TrueLife - Ben Greenzweig - Executive Producer, Psychedelic Science 2023, CEO Momentum Events

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/bgreenzweigwww.momentumevents.comwww.psychedelicscience.orgEvents veteran, entrepreneur, founder & CEO of Momentum Events. I have a deep passion for destigmatizing mental health & psychedelic therapy. I believe everyone deserves to be free from fear and find their mental balance. Blessed to be the organizing partner for MAPS Psychedelic Science.Momentum proudly develops events that attract the best and brightest minds who come together to share their knowledge and connect with the individuals that matter most. Our events are engaging, content-driven and exist to ensure your career always stays in motion, gaining the energy it needs to tackle any challenge and capitalize on every advantage. Behind every event is a proven research-based methodology that translates into quality events that facilitate information exchange between industry stakeholders. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. All the stuff we got to do. That's right. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Thursday. It's such a beautiful day outside. I am here with an incredible guest.

I'm here with some incredible stories. And of course, Ben, we have an incredible audience. I'm sure you already know that. Ladies and gentlemen, the one and only, Ben Greenswood, executive producer, psychedelic science, 2023, co-founder, CEO of Momentum Events. I could go into a lot more things that you have accomplished and why I have a profound respect for you, Ben.

But I thought we'd just start this conversation. Maybe give you a moment to introduce anything that you want to right here, but I'm excited to get started, man. Well, George, first of all, thank you so much, having me on. Your energy is infectious. You are just an unbelievable spirit. And, you know, I've listened to your prior podcast. We have a couple of mutual connections who've been on your podcast before. So you're authentic and you're just a great ambassador for the cause. I will be very brief on my background because I'm sure we'll get to some portions of it as we go on here.

But, you know, I'm Ben and I've been in the B2B media space for 24 years, launched momentum 10 years ago. but I know we're here to talk about mental health and psychedelics, and I'm someone who's always been very public about my own battles, my own struggles, and how that pathway led me to finally finding healing through psychedelics. And then I took that moment and said, I got to do what I can to advance this cause. And so I dropped almost everything I was doing in the other side of my business.

I let my business partner work on that side. And I just built our psychedelic event portfolio. And then long and the short of it is, we got on the radar of maps and Denver was last month. So there's a lot of gap there to fill, but that's kind of the brief version of who I am. It's beautiful.

And I love the way the words you choose to describe it. And prior to us beginning on our show today, we found ourselves talking about the one thing that seems to be the Ariadne thread that ties us all together. And that is this idea that we all have struggles. And you use the word suffering. I was wondering maybe we could touch back on that a little bit.

How dare you, Ben, how dare you say suffering is something we should embrace? Well, to be fair, I actually think it's the Bible. And I have to go to my New Testament. You know, I am a believer. I am a Christ follower. But, you know, suffering is something that is across all religions. And if you're someone who is agnostic or atheistic or you have other beliefs and you believe in things like karma is another great example, You know, bad things happen to you because you've done bad. So suffering has caused suffering.

If you just believe in the randomness of the universe, you can suffer bad luck. If you have faith, you can find suffering. Now, probably the bigger question not for this podcast is why do we suffer? But we all suffer. It doesn't make a difference who you are, where you come from, what your politics, what your beliefs are. We all suffer. And when you begin to understand that there is. the sort of the lived suffering, the lived trauma that all of us have.

But then you add to that inherited trauma and what comes from your parents and your ancestors and far and far back, you know, there is no one free of any of that because all of us, all of our peoples have certainly suffered. It's so well said. And I think about it sometimes suffering is growth. Suffering may be the one thing that allows you to thoroughly, investigate your authenticity. And isn't it interesting that at some point in time, this thing that you're suffering about, if I stay there for a minute, was there a point in time in your

transition when you came to the conclusion that it just wasn't your suffering, but it was generational suffering? Did you come to that conclusion and how did that affect you? So it's a great question. I would say that for me, I'll be honest. I'm 45 years old, not a great big secret to the audience here. You know, grew up in the Just Say No Dare generation and drugs are bad and MDMA are going to put holes in your head and this is your brain on drugs and don't do them. And I will admit throughout my college, I did none of it. Zero. You know, apart from alcohol, which we all know is potentially a much more destructive.

form, which is a whole other conversation on policy and society. I didn't do any of that stuff. So, you know, that generation was always, you know, was always pull yourself up by your bootstraps. We don't talk about emotions. We don't go on Western medicine. We don't talk about our feelings. And so I grew up with all these major issues, which only later did I realize were clinically diagnosed signs of PTSD, major depressive disorder and general anxiety disorder. But I just thought, it's normal. Suck it up. Move on. That's life. everyone's got to feel like crap all the time you know and then so so it wasn't in my mentality to blame you know to blame generations before me because this is just what life is and so it only took

later to kind of connect that all all together here but you know you don't know what you don't know your normal is normal maybe every day for you know is phenomenal but that might be someone else's awfulness or vice versa. So you only come to understand your environment by how you digest each day. And that's what I was doing for such a large portion of my life. It's, it's, I love life. And I, it's hard to say you love the suffering or you love the struggle. But I think you can learn to really respect it.

And when I, when I hear what you're saying about, you know, going to that same generation, I went to the same part of it. And for me, the healing part is like, oh my God, I see this pattern in my life that's destructive. And it's really easy to blame yourself. And it's really easy to get down. And that's the spot where you start ruining relationships. You start not liking yourself a little bit. And for me, it was an epiphany.

It was like the light ball went on when I saw the pattern in my family. And I'm like, wait a minute. It's not just me. It's something my whole family does. And that was a beginning point. But then another epiphany came on. I'm like, wait a minute. If I can move, if I can stand tall and face this,

I don't need to, I don't need to punch it or kill it. I was going to look it in the eye. And if I can do that, then my kid might not have to. And that's what gave me this great beautiful word that you have named a company called Momentum. It's such a beautiful thing, right? Because you just need a little bit. And it starts flowing and you start moving downhill.

But that's why I asked that question, because I can hear in your voice that similar struggle that you've taken on or you stood in front of fear. Maybe that's another point we can get to now is this, I had this idea that just standing in front of fear is enough to scare fear a little bit. What do you think about that? What do you think about standing in front of your fears? Well, first of all, we can talk forever about epiphanies and mental health.

Let's do it. You know, for your listeners, we did not rehearse this, but I'm going to tie this really nicely together. Fear plays such an important role in my journey. So I'm going to stand up here. On my left arm, this is my tattoo. And it says fear is life. Whoa. Joshua 1-9. So, there you go, man.

I used to let the fear control me before I had my psychedelic assisted therapies and was able to get myself on a pathway to healing. And I want to be very careful and say, you know, we all know it's not for everybody. And also, to be clear, you're never healed. No one's ever healed. It's healing. It is the journey without the destination. Your ship will never, ever make port as fully healed because that's not how we're not. we are built as human beings.

But after my, my, my, my, my sort of my therapies and the whole reset of my brain and, and what I had gone through and what I had expunged and what I had rebuilt and began to integrate my, my new life with my old life.

I was sitting at a roller coaster with one of my youngest kids and she was scared. And I had this thought. I'm like, you know, you have to understand. You have to feel fear because fear is how you are reminded that you're alive. Because if you didn't feel fear, and listen,

We've all been on SSRIs, we've all been on medicines, and we've all drank too much, smoke too much. Anyone who's had pain has tried to numb that pain. I'd like to tell you I've done the healthy one, which is go on an ultramarathon and get my runners high. No. So we all do things to numb the pain. Some of it is healthy. Some of it isn't. You could meditate.

You can pray. You can exercise. You could drink. You could smoke. But we all try to numb that pain. And so you have to like almost rethink about your relationship with fear. And for me, it's fear is how you know you're alive. And again, for me and my faith, Joshua 1-9, do not be afraid for God is with you wherever you go.

It's except that there's fear, but don't let it control you because, you know, in my world, he's got your back. And if you're a believer, great. And if you're not a believer, guess what? Nature's got your back. Energy's got your back. Karma's got you back. Maybe it's luck in satire. that have your back. So to your great point, man, it's the relationship that you have with

fear, I think is very telling on where you are in your mental health. Yeah. You know, I sometimes I think about it's all necessary. When we see a lot of the times in the world of psychedelics, we hear about this epidemic of PTSD or epidemic of mental health. And this may be an unpopular idea, but maybe it's necessary. Maybe it's, we have to go through that spot. And in order for us to find ways out. And the people that are emerging out of it right now are like, they are like Ezekiel 2517. They are, though I walk to the valley of the shadow of death,

I shall fear no evil. They rod and they stop. They comfort me, right? Am I my brother's keeper? Like maybe that's what we're doing here. Maybe these people stepping up right now. Hey, they sat in front of the burning bush. Maybe they burned a little bush.

You know what I mean? And now they got the rod and staff with them. And they're like, I'm going to go back and help these people. You think about like the heroic hearts project or some of these other incredible people that are, I mean, these are people that are literally that live by the slogan, leave no one behind. And now, you know, we're using these substances to go back and get everybody. Man, it's such a beautiful thing. I love the way in which we can frame it around biblical references or or the Bada Vod Gita or all of these references, man. I love what you doing.

Well, thank you. I'd like to say it's pre-planned. It just happens to be a whole feel. You know, and to your, you know, to so many of your points. and by heroic hearts and vets and reason for hope. I mean, they're just amazing organizations out there. But, you know, in 2018, I sort of publicly, quote unquote, came out on LinkedIn. And my post was, you know, I'm a father or a husband, entrepreneur, and CEO who battles depression.

And this was my goal in 2018 to start destigmatizing it. And not because, I mean, this is before I had psychedelic therapy. I was still an absolute mess. But I felt like maybe just talking about it would help me and help others and we'd get together. And then in 2019, I felt mental health was starting to turn a corner. There were real conversations happening. There were, it was starting to take priority. There was even some conversation that physical health is mental health and mental health

is physical health. And then the pandemic hit. And everything took a back seat, right? Mental health got completely pushed that. Everything got back, you know, took a back seat. And I try to find, and it's hard, but I try to find going back to purpose of suffering is try to find what good, what creative destruction has come from it. And I think, you know, our brothers and sisters that have been so harmed by by the pandemic, both directly and indirectly,

and that harm is coming on top of all the other harm that existed before March of 2020. I think that there's no, you know, anyone with half a common sense molecule in their brain knew There was a coming mental health storm as a result of what had happened then. And I think there's no coincidence that from that battle, you're getting this momentum, thank you. But you're getting momentum into not just psychedelics, which I know is a huge part, but you're getting so much more tolerance, understanding of, you know, EMDR and TMS and light therapy and vibrations. Cold plunge tanks, it's a mental health treatment. That's a modality.

The portable saunas. That's a modality. Go to any national park in this country right now. You can't get in. There lines out the door because people know there's something calling them towards and towards nature and towards rebuilding. So I want to try to get rid of the big bunch of horribleness that we've all experienced over the past three or seven years and try to focus on the goodness that I think will come from this with our mental health, our spirituality, our purpose, and our passion. That's really well said. It's beautiful.

And I love this idea of language in the way in which we can describe our circumstances or see our relationships or feel our way around situations that could be sharp. And that brings me in a prior article when you came out on LinkedIn and you talked about the depression and you talked about you had gone from depression, anxiety, and PTSD to challenge sadness and anger. And I think that there's like a fractal nature of the same way we. we create new neural pathways is the same way we start using new language, is the same way our life begins to unfold in a new way. Like those things are all connected, right?

You know, one of the, I'm constantly learning. And what I think, you know, for the most part, 99% of what I think is true today might very well not be true down the road. And I think I'm humble enough to admit that because I have been wrong about a lot of my life. One of the things that I've more recently over the past year, year and a half have really grown to appreciate. And you'll get this and I think others will, but for those that are maybe on the outside looking in, they might not, which is psychedelics, the actual medicines, that's not where the real change happens, right? That's the engine, right? That's the gasoline, right? You could have a five-gallon tank of gasoline and you could have your truck, right? Your truck's not going to get to its destination

without the gasoline and the gasoline is not going to get you there without the truck, right? And so the psychedelics and the empathogens, you know, the class of medicines commonly known as psychedelics, you know, they give you the speed, they give you the opportunity to reach your destination. But once you go through the therapy and the treatment or the treatments, right, it's what do you do afterwards? What happens next to change all that, take that gushy neuroplasticism, and what are you going to shape it into going forward, right? So to your point, part of that is trying to, you know, re-calibrate how you think of things, whether it's, you know, suffering and challenges versus anger intolerance versus meditation or prayer.

So it's what happens after the medicine where the real change begins. And that's another important part that I think you and I, you know, have experience and we share. Yeah. I can't quote the numbers on this one, but there's a beautiful quote that says something along the lines of. I was born with a thorn in my side, a messenger from Satan to torment me. I prayed to the Lord three times to take it away,

and in his infinite wisdom I heard, my grace is sufficient for you, for in weakness, my power is made perfect. That's what that describes to me. You know what I mean? You need the grace of God, and I think that sometimes the psychedotes can be the brinked, bridge to God, whatever your definition of God is.

And you can bathe in that grace. You can feel the warmth and you can bring it back and you can revisit that place. Maybe not at the same sense of heightened awareness, but you understand it now. And now you have the ability to see the world in a way you never have before. And the path is open and the sun's out. And that bird that was blowing your mind when you were trying to sleep is now this beautiful love song trying to wake you up. And so I don't know, man.

I love talking to you. I can keep going down this road, man. But what do you think? I want to grab that hook because, man, you're, I love, you bring in a scripture that warms my heart. Oh, my gosh, I did not expect that. And I love it. You know, talk about mystical experiences and spiritual experience.

You know, one of the things that are so common. And, and again, I've experienced this. And I'm sure, you know, maybe you or others have. But, you know, when you're going through these medicines for, you know, these anxiety, depression, you know, pre-alments, you know, there's always these root causes, right? And it's, it's trauma, PTSD. It's all trauma-based.

And what's the common theme, right, when you have a successful treatment? It's forgiveness. It's, it's, it's, you know, I used to say that before treatment, I would relive my struggles. And I had parts of my past, which I were, I was conscious of. That was very bad. And I've had, you know, things. on earth that were subconscious and hidden that were very, very bad.

But the difference is reliving something, you never break the loop. But remembering something, you're not reliving it. So we're talking about forgiveness for letting it go. And you don't have to look very far from any of the main religions to your point in scripture. It's what's, you know, what are the rules? Forgive each other, love one another, honor thy neighbor, honor thy father. You know, it's about don't let other people. You know, there's a great story about these two monks.

And I think it was maybe it was an Eckhart Toll book. I have to remember where I read it. But, you know, these two monks were walking down the street and, you know, walking up this hill and there's a big old ditch. And they're not supposed to interact or talk to anybody. And there was this person in distress. And so, you know, one of the monks, you know, carry this woman and helped her to the destination. And then they kept on walking and they finally got there and they were allowed to talk.

And one monk said the other, you know, what did you? What did you do? Why did you carry that woman? And the monk responded, why are you still carrying her? Let's move on. Let's forgive and go on, right? So the power of release, right? Yeah, that's really well said.

And I think it's becoming clear to me, and I think, in everyone listening to this, why, in fact, you are the perfect person to put on this event. You know, when I read through the article that you had posted, a while back about the one thing that you may have been most proud of. I'll get your advice on that or get your opinion on that, but was this incredible way in which everyone was brought together. And I thought it was profound that you contrasted the feeling of 9-11 with the feeling there. And it brings up this idea of there's two ways people come together. One is through inspiration and one is through desperation. I think you found a way to use the inspiration modeling. Congratulations for that. Maybe you

could break that down for us. Yeah, thank you. Well, I would be, horribly embarrassed if I did not well spread the congratulations to, you know, the thought leaders, the individuals, you know, from maps to our speakers, to our partners, to my team, to the entire ecosystem, to our community partners. I mean, this thing literally took, you know, yeoman's work and more than one village to get out there. So I appreciate it, but I will reflect that light among an unbelievable world of partners and coworkers. You know, but you mentioned, you know, people come together of inspiration, and I would probably tweak it to say tragedy, right? Maybe inspiration and tragedy. But this event brought people together, and that's why it was so special from both camps.

So many people here are dealing with their own tragedy, or they're dealing with other people's tragedy as practitioners, whether they're part of the indigenous community, the clinical community, the business community, whether they're building clinics, performing ceremonies, You know, they're looking for decriminalization. They're policy advocates. They're investing. So they came from this from a point of, you know, I want to heal or I've been healed. And then you have the people who come to it saying, I want to help heal.

And so when you have those two forces coming together, you create a lot of oneness, a lot of singularity, which was like nothing I've ever experienced before ever in my professional career. And again, I can take that any way you want, but that's, that was the, that's the, I think those are the two channels that made this so incredibly special. Yeah. I mean, what was that like? I'm sure that building up to it, there was some anticipation and that there were, you know, some unreal, unseen consequences or some unseen, oh, no, you know, it seems to me at always events, there's, right, right, right? But what was it like anticipating and making this thing work the way it did? Yeah, I wish it was only 75 things we were worried about on any given day. My beard wasn't as gray before we started on this event. That's the truth.

So, you know, this was a business conference. This was a festival. This was an exhibition. This was a meetup. This was a community rally. This was an advocacy event. This was everything you can get, into one week plus long experience.

And there was only so much you can prepare for on what that's going to look like. And, you know, this is a community that has not gotten together at the size since 2017, the last psychedelic science. So you have all the current momentum. And then you have all the pent up momentum. And then you just get there. And it's like, oh. And when we open up the doors on that Monday for the workshop day and the lines were out the door,

like, all right, let's go to continuously planning. How do we get people into their sessions and how do we get things moving? But, you know, everywhere you go in this country, and I'll just talk about the U.S. right now, everywhere you go, it's political, right? Every conversation you have, for the most part, there's a division. And it can be something as simple as, you know, I believe that, you know, I believe that I should be able to get my energy from nuclear power and you don't. Okay. To the absolute complex, right, which is everything in the world that we don't want to talk about with mainstream media. Because it's just awful no matter

what side you're on. But when you're at this event, no one cared what your thoughts were, right? No one came up to you expecting you to be, you know, pro-R-Kahn de-Krim, pro-er-con psychedelics, pro-er-con healing. You know, we had Jared Paulus and Rick Perry, Republican and Democrat speaking back to back at this event, right? You know, you have Aaron Rogers and a Paul Stamman. You talk about two people that you would never think would be on the same stage talking about the same thing. Jared Polis, Rick Perry, Aaron Rogers, Paul Stamitz, just to name a few. And so I think by providing all of this diversity of thought, it actually was able to overcome any differences and bring people together. And that to me was

the magic sort of, that was all throughout the ether of the event that week. Yeah, I think it showed on the, there was something that showed on everybody's faces when they talked about it. You know, you could tell it was a momentous event where, you know, people were

there to, and they were blown away. It's, it is an interesting concept to have all of those different modalities together because each one seems like you would plan for it in a different matter, right? Like, this is the business side of it. This is the festival side of it. But when you bring all those things together, it's, it's quite an accomplishment, man. Well, I think it's a testimony to the movement. And I think it's a testimony to those who have been, you know, Rick has been at this, you know, since 1985 formally. And Lord knows, you know, we all seen,

you know, clips of Doblin X and what he's doing prior to that. But, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures. And we are in a world right now that is so broken that we don't even know. You know, there are so many of our brothers and sisters out that don't even know why they're angry. They don't know why they're depressed. They don't know why. I mean, there is a direct correlation right now.

Why is workforce participation at the lowest levels that has been, I think, in recorded history? Is it because people don't want money? Is it because people don't want to work anymore? there is a withdrawal. And this is part of the consequences and side effect of a mental health time bomb leading up to 2020. And then, you know, an Oppenheimer nuclear style explosion being put on top of it, you know, during the pandemic from lots of levels. And so I think what brings everyone together is you can't hide going back to our opening conversation. You can't run away from the suffering. You see it everywhere, whether it's your family, your friends, parents, coworkers, you know, in entertainment,

in culture, in sports, you just can't hide from the fact that there are a lot of people, a lot of people who need help. And we need to try something different

because what we've been trying in this country has not been working. Yeah, it's a great point. And it's interesting to see the, in some ways, you know,

I think our country has ran on fear. Like fear has been the gasoline to keep the engine running. And we see it in the workplace. You know, we see it in the way we treat our people that are ill. We see it in business models.

You know, isn't it interesting that, you know, you have, I can give you a copier for free, but you've got to come to me like a drug dealer to buy the ink. You know, the first one's free, like any good drug dealer, right? And it's based on the model of addiction. And it's, I don't know that that was something that they thought about, But it's easy to look around from a third person point of view. Hey, this model's working here and it's working here. Oh, it's working here.

It's working here. And the thing that underlies all of that is fear. And sometimes I worry a little bit that what psychedelics do is this beautiful thing that make you face your fears. And maybe that's why there's this awakening of people that don't want to go and be scared into productivity. They don't want to go and be forced into doing something they don't want to do. They would like to try to investigate what they're. their best life looks like and they're willing to take that chance. But what scares me is, what is the machine going to do?

Like it seems to me on some level that, you know, the, the over-regulation, the over-taxation, and the medical model is sort of a gatekeeper for psychedelics. I don't know if I'm just going way too far out here, but it seems like they're trying to keep that model in the chain link fence over here. Is that too crazy? No, I think you are nailing every possible point. You know, we, you know, our economy is a plan obsolescence economy. Yeah.

Right. We are a nation. We are a consumer driven economy. And, you know, listen, there's good and bad to it. And I, you know, I don't see things in, in those kinds of, you know, absolutes when it comes to our society. But, you know, you buy something because it's going to break and it's going to be cheaper to buy a new one than to replace it. I mean, that's, that's the world that we live in. And unfortunately, when it comes to mental health, you have something that is very hard to easily fix.

Now, do I think there's some evil group of people who got together in the late 70s and said, we're going to create all these medicines that people are going to have to take forever and they're going to have horrible side effects and they're not going to get well, but they'll think they're doing good enough if that's our treatment? No, that's not what I feel that's happened. I'm also aware that psilocybin was the most prescribed medicine for mental health issues prior to 1971. And anyone who wants to say if he doesn't know about that, just read about Kerry Grant and his life story around LSD and how it saved his life and his horrific backstory.

And you talk about someone who wouldn't want to be Carrie Grant. Right. And even Kerry Grant always said that I can't even be Carrie Grant because he made Carrie Grant up. You know, he's born Archie Leach. And, you know, he's like, I'm not even Carrie Grant. So if a guy who looks like he's got it all needed massive psychedelic assistant therapy to overcome his traumas and his challenges and his issues, then you could only imagine what the average person, you know, has to deal with. And, you know, it's funny.

I don't mean to keep on coming back to this, but I just kind of like where you're directing it, which is, and don't even remember wrong, I'll talk about the conference forever. Whatever you want, man. But, you know, it's when, when things got really bad, you know, with the pandemic, Yeah. I started doing research on, I tried to find research papers on the mental health implications of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Because I started thinking to myself, you know, we're giving all these, you know, relatively crap mitigation measures against an airborne virus, which let's just be honest,

that's what they were. But our parents were given crap mitigation measures against nuclear attack by hiding under their desk, right? And it was all done to basically give you a false sense of protection and not face your fear. Right. We live in a world right now. And it's funny, you know, I just was listening to a podcast. Another podcast in this, Tim Keller.

And he was talking about how, you know, those that have faith versus those that don't. And there was a doctor who was doing treatment in India and the U.S. Yeah. And he found that despite the U.S.'s incredibly better standard of living and standard of care and all this stuff, the ability to confront fear was so much diminished here in the U.S. then in India. Now, there's obviously religious and theological implications to that, but we live in a world where it's all about numbing and hiding and not facing your fears, right?

And so anyway, I looked at this paper about the Cuban Missile Crisis, and it showed studies, and I think it tailed off in the 70s or 80s that the mental. health impact of the fear that that caused children in 1962, if my memory is correct, was last and documented through the 80s. 20 plus years later was that terrifying fear of annihilation, right? And so here we are back again, and then you add this whole other level, but you now also have opioids, you have social media, you have all these other factors that are just burning this and, you know, this raging mental health inferno. And so to tie it all back again together, people realize there's got to be a better way.

And psychedelics are not the cure. They are a tool. They are part of the solution. They're not for everybody. And for an event to bring all these people together who legit, I've never heard more people talk about an event that they're still processing. So over a month since this event's happened, they're still processing it. Man, if that's not impact, I don't know what it is.

Yeah. On some level, hearing you say that speaks volumes of the reason we're in the situation we're in. If we look at generational trauma and we just kind of go abstract for a minute and we say that each generation is a person, the person that was scared when they were a child because of a nuclear war are the people that are running things now. And it makes sense how fearful they would be of a nuclear war now. And it makes sense that the majority of people are that age who are still hold lots and lots of power. Like, of course they're going to think that. Of course we're going to have these different narratives to the generations.

You know, you get some exes in there. They're like, what are you talking about? And then you get the younger generations like, these people are crazy. They're out of their minds. Right. If you just begin to understand the conditioning that happened throughout the generations, you can begin to get a better understanding of how generational people think. And then you can get a better understanding of, hey,

What are some things that we could, the hook that we could throw out there, bring everybody in, which it's, I'm glad you put it that way. I never thought about it from a generational standard, but it's pretty true, the conditioning that we go through. And you go back to what we said earlier, that life is about repeating patterns. And part of my integration after my therapies was understand what the repeating patterns are. You know, you have a generation of young people right now that, you know, grew up in great school with 9-11. And then before you know it, there's a major great recession. banking crisis, right? And then before you know it, you're living in the COVID era. And then these things, these are three major events that have all happened. And, you know, you could be 24 years

old and you will not have known five years of stability. And you only would have known three or four years without even us being in a war. I mean, that's conditioning is unbelievable. And then you live in a world where, you know, we are digitally addicted purposely to stay. You know, I'm not on, I am on Instagram to post a picture of my dog and my kids. I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not on any of that other stuff. I got off of it seven years ago because I saw the loop.

And I'm like, I am not playing by this game here. I'm sorry. It's just terrible for your mental health. And you're just getting reinforced and reinforced and reinforced. And then what do you do? You lock people in their homes. And all they're doing is getting the loop, getting the loop. So there's a lot of damage that has to be undone.

And what's fascinating to me, about how you overcome this issue. You mentioned you have people who grow up, threat of nuclear war, now we're in the country, threat of nuclear war, right? Like, you can't really blame them. Like, I understand it. Right.

So what's the answer? And you have to go, you have to find individuals willing to go to real data and remove emotion. And so think about the psychedelics movement, right? I'm going to draw you, I'm going to paint you two parallels. Beautiful.

Opioids. clinical trial phase one phase two phase three FDA approved prescribable reimbursable given to people we all know what has happened with the abuse the addiction the death and despair from opioids to deal with trauma and pain psychedelics which have been known in some cultures for thousands of years to work right no clinical data you're not going to tell indigenous tribes that the clinical trials, you know, to prove that, you know, peyote is this magical, mystical, healing psychedelic. It's just insulting to them.

But what these, what these companies are doing, you know, maps and compass and tie and, you know, the list goes on, right? Is that they are, they have decided, there was a conscious decision and a lot of willpower and effort to play by the system where your data is going to be public. You're going to publish your results. You're going to publish your adverse events. you're going to follow phase one, phase two, phase three of clinical trials to get the approval for a medicine that anyone who's been involved with them knows works a million times better than

everything else. So it's only through shedding a bright light on the data and the process and following the system. Do I think we start to change the way we get out of these repeating behaviors of letting emotion and traumas and past sort of fears guide our decisions? And that's why this is such a see change moment. It's well said. I heard an interesting reference a while back that was talking about, they were talking about the establishment. And they used a metaphor like, you know, there was this idea back in the 60s that you

learn how to use the master's tools and you become a master with them. And then you go to the master's house and you can break down his house. But the problem is people spent 30 years learning how to use the master's tools. and they got to the master's house and they realized the master doesn't live there anymore. He lives in Malibu now, but his son lives there and he has dreadlocks and he's pretty cool and he invites you in for an ayahuasca ceremony.

You're like, yeah, yeah, he's kind of cool. And you're like, damn it. You're just malleous thing, you know. But maybe it's the time that changes. And I want to touch on this idea that you said too about indigenous people not needing a clinical trial. Like it works.

on some level, you know, on some level, why is science steering away from the idea of spirituality? I understand that people in science are disgusted by the idea of magical thinking. But we don't even have the tools to measure non-Euclidean space. So we don't, we can't measure it, but it works. Why are we desperately trying to find problems with something that works? I mean, I am beyond unqualified. to properly answer that. Me too. Me too. I can spitfall my gut reaction. Please, please do. So what did Ben Franklin say it was? It's about democracy. It's the worst form of government

except for all the others. Yeah, yeah. Probably the same thing would be said about capitalism. It's the worst form of, you know, of an economy except for all the others and just look at every other type of economy and see what it's produced and you'll agree. Okay, this is pretty terrible, but it's better than what's out there. So I think we are in a world where you know, the approval process for medicines in this country is by no way perfect. It's got lots of flaws. But again, it operates within the system that we have accepted as truth. Right.

And I think so I think clinically proving these things work and making sure that aren't adverse effects and being able to report, you know, 60, 70, 80 plus percent in terms of success rate. this allows people in many ways going back to your prior comment it gets the emotion out of the decision-making authority now there is more emotion that that needs to get addressed certainly but i think what it allows it allows these medicines to be viewed in a way that are palatable to individuals that either are unable unwilling or cannot quantify the unquantifiable How do you measure your spiritual experience when you're undergoing a met? How? Oh, it was seven.

What? Four? Three thousand? Apple? What is the seven? Right? But you can measure I was clinically diagnosed a PTSD after six months of my blah, blah, blah, therapy and my dot-da-d treatment.

67% of the individuals no longer were diagnosed with PTSD. Right? And then that's how you. build and it's almost like the mystical spiritual and I hate this expression side effects of the experience you know is the whipped cream on top but it's really going to be the side effects that you're going to see the most amount of growth in healing but it's going to kind of sneak in the door through the clinical right that's that's that's the best way I can try to answer that that part I love it it was really, really well said. And when I hear the idea of sneak through the trap door,

sometimes I think that psychedelics are, in fact, a Trojan horse, like trying to find its way into the world of the medical community. Like, let's just bring this thing in. Look what we got. Nice little present for you guys. And then everybody starts taking it. And they're like, wait a minute, maybe we could measure results in the tears of joy from their partners. It's not a horrible war on drugs. we don't want people to not serve in war we don't want them to think they don't go kill people oh my gosh heaven forbid that look i mean maybe on some level i'll probably get in trouble for saying this but does leary always have to be a pejorative you know what i mean like look on some level who's going to work in the factories

who's going to go down and do all these things that nobody wants to do there has to be pain there has to be pressure. People have to go into the cooker. That's so horrible to say, but maybe that's what people are thinking. Well, you know, it's funny. It goes back to this, this, you know, this sort of, you know, plant obsolescence economy and why do we feel so shallow and hollow, which is, you know, my dad, my dad was a public school teacher for 32 years. He was a assistant principal and he built a vocational education program for a very large school in New York City. And he taught kids how to become nurses and dental tech assistants and woodworkers and carpenters and plumbers and mechanics, right? And somewhere along the lines in the late 90s, you know, with the invention of the internet, with the commercialization of the internet, right?

I don't want to disparage. I'll gore on the people who came before him. But, you know, we got to this world where it's all science and math. Right. Right. It's all science and math. So we have to get away from connecting with things we build, we fix and repair, and those become less important jobs. You know, the joke is, what are you going to become?

A truck driver, a janitor, a plumber. They all probably make more than the average person coming out of college with a quarter million dollars a debt. Guaranteed. You know, so, and so, you know, you think about, you know, but why is that? And I think it's about purpose and it's about meaning. Well, you know, maybe you don't want to, you know, replace pipes and you don't want to, you know, rebuild a carburetor and, you know, you don't want to install a drywall. I get that, right? But, you know, you don't want to sit at a desk and you probably don't want to go through spreadsheets and you don't want to, you know, create drip campaigns in your EMS system, right?

But you physically see what you are accomplishing. You physically see what you're doing and what you're repairing. And I think that vocational spirit is beginning to enter the. psychedelic practitioner community because you can now unlike prescribing medicines or talk therapy which might take years decades or never work using these medicines as tools as part of a healing journey guess what you can see the drywall being hung you can see the pipes start flowing with water you can turn the car and guess what ignition's going to happen and the vehicle is going to start going and i can't diminish that there's that going on as well and being able to

see results from your work. And that is also a testament to the power of these medicines. Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that we see guild and unions becoming bigger forces. And, you know, there's almost a return to the spiritual nature of getting your hands dirty. You know, and I think that there's a, like, I love it. I think that I've been, I was a truck driver for 26 years. Really? I did not know that for the record. Yeah. Well, it's everything you said is true.

Like I have, there's like a stigma to it for sure. But I loved parts of it that were really amazing. And, you know, in some level, I think that we can narrow it down to a loss of faith or spirituality in whatever you do. Because if you find meaning in yourself, then you can find meaning in what you do. There's something spiritual about being and doing something every day, regardless of what it is. For me, when I was a truck driver, like I was a UPS driver, so I would deliver to like 180 houses a day. And I would make friends with all the little kids. And I was like, this is so amazing.

Like, I get to watch this little kid grow up every day. Every day this kid would come out and I would just bring like a magic trick or something like that. But it was like I was his uncle in some way. You know what I mean? And like, it was spiritual to me. And I think that that is, there's the same thing that goes on for a pipe fitter. There's the same thing for a guy that does drywall that goes. new houses every day and learns new people.

And if you can harness that spirituality in yourself, it doesn't matter what you do because you are the bridge to creating other people's lives in a meaningful way. Now, you become the meaning. But we did. We've gotten away from this idea. I don't know why it happened or what, but I do agree with you that it seems to be in the math and sciences that we have elevated them to a level that, you know, maybe they don't, we all deserve to be at a high level, but somehow they have broken away from everything else in a weird

sort of way. I mean, listen, I think we could unravel a whole other discussion on how we've gotten this far away. And listen, you know, faith has played as good and as culpable of a role in this, right? Which is, you know, when people talk about we've gotten away from faith as a country, you know, you will always get, you'll always get, you know, people where churches and synagogues and where they've been hurt. They've been hurt by religion, right? Yeah. And they're not wrong. It's been awful.

Sure. Your journey, my journey. We've all had experiences. But if we can kind of separate that for a moment and I want to tie it back to what you just said. Yeah, please. What's the meaning of life? Right. And if your meaning is to serve a higher power, in my case, your case, God.

And you want to please God. And you please God by doing good things. making meaningful impacts and seeing a kid smile or maybe the dog you gave the bone to or healing somebody or solving someone's problem when their car won't start, their AC goes or their home needs to be built. You know, these, you know, and for me, you know, I would not be who I am right now if I was running, you know, if I ran the world's largest, I don't know, e-commerce, e-commerce, right? I mean, that's, you know, yes, I'm sure it would be. financially enjoyable.

I don't care if it's easier to process your payment online. And that's with a lot of respect to the e-commerce community. I get it. But my calling is to do, is to play the role that I've been put on this planet to help do my part to spread healing. And my spiritual gifts are talking, communicating, convening. And if I can do that, that fills me with joy to help,

you know, help give me that meaning to your point of meaning. And, you know, when you don't have a meaning, and if you're, you know, if you wake up in the morning and you can't figure out, what's the point of my life? Like, that's a problem. And maybe what you hold truth. And listen, you could be religious and not know the point of your life. You could be an atheist and not know the point of your life. Yeah. This isn't one or the other. But if you're asking that question, maybe it's time that you consider throwing out your assumptions and then if you so choose psychedelics are a way to not only heal traumas as you know but they can open up your mind possibly if you are a believer to the divine or to nature or to some combination a spiritual

moment that may give you a sense of what that meaning is and now think about the trickle-down impact that will have on you and your children and your grandchildren and your grandchildren children, et cetera, et cetera. And that is the power of these medicines and the movement. It's so well said. It's so well said. I was talking to a good friend of mine, Dr. David Solomon, who is an expert in medieval mystics. We often talk about the mystic experience. And he's such a wealth of knowledge. Dr. David, if you're listening, I love you, man. Thank you for everything you've done. He's got some great books out there. But in a way, the mystic experience seems to be very similar to the psychedelic experience. And there is something ineffable about it.

Like it's, and I think, I get goosebumps when I think about it because the best way you can describe it is by reading scriptures of any divine text. Like that's describing so much faith. It's describing so much mysticism. It's describing the world in such a beautiful way that makes sense. But they did it in words, so it doesn't quite fit. But once you have, maybe not everybody, Like we know it's not for everybody, but the psychedelic experience can really bring or paint a picture in your mind of what faith is. And it's very difficult to deny faith once you have had a breakthrough psychedelic experience. What do you think is the relationship between spirituality and psychedelics? I think they are incredibly directly linked.

You know, I believe that they are, you know, they have been put here on this planet for a purpose. And I think preventing individuals. from accessing these medicines is just a horrible detriment, you know, to us as a people and our culture. And I do believe they have to be safe. They have to be accessible and affordable. And just like I wouldn't want to give someone uranium, uranium has a place in creating, you know, a relatively zero carbon footprint energy plant, right? So, you know, I think context matters in this case here. But, you know, When you can, when you are able to shed your ego and you're able to have no barriers up on what can be received, you know, and again, this is just, I'm guessing. We don't know, right?

You know, that level of consciousness is almost like, you know, you have this antenna in your brain. And once you are, once you really become sentient and really beyond like newborn toddler, you get a protective cover, right? It's your, it's your default mode mechanism. It's your protection. It's your fight or flight. It's your personality. It's your routine.

It's who you are. And it is so hard to crack open just a little bit. But there are many people who can. I mean, you know, you know, meditation. I knew someone who'd meditate for an hour every morning. Indian gentlemen, love him to death. And he was able to reach a plane of consciousness that, you know, I couldn't do breathwork, non-psychedelic tripping, right?

You don't need a medicine to reach that. But what I think it almost does is like that protective shell opens up just enough. And it's almost like you get your antenna, you know, to the third heaven, right? The three heavens, right? There's the one here. There's the stars in the moon. And then there's God's kingdom. That third heaven.

And you get that level of connection. and that is where you get this spiritual encounter, which dovetails with your feeling journey as well. So that's Ben's opinion. It might very well be absolute garbage, and I can't validate it, but that's at least what I tend to think it is. Because you know why?

It's too common. Too many people report it. Too many people report spiritual, mystical, magical, I hated words, side effect, of your psychedalic experience. but to me it makes sense, right? To me it makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. It's maybe it's on some level it speaks to people's need to have control. Because, you know, if there is a higher power, then that means maybe you're not in control. And if you're not in control, then maybe you're not right. And if you're not right, well, then how do you know, how can you tell people what to do if you're not the person that's right? And it's fun to think about in some ways. It is because it's, you know, and this is, I think, an ongoing issue, and there's no easy answer, right, which is, you know, we as humans, and certainly in my belief system, you know, I do believe that it is, you know, we are following God's plan. But God's plan also includes free will. And you have, and, you know, again, taking from my faith, you know, there is nothing that says if you are not a Christ follower, you know, for all for all damnation and eternity, right? Like, God gives you the choice.

on whether or not you want to follow Jesus. You're given that free will choice. You're given that free will choice on whether you, you know, whether you're Jewish, whether you're Islam, whether you're Buddhist, you know, whether you're Shinto, whether you just commune with nature. You're given free will. Something is giving you that free will. So depending on what you believe, what are you going to do with that free will?

And I think that's, I think that's the crux of the meaning and the thinking. but to tie kind of you know back together yeah all of what we're talking about if i could bottle it up this would be the official scent of psych science 24 that was brilliant helping you would get wiffs the the the aroma you know the the the sort of the the fleeting scent of mysticism and clinical of science and therapy, of research and business and connection and all these great things. And really, to me, just like I said in the beginning, the psychedelics, that's the gasoline. It's what you do after that, where the change is made to me. It's what happens after this show, where the true impact in our communities need to be felt.

So it's what happens next. That to me is as if not more interesting and exciting. And that question is for me, my business and others as well that were at this show. What happens from that mystical experience of psychedelic science? Okay. Now I want to shift gears here because you just said something that I find fascinating. And in one of your articles, there's a quote that says, intensive analysis of terabytes of digital and anecdotal data, meticulously processing and

soliciting feedback from attendees, speakers, sponsors, exhibitors, and partners. When I listen to that, I'm like, momentum, look at these guys. They have so, they are, the wheels are turning. These guys are not even, they haven't even begun. They're just now looking at the best way to possibly move this thing forward. they just had the first wave of the mushroom trip. They're getting ready to, they're not even close to peaking.

So what are you going to do with all that data, Ben? What's coming up? You can see the future with that kind of stuff sometimes, man. What is your... Sometimes you tell you. I think, listen, it's still an ongoing process. I mean, clearly, you know, there will be, you know, the next version of this big show,

which will be announcing very shortly on where and when that's going to look like. But, you know, I'll give you a good example. And this is, you know, this is, I'll be a little vague because I need to be, but I'll try not to be too vague where it's unfortunate boring. There are areas of this country right now that need the momentum from what happened in Denver to help change and win hearts and minds with the ultimate goal of getting more healing to more people, right? You know, I'll be, I'll tell, it's easier to tell you what I'm not. focused on right here. Perfect. I love it. I'm not focused on the next investor conference. I'm not focused on the next psychedelic startup conference. And that's nothing against people who focus on psychedelics and startups. Right. I'm not focused on the legal complexities of

pharma IP and what's going on in the court system. Right. I'm not interested in that. I am interested in how do we take all this information, all these people, all this energy, all this momentum. And how do we apply it to the people who are in parts of this country that are knocking on the door, but they're about to get and push forward access to these medicines, whether it's the early stages of policy, whether it's the mid to late stages of application and deployment, or whether it's the very late stages, which is how do we scale, right? Colorado, Oregon, two good examples, right, they're in the late stages, relative late stages. stages. I know there's still a lot that has to happen, but get my analogy. Sure. You know,

I've come back. I live in South Carolina. First thing I did is I have a meeting with my local state legislature and I'm going to talk about psychedelics. And I'm going to talk about, and I'm going to bring in my colleagues and friends who I met from the veterans community who live here in South Carolina with me. And I want to start working on policy change right here in my home state that I love tremendously. And I want them to start having conversations. And I want them to start having conversations, not pushing this, not forcing, this has to be organic. People need time. You say psychedelics in a lot of parts of this country and I talk about it when I meet my friends. Some of them still have no idea. Look where you are in Hawaii. You're slowly moving in that policy,

you know, in the policy review and change. And you're Hawaii of all places. Like, I don't be first at all of this, right? You know? So, so, you know, so I think it's how do we start acting locally. How do we start? Listen, the big stuff's going to come. It's going to be great. We're going to have 25,000 people at the next event. I have no doubt about it.

It's going to be something unreal. And we are going to keep our plans a little under wraps, but you want to make these things come out when they're complete, but it's going to be beautiful and glorious. But that's the next therapy session. Now we are the ambassadors of integration. What do we do to make real change and help real people? And you're going to see a lot of stuff coming from momentum,

over the next month or so, which will help fill in what we plan and what we will be doing with our integration. It's so fractal to me because the same thing happens after a high dose psychedelic state is that you got to come back to Earth and do the work. You got to do the integration. You got to find which right in you. And that's the same thing for what it sounds like after Psych 23 is like, hey, you had the event. You went to the mountain top.

You saw what is possible. Now let's go do the work. You know, it's interesting, right? Right. And there are a number of people, you know, in my industry and in the events business that, hey, let's do it again in six months. Let's do it again. Let's do it. I get it. Listen, we could do it. My team is phenomenal. I am confident we can pull pretty much so anything off in any time frame and be great. It's how awesome my team is. But, you know, you don't want to have your MDMA therapy. You don't want to sit with MDMA. You don't want to have that, you know, in June. And you don't want to do it again in July. Like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, need time to integrate and to think, you know, you talk about the hero's dose, right? You want to be able to actually integrate the old life with the new one. And that's really where we need to focus on. And I think that's where the community is focusing on, because that's part of the early

data that we are getting. And again, that will be revealed soon enough, but that's kind of where it's all coming from. It's so beautiful to see the way in which things are unfolding. And it it warms my heart to see the conscious method of choice to put the medicine where it needs to be, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? If you look at the event like medicine, it's a beautiful thing to think about. And, you know, I guess that the one, another thing that I've been thinking about for quite some time is the idea that the world seems to be changing. And this is this is kind of my, this idea that I've been working with for a while. And I'd love to get your opinion on it.

It seems to me that there's a great book called, there's a great book by Marshall McLuhan, and it's called The Gutenberg Galaxy. And I'm really just pushing it because I want everyone to read it. Because in that book, he talks about how the world of typography, the printing press, fundamentally changed our sense ratios. You know, we became a... I've heard of this before.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so think about the way we consume media. And so he he thought to himself and he gives so much incredible evidence for the way we consume information. If you change what emphasis you give to sight, they're like the wheels and a clock. It changes all of your other senses. And it changes the way you see the world. And it changes your relationships. It changes everything. And so on a psychedelic experience, I believe what's happening is that you are changing your sense ratios again. And I had a a really interesting chat with our friend chat GPT, and I asked him this question. I said, chat GPT, what would the world look like if a human being changed his sense ratios? And it blew my mind. I almost had to take a knee for a minute because it was, it explained to me what a psychedelic trip was. And some of the points that it pointed out was the world would look radically different to society. We would see and hear information in ways we do not know now. Fundamental relationships would be changed. There's a good chance that would be much more

empathetic. And I was just like, I was reading all these things and I'm like, okay, well, there's got to be some sense to that. So this is kind of my way of sneaking in this idea of sense ratios. But what do you think about sense ratios, Ben? Is that something that not only might be happening on a psychedelic trip, but might that be something that could happen on a national or a global level? Well, we all know that time is a human construct. Yes. You know, the earth will revolve around the sun, 365 and a quarter, you know, rotations, and that becomes your year and then you true it up every four years and 24 hours, you know, is your, is your time. And, you know, human is, you know, time's a human construct. And so when you're, when you're,

when you're having a psychedelic experience, you know, time is meaningless. You have no idea. When I had my first, you know, my first experience, you know, it started around 10, 30, 11 o'clock. and the next thing I know it's like 6 p.m. I'm like, what? You know, when they say it's 10, you know, 10 years of therapy in seven hours, they were not kidding. You know, and especially, you know, on the MDMA front, you are, you know, it's a lucid dream. So you're basically skating between two worlds. You're not hallucinating.

Everything that happens in these empathogens, they're real. Like, they're not just, no, that was real. They are real because you don't hallucinate. And so, you know, part of the success, and I've been very fortunate with the guides that I've had to work with, but, you know, part of the integration to your concert of time is the healing can come in by rewriting over the bad chapters of your life. And you, in essence, are creating a parallel universe. Yeah, right? You were here. Something really bad happened here, and it turned into this.

right and when you do with people with PTSD and other traumas, you know, through good therapy, psychedelic therapy and good talk therapy and somatic therapy afterwards, you know, you're able to come back here, rewrite this story. This doesn't cease to exist, but this becomes the new norm. So if you could achieve that, then the sense of the sense of senses of time, those can be impacted in ways that I don't think we can understand. Right? How do you begin to quantify? One of MAPS's great studies is bringing together Israelis and Palestinians for an MDMA session, right?

Man, you could create peace between, you know, two age-old enemies. And again, I'm not suggesting that, you know, we put it in the water and it's a CIA sci-off. Free will, big believer in freedom. choose to do it, know your stuff. But you think about the differences that these things can make in time. It's not going to be quick, but another 20 years, which is a generation, 22 years, a generation. And you start having people go from talk therapy and SSR, you know, and SSRI. And you go into Silas Seidlin and MVMA and 5MEO.

And you're going to start seeing some real big changes. And, you know, that's kind of what I pray for that. That those are the opportunities that people have. And, you know, in this country alone, I think the last stat was like 80% of the people in this country have not had a psychedelic experience. It might be 78 or 80, something in that ballpark. So there are more people on the outside looking in. And to me, personally, those are the people I want to talk to. those are the people I want to reach.

And it might just not be me. It's me. It's you. It's your network. It's others. Those are the ones where the true change is going to happen. I don't need to convince anyone who went to psych science at psychedelics are good. Check.

Done. Easy. Right. How do you convince people that see psychedelics and think of Timothy Leary and think of tune in, turn on, drop back? Yeah. And think of trippiness and, you know, you're getting high. high and it's like we eating it's like how do you start going there back to me is the holy grail yeah i think that it seems to me the most converts in that particular demographic are people that have

seen a loved one get better yes right and you don't have to look too far than you know some of the great research that's happening in the ibega field right now you know some i think the last study i read was 82 or an 87 percent. I think curate was one of the last clinical studies I read. Don't quote me on that, but it's pretty findable. You have someone who is suffering as an addict and there is a treatment that almost eight, nine out of ten times will cure them. How do you not do whatever you can to get that medicine to someone in a safe and accessible and affordable way? Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a beautiful thing. Another,

interesting aspect that that seems to maybe get through to some people, at least it really broke through to me, is this idea. I've spoken to a few death doulas. And they have some incredible stories about sitting with people in their last minutes. And, you know, there's never, there's never talk of, I wish I would have worked longer. Or there's never talk of, I wish I would have, you know, done this. It was always like, I should have been a better dad, I should have been a better son or a better wife.

or I wish I would have taken more vacations, you know, and I wish I wouldn't have worried about this stuff. And I think that on some level that psychedelics can be a bridge for that too. And maybe people hearing that. And maybe the end of life palliative care can be an area where psychedelics begin to explore in a way that is more than it is now. Well, you know, one of the, you know, modern leaders is almost the wrong word. But ambassador's voices, you know, Dr. Roland,

Griffiths and everyone's familiar with his, you know, and if you're not real quickly, you know, he, you know, he reignited the research around psychedelics and psilocybin in the late 90s over at Hopkins. And his first foray into the research was, you know, terminal cancer and helping people cope. And, you know, for those that don't know, he is dying of terminal cancer right now. And I had the pleasure of spending some time with him. And, you know, a little funny story about the event is the day before the event, he was on our chat body had trouble using the app. And so I'm like, this is rolling. I'm not going to roll and talk to the chat.

So I spent 45 minutes with him on the phone, walking him through, getting him online and getting him on the app. And his gratitude for me to help him with this app, I'm like, you're rolling Griffith. You don't have to. I have to be thanking. You know, I thank you. You're the reason why we're here.

And he was just so grateful and appreciative. And, you know, going back to the death. And, you know, it goes back to meaning. If you, that is the ultimate fear. Ultimate fear. And, you know, I'll share this, you know, one portion, you know, from my last treatment. You know, after I'd gone through a lot of hard work during my treatment, now midway through the medicine, you know, I had died and I was reborn.

And when I was confronting my own death, I was not fearful. Now, for me, that's my faith, because I knew that. you know, I'm a Christ follower and that is the way to God and to heaven. And I was firm in my belief when I had no ego and no public facing facade to pretend. I was cracked open and I was facing my own death. And I wasn't scared. And I was, I was resurrected from that. And that is such an impactful experience. And, you know, I don't want to die, but I'm not scared of it. And I think that speaks to the heart of what are people's, you know, what are your fears? And, you know, depression, anxiety, addiction, yes, they're diseases, but they're also symptoms. They're symptoms of a rot, of a trauma. Yes,

there's chemical dependence. No denying it. But for, you know, for a good portion, I don't know what the data is. Again, I'm not a researcher, but it's a symptom of a bigger issue. And, you know, to kind of go back to how we started, it's, it's, it's, it's take the pill, take the pill, take the drug, I took the drink, I tried to numb myself for years from my pain, right? And yeah, it works a little bit, but then it wears off and it's still there and it's worse. And psychedelics and this and psychedelic therapy properly administered for the right person allows you to not numb the pain. It's to face it. You know, what's the one thing you read if you don't know anything about psychedelics, which is if you have an experience and you're facing your fear, your guide is going to tell you to face it.

You know, that's a one common theme. Your guide is going to tell you, face it, stare it down, don't be afraid. If it's evil, let it in. That's power. That's real power. You know, I, people who are really afraid to die, you know, there's a, there's a parable that speaks about God coming down and talking to someone and saying, would you die for me?

And he's like, yes. When God says, well, if you would die for me, would you really live for me? And I think so many people don't do that. Like if you can get it, like not fearing death gives you the authenticity and power to be who you are and have faith in what you can do. And when you do that, you'll make everybody around you better. Your relationships will get stronger. Your wife and your kids will smile more.

And your aunts and uncles that haven't come for years might come to see you. You may not want them to do. But the other thing that does as well, and this is for people who are curious to understand is the other thing it does, everything you've said is possible. But, you know, when you don't have that, you start putting your faith in the wrong places. Well said. You know, why do people get so worked up? It wasn't, I've been there. I am not beyond reproach.

Like, I have been there. Yeah. Why do people get so worked up over politics? because they put their faith in an individual and a party that they feel is going to help them. And you know what? If you truly, if you truly have faith, and you know, there's a whole other conversation on faith versus religion, right? But then you realize that the answer is not, the answer is not in a political party. It's not in another human being.

It's in one person in God, right? It's in Jesus and God. That's where your salvation, your hope and your help, that's where it comes from. Doesn't make a difference who you vote for. It doesn't make a difference with the brand you support. It doesn't make a difference which click you join. Right? That's not going to bring you help.

And unfortunately, you know, as we become more hollowed out and more broken and more dependent and more abused and more, you know, neglected, people have gravitated towards these polarizing areas where they feel that's where salvation comes. And what have we gotten for 50 years of looking for that? I don't think we've gotten much. better and I pretty certain it's gotten much worse. So open your mind, change your mind, if that's something that calls you is really what where I think is the future here. Yeah, I think that's a great spot. I walked you right up to the lot of time you gave me,

man. So I appreciate your time over here. You know, it's a, it's really fun. If you had more time, I hope you come back. We could probably continue the conversation for a lot longer. It's been a really amazing time. Thank you. Well, I want to thank you so much. I mean, your podcast, again, For the people who are listening first time, you have so many great guests that explore consciousness and the movement. And it's just unbelievable. Thank you because you're playing your role in this as well. And I'd love to come back and I'd love to weave this with faith and theology. And I'd be absolutely honor.

But I'm just grateful to you for this opportunity. I'm grateful for what you do. And you're part of the narrative and the movement to help get people healed. And I got nothing but love and respect for that. So thank you. I get goosebumps. And I'm really thankful. and I'm very fortunate and I have faith and love and everybody that shows up here and it's part of the plan, man.

So I'm just playing my part. But before I were to let you go, maybe you could explain to people the best place to find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. So the best place to find me socially as I have virtually no social media presence by choice is LinkedIn. Ben Greenswag. Look me up on LinkedIn. Follow me. I post. I write articles.

I do it because I want to share a message. I don't care about likes. I don't care about followers. I'm not a slave to that. I post. You like it, you do. You don't. You don't.

I sleep well at fine knowing other one. But that's how you could find me certainly socially on LinkedIn. We are going to be taking all this great energy, and we are putting it into some phenomenal action, which you're going to be seeing very soon in terms of what we're doing. For me, all roads. lead through helping people heal. Give people the knowledge and the access to the knowledge.

So take a step back. Everything that drives my business decisions, my personal decisions is everybody has a right to mental health balance. My job is to be one of many people like you to give people access to information. I don't force it. I don't recommend one or the other. people need to make their own choices, study up, listen, understand. And if something is resonating in your mind, like, hey, this is a little sticky. This might help me. And I encourage people to

explore it deeper and go further into it. So I talk about all this stuff on LinkedIn. Best way to keep up with what we're doing. And definitely stay tuned at Momentumevents.com and my LinkedIn, because there's going to be some really exciting announcements coming very soon. Super excited. It's fascinating to me that we start off with a left arm tattoo that talks about fear. and then we end up with a left arm tattoo with Socrates that says, challenge everything and ask, is that true? Oh my God.

I love, what a perfect bookend. I'm telling you, man. I love it. Are you a lefty, by the way? I'm a right-hander. Oh, see, that would have been the perfect ending. I'm a lot. Love it.

Great way to it. All right. Great way. Super fun. Okay, hang on one second. I'm going to talk to you briefly, but I'm going to hang up with the people for a moment. Ladies and gentlemen,

fantastic show, fantastic people. And if you're in the audience or you're watching, You're a fantastic person. There's great miracles about to happen in your life. I know it. Believe it. That's all we got for today. Aloha.