basically like a meme. And, you know, maybe in a way, we all need to become our own meme now. But I don't mean like a macro on the internet. We have embody becoming memes ourselves. To invent that new world, we have to start embodying, revering, and adoring the new characteristics, skills, beliefs, values, attitudes of the new world now. Because that's an interesting idea here because one of the things that I've learned in recent years about the fall of communism is that there were parallel societies built underneath the regime of communism that eventually toppled communism.

I can't remember the name. One of the groups that was responsible for this was a very famous band, I think, in Czechoslovakia, when it still existed. And they created a parallel society that grew over years. And because people just basically stopped participating in communism. They were just like, no, we're going over here to this side. And then eventually it was that movement that toppled communism. So, you know, as dark as this time is, as much as we think we don't have control over these massive dark forces, if we just throw that little pebble into the pond and start making those little ripples and attract more and more people to that little ripple, it will just eventually topple everything that appears to be dominating us right now.

And language is the key to all that. Yeah, I really see an evolution in language, especially with the advent of the large language. models and imagery. On some level, and you cannot deny the relationship between psychedelics and language. I have found so many people that... In age me, anyone? Yeah, without a doubt. I think on some level, even the geometric images you see in psychedelic, sometimes open-eyed or closed-eye, I feel like that's a language on some level. And if we can just on some level agree that there's an intelligence on this planet that's been around longer than all of us. Maybe it is, in fact, beginning to teach us how to have meaningful

dialogue. Maybe the language we have now is like, okay, you guys have learned nouns. Now I'm going to give you an adjective. Put the picture with the word and you're going to start making complete sentences or at least more meaningful sentences. And we see it with the memes. Like there's memes that take down entire industries. And this is a fascinating idea. I never thought of this before. I think some of the first memes were those ancient cave paintings. We're constantly finding more. and more ancient cave paintings. I mean, our history is so unknown, so not properly investigated, undiscovered, and stuff is just getting older and older and older. I think right now, what is it, one of the caves in Spain or southern France that has the oldest cave paintings

in the world? And I think those guys were probably doing something. You know, they ate a little something, something, trying something, something. And then, hey, man, let's go in the cave and make some memes. You know, so it's it's funny. It's coming full circle and it's like we're going back to that. You know, maybe we need to go into some caves and put some pain on our hands and put some hamprints on the walls. I heard they're going to have that at psychedelic science this year. Dude, it sounds like some kids of that. But yeah, let me go dunk my hands in some paint buckets and make some memes on some cave walls somewhere.

That would be fun, man. That would be amazing. Oh, totally do it. Yeah. Make more art because that's something else that we desperately need. We need everybody, I think that's one of the things to help birth the new world. We have to create. Everybody, I say, has a cosmic job.

You know, everybody has their capitalist job to survive, but we're really put here by consciousness to have a cosmic job. We all have some kind of unique mission. And I think the more we discover what that is, we create, you know, whatever that is. You know, it can be anything. And the more each one of us finds a way to create what we're really meant to do, that will help us move to that new world that awaits us. It's so beautiful. Like, this is near and dear to my heart.

Like, I'm working on this project called the Artistic or the psychedelic science art challenge. And I put out a job posting on LinkedIn for, send me your art. Like, I'm working on this project. I can't give you any money. I can't give you any thing. I can't give you anything. But what I can do is I believe put your project in front of people that will really be inspired by it. And I was blown away.

I got like 275 applicants that came in. And all of a sudden this artwork, like this beautiful artwork that people were just pouring their passion into. It was like, oh my God, look at this, you know. And I found another group on X that I'm a group member of. And if people really want to see what the future of artwork looks like, like if you look at some of these art. artists that are using stuff like Unreal Engine. Like, I believe that AI and the artwork that's coming out right now is almost like another Renaissance.

Like, there is such incredible depth. There's imagery that's, that's just put out there, that's just mind-blowing. Like, you'll stare at it like you're in a museum. And the most beautiful thing is everyone can create these kind of things. Like, I see people that have just started and I see people that have been doing it for a long time. But it's that absence of artwork that has been gone for so long. And all these new artists are just coming.

up. They're selling their work for like, you know, they put it on the blockchain and they're making a living from it. Some guy, I talked to a gentleman in Nuwan Shilpa, whoever wants to check out, brilliant artists out of Sri Lanka. He's just making these incredible pieces. He did like a whole series on machine elves, put them on the blockchain and people are buying them. They are creating these ecosystems that you spoke about, like finding a way. Are they NFTs like machine elves NFTs? Yeah. Well, yeah, he puts them on like, I think they're on the Salana blockchain. But they also put up just for people to view, you know, and just looking at them is incredibly inspiring to look at it and be like, whoa, look at this, you know, and some of the artwork is so interdimensional and it speaks to you in a way

that language can't, like all great artwork does. So to see this sort of Renaissance and art coming up, like I see it out there and I see it on the fringes and I can't wait to integrate it into more of the mainstream. It's always the artist, Adam. It's always the artist. Yeah, I totally agree with you. at the same time, I'm weary of AI a bit. Okay, why? We still have to make physical art. We have to physically beautify the world around us. And I've always loved, I'm picky about my art that I like.

But I love psychedelic art a lot. And when I lived in Spain, I got to see MC Escher a few times. Nice. Not him, of course, but his work in some galleries. And then, of course, you know, Spain is the home. home of Dali and Gaudi. And I've been to Barcelona a couple of times. And man, the Sagrada Familia,

AI is never going to create the Sagrada Familia. The Sagrada Familia is still under construction over 100 years later. And let me tell you, anybody that talks about a museum dose, if you haven't dosed and gone to the Sagrada Familia, you don't know what a museum dose is. Let me tell you, eat just a few mushrooms, go to the Sagrada Familia. and then after that, go see the houses that Gaudi designed and built, like Casa Batlo, I think, is one of them. There's a couple of them.

And the houses, they're literally twisted and bent. You know, they're not at 90-degree angle. I mean, it's like you're walking into a Dr. Seuss book or something like that. I mean, that's really, really cool. And you're not going to be able to walk into AI artwork like that. You might not be able to walk into it. But let me ask you this. the way I kind of view it sometimes is like a piece of charcoal is an extension of you a pencil

is an extension of you and they when you the same way a blind man uses a cane to feel the world so too does an artist use a pencil to draw it or a sculptor to sculpt it on some levels so on that if I think from that level why wouldn't AI just also be an extension of us and like why wouldn't it have the same profound effects that extending your conscience into an inanimate object would have. Well, yeah, what I think about, you really want to go down some weird rabbit holes here. Yes, I do. I'm going to, someday I'm going to write a substack about this.

So there's something happening right now with AI that maybe some people don't know about. There's some interesting studies being done, kind of in the legacy of John Lilly. So if anybody doesn't know John Lilly. That guy, man, one of the most brilliant characters in American history. history. No relation to Lilly pharmaceuticals, none whatsoever. However, John Lilly, you know, was very famous in the 60s and going into the 70s because he was studying dolphins and LSD. He was trying to communicate with dolphins using float tanks and LSD. I mean, fascinating, fascinating guy. And so now there's a lot of AI research being done that's trying to figure out

how to communicate with animals. Like this could be very possible in the not too distant future. Yeah. One of my favorite creatures is the octopus. In recent years, the octopus has been declared a sentient being by various countries around the world. I think there's like a half a dozen countries that declared the octopus as sentient being. France is one of them. You know, the octopus, when you read about it and learn about it, it's an extremely mysterious creature. You know, the octopus may have come from space.

I mean, it is an alien. Yeah. It is truly a mystery and enigma to behold of life on Earth and nature itself. So I wonder, will we be able to communicate using AI with an octopus? And then combine this with the fact that a number of years ago, there was a study, you could find this on the internet, it was real and it happened, a study that was done with MDMA and octopuses. Researchers gave octopuses MDMA, and they behaved in a similar manner to human beings. So what happens if we can communicate with octopuses while they're on MDMA? What I picture is an octopus being a DJ at a music festival on MDMA,

and we can talk with it and tell it what to play. I mean, that is a bizarre thought, but I mean, that is not too far off the possibility. I mean, the possibility is almost already here. you know, it's a bizarre thought and not so bizarre right now. That's the world we live in. I mean, it's crazy. Did you imagine that? You go to a rave or music festival and the DJ is a talking octopus on the NDMA.

Sign me up. I'm in. I'm in the first one there. Yeah. So like that, I'm in too. Well, think about it too. They change the texture on their skin. And if you think about it, so do we.

Like, I think it's called. Yeah. I forgot the term it to use. But like, if you have a. talk to someone, you see their face blush or they get goosebumps. Like, that's the same way in which an octopus communicates to other, to other, to another octopus. Like, they change their shape. They change their form. Maybe it's a higher version of communication. Like, there's, there's so much vulnerability there. There's so many different ways in which they can change the patterns on their skin. Maybe we,

maybe they're vastly more advanced when it comes to communication. Like to change the texture on your skin to show an emotion is to really show someone how you feel. And we see it. We call it blushing or we call it being embarrassed, but like it's so juvenile the way we describe it versus the way in which they work with each other. I think it's fascinating, man. Yeah, like octopuses are so, so fascinating. They can distinguish between human beings by basically tasting you. When they put their tentacle and sucker on you, it's like a dog smelling you. You know, they can tell the difference between human beings and they seem to form bonds and relationships with certain human beings. it might make it difficult to do animal research at them you know what i'm not i'm not vegan or vegetarian

but i'll tell you what since i learned about octopuses i don't eat octopus anymore yeah you'll not eat an octopus no way but i'll still eat a hamburger so you know me too i'm imperfect i still like my meat i mean i live in mexico mexico is a carnivore country 1,000 percent but they also love octopus and so when i'm at the beach i won't eat octopus there's no way Yeah, it's so, and I think it opens up a whole other avenue of language and communication. When we start talking about talking to animals, why not, you know, Jeremy Narby wrote a great book called the, it's called, forgive me for the title, it's called like the serpent and the vine. It's not exactly it, but just look at Jeremy Narby. And he tells this story about a group of anthropologists that go down to South America.

And I think like 10 of them go down and they meet with this tribe and they're trying to learn. A lot of them are there trying to find out, which herb you. you use for this, you know, they got some big farmer reps down there, whatever. And the, the tribe just kind of is like watches them for a while, talks to them a little bit. And then they're not really giving up or talking to them. So everybody leaves except two of them. And then the two anthropologists are like, hey, thank you so much for everything you've taught us, you know. And the, the tribe is like, hey, why are you guys sticking around? Everybody else left. What are you guys doing here. And they're like, we find your teachings fascinating. You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you're talking to plants and

stuff like this, but he goes, well, how come those other guys left? And they go, well, they think it's nonsense. They said, you can't talk to plants. Like, you guys, you don't what the hell you're talking about. And so one of the, one of the, one of the, one of the guys, I'll show you how we talk to plants. And so we, they go into the forest and he, he, he shows them like, there's like, there's like, this incredibly venomous snake. And he's like, see that snake right there? That snake will kill you with one bite. And he goes, look at that snake. He goes, tell me what you see. He goes, well, I see like a green head and a couple white dots on his head.

And he goes, yeah, you can see. Now look at this plant over here. What do you see? And goes, well, it's sort of shaped like the snake's head and has two white dots on it. And he goes, now you're talking to the plants. That plant is telling you that it is the anti-venom for that snake. Do you see what I'm saying? And he's just like, oh, I get it.

So so many people just brush off this idea that probably got lost in translation. Like, you can talk to plants. Like, that guy's crazy. No, you can. Like, the plant. is communicating with you on a level if you have an awareness about it. And I think there's so much of that with animals, with plants, with trees, with the environment, if we're willing to look and listen.

Yeah, that goes right back to this idea of monistic idealism in that, the primacy of consciousness. Because that's another example, perfect example, is plant consciousness. They do appear to be conscious, and there's more studies about this happening. I mean, the most basic one is, you know, how flowers, is it the sunflower maybe, how they turn towards the sun, heliotropism. That's a sign of consciousness. So that you can talk with a plant. It shouldn't be such a radical idea.

It seems to be, you know, very possible. I mean, that's the thing you hear all the time with, you know, shamans, you know, when you ask the question or wonder about, well, how the heck out of the thousands or tens of thousands of plants and Amazon that they figure out it was these two to combine to make ayahuasca? And they all say the same thing. They're like the plants told us. You know, it came to us in a dream, you know, so.

It's interesting. I got a, my friend Betsy comes in chair. She says, thank you, Betsy, for hanging out with us today. She says, when we say medicine, do we mean the substance or the story wrapped around it? Ooh. My best answer is yes and. It's both. Get out of either or thinking.

Yeah. Embrace both. It's yes and. It's the, it's the compound, the psych. goactive substance, the psychedelic, and the story. Because I don't think, though, you can't separate those. They're inseparable, especially in any kind of indigenous culture, language, you know, framework. Those are inseparable, the medicine with the myth.

And that's why I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell. Yeah. You know, I just love all that heroes journey stuff, the man of a thousand faces. these things are inseparable. And to that point, I think that's part of the big problem that we're having right now in the western United States. We've lost our story. We have no myth. We don't know what our story is.

And we have to create a new one for the future. That arguably is more important than the psychedelic work going on right now is we have to create a new collective story myth parable about who we are and where we're going. And I think that'll go great lengths then to guide the direction that psychedelics will go in. As well, it's beautifully said. I know Doc Askin talks about rising above the hero's journey. Is it possible to rise above the hero's journey or is the hero's journey the story that we find ourselves at a threshold guardian right now? Can we have a new myth or are these? I don't know.

I just saw you share that piece on LinkedIn and I read it. It was a really interesting piece. I appreciated it, you know, the pushback against the hero. I don't know. You know, is the hero's journey so fundamental, you know, in an archetypal way to the human psyche that is just, you can't, it can't be minimized, it can't be marginalized. I don't know. I don't know. But I, you know, I think that's a great myth for right now, because we're entering that cave. We're going into it right now. The cave we fear to enter, we're, in it right now. And it also holds the, you know, the treasure we seek. So I think I'm going to

stick with the hero's journey until somebody comes up with a better replacement. And, you know, like you said earlier, almost all the artists in the world have just stolen the same idea from the past and improved it. That's how all great art works. It's just all the same ideas recycled and improved upon. So I imagine we'll come up with a better version of the hero's journey at some point and I'll be ready for it. Maybe it's you that creates it. Maybe it's me. You know, we'll probably need it. But somebody eventually down the road will be saying, oh, that's just what Joseph Campbell did. But this is such a better, you know, face on it or version or addition of it. So we'll see what happens. Yeah, I love it. I think we're in the midst of it right now.

It's, it's ever changing. And maybe it's, like you said, maybe it's just new to us. Maybe we have forgotten this part of the journey. And I love Joseph Campbell. You know, he says, where, where, we're you stumble is where you find the treasure. And it harkens back to the idea of tragedy. Yeah. And one little quick point about you. Yeah, please. Talking about remembering and or forgetting.

I'm a big Graham Hancock fan. And I love ancient civilizations and all that stuff. And that's something he talks about is this idea of us having collective amnesia. Yeah. You know, how much have we lost over the, over the millennia? You know, and I think that's part of what's happening now is because we lost a lot of that spirituality in connection to something. bigger than us.

You know, that stuff can't be repressed or depressed forever. It's going to resurface. It's going to percolate back to the surface. And I think that's what's happening now. And it seems like it's new to us, which it is basically in the West. But for the rest of the world, they're like, oh, man, it's just back to the future. Yeah. You know, there's a, it reminds me, there's a great series of books by Velikovsky.

And he wrote like an entire different. history to the world that we live in. I think the series is called Ages and Chaos. He talks about Earth being part of a different solar system and Saturn actually being the original sun and then the two solar systems collided and that's what all these epic poems were about. It's so fascinating to think about how different our world would be if our origin story was different and maybe it was.

Velikovsky was brilliant. He was brilliant. And that set of books for anybody listening, if you want a different lens on, you on how, why we're so messed up. Like, Reed Velikovsky, you will see his theories of, like, how we came to be. And it makes so much more sense, at least to me in so many levels. But, you know, it gets back to the idea of history. Like, what if history is wrong?

Like, what is history? Isn't it his story? Like, whose story are we talking about here? It's crazy to think about it. Yeah, well, we know the dangers of history. And it's always the victors that write it. So, yeah. Yeah.

And yet at the same time, like I said, you know, with the all, history or ancient civilization crowd that's not the mainstream, you know, the Graham Hancock's of the world and his protégés now. You know, that's an interesting symbol of the times too, is that there's all these new questions and mysteries arising from our ancient past that, you know, maybe when I was a kid, we thought we're all settled. You know, of course the Egyptians built the pyramids. Who else did it? What are you stupid? And now everything, everything is being, you know, questioned, which is just, just fascinating, you know, and I've seen some people question, which we really don't know. What is our origin?

Where did humans come from? Nobody knows. Yeah. I've seen people say, you know, like aliens, Anunaki, you know, whatever. And really, I can't say no because I don't know. I don't have proof for evidence for or against. So that's, again, just embracing that I don't know mind in suspending belief and disbelief at the same time. It's so amazing.

Adam, incredible conversation. This is so much fun. I'm so grateful to get to hang out with you and talk to you and looking forward to more of them. I know you got to, before we land the plane here, man, what do you got coming up? Where can people find you? And what are you excited about? Oh, well, recently I'm working on Global Psychedelic Week 2025 as we interview people around the world who work in the psychedelic field and community. And that's been so much fun.

That's one of the things I love most about working. this field is the learning. I just two of my biggest characteristics are love to learn and curiosity. So I've been able to come up with all the questions. I get to enjoy the creative freedom and liberty to create all the questions that we send out to our participants around the world. So I learn a ton about psychedelics. So that's that's really fun. And then I think, I guess I'll go public. Why not? I think I'm going to psychedelic science in June. So oh boy. Like wow. That is going to be, I've never been. It'll be my first time. So that's going to be quite mind manifesting literally and figuratively. It's going to be fantastic to be able to meet all these lovely, beautiful people I've met and come to know online in real life because that's where the best magic happens. So I've been to a lot of big conferences and events before in other industries, but this one sounds like it's going to take the cake. I went to Burning Man once years ago, and I think.

think this is kind of like maybe Burning Man for the white collar laptop class, maybe. I don't know. At least I know I won't be nearly as dusty and unshowered and dirty. The food might be better, too. So we'll see what happens. It's going to be quite, quite intriguing, I believe. A lot of dots are going to be connected. And the best place to find me, I never ever thought I'd say this in my life, but one of the best

places is LinkedIn now. LinkedIn used to be so stiff in corporate and like tie, you know, tight up all the way to the neck. And now it's like it is the number one, I think social media tool for the psychedelic community. I mean, they don't seem to care on LinkedIn about anything psychedelic, censorship. I mean, it's thriving on there. And I think a lot of people who don't use LinkedIn don't realize it. And of course, you know, you're not going to get on LinkedIn, maybe just for psychedelic stuff, but if you really, if anyone out there listening really nerds out to psychedelic stuff, and you're missing out if you're not on LinkedIn. Yeah.

I just everyone is on there connecting, and it's a, it's one of the few bright spots of social media nowadays. And then the other one I would send people to to find me as Substack. I got on Substack last year, and there's some people that are kind of complaining about where Substack is now in terms of platform, but I still think there's a lot of good things happening with substack because it seems to be, as Ted Joya says, Ted Joya is a treasure. It's the only place where the counterculture is kind of forming, happening, still existing, because we don't have any counterculture that exist in a physical sense anywhere in the United

States now. It's all been gentrified. And it seems like there's a small pocket of it on Substack. And, you know, there's virtually no censorship on Substack. So I write all the craziest stuff on substack. All my spiciest takes on psychedelics and what's happening in the world today are on substack. It's just Adam dot Mazio at substack. It's called the divine influx because this is something I want to investigate in the future are these weird mystical experiences that people have that seems to be some kind of

cosmic download, you know, whether that's, you know, seeing a gnome in the woods or, you know, people talk about having like Tesla, Nikola Tesla. talked about having these downloads when scientists see the designs or model of something they've been working on for years. And that's what a divine influx is. It actually comes from religious studies and stories of saints having these experiences, you know, seeing wheels of fire in the sky and stuff like that. So I'm very interested in this idea of the divine influx because I think it's going to happen more as our consciousness shifts. There are more of these experiences are going to happen and people are going to need to talk about them.

I hear you doing on time, Adam. Am I taking you too far? Are you okay on time? No, I'm all good, man. I'm all good. Okay, well, I was like, I forgot to ask you before we started. Let's back up a little bit and talk about Global Psychedelics Week. Maybe you can tell people what that is, like, what's going on there?

Who's common? And like, why are you excited about it? So, Global Psychedelics Week is a great idea that Molica, Mondi, Dennis Walker put on. They came up with the idea. Fortunately, with psychedelics, there's a barrier to entry right now. Events, conferences, they're expensive. Psychedelic science included. So Mlits and Dennis came up with a fantastic idea to basically destroy that barrier to entry

and put on Global Psychedelic Week. Global Psychedelic Week takes place in November. I don't know the exact dates in November, but it's all online. And I'm not sure if it's free. it might be free. I don't actually don't have the details yet. But if it's not free, it's going to be extremely low cost. And then it gives everybody an opportunity to engage, participate, and be part of the global psychedelic community. And Mlitz and Dennis have invited speakers from around the world. I think, you know, dozens, maybe two, three dozen people, because it's going to be a

full week of speakers online talking about psychedelics. And I think that's fantastic. because I don't want to pay a ton of money to go conferences and events all the time. You know, I'm always trying to get a press pass to go to these things. I'm not rich either. This isn't a field that's making people rich right now. Believe me, anybody out there that thinks working in this field is going to make you rich. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am doing this for our pure passion and love.

Yeah. And trying to make the world a better place. So, yeah, it's going to be very interesting event because it's going to, it's going to democratize psychedelics maybe hopefully make them a little bit more egalitarian because there's people around the world that live in economies that can't afford to do these things. Best example was last October when I went to an event, my first psychedelic events in Mexico City. I mean, it was it was very obvious there that there's just a select group of people that can

attend those types of events in Mexico. And so, you know, this should be something that's available to everyone. So this global psychedelic week will be a beautiful opportunity for anyone out there to participate, engage, and be involved. So what I've been doing is we're working on all these blogs to kind of prime it, prime the pump, if you will, you know, raise awareness of it, brand awareness, so that we have this really long runway and or, you know, landings, takeoff strip leading up to the events in November. So we can build some, you know, promotional awareness of it and brand awareness. I think it's fascinating. And I know Melita put on Silasive in San Francisco. She does that event quite a bit.

And that was a home run. Like there was so many cool people there. It was online. It was for people to go and talk and listen. And there was a lot of space for the audience to come in and ask questions. And it just seems to me, like when we pan back, like I can almost begin to see the day glow school buses rolling into the event. You know what I mean? It's starting to see some new merry pranksters rolling out.

And, you know, it's so. Yeah. And I really love the Dennis and Molitza's, the cut of their jib to use an old school phrase. It's a favorite phrase of mine. Because, you know, like I mentioned to you not long ago, George, you know, with the trauma boxing of psychedelics and now this moment of the spotlight and limelight that therapists are in, there's this possibility that they've become or are becoming the new priest class of psychedelics. Yeah. So anything that that opens this up more and democratizes it more and makes it. more egalitarian, you know, helps push back against, you know, the gatekeeping of psychedelics.

Because, you know, this existed or 20 or 30 years ago? You know how I first discovered psychedelics was being in a fraternity? That was it. Full transparency, man, fraternity, that's what did it. There was a small click of guys in my fraternity because it was all the freaks and outlaws and rebels that didn't fit into this stereotypical fraternies. I didn't join the jocks. I didn't join the rich guys. I didn't join, you know, whatever.

I joined the fraternity that was all the rejects and outlaws and rebels that didn't fit in the other ones. And within mine, there was a small group of hippies. And they introduced me to psychedelics. So I didn't have to go to a therapist or anything. I ate a bunch of mushrooms and walked into a jungle in Florida. And that's what got me here today. Man, it reminds me of the old Arthurian myths where they would eat. Each individual would find its way into the darkest part of the forest.

And you had to go alone. You had to find the spot that was the darkest for you. And then you would go in there and you would look for the Holy Grail, man. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And along those lines, totally being 100% honest about this, people may not believe it, but I do have pictures. I ate a few mushrooms once here in the Yucatan and went into a cave at night by myself, a Mayan cave with weird stuff in there like, you know, human teeth. pottery shards and bats and all kinds of creepy crawlies that hang out in caves in Mexico at night.

Yeah, that's, you want to talk about face and fears, man, walking into a cave by yourself at night on mushrooms. Woo, boy, that'll do it. That'll do it. When was this, man? I mean, we should talk about this. Maybe flesh that out a little bit more, man. Back in 2021, because I was living in Austin, Texas at the time.

And I, so, God, that's a whole other story about why I left Austin in the States. but yeah, I left in June of 2021 and I spent a year backpacking across Mexico. And I flew from Austin to Cancun. And so the first couple of months or so, I spent all over the Yucatan. And yeah, I was just all over the Yucatan. And I was in a really, really small town, not far from Marita. And it's just in the heart of the jungle, part of Maya country. And, you know, I was visiting all the temples, the ruins, the pyramids.

And I was at a very interesting property of a shaman. I didn't even know he was a shaman before I rented the place there. Got there. He was a shaman. And he's got this cave on his property with a ladder that goes down into it. He took me there during the day once to give me a tour. Of course, even though it was during the day, the whole cave is pitch black. You still got to take flashlights and the headlamps, of course.

And he gave me a little tour. Not a huge cave, not very deep. You know, it goes down. The ladder goes down about 15 or 20 feet. And then the cave doesn't go any deep. but there's like three or four tunnels that spoke out from the entrance. And he took me down some of the tunnels. I had a crawl on my hands and knees through some of them.

Then he's just like casually, yeah, there's some human teeth. There's some Mayan pottery shards. There's like a little altar in there with little things that people offer to the spirits. And it's called the La Gruta de los Aloucés. And Gruta's cave and the Alucés are what I talk about they're the the Mayan jungle gnomes the little forest spirits and creatures that are like whether they're elves or gnomes or goblins or whatever they are they think they live in that cave and so yeah i asked him i'm like hey can i go in there one night by myself he's like yeah yeah sure go ahead

just make sure you bring flashlights and don't bring one because for sure it'll go out and then you're well screwed bring two or three which i did and i ate a few mushrooms and i went through the jungle by myself, got to the cave, went down in it at night, and I stood there for, it was between a minute and two minutes with no lights. I wanted to feel what it was like to stand in a cave alone in the dark at night with just nothing. And it's, man, wow, a powerful, powerful experience. And I think that's one of the greatest lessons of psychedelics that they can teach you is how to get over your fear, because fear is all here. It's all mentally manufactured. And they really, really help you push your boundaries and do things that you never thought you'd be capable of.

And then, of course, I turned on my headlamp after a mirror two. And then there's like tarangulas everywhere and bats. And man, there's insects in these caves that look like deep sea creatures, like from thousands of feet deep. They have very spindly, long, skinny legs. They look like they're from an HP Lovecraft book. It's weird. It's weird. And, you know, the caves, if anybody does know, they are sacred grounds of the Maya. They were, um, places where they did a lot of sacred ceremonies and a lot of times they buried their dead and caves are the underworld caves were a part of the triad of Mayan cosmology so there's a direct connection in their cosmology between caves and the underworld so when you start rooting

around in Mayan caves in the Yucatan man like whoo you don't know what you're getting into all the time but thankfully this you know no problems And I didn't find any, you know, jaguars or anything in the jungle. So, you know, sometimes it's safer out there in the world than we realize. Man, that's such an epic story. I think it speaks to the whole metaphor of like learning to see in the dark and fear and all of those things. Like that, that's, I think that's a ritual or a right of passage. That's definitely a right of passage, man.

It is. It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, to put yourself through a right of passage. That's exactly what it is. And I'm not going to say that I'm superhuman or anything. There's still all kinds of things that scare me. But there's now many fewer things that scare me because I know what I'm capable of.

And now that I think of it, when I was there staying with this shaman at his property, he's also an artist. He makes things. He creates things. And one of the things that he does is jewelry. So I don't know how well you can see this. But this is a necklace that he made. And this is local amber that has all kinds of significant meaning and properties in Mexico.

Then this is a bone that he carved that he found in that cave that I went into. And he told me, straight up, he's like, man, I don't know if that bone is animal or human. This could be from who knows what, you know. So I was like, dude, it's one of a kind. There's the only one he made. So I was like, that's real art. Like, just take my money and give me that necklace. If I'm wearing some Mayan bone of a human being, like, let's do it.

Take my money. I can't tell you how much I love that. Like, that to me sounds like a real exploration of self and going it alone. And I feel on some level, like that's what schools wish they could give in a lecture or something like that. But you never can. Like, that is an adventure. That's a call to adventure that you took upon yourself to invent. investigate and you meet this guy. You didn't even know what it was. And now, like, you have such a meaningful, deep, rich experience of the ideas of initiation, of rights of passage, of facing fears. Like, that's the real deal right there. It's not a certificate. It's a, it's an internal validation of doing something that most people would be afraid to do. And that's the psychedelic journey. That's what, that's the hero's journey, the psychedelic journey, the exploration of self, learning to see in the dark. It's,

All of it, man. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, there's a lot of talk about integration. And I'm all for integration. Integration is huge. I used to just kind of like brush that off and give it a backhand and be like, integration, whatever. And then once I went to my first Ayahuasca ceremony and really then understood integration, yeah, it's everything. But I think there need to be a lot more discussions about some of these small pieces of

the puzzle that you can actually, you know, actual practices of how you integrate this. into your life. Like, okay, if you feel scared, try and start doing small things that you used to be afraid of and then overcome them and then keep stepping it up, go higher and higher on the ladder until you're walking into a cave in the jungle in the Yucatan on mushrooms at night by yourself in the dark and not turning a light on. You know, like we are capable of so much more than we give ourselves credit for, you know, and you're still going to be imperfect after that. You're still going to be afraid of certain things, but you're going to get life through life a lot, lot better because you realize you're capable of so much more than you imagine. And you can put yourself into these

scary, fearful situations and realize it's most of it's in your mind. Yeah, sure, bad things happen in life. But most of the time, you know, we're afraid because they're mental constructs and illusions that we've created in our mind. And yeah, it's just, I would say if people do that here in Mexico just, yeah, kind of give a little bit of respect and honor to the gods because they take that stuff seriously down here. And once you start going into caves in Mexico, yeah, you get some vibes and some energy. Like I can talk about this for a long time. I don't mess around in caves or like leave litter or, you know, it's like Burning Man,

leave no trace behind. You know, and if I get, if it is a trace, I usually leave some kind of, you know, offering to the gods and to the spirit. you know, whatever it is that they like, you know, in down in the Yucatan, it might be like a little shot of there's an ancient Mayan drink called Balchay. We have a little bit of a shot of Balchay for the gods or the spirits. You know, it's like leaving cookies for Santa Claus. But maybe if you don't leave the cookies for Santa Claus, you might have some bad luck, you know.

And that's just, it's just not something we're accustomed to in the West. I'm so grateful for this. Like I think the word integration, you know, when we talked about, language earlier. Sometimes if you use a word too much, it loses its meaning and it gives a false idea of what it is. And like, those are real integration. And I don't know that anybody can integrate something for you, especially an experience with some divinity or something divine or whatever you want to call it. Like the integration is like a personal process where you as an individual figure out what it was that was blocking you and what that message had for you. And it just

seems like that slippery slope when you start passing out like integration guides, man, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Like, I feel, maybe I shouldn't, for me, this speaks volumes of what I'm thinking when I say, I fear this, but the language has power because it's meaningful. And when we stop using the language meaningfully, it loses its ability to cut. The instrument loses its edge when it becomes an institution on so many levels. It's so refreshing to hear this story, man. I'm thinking, well, what integration? Maybe we could just pull on that thread a little bit more.

Is it, are we losing the edge of integration if we start using it and allowing everyone to be an integration coach? Oh, who. You know, but let's say yes and. Yes, and, again, yes and. Because I think with diligence and education, anybody can integrate on their own. Agreed. I think it's possible for anyone to not. They must. They must on their own.

I would say it's not for everyone, but if you can, it might be better. It might be better. But you kind of have to have some kind of background in spirituality and mythology, you know, be well read, have read, you know, Joseph Campbell, some Carl Jung have some things to bounce ideas off of. Because if you just don't have a background in any of this stuff and then you go and do something. psychedelics, you think you're going to integrate on your own, you might be able to, and you might be fine. And at the same time, you're not going to get as much out of it as you could if you can properly integrate. Because now integration to me is more beneficial and provides more opportunities and more post-traumatic growth maybe than the experience itself, than the psychedelic journey itself. Like I had,

Not to talk about Mexico more, but when I came to Mexico in 2021 to start that adventure for a year, within a week, I was in Tulum. Touloum is a hell of a place. It's not my favorite place in Mexico because it's kind of like if anybody knows Abiza in Spain, you know, it's the party capital of Europe in the Mediterranean. Tulum is basically like the Abiza of the West. Tulum is not a natural Mexican creation. It's been created by Westerners. It's been created by the West. And it's all about partying.

but with spirituality and psychedelics thrown in. So anyways, I was in Tulum and long story short. Son of a gun, I didn't find Bufo, but Bufo found me. I did a Bufo ceremony in the jungle in a tepee of all things by myself, never done Bufo before. And then let me tell you, the integration after that was intense, intense. I over the next five, actually, no, as long as it was like six or seven months, I had the most unbelievable chain of synchronicity's unfold. And each synchronicity got stronger, more potent, and beyond what I say, lottery winning odds.

To the point that I was almost thinking I was going crazy. I was like, this is nuts. And it kind of came back to some of those old psychedelic heroes of mine that you don't hear much about anymore. You know, maybe like Robert Anton Wilson, he's an old favorite of mine. And when you go through these experiences where you're having, experiencing your subjective reality and you're losing your ground to what you think reality is and you think you might be going nuts. And these synchronities kept on happening and happening. The first one that happened was within two weeks after I smoked the toad.

I was in Bidoli. It's a small Spanish colonial town in the jungle. I'm in this restaurant at like 8 or 9 o'clock at night. and the owner comes over the table and asks me if everything's okay. And I was like, yeah, man, everything's awesome. I was really enjoying my meal, awesome food. We're talking, talking. He realizes I'm a gringo.

And then he changes to English. So we start speaking English. He speaks really fluent English. And I'm like, oh, hey, where did you learn English? And he says, oh, I lived in Chicago. I was like, no way. I'm from Chicago. And I was like, wow, this is cool.

And I said, how long did you live in Chicago? He lived there like 12 years. And I said, oh, really, what did you do there? He said, I taught. I was a teacher. I said, where did you teach school? And he said, I taught school at Wilbur Wright Jr. College.

I was like, what? That's where I got my associate's degree. Wilbur Wright College was like a less, less than a mile away from my family home where I grew up in Chicago. That's impossible. Yeah. Yeah. Like Chicago and Vida lead, what, 2,000, 2,500 miles apart from each other. And there's 300 over 300, 3,000.

330 million people in America. There's over 130 million in Mexico. What are the chances that these two people connect? That's impossible. That's the best definition of a synchronicity. Then I had four or five, six more synchronities like that in Mexico, but each one got more improbable, more beyond lottery winning odds. And I thought I was losing it. And I read a lot about synchronicity. I love Carl Jung and synchronicity, his definition of it and ideas around it. And at first I was thinking, okay, these things were happening to me. And then I said no. And then I said these things are happening for me. And I said no. And then finally what what settled my mind down and realized, helped me realize it wasn't going nuts was these things are happening with me.

It's the ocean and a drop and a drop in the ocean. I'm flirting and dancing with consciousness. And this is why integration is so important because especially with DMT, like Bufo, I've not done Iboga. I think Iboga could be the only, you know, plant medicine stronger than Bufo. Bufo, you start getting into that world and you really have to take care of your integration. Thankfully, you know, I was traveling, you know, across Mexico by myself in a lot of nature, spent a lot of time alone in nature, which is very, very good. And interestingly enough, another. little synchronicity happened last year. I wrote a few pieces for psychedelics today,

and one of them was about spiritual emergence and spiritual emergency. I didn't know a lot about that at the time. And so this can be common after using psychedelics and what one of those symptoms of spiritual emergence or spiritual emergency is synchronicities. Because what's happened, you've opened some kind of psychic channel and it's allowing consciousness to pour into you, like it never has poured into you before. And that's basically what happened to me was I had some kind of like psychic opening where my crown shock or third eye or whatever got blasted open by the Bufo. And then for the next five, six months, all these synchronities were just,

later on I was in Krettoe in northern Mexico. And I met a guy who was best friends with a kid I went to grammar school with. And he called him up. He called him up on the spot on the phone. phone and said Philip, man, you're not going to believe this. I'm standing here with Adam Mazio. And like, I heard the whole conversation. It's just like, there's no, that's, that's, that's, that's synchronicity. That's the collective unconscious. Is it how do you think that's happening all day long everywhere to all of us? We're just not aware of it?

Yeah. Yeah, I've read a lot about that. It's so crazy. That's so crazy. That's what people say is that you have to train your eye for and it's happening everywhere all the time around us but you just have to you know you have to have to have that trained mind and kind of be in a flow state and you know you have to do your regular practices you know do a little bit of meditation yoga journaling spend some time in nature have have that frequency tuned into the universe a little bit and they're happening to us everywhere all the time all around us they've been happening to me you know all my life i mean they happen everyone It's just when you notice them.

You know, I had my strongest first strongest one when I was in my early 20s when I really noticed it. And so since then, actually, no, my first biggest one was maybe when I was a kid because I was in New Orleans with my parents. We ran into one of my grammar school teachers in New Orleans. And I was like, what? What? This stuff is just impossible, you know?

So I've had a lot of synchronities over my life, but this experience in Mexico with the chain of them and then each one becoming more improbable and stronger. It's just like that. That sealed the deal for me, that there is something going on with consciousness and something behind the curtain, you know, beyond the matrix, if you will. I don't know what it is, but there is something making things happen that it's the most beautiful mystery in the world. And so I think that's why integration is so important, because you will see more magic and mystery during integration, the actual psychedelic journey itself. Because I have had some downloads, too, during integration periods where something just

will shoot into your mind out of nowhere. Holy crap, man. That answers that question. I've been wondering about my whole life for years. So, yeah, really nurture and cultivate that period of integration, try and spend time in nature, spend time alone, do some yoga, some journaling, you know, bodywork. Go to a float tank. I love float tanks, man.

Flow tanks are the shit. Like that's probably one of the best tools for integration is float tanks, man. So, yeah, don't do psychedelics for the journey. Do it for the wisdom that you might be able to receive afterwards. That was the best, that was the best breakdown of integration I've heard on my podcast, man. Thank you. Like that's brilliant. And I think it speaks to the true heart of what integration is and why it's so tricky

and why we get caught up in words. stuff but that that was that was beautifully done man thank you for that yeah and like i said george i used to be like no man i don't know yeah what is the integration going to do for me it's all about the journey man like show me more entities i want to see another machine elf i want to see another praying mantis and then yeah like yeah it's it's it's all about integration yeah yeah because that's that's where the the real the truth and beauty comes in when you you realize that you have a connection to something bigger than you. I mean, you get like, kind of like the tease of that during the journey or the experience, but the real meat and potatoes comes during integration. It makes me feel like, I know

I've gone through times in my life where like I'll hit it pretty heavy, you know, and it seems like you can't get further. You can visit the medicine as many times as you want, but you're not really going to get any further until you start doing what you're talking about now is learning the lessons and then seeing them in the world and then acting upon them. And then when that begins to grow, maybe you're ready to come back and learn something new. But maybe depending on where everybody is in their life, when they visit these altered states, like that's the classroom. And now it's time to go put the work out in your real life.

And when you start seeing it, they can come back and visit me and we can learn more. But you can't learn more until you actually do the integration and you have these experiences of synchronicity. Or you have these experiences of actually feeling and being the awareness that you were taught about. It's like learning the lesson. And I guess that's doing the work is what they say, right? Yeah, yeah. And this is a tricky thing for me because I was think of the Allen Watts line. When you get the call, hang up the phone.

Yeah, totally. I'll be doing psychedelics for the rest of my life. I still like to answer the phone, even though I've gotten the call. But I do them far less now. I don't do them nearly as much. Actually, the last time I had a journey was around a year ago. But I still like to check in once a year, twice a year maybe three times at the most. But yeah, I realize now that I just don't need it as much because when you have, like, say,

the experience I was talking about with all these synchronicities, you are, you are the magic. You are the mystery. And so you don't need the psychedelics to give that to you because you are it. It's just a matter of finding ways to tap into that without the medicine. that then is like maybe yoga, meditation, a float tank, because these same psychedelic experiences can happen just as well with other modalities that don't involve plant medicine. And that's something that's, those are really, really interesting discussions too,

how you can have these very potent psychedelic experiences just as frequently with meditation, float tanks, you know, breath work. So, you know, it's very possible without plant medicine too. So yeah, it's nice when you learn these things because you don't need to be constantly going back and picking up the phone as much. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the check-in too. Like, it's really nice to just find a – and for me, the psychedelics is always – for me, I do it alone. You know, I'll hang out when everyone goes to bed or something like that. And I don't see anything wrong with recreational.

In fact, I think that's a good way for people to start their journey is maybe split an eighth with a friend and check out a laser show or something like that or maybe go to a concert or something like that. But I know when I was younger, I used them in a way that was much more recreational than it is today where now it's more, you know, you're finding a way to think about things in life and have them make sense when the world doesn't make sense. It's interesting to see the relationship grow. And maybe that's what happened in the 60s. Maybe we had a different relationship with psychedelics then. And if we go back to the conversation we were talking about, where psychedelics is the trickster that's moved into our lives, you know, maybe that's moving in through our lives on a bigger lens.

Like, okay, now you guys are teenagers or now you guys are adolescents. It's interesting just to see the evolution of the relationship change in your life and my life and in society's life. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, being Gen X, I mean, it's amazing to see this dramatic shift in our relationship to psychedelics. Because like I keep saying, None of this trauma boxing or framing existed 20, 30 years ago.

It was all more about explore. It was this kind of psychedelic lineage and legacy of the outlaws, the rebels, the iconoclasts, like Timothy Leary, all this Huxley, Ken Kesey, Hunteress Thompson, Bill Hicks. Yes. These are all my heroes. And so I always did when I was younger most of the time, you know, psychedelics on my own by myself and learned a lot. on my own by doing this. And even kind of like what you're saying with recreational use, I think we could all use some improvement on the language of that as well.

Because I would say that there's kind of like healing, recreational, and then spiritual. So I used to be primarily recreational. Then some years ago, I turned the corner and started using psychedelics in a more spiritual way, which meant that I'm a national park rat. I love going to hiking in the national parks by myself. I do. There's nothing better than eating a bunch of mushrooms and a hiking to the top of a mountain by yourself to see a sunrise or a sunset. I mean, that's where it's at for me. You know, I think it could be good for a lot of people, not everyone, but it's fantastic.

And I almost feel criminals saying that I do that. And there shouldn't be anything criminal about that. Like saying, I love spending time in nature on a head full of psychedelics. That's like the healthiest thing you can do. I mean, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing because, yeah, like nature and psychedelics, they're just one. They go hand in glove. I remember when I was young, the first hippies I would meet would always say, do it in nature. Always do it in nature. I was like, ah, I'll go to a club, a show, a concert, a festival.

I don't need to do these damn things in nature. And now I'm like, wow, those old hippies, they knew exactly what they were talking about. I love it, man. It reminds me of growing up. I was born in 75 as well. And there was all of this, for me growing up, like I would, I was a big fan of the doors. I would read like the Jim Morrison poetry, you know, and like just see the way that these guys stood up to the system and, and we're really pushing the boundaries of what was wrong and what

was criminal and this is right. And this. And it's interesting to think that all of us that grew up in that Gen X are now where we are now. It's almost like on some level, hey, remember this? Like maybe it's our job to say what we learned when we came out there or just to remember and bring up the next group of people that are, it's interesting to think, like, we are kind of where they were when we were kids, if that kind of makes sense, just to see that cycle. It means me so profoundly grateful to grow up when I did and to have the experiences I've did. It's amazing to think about the generational divides and what we can learn from different generations and where we are now. Do you ever think about that?

I, a thousand percent agree with everything you just said. I basically just had the same conversation when I met Christian here in Wahakka. I was talking about, I think he's Gen X too. Yeah, I was talking about, you know, those old, I was talking about the old outlaws, you know, the Keseys, the Hunter S. Thompson, the Bill Hicks, the Aldous Huxleys. And how do we, how do we preserve that legacy and move it forward? And he's like, and Christian was saying something about, yeah, man, that's tough nowadays because the kids, we brought them up in a culture, society, and generation,

that's destroyed their attention span with all the black mirrors, you know, and nobody reads anymore. And we're all watching like reels online that last five seconds. You know, how do we, because to go explore and understand and resonate with that kind of lineage, you really need to have focus and attention and sit down and read books. And man, it's even hard for me. I'm not much better. Who isn't addicted to their phone nowadays? You've got to be basically a Shaolin monk to not be addicted to your phone. You know, so, I mean, I suffer from it too. I don't read as much now as I used to.

But thankfully, when I learned about this kind of outlaw, iconoclastic psychedelic lineage, you know, I wasn't addicted to a phone. You know, phones didn't exist then like they do today. I was going to bookstores, like weird underground, esoteric bookstores and meeting other freaks, you know, talking about psychics. Delix, you know, then somebody would teach me about Hunter Thompson or Bill Hicks or George Carlin. I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you would feel like you found a treasure. You know, like we don't, that doesn't exist that much now because everything's online and

attention spans are stunted. So this is a great question, George. Like how do we, how do we preserve that wisdom, that knowledge, that lineage? Because that's what I want to do. That's a big reason why I'm in this space and working in this field. Like, yeah, I think everybody should have the opportunity to heal. But like I said before, that's just getting back to baseline. What can we do beyond baseline once we all get back to here? And I think some of those answers lie in, you know, are psychedelic outlaws of the past. And then the next level up is, you know, esotericism, mysticism, and topics like that.

I think it's like, what if it's happening right now? Like maybe that's what Global Psychedelics Week is. Maybe it's an invitation to the wild. Maybe it's an invitation to the next group of seekers that are out there like, wait a minute, I think this is bullshit. What are these guys talking about? I mean, yeah, I'm going to try and write an article about this for a whole psychedelic week. Yeah, let's do it. Dennis's approval.

Because I want to throw Bill Hicks out there. I don't know anybody out there listening if you know Bill Hicks. But Bill Hicks, man, I try not to have heroes. Having heroes is dangerous. But Bill Hicks, man, for me, it doesn't get better than him. That guy was a spiritual warrior philosopher, genius, trickster galore. Like that guy, I'm so mad. I had chances to see him, even though I didn't know he existed.

He did shows in Chicago when I was young. But it was before I even knew who he was, man. I wish I could go back in time and see that guy perform live in Chicago. Because that guy, I wrote a piece recently. Hopefully it gets published for Global Psychedelic. you know, basically Bill Hicks knew and understood monistic idealism and the simulation theory before we were even talking about it. Because his famous bit about a positive drug story about the kid, the bit he does about the kid watching TV on acid or whatever that realizes he's just a dream of himself, that that whole bit is basically like the idea that we're living in a simulation in monistic idealism. Like Bill Hicks, man, that guy, he's my brother from another mother.

I like Carlin for me too. Like so much of Carlin's bits about time. Like there's a minute. Where's it at? It's gone. It's right now. Like so much of what he was talking about too. And like, but I really think that maybe it's up to the people that remember to go and set up the new one.

Like, you know, if you just start looking at the connections that are happening, like the mycelium is moving, a global, global second. And I just recently hooked up with this cat, Joshua Moyer, who was part of the art challenge. And this guy when I- I just met Josh, but recently myself. That was so awesome. What's up, Josh? I know you're over here. I told him today, he told me he's going to be on your podcast next week.

I'm like, this is awesome. I can be the opening act for you, warm up the audience, get a nice runway laid down for you. When I first met him, like, he was, he's like, hey, George, I see this artwork. It's so sick. You go, you do audio. And I'm like, hell, yeah, do some audio. And I watched this video of him. And he's playing on the street.

He's doing his own rendition of Jimmy Hendricks National Anthem, but he did it in Joshua Morrist. I was like, whoa, where's this guy been, dude? But I see all these connections coming together. And as they're coming together, it's like I almost get to experience the things that I saw as a kid. Like I envisioned them. You know what I mean?

Not that it was my vision, but like thinking about the doors or reading Huxley or just seeing the electric Kool-Colid acid test. Like, I had so many fans. Like, that must have been so insane. And then now I find ourselves here and we're talking about global psychedelic week. Like, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's a nice little story to tie this. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a nice little story to tie this all together. Okay. Really, really nice. So I always forget what year was. If it was 95, 96, I went to the first Woodstock reunion in Saugerties, New York, the big festival.

And I was there on Sunday morning and before one of my best friends fled because It was a disaster. Come Sunday, man, it looked like a medieval battlefield, man. It was horrible. It was bad. It was almost as bad as the original woodstock, I think. So before my friend Bob fled, I saw him at like 9 o'clock in the morning, and he's looking at me with this goofy look on his face.

And he's like, hey, open your mouth and sick out your tongue. And before I could ask why, he just slapped a hit of acid on my tongue. And it was it was Jesus Christ blotter. And later that day, in between bands, on the main stage, there was this artist that came out and they announced the whole crowd. There's like half a million people there. And they announced, this guy's going to paint Jimmy Hendricks at the original Woodstock. On this huge canvas that was like maybe six by six.

I mean, it was a gigantic canvas. And one dude painting it. So he paints it in between bands like five minutes, ten minutes. later, he's done, like super fast. This guy had three brushes in each hand between his fingers. So he's painting with two hands simultaneously, six brushes at once. Five, ten minutes later, he's done. And he's like, there it is.

There's Jimmy Hendricks. And everybody's looking. Nobody sees shit. Nothing. Nothing. And everybody's like, booing them. And like, oh, man, you're a scammer. This is shit.

And I'm like, like, what's going on here? because I'm on a head full of blotter. And then he's like, he's like, oh, I made a mistake. I made a mistake. He flips the canvas 180 degrees. And then boom, there's Jimmy Hendrix at the original Woodstock with his guitar, the headband, like perfect. Like a perfect Polaroid snapshot. This dude painted it upside down on a canvas that was like six by six in less than 10 minutes with two hands and six brushes.

That was one of the first most mind-blowing experiences I ever had on psychedelics. Like my brain melted out my ears and I saw it laying on the ground in a puddle. I was like, what? What? And that's the things that we don't have in the psychedelic culture today. You know, that's my positive drug story like Bill Hicks. You know, that's when you start realizing, okay, man, like reality isn't what it seems. You know, there is like an illusion, a bail, a matrix.

And man, it just blows your mind out of your skull. And those are the kind of, you know, maybe arcane, esoteric wisdoms that we can learn from psychedelics today that I think need to get discussed more. But more often than that, you can only learn that through your own direct subjective experience. Right. You just have to experience it on your own because there's nothing that can duplicate that. It's such a mind-blowing story, man. I wish I was there with you, man. It's the experience.

It's the experience is language. You know what I mean? We're like you experienced. You were there. You saw it. Like, oh, now you get it. You could tell stories about it. And this goes all the way back.

You can hear lectures about it. But you can't really understand it unless you experience it on some level. Yeah, and it's humbling because you realize how easy it is to trick us. Yeah. Our brains are really faulty and not well designed. I mean, they are in some ways beautifully designed. and others, man, we are just stupid creatures and very easily misled and tricked. And you see something like that on a headful of ass and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Like, yeah, it's it's an ontological shock. That's such a great one. Yes. Yeah, it blows my mind to think of it. And those guys are out there. Like it's just waiting and culminating and getting ready. It makes me so excited for psychedelic. Once you hear a story like that, you realize what's on deck.

You realize. And it gives me, I'm so grateful for the conversation because it's really easy to get cynical. It's really easy to see this stuff. But if you just pan back and the trickster is like, just take it easy. You have no idea what's on deck.

Just watch. The way it's perfect. Well, there's always beautiful things coming down the pipeline, George. You just like sit back, relax. I got a great meme because that's a theme here. I'm going to have to dig through it sometime. But I found it years ago. It's kind of like this Indian.

guru looking guy. He might be like a Sikh. And he seems to be lying down on a platform overlooking. It might be like a football or a soccer stadium or something. And there's just like absolute sheer chaos unfolding in the stadium or the space below them. And there's all these like little things above the people doing the crazy stuff in the stadium below. It's like climate change, nuclear war, pandemic, you know, whatever crisis that we're having today. And he's just like, laying down like this. Just chill. Just watch it all unfold. You know, just this is slow. And that's really where we need to be today. We can't, we can't allow ourselves to get sucked into the chaos and the poly crisis that's happening right now. We need to find a way to be above

that in a, in a figurative way to not let it affect us on the inside. We have to be able to just it's like the Bruce Lee line. Be like water. Let let yourself flow around it. Don't resist it. Don't push through it. Don't try and go over it. Just flow. Be soft. Be fluid. Be soft. Be flexible. And just flow. Let yourself flow around it. So it doesn't eat you up because what's happening in the world today will drive you nuts. It will just absolutely corrode and corrupt your psyche if you allow it to. Yeah, it's so well said, man. I can't wait to see that. I mean, that's beautiful.

Like that should be the flyer for psychedelic science week, man. That would be so sick, dude. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm no guru, man. I'm not lying. I'm not better than anybody else. But when you realize you have that capability in that capacity to just turn off, it's not even like turning off the outside world.

It's just like saying, okay, I see you, I feel you, I know you, but you're not going to affect me. You know, I'm just going to let it all happen around me, but I'm going to be in this little kind of like psychic safety and security bubble. That's what it is. You kind of just go through, you know everything happening around you. You feel it. You sense it. You're not dumb to it. But you have like a safety security bubble around you where it just doesn't, you don't allow it to affect you so much.

And man, we really, really need that now. Really need that. I think in addition, like it makes a mockery of all like the alarmism, too. You know what I mean? Like that's exactly what the kids need is like a break from all this ridiculousness, you know? It's so. Yeah. That's a super dangerous topic to get into because you can get into politics with that.

And some of the crises that we're being told are happening. And yet at the same time, because we're Gen X, you'll know about this. You know, when we were kids at school, we were told it was a hole in the ozone. Because everybody was using too much hairspray. That all the like the whatever the chemicals in the hairspray were causing the ozone to melt. and that the sun was going to just like totally come in and irradiate us and we're all going to burn to a crisp. Well, where's the hole in the ozone now? I haven't heard about the ozone in 30 years.

So like, yeah, alarmism. Yeah, are those things that we're being conditioned or trained to be alarmed about really real? I don't know, but that gets into propaganda. Then that's my favorite thing about psychedelics is that psychedelics can train. your mind to see through the propaganda, which is part of the matrix. I don't think everything's a line. I don't think everything's an illusion, but I think there are a, there is a ton of propaganda out there and it's more effective than ever because of the internet and social media. It's, it's super easy to manipulate us today. And I think psychedelics can help see the,

the weaknesses and, you know, downfalls of the mind. That's why I love cognitive biases and things like this. I wrote a subsect not long ago about the Semmelweis reflex, which I never heard of before, which is the human tendency. I didn't know either until a few months ago. It's the human tendency to reject new scientific facts or any kind of new proven fact regardless of the proof existing.

It's just because of the truth existing. It's just because it's new and how much human beings hate change. We just dismiss stuff, you know, immediately, even though there's existing proof of it and often scientific proof. And it's just like a knee-jerk reaction of your mind to just immediately dismiss it, even though there's proof for it. And it's called the Semmelweis reflex. And that's happening a lot today in the world with science, with a certain event that happened a few years ago across the world. It's mind-blowing to me. Like, on some level, I see this shift.

happening away from marketing being manipulation to marketing being meaningful. Like people are beginning to see it. You know, and I may just back up for a minute. When we were young, there was this thing called pollution. Like there was real problems with pollution. We had to clean up streams. We had to clean it up. And then all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute.

It's this gas in the air. Actually, we're not going to talk about pollution anymore. This will move pollution over here. We'll ship it to China. But we just switched the idea of like it's not the pollution that the corporations are doing. It's the air. All these greenhouse gases in the air is the problem. That's way more easier for all these companies to deal with.

They're slight a hand with PR and propaganda, man. I mean, it's fantastic. And this is a great thing for people to know. And I'm really glad you brought up marketing because propaganda, there's three types, white, gray, and black. And it's self-explanatory. And yet everybody mostly assumes it has this connotation that propaganda is always black. No, it can be gray and white.

There are positive types of propaganda. And I think that's a really challenging thing in this space that I think about all the time. Like how does somebody use white hat techniques to market a retreat or therapy practice? Because I think this is something I was going to say earlier. We're in a really dangerous time as well because it's a perfect time for cults. Oh, my gosh. Yes. And false gods and leaders that are going to lead us astray.

So there's going to be a lot of people looking inward and looking for answers, looking for guidance, and that's going to lead to psychedelics. So how does a therapist or retreat or whoever facilitator, how do they communicate a white hat message? And I think about this all the time because it could be very easy to start sounding culty like a guru. And you don't want to do that either. And so I'm constantly thinking about this. How do you communicate these messages and these sensations and ideas and feelings to someone looking to explore their spiritual side without sounding like a total, you know, Jim Jones, you know, or my favorite was Marshall Applewhite. I wrote my master's thesis on the Heaven's Gate cult. I wrote 240 pages about Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate cult.

And I thought cults were crazy back then. No, man, like cults are crazy now because I'm just waiting one of these days. There's going to be one that pops up in the news any day now because this is the absolute right-pest time for Colts to pop up again in, you know, consciousness and public awareness. I mean, it's a perfect time for it. Okay. Like this is a, like I've been thinking about this one for a while. And this is what scares me with all these schools and some of these big companies. Like, you know, there's terms for what's happening.

And I don't like, there's something called academic shielding. What is academic shielding? Academic shielding is when you bring in a bunch of people from. big institutions with degrees and they start getting around like this thing that's spiritual. Now all of a sudden, and here's like growing up in Gen X, we like we know about MK Ultra. You know how easy it would be to take a charismatic young man that might be in trouble with the law, run them through one of these programs like the,

one of these programs, and then have all those academics down there, lend all their credibility to this young kid, bring them out, spend 20 grand on making them an influencer, and now you have psychedelics by the balls. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you have them by the balls,

and it would cost you a 30 grand. These conversations, these conversations are happening on YouTube. There's a lot of people out there that think MK Ultra never ended. And there's no proof or evidence to say yes or no. It's happening right now. Yeah. Just think about the logistics of these schools.

Like, are you kidding me? Like, it's so MK Ultra. Like, you really want someone standing around you with a clipboard, talking about dosages and just slipping in some subliminal ideas about things. Like it's it's right there. And then when the money gets involved, like the CEOs are making tons of money. They're going to find all kinds of reasons why it's not in KL.

They're going to find all kinds of reasons. All you need is a teacher in there. It's so right. Yeah. It would be really easy too to totally destroy the psychedelic revival, Renaissance. Yes. Yes.

That's exactly what I think is happening. I'm railing against it. Yeah. It's right there. It's so weird. My favorite MK. Ultra story is Ted Kaczynski. If anybody does know who Ted Kaczynski was, he was the Unabomber. And I love Uncle Ted. Of course, what he did was horrible. His crimes were horrible. Don't condone any of that. But one of the interesting things lately that's gained a lot of interest is his manifesto. His manifesto is having a moment again. because guess who was a fan of his manifesto was Luigi, Luigi Mangione.

And so this has made the Unabomber manifesto resurface again. And I read it. It actually resurfaced a few years ago through the Joe Rogan podcast. And I reread it. I was like, man, I haven't read that manifesto in years. I went and reread it. And I was like, man, dude, Uncle Ted, he was absolutely right about a lot of stuff. He had some very interesting ideas that applied to our time today.

more than ever before. It was just that the way he tried to bring attention to him was just despicable and abominable. You know, I wish he wouldn't have done what he did because the guy was brilliant. He was a child genius. He graduated high school like 14 or 15, something like that. Went to Harvard. Went to Harvard when he was like 15 or 16 years old.

And then he was when he was in Harvard, he got recruited in MK Ultra. Man, you want to talk about trauma? That guy got messed with. I think part of what he went through at Harvard. during MK Ultra was he was told every single day when he went to see his therapist, which was a CIA agent, was that whatever dreams you have, whatever ambitions you have, you can't do them.

Those are unachievable. You're stupid. Look at you. You're incapable. You have no talent. You're dumb. That's what they told him for like two or three years, among a lot of other things that we probably don't know what happened to him.

But that was one of them. Like they put him through psychic hell. And then of course he's going to turn in the Unabomber after that. You know, I mean, crazy, crazy story. On some level, that's what's been happening to a lot of people in the United States. Like that, maybe that thing was just expanded out. Like, how, you know, learned helplessness. Like, it's such an experiment in that.

And what, like, technological slavery, I think was the name of his book. And if you read it, it's so eye-opening. It's so incredible to see. what that guy saw. And it's like, like, and he's got really, really actually, wait a minute. I got a quote right here is right here. By him, by Ted, never lose hope.

Be persistent and stubborn and never give up. There are many instances in history where apparent losers suddenly turn out to be winners unexpectedly. So you should never conclude all hope is lost. I mean, dude, that is a beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful quote. I have it sitting right in front of me. I hand wrote it out.

And it's a quote from a murderer. Maybe a mass murderer. Arguably, maybe America's first terrorist or one of the first terrorists. And that's another thing that's happening today is we're having a problem sussing out the good from the bad. We're throwing a lot of the time the baby out with the bathwater because we're in this, you know, cancel culture thing where if one person does one bad thing, anything good. that they did was that's all done gone you know and i think that's something also that psychedelics can help teach us is how to to have subtlety and nuance and be able to take out the good and leave the bad behind you know and that like the ted ted kaczynski had beautiful beautiful ideas beautiful ideas

and he's got another great quote that basically is about mental health and mental illness which was that like look it's the system and the society and that's something that's something that's very dangerous in the psychedelic space today with this whole trauma boxing and healing framework or context is that, you know, some years ago, corporate America was already co-opting yoga and you could go on your lunch break and meditate or do yoga. Well, what's the implicit message with that is that the system isn't the problem. It's you. You are the problem because you are maladjusted to the system. You have to fix yourself to work in the system better. And so now that's, we're getting into dangerous territory with psychedelics with that as well.

Because there could be an implicit message that, hey, you're broken. No, the system's fine. And because that's not a conversation that happens a lot in the psychedelic space is we don't look at the system and the politics and what's creating 200 million people in America with trauma. Let's look at that because that's what Gen X did was always like give the finger to the man and punch up. You know, what's causing this crisis of trauma? Like this, in the end, psychedelic assisted therapy is just a reactive solution. It's a band-aid. We still have to find a proactive solution to what's causing all the trauma because in the end,

I think all the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is just a finger in the dike. Just a finger in the dyke. And we're not going to be able to hold back what's behind the dyke forever. We have to change the system. How do we do that? I don't know. I don't have the answers. but we have to change the system because it's horribly dysfunctional, sick, and corrupt.

But it doesn't get discussed a lot in the psychedelic. The only person that really discusses it that I know of a lot publicly is Gabboramate. He discusses it. Because it's not a single siloed conversation. It's spirituality, mental health, politics. It's all together. You can't separate those things because it's what's causing the trauma. the mental health breakdown is the society and system itself.

And that's what Ted Kaczynski brought up, what, 40, 30 years ago? It's so well said. It's so well said. And I can't help. Like there's part of me, maybe it's the Gen X part of me. It's like this is all intentional. If you look at the way in which the only reason people really, in my opinion, the rule makers or a lot of the people that are leading, not a lot of people,

but some of the people leading the charge in psychedelics, they see the money aspect in legalization. And it's like, okay, well, how, this is what they tried in the 50s. Like, how do we legalize this, centralize it, make tons of money, but not have that pesky uprising thing over there? You know, and when you see the way in which the conversations move towards trauma, it's moved into the world of politics, it's moved into all these worlds over here.

Like, you get away from it. Like, it's becoming brave new world. instead of the island. You know what I mean by that? Like it's micro dosing is like the new Prozac. Like, look, let's just take some microdose. Fuck microdosing. Like, do it, but you don't need a coach to do it.

Like, yeah, it's a great tool for you to explore. You don't need to put, you don't need to put training wheels on a tricycle. You know what I mean? Like, you don't need that. You just do it. Just go and do it. But I see the push towards this, like, let's keep it in this container over here. Like, you're not going to be able to do it.

And maybe that's the trickster divinity. And they're like, yeah, let them try. Watch this. Let them go ahead and try to do it, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sold on microdosing either, George. I never microdosed in my life. I'm all about go big a car.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I, oh, God, I saw somebody at that psychedelic conference event I went to in Mexico City last year that were all, it was one of the speakers, all pro microdosing. Oh, my God, microdosing on high, on max, full blast, everything. And I came up with this expression. I don't know if the speaker used it or if I came up with it. I say sarcastically, yeah. If you're not microdosing, you're macro working.

Because that's kind of like the thing with microdosing is it's supposed to make you a better worker. It's supposed to make you adjust to the system more. Right. You're not the problem. No, the system isn't the problem. You're the problem. So you better microdose. We got to optimize to make you a better worker.

You know, no, man. Like that's not what we learned younger when we were in, when we were, Gen Xers, we're all about tearing the system down and replacing it with a better one. And now microdosing, you better take a little something, something every few days. And then, yeah, you'll be better adjusted to the system. So, yeah, I don't, I'm not a big believer in microdosing either. But then again, you know, I don't suffer from any mental health issues or anything. Maybe it does work.

Although also, there's a lot of studies coming out saying it doesn't work for a little. lot of things that people say it does. So who knows, man? But all I can say is that I'm not a fan of microdosing. Go big, go home. But everybody can do it. They can try it. That's up to them. But we'll see, we'll see what history has to say in a few years of our microdose. Yeah. It's so exciting, man. Like this is, I feel so relieved, man. Thank you. Thank you for having the conversation with me. And like there's so many topics here that. And I think a lot of people feel like us. I think there's a lot of people like, this is all wrong. This is ridiculous. What are we doing? It's a mockery. You know, but that can't be contained for so long. And all it takes is for

people to start stepping up and talking about it. And then the army comes, man. Like, yeah, the underground is right here. It's been waiting. Yeah. And I think part of it is just the media portrayal. Yes. And that's probably likely to change because the healing narrative has been dominating. And I came up with something. Let me find the no really quick. I I get the sense that's, oh, where is it? Oh, shoot, I'm not going to be able to find it now. Where to go? Something about, oh, yeah, here it is.

Drugs and fun are for kids. Medicine and healing are for adults. You know, it's kind of feels like that. Yeah. You know, then maybe also consciousness and spirituality is for fools, you know? And we have to kind of try and realign these things. And I think that's kind of the feeling now is that, okay, medicine and healing is for the adults. So that's the push of the mainstream narrative.

Yet I think the overwhelming majority of people still using psychedelics are using them recreationally. It's young people going to festivals and stuff or that young guy on acid watching TV at home by himself. I think that's the majority of people still using psychedelics. But in the mainstream narrative, they're not portraying it as that. Right. Because the money is behind the theory. therapeutic push. Yeah, it's interesting too. And I, another, when I look at it too, like I see so many, I talk to so many cool students that are, that finally have an avenue where they can begin to

explore it. But it seems like so, like, if I could send out a message to all the people out there that are explaining, first off, thank you for running these experiments and stuff. But how much of these studies that we read about end up being theoretical footnotes for big pharma companies? You know what I mean? Like, and maybe that's because there's, there's not a whole lot of money for the kids to explore. But it's just in that same box, man. And we lionize some of these people, like, wait a minute. You're asking for big trouble, George. When am I? Bring it. Trouble. This goes back to the Semmelweis reflex and monistic idealism. This gets to be very,

very complex and complicated. So science has a lot of problems right now. And most people don't realize it in the mainstream. So one problem, is the monistic idealism that we're now using the scientific method to den a niggero burros there and then also a lot of the scientific journals have been corrupted because they're run by big farmer and so a lot of the studies that come out are total BS but now you have to like look at the footnote in the journal article to see who funded it. That's the point we're at. I mean, I've seen, there's a doctor I follow on YouTube since the beginning of the pandemic, Dr. John Campbell, the guy's brilliant. And actually, he's been working lately with David Nutt. So now there's this

interesting crossover in medicine between somebody who's to be very establishment, John Campbell, and now he's having these interesting conversations with David Nutt. And if anybody doesn't know David Nutt. He's a very well-known researcher in psychedelics. And so Dr. John Campbell talks about this sometimes. He's like, yeah, some of these very prestigious medical journals that are high profile that I formerly had a ton of respect for and never questioned, now I can't trust them. Because now I have to see who's funding the research because it's big pharma who's funding a lot of the research behind it. So now we can't even necessarily believe a journal, a peer review journal article that comes out. We can, but man, you have to be very, use a ton of discretion and read the footnotes

about who funded it. And then sometimes you're not even going to know then. You're going to have to be like, well, okay, I didn't hear of this guy or this company or this, you know, philanthropic organization. I didn't go in and study who those people are. You know, you really have to go down the rabbit hole. And so science is there's some serious challenges in science right now that psychedelics finds itself downstream of and this doesn't get without a doubt it's it's become company science you know that's a term i like to use to derail the legitimacy of it it's company science who funded that and it's so hard for people in the mainstream who are working 40 50 60 hours a week to you know you're supposed to have this trusted journal that tells you what's going on and like we saw it with covid

we see it with all the things and once you start peeling back that onion you realize the corruption has crept into everything. The money just sneaks in, okay, I'm going to write the textbook for the doctors. I'm going to write the textbooks for this. You know, the whole system is corrupt. And it just makes me think that maybe the generations, maybe all that stuff we learned as Gen X or was so that we could be here now. Maybe it's our turn to be like, look, let us show you what we learned and why we think this is wrong and why this is what. Let me tell you about this other way that happened.

and takes me back to Global Psychedelics Week, man. Like, I think that this is something that can be way more than just a week of just talking about psychedelics, but it seems like something more of like a whole new process of learning in an event where people can come and get to talk to people and have questions. Like questions are, there's a reason the question mark looks like a side, man, because you're cutting down ideas with these questions. And I think that's the best thing that kids today can do, man, is just ask questions. Like, you can find the answer. That's great, man. That's a super metaphor. This Skype and the question mark.

Yeah, that is awesome. I never thought about that before. Yeah, because I think, and this has been a theme throughout this conversation, that's one of the best things that psychedelics can teach you is to question everything. And this time that we're going through now, this time of great revealing, we're realizing we've been lied to about a lot of things. And so, and it's healthy to question, question everything, question authority. That's good.

And yeah, it's, it's dangerous times because science has become a religion. It's been replacing religion. And now we're learning that science has been corrupted big time. And that is dangerous because I still love science. I, before I got into speech and communication, I tried being a marine biologist. I've worked on human cadavers. I took a college level of human anatomy and physiology class senior year of high school. And I've worked on pro-sected cadavers.

I've touched brains. I've held human hearts in my hand. I love science. But science is a really bad place right now. And I don't know how the institution is going to recover trust because Big Pharma in corporate America has heard it badly. Man, it's so true. It's going to come from the movements, man.

It's going to come. I think psychedelics have already played such an incredible part. And I can't fathom that it's not going to continue to play the same part it played in the 60s. Like, I really feel we are in the late 50s and we are about to start seeing all kinds of new bands come out, artwork come out, festivals come out. And like, that's when the community comes out. That's when real problems begin to be solved. And when everybody's affected, all of a sudden people start coming together. They start sitting at the dinner table talking about how badly they've been screwed over for the last 50 years.

you know, and then that's exactly what the establishment is trying to stop. Like, dude, these guys are getting really close, man. I totally agree with all that. And here's one of the most important pieces of history that we can learn from and try and avoid in this moment. I actually sent off an interview, a questionnaire for Global Psychedelic Week, to Zach Leary. I didn't ask him this question, though. Maybe sometime in the future I'll ask him this one.

So for anybody that doesn't know, there was a big schism between Timothy Leary and Hunter S. Thompson. I don't know that they were personally friends ever, but of course, because they were both hippies and existed during the psychedelic era of the 1960s. They knew each other, knew each other's work. And Hunter ended up hating what Timothy Leary did with the tune in, turn on, and drop out. And I can't remember which book it was now that Hunter wrote, or, but he said something in response to Timothy Leary and the tune in, turn on, drop out, about the grim meat hook realities. And I think, I need to study this some more and research it a bit.

I think what Hunter was referring to there was, okay, look, you can all be hippies and eat mushrooms and drop acid and go be barefoot at a commune at a farm, right? But you're still going to be living underneath this system that still has a daily impact on you. You know, whether it's the political system, the financial system, there are still like methods and modes of control, power and domination that are still going to trickle down to you being barefoot every day on your commune at the farm. And you still have to try and fight against those forces. You can never totally drop out. Like you can't, okay, maybe go by and like some island in the middle of the Pacific somewhere and live there by yourself. You can do it that way.

But if you're still living in the United States, you can't totally ever disconnect from the matrix. The only way to do it is to create a new system that makes the former obsolete, which is the famous Buckminster Fuller quote. You know, so that was the kind of maybe failure or mistake of Timothy Leary was that he didn't give the solution. You know, like the solution was just to kind of become, I don't know if nihilistic's the right word, apathetic would be the best probably. Just like you don't have to play in that system, which is true. And at the same time, you still have to create that parallel system that defeats the existing ones. So I think that's the most pressing message for today is that we still have to do.

Yeah, I think that you do have to do that work. You kind of dropped out on that last part right there. But can you give us the message one more time? What do you think is the most prescient message? Just to do the work. And not just the individual work, but we have to try and create some type of new system for the new world that works in parallel to the one that's crumbling now. You know, we can't just all be apathetic dancing around barefoot on a commune. You know, we have to do our part to try in.

build a new system and there's a lot of people that discuss that outside of psychedelics how do we do that you know um some people talk about you know like if you have a community use the barter system yeah don't use dollars try and try and use anything that's like any kind of tech gigantic tech monopoly less try and use google less like i i use google everything i'm i'm imperfect but you know use other systems that aren't you know google under the google overlords You know, try and unplug as much as you can from the dominator system. You know, it's like what Terrence McKenna talked about with the dead and dying bones of the society. You know, try and find ways to just unplug from that and build something new.

And then as we build these little new pieces, it'll gain momentum and gain strength and people will come to you. And then suddenly, all of a sudden, we're going to be in a new world and look back and be like, man, I don't even recognize 2025. I don't even recognize 2020. What world was that? Yeah. We're going to look back on this time. It's like, whoa, you guys did what?

That's out of control, man. What were you guys thinking? We didn't know any better. It's so amazing to me. Exactly. I love it, man. This has been a brilliant conversation, man. I'm so stoked to get to talk to you in probably the first of many conversations.

And one more time, though, man. Oh, it's been fabulous. So much fun, man. This is so great. But everyone that's listening right now, I got them all lined up over here. Just tell me one more time where they can find you in the best spots to get at you now. If you're on LinkedIn, just find me on LinkedIn. My last name is Amazon Mary, I.E. Z's and Zebra I-O.

And then also, yeah, I write about stuff like this on Substack. And it's just, yeah, yeah, my name, Adam. dot masio at substack.com. You can find me there. And that's where I share all these kinds of spicy takes, like the old psychedelic outlaws and iconoclasts of yesteryear. And I think these conversations are super important, super needed. So thank you very much for having me on today, George.

This has been fantastic, right up my alley. Man, I love it. Thank you so much. And hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody in the comments section and everybody that hung out with us today, thank you so much for hanging out with this. Hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got.