TrueLife - Chalice of Consciousness: Dr. Bianca’s Elixir of Psychedelic Insights

Starting point is 00:00:01 Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

Starting point is 00:00:40 The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope wherever you are, the sun is shining, or maybe there's a silver lining right above you and the birds are singing, the wind is at your back. I got an incredible show and guest for you today.

Starting point is 00:01:21 A warm embrace to all gathered here today as we embark on a journey of profound exploration and enlightenment with our esteemed guest, Dr. Bianca Sivan, I hope I pronounced that accurately. Hailing from the vibrant city of Brisbane, Australia, Bianca, is not just a clinical psychologist, but a trailblazer in the realms of indigenous psychedelic-assisted therapies, IPAT, where her work resonates at the intersection of complex trauma,

Starting point is 00:01:46 disassociative disorders and the profound healing potential of plant medicines. Dr. Bianca's professional journey extends far beyond the confines of conventional practice, reaching into the heart of indigenous communities and their time-honored traditions. As we welcome her, we celebrate her commitment to acknowledging the traditional custodians and her unwavering respect for indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing within the evolving landscape of psychedelics. Her quest for holistic well-being is not a mere profession, but a calling. From her immersive experience, in Mexico, undertaking a PhD in indigenous psychology to her dedicated work in hospitals, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Services, and private practice.

Starting point is 00:02:26 Dr. Bianca's journey has been one of discovery and cultural integration. As a beacon of cultural safety, Dr. Bianca is dedicated to the vision of developing a model of psychedelic-assisted therapy that respects and incorporates indigenous wisdom. Her approach is a harmonious blend of body, mind, spirit, community, and environment, creating a holistic framework for healing that transcends traditional boundaries. Intriguingly, Dr. Bianca doesn't just delve into the theoretical. She actively contributes to the psychedelic discourse. Her interest in 5MEODMT and her involvement in the 5MEO information and vital education platform

Starting point is 00:03:02 showcases her commitment to education, awareness, and understanding within the psychedelic community. Moreover, Dr. Bianca's pivotal role in ensuring indigenous representation and consideration in the psychedelic space is reflected in her cultural consultation services. Dr. Bianca, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate it. Thank you. That was quite the introduction. I always want people to see the reason why I have people on my podcast and the reason I expect them and all the cool work they're doing. And so I think that should be an important part of it. So thank you for that. How the landscape in the world of psychedelics is really changing at an interesting pace. And I guess maybe I'll just jump into this first question here of what was it that really got you motivated in getting into this space here?

Starting point is 00:03:54 So back when I started my PhD in 2012, I was working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people at the time. and quite aware of the challenges in accessing health and mental health services because the lack of cultural safety and inclusivity. And typically these services have been a source of harm to not only indigenous people here, but worldwide. So I did my PhD looking at barriers to service use and access, but I was doing somewhat of a comparative project with what was going on in Mexico City. So I ended up spending several years going back and forth between Australia and Mexico and working with

Starting point is 00:04:53 indigenous groups over there and looking at traditional medicine use and incorporating that into the Western medical model to make it as safe as possible when people. do need to access those particular tertiary services. So yeah, that was my introduction to the world of plant medicine as well. And from there on, became quite interested in the ability to work with these medicines for improved mental health and how do we safely and respectfully and with reparations. and reciprocity in mind, attempt to integrate these medicines into the Western medical model. It seems to me it doesn't take a long trip to the library to realize that for quite some time,

Starting point is 00:05:49 the Western world has moved its way into indigenous cultures and taken their medicine and used it for themselves and used it without context. How were you received when you started working with these cultures? I'm sure they probably weren't too happy to see you. Or maybe they're like, you're just one of the same or was there was there a sort of a getting to knowing period totally and I think that's the that's the point I mean I both here in Australia in Mexico it's not like I walked in and said hey this is my research and I'm going to do this and then I'm going to up and and leave in fact I've been to Mexico 13 times in the last 13 years so I'm clearly not

Starting point is 00:06:33 leaving anytime soon. And yeah, I spent several months just being with communities, getting to know people, volunteering my time in the service before even talking about the research project. And there was conversations around, you know, what kind of reciprocity might be involved. So it wasn't one way, street of only myself getting any benefit by being able to submit my thesis.

Starting point is 00:07:09 And so I think that is just generally across the board, such an important thing is establishing those relationships, you know, not only right relationship with the medicine, but right relationship and good interpersonal relationships with the communities, because in research, in particular, it is incredibly extractive. We go in, we get what we need and we leave again. And no wonder there might be a reluctance to work with Western researchers. So I certainly make it a priority

Starting point is 00:07:50 to spend time in communities where I can for no particular purpose other than to be part of community, get to know people and build relationships, because I think relationships are everything. I love that. Often when I think of when I think of mycelium growing, I think of the way it grows and it connects in some ways that it speaks of community. And when I look at the Western model,

Starting point is 00:08:18 it does seem that we have this extractive sort of personality trait. And we see it in relationships. We see it in abusive relationships. We see it in our relationship to, to oil or resources and is do you think that maybe on some level that that not only can the medicine teach us more about communities but the the indigenous ways can teach us better about communities absolutely and you know those collectivist cultures in general are well versed in the importance of community because the well-being of the individual is the well-being of the

Starting point is 00:09:07 community, you know, and so healing itself doesn't happen in isolation. It happens within the context of the community and the group and the collective well-being. And whereas in the West, we have this hyper-individualism, this fixation on the individual, so everyone's in individual therapy and the onus is on you and it's all about self-care rather than community care and I think that is inherently problematic because we're not lone wolves. We're not supposed to do things on our own. We are social beings but for many people, the trauma has also happened within the context of a relationship. And so they may be more inclined to stay away, disconnect,

Starting point is 00:10:02 as a means of trying to keep themselves safe. However, where trauma is relational, I think healing is also relational and happens within the context of a relationship. That's not to undermine the importance of individual therapy, but that's only one piece of the pie, it's only one part of the story. Yeah, it's, I was speaking with some people recently.

Starting point is 00:10:27 We were talking about mental wellness and illness and the way things are transmitted. And we began talking about how, you know, when flu season comes, everybody catches a cold. And it seems like illness can be contagious. Do you think that maybe wellness can be contagious as well? Yeah, especially within well communities. So if the community is well, then the individual is well. and that is, you know, taking care of each other, taking care of natural environment, taking care of spiritual and emotional well-being.

Starting point is 00:11:01 And I think that does happen together in community. So we have a lot to learn. We have a huge amount to learn. Yeah, it's fascinating. I'm glad that you're doing the work you're doing. One particular area that I've noticed in the West is, is that there seems to be a lack of rights of passage and rituals and ceremonies. I mean, there are some, but they seem devoid of the real meaning out there.

Starting point is 00:11:30 And you have traveled and spent time in a lot of indigenous cultures where they have ceremonies and there's a ritual and there's rights of passage. And I was wondering, maybe could you share an example of maybe the importance of rituals and rights of passage or maybe give an example? Yeah, and we absolutely have lost a lot of these things in the West. We've got various attempts at trying to create some kind of ritual or ceremony, but for the most part, that tends to happen in a very culturally appropriated way, which is also a problem. But I would say many individuals in the West are disconnected from their own ancestors.

Starting point is 00:12:16 You know, they don't know a lot about their family of origin or the rituals and ceremonies that have occurred within their own lineage for various reasons. So I think of myself as an Italian, Australian, a lot of my interest in ceremony and say plant medicine and herbalism comes from the Italian lineage. and incorporating ceremony and ritual, but from that particular lens. And so a lot of the work we do in IPAT is encouraging people to explore and connect with their own ancestry as a way of bringing back in and connecting with ceremony and ritual, but in a way that is not appropriating or taking from

Starting point is 00:13:14 another culture that they don't have any connection to or have not studied or learned or sought permission to work with or use whatever it is that they're using because at the same time from a well-being and a connection to self and one's place in in the greater universe, there are benefits to connecting with and going back to your own ancestry and knowing your own lineage and building that connection to your ancestors. So I think that's an important way that we can all connect with and bring back ceremony and ritual, but through our own lineages.

Starting point is 00:14:01 Yeah, I like that. I often think that there's this, In my life, I can only speak to what happened to me, but as I got older in life, I realized this concept of generational trauma and these patterns that repeat. You know, and sometimes it hits you like a brick. And for me, I was like, oh my gosh, no wonder I'm afraid of that. My whole family's afraid of that. Why wouldn't they be afraid of that? And it was like this aha moment.

Starting point is 00:14:26 And in some ways, I can't help but think that had there been a right of passage, like a young man becoming a man or a man becoming an elder, Like you become aware of that secret. On some level, the information is represented in that ceremony. It seems like in the West we're left to find it for ourselves. And you struggle there. Maybe that's why we have these disassociative diseases. Do you think there's a connection there between the generational trauma and some of the diseases we're seeing in the West?

Starting point is 00:15:00 Well, for sure, because if we take dissociation as a coping mechanism, and needing to shut down or disconnect or disconnect from our felt sense, our bodies in order to be safe, you know, that usually occurs as a result of not being able to co-regulate and re-regulate ourselves with our primary caregivers in childhood. And that may be because they themselves have also had to survive by detaching and disconnecting. You know, I think of most of our grandparents, for example,

Starting point is 00:15:43 have lived through wars or the Great Depression or being completely in survival mode. So things like affection and warmth, you know, kind of a luxury when what you're actually trying to do is meet your basic physiological needs on a day-to-day basis. And so then we parent in that way, as well. And we create the next generation of detachment, dissociation, disconnection from the felt sense, emotional, emotional suppression, those kinds of things. And so it's so powerful

Starting point is 00:16:26 when somebody goes on their healing journey to be the one in their family to break that cycle. to find safety and cultivate a felt sense of safety in their own body for the first time as an adult and to choose relationships and people that are conducive to their well-being, that they can feel safe around, that they can have kind of discernment to know who to connect to and who to keep at a very boundary distance

Starting point is 00:17:00 or whatever. So yeah, it can certainly be, inherited and not those for malicious reasons. You know, it can be like that example of that survival comes first, right? And so it is a, it's a real challenge for the people that are the cycle breakers in their family. It can often be quite a lonely journey. And it's the future generations that are the ones to benefit most from that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:34 Yeah. In some ways I can see it all through mythology. Like, you know, we have Odysseus and, you know, all these individual hero quest. And even Joseph Campbell talks about, like, the hero's journey. And I'm wondering maybe, can you, are there some different types of mythology or creation stories that you've learned by studying with indigenous people that maybe speak to a different type of lifestyle? Well, I can't speak to stories because they're not my stories to tell. And especially here in Australia, that knowledge is very protected. It is only meant for those who are in line to receive it.

Starting point is 00:18:20 And often if a story is shared with you, it is for you only. But with that in mind, and I guess this is the world. work of the amazing people that have co-created iPad together is those more general ways of knowing being and doing and in the indigenous world view of you know community and connection and the well-being of the group is the well-being the individual and the need for that support and that connection And so, you know, that I guess with your hero's journey, and when there is that call to adventure,

Starting point is 00:19:09 you do need your fellowship of the ring with you as well, right? You can't do this on your own. And this is something that has been inherently part of indigenous communities since time and memorial. In terms of frameworks that I work from here in Australia, there is a model of the social and emotional well-being model, which is what IPAT's protocols and consultation is based on. And it is that really holistic view of connection to land, connection to culture, connection to spirit and ancestry, connection to community, and all of those things. things together that encompass well-being. So there's nothing about that model that is just solely

Starting point is 00:20:07 about the individual. Of course, the individual has their responsibility to participate in their own recovery, their own healing journey, but also to the betterment of their community as well. But you're certainly not doing it on your own. Yeah. What are what are some of the core tenets of iPad? Like are like if you were to if you were to give us in the audience a sort of idea of what what it is that encompasses them, what their foundation is and what their messages. What would that be? Well yeah, iPad. We are a group that we've formed. It'll be about two years ago now with everything that has been going on here in a.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Australia with the legalisation of MDMA and psilocybin in particular to be prescribed under specific conditions. So MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment resistant depression. Then also there's lots of research going on with different plants containing various psychedelics. Many of these plants are incredibly sacred to Indigenous peoples worldwide. And there's plants here that are incredibly sacred to Indigenous peoples here in Australia. So we came together because we want to make sure that there is a voice for Indigenous peoples here in Australia to have a say and participate in this very rapidly changing. changing psychedelic landscape, but also to support the accessibility of plant medicines and their therapeutic use for indigenous peoples.

Starting point is 00:22:09 So we've come together to create a model of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy that incorporates these indigenous ways of knowing, being, and doing that has been created by indigenous peoples from the ground up so that for those people, that would like to access these treatments in that above ground setting, that there's a way that they can do that that is accessible and has cultural safety in mind. But at the same time, this model is a model for all people, because we believe that all people could benefit from working with plant medicines in this way through developing right relationship with these medicines,

Starting point is 00:22:57 for having reverence and respect for the Indigenous traditions, that this wisdom, which is not a new paradigm, as we're hearing, it's ancient wisdom, right? And so we really want to make sure there is that indigenous representation in the psychedelic space, that there's a place for Indigenous therapists that maybe don't have, have the recognized qualifications that are trained

Starting point is 00:23:27 in culturally informed trauma healing practices that are much better equipped to serve their communities and ensure that organizations, companies, et cetera, that are going to be working with these medicines are engaging with and consulting and building relationships with indigenous peoples if they are going to be working with and most likely profiting of these very sacred medicines. Yeah, that's really well said.

Starting point is 00:24:02 Sometimes I wonder if people are aware of the real dangers of taking some of the medicines away from the ceremony. Like when we talked about disassociatives, I think that there's a great, I think that medicinal plants have a great purpose and a possibility of really healing people's traumas. However, I think used in the wrong sense, they can put people in a place of fear and or disassociate, too. They could be used to disassociate, they could be used to run away from a problem, as much as they could be used to confront a problem. And it sounds that you're building a bridge there. Have you noticed that aspect, too? Like, there is a chance for people to use them the wrong way,

Starting point is 00:24:45 right? Yeah, absolutely. And without having that cultural container in place, which is where missing in the Western world for the most part, there's often not a soft place to land for people after participating in ceremonies or in various trial protocols or whatever the number of integration sessions isn't sufficient or it's not really hitting the mark because it's still this very individual centred thing that we're doing. The other thing is that plant medicines aren't for everybody. You know, at the end of the day, these medicines were not intended for treating mental

Starting point is 00:25:36 health conditions. They were used in ceremony, in the cultural context, and for specific reasons, you know, for very spiritual or sacred ceremony. and it's only really now that the West is catching up and adopting these practices that we're seeing more of this clinical application for the use of these medicines. But that means we have to know like who is suitable and who might not be suitable or at least right now and need further therapy or preparation to then potentially be a suitable candidate for working with these medicine. So particularly with trauma or complex trauma, if you have somebody who has dissociation as a feature of their trauma,

Starting point is 00:26:35 well, they may not have a really strong access to their grounded adult self. They might not have a fully developed or strong sense of self, And if you're going to go on a psychedelic journey and potentially experience things like ego dissolution, you need a strong sense of self to return to. Otherwise, you may likely exacerbate the fragmentation. And so you may also have a bunch of protector parts that have been there to help you throughout your lifetime

Starting point is 00:27:11 by being able to detach, disconnect, shut down in situations, where you physically can't get out of there. And so then if you take a psychedelic and you haven't prepared all parts of you and not all parts of you are on board with the process and not on board with the idea of surrendering and allowing, they will fight tooth and nail. And that's when you're going to have a really, really difficult journey

Starting point is 00:27:37 because your internal system is fighting against the process. And that's when people can, have very bad or very distressing trips and then go on to experience things like depersonalization, derealization, heightened anxiety, reactivations, all of those things in the aftermath. And they are typically the people that I see in my private practice that come to me after the fact of having participated in a ceremony of some kind where perhaps preparation constituted of a phone Paul that said are you taking SSRIs and then integration was a PDF with some average suggestions on it you know and then maybe they were in a ceremony of 60 people that only had two facilitators so

Starting point is 00:28:33 they're not supported they're not prepared they're likely not feeling safe they probably haven't met the facilitator or the other people prior to build that container of safety and not all of their internal system and their dissociative parts that have protected them and help them out over the years are not on board or consenting to the process. And essentially, their defences get blasted through. And that can be what is very destabilizing. And I know there's a lot of contention as to whether a bad trip exists. And is it a bad trip or is it just a challenging trip and I do think that there's a difference between challenging trips and bad trips for sure. What do you think that that difference is?

Starting point is 00:29:24 Well, a challenging trip is, you know, for me, a challenging trip is where you might go through a process of things that are really, really painful, really uncomfortable, absolutely challenging, but you are held, you're supported. There's someone or your facilitators, your therapist, whatever, holding you in that. So you're not going through that alone because challenging experiences can be some of the most fruitful for people. Whereas I'd say a bad trip is when potentially you're overstretched. served. So I've certainly had people that may have been, say, pretty seasoned ayahuasca

Starting point is 00:30:17 drinkers, but then maybe got a little overconfident and had that extra cup or whatever and just completely overdosed and then have just had a really horrendous time as a result. And not for lack of support, not for lack of trust or a good relationship with their facilitators. Like the setting maybe was totally fine and their set as well. They wasn't their first time around. But then they've just had way too much medicine, right? or in times where somebody is dissociative or has complex trauma and they're ill-prepared and not adequately supported and they are reliving their trauma in sometimes even a worse way than

Starting point is 00:31:23 it actually happened and there isn't the safety or the support there and it just becomes another compounded trauma, then I wouldn't say that's a challenging trip. Because typically with challenging trips, there's still fruit at the end of the integration process. Whereas in bad trips, sometimes there, I do believe that there is just nothing that people can take from it other than perhaps the lesson of, gee, I'm not ready for this or gee next time around. I'm going to have to really know how to vet my facilitators, which is an important lesson.

Starting point is 00:32:00 But I still think that there's a big difference between going through a challenge well supported with your fellowship rather than just reliving hell, having another compounded trauma due to poor, set in setting or being completely overdosed with medicine. Yeah, I think that's really well said. Oftentimes in heightened states of awareness, there's this spiritual component. For some people, we all have different names for that which we believe is greater than us. But there seems to be this spiritual component that sometimes, I think Marseillead talks about the terror before the sacred, or sometimes we feel this overwhelming oneness or this love. What do you have to, when you think about the spiritual component of the heightened states of awareness, what do you think about?

Starting point is 00:32:52 Well, I think that can be really different for the individual depending on their worldview and how they make sense of the world. And many of these things may show up as metaphors. So, you know, you have atheists that felt a connection to God, but then realize that they were God. God is everything, you know. And whereas some people may take that message very literally, you know, that they truly had a communion with God in that experience.

Starting point is 00:33:37 And I think particularly with psilocybin, there is that reliable kind of sense of remembering our connection to something greater than ourselves and that increased sense of connection and losing that illusion of separateness seems to be one of the most therapeutically beneficial aspects of working with psilocybin. And then with vitamin EODMT, which in pretty decent doses can very much reliably produce

Starting point is 00:34:14 that full ego dissolution and becoming a drop back in the infinite ocean and that oceanic boundlessness, that can really inspire states of awe and feeling complete love, the love of the mother, the love of the womb of the earth, or those kinds of things,

Starting point is 00:34:38 and that connection to that embodied sense, or that different between knowing something, knowing I am loved, but really having a complete embodied experience of feeling that to, you know, every cell in your body radiating that, I think that's part of the spiritual experience as well. You know, like there's knowing and then there's knowing. I think that's what psychedelics help with. They help with the embodied knowing, you know.

Starting point is 00:35:19 I do know. I love it. I think it speaks to the idea. You know, another thing that I always bump up against is this ineffability. And we hear it all the time, like, oh, I was in this moment, but I just can't bring it back. And on some level, I think that has a relationship to the knowing. It's this unexplainable moment that both you and I can realize that we both can experience, but there's no words for it. That seems like a spiritual component for me as well. It's just this, you know, you get the goose. bumps and you're like, oh my God, I got all the answers and then it's gone, you know. And that's where the integration is so important. And I'm a big fan of incorporating more sematically orientated practices into integration as well, particularly when there aren't those moments of joy or bliss or awe or love and how do we, enhance the glow of those experiences and maintain a degree of connection to that. And that's going to be through their commitment to integrating that.

Starting point is 00:36:34 Otherwise, it'll be a beautiful experience, but it'll fade away without intentionally working to continue to anchor and savor those experiences. And that does take work, right? And so whether it is connecting to the music or the smells or having some movement-based embodiment practice as part of the integration, I think, that using our five senses and more of our somatic, you know, from sensory motorcyclopathy, we'll call it like core organizers. So movement is one of the ways that we organize ourselves as well and can really help

Starting point is 00:37:31 to embed a feeling or a sense or a newfound. interpretation of something into the body. So even in my clinical practice, if I've done EMDR or something with someone and we've processed a really difficult traumatic memory and they've gotten to a really good resolution, I'll invite them to think about how they're going to really anchor that in through something creative,

Starting point is 00:38:06 through something movement-based, even through things like using their voice, song, those kinds of things where those somatic organizers of our experience can really help to savor and maintain connection to the benefits of what we've experienced in that journey. Otherwise, it will fade away. I'm not sure I've ever heard the idea of using an anchor to connect the long-term results of keeping that practice fresh, if that makes

Starting point is 00:38:49 sense. But that's a beautiful way to do it. For some reason, I think of the bee dancing in front of the other bees, and so they all know where he's going and stuff. You know, if you have a dance or you have something that will anchor you, of course. Yeah, that would be a great way to keep the connections fresh or at least keep that. When music has been playing as well. perhaps there was a really profound part of the journey, and especially in the more clinical model, if you've got a therapist or facilitator that is taking note of where that awe was really experienced,

Starting point is 00:39:28 they can make note of the songs that were playing at that time and provide those to the participant as something to, listen to or help to connect with again to that experience. Music is such a profound connector and how many of us listen to songs, but also smells as well. So if there's a particular smell that has been used in the space to provide that to the participant as well as a way of using sound and our sense of smell, those five senses to connect,

Starting point is 00:40:06 and then also integrating through other things like somatic movement, those kinds of things. That can be a really powerful way to anchor it into the body. Otherwise, it may just become a distant memory. Of course, there are more positive aspects to the process as well as we start to narrative eyes and unpack and understand and do the meaning. making but I think that the somatic component is also essential because otherwise we're somewhat colluding with going back to existing just from the neck up and I think psychedelics are there to get us into our bodies and our felt sense and to create that safety as well so many of us live

Starting point is 00:41:00 from the from the neck up you know we live in a world that prioritises the interleaders and encourages us somewhat to dismiss the knowing of our heart and the knowing of our gut, right? But they are two very important senses of the body as well. And I guess science is kind of starting to validate that through, you know, the gut-brain access, those kinds of things. But again, this is something that indigenous peoples and traditional cultures worldwide have known for millennia and we're just catching up. Yeah, it's it's humbling to realize what we don't know. And I think it's a good thing.

Starting point is 00:41:44 I think it's, you know, on the topic of being able to prescribe psilocybin and MDMA for people who are that have treatment deficient depression, how is that done? Is that done in a clinical setting? Are they allowed to go and seek ceremony somewhere else? Or is what's the setting like for that? No, so as this is very, very new, it is being rolled out very slowly and in a very controlled way. So because we have a lot of pressure here in Australia. If we don't get this right, we could spoil it for everybody.

Starting point is 00:42:25 And so right now it is under really strict conditions and the reality is financially it's going to be completely. inaccessible to most people. But right now, the only people that can prescribe MDMA or psilocybin are psychiatrists that have applied for authorized prescribing status. So that involves them essentially submitting somewhat of a ethics application to a human research ethics committee detailing who will be in the treatment team, what their protocol will be, when it, where it will happen, those kinds of things. But our TGA, our Therapeutic Goods Administration has also said that this would have to be pretty similar to clinical trial protocols and have to happen either in like a

Starting point is 00:43:20 hospital or some kind of community health setting. So the psychiatrist applies if they get granted the authorized prescribing status, they can assemble their team of therapists to undergo psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So it's different to say the Oregon psilocybin model, for example, that is more of the facilitation of the psilocybin, whereas here it is the whole psychedelic assisted psychotherapy model of preparation, dosybin. and integration. And so that's another reason why it is likely to be very inaccessible because at the moment we don't have products available here in Australia.

Starting point is 00:44:14 So products are being imported from overseas. Then you've got the cost of two therapists in the room and the cost of the preparation and integration sessions. So until such time that there's more research and this can go on our Medicare scheme and the cost of the medication can go on our pharmaceutical benefit scheme, most people are going to be looking at about $25,000. Wow. This treatment because that, I mean, there may be some ways to get around that.

Starting point is 00:44:51 So let's say you're seeing a psychologist. We, a psychologist, can build our preparation and integration sessions. under Medicare, it's likely under skill building or those kinds of models. But the dosing session, if you've got to therapists in the room for eight hours at a time, you know, that's going to be quite costly. And then the cost of importing the medicine is going to be absorbed by the participant as well. And so until such time that those things, can be addressed and say confirming that psychologists can bill under Medicare for

Starting point is 00:45:36 prep and integration, those kinds of things. Yeah, it's going to be for wealthy people only at this stage. Wow. I hold hope that when people see how effective it can be, that it will become somewhat more mainstreamed where the cost will come down. I do think that in the right set and ceremony, it can have profound changes that are different than the regular model of addiction. You know, here in the state sometimes, it almost seems like the remedy for addiction is

Starting point is 00:46:15 addiction itself. Like they'll give you this other pill or you can have this other thing that happens. And I think if you think that that is, it seems to me, and I would love to get your opinion, that on some level, psychedelics forces to confront the issue that's bothering us. versus regular modalities to kind of put a patch on it. Do you think that's accurate? Well, maybe I'm a bit biased here as a psychologist, but I think this is something many of us psychologists have known,

Starting point is 00:46:46 is that addiction is a symptom of something. It's not really the condition. You know, one of my first jobs I worked in an addiction and mental health service, and I've never met someone that was addicted just because. Right. There's usually trauma, either, you know, your standard PTSD or some kind of attachment wounding or what we call like a trauma of omission. So when I'm talking to my clients, I'm more interested in the what didn't happen for them, you know, in terms of things like

Starting point is 00:47:24 emotional neglect, you know, not being able to build a secure attachment. with their caregivers, those kinds of things, because they are typically the things that are going to result in needing something to really get that endorphin system going. Or, you know, if you talk to people that use heroin and you get them to explain what heroin feels like, so many of them say it feels like a warm hug from your mother. And I think that's very telling. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:59 Right. And so there's absolutely room for symptom management. Don't get me wrong, but we must simultaneously be addressing the cause of the need for that coping mechanism or whatever coping mechanism is being used in the first place. And I guess a lot of these services are more focused on symptom management rather than treating the root cause. And that is probably because doing long-term therapy is arduous. It's expensive. It's hard. It's not for the faint arted. You know, Marsha Linehan who created dialectical behaviour therapy, which is this one quote in one of her workbooks, and it's one of my

Starting point is 00:48:52 favorites. And it's the path out of hell is through misery. I like that. And I think, you know, that's kind of what it is, the trauma healing journey, right? But you're not doing it on your own anymore. You've got your cheer squad. You've got people walking alongside you, you know, holding the flashlight for you as you're waiting through the mud to try and get to the other side, right? And so, but that's long-term therapy. And I think the benefits of psychedelics is that they are that catalyst that we can probably

Starting point is 00:49:30 expedite the process. It doesn't mean that the psychedelic's going to do everything for you because it's absolutely not. You have to work just as hard for the medicine as the medicine is going to work for you, but you can likely shave off a number of years of treatment, which is going to be far more cost effective in the long term as well. You know, so that's where I see the benefits of psychedelics is that it's not going to be like a pill that you prescribe. It's not going to be like another SSRI. But we may be able to potentially shave off a number of years of therapy by expediting the process somewhat through working with psychedelics. Experience has taught me that people who are very passionate and really care about the

Starting point is 00:50:26 well-being of others or are able to cite incredible psychologists with lots of wisdom, have usually gone through something in their life that pulls them towards there. Was there something that, like, as a young Dr. Bianca, that you encountered that made you want to, like, help heal everybody? You know, and I think that most of us come from some kind of lived, experience or some kind of adversity and at least here in Australia when you do your psychology training it's not really encouraged to talk about that or speak about that because there's that kind of stereotype of the psychologist is going to heal everyone in a misguided attempt to try and

Starting point is 00:51:18 heal themselves yeah and with that in mind I think it is so important and absolutely necessary even more so in psychedelic-assisted therapy because of the transference and counter-transference being so amplified that you have to have done your own work and still be doing your own work really to be able to manage that and navigate that. But I do think that having that lived experience, being able to have an embodied understanding of that

Starting point is 00:51:50 where you have done your own work and where you continue to do your own work is an absolute asset. And as one of my supervisors just says, trauma therapists are the most traumatized population. But I think we see that a lot in psychology. And I say that with some of my supervisors, if you ask them what their favorite presentations are to work with, what's your favorite type of client?

Starting point is 00:52:16 They're often talking about themselves. Right. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, as long as A, you make sure you're aware of that and incorporate some diversity into your clinical caseload, but that you do your own work and continue to do your own work because we're all human. We all have a history.

Starting point is 00:52:40 We all, you know, we're living in very troubling times right now. And, you know, we will come across clients that may trigger something in us as well and having the wisdom to know when that's, is manageable and the wisdom to know when to refer on is so important. And yeah, that is going to be even more important in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. And I think that there is harm that does happen with potentially well-meaning facilitators that either haven't done their own work or have had beneficial experiences with psychedelics

Starting point is 00:53:22 themselves and now they do think they're that panacea that's going to heal everybody and they sell that idea to their psychedelic naive participants and that can be incredibly harmful so it can be an asset to have that lived experience but must be well well on the way in our own journeys before or we think that we can help others. So I guess, yeah, I've had my adversities. I've had my experiences. And I think I've done a pretty good job at integrating that and walking the walk

Starting point is 00:54:06 in terms of my own radical self-responsibility. And of course, things like ongoing, supervision and peer supervision are things that I engage in a lot more than I'm required to. You know, here we, I think we're supposed to do something like 30 hours a year for our professional development. I would do triple that. And for good reason, given the type of clients that I work with. Well, I am thankful that you are doing the work, Dr. Bianca. I really enjoy learning and I really enjoy getting to see the world from the point of view of your eyes. and I'm thankful that you shared what you're doing with the audience.

Starting point is 00:54:53 And I'm thankful to continue to talk to you and see what else comes out of the work over there. And I look forward to that. But before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Well, people can find me at my website, which is consciousinsights.com.com. And for people that are interested in the work of indigenous psychedelic-assisted therapies,

Starting point is 00:55:19 You can check us out on LinkedIn, Instagram and our website, which is www.ipat.com, and have a look at what we are doing in regards to consultation, but a few things that we'll hopefully have up and running in the new year, including some trainings and some possible retreats as well. So, yeah, people are welcome to check us out. and connect with us if they would like to know more. Fantastic. Hang on briefly. I'll talk to you briefly afterwards,

Starting point is 00:55:55 but to everyone listening and watching, thank you so much for your time. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. Go down to the show notes. Check out Dr. Bianca's links. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen, aloha.

TrueLife - Chalice of Consciousness: Dr. Bianca’s Elixir of Psychedelic Insights

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