TrueLife - Alexandra Plesner - The Ecstasy of Design

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Our guest today stands at the vibrant crossroads where the psychedelic experience meets the art of design, wielding both as tools for transformative change. Alexandra Plesner, founder of Psychedelics Design, is not just exploring but actively shaping the intersections of psychedelics, creativity, and holistic design. With a systems-thinking approach that considers every element of our increasingly complex world, she has built bridges between visionary thought and practical application, giving life to projects that resonate with a profound sense of purpose and humanity.Her journey began with the co-founding of Psilocybin San Francisco, an educational platform that, over the past two and a half years, has become a beacon of informed practices within this burgeoning field. Alexandra’s work, however, transcends traditional boundaries, combining her expansive knowledge of design theory, psychology, and mixed realities to craft futures that are not only more equitable but regenerative in nature.Alexandra’s contributions to renowned creative agencies like Normally Ltd, Method Inc, Dazed & Confused Magazine, Tank Magazine, and Karla Otto PR have made her an influential voice in the design world. She’s partnered with global giants such as The Victoria & Albert Museum, Spotify, Nike, Barclays, Puma, and Mercedes-Benz, leaving an indelible mark that marries creativity with strategy. Her work has garnered attention in top publications like Wallpaper*, Fast Company, Wired, iD Magazine, and Design Week, showcasing her ability to blend aesthetic brilliance with meaningful impact.Academically, Alexandra has deepened her craft with a Master of Arts in Design Studies from Central Saint Martins and a Master of Science in Applied Psychology from London Metropolitan University, where her exploration into virtual, augmented, and mixed reality in relation to psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy pushed the boundaries of what’s possible in mental healthcare.As a writer and thought leader, her insights have graced the pages of Psychedelics Today, Psychedelic Spotlight, Proto.Life, Women on Psychedelics, and Psychedelic Support, amplifying her mission to create a future where design and psychedelics intersect in ways that enhance our collective understanding, wellbeing, and connection to the natural world.Yet beyond the accolades and achievements, Alexandra Plesner is a creative alchemist, infusing everything she touches with artistic fairydust that transforms the ordinary into the extraordinary. Today, we dive deep into the visionary mind of someone who asks not just what design can do for psychedelics, but what psychedelics can do for design. Welcome, Alexandra Plesner.https://www.psychedelics.design/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Okay, cool. Ladies and gentlemen, our guest today stands at the vibrant crossroads, where the psychedelic experience meets the art of design, wielding both as tools for transformative change. Alexandra Plezner, founder of psychedelic design, is not just exploring, but actively shaping the intersections of psychedelics, creativity, and holistic design.

With a systems thinking approach that considers every element of our increasingly complex world, she has built bridges between visionary thought and practical application, giving life to projects that resonate with a profound sense of purpose and humanity. Her journey began with the co-founding of Scylisian San Francisco, an educational platform that over the past two and a half years has become a beacon of informed practices within this burgeoning field. Alexander's work, however, transcends traditional boundaries, combining her expansive knowledge of design, theory, psychology, and mixed realities to craft futures that are not only more equitable but regenerative in nature. Alexandra, thank you so much for being here today. Congratulations on South by Southwest. It is a pleasure to talk to you. How are you?

Oh, my God, mentioning South by Southwest. Thanks so much for having me and for this insane intro. It's such a pleasure to be here. I don't quite know what to say. I don't know if I can live up to the introduction that you just gave. But, yeah, it was quite a right. And, yeah, I'm good. I just can't believe all that happened, especially over the past months.

It's been magical, I would say. Yeah, absolutely. Psychedelic design. So for those people who may not have know exactly, maybe we could just jump into like psychedelic design. Like I've been to your website. I have spoken with the people with whom you're speaking to. And I think that you're at the forefront of launching sort of your own South by Southwest. Maybe tell people like, what is.

psychedelic design. Wow. Oh, yeah. Like, a little bit smaller. Just a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I'm a designer and I

ventured into the psychedelic space and simply wanted to understand, you know, as a designer, what can I contribute to the space? And I'm not as neuroscientist. I thought I'm just like, I have not much to offer. And really from that feeling, I was thinking,

all right. So, the second thing I was doing, I did a second master, so I already have a master in applied imagination from St. Martins. And then I thought it would be a great idea to follow. Like it was initially I really wanted to study psychology and arts. But so then I did a master and applied psychology. And I was just really intrigued to learn more about that. How do some or what psychedelics influence your cognition, your behavior, your behavior and also creative thinking, maybe problem solving and so on and so forth.

And so I just started psychedelics design basically as an artifact for my master's. Like I did that with the last master and I'm just a person who like I love academia. I love research like so much. But I also wanted to apply that to the real world somehow. And yeah, that's how it started. It's somewhere else now. But, no, and psychedelics design, I really was interested in exploring what can design do for psychedelics or for the psychedelic space. And what can psychedelics do for design, right?

So I'm totally aware this is niche, and now I have like two fields in one somewhat. And I guess I figure it out as I go along. Yeah, it probably doesn't sound too professional to say I'm winging it from day to day, but that's actually it because I'm just like, there is no path for me to follow. So I'm just moving forward. And I'm really grateful for everyone that I've been meeting along the way. And also, you know, some of the people who study I was reading when I was studying and immensely honored.

Yeah, don't quite know what to say. It's been incredible. I heard a great quote once, and what you're saying reminds me of it. It's something along the lines of, each step reveals the next step. You know what I mean? It's like as you begin moving on,

and I can't help but think of the idea of faith, maybe not faith in the religious connotation, but faith in that next step, will reveal the next step. And isn't it so true with design? Like if we just look at what you're building, it's like, okay, you've built this platform. Okay, now you're building this other piece on it.

And all these engineers are coming on board. And all these artists and craftsmen, it's like, it's for those of us watching, it's so freaking cool to watch and see what's coming on. You're bringing into the mainstream or sort of helping other people begin to see what is possible with psychedelics and design. And it's not just, you know, it's not just people doing microdosing. It's not just people with PTSD.

You are branching out into the world of like architecture and like maybe you could like, how did that happen? Like how did that next step evolve? Like what happened there? Well, I was really eager to have a first event. I just wanted to bring together initially it was planned to be just for us. Like, you know, like people that I know. And I wanted to have, like, psychonauts and designers who are not necessarily in the psychedelic space come together.

And I just wanted to see what happens. And it happened so that I was kindly supported by two people, especially, whose work I admired. So, Mikhail Rukkin, who is like an incredible artist, architect, human being. And Paul Austin, who was speaking at the Szil 7, San Francisco before. we had a conversation around psychedelics, microdosing, creativity, system change. And so I just wanted to see what happens if I bring these people together.

And usually I'm very much interested in bringing people together that might not usually, you know, be in a room together and just see how these conversations evolve. And it evolved really quickly. So I was interested after my first psilocybin, trip, I was really interested in even more so than before the impact of our environment on us,

right? But also the environment, like the impact of a designer on the environment, since we are creating our reality and since we're creating products, spaces, like urban spaces, houses, like interior, like the products we're using every day. And I just had the feeling, it was more of a gut feeling and from based on my personal experience. First, the idea, the hypothesis, then I went on to mushroom trip simply because I thought I can't be on the psilocybin platform with my friend without ever having done psilocybin. So and from there I thought if designers are taking specifically something like psilocybin that really makes you feel more in all with the world around you and might have like a whole different impact on how you see yourself sitting within nature

and what nature actually means and how you are not a part of nature but part of nature, you know. Miquel said that really nicely in his like just beautiful in his presentation as well. I think I just had the hope that if you have that innate feeling inside you, when you are sitting next time in front of your computer or in your studio and create you might have that somewhere in your subconscious to look for better alternatives than what you're used to or you might start asking questions that you have not even thought about before. I mean the simple fact that for me, I was, I'm not a big meat eater, like, or was not a big mediator, but after psilocybin, I could not eat any animal product.

I could not like on when I was coming down of the trip I could not really feel plastics or certain products. It just felt very wrong. And I just thought maybe this is a side effect that could help us design for regenerative futures, even when we might have unlearned our connection to nature. And that was way before I looked into like what psychedelic. do for creativity and how certain psychedelics might help us solve problems differently, you know, where you have sitting on a problem for weeks and months or even years and doing research and suddenly you might find new connections. It just might help you to look outside of yourself,

not only to see personal struggles and a new angle on the trauma that you went through, right, and how big it is or actually how small it is in, you know, when you have like that distance view, like that bird egg view. I was thinking maybe like there's also a way of, you know, like a little cheat maybe even, right? But if you think as children, like we have like a very unique way of solving problems because we do everything for the first time. Now when we are older, we are very energy sufficient. We are also very much relying on our networks and communities.

So we do way things and solve problems, how we have been taught to do, right? So I feel like some people stay childlike and have the curiosity. Those don't necessarily are comfortable in to the world, right? But then these are these misfits that are, you know, few in the world a little bit different. And I thought maybe with psychedelics that there is something to it, right? So it turns out there is as I was thinking deeper, but I'm really eager and exploring that more. But I'm totally aware of our, like, we just always want to optimize our productivity, how we perform, how we are seen, like how much money we make, the status where we are sitting within our systems. So that there's so much more to think about, right?

like the accessibility, the safety, the health issues, like the fact that kind of an elite of people have access to the substances that are largely illegal. Like it's, you know, there's, like it's a little bit bigger, but I'm just starting somewhere. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully learning a lot as I move on and as I move through this. So I'm really grateful for having like my first advisors before my have regular calls now who are asking difficult question who are bringing back you know to planet earth and I tend to to keep me focused but also to make me aware of like where who I am where I sit in the system and you know where the psychedelics and plant medicines grow what's the history you know like how other

communities work with it. How can I guarantee that I have certain people speak at my conferences and events? You know, how can I get like making like equality like a big topic, accessibility at the big topic. For me, the democratization of knowledge was also with Solisarra in San Francisco really important. I don't think I get it just right yet, but I have ambition. I'm a big fan too. It seems like large dose or macro dosing psychedelic trips or just altered states of awareness, be it through meditation. We are given access to like the mountaintop.

And we do have these beautiful ideas of how things can be. And it's real easy to like to stay there and be like, yeah. And like all of a sudden you surround yourself with you start thinking about all these wonderful aesthetics in this imaginative world. But you would mention that you have advisors that you speak to to kind of bring you back down to earth and they're asking you these important questions. Like, can you share with us maybe like a recent important question that you were talking about that sort of, you know, combined the big ideas with the grounding? Like maybe you could speak to us how on a question that kind of brought you back. Um, first of all, I, I, I, I, I,

I want to mention what Shalene Salazar literally said to me. I was really stuck in my own little cell of operating with like how, like, you know, like. And then me saying like, you know, this mind thinking is bullshit. You can't put the creative process into like some graphs. And then he literally said, well, that's not very psychedelic of you. And that really made me, really made me. really made me think. And I think to bring it down to Earth was more of a, like, there are a million things that I can do, right? And I'm an idea generator. You throw something

at me and my brain is already finding connections, like patterns that, you know, like, this is what I love, this is who I am. But then it's like, it might be difficult to then stay on one topic. So, for example, since psychedelics are largely illegal, and I was thinking, you know, that they might have us shift towards life-centered design, you know, that when psychedelics really might influence that we may, you know, prioritize sustainability and empathy in the way we create, that I was thinking, you know, that maybe it is going to lead designers to promote some of the things that psychedelic experiences learn or teach us in our design processes. So one question was, well, psychedelics are illegal.

So mostly, how can we eventually influence the design thinking or the design process through psychedelics without yet using psychedelics themselves? And so I came up with this idea of having sort of like a design process, a design methodology that is based on psychedelic experiences. So what psychedelics can teach us, like from interconnectedness, from an innate creativity, from breaking loose of patterns to empathy, to aiming for regeneration and not just sustainability, but literally like a coexistence between nature and humanity. So that was like one of the things where I was thinking, okay, cool, there are like several things that are very obvious, right? I'm a designer.

I can produce brand work, websites, whatever, for this. space, right? But that is also very boring and short sight in many ways, right? I mean, it's, there are so many designers who are doing this. Of course, I have an understanding of the industry and other industries, right? And I worked before with other companies, so I can bring a lot to the space. But I was actually, of course, what is more complicated? What's more complicated is really, can we have psychedelic design-inspired principles? Can we use them? what are they, how can we apply them? And then the other one is,

what do psychedelics do for problem solving and innovation? And is there a way that we can explore that? And is there a way we can open that to, you know, humans at large and not just to a few and how can we explore that? So, yeah, I mean, this is, I guess, bringing it down as well as, you know, having my first conference being, especially like two, three, four people only. So I was very lucky, very lucky that I got those speakers that spoke, right?

And here was immediately someone saying, well, it's all white middle-aged men. Or like men, like in their 30s, 40s, 50s, right? Correct. But also I didn't know too many people. I did not want to tap really into a network of Priscilla and San Francisco. Wanted to keep that also quite separate. I wanted to find new connections that might be closer to psychedelics design, creativity,

and not with a full mushroom focus. And I just had to build slow. And then with the second conference, right, that grew. And now with the third conference a bit more. So like I'm trying to have also new voices and have people who are, like, you know, like people have their one topic that they talk about, maybe two. And so I also like those people that talk about, like Paul,

about microdosing, maybe mention sustainability, system thinking, system change, creativity, problem solving, and share their thoughts on that. Or have Dennis Walker share his thoughts in perception of the media's influence on how we see psychedelics and how we perceive reality and even versa, vice versa. So I think like this is so super interesting and like there's so many things I want to do like this time like at the next conference as well. Like I have only women speak about empathic design and they never spoke about that before. And I have not like I kind of create

conversations that I would have loved to hear so much to my non-existent ego death. But I'm really excited about it's new. So I don't know what happens, right? Like, I really just don't know. So it might be like a total shit shits throw. And so people when they attend the conference, they don't know what's going to happen because I don't know what's going to happen. I just hope for the best. But like this is a great conversation to have. And so they're like, yeah, there are many many like that. And so I think. this is what they're helping me. You know, like they're pointing out things that are maybe not quite right,

as well as finding a voice, like a bit more critical voice, you know, psychedelics or not all psychedelics are for everyone at all times. Yeah. I love it. I do think so. I do think it creates, when you start getting individuals in the room that are very passionate about perhaps a potential one point, and they talk with someone else who has another point,

It's almost like neuroplasticity on a human connection level. Right? You're trying to make these new connections and the default network of old patterns and ideas it turned off. And now you have these people together that are like, hey, what if we process this in Broca's area? Hey, what if we do with the visual cortex over here? You know? Yeah, I mean, yeah.

I mean, for me, it's like it's exactly that. And I'm really curious what's going to happen. And I'm really excited that there are so many interesting. in having these conversations. Right? I thought I won't get a single person want to speak, frankly. And now I have to say no to people. And I'm, yeah, as you can see,

I have not been very successful saying no to many people because I have so many speakers. I don't even know how many speakers I have. I'm going to post today probably like some more. And I still speak to two. And I'm trying to be like, where can I squeat you guys in? because it's so cool. I want you to speak to.

But I'm actually having one talk. I just pulled up some really sure. It's like neuroplasticity and innovation and really exploring creative problem solving and what Dr. Bruce Damer called the fourth wave of psychedelics. And I was so fortunate to be having a conversation with him and also Matt from minds. And eventually I managed to edit it.

that podcast and launched it. It's going to be like a two-hour conversation. It's like it's mind-blowing to speak with fellow creatives and designers. I love this conversation so much. I learn so much and I feel so inspired. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just incredible. I like to have him with Manish Gurin and also Stephanie Carson Abrams talk about that, like the three of them together. I was just like imagine them being in one room. Have you found some techniques that help, sometimes it's difficult to have three really incredible people that are really have their own unique ideas on stuff. Like how do you facilitate that conversation? Like how do you get them to begin sharing ideas? Does it kind of

happen naturally or are there some ways that you can help foster that? discussion between them? Like, how does that work? I mean, what I do do is I introduce them to each other before the conference. So I'm trying to get them all on a call either with me or without me, whatever they want, just so they connect. But frankly, as I said, I wing it. I don't want to overcraft things. Like with other conferences and St.o Saiva in San Francisco,

because it was really important that we bring the education across in a very specific. way and it like we needed them to talk about exactly what we needed them to talk about so it was very it was very like even i would say micromanaged like down to the tea you know what they say and how they say it but um with this conversation it's a bit more of the wild west version of the conference right so yeah i'm just going to let them talk but with every like there is also no moderation much but Floresa from Blossom, who is doing the event series with me, like kudos to his calm and patience. I'm so grateful for him in so many ways.

Like he's just an incredible person. So if you guys don't know him yet, check out Blossom. It's like it was like also the website which I used to pull a lot of information because you can actually search for keywords like psychedelics and creativity. But yeah, we are in the background. And they initially get released to just have the conversation. And usually what just happens with minds like that, right? I don't want this curated.

And they're never going to be stuck. But we would be there to ask a few questions if they would get stuck. And we are on it and listening to the conversation. And if somebody is really going to be leading the conversation and then their three others are unable to say a word, then we're just going to shift that. a little bit, right? But that's all we want to do. So it's like, yeah, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be perfect. It's so much better to have the conversation flow in a way that is natural. Because sometimes what happens is a conference is that if you do have a moderator, it's hard.

It's like a moderator having four individual conversations instead of one giant group conversation where ideas are free flowing and being passed to one another. It's a real art form. And I can't, I think that you're doing it the right way. I think that that's the best way to get it done is to have those ideas just sort of fall out of the imagination and have people get to hold on to them and look at them and hold them up to the light. And it's, it's amazing to me. I'm super thankful for it. And another thing that I tried last time, that's already in July, which I was trying this time even more so, was to have the, like, create the conversation. topics and the flow a little bit like a psychedelic journey.

So we're starting a little bit more easy, right, and soft. And then we have like more peaking conversations are more challenging maybe and challenging the norm. And then also like, I look at it, then it's more, well, okay, we kind of close with a banger, but then it's like really about harmonizing, you know, psychology, like psychedelics, nature and technology. And then we have like, a conversation around system change, because this is also where you get to after a trip is a little bit, okay, you suddenly have this awareness of how you sit in a system and you're trying to figure out how to make it back to normal

realities, right? And so I thought this is nice. And then we have a panel conference. And then we have a panel conversation where everybody, like that's what I loved to, and I wanted to do it from the one of our conference series. I have like a panel discussion in the end where all the speakers come together or actually those who have time and eventually one or two more people and eventually like we have audience questions and then they talk to whatever was was the most important topic to them on the day because as it turns out everybody somewhat naturally like when you are in a group circle, like, of people, like in the therapy session or settings, right? Or not therapy, you know, like, literally when you speak, like, I had like a women's retreat

experience with women on psychedelics. And it was really interesting. And they told me that this happens a lot, like they being like Tien and Jessica, who are the founders of women in psychedelics, that when a group of women comes together like that, it seems everybody suddenly has like a tendency towards like one topic that then becomes more like it's an omnipresent and that's very interesting how this seems to naturally align and that was the same thing with the conferences so far so again like for me this panel is like a circle of all the speakers where we can close to get closer to a topic that was important to them and we might or might not have a meditation towards the end where nobody's going to say anything

because the conferences are also very exhausting for everyone also for the listeners because the topics aren't easy you know and I hope every single topic is going to be engaging and something new and fresh right um and something deeper like the people that I have there I know them all and they all have the tendency to ask difficult questions like they are all very critical minds and very creative minds

and have such a vast range of experience that they bring with them so it's not going to be an easy walk right yeah you're such a design like it's so wonderful to me to get to hear like the innate ability to design You would mention, like, I kind of want the, I kind of want the conference to flow like a psychedelic trip.

Like, you're already, are you sure enough math and applied linguistics? Like, you know what I think of? You know what makes me think of? Like, they say, I remember when I was younger, it was like, okay, take your first hit of acid right when Allison Wonderlanden comes on and then the flow through the movie. Or you can listen to Jefferson Airplane that song. Oh, my. Oh, Jefferson Airplane. Oh, love.

It's beautiful, though. it should be like that. I almost think that, I probably shouldn't say, let me, let me, I have a question here. I have a couple of questions that kind of came up from my audience previously. And let me just get some out here so that they feel as if they get to be part of this conversation well. In what ways do you think the psychedelic experience might unlock new dimensions of design thinking, challenging the constraints of conventional creativity? I don't think creativity can be constrained to start with. I would like to challenge that.

And then design thinking, it's a process that has been developed, right? To make, we have the tendency to do that as creatives, as designers, as business people who were, you know, like the idea of design thinking. Let me just have a thing. I just want to quote that if I find it. Yeah. But let's just see. I would say, since we grew up as children and go through certain experiences in our lives, and that already starts by going to kindergarten and school,

we learn ways how we deal with the world and how we deal with certain situations. So creativity and design is not necessarily, or like, you know, art, it's not necessarily a, a free spirited way of doing things because we learn this is how you paint certain things, you know, like this is how you draw, this is how you solve certain

problems, right? This is like, this is very put the milk in the fridge, right? And when you look at children, it's their wild imagination and their, I can do this and then they try to figure out a way until some grown-up or some school system or teacher tells them this is not the way

or they should not be dressing like that because they might get bullied because other kids learned that this is not the way in their system or in their society, right? So you start to limit yourself. And I think, and not only that, right, it's also then like the health, like, you know, so much, like it's just an individual is just like it's so different from person to person. But if you are able to free yourself from that, from those limitations, from what your parents told you, what you learned about or you thought you learned about yourself at school, like the picture you have of yourself, the picture half of the world, right? I mean, it starts with small things like even like culturally. And I know.

But in Europe, for example, how. we grew up in all these different countries. The culture is so, so different. And when, like, even, like, how we put tiles on the wall, like, the way, like, the grid is, like, the growth, how do you say, like, the thing between the tiles? Yeah, the ground. You can tell where, where, you know, who put that together, if it was, like, Portuguese system or if it was English or German or Italian, right?

Also, how the tiles are painted, like, all of this. And then it's also just things that we get told from our parents. Like when you brush your teeth, do you turn the water off or do you let it run? Right. And I had a discussion with a friend from Italy with whom I was traveling and she let the water run while brushing her teeth and washing her water. So it was running, running, running. And I asked her why she's not turning it off. And she was just like, well, I have to turn it on anyway again.

Yeah. But meanwhile, you can preserve some water. She's like, yeah, but if you're not in the desert, we have enough water. I'm like, but that's not the point, right? It's like, but I think maybe it helps us get out of how we grew up, right? Right. And suddenly you immediately feel, oh, water, I should be really grateful for what water does. Like, you know, my body is water.

Like, not many people have access to water that has drinking quality. Like, you can't just get it out of the tap at any time. And maybe that makes you then think, huh, you know, like this is like I don't take this for granted anymore. And maybe then you're thinking, okay, when I design this, how can I design it better? For example, I was just going for a walk around the favorite lake and I was sitting down and there was these filters of cigarettes on the floor. And it's like, first of all, I'm like, well, you know, why would you go smoke cigarettes and you go for a walk to pour fresh air? But anyway, I was just like there and I was like, why would, like, and these are also people that then complain that it's 30. It's like, in a million years, it would never occur to me to throw chewing gum on the street or like the cigarette filter on the street.

And like, but people don't even know or think, like they have not been even educated sometimes, like what this does to the environment. They haven't thought about it. But then maybe they think about it. But not only that, maybe the person who is making those filters might come up with an idea or like the companies will be forward. to maybe from systems and people think like asking for it or maybe designing filters for cigarettes that are not negatively impacting our environment. It's not just you can't just put the responsibility on the user, right? And I think as designers we have the responsibility to think about these things and try to

find solutions. But of course this is not that easy. And it's, you know, of course, you know, you still need to answer to you. your boss and you can't just say I'm not doing this anymore. I'm doing it that way. Like three times more expensive, but who cares, right? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult question to answer in one sentence.

And anyway, as you know now, not good in answering questions in one sentence. No, it's beautiful. It's a wonderful answer. Yeah, but what I said before is about this idea of life-centered design. So I think maybe design thinking is very logical, I think. I think. And people build a whole system around that human-centered design approach and that human-centered design methodology. But maybe we can now think more of a life-centered design methodologies, right?

Where maybe the process is similar. And like, you know, it's all about just research, inspiration, then the iteration, then the iteration, then you prototype, and then you test. I mean, that, you know, I don't think that would need a decision. system for any any designer like that's just kind of what you do right if an idea you research you build something you keep researching you test it you alterate it like that's just a normal design process but maybe you can bring other aspects to it you know and so i'm just starting to build that and by having conversations with others it's like and what i learned at my first university was i mean i'm I was a child like that, always asking questions, always.

And you know what? You get the answer from grownups because we've always done it that way, because it's always been that way. It's like, why? So the answer was, you know, because I said so. And that's not, you know. And at St. Markians, at my course, we always had to frame questions. And that's also how psychedelic design started.

And these questions are always changing. And I think that's hopefully a healthy way of doing it. We'll see how it turns out. Yeah. It's, I can't help but see the, the relationship with uncertainty and the ineffable. Like in a psychedelic journey, like sometimes you have this moment of clarity, you know, but you can't speak it. Like, you can't put it into words. Like, that's it. I forgot what it was. You know what I mean? Like, you can't, like, it's still there.

And maybe those three-dimensional Mandela's, or maybe those objects that we see are a language to hold space in our mind, to hold that idea space or something like that. But it sounds to me like we are coming upon a change in consciousness or a change in design thinking that doesn't really have a linguistic pathway. Like, we're not sure how to create these giant changes that are contagious between the user, the end user and the boss. We're not sure how to bridge this gap between productivity, profitability,

and environmentally safe. I think we're moving in that direction. Do you see this sort of design change or this spot that we're in right now? Maybe this fourth wave of psychedelics as being like a new opening to create or a linguistic jump or something along those lines. Are we moving into a new paradigm where we can make these changes? well I do hope so but I'm also very much a romantic I do have to confess I tend to romantic so from that point of view and that you know the fairy tales I grew up with that would be

wonderful right yeah but then I also see humans make the same mistakes over history so I mean that's just also part of the learning process and you can't just arrive at that big change right like it's like small steps over then eventually lead to big epiphanies or big change, right? So it's like, patterns like break maybe from one day to the next, but then new behavior and new ways of thinking and doing need to be implemented. That's why integration coaching is such a big topic and so important.

It's not going to be a process of, you know, two, three days. Like I'm getting out of the psychedelic experience, and now I know it all. It also depends on what experience, as I said before, right? and why you do it, how you do it, when you do it, with whom you do it. There's so much, you know. But I would encourage, I really like to encourage actually these conversations also with other creatives and designers as much as we can to see if we can shift something and to just keep

iterating their design principles that I'm trying to birth here. There's like one company and person that I admire like the most. for years. I'm sure you heard of her as like Mary Oxman. And she had like big influence on me, like the CREP cycle of Creativity. It's like, and also like the new products that they just launching like from Eden. Like I really love the idea of like that it was very academic and very research heavy. Now they have been moving into, and I hope I don't say, like, I hope, I don't do her justice with my words at all, I would say. But not just the idea, ideation of what is possible and then applying these wild ideas to some material testing,

but now also making like small scale new systems and test that and see, And if that's functioning, you could apply that to larger scale. And that's just what I'm talking about also. It's like really designing with nature. Like nature is just another designer sitting in the room with you. Yeah. Got what it was called. I was trying to look it up, but never mind.

But this is just, I think, something that we need to learn and understand. Also, you know, like we are using emails. We're using Instagram. from like as startups and founders, content creators, marketers, brand marketers, designers, there's so much time and effort spent in generating ideas, the content, and having an artist work on it or graphic designer mostly but now also replaced by mid-journeys, image where you can see them everywhere popping up. And then you load it into the system that exists.

Instagram we are using it as well. it's still like a nice tool to, you know, like reach a certain audience and build a certain community and show, show if you work and see if it resonates, what resonates, what doesn't, you know. But the vast amounts of energy that these systems that we created to make our lives comfortable use, like largely overlooked, we don't think about it, we don't know it. When we know it, we don't know what to do about it or against it. So I think, yeah, sure this is going to help. I hope it does. I don't know. I will know in a few years if I arrive at something that is going to be meaningful and having meaningful impact. I think you're already pulling up to the

house of meaningfulness. Like you've already brought all these people and there's all these bridges coming together and these new ideas where if you can just shift something small, it can have large repercussions later in life. It's like that stone in the pond, right? Sometimes just changing a view of something can have a radical effect on that. Which brings me to another question from one of our listeners is, how can systems thinking, when combined with psychedelics, help us reimagine the relationship between the natural world and the human-made environments?

Love that. It's a beautiful question, which hopefully gets a few more, like, incredible souls talk about that at the events. Like, those people should definitely this fit. Yeah. Again, I talked with Rad Zaraj about that as well. He's one of the advisors. I'm so grateful for him. It's like him. When we create anything, we create everything from within the box that we're sitting in, right? So it's going to be very difficult to design something new while we are still where we are. So we got to look out of this box to get it. little bit of an idea what else could be done, right? And then start to iterate prototype and test out here. But then you still need to be able to communicate these wild ideas and things that you

create to the rest of the world that is in that bubble. And it's just not only one bubble. They're like several bubbles for cultures, you know, and so on and so for countries, cultures, all of that. So everywhere it's just going to be like having like a case, sneak peek out of that box trying to do something new and fresh but the problem is also when you do that you might not have the audience yet so there's always a constant communication between between the two so that's why i'm also saying it is a process that is going to be having impact over time as with all the new ideas all the new ideas eventually have been born too early maybe sometimes you know so um look at neona da Vinci what he was able to

imagine and engineer, at least in theory, but like no way people would have been able to apply that. If you just think of the idea of women being allowed to vote that was so alien for so many people that women are humans as well. And for us, this is just so normal, but for other cultures it still might not be that case, right? like so you know and I hope that the more some people experience psychedelics the more new ideas have a space to grow somewhat but then I also learned that yeah again you know like this like I'm hopeful that this is not going to be only accessible for a certain elite but you know, psychedelics are able to, like, make things stronger, the good and the bad. So when we think of, especially like psilocybin, for example, being non-specific amplifiers. And humans are good and bad.

Like, there's not going to be, like, we all take psychedelics and we all just going to amplify the good. That's just not going to happen. So I'm a little bit thinking also, hmm, you know, what if we just bring everything by accident to the extreme, the good and the bad? So like it's all about the balance yet again. So, yeah.

Unfortunately. Like narcissism is not going to be cured by somebody taking a bunch of psychedelics. On the contrary, like some dark personality traits. are just going to be emphasized eventually. Maybe not, but for some people, yes, they are. You know, so that's why, like, yeah, these are super powerful tools.

Not all of them, you know, equal, but I think we just need to not just experiment widely and just put all our hope into one thing, just one of many. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's beautifully said. I sometimes when I think about, you know, you spoke about some of the great designers of the past being way ahead of their time or ideas being born too early. I can't help but see the metaphor of like a seed or a flower. Like on some level, do we do we just need time?

Like if you look at this giant class of like a boomer generation who are still hold a lot of power and a lot of sway, you know, these are the same people that hold me. Hey, do it because I told you so. Hey, this is, we have to do these reasons because that's what I was taught. Is it like a flower? And like, you just have to wait for August 23rd at 2.34 p.m. When the sun is ripe for the flower to fold open. Like, do we have to just wait for our species to mature?

Like maybe some of the boomers who are knocking on the mortality experience. Like maybe they, their ideas fall away with them when they move on to whatever comes next. And then these new ideas can be born. Everybody can learn all the time. Like, my dad was significantly older than my mom as well. And he had like certain few points on the world until we had a few more conversation. And he changed some of the ways. Like he was thinking and perceiving the world, right?

Right. And I don't think it's just going to be falling away. But I also don't think there is a certain time of the day where everything is going to blossom. But I think maybe some lucky accident happens. And instead of like those 10 flowers around that one flower being like, what the hell are you doing here? One of them will be saying, no, actually, I quite like that. And then eventually some of the others going to risk a second book and might like that too. I don't know if that makes sense.

But you know, I think and so slowly but truly this is just how things changed, you know. I'm sure people have been thinking about the first phones, something very alien, and the first electric light must have been really weird. I'm sure not everybody thought this is a great thing. Yeah. Right? And again, it was only like for a few that then have been able to increase their productivity and have been able to work and do things also when others were still sitting in the dark

because they couldn't even afford a can. handle. So I think this is just something to compare with innovations that happened before and tools humanity used and produced before in some way. Yeah. That's why I love like also these like when I hear of, you know, like conferences and retreats that in the in the psych space where you can buy a ticket forward or you know like you can you get like the retreat visit gifted but you have enough money to be. like, okay, I'm just going to buy somebody whom I don't know. They're like the chance to go on this retreat eventually, right? Or go to ensure that therapy. It's like when you go into a cafe and you see there is somebody. I was like, of course, a personal story.

But you hear that there is a person who, you know, the gentleman who always comes to that cafe because he's a part, he lives in that street in San Francisco for like since 1962. too. And he can't quite afford the heating. His flat is really small. So he hangs out in this cafe all the time. And then you hear about that and he just paid 20 coffees forward. So for the next 20 days, this guy has his coffee on you. Don't know. You know, like small things sometimes can help. I don't know. It's just a thought. And I love when I hear that people do that, you know, like when. There are scholarships available. And I think this is something where the psychedelic space especially can show what also unity over competition,

for example, looks like or like helping each other out. And I think as far as I experienced it now, that's very much the case. And I think there's absolutely beautiful how people support each other and build each other up, rather than tear each other down. Yeah, me too. I think it's, I'm hopeful it's contagious. I'm hopeful it becomes as contagious as a, as a contagious.

I don't know, I hope it becomes contagious because I think it's something that can obviously make the world better, right? Look at the global psychedelic society and what they have been doing and how they're helping now, societies around the world to be like, okay, you want to do this? This is how we did it. You know, we can show you if you like and maybe some of that is useful for you. like this is a really beautiful way like I mean we could do that on a bigger scale for other systems and other things as well

like one country really figured out a good way of you know reusing water or you know like dealing with certain like with trash or so and so like other cities and countries can take a pee get an explanation how they done it and then it both fit I don't know it's it's wonderful like what do you think makes an idea contagious

Is it like a perceived idea of success or like what is it that makes the ideas contagious? It's communication a lot. So I think I should talk with Dennis about that and it's Walker a lot. Or Jennifer Chessig. Yes. Or yeah, or Zoe Wilder. But I think they can tell you a big deal about how our opinions have formed and how ideas become contagious. It's sadly a lot to do also with like, you know, we can read in history

around marketing about propaganda in many ways, right? Yeah, but I think this is how things, how we change narratives and how it might, you know, are the better or the worse. Right. Here's another question coming in. It says, in what ways might augmented and virtual reality combine with psychedelics, create new pathways for things. therapeutic experiences, art, or even education. Could this be the future of immersive healing and learning? Wow. Okay, I'm just going to say a few sentence to that, but in fact, I could talk for hours on that.

That's exactly, like, that's exactly the subject of my master's thesis. Yeah, imagine that. So whoever wants to talk more about that, like, but also, again, it's probably not me. It's probably people like, you know, I can ask a secula, like, they're doing that on a daily base. I just was interested. But yes, I think XR technologies are super interesting. And as technologies evolve,

this is definitely going to be the case. And I'm super excited. Like, I love that shit. I don't want to go too deep into that. But for sure, because if you see how already virtual reality experiences, have been seen to help with certain situations and fears, for example, and the technology isn't even that great yet, right? But again, it's as exciting as it's dangerous to alter with the mind like that.

But of course, I'm super interested in exploring that more. I was mostly interested in to understand if we could bring nature to those who are not able to access nature through, you know, these experiences into the room. But I was also interested in in the idea how alien it sometimes feel as if you, as a patient, walk into a room to your therapist and have conversations even after a psychedelic experience, right? I'm not so sure about applying these technologies during a psychedelic trip, but maybe before they come down and maybe afterwards. Because, you know, think about you could, for example, go into that room and you can invite the therapist to come into your space, makes you already feel safer.

And I had the thought that maybe we can bring nature around you in any space, like wherever you are. So it's going to have security. significant impact and it's going to make it accessible for sure to people that otherwise might not have their availability. I think it also might make it more affordable to some. So very excited to see what's like new in that space. But yeah, I think great conversations to have. In art, of course, because art doesn't need to function.

So at the forefront, you can just experiment, bring your ideas out there into the wild and see what happens. You know, I'm excited to see what's new in XR and what people showcase also at South by Southwesternix next year. Really excited. Yeah, we haven't really talked about that a whole lot. You have a, you had a whole amazing team of people are going out.

I think you and Dennis and Caesar, and there's another phenomenal designer whose name is currently escaping. Carly. Thank you so much. Carly Dutch Green. Incredible individual. Yeah. So how did that come together? Maybe you can just shine some light on that.

I don't know. It just naturally came together. No, like as I said before, I invited Dennis to talk about the influence of media on us and our opinions. It's like something that I looked into extensively myself through some experiences with my old. with the old design agency normally that I worked for based on London. And we had conversations also Carly and myself, with Caesar, simply sometimes like two of us, but not ever all of us, about how design and media and visual design, like actually what you just ask or your audience asked, how we communicate ideas,

how we influence opinions and so on and so forth. And so it was actually Carly who took the lead because she and I wanted to apply to speak together. As we did before, we were like our skills that really balances each other out and also our personalities quite nicely. And so I was like, yeah, and she's like, okay, why we are not going to talk with, you know, Dennis and Cesar, are you up for it? I was like, okay. And this is like, this is literally how it went. Yeah. And fortunately, we got picked.

And I actually have to say, I'm honored that I will be speaking another time, like a second time. We've shown more from psychedelics today about psychedelics, design, and innovation, especially in regards to regenerative futures. and designing better futures. Yeah. And I can't fail out because Carly's going to find me.

Yeah. It's going to be a wild ride. You're going to have a lot of fun. And I look forward to it. I know other people are looking forward to. Thank you. It should be an interesting time. not only for you to have the discussions in front of the panel, in front of the group of people,

but I bet you stumble upon some amazing conversations behind the scenes as well. For sure. Yeah. Like I'm always scared about these get-togethers, you know, like so many people, so many conversations, but once I start talking about design or creativity or any of these things or technologies and nature or art, I forget about my fears. Yeah. Thank you for your kind words. and your encouragement all the time.

It's been like, yeah, it's really, I really appreciate that. You know, when I'm not sure, not certain, or like, oh, what are you doing? And then someone like you come along and you're like, you mentioned on LinkedIn like, hey, you know, like Alex just did it. And I was like, oh my God, but okay, yeah, I keep going. Yeah. So thank you. Of course. sometimes it's, it's, I heard another great quote that was something along the lines of,

and I should know the person that said it, but it's, what an incredible gift it is to get to see people the way others see us. You know, sometimes we need that. Sometimes we lose a little bit of faith in ourselves and we need a friend or we need someone who may see things differently to be like, look at how amazing this is. And it sort of shines a shimmer on something maybe you didn't see before. Like, look at that. Oh, yeah, I never saw that reflection or yeah. You know, it just kind of reevaluates or helps you re it just kind of helps you understand how the world may see it and it gives you that little push that you need to to shine bright out there I think again it's it's the outside perspective right I know right it helps yeah yeah I have not quite that just like I call it called me

I think they spoke yesterday and she was like so how are you feeling now Alex I'm like I don't know it hasn't you know like the same has not how do you say that settled yeah basically yeah i don't think you want it to settle i think you want those little gold flakes to be flying around in there you know what i mean to be like dazzling and like you may have to call an audible at the last minute and change out a few words and like it's going to be those words yeah yeah no i'm i'm excited and like every day working on this project has been and I'm working on it every single day like there has not been one day where I did not do it like even when I say I didn't do it and I still end up at least for an hour or two and it's been a yeah it's very fulfilling it's a hobby at the moment

but it's great yeah I'm I'm grateful that I can do that that I found something that is so aligned with where I'm yeah and I'm grateful you're doing it too I think it helps like it it's and it gives me some to look forward I love to see all the people coming I love to see all the things that are setting up I love to I love to see all the conversations that are happening I know it's not just me it's people in my audience it's people that I talk to and it's I'm glad that you have chosen to dedicate so much passion to it because it it shows and it helps and maybe that's what makes ideas contagious is that that particular aspect of it and maybe too yeah somebody loving something and so they just do it for the sake of doing it that's what like initially somebody asked me why did I do psychedelic design I said well because

I felt inspired to do so like there was just no real reasoning behind it from this get-go which just just felt bright um yeah also for next year I mean I just started can I mention the design of words yeah of course you're kidding mention it all? Because it was a bit of a bummer with everything that went down in August, and I just wanted to do a design award anyway, because I dreamt up the idea of the mushroom of the year award, just because I liked the sound of it. And so I called into life a design award only for the psychedelic space, where, of course, most is not psychedelic legal or not even psychedelic, even at all. But I just

really curious to see who applies and what projects will be shown and I have like incredible judges again to to help me out and to make like they make the decisions I'm not going to make the decisions like we're going to choose free finalists like or they choose them I will communicate them through psychedelics design and then the audience is going to choose the winner so this is going to be really exciting for next year and I'm glad to already start the year. year with something, at least for me and I hope for some people in the industry as well, if something fun and exciting and hopefully also affordable for most. And if I have to gift a million applications, then so be it.

You know, and then everybody just gets a nice little printout instead of an award object. But it's just really hopefully something that inspires everyone around me and people around to just celebrate creativity and innovation. also in the space. Because so many times we see a startup and everything looks great, but nobody thinks about that graphic designer that's set there for hours on end and weeks to come up with that idea and with those visuals,

for example, or to design the space and not even to talk about the years of education and experience that went before they were able to birth that. And so I really hope that some companies will apply and give credit to that. to the designers who did the work or the creatives, but also the founders who came up with ideas, but also students who have a concept,

but maybe not the funding yet to make that into a reality, but I hope that maybe if the concept, like somebody shines a light on the concept, they might be able to get the funding to make it into reality or whatever, you know. Who knows? Yeah. I think it's beautiful.

And there's a lot of different categories you have for awards too. Some categories that people may not think, but like it's such a great, way to sort of raise a flag for people to see each other or raise their hands. Yes, exactly. I hope so. Yeah.

Yeah. And I love the graphic design I did for that. I have to say that I'm really, it's so rare that I'm in love with something that I design. And of course, I find a million small mistakes, right, that the date is not properly aligned with the letter that came before. Yeah, like, I have a friend and I was like, oh, look at that. and she's like, yeah, but can you see that? I'm like, I know.

I know. I know. I, you know. Just tell them. I meant to do that. That's all that's supposed to be there. You know, people know me. And others designers can see that corning bullshit that I was pulling out there.

I was like, yeah. But overall, with the distance, you know, from the, you know, distant point of view, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some other particular awards that you're excited for? Obviously graphic design, but I think you have one for architecture. I think you have a lot of cool different designs that people may not be aware.

Maybe you can just talk about a few other ones that you're excited about. Let me look them up. Yeah, please. No, I mean, I was trying to make like not too many categories. And I had helped there with some of the judges already because I have like a group of judges that will not look at specific categories, but all the entry applications overall. So, you know, like there is not somebody able to move forward with the application who maybe should not be, you know, like who did something wrong or, you know, this wrongdoing or, you know, does something illegal, you know, like not gray scale. very illegal. And so I thought from different categories, like one is just very clear, like, we shall design and branding. So I put that into one category because the space is really small.

And then storytelling. So that could be newsletter. That could be a great article written, but also a book, you know, so I want to see that a little bit more broader, but also how maybe an organization is telling the story of a certain psychedelic, like an educational institution and products and services. And I think I'm still also feeling like I'm educating, because I'm not speaking to designers, designers all the time here, right? So I think the challenge for me is that I'm speaking to people who take psychedelics and also people who have never taken psychedelics to designers, but also marketers, founders who don't speak a design language.

So when I talk about service design, interaction design, UX, UI, I know all the different nuances, but to a founder, it's a web designer or, you know, it's like a graphic designer. And branding or brand identity or icon design or typography is all one. So I'm like having to, and I hope it's understandable to most. But I have like products, which is like the actual product. It could be digital or physical, but also service, which is a service office. which is like integration coaching, for example, you know, or like, you know, things like that, like a service is also like a design service, a service how people move through an app, for example,

you know, like it's, for example, you don't just buy the product, but there is a service integrated that makes the product accessible and understandable and so on and so forth. Then education and community impact, which I think is super important for the industry and for everyone out there. Education first in so many ways. And audio experience, of course, music and sound and how it influences our experiences, right, but also podcasts are something also maybe more experimental. And then as you mentioned, architecture and space. Because how do we design retreat centers, clinics, therapy centers, like And but also, as we spoke about, in that category,

it was to put VR, AR, XR, like spaces that are not our common reality. So it's just, it's very broad. And then I put, because there are always things that don't fit anywhere else, I put experimental up there. You might have a crazy idea that doesn't fit anywhere. I still want it to be able to be seen and shown. And then I have the mushroom of the year. which will be nomination only.

So you can't apply for the mushroom of the year. Like I will foster that people can be nominated next year. So this is like without an application free fee and people can just be nominated. And some person who did something extraordinary will win. And I do hope to see a lot of voices that are not the voice that you always see in here. Like, you know, like have like a great mix of people.

And so far I have not. announced the awards, but you have not done much communication around it. And still, I have a few applications. And it's a really interesting mix of companies and individuals and also a handful of students. Because I had like a free day for student applications. I had a free day for startups. So yeah. Yeah.

I think that's unique too to see sort of a student competing with a large corporation. You know, like, that's such a beautiful way to level the playing field and garner respect among the different divisions that are out there. You know what I mean? Like, both people can look at that and be like, that's amazing. That's amazing. You know, it's sort of bringing us together in a way that's scientific and spiritual. Yeah, I first thought maybe we do like a student category, but then I thought, yeah, everything is new and innovative in that space. Right, right.

So why? do we need to put students in an extra category just because they might have looked at that for three weeks but maybe in those three weeks with what they know before like who they were before that idea is just so brilliant so it can't so easily compete with somebody else who has been in industry for 10 years you know compares to people are like okay who are you because you only took psychedelics for one year and I have been in the space for 10 years it's also something you know that I have to face and that others face in that industry too and like both have their relevance.

You know, and so when you bring that together, I think that you can create something better. Yeah. Like if you, you know, forecast are hard, especially forecast about the future. However, do you see the potential for like some incubators or some online classes or maybe some partnerships down the line with psychedelic design and people that sort of want to be around in that area? Yeah. Okay, imagine that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, have we had like a few conversations along those lines already and partnerships and collaborations? Right. Yeah, very excited to explore and see what actually is going to be birth next year from all the ideas. So again, trying to keep it simple. Right.

But yeah, as well as design collaborations. I'm very excited to actually do some design collaborations and maybe exhibitions and showcases with other companies in the space but also outside of the space right? Yeah, of course. Just move things around and as I said like spread the ideas. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, very excited about that.

And so we'll see. I keep you posted. Yeah, let me know. Let me know. Alexander, you've been incredibly gracious with all of your time today. I'm super thankful to get to speak to you and it's always an engaging, fun, I always feel like I get to learn more. And I'm really excited about the conference. And I, before, maybe we could just, I don't even know if we told the dates to the people. Have you and I

been having such a cool conversation? Like, where can they still find tickets? Like, maybe just let's talk about that for a moment before we close out. Good point. I don't think you mentioned it. It's on the 11th of December and it starts in the morning, PST time. And yet you can find the tickets on psychedelics.com design. Right. So that's a website. I mean, buy that. I sell it through Event Pride because it's easy. And yeah, tickets are still available. They're $28.

I mean, I have supported tickets, but this is just a, let's cover the basic cost idea. And yeah, there's just not much to say the same with the awards. Awards is ongoing applications are still open until the 17th

of February. And also people can't find all the details on the website and can apply through the website. And there is now an early bird until the 16th of November. But again, as I said, if anybody can't afford neither, they can just contact me. And then I can see what I can do, of course, even though we don't have like an official big scholarship system because you're tiny. So, but everybody can just join in.

You know, why not? Yeah. Yeah, I hope everybody goes down and, you know, just some of the speakers in the same room together, I think is worth it. Like, there's so much cool conversation that's going to happen from there. And I think it'll be something that people maybe in the next generation can look back to and be like, oh, let's listen to this like five years ago. Oh, my God, can you imagine? Yeah, I totally can. I'm definitely not even listening to this podcast.

It's just not going to happen. I don't want to know what I said. No, oh, one thing I want to mention, everybody gets the recording to the conference as well. Because I'm one of these people who is buying tickets and then after two hours, my system, I'm just like too overwhelmed and then I have to watch some of this stuff later on. So yeah, I want to mention that. Thank you so much for making so much time for having me and making this happen for all these amazing questions that were sometimes easy, sometimes not to answer.

I hope people get something out of this. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Appreciate it. I got tons and I know that people listening to this podcast are going to be super stoked. And I hope everybody within the sound of my voice goes down to the show notes and clicks on the links to check out more of what you're doing to reach out to you if they have any questions or thoughts or they have ideas that that are worth talking about. You're such a cool person to talk to.

And I know that anybody can just click on that button and reach out to you because you're willing to help people. and you're doing an amazing job. I'm super thankful for it. I'm super stoked for your success coming up and all the partnerships you're building. And yeah, thank you so much for today. Ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got. Yeah.

I speak to you soon, I hope. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. All right. Bye. Bye. Okay. Ciao.

Bye-bye.