TrueLife - Amil Patel - Co-Founder, CEO, Meeko Health

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Ladies & Gentleman Amil Patel,  Co-Founder, CEO, Meeko Health.This was an incredible conversation about what the future of health can be. Amil has a DEEP philosophical understanding of how we may be able to create a better healthcare system moving forward. It was a true pleasure to speak with him.In nature’s gentle tapestry, I find my remedy,A whisper from the Earth, a Sufi symphony.Medicine from meadows, secrets in the breeze,A celebration of life, the soul at ease.Beneath the azure sky, where wildflowers sway,Healing hands of nature, a gift each day.In meadows bathed in gold, and forests deep and wise,The elixir of existence, in every sunrise.The dance of leaves, a waltz with dappled light,Heals the spirit’s wounds, in nature’s tender sight.The river’s lullaby, a soothing, sweet refrain,Medicine flows within, washing away the pain.Within the garden’s heart, blooms of every hue,Nature’s silent whisper, healing, ever true.Herbs and petals, in delicate embrace,Bring solace to the soul, a touch of nature’s grace.Each sunrise a new verse, in life’s sacred song,Nature’s pharmacy abundant, a place to belong.Among the ancient trees, beneath the open sky,Medicine and beauty in every butterfly.With gratitude, we roam through this sacred land,Nature’s loving touch, her gentle, guiding hand.In the Sufi’s gaze, we find a sacred trance,Medicine in the dance, a timeless, joyful dance.Life’s rhythm and its rhyme, in every heartbeat found,Nature’s subtle cure, in every sight and sound.Celebrate the gift, the world’s magnificent art,In the Sufi’s embrace, nature’s healing heart.http://linkedin.com/in/amilkpatel One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. No, brother, you do it. You do it. You do it well. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining.

I hope the wind is at your back. I hope that you realize there's something beautiful about to happen in your life. I got a great show for you today. And normally I start off with an introduction for someone that is based upon all their accomplishments. This gentleman I have today has an incredible amount of accomplishments, but I thought I would start off with a little something different. So here we go with a new type of true life introduction for the one and only, Amil Patel. In nature's gentle tapestry, I find my remedy, a whisper from the earth, a Sufi symphony.

Medicine from meadows, secrets in the breeze, a celebration of life, the soul at ease. Beneath the azure sky where wildflowers sway, healing hands of nature a gift each day. In meadows bathed in gold and forest deep and wise, the elixir of existence in every sunrise. The dance of leaves, a waltz with dappled light, heals the spirit's wound, in nature's tender sight. The river's lullaby, a soothing, sweet refrain. Medicine flows within, washing away the pain. Within the garden's heart blooms of every hue,

nature's silent whisper, healing ever true. Herbs and petals and delicate embrace bring solace to the soul a touch of nature's grace. Each sunrise a new verse in life's sacred song, nature's pharmacy abundant, a place to belong. Among the ancient trees beneath the open sky, medicine and beauty in every butterfly. With gratitude, we roam through this sacred land, nature's loving touch, her gentle guiding hand. In the Sufi's gaze, we find a sacred trance.

Medicine in the dance, a timeless, joyful dance. Life's rhythm and its rhyme in every heartbeat found, nature's subtle cure in every sight and sound. Celebrate the gift, the world's magnificent art in the Sufis embrace, nature's healing, heart, Mr. Patel, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. Thanks, George. That was great. It was beautiful.

Well, thank you. I am hopeful that our conversation will follow along the lines and people will continue to see not only the poetry that happens to them every day and the dance with nature in their life, but that simple conversations about the future can have real ramifications for people's health going forward. I wanted to throw it to you, my friend. What is going on? You and I spoke a little bit before the podcast, but maybe you can give a little bit more of a background on who you want. are what you're doing and what you see happening in the future. Yeah.

That sounds great. I'm a pharmacist. I'm also just a regular guy. I'm just a regular dude. I've been fascinated by healthcare in the United States, kind of learned, or at least tried to learn, kind of every aspect of how healthcare works, why it works the way it does. And it's been a fun ride. I spent the last eight years at a company called Alto Pharmacy. It's a small pharmacy startup that blew up and is taking care of thousands

and thousands of patients really well. I'm proud of the work that Alto has accomplished. and my co-founders and I just started MECO Health this year, and we're focused on our passion. It was mental health and the evolution of mental health and the space that we're in. Mental health, so many of us are striving to find and define what that is for ourselves. When you think about mental health and you think about the way you

grew up and what we're looking at. What do you think are some of the biggest problems on the forefront of mental health in the world today? The biggest problems on the forefront of mental health today? That's a simple question. I mean, I think like taken to the extreme, I love zooming out on the X axis of time.

And so when I zoom out in the X axis of time, I think we have an extraordinarily primitive understanding of mental health. I think human beings, human beings like generally want to stay alive, right? And that's kind of like the goal of biology, I guess, right? is like stay alive. And so we're incredibly smart creatures. We've we've kind of like poured so much science into the physical side of our bodies and like how to hack staying alive as much as we can. Like we've done incredible work, right? Like surgery, invasive surgery,

medication management for disease states. Like we've just like, we've made so much incredible progress on our physical health. We still have a long way to go. I'm so, incredibly excited for what the future look like gene therapy I mean so much potential when I think about mental health and especially why I'm excited about this period of time I think about mental health I think about like kind of objectively we've we've done so little and a lot of this is because we've we've shelved these novel therapy psychedelic therapies for decades right and that's that's its own issue and learning.

But I think the thing preventing us from this unlock is just more rigor and more understanding of mental health and like and and where it comes from. I think what we're seeing today, like again, on this long X axis of time, I think what we're seeing today is just like fascinating kind of like. evolution of of of human consciousness which is like uh in my mind right human consciousness is like basically in aggregate kind of pointing to this gap that exists in in in in human kind right now and this is my perspective i have no idea if this is true right but but this person this this as human beings evolve, I think over, and again, this is over like thousands and thousands of years,

we've always kind of, biology has kind of programmed us to want to survive, right? We want to survive. That is like, that is our goal. It's programmed into us the day we're born. It's like, we want to survive. It's like why baby cries for food or attention, right? It's like, we'll do anything to survive. And I think what we're seeing right now collectively, as like as human beings, I think we're noticing this evolution of consciousness recognizing these like outdated biological mechanisms that have served us incredibly well for thousands and thousands of years.

And so what I mean by that is I think so much of mental health, and I think this is going to prove out, as we study this more in the future, I think so much of mental health is kind of related to your psyche and your psyche development from childhood through, I don't know, maybe like 11 years old. Who knows? Right? But it's like the way you as a child experience events and kind of record those events in your subconscious mind and develop your psyche into adulthood to be able to kind of face today's challenges and learn and grow and become an independent adult. I think so much of mental health is really tied to these like fundamental needs as a child that, relate to safety and acceptance, right? Because safety and acceptance for thousands of years has been this kind of like North Star for us to say, we are increasing our chances of survival, right? If we feel safe, we're increasing our chances of survival. If we feel accepted, we have a tribe, right? We're increasing our chances of survival. And I think like those mechanisms brought in to 2023, they don't necessarily serve us in the same way. Like generally,

today in today's society, right? You're born and things generally are like working in your favor, right? I generally have food, shelter, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You generally have all the things that you need. But I think what's like the outdated programming is we go through childhood development, we're developing our psyche, our kind of foundation of how we think about mental health or how we feel. And I think there are like events that occur to us or ways that we perceive events and we kind of store this in our psyche as we build the foundation of mental health and childhood. And it's incredibly outdated, right? And so taking to the extreme, it's like, oh, me as a child, you know, I felt, let's say it was like, I felt judged early on in my childhood

because I got bad grades and I felt so, you know, ashamed by my parents. And I think this is just like a story that I'm making up, right? But that's those like simple subtleties of life experiences recorded in your psyche as a child of, you know, a lack of acceptance really has a profound impact on how you kind of build the foundation of your mental health into adulthood. And I think that's, I think that's fascinating. I think we have so much to learn about mental health and childhood development, how you kind of build this framework and foundation for your emotional well-being as an adult

during these childhood processes. And we just like we understand so little of that today. And so I think that's fascinating. I think right now is this kind of inflection point in this long tale of history of human beings where we're saying, hey, there is a misalignment here. There's a misalignment in like how we feel. as adults and how we've kind of like these defense mechanisms that are programmed to protect us, they're kind of outdated. And I think we have so much to learn, so much opportunity.

That's such a beautiful way. Thank you for that. I think it's a very unique way and a very elegant way to describe where we're at. On some level with all the heartache and the pain that we see around us, it seems a lot like birth pains. You know, we look back and we're so, judgmental of the foundations or the the infrastructure that got us oh that was wrong i can't believe they did that but maybe we should be celebrating the fact that we're here and now we can look back and be like okay let's fix this like maybe you should be you know when i look back at some of the ways in which we have treated other parts of us and by other parts i mean us i think it's in my view I see it as one giant organism.

And I think that that could be a way moving forward to better understand the human condition. And by the human condition, I mean all of us. Because when you start looking at stuff like the DSM, you start realizing that, hey, these are just symptoms. Everything that people have written in here, whether it's bulimia or whether it's, you know, ADD or ADHD or whatever sort of ailment, most ailments seem to be symptoms of a society that's sick. You know, and I think when we begin, when we begin looking at our society as a unit, then we can begin seeing mental health as like, hey, this is our collective health. And if the guy, there's a guy living under the bridge, part of me is sick.

Like, how can that happen? I can't let that happen. I don't have to go out and save him, but I can start working towards making his life better. When you do that, you make your own life better. Do you see the future of mental health being the understanding that we're all part of a superorganism? Yeah. I love it. Yeah, I mean, again, like taking the extreme, we kind of are, right?

I love, I love thinking things in a long X-axis. Yes. So like taking the extreme and take this conflict in Israel and Palestine, right? Right? This conflict in Israel driven by Hamas. And there's so much there to unpack. And there's like massive, like massive atrocity, right? Yep.

And I think like, again, like zooming out. I don't know. Maybe it sounds silly. But it's like there's so much hurt and trauma that needs to be resolved. And again, like this thing's really interesting. It goes back to this deep, deep, deep. human condition of safety and acceptance is like my, my land, right? This is my land.

Without land, without a home, how can I be safe, right? Without a place that I call home. This is the essential kind of at the essence of the conflict that's happening to our brothers and sisters in the Middle East. This is the essence of the conflict is this deep-rooted sense of safety. And again, over the long excess of X axis of time, we're going to look back. I hope. I really hope.

And I actually believe this in my heart to be true. We're going to look back at these events in a textbook. And I'm going to like, what? You know, wow. Like what a challenging learning process. Because it is essentially what is our plan. We have earth. and we need to figure out a way to, and Earth is finite.

It is not infinite. It is finite on a long enough x-axis of time. We are super smart, right? And so you have to have some amount of, like, hope and determination that collectively we're going to make things better. We're going to actively work on the climate crisis. We're going to actively look on, work on. a myriad of different things that are going to allow us to survive and thrive on Earth.

But eventually, Earth's going to be non-inhabitable, right? And so we collectively figure out, yeah, like, it's, that's just not going to happen, right? Like, we're just, the sun's going to expand the whole thing. And so, like, we've got to figure out what to do collectively. And, like, when that happens, right, when that happens, I think we're all going to be closer to what you describe, which I think is a good thing. It's like one organism. We're going to be like, like less extreme shades of color, right? We're going to be like more intermingled. I think we're going to like probably sort out a bunch of our religious and like beliefs issues. And I think

we're going to all be like one very cohesive community. And it's a question of like, what are all of the struggles and challenges that we're going to face? and overcome, inevitably. We're going to overcome them on like our slow walk in that direction. And there's a lot of pain. In the process of fertilization, when like a sperm meets an egg, isn't that kind of what's happening now? Like you're seeing the process of fertilization.

Like when I think about pain, when I think about struggle, when I think about wars, when I think about death, I think about something being born. like that it seems to me like that's what's happening now you know what blows my mind is the fact that you had mentioned one day we're going to look back on this in our textbooks the very fact that you can imagine us looking back on this i think speaks volumes to me of where we're at you know the moment you can look back on something means on some level you're already ahead of it you can see the past you can't see the past when you're in it you know if if you and i are in a midst

of us slugging when we're punching it in the face. We're not thinking about what's going to happen at the end or we're not looking back on it. But I think it speaks volumes of where we're at in the world of mental health when we can already look at where we've been and be like, this is what's happening now. In some ways, we're creating the future by having this conversation. But I do. I think that all of the things that we're talking about today are fundamentally going to change mental health for the better.

And I think we're struggling to find a worldview. you. I think we're struggling to find what, we're struggling to understand shared sacrifice and shared goals. And until you figure that out, you can't really have a solid mental health because there's the struggle in there, right? Is, is, is there something to be said about, there's something to be said about that? I'll just pass that back over to you. What do you think? I think it's, I don't know, my, my take on it is like, it is, It's the human condition to face challenges and overcome challenges. I think in the entirety of our existence, we're going to be facing challenges,

and we're going to have to put our noggins together and figure out how to overcome challenges. I think the reason I believe that is because that is our entire history. It's like the history of humankind. And we've just, you know, we like work together. and put the international space station up in orbit. Like, what? We just do incredible, we do some incredible shit out there, right?

And sometimes we forget it. Sometimes we take it for granted. But we're going to figure things out. We're going to. There's like there's a reason we're here. There's a reason we exist. We're going to figure stuff out. And we're going to evolve.

It's like it's in our nature. and and it's it's all going to happen really really slowly and really quickly at the same time and I think the thing it's like can we can we overcome these like interpersonal like interhuman challenges so we can be a collective and I think that's going to I think yes I think yes 100% I believe that in my soul yes we're going to

right and the reason I believe that is because I look back at history we've done that like we have made such incredible progress and we still have more

progress to make and it's going to be at times painful progress but it's like if you're yeah if you're sitting on the ride and watching the ride it's like it's a messy ride

but you know that you know where it's going. And it's going in a direction where we collectively have developed just this radical understanding and radical sense of empathy along this kind of framework of shared goals. And I think those shared goals are going to be around survival. And that shared goal around survival,

and what it means for how we think about evolution, I think it's going to force us. to really look in the mirror, right, collectively. Yeah. And I think in looking in the mirror, we're going to realize, like, we need to work together. We can choose to work together. And we can find ways to address our differences and figure things out, you know. I love it.

I love the young, the youngian idea of looking in the mirror. You know, when you look at, when you walk, you know what I mean? Like when you walk outside, on some level, everybody you see is a mirror. On some level, the world is talking to us through us. If you notice something in somebody else that you despise, it's probably because you despise that thing about yourself. If you see something in someone else that you admire, it's probably because you want to foster that thing inside of you.

Do you think moving forward in the idea of mental health is understanding that, like, is there a place for our shared history in mental health? Like we need, on some level, we need to have this understanding that we are are moving forward together as one organism. Is there a foundation moving forward for mental health in the world that you want to see? I mean, I think like centering mental health around empathy is one way to create that framework.

And I think when you kind of center the framework around empathy, you, I think it's important that you, like, start with self-emphepathy. Right. And I think, yeah, I think that's the, that is the framework, right? And that's why I love the kind of young-in take on human beings are just like, are mirrors of each other, right? Right.

Because we really are, right? And that kind of speaks to this idea that we are this one colline. together. Yeah. In my life, I found that psychedelics are a great mirror for that. You know, in heightened states of awareness, you're able to see things from a different perspective, whether it may have been a trauma that happened in your life or something that happened to someone you love. You're given this new perspective on things.

What role do you think psychedelics can play in moving the ball forward for mental health? Exactly that perspective shift. Right. I think that's it. I think it's, I think, I think that is exactly the role that psychedelics can play when we think about the future of mental health. And it is, it is, it is specifically perspective shift. I think human beings are, you know, we're creatures of narrative. We're storytellers. We're narrative based, we're narrative-based creatures, right? Stories have been a part of our existence since, since the beginning. I've been writing writing shit down with hieroglyphics. And when you think about stories in mental health, it's like mental health, when you boil it down, it's really like, how do you feel? And when you're describing someone how you feel, you're telling them this inner story. I'm like, this is what's going on in my head. And it is a story.

And I think what's powerful is this holding the idea that there can be many perspectives to this story. you're holding on to. And that's where I believe psychedelics play a role. Different psychedelics are going to allow you to look at things in a different light, different way. To me, it's like, you know, you're, it's like you're walking into a castle, this massive castle. And, you know, you've just got, you know, you've got your candle, right? It's like super dark and you've got your candle. And to explore this castle, you're like walking around and you've got your candle and you can really only see what's in front of you, right? Yeah. And I think, I think when you look, when you think about explaining your kind of your state of mental health

or someone's asking you how you're feeling, you're describing your perspective by holding that candle, right? That is how, that's just how we are. Yeah. I think, I think psychedelics kind of allow you to stand inside this castle and you are able to, you're able to find the breaker box and you can turn all the lights on in the castle and you're like, oh my God, right? I can see every, everything right now. And I think that perspective shift with integration is how you kind of start to reshape mental health. I love it. I love the idea of the candle in the darkness. You know, there's a, I don't know where I read it, but it's something along the lines of. When you shine a light into the darkness, you're made aware of how much more darkness there is.

I love that. You know, I guess on some level, on some level, too, this reminds me of James Joyce's Ulysses where he speaks about history is the nightmare from which I'm trying to awaken. And maybe it's our collective history. Maybe it's this history we've been conditioned with our whole life to hold on to. Hey, here's this thing called truth. Hold that for a little while. Well, that idea of holding on to truth gets really heavy. It's really cumbersome, especially when you start bouncing up against ideas like this truth thing over here?

I think it's kind of bullshit. You know, how can that be? That's very difficult for someone to hold on to. I think it starts to the weight of cognitive dissonance starts to break down the barriers around you until you go a little crazy. That's got to be part of the mental health scheme too, right? Yeah. I think, you know, I think it, I think one thing that will, I think one thing that will help is really just like education on yes on what like what to expect also like what is truth what you know what truth is your truth right it's like the word right it's just a word and when I think about when I think about what we're doing here or at least our vision of how the space is going to unfold it's like and just simplifying it's like what we're trying to do is like let's just you know what

Why is psychotherapy incredibly helpful and incredibly effective? Right? It's essentially like, again, human beings, we're basic creatures. Like we, we, there's something about connecting with another human being and sharing in a non-judgmental way, how you're actually thinking and feeling. And sharing that logo someone, having someone hold that without judgment and being able to point you in directions to allow that perspective shift and allow you to question truth is, is, it's, you know, that is incredibly powerful. And I think when you, when you add psychedelics as an adjuvant to therapy, and really,

you're just unlocking, right, human beings are, we are people that, we need other people. Like, we are, we need connection. But at the same time, right, we're also, like, we have all. of these defense mechanisms. We can be shy. We can be, you know, we can be stubborn. We can be uncomfortable and all these things that kind of prevent psychotherapy from actually working. And so bringing in psychedelics and allowing yourself to say like, I'm choosing, right? I'm choosing to allow myself to embrace the discomfort and move past it, turn down the discomfort, turn down my fears,

and be able to go in with that mentality. I think going in with the mentality of this is a choice I'm making, I am allowing myself to do this because I'm allowing myself to explore what's really there. I think having that mindset is so important in this work. I love it. I think our definition of change is changing, if that makes sense. For so long, we see change is like this. Maybe this is just my opinion.

Maybe this is the way I have seen it. Maybe this is why, maybe it's changing for me. So forgive me, I'm not trying to speak in these broad generalizations. But it seems to me that for a long time, at least in my life, and some of the people with whom I care about, change has been associated with pain. Like, oh, we cannot, we have to stay here. And it gets back to the idea of survival or land

or some of the stuff we brought up in the earlier part of the conversation. Sometimes to change is to die. And even if you look at that from metaphorically, but maybe that's a good thing. And it's very difficult to try to equate death with something good because we've been conditioned in the West our whole life to think,

that's it when you die you're gone but maybe change associated with death equals growth maybe if we can change that mindset a little bit it's not the end of the line it's it's not that this is it see you guys later we got some nice parting gifts for you um hopefully you don't end up in a in a nursing home on a machine where no one comes to visit you you know maybe it's hey you've been consuming as this caterpillar the cocoon is here and now you're a new form. Maybe mental health moving forward means changing our relationship to death. Amil, what do you think? I think death is scary. And I think people are always going to be worried about death. I think that's good. I think that's good to be to have a healthy fear of death.

I think when I think about, I don't know, I'm interpreting death in your context as almost like, as almost like someone is letting a part of themselves, like an old part of themselves, die. Right? And I think that, I think my perspective on that is I don't necessarily agree with that perspective. Okay. I don't know if, again, like, I think, I think holding that perspective. for people can be a little bit unnerving or frightening like I'm gonna like radically change as a human being like there's an old me and a new and and I and I think I go back to what we were chatting about earlier with it's just like radical self-empathy and like nothing needs to die right he's just like you you you are

you are perfect you are absolutely perfect the way you are you were been perfect since the day you were born no change needed. But if you're willing to, and if you want to, and I believe everyone should be able to have the opportunity to grow and broaden your perspective and learn. Again, we are human beings. We're the most curious forms of life that we know of to date, right? We're incredibly curious.

And so to allow people that are that are ready to, for people that are ready to, to allow them to get curious about themselves in a way that helps them with their mental health and really just allows people to have a sense of agency in their lives is incredible. And I don't think the framework of people going into psychedelic, assisted, of therapy is thinking about ego death or or there's an old me and a new me. I think like in general, I think the framework here is is just your evolution, your ability to broaden your perspective and continue to grow. And you're always going to have parts of you, right? Like you're born, you've been perfect since the day you're born. But when you're ready to explore and this kind of modality of

It allows you to have a higher sense of agency in your life than that if it's right for you, then that's an opportunity you should go after. I love it. What about a whirlpool? Like maybe we're a form. You know, the water, the whirlpool is a form, but there's constantly new water being recycled through it. Is that better than the one of dying? The whirlpool? I don't know.

I don't know if that's better. I don't like the, I don't like dying. I know you don't like dying. Why is that a problem? I don't get it. Yeah, well, I'm glad you I said. I'm glad you asked that. I think, and this could just be me, right?

Like, who am I? But I think in mental, I think when I think about mental health and aggregate, I really, I think this is important to me. I really want people to know that they're not broken, that there's nothing wrong with them. Nothing needs to die. they're they're they're perfect the way they are they have every right to think the way they think

to feel the way they feel and all they need is again all they need is a shift in and not even a shift they need to broaden they need to allow themselves to open up their perspective and um and and and that's that's why i've just you know when when people chat about this uh type of care and and chat about the idea of moving on from like an old part of themselves. It's just I want to remind. I want to remind people that like I want them to love and appreciate this, this person that they are right now. And the challenges that they're facing right now are valid challenges.

But just deep, deep appreciation. for every experience, whether positive or negative, that it brought them to this point in life, I think is something that we can all remind each other to just have deep appreciation that we're here, that we get to be on this ride. This ride can be really challenging sometimes, and it can be really hard to talk about,

and it can be really hard to ask for help. It can be really hard to find help. And we should all kind of work collectively in figuring out that problem. But I, yeah, I want to remind people that they're absolutely perfect just the way they are. And I think in mental health, like, I think hope is really, really fragile. And I think hope is incredibly important to hold on to. And so I always want people to instill in themselves this like deep sense of gratitude for themselves and hope.

I love it. Awareness comes to mind. I think of this idea of awareness. I've been reading a lot about, there's a really great book called the Gutenberg Galaxy by Marshall McLuhan. And in that book, he speaks about the shifting of sense ratios. And he uses typography, the ideas of exact repeatability as a way that shifted our collective way to model reality.

You think about that idea of exact repeatability. That's a big one. That changes the way we model reality. Is it possible that, and when I hear you talking about the way in which you hope people are able to to see and love themselves in the now, is it possible that we're on the cusp of a sense ratio change, the same way typography, according to Marshall McLuhan, change the way we model reality? Are we at a stage right now where maybe we can begin to model reality? in a different way by changing our sense ratios. Yeah, totally. Totally.

Why not? Yeah, why not? Yeah. Why not? Yeah. Like, we're, you know, you're changing, like, taking to the extreme over time, if you have just radical, radical self-emphathy and empathy for those around you, it doesn't mean everything's perfect.

But it kind of changes the way in which you, you should. show up and, uh, and manage debate and manage differences. Um, I think it brings humanity, uh, it kind of redefines how you bring humanity back into, uh, behaviors and actions. Um, and so yes, um, 100%. The idea that we could understand our behavior in a different way is mind blowing to me. That can change everything. Um, that we can change our behavior in a certain way. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I agree. But, but, but the way we look, like, Like, I don't think I'm saying it accurately. Like, the idea that...

Look at the things we've done in our past. We've done some pretty fucking wild shit. Horrible, but amazing at the same time. Yeah, but like, we've also, we're like, we've got some rough edges, right? Yes. We're seeing this now in the Middle East. Yes. We've got some rough edges.

And so, yeah, I think if you, you radically, again, taking to the extreme, if you're in a place where human beings have their, you know, the basic needs met and fulfilled, and every human being has this deep sense of safety, acceptance, and they're able to, they're able to, you know, kind of climb Masel's hierarchy. I think you really change kind of the throughput of our kind of collective species. Like who knows what we're able to accomplish. And I also believe that this is like a natural progression of things. I think we have to get to where we are.

We have to get through this to naturally move to our hopeful and bright future, which is like we've got to figure out mental health. And oh my God, there's so much we got to figure out there. like I mentioned earlier, I think childhood development is huge in understanding the foundation that you weigh for your own psyche and mental health and with so much to learn and understand there. So much. Is it fractal? You know, like imagine someone, maybe yourself or someone you know that's a violent person.

And now just extrapolate that out, take the long look at the X-axis, and that is humankind. Is what we're seeing right now, a violent outburst in the Middle East, in the human condition, the same way someone who's frustrated about a parking spot, maybe not the best way, but you know what I'm saying? Can we see in the individual that happening in the world? Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense.

I think the emotion, like I think we all share the same emotions. I think we all share the same emotions. I think the narratives that we attach to those emotions are different and subjective and unique to each and every one of us. And the actions, like the behaviors and actions that we take based off of the narrative that we attach to those emotions are unique and subjective to all of us. But I think the underlying emotions that we're all feeling are the same. Are they contagious, do you think? It seems to me when we talk about storytelling and narratives, storytelling and narratives are a way to contain the contagion of emotion. You know, there's so much that's put into the storytelling and it's so powerful.

You know, and we know that illness is contagious. If I get sick, then you can get sick. Is on some level, the emotions of the people where I am in Hawaii contagious to the emotions of you, just even talking to you now in some ways it's contagious. But is that, I think we could factor that into the world of mental health. Like what happens on this part of the planet is coming to that part of the planet. And you hear it. it in the language all the time. When the U.S. catches are cold, the world gets sick. You know, it's in the language already. And if we can agree that the illness is contagious, then shouldn't health be contagious as well? It is. It is. Right? It's like, let's simplify that. It's like,

it's like when you are in a movie theater with a bunch of strangers and you're watching a really sad movie. Like, everyone in that movie theater has moved by that sad movie and that like that character journey. And it's the same thing if it's an incredibly inspiring movie. Like everyone including me was like incredibly moved by the Mighty Ducks. I was like, oh my God. What? Like what is like how inspiring, right? Yeah. I mean, like I think emotions are are contagious and And I think, again, I think as we learn more about mental health, I think one thing that is worth, worth thinking about and worth bringing awareness to as we all enjoy this ride, is the infrastructure through which we receive information, which is the media.

And again, because humans are just fucking incredible, we're also seeing the evolution of how we create and consume content, which I think is just is speaking to how amazing we are at evolution, right? Like we are calling out and noticing how large media channels are able to do exactly this, like drive not only national narratives, but also kind of like the national media carriers can be seen as like the movie. And all of us are like people sitting in the movie theater watching this movie. And if this movie is all about hatred and aggression, like we're all going to feel that, right?

And so we have to be thoughtful. And I see breadcrumbs of this today, which is great. But we should be thoughtful about throughout the course of our evolution. We should be thoughtful about how are we consuming content. What do we pay it? Our attention is holy and what are we paying attention to? What is deserving of our attention? And are we bringing awareness to,

the kind of the emotions where we put where we put our attention are we bringing awareness to the the emotions that occur when we when we put our attention focused in a certain direction and I think we're going to get smarter and smarter about this over time and we already are yeah yeah you it doesn't take a whole lot of concentration to look back and see how fast things are changing Right? It's happening as fast as you can snap your fingers. In some ways, it's here's an interesting idea. Sometimes our intuitive nature, like if we, we spoke recently just a moment ago about how emotions can be contagious. And on some level, if we follow that strand, we intuitively know on some level what's wrong with the other person. We may not know exactly what caused it, but we can see heartache, we can see stress. And on some level, we know what's wrong with that person. However, sometimes that intuitive nature leads to judgment, which is, what do you think is the relationship between our intuitive nature and judgment? And not the judgment's always bad, but sometimes that judgment can be bad.

What do you think is the relationship there between our intuitive nature and judgment? I think judgment's always bad. I think I think discernment is not. I think judgment is, um, uh, um, um, it's like a story, right? It's a story that you have about something else. And I think, right, like that, that, that which can be destroyed by the truth should be. And so I think when I think about judgment, I think like judging is part of the human condition.

And I think what we want to bring awareness to is that we don't want to stop the judgment, because judgment's going to be here for a long, long time. We might evolve away from it, but the judgment serves to protect us in some way, right? It's like a mental process that is there for a reason. And we want to accept it. We want to embrace it. And we want to bring awareness to it. And I think in bringing awareness to our judgment, we realize that it is exactly that judgment.

And I think when you bring awareness to it, you can ask and communicate and you can open up a window to another person's soul and say, hey, you know, this is, what I'm thinking, how do you feel about it? I think the more we communicate with candor and the more we share, the more vulnerable we are with each other, the less we are in our heads and interacting with each other in the real world. I think that's for the, that's for general good. Wow. Really well said. I love the idea. On some level, I'm thinking maybe we're just now developing the language to solve with these problems. You know, a lot of people have a different vocabulary, or if you're from a different culture, the word obedience may mean something different to you than to me. And on some level, the evolution of mental health, I think, comes from communication.

And just in that last piece alone, when we decided to define our terms and say, this is judgment, this is discernment, what's the difference? That really opens up a whole lot in understanding who we are. And with psychedelics, too, we often find. ourselves bumping up against the ineffable like this thing we can't quite describe but we can feel do you think moving forward that we're moving into this new era of language and with that new era of language comes a new level of understanding yeah i think so it's funny you mentioned feelings and we haven't really talked about that yeah but i think that's another thing um that's that i'm really excited about i'm super excited about uh more uh more rigor and understand

understanding are like the felt sense of emotions. I think it's fascinating. Just being able to, being able to understand this like this mind-body relationship. Yeah. And how emotions manifest in our body and how we can kind of bring awareness to that, I think is fascinating and something that is so,

kind of untapped, unchartered territory, especially in Western medicine. I think we're starting to make a ton of progress, and I'm so excited for how that's going to evolve. Yeah, you should be. When we talk about Miko Health, what is like the prime directive that you and your team are building on? The directive. Or just like the foundation, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we just, we, just, we,

you know, we want to focus on everyone being able to access root cause-focused mental health care. So root-cause-focused mental health care, it's like, what is that? And to us, it's really just getting down to working with patients and helping them identify what are their narratives, how are they feeling? What are their narratives and what are their underlying emotional needs? and how do we address those needs? And so we're working on getting patients access to that type of care. It's interesting. Sometimes when I look at the world of psychedelics and medicine,

sometimes I wonder if it's, if the container, the medical container is too impermeable. You know what I mean by that? Like we have all the psychedelics and it's all in this container, but it seems to me it's really trying. to be held in this container. Does that make sense? Is it too constrictive? I think it's a bit. Like we've got all these processes and you know, we've created all these ways of doing things and and kind of gaining consensus. And I think it's all like rooted around the right reasons. It's not to stagnate

research. I think it's for safety. Right. And so, and I think that's warranted. And I think in that same framework, we're going to have a lot of opportunities to learn and grow. 100%. Yeah. One of the areas I already see beginning to come back into the world of medicine is the measurement of subjectivity. And what I mean by that is that for a long time, science had decided, look, we're not going to count anything that we can't really measure. But what about the chance? tears of joy from a woman who sees her husband get out of bed for the first time in six months. What about a mom who sees their kid get dressed for the first time in a week or takes a shower? Or, you know, what about a questionnaire where they give a question to the wife of a guy who was abusive? And it's like, is your husband less of an asshole since you've been doing this? Like, these are all measurable things that I see moving back into the world of medicine.

That makes me excited. That makes me excited for the world of mental health. What about you? Is there some trends that you see happening in this world that are really exciting for you? I actually have a differing opinion on this. I think when we think about mental health, I actually am concerned about the ways in which we take the physical, the physical kind of construct or roadmap that we have, sorry, the roadmap that we have for physical health. kind of laying mental health on top of that. One concern that I have is around diagnosing the

requirement of a diagnosis for mental health conditions. When I think about the mental health stigma that exists today, I often think about how diagnoses lead to, or at least feed into the mental health stigma. It is essentially, my version of this is like, we're essentially labeling people, right? And then we're also questioning why there's a mental health stigma, where there's stigma across mental health, well, essentially because we've taken the construct of physical health, which is, what is it? Like, let's summarize it really quickly. It is like, you have an issue. You take a test.

You receive objective results. And through those results, you have a treatment plan. And then you're on treatment, right? And so it's like, okay, I, you know, I feel shorter. breath constantly. It's like, okay, I will, let me take your blood pressure. Your blood pressure is objectively high. I'm going to put you on a blood pressure medication. And it's like, and your diagnosis is hypertension, right? And for mental health, we've kind of, like, that is a very objective test. Let me, let me put a sphigmoimumometer around your arm and measure your blood

pressure. And for mental health, it's like, if you take that same kind of arc, I don't like it, It's kind of like, I have an issue. Okay, let me talk to someone about it. Let me have you take a test, right? This is like, okay, PhD 9, because I need to confirm that you have depression, and then I need that diagnosis so that I can decide if I'm going to give you medication.

And to me, and it's like this is, this is not the purpose of mental health. Mental health in my mind, sure, there will always be room for diagnoses, right? There are mental health conditions that are diagnosed, my bipolar disorder. There's so many things. This space is going to evolve. And there are going to be reasons for diagnosis.

When I think about someone with depression, anxiety, PTSD, when I think of someone that has like an emotional or behavioral health issue and we want to kind of bucket them or label them and put them in a box and treatment, treat them with, you know, SSRI or certain class medications, to me, I think we're going to look back on this in a couple hundred years. And we're going to be like, we're going to change it all, right? I genuinely believe this. I think we're going to look back and be like, what the hell were we thinking?

The future of the space is going to be like, okay, someone has a mental health issue, right? We're not going to label them. We're going to have them talk to someone and allow them to allow themselves to have the vulnerability to effectively chat with someone about exactly what they're feeling, what story did they have, how are they feeling, give us the whole spiel, right? And then it's essentially how do we work? work with that patient in helping them identify these challenging emotions, identifying the narrative that they have around those challenging emotions, and then working with them on perspective shifts.

And so to me, that is like not a diagnosis that sticks with you for the rest of your life. You need medication for the rest of your life. For me, I think we're going to think about mental health as an opportunity to deepen your understanding of yourself, an opportunity to explore something about yourself that, you're not able to process because of a challenging emotion because of a challenging event for something. But it's like maintaining the integrity of this human being that there's nothing wrong with you. You are not broken, right? Because of reasons that we yet don't understand, I believe a lot of it has to do with childhood development.

But for reasons we don't understand, you had an experience that created an emotion, a strong negative emotion, and you have a story around it. and this story, instead of being processed, this story continues every day throughout your life. The volume of that story is turned up every single day, and you want to talk to someone about it. And so you need support in deepening your understanding of this part of you that is really challenging, and we're going to support you, and you're going to come out the other side. And when you come out the other side, when you come out the other side, you are going to have a deeper understanding of yourself, such a. that you've now developed a higher sense of agency. The volume, the noise on this narrative has

essentially, you can control the volume on this noise, that is agency. You can realize when the volume is really high. And because you deepen your understanding of where this narrative comes from or what this emotional need is asking for, you can turn the volume down and continue on with your life day to day. I think we're going to look back at mental health and not say that, oh, this feeling that you have is wrong and we need to remove it from your life. We're going to look at mental health and say, this feeling is interesting. Let us seek to understand what's going on there. And then as this feeling kind of continues to pop up throughout your life, because it's a part of you,

how do you manage it? Instead of reacting to it, how are you in control of it? And how do you kind of work with it? And I think this is a huge part of psychedelicist and psychotherapy, one that my co-founders and I are really focused on and want to get right, which is integration. Like, this is the process of integration. It is not kind of rejecting or tearing away parts of you, but it really is like deepening your understanding of yourself, your emotions, and how can you manage them so that you can develop a sense of agency in life. I love the way you explained it. I love the idea of the volume control and agency and getting people to see.

that they are their own worst enemy, but also the cure. They also are the solution to their own problem. They're perfect. They're perfect. They're perfect. Human beings are absolutely perfection. Right? And we just need, everyone's perfect.

And we just need help managing these kind of challenging emotions. We need to be able to ask for and receive support. Yeah. Getting out of our own way seems to be an issue sometimes. It brings me back to this idea of archaic revival that we spoke about early on in the conversation where when I think of rights of passage or ceremonies, in some ways you get to be the individual that looks up to the person that may be going through the right of passage. You get to be the person in the right of the passage.

And later in life, you get to be the person welcoming the person through the right of passage. You know, on some level, I think that there's an agency there. the ability to get to see yourself in all three of those positions has been something that's been stripped away from the Western model of medicine. You know, there's something very powerful about that. And I guess you can see it in Huxley's work, whether it's Brave New World or the Island. You know, is it this medical model? Here we're going to do it in this linear fashion where these are alphas, betas, or are we going to do it more than like the fashion of the island where, look, we all have, we all play these different roles in them.

life. And if you're a young man and you can watch your brother go through the ceremony, you know what to look forward to. If you're the brother in the ceremony, you can look at your little brother, like, one day he's going to go through this. I need to be strong for this. And I think that there's a connection there that we're missing with mental health. Do you see a connection between these old rites of passage and ceremonies and the lack of it in Western medicine today? Is there a problem there? I don't think it's a problem. I think it's just a part of our revolution, right? We were scared of, we were scared of this, this thing. We ran away from it. We pushed it away. It's coming back. It's coming back on our, it's coming back on our terms, right?

It's coming back through the medical model. It's our terms. And again, I think over the course of time, I wish I had a crystal ball. But over the course, but what I do know is that, right, we are incredibly smart and resourceful creatures. And over the course of time, I wouldn't be surprised if this was more, less of a medical model and more of a, just a part of the human experience. I think if I were to play with that, I would think, and again, right, long X-axis of time, things move fast and slow. I think, you know, medical model, we gain comfort, human beings in Western medicine gain comfort on the medical model for a certain amount of time. We start to realize there's advocacy, there's grassroots advocacy for this type of ceremonial experience for end of life.

And there's going to be continued statewide legislative support for states to gain autonomy. And this as kind of a ceremonial practice. I think the federal government is slow. And I think you're going to start to see large advocacy. see for for this in in Medicare for end of first specifically for grieving and for end of life because I think we're going to realize how important the concept of death with dignity is kind of to the to this this this incredible thing that is the human experience right and so then I think after that we're going to start normalizing the process of grieving and the process of dying with some of these medicines outside of,

probably initially within the medical model and then more kind of on the fringe edges of the medical model for end of life and probably more into like a ceremonial practice with patients and then with their families respectively. And then after that, I think there's going to be further unlocks to say, hey, there are other areas.

There are other areas in chapters throughout the human life where we can apply this kind of concept because we would have had such profound experiences and understanding from using these medications in the end-of-life setting that we would be like, let's expand this even further. Let's expand this to what we're doing now. We're already doing this in other parts of the world. We have these ceremonies. in South America, Jamaica.

There's one that I caught. There's a ceremony specifically for parents to go through psilocybin sessions. They were grieving the loss of a child. It's like, of course, you know, if we're doing it now, of course that's in our future. It's a matter of, you know, how fast are we going to get there? I don't know. But talking about it's the start.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a, you know, in some level, it sounds to me like we're beginning to bridge the gap between science and spirituality and understanding that they're one and the same. I think that plays a vital role in mental health too, is that for so long that there's been this separation and this coming together. What is your take on the bridging the gap between science and spirituality? I don't, I don't know. I think I when I think about science, I think about experiments and curiosity

and measurements and I think we're still early in this space. When I think about spirituality and mental health for some reason I think about someone's spirit. When I think about someone's spirit, I think about someone's essence and who someone is. And when I think about asking someone about their mental health

and kind of reframing it or simplifying it as asking someone like, hey, how are you feeling? I'm like really checking in on their spirit. Like, how are they doing? And so I think there's an overlap here of whatever, you know, whatever you want to call it. But I think mental health and spirituality are one and the same. Yeah, me too.

I really like that. I mean, I love what you're doing. I love the way in which you're making sense of the world. and for everybody watching right now, if they want to get a hold of you, if they're interested in some of the things you're saying, how can people find you? What do you got coming up?

Where can people find you at? Yeah, check us out on our website, mikohealth.com. My co-founders, Damien, Nick and I are on LinkedIn, hit us up, message us, shoot us an email. We're always looking to chat with like-minded individuals in the space, especially therapists, psychiatrists, and employers. We firmly believe we're taking one small step in pursuing the future of the space, and we're focused on getting this covered by employers as a benefit, and we're just obsessed with this work. I think it's an integral part of it,

and I can see on some level how the mental health in the workplace is a real, problem. It's a real problem. And maybe that maybe there's answers to it with using these different modalities. Yeah. Well, yeah, I think mental health in the workplace is a challenge. I think mental health in general is a challenge just because us we collectively, you know, again, we have a really, really primitive understanding of mental health. And I think with this, with where society is at today, with FDA approval of, pending approval of MDMA, Comptu60, with society accepting ketamine And again, I think it's really important that we're using these medications as an adjuvant to psychotherapy. I think we are huge proponents of this kind of new ethos of mental health care.

And we believe that it's going to really positively impact tons of people's lives. Do you think that there may be a problem with a disassociative? You know, sometimes when we think of a disassociative, we can think of a different perspective on how to see ourselves. But a disassociative could also be something that, that causes us to run away from the problem that we need to face in order to get better. I think so. I think we should be really mindful of what data looks like over time, and we should continue to study data and outcomes data.

I think one of the things that's really important is companies that are working in the space need to measure outcomes data at the top of funnel and bottom of funnel on a patient-by-patient basis. And I think what's interesting about these medicines is I think they're going to be incredibly unique on an individual basis. So the experience is not going to be single-threaded across all human beings. I think it's really similar to today. It's hard to think about now, but it's really similar to today looking back at how we're currently treating mental health, which is like, you know, hey, try this SSRI. If it doesn't work, maybe we'll put you on a different one.

If that doesn't work, maybe we'll move to a tricyclic antidepressant or an SNRI. And when I think about the optionality that that allows patients, which is every human being is different and not one thing is a good fit for everyone. But I think the future of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy is going to be very similar in that you're going to want to be allowed the opportunity to have access to this type of care. And you're going to realize some of these types of care are not. not going to be as efficacious for you or as grounding for you or as healing for you as other types of care within the modality of psychedelic assistance psychotherapy. But I do think

optionality is important and I think access is important. So here's a question that maybe you, that is unique, I think you'll have a unique perspective on. And it's, I think a lot of people in the world of medicine sometimes think that there's maybe too much money being spent on trying to discern the mechanism of action. Like there's too many variables. We may never thoroughly understand the mechanism of action. It works. Why can we move forward with it?

How do you decide that something works? I think you can see someone's life getting better through the tears of the people around them that love them and coming back to life. They're rejoining with the world around them and reconnecting. Yeah. Yeah. I think today. society as a whole, like we like checks and balances, right? And this all comes down to safety, right?

Safety responsibility. We trust the government. Too much. Right? We like, right, we, we, we, we want to feel as human nature. We want to feel safe, right? We want to feel safe and we want to know that the powers of have put in all the thought and rigor and have like, we've removed this responsibility from ourselves and put them on to someone else, the FDA in this case, to say that, hey, this is safe and effective. And so in that construct that exists today, right wrong or indifferent,

today that means that you kind of have to go through the process of whatever the FDA is asking for. What is the mechanism of action? Can you prove efficacy data? Can you prove safety data? And I'm of the position that that's a good thing. Like, let's play on the playing field that exists today. And again, over time, it's going to evolve.

Remember when we used to go to the barber shop and we used to have infections and we would do bloodletting like 100 years ago? We would just have a barber cut our veins open because we thought that was medicine. Like everything, all of this is going to change really quickly and for the better. Yeah, it's it's intriguing and fascinating and mind-blowing and a little scary at the same time to see all these things unfolding at the rate at which they're unfolding. I'm mesmerized by it. Is there, I know you have places to be and things to do. Is there anything that we didn't cover yet that you want to talk about for a moment?

I don't think so. I think we covered, I think we covered a lot. And it was a really, yeah, Georgia was a really engaging conversation. And I had so much fun. You started, I think you started the show with a poem. And I'm wondering if I can close out the show with a poem as well. And the context, if I'm allowed to, the context here is really, again, when I think about mental health and for anyone that's listening, I think one of the most important things when you're thinking about a loved one, or even your own mental health journey is to just focus on hope.

I think it is incredibly fragile, and so I'm going to read a poem. Please. I think she needs no introduction, Emily Dickinson. Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul and sings the tune without the words and never stops at all. And sweetest in the gale is heard. and sore must be the storm that could have bashed the little bird

that's kept so many warm. I've heard it in the chillest land and on the strangest sea, but never an extremity it asked a crumb of me. Hope is the thing with feathers. That's it. It's beautiful.

What am I going to say to that? I got nothing to say, man. There's nothing else to say. Ladies and gentlemen, Hang on briefly afterwards, please. I'd like to speak to you for a more moment. But ladies and gentlemen, please go to the show notes. Check it out.

Check out the conversation. Reach out to him and his partners on LinkedIn. If you want to be part of or learn more about what they're doing, do yourself a huge favor. It's an incredible insight. And it's wonderful. That's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.