TrueLife - Anne Reijers - Monogamy, Non-Monogamy, Balance & Boundries

Episode Date: March 25, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://denoodzaak.nu/themes/You take the biggest steps in life when you feel it’s a necessity. You get stuck, something impactful happens to you or you end up in a crisis for some other reason. Or you’ve been struggling for a while and end up thinking: this is it, something needs to change. You keep puzzling, thinking and analyzing: what is it that keeps happening, what could I have done differently, why don’t I understand what I feel? In the meantime, you (subconsciously) feel everything, but still all the attention goes towards your thoughts. It’s also possible that you unconsciously pick up other people’s emotions and energy, you don’t understand what happens in a moment like that and how to let go of it again. Does it feel like you keep getting stuck in this and could you use some help?We’ll explore how we can create more balance between your thoughts and what you feel. I will help you to become aware of your feelings, what happens in your body the moment you have certain emotions and how you can use this in your advantage. How do your thoughts influence your feelings and the other way around? What feeling is yours, and what is another person’s? We aim at gaining more awareness, so that your thoughts and feelings can start to co-operate, instead of them working against each other. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fear is through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope that everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the birds are singing. The sun is shining, and then the wind is at your back. I got an incredible guest today that I'm really.

excited to speak with the professional, intelligent to talk to the one and only, Anne Reyers. I probably butcher that. And thank you so much for being here today. I want to say thank you for being here. And I hope that you're looking forward to this conversation. And I was wondering if you could tell people a little bit about yourself before we get started.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on the show. It's really nice. And you did a good job pronouncing my name. It's a tricky one. Tell you something about myself. Well, I have my own practice in the Netherlands in Amersford, sweet little town in Amersford in the Netherlands.

And I do individual sessions, but I also work a lot with couples, just monogamous couples, but also couples who are in non-monogamous relationships. and they come to my practice a lot. And yeah, I work with a lot of different teams. So people come to me for burnouts, but also people are highly sensitive, but also communication troubles or, yeah, whatever. It's very broad and I love them. Yeah, people are incredible.

And it seems to me that people who are willing to help out other people often had some sort of event happened to them, whether it's a traumatic event or a passionate event or there's something that kind of draws people to helping other people. Was there something in your life that kind of drew you to the profession you're in? Like, how did you get to be where you are? Ooh.

Do you have the time? Of course I've got the time. Yeah, good. Well, no, even as a kid, I was super sensitive, but I had no idea what was happening. So I picked up a lot of other people's emotions and feelings. and yeah, sometimes it bothered me and I was just very tired because of it. I had no idea what happened.

And then at the age of 18, my little brother died. And that was the first moment where I felt like, okay, I can't keep all these emotions and feelings in. I have to talk about it and have to start processing this. And that's when I started to work with that. So I went to a therapist, let's call him a healer. I never know what's name to give him, but he does incredible things. And there was the first time that I realized, hey, wait a minute, I can do something with this sensitivity of mine.

And it's not just something that's bothering you, but you can also use it to help other people. And at that point, I wasn't at the point where I was confident enough to do that myself. But, yeah, for me, that was a very important insight. And that's where I started to do these personal calls. courses and some education just to get to know myself a bit better and to develop my own sensitivity and to learn what was mine and what wasn't and things like that. And then during the years, I started to realize, wait a minute, I can use this and maybe I can help other people with it. And it was a pretty scary thing at first, but yeah, it's gotten me my own practice. So it worked out pretty good yeah it's interesting when you say that you know the idea of being sensitive and for those people

who are just kind of tuning in right now or are wondering a little bit about aunt i've put her link to her website in there and i recommend everybody go and check it out and you can really learn in depth about who she is and what she has going on and she does a lot of incredible things i wanted to touch on what you had recently brought up about this idea of sensitivity you know this this idea that you can pick up other people's emotions and, you know, you could be overwhelmed by them or you could lose your energy to them. Like, what can you talk a little bit more about this idea of sensitivity and what happens when we come into contact with other people? Yeah, I think it works a bit different for everyone. But so, yeah, I'll just tell you how it works

for me. For me, it's a very physical process too, because even if I work with clients, I pick up a lot and I basically feel what the other person is feeling in their body in my own body. So that's my way of picking that up. And yeah, sometimes you sense it in your body. You sense like, something's off or something's. And it's a very hard thing to explain because like you said, before words are very limiting in this way. So I sense a lot.

And then the trick for me is to put that into words. And that's not always easy. So I'll try in this podcast. But forgive me if I mix up. But yeah, so to me it starts with a physical process, that I feel something internally. And yeah, immediately after that, I start to think about it very often,

which is also kind of tricky. And what I learned during the years is that the trick for me is to stay close to that feeling. Because the moment I start to fill in too much or think too much, then I'm gone. And then I've lost a feeling. and then gets mixed up with my own things. So, yeah.

But I also know that there are also people who see things or who hear things or people who smell things when they are in contact with other people. So it depends on your way of observing. Yeah. Do you think that that's something that is genetic? Do you think that some people who have the ability to sense things through sight or smell? Is that like a genetic thing? Or do you think it's more of like something that is a learned behavior or both?

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. Maybe I don't know enough about genetics. Don't pin me on that one. But yeah, I'm thinking about way, for example, my parents observe or notice things. I think it kind of works the same. I should ask them. That's an interesting question.

Yeah. I often think that it's something that, and I'm not a geneticist, I have no idea, this is just me with a hunch. But it seems to me like, I think that there are similarities in families where, you know, I hate to compare families to like dog breeds or something like that. But, you know, it seems that like certain families have certain traits to them. And maybe that's, you know, a genetic code or, you know, when you think about generational trauma, We can see that in people's genetics. So might it be possible, too, that the same sort of generational trauma, might there be some sort of generational gifts that happen throughout the genes?

Or maybe that's just the ACTG on this side of the thing over here or something like that. But in my opinion, I would say it can be at least decorated by the genetic code, I would say. But yeah, I like that idea of sensitivity. And I never had heard the way you would put it until I began reading your website and started going through the themes about being able to pick up things in, you know, explain to sensitivity like that. But it makes sense when you look at a tuning fork, you could bring the tuning forks together and they kind of come together.

It's interesting to think about. So what was new to you about that? I'm curious. Well, there was a lot of new things. And what really got me thinking was, what I had what I had touched upon when we first started talking. I do a lot of interviews with people who heal in different ways, whether it's somatic healing or psychiatrist or psychedelic therapy.

And I've begun talking, like for some reason, I got way off on this Canada kick world. I was talking to all these people from Canada. And, you know, there was like just a little bit of difference. And it was, it was quaint. It was different. And it was different than the people that I spoke with. And so when I saw your website,

It originally came up in all Dutch, I believe, was like the, was the language. And, you know, I started looking at the, I'm like, wow, this isn't, I don't speak Dutch, obviously, but I started looking at the way it was laid out. And then I saw that there was a button for English on there. And I got really interested because it made me wonder, wow, here's a person who's doing a lot of healing, but they do it in two different languages. And that, to me, kind of grabbed hold of me. And I was like, wow, I wonder if they use the.

the same techniques in different languages. I wonder, is that even possible to use the same techniques in different languages? Because different languages use different words or different placeholders to explain an experience. And so then I went through the themes and it got me going down the ideas of, you know, traditional marriage versus non-monogamous. And I'm like, I bet you, I bet you that there's more non-monogamous relationships in Europe, in Europe than there is in America. And I wonder if that has to do with the language.

And what I did is language have to do with culture. And like, so that's kind of what started grabbing me. And then after that one thing grabbed me, all these little hooks just got in. And I started going up on these tensions. So let me start off with the first part. When you speak two language and you speak them fluently,

and that's a beautiful thing. What are some of the similarities and differences that you have found when you are coaching people in different languages? Hmm. I don't think about that. Yeah. Because it's something I don't think a lot about myself. So that's interesting.

Well, the first thing is that to me, well, I'm a native speaker in Dutch. So I have to take a few extra steps the moment I work in English. I notice that gets easier the more you do it. But still, it's not my native language. So I have to think about it. And yeah, it's true that, in every language you have different terms and different approaches but I think the techniques and the way I work is the same are the same and because the way I

observe is the same in in Dutch and English there's no language there it starts by the translation of what I feel and what I observe so that's where the tricky part comes in where I have to think okay is this yeah is this okay but the thing is it is an interesting thing because I also work a lot with expats who aren't native English speakers either. So they also have to think. So sometimes that is getting in between and that is bothering. But overall, it's working pretty well. I think, yeah. Yeah, I think that it would, you know, it almost calls for more time to thoroughly think through what it is you want to get across. And sometimes that's one of the most important things

possible. Sometimes people just throw things out there without really thinking about them. And if you have to think in one language and then translate that idea into another language, it's almost like you're thinking about it twice and having the ability to, you know, if you think about something twice, it's almost like seeing it from two different angles, which gives you a unique perspective on it. So yeah, it's a fascinating thing to think about. Yeah, it's true. And I think that the moment I talk in English, I have to like say, look at it. from different perspectives. But it also makes me think about the words even more.

So maybe, yeah, I don't know if it's more accurate in English because of that. It can be the case, you know. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, I feel that, you know, I had read this quote to you in the beginning, but I'm going to read it again because I think the audience will like it. And the quote is from, I don't have the book in front of me, but here it is. A basic problem in understanding ongoing human thought has to do with the fact that the inevitability,

that we inevitably rely on some aspect of language to determine the nature of private experience. It's amazing to me to think about how beautiful language is and how our language as human sets us apart from so many other animals and so many other, from the rest of nature in a weird sort of way, but it's also so limiting because you can't, it's very difficult. just this idea of subjectivity or trying to explain a private experience to someone else is a very difficult thing to do what do you think that communication and language might be one of the biggest problems in in relationships hmm yeah well yeah first of all i think you're you're completely right that the moment you try you try to express your experiences yeah an extra layer gets added and it gets messy.

But what I do think is that, I mean, if you look at people who are passionate, what they say is filled with meaning and it's filled with their experience, and you feel that. But the moment someone tells you a story, that's just a story or is just a rational thing, you also sense that. To me, that's a very interesting thing. And I also use that in my practice a lot. So the moment I feel that someone is just rationally telling me some pretty story,

I don't feel it. And I'll give that back to them and we'll talk about it. And I think that that's the same in a lot of relationships. I think people use a lot of words, but they say, they don't say that much. That is so true. That is very true. Yeah. Yeah.

It was quite a challenge for me to see, okay, what am I doing there? And I use my own body, for instance, to sense if I'm saying something, meaningful or if I'm just blabbering. So the moment I feel that I'm still connected to my body and then have a conversation, I have a completely different conversation than when I'm just working too hard or trying too hard or make a pretty story. That doesn't work. What is it? Can you explain like what do you mean when you say when you feel connected to your body? What is that? Can you explain that? Yeah, that's interesting. It's so novel by now. So I have to think, how do I do that?

I don't know. Do you have experience when you walk on the street and you have to go somewhere and you're in a hurry? It feels like you're walking three steps before you in front of your body. That's the feeling. So in the moment you're in a conversation and you feel like, hey, I'm not feeling my body. For instance, if body language is an important one. If people try too hard or work too hard, all the energy goes to the front of their bodies.

They start to lean forward. Their breath goes up. Their shoulders go up. That's the moment where you lose your own body. So the moment you're also able to feel your back, for instance, and connect to that. Something completely different happens in the way you feel and the way you talk. And I realize that it might sound very vague when I tell this because it's my experience. So, yeah.

No, it makes sense. Recognize it or is it completely new to you? No, I do. I see it for me, the way I experience it. Like, I do a lot of driving. And sometimes I can drive from my house to my work and not even realize that I got there. Yeah. And it's like, I don't even remember passing the Costco.

I don't remember that, you know. And it's just, it's this idea of. I don't think it's hyper focus because I'm not really focused on anything. I'm just kind of on autopilot in a weird sort of way. And I'm just going. And it's when I'm in an in-depth conversation and I'm trying to make eye contact with people and I am interested and I'm like locked in and it, I can feel my heart. I can feel my blood kind of moving through my body a little bit, you know, where I know where I know where my big toe is. You know, I know where my knee is because I can, I can sense it right there.

And so that's how I kind of, I kind of. I plug into the body awareness factor of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A thing that fascinates me, by the way, and I don't have an answer for that. Because what you just told me about when you're driving, right? Yeah. The thing that pops up in my head is, where are you then?

Where's your consciousness if you drive and you're not aware of it? That's, I don't know. That's the kind of thing I really like to think about. How does that work? And I actually, I have no idea, but I don't know how you feel about that. there was a great gosh i can't think of who it was but there was a there's a great story where this gentleman goes and he meets this guru and and he um he finally gets the opportunity to meet this to meet this great guru and he's been thinking about his his thoughts like he's he has

one question and he goes and he asks the guru for can you give me the ultimate meditation and the ultimate meditation from this guru is, where are you between two thoughts? You know, and it reminds me of that. Like, that's such a good one. It's like, where are you between two thoughts? So that's my gift to everybody listening. Like, take a few moments after this podcast and just ask yourself when you're laying a bit, where are you between two thoughts?

Which, you know, here's another, staying with the question and the ideas of language and thinking. Here's one that's kind of been on my mind. and I want to throw it your way to see what you have and think about it. It seems to me that in the West or that in today's world of Western thought, we seem to emphasize verbal or language processes as being a higher order than auditory or visual imagery in adult thinking. And as I've gone over this a few times in my head, you know, and I'm a big fan of psychedelics.

And in psychedelics, you begin to see these geometrical images. And do you think it's possible that maybe we need to see these abstract geometrical images in order to solve complex problems? So I guess there's two questions in there. The first question would be, do you believe that in the West that we have emphasized verbal and language processes over auditory and visual imagery? That'll be the first question. Maybe we can start there. Yeah, I would like to add another layer. Yes, please do it.

The whole energy is also a very important part of that. Energy and what you pick up in people, it's not just auditory or visual. So it's also sensing things. That's an important layer. And I think, yes, there is a lot of attention for language. And it makes sense because we have to, yeah, say what we mean by using language. So you need to use it. But I think it could help if people also realize that

there's another part and that's the visual and the auditive and but also the energetic or yeah whatever to call it then that part and I think it's it makes it your your experience it your experience and your way of expressing that way more meaningful if you can also use those things those tools yeah but in your opinion is you do you think there's there's too much attention for the, as you call it, visual or for the language, sorry, and not enough attention for the visuals? Yeah, I think that the idea of language is so analytical. And sometimes we get caught up, you know, just dissecting everything.

It's like a scalpel. And we use language to constantly break ideas down smaller and smaller and smaller. And if you look at the world today, like I think we are a wash and specialization. And I think that that has to do with our language. capabilities. Like we have doctors that study the right ventricle on people with blonde hair and blue eyes that are under the age of 40, you know, but like I think that when we use the analytical scalpel, which is our language, we get away from the hole. And it seems to me like so many people aren't even communicating, even though we have so many words and we have such an

incredible language that can really pinpoint things. You know, if you're just pinpointing something in the middle of nowhere. Like, no one can understand it. And I think we've almost gotten completely away from visual imagery. Like, what does it mean when you see a, you know, some sort of three-dimensional or a tesseract or some sort of weird cube-like structure? And you see all the points on there. I think once you begin thinking about these abstract geometrical images, all of a sudden,

you begin thinking about how to solve problems in a different way. And we've gotten just sort of. so tunnel vision, so linear that we've forgotten about that. I love what you said about energy, too. I hadn't thought too much about that, but you're right. That's a major part of communication. If I talk to someone or sometimes my wife will talk to me and my face will flush because I'm a little bit embarrassed or whenever we find ourselves in those types of situations where maybe you get goosebumps, that seems to me to be like a really raw and powerful form of communication. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of people are not aware of the compass that is.

Because imagine going to a party, you step into the room, and you immediately sense if there's something off. Yeah. And what the vibe is there. And that's a lot of people are not aware of that. But the moment you are, you can use that in your own advantage and to help other people. To me, that's really fascinating. Because, yeah, the visual things you just described, that's something I haven't thought about a lot. Because I don't have a lot of experience, no experience with psychedelics.

So it's me, that's completely new. But yeah, but I have the same thing with the thing like energy or sending things. Yeah, I heard another interesting point that there was this, there's this book about smell. And in this book, the guy, the gentleman, I apologize for not having the names of the books. I should have them so people can like read them and stuff. I'll try to get them and put them in the show notes. But in this particular book, this gentleman, was saying a very interesting experiment you can do is you walk into a room and he says we do

this instinctively you walk into a room and a lot of people take a big breath like and like in that breath like you're getting information that you may not know you're getting and like that could be like that's you know that could be complementary to the energy like you're getting information you're getting pheromones like this person over here is probably a weirdo or this person over here is attracted to me or, you know, whatever it is. It's, and it's interesting to me because this type of communication, whether it's energy, whether it's imagery or whether it's olfactory, at least where I live, kids aren't getting taught that kind of stuff or I was never taught that kind of stuff. It seems we could live in almost a different world if we began teaching these ideas of communication

at an earlier age. What do you think about that? Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the same goes for something like emotions. We don't teach kids how to deal with whatever they feel in school. We teach them math and language and that's also useful. Nothing wrong with that, but I think a very important part is missing there. Yeah, I would have loved to have learned that as a kid, how to deal it. I did it in when I got older, but yeah, it would have been useful. And but at the other hand, I think language is also providing a lot of safety for a lot of people because we all like order and we like to create some order in the chaos. And the moment you don't have that or when you're not able to describe something,

it also triggers fear. And people usually don't like to feel fear. They want to get rid of that. And what they do is they start to think even more. They start to create more order or, yeah. Fear is a very interesting. thing to me, how that works and how people deal with that or don't deal with it. Yeah, let's talk about that.

Fear is, do you think fear is the ultimate motivator? Oof, the ultimate motivated. I don't know if ultimate's the right word, but it's a very powerful one. To me, it's the opposite. Okay. Actually, I think for a long time, I made choices out of fear. So I tried to prevent things from happening because I was afraid of what might happen. But I started to realize that I want to do that anymore.

I want to make choices out of love and out of the feeling of, yeah, I want to live. I don't want to be fearful all the time. So to me, that's the motivating. But yeah. But I do notice that a lot of people are driven by fear or that the choices they make are driven by fear. And I think that's a shame. But it's also a very scary thing to dive into. People usually don't want to feel fear or jealousy or sense.

sadness or so what we do we try to distract ourselves or judge ourselves for feeling it or whatever your way is but we don't want to feel it and i really think that it helps a lot if you start doing that if you stand still for a while and feel whatever you feel yeah i agree it even in my life to this time like i still feel as if i need to think about decisions so that i don't act in fear or I don't live in fear. I try not to and I try to make decisions based on doing the right thing instead of doing things right. But fear is all around us and it seems to be it goes hand in hand with workplace productivity. Fear goes hand in hand with, you know, creating a material life. Fear goes hand in hand with promotions. And it's it's really something that's,

surrounds us and it's very easy to get caught in there. Can you share, I mean, if you're willing to, how did, what was it that allowed you to move past that? Was there an event or you said, I just finally had enough or, you know, what, how did you do that? What did it look like when you decided to not live in fear? Well, I think it started with curiosity. So I'm always curious and I want to learn. So especially when things are hard. I don't know. I have a thing for that. But, Well, I think a huge turning point and that was something that happened in my relationship a few years back. And then all my fears came together. Everything that I was afraid of for years happened.

And I still felt, hey, I'm still standing. Everything went wrong and I'm still here. So there was a real insight for me. Like, okay, apparently I was afraid, yeah, without reason or I shouldn't have done that. or to me that was a trigger to challenge my own fears to see okay and i still do feel fear of course sure i'm only human but i always try to look inward the moment that happens or when i feel jealousy or yeah whatever it is so connected to fear yeah do you think that that's something we're conditioned to respond to it it seems at least in the in the public schools that i went to you know we had this

sort of Pavlovian dog situation where you sit in a class and an authority figure writes on the board. There's all these whistles and you have to get a pass if you want to go to the bathroom. You know, it's like this incredible ongoing process of stimulus response. And I think that that is something that breeds fear into people. And then the kid comes home from school and you get a bad grade. Your dad wants to spank you. And, you know, so like it seems that a lot of people are brought up into a system of fear. Is that is that something that you have noticed?

Hmm. Yeah, it's funny. And I've never thought of it like that because, because is it a system of fear or authority or is that connected or, yeah. I think so. It's not that black and white, I think. Hmm. And yeah. Yeah, it's true.

And yeah, let me think about this. Because a thing like social conventions, there's a lot of fear around that too. So and the question is, what are you really afraid of? I think for a lot of people in the end, the answer is I'm really afraid to be you, despite the fact what others might think about that. And I don't think I've been bothered a lot

by the system in my life. I'm very sensitive to authority. I don't do well on that. Yeah. either. But I find my way around it. So I'm not fighting it or going in full frontal, but I just, yeah, do my own things anyway. That's basically what I'm doing. But I don't know if that's a, I don't know if that's an answer to your question. And I don't know if that's a way of dealing with fear or just me being stubborn. Yeah, I think, I think, I think one of the first

times that I realized my relationship with fear is that one of the biggest fears for me was the fear of like not being loved, you know, maybe people won't love me if I do this or maybe in that, that was probably something that I had to work hard on. You know, I'm kind of a people pleaser and I want to make everybody happy or make them laugh and I'm sure that that has a lot to do with the way I was brought up or, but it seems to be one of the first. first things that I was able to kind of confront is, okay, what do you mean you don't want to be loved? Like, just the people in your life that are around you were going to like you for you. And once they do that, you don't have to worry about that anymore.

So that was kind of one of the ways where I finally began to break through different fears and and be able to. I also had a big problem with authority. Like, I hate people telling me what to do. And I don't know if that's just something that's encoded in me or it just seems so petty to me like, who are you to tell me what to do? Do you know, like I can make up my, I'm a big boy, dang it, you know, or you know, put people whatever people talk about. But it's an interesting concept to think about. Yeah, and I think it's interesting what you just said about knowing that it should

be good enough who you are, right? But you can rationally know that, but still your whole system can scream no and can be very fearful. And I think the only way of learning and learning that and build up trust is by experience and not by words. And yeah, because, yeah, definitely for me too, abandonment is a very tricky. That's super scary. And on the one hand, you know you're always by yourself and you have to deal with things yourself, but you're also human and you also want to connect to other people. You want to feel that you belong.

And the tension that comes with that, to me, that's very interesting. Yeah, sometimes I'm sorry. No, yeah, the questions how to stay autonomous and stay, yeah, be the individual you are, but still connect to other people without losing yourself. Like that is an interesting question. Like, how do you stay close to yourself and, you know, not lose yourself in someone else or lose yourself or identity to the other? because that happens a lot in relationships. It seems that in a lot of relationships that one person seems to dominate and the other person just becomes almost an object in some weird sort of ways.

Have you noticed that? Oh, yeah, a lot. Yeah, and what happens, and I've experienced myself personally too. So, yeah, I know what I'm talking about in that way. But I think what happens a lot is that two people meet as two individuals, and they like each other for who they are. would it meet. But the longer they are together, the more they'll adjust and melt together and lose parts of themselves that are actually pretty important. But they think, ah, no, let's not

do that because it might upset the other person or it might cost some, yeah, some stuff. And it's actually a shame because I think in the long run, that's also the fact that makes people think, ah, we're like brother and sister now or the spark is gone or, yeah, for the, for course because you gave away the most important parts of yourself that the other person initially in initially fell for and sometimes it's very I mean in the work I do with couples it's very interesting to yeah to peel those layers off and to see hey who are you the two of you as individuals and the moment they start to see that again something happens between the two of them and the spark gets back so

that's interesting sometimes people people just forget get. What are some kind of questions that or what are some kind of tools that you use to help people recover who they are? One I like very much is allowing, inviting people to dream, dream big. Because what happens a lot is that people immediately think, yes, but I can do that because this and this and this. So they start to dream and feel. who they are and what they really want, but they immediately make it smaller because of, yeah, because of what, because of the other person or they want to afford tension. So that's a big one. And then working with the body is also an important one because sometimes people are just

in their heads all the time. And your thoughts are hardly ever about here now. It's always about the past or the future. And people get lost and they forget about who they are and what they want in this moment. And yeah, so those are two important ones. And just mirroring what I see is also a good one because sometimes people really don't realize who they are. The moment you give that back to them, and it's really helpful. It's fascinating.

I like the idea of asking someone to dream big. In some ways, when someone begins doing that, and if they do dream smaller, it's almost like you've uncovered the resentment that they have for their partner. I can't do that because of this, you know. And then you're like, oh, okay, now I can see what's happening here. That's a great way to do that and uncover it. It seems sad, though, in some ways. Yeah, it is sad.

Yeah. But at the same time, well, it makes sense. The moment people come to me, it's not because their relationship is fantastic and everything is well, right? So what happens very often is that the moment they come in, they've been focusing on the negative parts for months. And they basically forget about the positive. sides of it. So it can be really helpful to you to ask a question like, hey, how did you guys meet? They haven't thought about it for years, probably, because they've been focusing on the negativity

so much. And that's also a way of dreaming, yeah. It brings me to this idea of patterns when you talk about how did you guys meet. It's almost like you're putting on a love song for them because it goes back and it forces them to replay this idea or this beautiful moment and it's probably a off most of the stories i hear about people meeting are usually pretty fun stories you know and everyone has a smile on their face and they're talking about it and you can almost see them rekindle this memory of love and flirtation and it seems it must be pretty rewarding when you can talk some people talk to some people and help them reimagine their relationship yeah and just what you just described that's that's what happens in in the session sometimes

that you people start to talk about that and when they met and how they went and just this spark in their eyes is there and they start to realize hey wait a minute you're actually quite a great person they forgot about that so that's yeah i think that's and and to me it's very well because it's a very intimate moment and i think it's very intimate for me to you yeah that i'm allowed to be there I think that's fantastic. Yeah. That is an interesting moment and not only interesting, but, you know, sometimes runaway intimacy can be an issue, right? Like, it's a weird situation when you are the arbiter of their intimacy.

Like that brings up some interesting ideas. Yeah, and at the same time, people say that a lot that they really like that because it takes them out of the dynamic they have had a whole. home. So it creates some distance for them between their situation and how they feel and how they would immediately respond to it at home. So what they often say is that, yeah, at home we would be yelling at each other right now, but now we're really listening. Yeah, to me, that's super rewarding. If I'm able to get them at that point, that's great. Yeah, it's fascinating to me. on your website, one of the things that you do is you work with monogamous couples and then people that have more of an open relationship. Is it like that seems interesting to me because I'm more of a traditional guy where I've been married for almost 15 years now.

And relationships are very difficult. And especially if you want to rekindle them and you want them to remain to have the passion and the love and you guys grow together. I can't imagine, like, I can barely juggle two balls. I can't imagine trying to juggle five. Like, it just seems, it's, are there, like, what are some of the differences and what are some of the similarities when you deal with those two types of relationships? I think five would be a bit too much, by the way. Yeah, me too.

Yeah, but I think for a lot of people, it starts by the idea of loving multiple people. Like, if you look at your kids or your friends, you, you love multiple people. But the moment people start to put it in the box of a relationship, then it becomes fuzzy and people say, no, I could never do that. And they can still relate to the idea of really connecting to multiple people. And I'm not saying that everyone should get in a non-monogamous relationship at all.

I don't think that would be a good idea. But I do think it's interesting to explore it a bit. Yeah. And the similarities, yeah, well, it, it, our relationships you're in and with yourself but also with the other person so it triggers a lot so in that way it doesn't differ a lot i think from a monogamous relationship it's just yeah multiplied basically it's like this yeah it is and it's hard work sometimes because it triggers a lot and you have to be able to to deal with your anxiety and you have to be willing to be

very fair and honest about yourself and go inward. Otherwise, you can't do it, I think. What I like about non-monogamous relationships and what is at the same time the hardest thing is that you can create it in the way you like the best. So every non-monogamous relationship is unique. And that's great because it gives you the space to create your relationship the way you want in. But at the other hand, you can't compare it to other relationships because it's always a bit different. and you get different challenges.

And so for a lot of people, that's challenging. And I'm not saying that I, I don't, I'm not in the illusion that I know how people should do it at all. Right. But I do like to explore with them how they can do it the best way for that. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, when I think of some of the issues that a traditional marriage would have, whether it's with one person being. very dominant and one person not being dominant.

Or you think of like a really good relationship where two people are compromising. And one time this person is winning. I don't know if winning is the right word. But I mean, you know, these people are really compromising and they have a passionate relationship. And then it just, it's fascinating to me to see that people can have these different types of relationships. Maybe it's, were non-monogamous relationships something that were more prevalent in the past? Or are they more prevalent now? Or do you have any idea?

Oh, I actually don't know that. Exactly. I do know that it's, well, notice it in my practice that the younger generations are thinking more about this. They are starting to think about the social conventions around relationships. Like, okay, we are all thought that a relationship is between. between two people and it should look like this and this and this. And I do notice that younger people are starting to question that and starting to ask questions like, yeah, but why?

Can't we do it differently? And it makes sense because it, yeah, I think the whole culture is changing. And so the view on relationships is also changing a bit. But I also understand the safety that a monogamous relationship gives. and I know both sides because I've been in a monogamous relationship for a long time. And I really appreciated that. And then it turned around and now I'm in a non-monogamous relationship. So I can relate to both sides.

What about when, do you think that one of those relationships is better for like a child? It seems to me like a traditional, and this is because I'm totally biased. But I don't know. I'm not judging anybody. But it seems to me that that would be a pretty difficult. idea for a child to comprehend. And might it be better for a children to have a traditional relationship? I think that depends completely on how you deal with it.

Because, yeah, what I noticed with my own case, the more normal it is for me and my partner, the more normal it is for them. And I think it's very important to be open because kids sense things and they know things. I mean, they can feel it if something's off. and they also do that in monogamous relationships. So I think what goes for both types of relationships

is that you should be very open and honest towards your kids and acknowledge whatever they feel. And so I think that, yeah, in a monogamous relationship, you can screw that up, but you can also do that in a non-monogamous relationship. So I don't know if that says anything about the type of relationship. Yeah, I don't know either. Yeah, I'm curious, what is it triggering you?

thought of a non-monogamous relationship? Well, my family, my parents got divorced when I was like 11 or 12 probably and both of them I think were seeing other people. And I never, I never really knew that until later, but looking back on it, like all the signs were there and stuff. And I I spent a lot of time with my aunt and uncle who were products of the 50s. You know, he had like jeans and like a white t-shirt and she stayed home and and i i really soaked that in and i it may not to me monogamy and non-monogamy became synonymous with stability and instability and i just i just anchored those two things together i realize they don't have to be that way but for me that's those was what i anchored it to and so i think that that that's why i think that the way i do i mean

being a product of my environment and some of the trauma that I saw there, the heartache and the jealousy and, you know, the selfishness sometimes. Like that to me is what anchored it there. And so when I hear about these different kinds of relationships, it's interesting to hear about and talk about, but I don't have any experience with it. Yeah. Yeah, but I think the things you just said, it's about how your parents, in this case, dealt with him. Sure.

And I think the moment you are willing to talk about it and be open and to, yeah, to show your kids that you can do that. And I think that's very meaningful. So, yeah, what I do personally is that the moment they have questions, I'll just answer them. And of course, I'm not going into very intimate details. Right, right. It's not for them. But if they ask me how this works and how love works for me or how, yeah, I'll, answer them. And I'm not afraid to show them that it can be hard sometimes. Because, yeah,

some people say, yeah, you should never fight in front of your kids. Yeah, I really don't believe in that. I think there's nothing wrong with having a fight in front of your kids as long as you also show them that you make up afterwards and how you do and how you do that. Because then you also teach your kids that it is, it's okay to have a fight every now and then. But you can also teach them how to do that in a constructive way. And I think the same goes for a tension that happens in a non-monogamous relationship. I'm not trying to prevent my kids from seeing the difficulties as long as I'm able to talk about it with them.

Yeah, as long as you can show an example of success, you know, I think, I think that there's there there. I know a lot of people. And where I grew up, there was a lot of fighting done in front of kids, but not a whole lot of making up in front of kids. And that is something that, you know, you're teaching the kid like, yeah, you just fight, and then that's just how it is. And you never make up. But, you know, that's something I tried to work on in my relationship is that, okay, look, obviously, everybody fights. My friend has a good quote. He says, if, if no one's arguing, then someone's bullshit. You know what I mean? And so it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And so it is. It's important to whether your kids watching from across the hallway, you know, or you're right there in the midst of it, wherever they are. And it may, it may take a day or it may take hours or it may take two days. But eventually, if you're, when you're ready to clear it up, you know, I think it's important that the child be there so that they understand, oh, they still love each other. They still and they found a strategy to work better. And now everything is good again. You know, it's a lot of people don't, don't do that. they have tough times or they find themselves without any choices.

And I guess when you don't have any choices, you don't have any options. So it's an interesting concept to think about. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people fighting and being angry is connected to fear and losing the connection. But the moment you can disconnect that, then you can show them, okay, you can have an argument, but you can also reconnect after that. Yeah.

I think that's a good way of doing that. You know, I've read a lot about coming from a family that was like a broken home, I found myself, whether it was socioeconomic or it was learned behavior, I found myself around a lot of other kids that were also from broken homes. And you find yourself maybe dating a part of the term of broken home. And all of a sudden, you see these cyclical patterns that happen. And it almost seems unfair in a way that a lot of people who come from broken homes end up in that same cycle or abuse is another way. Some people that find themselves in abusive relationships actively seek out people that are similar to that.

What do you think is the rate of people that get through that? Do you think 50% of the people that are in those relationships stay or is it higher or is it lower? Do you have any idea? I wouldn't add to put a rate on that. That's tricky. I have no idea. But what I do notice, and I see that love with my clients too, is that the moment people start to get aware of the patterns that exist in the families,

or there's always a point when someone in the line decides, okay, enough is enough. I'm going to break this line. I think that's the turning point. And, yeah, I think that's not black and white either, because there's a lot of culture around that and conventions. And, well, like you said, the family you grew up in, it all adds up to the way you look at relationships, for instance,

or the way you deal with things. It influences it a lot. But, yeah, I do think that it's, what's very important is that people reconnect to what they really want. And then they'll start to feel that it's not fear they want. It's love or life. want. And the moment they have that, that feeling, then you can work with it. Yeah, it's interesting to see the different ways that the patterns that we have. Like, for example, you know, some people

that are alcoholics, when they stop drinking, they have what's called like a moment of clarity. Or they go, oh, my God, I realize I'm hurting people. Oh, my God, I realize what I've done. Oh, my God. It's just this, this passing glance. And that allows. them to keep moving forward. I think the same thing happens in abusive relationships or broken homes or any sort of pattern. Like if you're aware and you've begun changing because you've had enough, then I think you get that moment of clarity, whether it's in an abusive relationship or you're beginning to talk to a counselor or something like that. And I, do you think that there's something that specifically ignites that breaking the line or that moment of clarity? Is it

What do you think? I think what happens a lot of it, because if you're brought up with some ways of dealing with your emotions, for instance, then that's the way you know how to deal with things, right? You don't know that there's another option. But the moment people meet inspiring people or it can be in a really small thing. It can be one sentence that makes you realize, oh, wait a minute, this, I can do this in a completely different way. But it can also be a friend who says, okay, wait a minute, this isn't right. I think there are multiple options.

But I think it starts by you seeing that there's another option, that there's an alternative. And for a lot of people, that ignites the whole change. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a big fan. I know I spoke a little bit about language being the higher order of things. And in some ways, I think it is. I love language. I love to hear people speak.

I love to try to make the way I speak powerful or engaging or interesting or fun. And you could do that with cadence or you could talk it with your hands or whatever. But I'm curious to get your opinion. Do you think that you can tell family dysfunction by people's language patterns? Oof. Bad and dysfunction by people's language. Yeah, well, yeah. Maybe it's the same as with body language.

Yeah. Yes. When you're afraid of something or you can see that in someone's body. So I can imagine that it's also in someone's voice and in the words they use. What I noticed with some clients is that they are very anxious and are very afraid of not knowing. And they just talk a lot. So they use a lot of words or they use, you know, that's also a way of checking in with that and to see, hey, wait a minute, what's happening there.

So it can be a trigger, yeah, definitely. But yeah, yeah, so it might be the same. with body language. Yeah. What do you think? I do. I think that, I think that,

and I know this because this is what I do. Like I, sometimes I'll say things that are pretty inappropriate and I think they're really funny. When I got married, my wife's like,

what is wrong with you? Like, why would you say that? I'm like, that's super funny. And she's like, no, no, it's not funny at all. It's kind of, it's kind of disrespectful. You know,

and then we get into this conference, conversation of like, well, I don't, can you help me understand why it's disrespectful? And then like, she'll tell me, well, you know, when you say that, other people will think this. And I'm like, is that what other people would think or is that what you think? Yeah, exactly. And then it's like, she's like, yeah, that's what I think and everybody else over there probably thinks that. How do you know? I can see it in their face. And then I'll look at their face and sometimes I'll be like, she's totally right. She's totally right. She's totally right. Oh my God, what a dummy I am.

But it takes that idea of having someone you love, be honest with you and explain. Like, look at that. And then I realize like, oh, my God, now I can begin to tell by my language patterns that maybe sometimes, you know, I am a person who is way too flirty or I am a person that's like this. Like that, that's disrespectful in a way. And so I came up on that hunch of like, wow. Yeah, you can tell. It may not be 100% accurate, but you can, I think a good way to sum it up is, if you want to know what someone's thinking, listen to the words they're using. And if you do that, if you become a better listener, at least I have found if I become a better listener, I can really become a better person who is willing to help or a conversationist or understand that way.

Yeah. What are some things you see in body language that you can use to this? that's a tell for people. Well, sometimes it's the obvious that when people cross their arms and say, yeah, no, but I'm a very open person. And I think, yeah, and they cross their legs. They cross their arms. Their breath goes up and he says, no, I'm always very open.

I can talk about everything. I hide nothing. I think, I don't know. Yeah. But a thing like the breath, that's also an interesting one, because it, it's, it's, tells you exactly what people are feeling. So the moment people are relaxed, their breath is down, and they are able to take long, deep breaths, and it's fine. At the moment, people get panicky, and they don't even realize it half the time. The breath goes out, or it's very short,

or they're not even aware that they have it. So the moment you, and I ask them a question, like, hey, how's your breath? They're like, oh, wait a minute, do I even have one? So that's, yeah, that's the kind of thing you can use or the mimic in their face or, yeah, it's all kinds of things. The moment someone's constantly plucking on their clothing or it shows a lot. Yeah. It's those, it's those signs that people are, I guess people are constantly communicating if you know what to look for. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that there was, I don't know the exact rate. I don't know if you want any rates, but yeah, that people are, I think like 70 or 80% of your first impression is based on body language. When your first impression, not on when someone says or how they smell, maybe unconsciously how they smell. But yeah, a lot is about body language. And people immediately decide, okay, we're going to be friends and we're not. It's fascinating how that works. It means, yeah, yeah, how connection between people work.

that's a very interesting thing to me. Like, why is it that with some people, you can immediately feel, hey, wait a minute, there's something happening here, there's a spark, or there's a connection, and with other people, people you don't, you don't feel anything. I'm fascinated by that and how that works and what we base that on. What do you think we base it on? Yeah, and I think the same goes for this is not that black and white. It's probably what you sense, what you smell, what someone's,

says the tone of their voice also does a lot. It's also an interesting one. But, yeah, that's for you. I think it's fascinating too. I think it's on a on like some sort of a pheromonal genetic reproduction level. I think you're automatically seeing if you're compatible with that person. I have no idea if that's true, but it's like, yes, I could probably have a baby with this person, you know, or this person would be a good dad or this should be a good mom. Maybe that's just a total guy point of view. I don't know, but, you know, I think that there is some form of attraction.

Like, you know, sometimes when we, when men and women are different, I think that, I think that there's this thing called hypergamy, right? Like a woman is definitely looking for someone that can be a good provider for her. And a man is definitely looking for a woman who's very attractive for him. And there may be some differences there. But I think that that on a genetic level definitely plays a role, right? Would you think so? Isn't that black and white?

Women also like attractive people, right? Yeah, yeah, that's true. It is true. I don't know. I think it's, it definitely can't be black and white. There's got to be some gray in there and different levels. and probably different, probably a lot. Like, I'm sure your age has a lot to do with it.

I'm sure where you're at and life has a lot to do with it. I'm sure the responsibilities you have have a lot to do with it. But there is that initial moment, right, where you meet someone, you're like, yep, we're going to be friends. Yep, I like this person. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a big part of that is unconscious. Yeah. We have no idea why it happens, but it happens.

Yeah. But still, I have no idea what the answer is, but I still don't like to think about it. Maybe it's like attracts like water seeks its own level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It must be it. It's always the easy answer, right?

I'm just kidding. It's always, yeah. What role do you think spirituality has to play in relationships? I think that completely depends on how interested you are in it personally, right? Yeah, I think there are couples who don't, do anything with spirituality and we are perfectly fine. But I think if the one person is very much into it and the other person isn't, that might be trickier. That might be a challenge. But it can also work. So it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's black and wide. It completely

depends on the person. To me, it's very interesting and very, very important. But it also has got to deal with my own personal development and yeah that got really mixed up with spirituality so to me it's important yeah do you think people that have a spiritual connection have a deeper relationship than people that don't have a spiritual connection hmm I don't know if it's about spirituality actually but I do think it's about connecting on a deep emotional level that's important and yeah some people might call that spirituality so So this is where the meaning of words also comes in. What does a word like spirituality mean to you?

That's where it starts, I think. Yeah. To me personally, it's connected to my emotions too, but also to being aware of the fact that there's more than our earthly life. And that there's more. There's something bigger and what it is exactly, I don't know. But yeah. But I think it starts by the meaning you put to the word spirituality.

How are you describing? I would say that spirituality is the idea that you're part of something bigger than something bigger than not only you imagine, but bigger than you can't imagine. And I think that that idea of spirituality allows for another dimension in a relationship. I think that if both people can dream big, like if you don't, if you allow for spirituality, then you allow for miracles. There doesn't have to be Jesus walking on water. It can be, oh my God, we had no money and we made it. We made our rent this month. Like that could be the miracle, you know, or like, yeah, there's something bigger that loves us, you know.

But there's this idea that both of you believe in something bigger than the both of you and you're both a part of it. And I think that that allows for a different dimension in the relationship. That allows for the subject, object, and the observer. And you get to play all three roles when you have a spiritual connection, whether it's to God or whether it's to the planet or whatever entity you want to place in that higher order of being. You know, I've adopted the theory that you don't come into this world, you come out of it. And that the earth grows people, like an apple tree grows apples. And I found that that has given me a really nice.

perspective on relationships and how I relate to other people and the world. And I guess that would be my definition of spirituality. Can you explain that a bit more that we come out of the world? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's, it seems to me that there's two major, um, ways in which people see the world. One is the ceramic model of the universe. And the ceramic model of the universe is God is a potter, you know,

Jesus was the son of a carpenter and you create the world around you and you go out there and you make your own way and you, you, when times get tough, you build the, build the walls up and you fight the demons that come down and you are the vast product of your decision makings and you find your own way and, you know, you have lived by the hero's journey and you've created these things for yourself. And the other way is like the is more of like the fully automatic version where like, you know, you come into this world as part of this world and you play a part the same way that the tree produces apples or the same way that the hummingbird pollinates the papaya tree. So too are you creating life by having relationships? You're pollinating relationships. And when you look at for me anyways, it's like. As above so below, I think you can see yourself in a grain of sand. I think that you can see.

I wrote a book a while back. And in my book, I'll give you the example that I used. Picture a glacier. And on the first day of the sunny spring, like the sunbeam hits the ice in a small little trickle of water. The first trickle of the summer spring allows the water to start falling down the edge of the glacier on the edge of the mountain. And that same little drip follows that little crack in the,

the little crack in the mountain that it's been following for like 30 years. If we personify that drop of water, it's like, oh, it's the first time I'm going down the side of this thing. But that pattern has been happening for years. And let's say that that little drop of water finds itself at like a little pool where all of a sudden the day is done and the clouds come and then it starts to freeze up right there. It sees its existence is over.

unless it's reinforced until it's reinforced tomorrow by a new melt. And pretty soon it finds its way over the top of that glacier and it continues to go down. Like I think that's the same as our life. Like we have been living a similar pattern of life forever, but we don't know because we can only experience it in this time. And when you look at it from that way, like I just, I see it everywhere. I see it in the way that flowers open up at like 45 degrees on my palm tree. Like, how do they know how to do that?

Like, that's magic, you know? And so too is my relationship at work when I get in a fight with my boss. Like, I think that that is something that I'm supposed to be learning right here. That is a test, you know, and why wouldn't it be a task? So does that help explain it a little bit more? Yeah, yeah, I can completely relate because I recognize what you, what you're saying. I can feel super connected to my garden. I want to have a walk in the forest or yeah.

And I think the most, at least for me, the most meaningful moments in my life are when I do feel that deeper connection. And when I do feel that I belong to something bigger or to, I always have to use this image of, of the ocean. It feels like everyone is in the same ocean and my life is just this little wave. And when I'm in the top of that wave, I think, oh, I'm so unique and I have this very individual life. but in the meantime, you're still connected to that bigger part. And to me, that's also very, very comforting, actually. And even when you think of a subject like death or like, for a lot of people, it's super scary to think about that.

For the moment you know, you feel, hey, there's something bigger underneath, and I can rely on that. It makes it way less scary to die, for instance. Yeah. Do you think that there's some sort, like I like to read a lot of biographies. And it seems to me when you read the biographies of people, some of them are really interesting when they talk about the end of their life. And at the end of their life, they never, you know what people never say, I wish I would have made more money. People never say, I wish I would have worked longer hours.

I wish I would have made way more. I wish I would have bought that. You know, what they say is like, I wish I would have been a better dad. I wish I would have been a better husband. I wish I would have spent more time gardening. And so I'm curious. I think that there's some sort of a debate about, you know, the end of life. And what I've heard is that some people believe that there's only, you're only capable of having some thoughts when you're on your deathbed because you've lived a life and you have come to the conclusions and you've had time to know you're going to die.

Now, this, this suggests that you don't die in a car accident or. You know, it's not like some sudden death, but, you know, if you are fortunate enough to live a long life and you know death is coming, do you think that at that point you are privy to thoughts that you could only have at that point? I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I think I understand the question, but it makes me think of a read a lot of books of Irvin Yellow. I don't know if you know if you know it. I don't. Can you, what's his name again?

Yeah, I don't know if it pronounced it, right? but it's irvin i r v i n okay d yes through the dark wood um yeah i know i know staring at the sun is a is a is an important one of his he writes a lot about fear of death for instance and he says that um people who are the most scared on their death bed are the people who have the feeling that they haven't lived a full life have lived full life so they they're basically on not afraid of dying, they are afraid of, yeah, not having a fulfilled life. To me, that's very interesting. I think that that's really true. I worked in a nursing home for quite a few years. And to me, at one point, it was very fascinating to me that even there, people didn't

talk about death a lot, which is quite weird because it's the last part of their life and you would think, okay, this is the chance, take it. But yeah, I think what, what Yalom writes is very true. And I also heard that from a lot of residents there. The people who were very scared with the people who said, I should have connected more. Like you said, I should have connected more to my kids or I should have been a better dad or.

So they have the feeling I didn't live fully. That's creating a lot of fear, I think. I don't know if that's answering your question. Yeah, absolutely it is. It's it just takes me to think about it. Yeah, like I, sometimes I think, when I think about death, especially lately, like I look at the chaos that's happening in the world right now. And I know that the world is always full of chaos, but I look at demographics. And I know that there was a baby boom that happened.

You know, obviously my parents were baby boomers. And it wasn't just in the United States. It seemed to be throughout the Western world. And when I see the chaos is happening right now, Sometimes I think, like, this is a manifestation of the unrealized dreams of the boomers. Like, you have Putin and Trump and Joe Biden and like all these people are like octogenarians. And it's like, gosh, they're just trying to get like five more years out of themselves or like they're trying to remain relevant for this much longer. And like it just seems like we're having to deal with the unrealized dreams of some, a generation of older people. And when I put that into my theory about you come into the. this world, not out of it, like a big portion of us of the world is dying. If you look at the

demographics, like a big portion of us is moving on and there's trauma in death. There's trauma in birth. And when I look at it from that scale, it seems both sad but welcoming in a weird sort of way. Do you think it's possible that we could be, we could be experiencing these generational death of the part of us? Yeah, well, maybe it's related to the whole cycle of life you just described. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, we are in a time where there's a lot of crap happening.

That's a great way to put it. But yeah, maybe that's just the natural dynamic. I mean, there will be, things are always moving. So maybe it's naive, but I somehow have this trust in that cycle. So I don't worry too much. And that's also because I can still connect to that bigger feeling underneath. I always have this image that there are two layers. On the one hand, you have this earthly layer of our egos and us living our lives and having

our jobs and worrying about the small stuff. But underneath, we're all connected to that bigger feeling. And as long as you're able to connect to that, at least for me, that goes for me. As long as I can connect to that, I don't worry too much about what's happening on the earthly level. Yeah, I agree 100%. I'm actually, I think that we are on closer than we've ever been to living life to our fullest. Maybe that's where I'm at in my life. But when I see, even though there's so much propaganda out there and there's so much negativity that seems to be blasted our way, like I see the, I see the.

silver lining. Like I see the world beginning to change in ways that is accelerating for the good. Like I see freedom happening. I see the idea of people beginning to work from home more often. And I see this idea of technology finally beginning to promise people a little bit more freedom. And maybe that's because I live in a rich Western country. That could be it too. you know, I'm sure that there's always the yin and the yang there, but I, I'm, I am excited for the future. And I think that we do have an opportunity. In some ways, I think it's like a birth. Like I see this new hope birthing.

But like all birth, there's a chance of death. But I am excited for the future. Would you say that you're, you're positive about what's to come? That's a very broad question. It is a broad one. Well, for me personally, yes. Okay, good. Yeah, but like I said, there's also a lot of negativity in the world.

And I notice in myself that the moment I focus on that or when I read too much news or when I put all my energy in that, I'll, yeah, it's just training. It's not helping me. So I think the only thing I can do is to work on my own little cycle and circle I have here and to do some good there. And I always like the idea of, what do you call them, ripples. When you have this still lake, there's one drop of water is enough to make the whole lake move, right? Yeah. So I always keep that in mind when I think like, hi, am I contributing enough or is it? I think no.

Just keep it small, do whatever you can, as long as your intention is good, then it will have a good effect. Yeah, I like that. I am. I am. Yeah, on a small level I am And I think that on a bigger level Will be fine too I'm not saying

Yeah, there won't be any fuss Yeah, I agree I think that I like the idea of the The pond The ripples in the pond Is that you know that kind of gets me back to the idea of language Are there the same metaphors in Dutch

As there are in English Or I mean Are there different ones? Are they the same? guess they have different kind of ways to get the meaning across, but would you use that same metaphor in Dutch that you would in English? Yeah, in this case, I would. But of course, you also have sayings in Dutch that don't make any sense in English,

any other way around. So I'm trying to think of one, but I can, yeah. My friend from Sweden, they have a saying that's like, oh, yeah, it's somewhere between the finger and the thumb. And I'm like, what's between the finger and the thumb? I had never heard that before. I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't get it.

The finger and the thumb. Did you find out? Yeah, then he showed me. He's like, it's between there. I'm like, oh, okay, I get it. But I didn't know. He had to like, he had to physically show me. I mean, I don't know what that says about me, but I guess I had to see it.

Yeah. Yeah, I got that image, but what does it mean? What does he say? Well, that's how close it is. Like, oh, we were, he goes, I was in a relationship with the, he goes, I was, I was seeing this girl for a while. I'm like, oh, what happened? He goes, somewhere between the finger and the thumb. And I'm like, what, what is?

And he's like, that's where it was. And I remember just staring at it. I'm like, I don't get it. But it's funny. Like I love hearing the different kinds of language like that and the different ideas. And it's, I don't know, it's beautiful. It's, it kind of, I guess it kind of leads us to another thing that you cover is like life changing questions and the meaning of life. You work a lot in that area or when you have the themes and stuff.

What are some of the life-changing questions that you ask people or people ask you? Well, the thing that people are often struggling with is, what are we here for? And yeah, and it's a big one. I don't have the answer. I really don't have the answer for that. And I don't know if it's the right question, to be honest. Because that question is way too big. And the moment you want to put it in one answer, I don't think there is one answer.

So as long as you're trying to find that one answer, you'll be disappointed and you'll be frustrated. So for me, it's more interesting to cut it up in pieces and take a look at the smaller pieces there. And see, okay, what gives you the feeling that you're meaningful? And for a lot of people, it's in the connection with other people or when they contribute to something or when they do something good for the environment. It can be all sorts of things. But I think people make the question way too big very often. So in that way, it's kind of funny that I put it on my website like that.

Well, yeah, I think it's like a rose in that it attracts people to its fragrance, right? Like, yeah, people want to know that question. They're drawn to it. And then once they are drawn to it, you can reflect it back to them and be like, well, what are you here for? Maybe that's the question. or do you do you do you find yourself using the socratic method are you reflect stuff back to people or do you have a certain style that or do you just a tool bag of different ways you use things yeah i tend to pluck things from all kinds of methods and theory and theory so if i have to describe my method it's tricky i don't know if i can do that but yeah i definitely

reflect to people i asked them a lot of questions um but i also mirror them or i like to challenge people and make them think outside of the box because a lot of people think inside of the box and I like to go around then and even just doing that is triggering a lot very often like like with what we talked about earlier the relationships the moment you start to really ask questions about that and yeah but why do you do it yeah because because this is our relationship is yeah but why you know you can make people think like where did they come from why do they think like that where did they learn that To me, that's, it's interesting to create some oversight and why someone is doing what he or she is doing.

Yeah, I found that why questions and how questions. They, they stop people from answering with like mumbo jumbo. You know, if someone will ask me, why did you do that? Or do you think that's a, you know, you did this wrong and I'll be like, well, how would you do it better? You know, and then it stops people to be like, like, let me think about it. How would I do that better? Or how can you help you? How can I hope you figure this out? It's just a fancy way of, why don't you tell me how to do it differently? Yeah. Yeah, and at the same time, I think we slip into solution mode very easily. Oh, yes.

I always try to prevent people from doing that. So I can ask them, okay, why, but I will also question them about how do you feel right now? What is it triggering you? And what people do is that they check in with that. yeah, I just feel restless. So I should do this and this and this. And then they are in solution mode again. So I always try to pull them back and say, okay, yeah, let's leave the solution out of it for a while and just feel whatever you're experiencing right now because there's a lot of information there and people don't really listen to it and take a good look at it. They immediately respond.

And I think that's a shame. It tells you a lot about yourself and the way you deal with things. if you stand still for a while and really look inward. Yeah, maybe that brings people back to fear again. And then they find themselves fearful of that thing they've been running away from. Yeah, fear, but also not knowing, I think. Sometimes you experience something and you have no idea where it comes from or what to do with it. And if you tell them then, okay, just feel it. That's super scary.

People don't like that. They like to get rid of it or create a solution or find a problem. some way of getting rid of that feeling. We don't want to feel that. Yeah, that brings up some interesting ideas. It seems that at least where I live or the way I was brought up, maybe it's the school system, but everything is based on like solutions to problems. We don't really take time to think about why problems happen or it's always the solution.

And I'll give you an example, like in medicine. Everyone focuses on like degenerative, I can't say it right. Everyone focuses on Alzheimer's and all these diseases that breaking down the body. And it seems like it would be a better strategy to focus on optimal health rather than people that are always sick. Because if you're just focusing on people that are always sick, are you really going to find solutions or are you just finding ways to make sick people a little bit better? And that kind of ideology seems to permeate everything we do. We look for this solution to this over here instead of being like, let's find out how it works optimally. It seems to permeate that.

Does that sound like a coherent thing to say? Yeah, it makes me think of, I don't know if you know that, the positive health. I'm not familiar with that. Magdlet Huber, I think her name is. And he created this whole view on health care. And it is that health isn't the absence of sickness. It's way more than that. It's your mental health.

It's how connected you are to the people around you. It's more than that. So I think that if you only focus on the sickness and that you need a solution for that, you're skipping a lot of important parts. And I think that relates to you what you just said. And if you're just focusing on the solution, yeah, the solution of what? Yeah, right? the solution of being sick, yeah, but okay, but some people are sick, but still very happy, right?

So it might sound harsh, but what's the problem then? Yeah. I'm not saying you shouldn't care and sick or shouldn't take care of sick people. I mean, be clear about that, of course, if you can treat it, treat it. But also take a look at the other elements there. That's an interesting theory. Has that, has that theory been around for a while, Or is this something that's kind of new? Yeah, now it's been around for, I don't know how long exactly.

But it's at least in the Netherlands and in Germany, it's around for a while. And I actually have no idea if it's, if it reached America or all the confidence. It reminds me of a different. I spoke with a gentleman Thomas Verney who wrote a book called The Embodied Mind. And he talked how, you know, we have this mind body problem where we think the mind is right here. But in his book, he goes on to explain how like the mind is in everything. And I guess it kind of gets back to the idea of you come out of this world. Like, you know, I don't know if it's so, I don't know if it's similar to panpsychism where everything has a consciousness.

But I think it's helpful for people to think of the embodied mind as, you know, your everything has a sort of intelligence about. it and if you begin thinking about that for a while if you just take time to think about everything has an intelligence about it i think you can shift your consciousness it can shift the way you see yourself and shift you see the way you see the world have you read anything about the embodied mind are you familiar with anything like that haven but and what i'm wondering and by the word and back to words again what did he mean by the word by the word mind was he talking about thoughts or did not gut feeling also get involved or what? I think that from my analysis of it is that mind is almost synonymous with like intelligence

and everything about it has an intelligence. Like, you know, you think with your, the same way you think with your brain, you also think with your knee. Like, oh, yeah, like when my knee is killing me, like, you know, you can consult like, oh, it's probably the meniscus in my knee right there because it cracks when I do that. Is that thought happening in my brain or is it happening in my knee? You know, why does it matter where it's happening? But if you just take time to start thinking about that, like, oh, yeah, that tree over there is,

it has all the sap leaking. Is that my, is that happening in my brain or is that happening in the tree? But it's interesting. It's a fancy way of getting to see you as part of, see yourself. and everything maybe. You know, like if the same way that when I'm talking to you and you maybe pull back your hair and smile a little bit, like that's the same thing I do. So I recognize that trade in you.

Can you also recognize yourself in the tree over there? Can you recognize yourself when like when a leaf, when a plant gets cold, it kind of like the flowers begin to unbloom a little bit and they close up because they're cold? The same thing you do when you pull the covers up over you. You know, it's this weird way of recognizing yourself. and other things. And so the mind, I guess by mind, he means the intelligence in all things.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the interesting thing is that the thoughts, for instance, you have about things are a way to relate to the things, but they also create distance. So, yeah. Because it's like with meditation, the moment you are meditating and you think, ah, I'm doing so good in this meditation, you're out of it. Yeah.

When you're in a flow at work. and you think, oh, I have a great flow, you're out of the flow because of that thought. It's true. It's like the old meditation of, I want you to try to think, try to desire nothing. But in the moment you begin trying to desire nothing, you realize that you're desiring to desire nothing. It's funny to think about, but it's, I guess we're fortunate to have, enough time to be able to think about those things. You know, I can't imagine living.

I don't know. When I was younger, I lived in Mexico for like, maybe four and a half months. And I lived way down south and like a really small village at a surf camp. And I got to see the way, you know, it was, it was definitely at the poverty line. And, you know, you would go and you would get water from the trough where the animals were drinking and that's the water you would shower with. And it was, it was an interesting way to get to see a lifestyle that I was unfamiliar with.

And sometimes I wonder, like, how much of the culture we live in shapes the way we're capable of thinking. Do you have any thoughts on that? The way of thinking. Well, yeah, it creates this whole, I think the way you brought up and the culture creates this whole set of, of value. you have. So yeah, you'll influence it a lot. But what I was thinking of, I think that there's also a lot of people have a lot of opinions about what's right and what's wrong and what's better and what's,

what's worse. Because I recently made this trip to Morocco and we were in the middle of nature there and people didn't have any, yeah, any equipment or any, they just did their, they're washing in the river. And I think a lot of people would say, oh, that's so sad for them. Or we have such a privileged life. And that made me think, yeah, what's the privilege there? What do you know that? Because those people, the moment I started talking to them, they were very happy.

And they were all really connected to nature. And they were, yeah, I think they're really connected to that core. So, yeah, what's better? I don't know. I think that's also just an. opinion. Yeah. But at the same time, we, at least I'm, I'm to speak for myself, I do think I'm in a very privileged position that I don't have to worry about food or about housing or it gives me the space to think about these things. I think the moment you're in a situation of life and then,

you're not going to think about meditation or about you just need to survive. So yeah, it is, it is privileged. And I think it will also influence the way you look at things and the language you use and I think it's all related. Do you think that being in a place of privilege requires you to be responsible for other people that aren't privileged? Well, yeah, in a way, yeah, of course. But at the same time, it makes me think of what I said earlier. The moment I think too much about that, it's paralyzing.

Yeah. It's impossible to help everyone. Yeah, that's true. I'm trying to do the best I can in my own little bubble here. And I try to reach out and see how big that bubble exactly is. But yeah, yeah. But I do think it's good to be connected and to take care of other people. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Yeah, I find it the same way too. I always have a problem with like the greater good argument. Like this is for the greater good. but I'm like, who decides who knows what the greater good is. It always seems to come from like an authority figure who knows the greater good. Like, this is the greater good. And I'm like, wait a minute.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's see who really knows it there. But that's kind of quite a conundrum there. Yeah. Is it really doing something for the greater good if you lose yourself in the process? Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's about balance there.

I think as you take good care of yourself, you can take good care of other people. But if you skip one of the two, yeah, that's that's not imbalance either. What do you have to say about the balance between your thoughts and your feelings? Yeah, I think the same goes for that. I think we spend a lot of times in a lot of the time in our heads thinking about stuff. And by doing that, we miss a lot of what's happening right now. But at the same time, you shouldn't get rid of your head. You need it a lot.

But it's so it's about balance that too. And I think it's about recognizing that and recognizing the patterns. So the moment you have a feeling, pay some attention to that and prevent from immediately popping in your head and going along with all the stories and all the doomsday scenarios that happen in your head. And it's about focus too. You can practice that. And I really think it starts by awareness of what is happening. Where is your focus? Is it in your body or are you constantly thinking and overthinking things?

And if you can think of a solution, are you going to think a bit more to create a solution? Or we all try to think of solutions for problems we created in our mind in the first place. And yeah, to me, the body is a very, like I said earlier, it's a very important part in that. It can keep you grounded instead of getting really stuck in your. your head. Yeah. Yeah, that's where exercise can come in really well is sometimes it allows you to just stop with all the thoughts. And, you know, there's an interesting quote by Gandhi that I wrote down that says your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, your habits become your values and your values become

your destiny. I'm curious, do you think that like, there's a lot of wisdom in there, but I'm wondering, Do you think that maybe feelings are something that are brought about by words? Are they connected in that way? Or is there a certain way that thoughts are connected to feelings? Or do you have any thoughts on that? I think it can work both ways. Sometimes you initially have a gut feeling or a feeling in your body and you start to think about that. But sometimes you can also hear a word or think something and that will trigger a response

your body. So it moves both ways. Yeah. It hints the balance then, trying to find. And I think different people probably have different patterns of maybe how they were brought up like we spoke about earlier and just becoming aware of how those things interact. I don't really know a whole lot of people that take time to think about that. That's a pretty deep thought to be aware of the way in which your feelings interact with your thoughts, but it's probably pretty powerful. Yeah, and it's, I think, unconsciously, it's constantly influencing us, but we don't realize it. And, but there's a lot of information there. And it's the same as when you meet people or when you're triggered, pay some attention to what you feel.

Start there and just become aware of the pattern that's happening then. Yeah. It's a fascinating, it's fascinating to think about how those things all work, especially when you apply them to your life. And then I don't know, that seems like a good strategy to me. And maybe that's the only strategy. Maybe the only strategy is to figure out how these ideas, your thoughts, and your words apply to you. And then only then can you begin to think about how they may to apply to other people. Or what some advice you would give to people in a relationship that have different ideas about thoughts or different ideas about words?

Is that like a, is that a flashpoint for people? Well, I think like I said, it starts by becoming aware of what you think and what you feel. And then you can try to relate to the other person, but there will always be a difference. And I think that curiosity is a very important one. Then the moment you disagree and you get stuck in the argument of he never does that or she never does that, the other person will feel offended and pull up a wall. and the connection is gone. But the moment you're able to ask each other questions out of curiosity, like, hey, how does this work for you?

Or how does it feel for you? Or when I say this or that, what is it triggering you? That's interesting. Then you're having a conversation instead of a dialogue or an interview. Yeah. And I think the moment people get stuck in relationships or they also get stuck in their own patterns and their own defense mechanisms. And sometimes you need to break down the wall a bit.

to create curiosity because if people are really angry, they won't be curious. Then it will take some other work first. But I think in the end, that curiosity and asking each other questions and wanting to explore together, that's a very important. Yeah. Do you see, I mean, maybe it switches off from time to time, but do you see, do you think one is more prevalent? Couples that are actually upset with each other or?

individuals that are self-sabotaging to get out of the relationship? Are those two things connected? I think they're connected. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's not that separated because we all have our, well, we all have our own individual history and defense mechanisms. And that all gets in action in a relationship. The relationship, I think, is a place where those buttons get pushed the hardest.

So, yeah. And I think creating some oversight in that of, okay, what is my trigger, what is my defense mechanism, how does it work for you? And it all intertwines. And it can get mixed up very fast. It's so true. Yeah. And I think to me that's also very interesting in non-monogamous relationships,

because the one partner will trigger this part in you and the other partner will trigger a completely different side of you. And to me as a curious person, that is very interesting. But I can also imagine that for a lot of people, way too much. That is. That's a lot of thinking going on there. Yeah.

But probably pretty rewarding too. I guess sometimes the more complex a problem when it's working well, there's a higher sense of like a reward there. I don't know. Do you think that someone who is in a non-monogamous working relationship is in a higher state of awareness than someone that's in a traditional happy marriage it's it's the same as what i said earlier that completely depends on the individual on how you deal with it so i think you can be very aware of everything around you in a monogamous relationship that's i don't think that's that's connected but i do think that to be in a non-monogamous relationship and to make it successful

it requires a lot of insight in your own patterns and in what you feel. So, yeah, that's definitely true. And communication is also a big one. Because if you're not able to communicate, you won't be able to have a number of a relationship, I think, a successful one. Because you need to set boundaries and you need to discuss, okay, I can't deal with this, but I do have space for this and how do we communicate that? Yeah. people somehow have the image that when you're in a non-monogamous relationship,

there are no rules or that it's freedom for everyone. Yeah, that's not how it works. I think there are, there's a very important set of rules because everyone needs to feel safe. In the moment someone isn't, you need to discuss the rules again. It seems like there's more rules because there's more people. Yeah, and it's not even rules as in you can do this or you can't do that, but it's, it's more about communication.

It's more nuanced. also about what information do I want to know what don't know what I want to know yeah yeah that's a great point yeah and that depends per person because the one person wants to know all intimate details for instance and the other person can't deal with that at all so you have to discuss that hmm have you are you familiar with people that have bipolar have you ever read anything about that Yeah, I bid. I had some of courses about it in my education. Yeah. What?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the monogamous relationships, I feel like. My father has bipolar disorder and I'm just curious as to ask a professional like what, I've read quite a bit just like DSM-5 and some different books about it. but I'm wondering, according to what you have read, do you think that it's, I guess this kind of may pertain to a lot of mental illness?

And I know there's a spectrum of it. But do you ever see people that blame, is it common for people with bipolar or mental disorders to blame where they are in their life on the mental disease that they have? Yeah. think that that might happen yeah but i think it's it's yeah this also differs per person i think yeah absolutely because a thing like a diagnosis sometimes it can be really helpful because people have been struggling all the whole life and they have no idea where it comes from or so so the moment they get a

diagnosis they can feel like ah this is it now i finally have something to hold on to you at the other at the other side it can also be limiting because once you're in that box good luck and getting out of it. And people will label you and think of you in, yeah, in that box. And they'll put everything you do on that. And the same goes for you personally, I think. So it depends. I think that also depends on your history and how you brought up and what you need.

And, yeah. Yeah, it's an inner. It's in that. because when yeah I'm beginning you're you're asking the question so it makes me think where where's the question coming from

you told me about your dad but yeah I I for a long time when I when I was talking to my dad like I sometimes I think that

you know it's easy to blame a disease for all your failures but if that's true if you're sick and the reason you fail is because of this disease then don't you also have to accept that all the positive things in your life or an effect of that disease?

It can't just be that, hey, I failed here because I was sick. Well, if that's true, then you succeeded here because you were sick. And then all of a sudden, it begins to sound a lot like an excuse to me. And so, you know, I want to be fair and I want to be mindful of people that have disabilities or have mental illness. But I think that there's choice involved. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you don't make choices. You know, it may be more difficult to make those choices. But I think part of dealing with a mental illness is realizing and taking responsibility

for the choices you have. And sometimes, well, at least in my life, I've gotten really angry. Like, and I've spoken with my dad, like, listen, I get it. I know you're sick. But you're not taking responsibility for your choices. You're a grown man. You've got to take some responsibility here. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, yeah, like you say, in this case, you're personally. involved in his story. So you're not a neutral observer. Right. So it's, yeah, which I completely get. You mix up in all of it. Yeah.

It triggers a lot. Yeah. I think, I think, too, it's interesting. Sometimes I think the people, maybe this is the point of trauma, or it seems to me that people that are maybe come up with trauma or maybe they lose a brother or lose a son or they face a trauma that is. enough to rattle the foundation on which they were born. They don't understand.

Something happens at that point in time, and like it changes you. Part of you dies, and this new part grows back, and it's almost, I hesitate to say it, but it's almost beautiful in a way when you go through such a severe trauma because you are shown something about yourself, if you're willing to do the work,

what you're really capable of. It could be really, really life-affirming in a lot of ways. Yeah, I agree. I mean, my brother dying, it was the saddest thing that I've ever happened to me. It was horrible, but it also brought me a lot. And it sounds, yeah, it may sound weird, but that's how it works. But I think that is how life works, too. I mean, if I look at my own personal life, I learned a lot at the most at the moments that were the most horrible.

So, yeah, because then you're challenged to take a good look at yourself and to, because you get stuck and you want to get out of that. So what do I need to do to make this better or to grow or to develop? Yeah, you have to go through all the excuses. You have to go through all the reasons and the why me? Why is it happened to me? You have to go through all the pain and the pity. And then finally, after you make it through the dark night of the soul,

then you begin building something back that is almost like a light for you. someone else to follow. Sometimes I think that's the purpose of trauma. Maybe that's one of the ideals of life is that there is something bigger than you that forced you to go through that trauma so that you can come to the other side and then help other people through it. It seems that it seems to me the people that go through traumas gain an insight that allows them to see other people that are embarking on that trauma. Have you noticed that? Yeah, it will definitely help on your empathy too because you'll also realize that yeah I'm not the only one who suffer there are a lot of people who have trauma and on whatever scale it is because people like to put

trauma or grief in in in a hierarchy I think that's that's nonsense there is no hierarchy there if it's it's about what what it means to you personally yeah I have to think about this quote I read this week about a woman who said yeah she she got cancer I think and she said yeah, I stopped thinking things like, why me? Because the moment you're healthy, you don't even, you don't ask that question either. You don't question, why am I the healthy one? No, you just do that when something happens. Yeah, that's pain and fear and scarcity, all intermingled with one and just knocking on the door right there.

Yeah, and I think people are constantly working very hard to avoid pain. And in the meantime, that's impossible. So to me, it really helped me very much to accept the fact that there is pain every now and then. And to experience suffering without immediately wanting to get rid of it or so. To me, that was a very big step because there will be pain and there will be suffering. But you can decide how you deal with it. Yeah. What, sometimes I think that suffering is the ultimate state.

for us because it's it's where all the real growth is even though it has such a negative connotation like when you think about suffering you think about starvation or for me mental images come up that are you know people that are unable to help themselves but that's not necessarily an accurate image of what suffering is what when you think of suffering what do you think of I think that suffering shows us what we don't want. And that can be a motivation for what we do want and how we can create that. So in that way, it can be a huge motivated because it shows us when we are, yeah, when we lose ourselves or when we have pain or when we, it makes us realize what we do on.

Yeah. But at the same time, I also think that we can make our suffering bigger by thinking about it. Because the moment you're like, oh, I'm such a victim and why me? And we make it bigger. It's not helping you. And you're creating this extra layer for yourself. Well, if you can stay close to the initial suffering itself, the feeling, the question of what is really happening right now, that's way more interesting to me.

Because that's also the part where you do have some kind of control of where you can take action. Because the more you get stuck in your head, the more you get away from the here and now, I think. so we all long for control and lack of suffering but in the meantime we are gone it's an odd thought to think that instead of running away from suffering you should be running towards it yeah yeah it's very counterintuitive people don't like to do that but the other side is once you have a taste for it yeah it's kind of yeah yeah It can be very tiring, by the way, but it's also very interesting. Yeah.

Yeah, that's where the life is in a weird sort of way. Life is a struggle. Life is suffering. Some of the best advice I ever got in some dark times was that you can't control what happens to you, but you and you alone can control the meaning of that event. I remember hearing that and thinking of myself like, wow, you can't. And that takes away the being inside your head because it takes away all those giant wise and all those questions.

You're like, okay, what does this mean to me? And as soon as you can begin ascribing meaning to an event, then you can begin to kind of control what it, you know, then you have the control back. And you can, that meaning can be whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah, it relates a bit to the idea of the logo therapy. I don't know if you know it by Victor Frankel. He was this survivor of outreach and I think he was a psychologist.

And he wrote a book before he went in and then it got destroyed. And while being there, he realized, okay, I can endure all this suffering, but no one can take myself away or how I deal with things or how I feel about it. And I think that's the core of a lot. Then, yeah, no matter what happens, you can't control that, but you can't control how you deal with it. Yeah. Man Search for Meaning, I think was that book.

Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah. That was a fascinating book. I remember crying quite a bit in that book. But yeah, that comes down to, you know, why do some people? I think that that was part of the book, too. It was like, why do some people make it through this? And why are other people not?

And it's that idea of you get to control the meaning of that event. And in some ways, that's the ultimate freedom, right? The idea, no matter where you are, what color you are, what orientation you have, what gender you are. That's kind of the one thing that could bind us all together is the idea that we all can ascribe meaning to whatever event we want. Yeah, and I think it also has got to do with the decision if you want to live or not. If you can fully decide if I want to live, it also makes it easier to deal with fear or

with suffering because it gives you a different motivation. Yeah. That is interesting. to think about. Do you think of one of the life-changing questions people don't ask themselves is whether or not they want to have kids? You mean that they don't ask that question, but they have kids anyway? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

That's exactly what I mean. Well, I think what happens a lot of that people realize that there was a question the moment they get kids. They do in the wrong order they first have kids and then start to ask themselves. why did I do this? Yeah. And I think in a way that's good, because if you know the impact of having kids before you have them, I think about people won't have kids. Yeah.

But it's, yeah, it has a huge impact. Yeah. It's, it's. And then now we're back to suffering, just like that. For you, that's suffering. Well, it's, it's. It is in a way because I think that it forces you to relive your childhood, but it also forces you, it also gives you the opportunity to change the meaning of your childhood.

And it gives you the opportunity to see your life on a bigger timeline, which I think is a huge thing, being able to see your life, not just as your life, but as your dad's life and as your kid's life and potentially the future life. When you could pan back on that, I think it takes a lot of weight off your shoulders to realize like, okay, it's not just a race from the hospital to the graveyard. It's not just something that I have to accomplish. It's something that's being accomplished for like the last six generations. If you're lucky enough to look back on it, you can see some real progress.

Yeah, it definitely puts things in perspective in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's interesting. Another question that I had written down for life-changing questions that it seems, sort of interesting to me is do I volunteer to stand up for others? I think that for me anyways, I think that's a big part of volunteering because volunteering can be a lot of other things, but I just threw in the other part of standing up for others, whether that's going down and volunteering at a homeless shelter or maybe standing up for a group of people that won't stand up for themselves by setting an example for them. What is your take on

volunteering and standing up for other people. Yeah, well, I think it can be very meaningful. But I think the same goes for days. It depends on what it brings you too. I mean, some people say, yeah, no, I just do it for the other person. I think that's nonsense to be honest. You also get something out of it yourself. And that's fine.

I mean, you want to be meaningful or belong or contribute something to other people's lives. And I think that's what's important about. about volunteering for instance as well. But yeah, I don't know if it's, I think you can get the same things out of something that you do get paid for, for instance. So I don't know if it has got to do with volunteering itself. I think it has got to do with the job you're doing,

whether you get paid for it or not. Yeah. How do you think about that? Should everyone be a volunteer? I think that if you're capable of it, then you should try to do it. And, you know, like you said, you could get paid for it. And it can be maybe leading, doing something by example.

Like, you know, maybe standing up for yourself in front of other people could inspire them to stand up or setting an example for someone that you, sometimes like, I'll give you an example of, of, of, of, of, something that happened to me that kind of made me change the way I see myself and then led me to a course of actions. And that was, there was a guy at my work and he was a really, really nice guy. And he was always nice to me and I was always super mean to him. And like, one time my friend is like, George, why are you so mean to that guy? And I thought to myself, I'm like, oh, no, I'm just joking. And they're like, no, you're not joking. The stuff you said is

really mean. And so I had to think about it for a while. And then, of course, you know, a few days go by and you spend some time alone and quiet. And the answer comes to you. And I'm like, I don't like that guy because he's really weak. Then I thought to myself, I'm really weak. And that reminds me that I'm really weak. And so as soon as that hit me. Yeah. And so I had to go and apologize. Like, hey, I just wanted to apologize. You know, I've been saying some really mean things to you and it's it's not you that I was being mean to. It's that there's some things about myself I don't like and I was lashing out at you. I think I was really nice.

And he's like, I know, you're kind of a knucklehead or whatever, but I forgive you. And it was really, it was, it was, I was thankful that he did that.

And then that particular instance led me to the idea of, well, why do I think I'm weak? You know, what's, what is it about me that makes me think I'm weak? And then I came to the conclusion like, I,

I am not standing up, for myself in these different areas. So I figured the course of action for that is that I should stand up in front of myself in this forum. And then maybe that will not only help me, but instead of lashing out other people that I think are weak, maybe that would inspire them to do something like I'm doing. And I'll be an example for that. And so that's what I mean when I say volunteering and moving it forward.

And I think if you can volunteer it, then you're doing the opposite of lashing. out, you're more like attracting people in. And it's a different kind of energy there. And it's, it's rewarding. Maybe it's, it helps. Maybe it's, it helps. Maybe it's an ego driven on some level, but it's rewarding on some level because you're like, yeah, now I'm helping the community instead of taking away from it. Yeah, but it's great that you turn it into something positive. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. But yeah, what you say about the ego, yeah, of course, there's always ego involved. Don't get, don't try to get rid of your ego. That's what keeps you. going in the world, right?

But as long as you also create some distance and can look at it from a distance and you'll be fine. Yeah. Stuck in your ego, then you have a problem, I think. Yeah, I think we've all probably been there. I know I have definitely been in that state of mind at times. Do you think that the way we think, like, you know, we can go back to Freud or even probably prior to that,

but it seems like the structure of the brain has been very similar for time for a long time. Do you think that the way we're thinking is evolving the same way we are as evolving as humans? I don't know if it's by the way we are thinking, but I do think that the set of rule changes because the culture changes, your environment changes. So that influences it.

And yeah, so that might also be influencing the way you think. Yeah, because you're not separate. from your environment so it will have an influence yeah it's interesting to me to think about and I am having an absolute blast talking to you I really thank you for spending some time with me I'm coming up on on two hours and I've got other questions here but I feel like I'm not doing I could be doing them better but I'm getting a little bit tired right here yeah I want I want I want maybe you can come back in the future. We can talk a little bit more.

We could have a panel of people and we could have a discussion with more of us in there that would make the conversation even more entertaining. But before I go, is there anything else that you want to cover before we go? I think we covered a lot. We did. I didn't realize it was already two hours. I know. I just looked out too and I'm like, oh, man, okay.

Before I let you go, where can people find you at? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Why can they find me? Well, they can check my website, so that's true. And I also do online counseling, and so people can also reach me from abroad. So that's also an option. I'm starting as a teacher this year

and this place where I did my own education, so that's also interesting. Yeah, and I have all these half sort of plans in my head, but they're not finished yet. so I'm not going to tell you about that. Some of the things that I can make true, so I won't do that. I love it. Let's keep an other appointment.

I like the idea of that panel that would be a reason. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It's really fun. I really enjoy our conversation. You're an incredibly interesting person. I love the way you think about things, and it provides me with a different perspective. So thank you for spending some time with me today.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really liked it. Yeah, me too. So I'm going to close it down, but hang on for one second before you leave for our studio, because I want to talk to you for one more minute. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for spending time with us today. All of Anne's links will be in the show notes below. And if you're interested in our conversation or she said something that you thought you want to follow up on,

reach out to her. And I'm sure that she would love to talk to you for a minute. So thank you to everybody. Aloha.