TrueLife - Christopher Hadnagy - Human Hacking

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Christopher Hadnagy / Human AlgorithmFocus. Listen. Let the room bend.Christopher Hadnagy does not enter — he calibrates.He senses currents, unspoken codes, hidden signals, and draws the truth out without a word.Founder of Social-Engineer, LLC, architect of frameworks, newsletters, and the first social-engineering podcast — he teaches the world to see the invisible lines connecting minds.He does not ask. He elicits.He does not instruct. He guides.He does not push. He illuminates.A conversation begins. Mundane. Then — imperceptibly — it shifts.Eyes open. Secrets surface. Connections spark.Chris is the architect of that invisible choreography.Every gesture. Every pause. Every subtle cue — deliberate.Every human — a network of signals, waiting to be understood.Lecturer at the Pentagon. Teacher at the NSA Center of Academic Excellence. Author of five books, collaborator with Dr. Paul Ekman.Microexpressions become tools. Emotion becomes map. Behavior becomes art.He bends attention. Orchestrates revelation.Leaves the world wiser, more human, every time he moves through it.Tonight, we welcome the master of influence, the conductor of conversation, the invisible architect of trust:Christopher Hadnagy.https://www.social-engineer.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, Christopher Hadnigy, the human algorithm.

I just wait till you see this guy. Wait till you listen to him. First off, though, to everybody out there, focus, listen, let the room bend. Christopher Hadnagee does not enter. He calibrates. He sends his currents, unspoken codes, hidden signals, and draws the truth out without a word. Founder of social engineer LLC. Architect of frameworks, newsletters, and the first social engineering podcast.

He teaches the world to see the invisible lines connecting minds. He does not ask, he elicits. He does not instruct, he guides. He does not push. He illuminates. A conversation begins mundane. Then, imperceptibly, it shifts. Eyes open, secret surface, connections, spark.

Chris is the architect of that invisible choreography, every gesture, every pause, every subtle cue deliberate, every human, a network of signals waiting to be understood. Chris, thank you so much. much for being here today. How are you? You make me sound way cooler than I am. That's all I got to say. Like if you if this podcast doesn't work out, you know, you could be one of those squires that walks in before people and announces them because that's, that's amazing. Yeah. You know, we're just so powerful. And like I love the podcast. I love the introduction because it allows people to, it allows me to get to see

people the way I kind of see them. And like when I check out the book and I see the stuff you're doing. And I want other people listening to that to be like, whoa, I'm. I want them to see the words. I want them to see all the aura out there. So thank you for that. Thank you. So maybe you could, maybe we could just start off. Like you got the new book out, Human Hacking Book,

but maybe you could talk a little bit about how you got to be where you are before the human hacking book. Well, that's a, that's a fun origin story because I wish I could sit here and tell you like I was some sort of genius and had this whole plan. But I'm kind of just like a happy mistake, right? So we're going back early 2000s. I'm working with a company and we're doing something called network pen testing. So we're testing computers, right? We're breaking in and testing computers and writing exploits. And I am terrible at coding.

Oh, just terrible. But I was reading all these books like from Frank Abingale, Kevin Mittnick, Victor Lustwig, all these like big con men and social engineers throughout history. And I said, I wonder if we can utilize some of this during our tests, our audits. So we would ask a CEO like, hey, can I send an email at the time? We didn't even have fishing. It wasn't just, it was an email. Yeah, sure, you could do that.

Can I make some phone calls? Yeah, okay, you can do that. You know, I call, say, I'm Paul from IT. No kidding. 2005, six, all you say is like, I need your password. I'm from IT. They go, okay, here it is. Just hand it over, right?

There was no education. So I had this one CEO. He says to me, okay, you did it. How do I fix it? And I went, got no clue. I was looking at his got no clue. I said, I don't know, I'm just hacking stuff. And he said, he said, son, let me give you an analogy.

If I went to my mechanic and I said, hey, what's this noise? And he said, your brakes. And I went fix it. And he goes, I don't know how. I'd never use that mechanic again. And I'm like, that is a dang good analogy, sir. I'm like, wow, okay. So I came back and you know, you can't see them all, but I had hundreds and hundreds of books here on influence, neuroscience, persuasion, nonverbals, body language.

You name it. I was reading it all, right? and I started writing in the columns of these books and saying, okay, like let's take Chaldeini, like he's got this principle of concession or scarcity. Let's use scarcity. I'm going to write this email and tell them,

like, I need you to do this in the next 12 hours. It has to happen. And now when the boss says, well, why did that fishing email work? And I go, oh,

because I use this principle of influence called scarcity. And now I can tell you how to actually train that person, like to strengthen them. So I'm doing this. My boss at the time, he says, you got to put this online. Like, this is amazing. Right?

And I'm like, no, no, nobody's going to care about this. And he's like, we're putting it online. So I go out by social dash engineer.org, which was available at the time. And I put this framework online 2009. And it blew up. Like, it like went viral. I didn't understand that. I got a call in early 2000, late 2009 from Kevin Mittnick's publisher says, I want you to write a book.

And I'm like, no, I'm not an author. And I kind of hang up. I go back, I tell my boss, like, you've got to hear this thing. This woman wants me to write a book. And he's like, well, when do you start? I'm like, no, I told her no. He's like, you're a moron.

Call her back. Call her back. I wrote the book. 2010, it came out, social engineering, the art of human hacking. And it was the first, to give it some credit,

I tell people don't read it because it's so old and whatever, but to give it some credit, it was the first book that wasn't stories about, like, I did this and went to jail. It was actually

scientifically showing why we get influenced and how these decisions are made. So I can't even believe I'm going to say this number. That book has sold over 110,000 copies. Yes. Like that's ridiculous to me, right? Like I didn't even want to be an author. So I'm getting called from all over the globe, literally.

I mean, I got invited to the Pentagon. I trained MI5, MI6, FBI. Like I was getting called to go train on this everywhere. So I'm like, I'm going to start my own company doing this. I come home, I tell my wife, hey, she had just a year before giving birth to our daughter. And she had worked for her whole life. She said, I don't want to work anymore. I want to stay at home and take care of a daughter.

So it's your job. I'm like, okay, no problem. So I come home and I say, hey, honey, I want to start a company that does only social engineering. What do you think? She goes, okay, well, how many people do it and how much do they make? And I'm like, well, we're the only ones that would be doing it at this time. And so I can't answer the second question. And she's like, okay, let's do it.

Let's try it. So that was 2010. I started social engineer LLC and landed some big contracts and did some massive training. And ever since then, I wish again, I can say I'm proactive because I can't see what the bad guys are doing. But what we do is we wait for the threat actors to create something evil. And then we recreate it here, use it as testing for our clients and then figure out how to help people fix it. man that is an awesome story it's a crazy origin story really because all of this happened by and now and and you know i know other people were involved so i don't want to i'm not taking all the credit

but now there's a whole industry behind this right there's there's a whole industry behind social engineering and there's people who have whole careers around this because of just starting that back then it's kind of like a nuts thing to sit back and think of yeah it totally is you know i've read What was it Kevin's book Ghost in the Wires? Oh, yeah. That book was phenomenal, man. Like that guy was just, he was doing it. Same thing with Chris Voss's book.

Chris Voss got a good book on social engineering. Of course, Caldini. It's amazing. Any of those guys your favorites? Or do you have like some favorites in the space? So before Kevin passed, him and I were really good friends. And I just, I learned a lot from him. He was kind to me starting out as a brand new author,

giving me some quotes from my book and kind of helping me promote it. You know, I really, really enjoyed Kevin. He was a, he was a special kind of guy. I had a chance to interview Chris Voss once,

and he's just as phenomenal as he looks on, you know, on screen. Yeah. He is. He is that good, you know. I had the wonderful privilege of being mentored by Dr. Paul Ekman,

and we co-authored a book together. My second book, him and I were co-authors on it. And I learned so much about life in general. and just being a person from him. It's like that was, you know, if I had to name three, those are like my top three people that I interacted with as mentors in this space. It's so interesting how, like when we think of human hacking,

like we do think of like giants. Like you got your books out there. There's Chris Voss and Kevin and so many interesting people. We see movies like can't catch or try to catch me now. And it seems like we're so enamored by this idea of hacking. but we're doing it every day, right? In every relationship, isn't that sort of influence or that sort of, you know, putting it out

or that behavior sort of influencing going on? It's happening all day long everywhere, right? All day, everywhere. Sometimes people don't know it, so they don't know how to identify it. And that's why a lot of times I can get taken advantage of if you don't know what's happening. But then when you do know it,

my mantra is always use it ethically. Like don't get unethical. Because once you learn these skills, it's it's you know you kind of do feel like a Jedi at times you can you know you can get i mean i've gotten upgrades to first class from coach you know gotten uh upgrades to good cars and stuff but you have to do it ethically and not leave people feeling worse for having met you because if you if you get these skills and you do that then you're it's just going to be easier and easier to be malicious as time goes on yeah and then that can bleed into the idea of like this

giant ego like i'm way smarter than these people they deserve to be manipulated You start to see it as you rise above the corporate rank sometimes. I love that point. I do. When I teach one of my classes, we have a whole section on ego suspension. Oh, okay. Because it's such an important piece of being a good communicator because you can be the best at something. And I've used Chris Voss as an example.

He's probably one of the top negotiators in the world. But he doesn't come in the room and be like, I'm the best. You suck. He'll learn. He'll learn from other people. Yeah. And he's kind, you know. And I remember I also had the honor of interviewing Bob Chaldeenie.

And he's the same way. You know, I mean, this is the guy who literally created the science by an influence. Like, no one was studying this before him. And he doesn't come in and go, you know, I'm the leader of this industry. He just, he's just like a really easy going. I tried to call him Dr. Chaldini. You got to call me Bob. And I'm like, I don't know if I can call you Bob, man.

Like this feels dirty. Like, you know, like, no, I feel like I'm going to get smacked by my dead grandma, you know. So, yeah, I think ego suspension is a hard skill to learn, but you are 100% right. It is necessary because when you learn this, it's so easy to then look at people like targets and not like humans. Yeah, that's a great point out there. I'm so enamored with language, Chris, like all the words we use. And then when you just step back and you start thinking like, I wonder why they use that word. And sometimes I start thinking like, man, is someone's outer dialogue the same as their inner dialogue?

And like, what does that mean? Like, what is your thoughts on all that kind of people's words alone and why they choose them? Like, what are your thoughts on that? I think when people aren't self-aware on how to like use communication skills that your outer dialogue is your inner dialogue. And I can use myself as an example. Okay. I'm a very direct communicator, right? So before I learned, and I've always been like a giant D direct, you know.

And before I learned being self-aware and learned how to utilize these skills, I can say often, I was a jerk. I was a big jerk to people, really, you know, like I would be too blunt. I would say things that in my head were like, well, I shouldn't be able to say this, and just hurt someone's feelings. You know, I remember one time one of my closest friends, his wife got a haircut and I said, wow, your hair looks so much better than I did before. in my head, I thought that was a compliment. I just backhanded her, you know? You know, it's like terrible. So I think your inner is your outer when you don't self-aware.

Now when you're self-aware, you realize that, hey, I'm talking to a person who talks like this or communicates like that. So I'm going to change my method. Or like I have employees and some of them are very quiet and timid. So when I get with them for meetings, I'm not going to have a loud voice and I'm not going to be so direct. I'm going to give them more details around. because discussions we have to have. It's when you learn those skills, you learn, I can use these to be a better communicator.

Yeah. Are you looking like, let's say you walk into a crowd or you meet someone for the first time. Are you looking for subtle cues or signals or perhaps things about their, the way they look in order to understand how to better communicate to them? So I have to say yes to that, but it also depends on the circumstance, right? So in my job, everything, yes.

You're walking into the front building and I'm supposed to be walking right past security and there's three or four security guards. I'm eyeing up, which one I think is bored out of their mind and not going to pay attention to me, right? The one who's on their phone or just like kind of yawning. That's what I'm looking for those kinds of things. But let's say I'm at a business function and I really want to interact with some people that might be good leads or good opportunities. I'm looking for for body language, you know, looking for like where are their hips placed, you know, how are they holding their hands? How are they standing? What's their matter of dress?

Looking for things that might give me an in to start a conversation with a complete stranger. Right. So, yeah, I think once you learn that, too, it's hard to shut that off. You do that all the time, everywhere. Yeah. It's interesting to think about it. Do you ever use it on the backside? Like, if you don't want to talk to somebody, you start doing the yawning or like you start

pointing your feet a different direction or? I love that question because I had this thing where I should press. practice these skills when I get on a plane because I have a captive audience. So I remember once I started elicitating listening with this woman sitting next to me. And I did not make a plan for this because it was a four hour flight. And she didn't stop talking the whole time. Right. And I heard from her childhood to the moment she met me, I knew everything about her.

And she was just poured it all out. I mean, I knew about her breakups, her divorce, her kids, everything, you know. So now if I'm getting on a plane and I'm like I really just need to sleep I do that I put my headphones in yeah right before anyone sits next to me and I kind of just do this you know like yeah I'm tired like getting that that out there like I'm not here for a conversation kind of mode right yeah so I do do that but it's also interesting because we have mirror neurons in our brain right and we we mimic each other So our hips indicate our interest.

So if I'm in a conversation with you and, you know, you even do this now, like when we're here, we're facing the screen, we're facing that. I mean, if I was having a conversation like this, it would be really awkward for everyone watching. Because it's like, who you're talking to, man, right? You know? So when you're in a conversation, if you need to exit, you know, that's a great, that's kind of a great way. You kind of move your hips a little bit away from the person you're talking to. And their brain will start to understand, oh, that's time to wrap this up. Right. So you can use these subtle cues also to kind of end the conversation if you want to, unless you're on a plane, then you're stuck.

Yeah. It almost sounds like offense and defense to me. Is that too simplistic of a way for it to be? No, I don't think that's too simplistic. I mean, it's a great analogy of a way of thinking of it, you know, because it is. I mean, so let's let's take this from the, from the manipulator side. Threat actors, people who want to hack you will say like, here's a big one on the phone for your grandma, your grandpa. call your mom, your dad. Yeah. They call up and they say, Hey,

grandma, this is Chris. I was at a bachelor, bachelor party with a bunch of guys. We went over the border of the Mexico. I got mugged. I got into a fight. I have no money.

I'm in jail. You know, can you wire $5,000 down to this place so I can, I can get out of here. And grandma wants to help. Yeah. She's like, it doesn't really sound a lot like Chris.

You know, I'm still drunk, grandma. I'm so sorry, you know. So grandma does it. Wires the money to the address she's given and does it right. on PayPal, that money's gone.

Well, what did they do? They used fear, right? They used fear to get her to stop thinking critically. So when we know that this is the way a threat actor is going to work, you can come up with stopgaps. So like what I did with my grandma when she was around is we had a code word. And I say, grandma, I'm the only one who's ever going to say this code word to you. So if I call you one day and I say, I need money, I'm in a bad place, you say, Chris,

what's the code word? And if I don't say it to you, you hang that phone up. If I tell you, I'm too drunk to remember, you say, call me back when you're sober, right? And you hang up. And that kept her safe from those type of attacks because we had a system that even though she might be scared, I don't want Chris to be in jail. I don't want him to be hurt. We had a system that now she can stay safe. So when you know the ways that they're being used, it is an offense because then you set up things to not be.

You can even do it to yourself say, well, I'm in this conversation with this person. And I'm feeling really afraid. Like I'm feeling a lot of, that could be an indicator with why am I afraid? Yeah. Like is the IRS really going to send police to my house? Like does that even make sense? It stops you, allows you to critically think for a second when you question yourself and that can stop you from being a victim. Yeah, that is a great. That's great. Thanks for sharing that right there. You're welcome. You know, it seems interesting to me because there are so many scams out there, whether it's an email fishing scam or a phone call or a Nigerian prince wanting to give you all kinds of money. But you know, you know what, Chris, I see it more in the people where. supposed to trust when I start looking at ads on TV or even like words in music like sometimes I just get bummed out because I'm like look at the architects who seem to be wanting to sell us stuff based on fear based on loneliness is there how do we combat that and what is your thoughts

about sort of our society using it like that well I think it's it's what you said before it's the it's the offense defense if you're aware of it and you know it you know like you can we can all remember this the screen comes on and there's a starving dog and there's sad music, right? And the arms of an angel, there it is, and this dog's just looking at you and it's got its ribs showing. And then the music cresends

and there's a healthy dog because you gave a dollar a day. Yeah, they're using these things. So you have to say to yourself, if we know that marketing is doing this, we know that. And like nowadays, well, with social media, what we call it FUD,

fear, uncertainty, and doubt, right? FUD is used everywhere by everybody. And it's terrible because when it gets you in your mind, like maybe I do need that thing because I don't feel very safe or protected. Like I need that, right? You know, and that, and then I don't know how many,

I'm sure everyone listening, maybe, hopefully it's not just me. You've done this late night scrolling. And you're like, I think I need that by now. And then you get it and you're like, why did I even order this? Like what? Like what was my purpose?

What was I thinking when I clicked buy on this thing, right? But yeah, I think it is. It's being used more and more. So it comes back to what you said, offense, defense. We need to be very aware that these skills are being used, be aware of those skills and then defend against them. Yeah, I love that.

I got my friend Polar Knights chiming in all the way from Scandinavia. He says, True Life have hacked me in my mind. I love the show. Polar Knights, thanks for being here, man. Thanks for chiming in all the way over there, man. I'm super still. Let me know if you got some questions for Chris. Put them in the chat over there.

It's like eight hours ahead right there. So you're awesome. We are. What's he said? I can't help myself. I see cheap socks. I will order it. It's true.

I know. I know. This is what I'm saying. And those ads, they're, they get you. You know? Yeah.

I got another one coming in from my friend, Desiree. Desiree, I love you. Thank you for being here. She says, in your experience, Chris,

what is the single micro expression or behavioral signal most people consistently misread? And what does it reveal about human nature? Well, that's a great question, Desiree. So let's talk about facial expressions first. The one that is most often misread is contempt.

And contempt is defined scientifically as the feeling of moral superiority. And the way it's displayed is one side of the face, and I'm doing this extreme because this is not usually the way it is, goes up. So a lot of times you'll just see it like that. Right. And people often misconstrue it for a smirk. You know, so they they don't read it right. But if you think about this with the definition of contempt, Dr. Ekman and a bunch of others did a great study a few year,

way years back that in a marriage, in a relationship with your partner, you can feel all base emotions. You can feel anger, surprise, disgust, happiness, fear. You can feel them all and still be married and happy. But if you feel contempt, then marriage can't last, right?

If I feel I'm morally superior to my wife, then she is, then she's not equal to me. How can we stay happily married? Right. So that one a lot of times ruins relationships if it's misread because that's people get into abusive situations and things like that. Now from a body language standpoint, that's an interesting one because there's this this is part of our neck right here called the super sternal notch. It's where our collarbone meets.

and when people feel like a big surprise or fear, everyone thinks they're going to go, but people go like this and they, it's where that phrase, clutch my pearls comes from, right? They go here. And if you watch any CCTV footage,

like where a mom is with her child in the mall and she looks down on the child's gone, they do this right away. So a lot of times people don't know what that means, so they don't understand what's being displayed when they see it. And I tell this to the guy, out there. If you're walking in a bar and you see this girl you really want to interact with and you start walking up to her chair and she does this, she is telling you that she does not

find you open. She's finding you a little bit scary. So maybe your approach or whatever it is, you need to redo something because you're not going to win that one. Right. So you can look for those cues and know that it's a good time to say like, what, okay, what am I doing? Is it my face? Is it my walk? Is it my beard? Maybe she doesn't like that. Am I coming on too strong? Like, what is it like there's something that's happening that I'm not making her feel comfortable yeah that's an awesome one you know where I see it too is like intercultural conversations like my family my wife and her family are lay ocean and it's so interesting to see like I'm this white guy come out guns blazing and they hiding their knives you know and there's all these different intricacies about like when you laugh

and when you don't laugh you know there's one in particular I want to share with you and everybody it's when an accident happens like in our family like if there were to be there was an accidental fender bender and my dad would get out and start laughing like oh but he was trying to show respect and like are you okay but he had a smile on his face and he was joking about it but the guy that they ran into was like why are you laughing you think this is funny and it's like whoa total miscommunication right there leading to almost like this violent interruption you got to get in there and break that up but what do you what is your thoughts on the whole cultural dynamic of communication and reading signs? It's very important because body language oftentimes is not always universal. So my wife, like your wife, she's from Thailand. So the first time I met my wife's family, I'm Italian. I'm American Italian, right? I'm doing the whole hand on the shoulder. And from here up is for God.

I did not know that. No one told me that don't touch their shoulders until you're intimately acquainted with them. So I'm doing all sorts of touching as an Italian does. And I'm offending the whole family. Right. So I think it's important to understand, you know, I have a Japanese employee. And if I were to say, come here, that in Japan is fight me. This has come here. If you see a mom with her children, she'll do this, right? So it's like, you have to understand. I have a really funny story on. Yeah, let's hear it, man. First time I went to India for business.

The company I went for, they signed me a host. He was to show me around. So we get there. we're going to these shops and, you know, a couple hours passed. And the man says, are you hungry? And I said, well, are you hungry? And he did that. And I thought, no, okay, he's not hungry. So I went, okay, well, we can wait. So another hour passes.

And he's like, sir, are you hungry? And I went, are you hungry? And I went, okay, he's not hungry. So another hour passes. And I'm like, hey, man, I am starving. Can we eat? And he's like, I've been waiting for you. And I said, but you kept saying no.

He said, no, I've been saying yes. This is yes in India. India shake their hair. side to side to say yes, this is no. And I'm like, what they're so close? And he's like, I'm so sorry. You know, I'm like, no, don't be sorry. It's me being stupid. I didn't know your culture. I should have learned something, right? So miscommunication and three hours of not eating, you know, late because I didn't understand that his head nod was yes and not no. So if you're going to travel or interact with people from a different culture, I think it's amazing to find out some of their

nonverbal cues before you have that interaction and it will make your conversation so much better. Yeah. But why is it then that it seems like so many, and maybe this is just propaganda from my part, but why is it that it seems like there's so many foreign actors that are good at manipulating Americans? Well, so believe it or not, a lot of foreign actors that we find are have explicit training in doing these things. There's actually modules and books on how to be a con person for them. But also, they know that to use the emotion. So they know fear is a big one. They know lust and greed is a big one, like romance scams, right?

Yeah. They attack lonely people who have just lost their mates that are looking for a connection, right? The grandparents can whenever. They attack fear because I don't want kid to be in trouble. Kidnapping scam. Fear. My daughter is kidnapped, right? the attackers are using fear-based.

And then when they're attacking companies, they're using authority. I'm coming from the CEO. You have to do this. You're going to be fired. And they're using methodologies that are completely unethical, but they work because when our emotion is triggered, we have these two little pieces of gray matter in our brain called the amygdala.

And the amygdala, because there's two of them. When the amygdalae are triggered, what they start to do is they take something from external, a sight, smell, hearing, whatever it is, and they start to trigger psychological and physiological changes before your brain has a chance to catch up.

And if it stays triggered, your frontal cortex actually doesn't work. It's a slower processor at that point. I'll give you an example of this so they can you picture it. Let's say you're definitely afraid of snakes. You walk out into your yard, your garden, and you see this long black thing under the corner of your eye.

What do you do? You do this. Now, why does this happen? It's a physiological response. Let's think about it. You take a gas in so your blood's now oxygenated. Your eyes open wide. So you're taking in the whole scene. And when you clench your muscles, adrenaline gets released into your blood. And why is this happening?

Because that's the first F is freeze. But now you have fight or flight response. So your amygdalae have prepared your body for one of those two responses. But now you look over and it's not a snake. It's a garden hose. And you're like, ah, silly. And you go back, but let's say it was a snake. Now your body's been prepared to defend or to get the heck out of there.

So attackers might not understand the neuroscience, but they understand that if I can get you to that right now, there's nothing happened to frontal here. So the next decision you make is going to be purely on emotion. And we all know, none of us make great decisions when it's based only on emotion. Ask any 16 year old boy. I'm sure we all got stories. We don't make any good decisions on emotion only. You know. Yeah.

It's an interesting one though, too, because sometimes while, you know, when you look, especially if you're going to, like I have made horrible financial decisions based on emotion and paid for the price for it, you know. Yep. But it seems like there's all this literature out there that says follow your heart and so much of the language, you have language of the heart and, you know, get to know someone and stand close and feel the frequency about it. What is there sort of a dichotomy there or like what's going on there?

There is. You know, when my son. was graduating from high school. He said to me, Dad, what should I do? Like, should I get into IT? What should I do? And I said, you want to know something?

Colin, I said, there are few trades in the world that can't be outsourced to other countries. So if you want to be valuable for the, forever, become a plumber, become an HVAC, become a carpenter, right? Those jobs.

So he went and he applied to this college, which was a really an amazing program. The college uses the tuition money. they buy a plot of land. And for two and a half years, the students build a house from the foundation up. I mean, everything, the plumbing, the electrical, everything.

And then the school sells the house and they use that money for the next class. And he left that with a degree understanding how to do every trade craft. He had a great job in HVAC for years. Great job. Now he's pivoted as he got a little older. He does something with autistic kids now.

But when in college, they'll say, you know, follow your dreams, follow your heart. Well, at that age, what are your dreams? You want to be an artist? Okay, great. How many artists actually make a living being an artist? You know, I have a good friend who's a lead singer of a rock band, and he said, they just got lucky because there are so many bands that will never make it to where you can actually have a living being in a band, right? So I would have loved to been a drummer in a band, but, you know, didn't follow, I didn't follow my dreams. So I think, I think what I try to tell people is, look, you want to be passionate about the thing you choose to do.

So that is hard. You want to be passionate about it. But you want to make an informed decision, right? So when you're choosing a career, a mate, a place to live, you want to make an informed decision. Like I might say, well, you know what? Utah's beautiful. That state here in the U.S.

Utah's a beautiful. But for what I do for a living, that would be the worst place to go live. Airports are a million miles away. There's no big businesses. Like, I need to be where I'm at, central to a very good airport. I can fly easily, right? And you make that decision and then you say, okay, let me choose a city that I actually wouldn't want to live in.

And that's, yeah, you make your decisions based on emotion, but also logic. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing. What is the name of that school? Is it okay to share the name of that school? That sounds amazing. I can't even remember because my son is now 31, so I can't even remember. I got to look it up and email you.

Yeah, that would be so awesome. What a great opportunity. That brings me to another issue, too, is like, if we think about right now, what are your thoughts on school like on when I look at some of the bigger schools like I I fear for my daughter that it seems just like it seems as if that Prussian model of school where you have an authority figure tell you all these things that you need to memorize but somehow that doesn't seem to be working in our society obviously you get what you pay for if you take classes that are like underwater basket weaving you

might not make it yeah you go to a top engineering school you're probably gonna crush it but like what do you think we can move some of the things you're talking about, about behavior and understanding connection and passion to self and how your brain actually works. Could that be rolled into some of these schools for a better education for our kids? It needs to be. So I'll give you a great example. I work with a school in Alabama. That's a STEM school. Is it Alabama? Yeah, Alabama. And this school, this is a high school. So it's a four-year high school, but they created programs around, forget about, yeah, everyone does their math and their English, but they have a robotics course. Okay. They have.

a electronics course. They have a welding course. They have things that when these kids graduate from high school, they're going to have actionable skills for the job market. And they called me to ask help them write a whole course on social engineering. So we wrote a nine-week social engineering course that these kids get active education and using what we're talking about today, how to elicit, how to ask the right questions, how to critically think, how to re-body.

language. They're getting that. And the effect that I see on, I've been, you know, with them now three or so years, the effect that I see on these kids when they're graduating is on night and day from a normal high school. These kids know what they want to do with their life. They're respectful. They're mature. I don't hear. There's no reports of sexual violence or gun violence in that school. The school has been designed where every classroom is complete see-through glass. It puts the onus on the teachers and the student. to be responsible for acting right because you can't hide behind a door. It is what I wish every, I wish I had a school like that when I was a kid. It was, it's an amazing experience watching what these kids do. And some kids say,

you know what, I don't need to go to college. I got my skills and I don't know if we get a job. And some kids say, oh, I know what I want to do with the rest of my life now because of the things I learned here, right?

And they, they have a path because right now, if you think about it, I don't know about you when you went to school, they didn't teach me how to balance a checkbook. Nope. They didn't teach me how to make a budget. They didn't teach me how to grocery shop. The things I needed did not involve geometry or trigonometry. I needed to know how to live as an adult, right? I didn't learn any of that stuff. So this kind of a school is teaching those kids all those things. There's a whole class in banking. How to how to balance a checkbook, how to make a budget. I mean, this school's like unbelievable.

Yeah, that sounds amazing to me. You know, it brings up the idea of the difference. between what questions versus how questions. It seems like how do you do this is a much more powerful question than what do you do? How do you do? Yeah. So when I teach on this, I always say, like, if you want to have a great conversation, use how questions. Yeah. Right?

Like, you know, I say, hey, I need your advice. You know, George, how would you handle this situation? Right. Now, I'm not asking you to tell me what to do. I'm asking you how you would handle a situation. And then I give you the situation. and now I'm going to get your opinion on it. Now, I didn't ask for you what to do.

I just asked how you would do it. So now if I don't follow your advice, I'm not insulting you. Right? Totally. So it's a great way of doing that as opposed to being like, what do you think I should do here? And then you say, hey, do this. And I go, I don't agree. Why'd you ask me?

Right. You know, so I agree with you, how questions are much more powerful. Yeah, I think so too. It's, you know what, that brings up this idea of like the subject-object relationship. It seems whether in schools or conversations or especially in the workplace, there's like this subject object and you are the object or you are the subject and it takes away all of sort of the real creativity out of those conversations. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah. So I was talking to another person just a few hours ago about like the effect that

COVID and having to be forced to separated has had on us. Right. Yeah. And now you blend that with the new brand of social media, right? We have lost our attention spans. You know, at the point like if you can't show me how to cook this three course meal in 60 seconds, I'm done with you. Right? I don't have time. Right. So you better be able to do this. So our attention spans have been shorter.

When we were forced to alienate and not interact face to face anymore, people then got comfortable with that. And they got comfortable using their 147 characters on Twitter to say whatever the heck they wanted, no matter how awful it was. And now all of a sudden, the world opens back up. And people like, wait, wait, I don't know how to do this anymore. So they bring their online presence to the real. world and it's just like I've never been I remember being a kid and my dad would have a neighbor

over who didn't agree with him on any political view yeah and they'd sit around have a whiskey and talk and then the guy would leave and my dad'd be like that guy's a dummy and he'd invite him over next week yeah totally same thing nowadays if you and I disagree I have to kill you or I have to call you all sorts of names or I have to hate you yeah it's like why has disagreement become such a vile tile thing. It's a crazy situation. I think this world is in right now. If I don't agree with your lifestyle,

your sexuality, your politics, I'm a racist. What? And then we have to hate each other. But why? Why do we have to hate each other? It's because we can't agree. I have friends that are completely opposite of me.

Right? And that's the way it should be. But we've somehow lost that ability in this new world that we're in right now. Yeah. You know, I see it too, especially when you look at what's recently happening all over the world. You see these just incredible divisive nature that's happening. It seems to me that that's the very thing that's supposed to save us. And on my more positive days, Chris, I see this as a giant opportunity. And almost a lot of people I talk to, I'm beginning to see this evolution of awareness, this idea that we're more than the words out there. That there's when you sit down with somebody, you can be vehemently, you can be radically, like, pulls apart, but if you just sit down with another individual and start talking to them, you're going to actually see how close you are to that person. Yes, you maybe pulls apart over here, but how's your family? Oh, you've got a problem with your cousin too? Imagine that. Oh, you got that? Oh, imagine that. Like, we need that more than ever right now. How do we get there?

I think, so I really like that question because I think there is an answer, but it is like, I can only control my little circle of my universe here. Yeah. So if I, if I help, my wife and my kids to become that kind of a person. Yes. And then they grow up and they get families and they help their families to become that kind of people. Yeah. And if I can get my friend group to become that kind of person, now we're going to, it's like a,

what do they call that? The marketing? Multi-level marketing? Yeah, multi-level marketing. It's like multi-level marketing, but for good, right? If we can spread this to our family and friend groups, eventually, I'm not going to say I'm going to change the world, but at least my corner of the world. world will be people that are like that.

And that will make my life richer, right? I mean, I remember sitting in front of someone, this was years ago when, when terrorism really took off. And this person was a Muslim. And I said, I don't know anything about your religion. Can you just tell me? I don't understand that. Just explain it to me.

All I hear is what's on the news. And it sounds horrible. And when they walk me through it, I'm like, so it's really not that much different than Christianity. It's the extreme. Like, you have Christians in this country and then you have the KKK. So terrorists are. just extreme Muslims.

Not every Muslim thinks you beat your wife or blow things up, right? So it's like this is, it's a great lesson. If you're confused about something, go to a source. Don't, don't go to Google, find someone who is that and say, I'm, I'd like to learn.

I remember one sitting with someone, I didn't know anything about people who are non-binary. And then I have a nonprofit I run. I had someone volunteer who identified a non-binary. So I was sitting with them when Danis explained it to me. I don't understand it. So I'm asking because I really want to know. Even if I don't agree, I want to know.

So we had this great conversation. They explained everything to me so I can understand the reasoning behind it and how this came about and how they feel. And it was great. Now I understand it. And again, it doesn't mean I have to go away and agree. I didn't convert to being a Muslim, you know, after talking to that guy. But now I understand it. So it's a matter of if I can get my friends, my family, my, my, my,

group around me to be that willing to be educated to be to ask questions to to be wrong even right to to be completely wrong like to sit there and say wow okay so if you listen to the news you think every Muslim person is just a horrible human being and that's not the case you know and now you can say I was wrong you could spread that man if my whole group of people that I'm around can be like that that's going to enrich my life yeah I heard a great quote Yeah. To answer your question, just sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. With answer your question, I think if we all can do that with our group, like, yeah, I can go out and try to say, I'm going to change the world with a movement, but, you know, there's so many movements, right? Let me change me and let me change my group and then that can expand. I love it. I think that's beautiful advice. Like we, it happens from the bottom up. We're so used to this top down system. But in reality, it's always been the become the best version of yourself and watch the world change. Watch it change. and people that are not like you will not want to be around you right because they're going to

make them feel bad or they're going to want to change right i remember so like this is going back five four years i'm going to tell you something i wait 350 pounds whoa i weighed 350 pounds and i at the height of covid i was lethargic i wasn't doing anything for my health and i'm I was in my 40s and I'm going to be dead before I'm 50. Wow. This is awful, right? Yeah. And I woke up one day and I have a beehive that I take care of and I got some flowers

for my bees and I'm out there digging and I'm out of breath and I'm like, I'm going to die. Planting a flower. Like I said, I got to change. I have to do something. I hired a trainer and my trainer over the internet looked at me and said, okay, man, well, you're really unhealthy. So we're going to start with something small. You're going to make you're going to do it.

You're going to 10,000 steps a day. I want you to do that every day, seven days a week, for two weeks and then get back with me. Okay, so I did that. And I could not tell you, without changing anything in my diet or anything, I was shedding weight like it was unbelievable, drinking water and walking, right? And then I come back and I'm like, look, I got a kettlebell, I got a bench, you know, I don't have really any equipment. I got a couple dumbbells. He made a 20-minute program for me, and I'll jump to the end. It's been four years now.

I weigh 220, so I lost 130 pounds, right? And I made a change because I had to realize like that, that was bad. Like I'm going to die, right? So, but like you said, it had to come from within. Yeah. I had a friend who went on a health journey and he came to me one day and says, Chris, you're, you're really scaring me. You're not healthy. And I went, I'm just big boned.

He could have said that to me in my face all day long. I didn't listen. It had to come from here, right? And until you say, you look in the mirror and you go, I don't like what I see inside or outside, whatever, then you can't ever change. No one's going to do it for you. I didn't change. I didn't lose weight for my daughter.

I didn't lose weight for my wife because if I did, I would have done it years ago. I lost weight because I was sick of who I was. So that change has to come from internal or not. And yeah, you can have people help you. I had a trainer. My wife cheered me on. My kids cheered me on. I had a group of people I hung out with that like to work out.

So yeah, I had help. I wasn't like singular. But it couldn't be because of that. It had to be because of something inside of me. At the time when you weighed that much, did you catch yourself, like, betraying your own writings? Like, it seems like you have this incredible ways of human hacking and understanding things. Did you recognize in yourself? Like, wait, I'm using these techniques on myself.

That's a great question, George. That's a really thought-provoking question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. That is awesome. You know what? Yeah, 100%, I can say, because there was no way. for me to, if I would be honest. Right.

Right. I'm going to take a shower. You're looking in the mirror. There's no way for me to go. It's all big bone. Bones aren't that big, okay? Bones don't wait for 150 pounds, right? Right.

So by telling myself that, I gave myself an excuse. The other excuse I used, I was too busy. I'm traveling all the time. I got a business. I got employees. I don't have time to work out. Yeah. I would tell myself this and then be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I didn't have time. I did travel a lot. and I just told myself it was okay to be like that. You know, I'm just being me. So I was. I was hacking myself with the bad. But then when the realization came, now it was like,

I have to look at the mirror and say, you've got to look at yourself and go, Chris, no, you're not, you're not healthy. Like, this is good.

Like, I honestly said to my wife, I don't know how you ever even slept with me. Like that, I was disgusting. You know, like, that was terrible.

Like, I apologize to her. I'm like, I am so sorry. Like, I feel bad for, like, putting you through that for so many years.

You know, it's like, and we used to be workout partners, her and I. And then when she got pregnant with my daughter, the doctor said, I really need you to stop working out so much because we don't want to hurt the baby. So I said, okay, I'll pause with you for three or four months and I'll get back to it. Well, when I started working out again, my daughter was 17. So that went 17 years of progression, right? And I had to, I had to, and that's the other thing. I tried every fad diet.

I tried every pill. If a pill came out, said, you can lose weight. I bought it, you know. I tried everything. I juicing, whatever it was, never worked. Never worked. Because as soon as you stop, you go back, it literally was, and I don't diet now. I don't.

My trainer has me focus on protein first. If I can eat 160 grams of protein in a day, anything else I want to eat, who cares? Yeah. He says drink, drink at least like three of these and water a day, at least a minimum. Yeah. Don't skip a workout. And now I walk 8,000 steps a day. And as long as that, it doesn't care if I drink beer,

doesn't care if I drink whiskey. He doesn't care about anything. And I'm keeping it off because of the change. But again, the change had to happen internally. And I had to be willing. I think your question is so thought-provoking. I had to be willing to look in the mirror and be like, you're lying to yourself, bro.

Like you are lying to yourself and that's got to change now. Yeah. Thank you for it. Thanks for sharing. I know that's kind of a, I don't want to go too deep. But I was like, I want to think about this. No. I love it. No one's ever asked me. And you had to be honest with it. Right. Got you. I mean, I think when

people are listening to this and I had some friends that went on health journeys afterwards because they saw what happened. And they asked me, what did you do? And I'm like, well, first, get your hormones tested, find a trainer. But I said before any of that, you have to internally look at yourself and say, am I willing to stick to it and make this change? And if you're even go, not sure, it's not the time because you have to be there. Because what's going to happen is you're going to make some progress. And then you're going to fall right back into your old habits. But, you know, I tell everyone the story and I'm, and I'm very honest about it because, I mean,

people will see pictures of me back. And I met someone that I hadn't seen for like two years. And they didn't even know who I was, right? They had no clue who I was. They were like, wait, you're Chris Hadnagie? And I'm like, yeah, man, don't you remember? And they're like, no, the last time I saw you had no beard and you were huge. You know, I literally looked older five years ago than I do now.

right that nice comment from your from your fan in the chat where he said my son is 31 not 41 but thank you for that that that wonderful compliment i'm 52 so i appreciate that that that goes to the hard work because i i worked hard to get here right and i'm and i don't ever want to go back to that old guy so yeah i think that yeah so i don't mind the questions yeah i don't mind going on deep on that because i think it's a it's a powerful lesson i got to keep reminding myself because i did for well i wasn't always I mean, it took quite a few years to get there, but probably for 10 to 15 years, I lied to myself about my health. And just thank God, I didn't end up in a hospital. I remember once I was walking through an airport and I was late and I had to walk really fast. And there's no way I can run. And when I got to the plane, my shin felt like it was going to pop off my leg and just flap around like a fish. Like it was throbbing. It hurts so bad.

So I get back from my trip and I go to a doctor and I'm like, what is this pain? and they're like, oh, well, you have shin splints. And I'm like, how do I get rid of it? They're like, lose weight. But there has to be another way. Like, what do you mean? Like, and they're like, what else can I do? You know, like when you're walking so fast because you were, you had to, you're putting all the strain in that muscle and it got tight.

And it didn't loosen. So I went online looking for every shin splint remedy, got braces, eating bananas because potassium was supposed to help. You know what? Fixed it? Losing weight. I know, now I ran my first 5K. Yeah. I didn't get one shin splint.

Not one. Right? So I'm like that, that, that was. the answer. It has got to be willing to hear it and take action. Yeah, I love that. It brings up another deeper question for me. Like, I'm so, I spend a lot of time talking to people like an addiction or PTSD or different therapists. I'm so fortunate to get to talk to so many cool people on my podcast. And when I, when I think about like therapy, a lot of people go in and they'll see a psychologist or something like that. But I can't really see. I think human health,

hacking and knowledge of self is sort of therapy on some level. Do you think that psychologists are, they're doing the human hacking as well? Well, if we think about, sadly, this got designed, but if we think about the origins of what Bandler and Grindler started back in the, in the 60s, right? So they said, okay, guys, psychologists, they're all shrinks. They're all using LSD.

And it's really not helping, right? It's not really working great. So they said, we had this fascinating idea. Why don't we talk to our patients? And why don't we match their tempo, match their volume, match their speed? And they saw a massive change in it, right?

Now, of course, later on, a bunch of, you know, people took their great teachings and turned it into street magic and made it lose all of its scientific validity.

But if we just look at that, learning how to communicate properly is a lot like therapy. Now, I would never say, don't see a therapist because I've been seeing mine forever and I love her. And,

you know, I think that's really good you if you need that. But when me learning these skills helped me to realize that that super direct kind of jerk of a guy needed to change. Yeah. And the older I get and the more experience I get in life, the more I realize how this helped me, this can help me become a better leader, a better father, a better husband, just a better person. By learning how to use these skills, it enhances everything in my life. Yeah. I had this four-day class I teach called a foundational application of social engineering.

And that's the class I got to teach to MI5, MI6, SOCOM, FBI, U.S. Secret Service. I got to teach this class all over the place and to corporations too. And when I first started it, I always geared it towards security people, you know, military or security people. And then one day I had a public class and I, you know, when this first day I was asked the students, why are you here? And six of the students were from one. automotive place as salespeople.

And I'm like, why are you here as a salesperson? Like, well, our IT guy took a course and he brought the book back. And we were looking through the book and we were like, this is what we need to increase our sales. Yeah. So they took the class and they called me back. They were like, this changed our whole process in our life. So I'm like, I changed the name of the course.

I took away some of the security stuff. And no kidding, six months ago or a year ago when I taught this class, there was a guy in there and I said, you know, I asked him, hey, why are you here? He's like, because I need to be a better husband and a father. And that's what I'm taking this class is to learn how to do that. And I'm like, what? Like, what? Like, mind blowing.

And I've had people take this class for all sorts of reasons and a lot of them not dealing with security. Just about communication, learning how to communicate better, learning how that kind of communication and understanding your self-awareness could literally open up doors for you that could change your life. Really. Yeah. It sounds all wooy. but, you know, I mean it. Like it's, it's, for me, like, it's opened up doors for me.

Like I said, I've got to go speak at the Pentagon. You know, I've got to meet, I had the privilege of meeting Will Smith once because he came to hear a speech I was giving with Apollo Robbins because he was going to be in that movie focus and he wanted to use some of the skills I have and I got the chance to actually like train him a little. Like that's like, what the heck? Like, what? Like, what?

I started the nonprofit with the least. with the lead singer of my favorite band since I was 17 years old, right? Like, what? You know, clutch is my all-time favorite band. And Neil Fallon and I have become friends and he helped me start my nonprofit eight years ago.

Like that, you know, and I'm not saying you'll have the same experiences, but you probably can attest that you get these amazing people on your show. You have these conversations. And then you stay in touch. Yeah. Right.

And now you have a rolodex of people. You can reach out to some of these amazing psychologists and researchers and be like, hey, I want to have a conversation. Normal people can't just do that, right? They can't just call up Robert Chaldeenie and say, hey, you want to come on to a podcast, right? So when you have that, it does change your life. And maybe your goal isn't this, but learning those skills can still open up doors for you

with other opportunities, like learning how to ask for a raise, right? That's so important because people do it wrong all the time, learning how to use these skills and dating someone, you know, and not manipulating, right? So there's so many areas of life that this this can better you and make you just a better person. Do you think that there's room to get into trouble like when you become really good at it and say you're running like Hillary's campaign or you're running Obama's campaign or you're running Trump's campaign or you're doing some you're a firm, you're a PR firm that somebody hires to dismantle something that people wanted to. Is there and I don't know. I'm not the morality police. You know, there was I talked to some whistleblowers a while about. and they were telling me about this firm that was hired. And the more they told me about it, the firm was hired explicitly to make this thing go through. But the more they told me and I'm like,

gosh, those people are so brilliant. They fully tanked it. And they did it going through the positive side of it. Like it seems like there's sort of a dark arts where when you're, maybe it's what we talked about earlier. And I'm like I said, I'm not the morality police, but on some level, this idea of the greater good or being hired out to run this sort of social engineering you're in campaign on people. That seems like a slippery slope to me. What are your thoughts on that? Very slippery.

I mean, let's think about it. Okay. Let's use one example. Like the Me Too movement had to happen, right? Women were being misused and misapplied their power, the power of the men over them were being misapplied for years. But now look at what it's turned into. It's weaponized, right?

All a woman has to say is he touched me, right? And he did something and people's lives are ruined. Yeah. And how many times has this happened with no proof that someone's life is ruined the later on find out it was made up. So when you weaponize something powerful, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a danger slope to get on. And I would, I would, I would warn people to never get into that. Like, I look at pickup artists. Yeah.

Pickup artists are a sleazy version of what I do because they teach something called nagging, right? So they say, if you're interested in this girl, let's say I'm here at a bar and his girl's really attractive and I want to get to know her, but I notice that every time she laughs, she covers her mouth, like, so maybe I think she might be embarrassed. of her teeth. So a neg would be, hey, you know, you're, you really got big teeth. You're kind of cute like a rabbit. Now, I call out something insecure of her. And if she is an insecure girl, a woman, she will fight for my attention now. How awful is that? Yeah. Can you imagine waking up the next day and finding out that's how you got with this person? You were manipulated into it,

how dirty and used you would feel. But this is taught all over the country. Classes for this everywhere. So it's like, that's a slippery slope. You start to treat people like objects as opposed to a fellow person that deserves respect and dignity. So, yeah, I'm with you. We're using this to this manel companies for corporate espionage for, I did some training for the Brazilian army. And when we were down there, we identified. I said, look, guys, you have a major, major problem. All of your officers have girlfriends in other cities.

and everyone knows it. So when they travel, they have a girlfriend that they go. If I'm an opposing nation, I'm going to send a girl in to be a honeypot. Yeah. And she's going to be in his hotel room with his laptop,

with his credentials, with like, and they're like, yeah, we know. We know. How do we fix that? I'm like,

stop commit adultery. Maybe that's one answer, right? You know, I'm up in the rally piece, but maybe that's one answer. Like, or vet these people.

Yeah. Like you're just letting them choose any girl they want. And it's like this kid, this is a trap. You know, so, you know, weaponizing this, man, I tell you, it's a dirty slope. It's a dangerous slope. It never, coming back from that, I feel would be really hard. I mean, I know some people have like Kevin, like Frank, you know, but look how far they got before they got a chance to come back. You know, they had to go to prison.

man i can't help but think about the incredible cash patel and his 26 year old girlfriend i'm sorry cash i'm sorry man i just gonna throw it out there yeah well hopefully it's for love i mean you look at what's um what's that football coach uh bellich bella he's another he's girlfriend you're like i i hope it's for love you know but i mean i guess some guys are okay having someone that beautiful and knowing it's just for the money. I guess some guys are okay with that I'm not. I want a life partner that I can enjoy sitting with and talking and going trips with and, you know, enjoying my every day with her. Right. So that's what I'm looking for. And also happens to be stunningly beautiful. But, you know. Yeah. It's so interesting. And I don't know.

I'm not in any of those positions. And I can only imagine that with great power opens up avenues and vista I have never ever seen in my entire life before. So I've just thrown it out there because I think it's hilarious, but trying to take away the judgment from it on some level. I don't, I mean, can you imagine being as rich as like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos? You would not know unless you had a different world that were there for your whole life. You would not know if this person coming to you is your real friend because of what you have or because they actually care.

Yeah. You would always be thinking in the back of your mind, like is this person being this nice to me because they want money or what, you know, so it's, it's it's it's an interesting conundrum, right? And I think some people have to, I think that's why the rich and the famous take a very big, yes, um, swaff on who they associate with because it's so hard to know if someone's being real or not. Yeah. Yeah, that that's, I'd imagine that would be a huge clientele for you. There are people that want to read your book is thoroughly understanding. And they probably get a master class in it daily.

Like once you reach a certain escape velocity, you have nothing but a target on your back. People like, this guy just hit this much money or this guy is this important. You know what they can do for me? You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, we have a really nice privilege with my nonprofit. Aisha Tyler is a big supporter of it.

And she's been gracious enough to help us out with social media, even come on some trips and donate her time. And she told me that. She's like, you know, people will hit you up. constantly for for things when you're a celebrity and if i she said if i said if i said yes to everything there would be no time to have a life you know and yeah and it's sad you know it's sad that you like when someone reaches out um as as a request you have to think to yourself like how does this benefit me right yeah and it's sad you have to think that way because you should be able to help other people without having to think that way but when you're at that status

uh being able to help people comes at a cost yeah you know comes at a cost. So it's like you want to really respect that. Understand that. And when a celebrity doesn't answer you, even if you write to them or something, there might be a reason, right? That might be a reason.

It might be too much for them. Yeah, it's so true. Betsy, what's up? Betsy, how are you? I hope the gym's running amazing. My friend Betsy's got an awesome gym down in San Diego. Awesome?

Yeah, she's super awesome. Thank you, Betsy, for being here. I'll shout out to you. I got something I wanted to tell you to later. She says, what is the most beautiful unintentional honesty you've ever witnessed in someone. I'll give you two.

Yeah. One, first with my daughter. So when my daughter was born, it makes me sound terrible, but it turned out good. She was like a big science experiment for me. I taught her nonverbals. I taught her body language. I taught her facial expressions. I taught her how to pick pockets, pick locks.

I taught her all the skills I have. as she grew up and always pounded into her. You know, you have to, you have to use these ethically. And fortunately, she always has. But she was maybe about seven or eight. And we were driving back home. And she was in the back seat. And she goes, Dad, Dad, you see that woman on the side of the road?

She was sitting on a bench. I said, no, I didn't notice her. Her face, she has very, very big sadness on her face. We need to go and take care of her. And I went, Maya, no, we're not turning around for that. And she's like, Dad, you always tell me we have to help people if we can. I'm like, you got me there. So we do a U-turn and we get over to this lady and I'm walking with my daughter.

And she's like, I just want to do this. Like, you know, let me go. And I'm like, I just have to make you sure you're safe. This woman had just been kicked out of her house. Her husband divorced her, kicked her out with her luggage. She has no car. And she was just sitting on the side of the road on the bench crying. And my daughter had noticed that.

And she goes, I don't have anything I can give you to help you, but can I give you a hug. And she gave this woman a hug. And this woman was like praising her up and down telling me, oh, my God, you raise. this unbelievable daughter and that was maybe one of the most beautiful moments I've ever seen in my life. It was like I couldn't be prouder of her, but it was also just something that I taught that skill and she used it for really good that day. You know, really good. I think the second one was I was teaching a class for Special Operations Command Group. And these guys, you know, their whole mission is like get me dropped off into a desert somewhere and we got to go into this village and we got to get everyone to come.

over to our side without hurting anyone. And that was kind of the mission of the class, right? But at the end of the week, this guy stood up in class, a big, burly guy that probably eats bullets for fun. And he is just crying. And he's telling me that this week, he realized that his marital problems are due to his communication profile. And when he took the test, then he had his profile,

he went back and talked to his wife. And he says, I understand now. And then she took the test. And today they're still married. They're still married. But he was just crying saying how this changed his whole perspective on his marital problems. And I'm like, I did not intend this class to be a marital therapy session. But I am so glad it did for you.

And we stay in touch and he's still married. Man. Yeah. So I'd say those are the when you asked that question, those are the first two things that came to my mind. I'm sure there's others, but that was the first two. Man, that is beautiful. It really drives home the point to me that we're just not taught to communicate effectively. We're such a, it's a generational trait that's passed on and on and it's something that you

learn from like you're probably great grandparents. You know, maybe it changes a little bit as you go, but if you don't do the work on it, your side monologue might not mean anything to the person that you love the most. You think about it, like my generation, kids were told you're seeing not heard. Yeah. And everybody smacked everybody. Yeah. Now we come forward to this generation and kids are horrible.

I mean, they misuse teachers. They throw things. They're disrespectful. They're, you know, they're not disciplined at all. So where's the balance of that? Well,

I say, you know, that's not a school's job. That's a parent's job, right? So parents, we need to sit back and say, okay, what do I need to do to make my kid the best person possible?

Yeah. And yes, could, back to our older conversation. I wish we could teach some of these things in school. I wish more schools would, would gather these things. But if they're not, it's your job as a parent to do that for your kids because they're going to take that to their next generation and do the same thing.

Yep. It's interesting to think about it. I had on I got I got a can I share a story with my daughter about about something that we did? Okay. So when my daughter was in, she was going to school and she was probably like six years old and I noticed like that she started lying a little bit, just little things here and there. My wife's like, Sky, you cannot lie about stuff. And then my wife had this conversation and I'm like, look, I don't think that like everybody lies, everybody does. And by us telling her not to lie, we can instill that in her, but it might drive her to do it more. I want to do this experiment where so I told my daughter, you can lie, but you can't get caught. And I thought, I thought that, okay, everyone always gets caught.

So go, you can try it, but you're going to get caught. So my advice to you is don't get caught. And so one day shortly after that, she had stayed home from school and it was just her and I at the house. And I said, Sky, it's almost dinner time. I need you to take a shower. So jump, growing up in the shower, take a, you know, take a shower and then come down for dinner. And she goes, I already took a shower. And like, I looked at her and like, I knew she had to take in a shower, but I'm like, oh, here we go.

Okay, perfect. And I go, okay, you already took a shower? She goes, yeah. I'm like, how come your hair's not wet? And she goes, I use mom's blow dryer. I'm with a son of a gun. That's pretty good. Yeah.

And so I was, I was a little bit proud. I'm like, look at her following through. Okay. And I go, that's weird because I took all the batteries out of mom's hair dryer this morning. And she goes, I put them back in. I go, you're kidding me. Wow. I know, that's three.

That's three. Epic, by the way. I was so proud of it. And I'm like, what size batteries did they take? And she went, the big ones? And then I go, Sky, mom's hairdrier doesn't take batteries. And she said, dad, I'll go take a shower.

I love that story. I love it. I know. I know, but then I always thought, like, okay, maybe I took the wrong direction. Like, I shouldn't have told her it was okay to lie like that. But, you know, it's- I got another story, though.

Okay, let's hear it. Would it be rude if I just let my dog out real quick? Doctor, take your time, man. Do it. Do it. Okay, I'll be here. Yeah, I hope you guys are enjoying it. Betsy, that was a great question that you asked.

And Polar Nights, I'm so stoked you're here, man. Thank you for hanging out with us. Checking out the show was on Twitch to everybody hanging out with us now. Check out the book Human Hacking. Chris has done some incredible work with multiple books. And if you want to reach out to them, check out the website I got right there. You can go down to the show notes, reach out to them after the cast. Or if you got any other questions, put them in it.

the chat right now we can put them towards them. Okay, sorry about that. Yeah, no worries, Matt. Sorry to your live audience. I'm the only one home and my dog was barking and that meant if I don't get to her, him, he's going to do something I can. And I have 175 pound English Mastiff. So this is not a small dog.

It's a monster. So I have a similar story, but this was later on in my daughter's life and we had to try this experiment where she broke some house rules. Okay. And I'm doing this for a living. so I'm like, I'm going to apply some of these principles to see how we can we can utilize this, right? Yeah, totally. So she broke some house rules and she got home really late and I was really worried, right?

So I have this decision tree. I can be angry dad or I can be worried dad, but I can't be both. So I have to decide. So I call it a pretext. So I'm going to be worried dad. Angry dad would be like, I demand an answer. You're grounded for life. So you get to.

home i'm like my you know i want you to know um really worried about you you were late and um i'm worried because i don't know if you were okay if you were hurt i said maybe someday you're gonna drink something or take something you think i'm to be mad at but i would rather be the one to come safely get you home than to be worried and then you you get hurt somewhere yeah i said so you know can you just can you tell me tell me what happened you know she said i don't want to talk about it I said, okay. So, well, you know what? Here's the thing. I can see you're upset. It's late. I'm upset. So why don't we do this? We're going to have a conversation in the morning about it. But why don't we just take the night off? Right. Now, why did I choose that? Because she, her emotions are high. My emotions are high. One of us are going to say something we can't take back. Right. So next morning. So I really want to have that conversation with you about this. And again, I want to reiterate, it's, it's, I'm not mad because you were late because I was worried. I couldn't get a hold of you. You weren't answering. Your location was off. I didn't know if you were hurt or not. and I felt like my heart was coming out of my chest. Like, you know, I just, I want to understand why you would do that, you know.

And then it ended up being that, you know, she was with a bunch of friends and she knew she was going to be late and she didn't want to have to tell me she knew she was going to be late. So she just shut her all her location off and didn't answer. And not she didn't do anything wrong. She didn't take a pill or do anything. She just was being mischievous. So I said, okay. I said to her, well, Maya, what do you think the punishment should be? for this.

You know, what do you think I should do? And she says, well, she probably ground me for a month and take my phone away. I'm like, ooh,

that's, that's a capital punishment right there. I was thinking like just this weekend, you know, you can't go out with your friends. Like, that's it. Like,

I'm like, a month. Like, wow, man, I hope you get better before you're a mom, you know, and she looked at me kind of like,

what? And I'm like, yeah, it would have been different, different story. I said, but here's the deal. From now on,

just be open. and honest, right? Like, if your friends are pressuring you to drink, come home. I'll give you a drink. Under my supervision, I feel you're safe. If your friends are pressuring you go to a party that might have drugs, you know, you know what can happen. Call me. I'll come get you. You know, we didn't even talk about it. And that dynamic got the results I wanted, which was the answer and a conversation about it. Whereas if I came in angry dad, which I was, because I was really upset, you know, that we would have got nowhere. and I wouldn't have those answers. So it is a matter of, you know, thinking through,

like, I don't know if your method was wrong or not, you know. I mean, did she lie again after that? Like, like a three story lie? Yeah, I haven't seen it after that. Or I haven't caught it. I don't know which is worse. But think about it. You said to her, you know, of course you can lie.

Everyone does it, but just don't get caught. And then she did. And you use the trap. Now she's like, crap. and crap dad got me right so you're right there's only two ways for her to go she's either going to improve her lying or she's going to she's going to say i got to give this up because dad's going to catch me every time right right and and it's always a bad i mean you know like i think you're what you said to your wife is is 100% right we all do it right sometimes sometimes not intentionally

right sometimes we're telling a story and we embellish or we you know we we we we forget the real facts and we add a fact in and someone else that was there goes that's That's not what happened. Yeah. It happens to everybody, right? So it's just a matter of what I try to tell my kids is, look, I know you're going to mess up. I do it too. I know you're going to lie.

I do it too. But let's try to keep those kind of lies and mess ups to things that aren't going to harm the family or you. Right. Because that's really what matters. Right. In the end. Yeah. You know, it takes us all the way back to the beginning where the outer dialogue becomes the inner dialogue.

And when you start lying to yourself, like, you know, you're in real trouble. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And yeah, I'm a living example of that. Me too. We all are. We all.

Yeah, but I mean, 17 years of gradually letting my health get to a point where I could have died because of how unhealthy I was. That is, that is a great example of your inner dialogue just fooling yourself, right? So, yeah. And the more you lie, the easier it becomes to lie. Yeah. Which is a self-fulfilling trap, right? Because now when you find it easy to lie,

to people that you love, that's a bad sign mentally for you, right? That's a bad sign mentally. Like if you can look someone you love in the face and just completely tell them a falsehood and go to sleep at night, you got you got to check yourself. You better check in because that's scary.

Yeah, you might become a CEO of a really big company. You might end up at a Cole play concert, you know? That's hilarious. You know, I almost see it like, like when I, one thing I take away, and I don't know if this is true or not, like, but when I see the giant manipulations that happen in campaigns or, you know, out in the open like that, I feel it's like a magician's trick. Like someone might have a really good sort of campaign that's borderline dishonest or might, maybe it's flat out dishonesty.

and they're just coming after fear or something like that. But I think it's like the magician's trick. Like once you see it once, you're like, oh, I get what they're doing. And that sort of opens up your awareness to like, okay, maybe I should be more cautious the next time I see these things. So maybe on some level, these giant campaigns that are being run are in some way deepening our awareness of the reality around us and our relationship to trust. Maybe. You know, I think it's marketing and campaigns have to use emotion. They have to, right?

That's the way we make, what's the way we get involved to make a decision. Right. Right. But if the, if it's dishonest, that's where the problem comes in. Okay. Right. If it's dishonest, right? So Sarah McLaughlin and her commercial was really to help dying children or dogs or whatever

it was back then. And they used every emotional trigger they could. But their reasoning for doing it was also good. Yeah. Right. So when I, like before, when I defined social engineering and I say it's any act that influences a person to take. action that may or may not be in their best interest. When it's not in your best interest and it's

only good for me, then it's a poor use of those skills. Right. So if a if a campaign is falsifying things that they're saying about their opponent or falsifying statistics or falsifying reports so they can look better, that's a poor use of these skills. That's a real that's a terrible use of these skills. We talked about them before, but pick up artists, terrible use of these skills. skills. The scammers and con men, terrible use of these skills. But even this is a person, if you're using these, you know, I'll give an example from my book. Okay. We were in the UK, my wife, my daughter, and I, and we're flying back on Virgin Airlines economy class. And I hit this bump and all of our luggage fell out. And I made a joke. I said, ah, everyone turned to

look. And I went, oh, dumb American on the M5, got into an accident. And that's one of the roads over there. So everyone kind of laughed and this one lady behind the desk. I saw her laugh and I said to my wife, oh, go to her. She's in a good mood. Right. Yeah. So and my wife does this naturally because she's just this kind of person. She was enamored by this woman's makeup. And she was just complimenting her and complimenting her and saying how you match it to your scarf. It's so beautifully done. Like, do you have a makeup artist at home? This woman was just gushing. I took an hour this morning. I wanted to look really good today. And I'm looking at this going, this is the, the, time to ask a question. So there's a couple of ways I can do this, right? I could have told her,

hey, you know, we're just coming back from a funeral. That's what we were there for. You know, one of my close friends passed and, you know, really help us to relax a little if we can get an upgrade, you know, give her that guilt. I could have done. Right. And that guilt now forces her. Let's say she couldn't do that. She couldn't do that as a kindness to say no to us as a bunch of grieving people. That's a horrible use of those skills if I were to do that. So instead, I have to give her an ability

to say no if she really can't do anything. So I said to her, I don't think we could afford it, but could you tell me how much it is to upgrade? Yeah. And she doesn't even look at me. She looks at my wife and she starts typing, typing, typing, typing.

She prints out three first class tickets on Virgin Airways. No way. And she says, here you go. This is a gift. She goes, you made me feel so good today that I just want,

I want to give you something to make you feel good. And she says to my wife, you guys have three hours before your flight. You've got to go to the lounge. And she was not wrong. The virgin lounge, you get free whiskey, free food,

free massages. Like, I would live there, right? It was amazing. Okay, so I'm telling you this because after that, I'm like,

Rista, do you know what just happened? She's like, no, what? I'm like, I'm going to tell you the science of what just occurred.

And we're going to try it again. And I said, but you always, always, always, always, the rule has to be. You have to be able to compliment the person for real. So it has to be real. It has to be genuine. And I always have to give them the ability to say no. Yeah. By saying maybe we can't afford it.

Because she could have said, oh, that upgrades 11 grand. And I went, oh, we can't afford that. Yeah. Thank you, though. You know, thanks for looking. And she didn't. She just gets it to it to us. So we tried it six more times and it worked four out of six times.

Right. That is amazing. And the one time, the one out of the two times that didn't work. we walked away and my wife said there was absolutely nothing to genuinely compliment that person about they were horrible they were in a bad mood there was no way i can find a compliment so she so she knew her compliment sounded fake and there's no rapport building there's no oxytocin released so so i'm telling you this because yes we got the benefit of getting upgrades in our in our plane flights but i always gave the person a way out so that way if they had to say no and the

second time someone said no it was legitimate they're like like, you know, I can, there's so many seats that we don't need any there. I can, I can give you an upgrade, but it's like $800 a person. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't have that today. But thanks for looking. She's like, no, no, no, I can see if I can get a discount. I'm like, no, I don't think I can afford it, you know, but thank you. Now, she still felt good for helping.

Yep. And I knew that we weren't going to get it. And she still felt good because she got complimented by my wife, too. So when you use those skills and you give people that ability to have a way out, you're not using them maliciously, right? because every one of those people had a chance to say, no, I'm sorry. Right. And we gave them a real gift with genuine compliments and being nice to them.

So I remember once that we were going for a car rental. And this lady, poor lady, she was getting chewed out by the guy in front of us up and down, chewed out. He's screaming at her, screaming. And now it's our turn. And she goes, and I said, listen, there's a long line behind me. why don't you just take a minute act like you're helping me just sit and recalibrate get your water take a drink said i'm in no rush but i said you cannot just go right back to work or after being treated like that she looks at me like really and i'm like yeah please just just sit there take a drink we're gonna be

okay and uh we were in a time crunch you know but i was like we're gonna do this so she took like a minute or two and she's like you know what i really needed that so he goes thank you for that and she didn't even ask. She just upgraded me. We got a Mercedes driving around on a Merck for a week. Like, what the heck, right? A convertible work. Like what? And I didn't even ask for the upgrade. She just thanked me for giving her that gift. She did it as an upgrade, right? So when you are kind and empathetic to people and treat them with respect and dignity, it is amazing what people will do for you. But again, you said it before. It has to be genuine. It can't be, it can't be manipulated or put on. And then you don't get the best.

benefit and you're like, well, that sucked. You have to know that you might do the really great thing and you might walk away and it might not turn into anything great for you. But I guarantee you what it will. It will give you oxytocin in your brain. You're going to get the gift of dopamine and oxytocin as well as the person that you're helping will get that same gift. So that's a big deal.

It's a good win for both you. Man, those are awesome stories. And I think it, I think it even speaks to something deeper about the need for community on some level. Everything we're doing is so transactional. You work here. You get this much. You're this personal. All these labels are put on us and everything is transactional. But when it's transactional, it's cold. It's calculated. There's no emotion. So when people get to see something for real, whether you step in and break up a knucklehead yelling at somebody or a genuine compliment, like people are reminded. Like they remember, oh, that's right. I'm a human being.

Right. You know, when we go to a restaurant, the first thing I always do, if they don't tell me, I say, hey, what's your, what's your name? Yeah. And if it is a unique name, I'll say, oh, what's the origin behind that? Like, I'm always interested. I said, like, you know, my last name means lieutenant commander. So I'm always curious about what people's names mean, right? And you'll see the smile on their face.

We get the best service every time. Yeah. And all I have to do is take two minutes out of my life to have a conversation with this person and probably is standing on her feet 12 hours a day, you know, working for next to no tips. And all I have to do is take a little bit of time to be genuinely kind to her. And I know I'm never going to get spitting my food. And I'm going to get spitting my food. I'm going to get good service, right?

And because of that, she's going to get a better tip. So it's like, take the two minutes, be kind. You know, I was in a public's grocery store and this teller and was yelling at this person because she couldn't speak English. She goes, you're in America. You need to learn English. We don't, we don't speak Mexican here. And I said, hey, ma'am, Mexican is not a language.

Mexican is a nationality. And she's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, Spanish is the language. She speaks Spanish. She doesn't speak Mexican. She might be Mexico. She might be Puerto Rican or she might be Venezuelan. I don't know what nationality is, but she doesn't speak Mexican.

She doesn't speak Spanish. So I pull out my Google translate and I say, you know, she's trying to tell you it's $20. and $12. And I say, you know, she thanks me profusely. That woman's like, why would you stick up for immigrants? I'm like, I don't know if she's an immigrant. I don't know. And I went right up to her manager and I went, listen, that woman needs you need to talk to her.

Like this is unacceptable. So sometimes you have to step in and even do that. Like you've got to, the kindness is pointing out someone else's bad behavior because she shouldn't be allowed to do that to other people even when I'm not there. Right. She shouldn't be able to speak to another human that way. It's,

that's terrible, right? I mean, just dignity and respect. Every person deserves it, you know, until they lose the, the deserving factor. Like if someone hurts a child or murders another person,

they still deserve dignity. and respect as a human, but they deserve punishment for their actions. Right. I remember I was interviewing a, this is so crazy. I was interviewing a, um,

uh, the federal agent who catches child predators. Whoa. And I said, how do you even interview them? Right. I, I think about just how disgusting that person is.

And he says to me something that, never will leave me. He says, I really want you to think of this before you answer. He says, what does a pedophile want? He wants to hurt. kids. Like, no, no, no, no. Get basic. What, what do they want? I'm thinking and I'm thinking and I'm like,

I don't know, to feel connection, to feel loved. And they're like, right. I said, so do you want to feel connection? Do you want to feel loved? I said, I do. He said, what does a terrorist want? And I'm like, I know, I want to say blow people up, but I know that's not the answer based on this conversation. I said, um, he wants to serve his God, his, his, his, his, belief system. He says, can you understand that? I said, I can. He goes, so when you're interviewing someone like that, you don't go on the actions. You go on the emotion that drove them to that action, because you could probably understand that emotion. Now, your need to connect with another human for me is never going to lead me to a child, ever, because I don't think that way. So the act that they took

deserves punishment, but if I can understand their belief system, why they did it, I can probably say I have that similar emotion in this case, which means I can have a conversation with you. That blew my mind. I was like, wow, you just opened up the doors on how to have a conversation with people who are even despicable in my opinion, right, who don't deserve dignity and respect, but you're opening the door. And I said, but why? And he's like, because what you want is you want enough evidence and proof to make sure this person goes away. And if you come in there, like TV cops slamming on there and they clam up, they're going to walk. You need, them to trust you and it needs to be genuine and that way they open up and tell you.

And this guy is responsible for, I think, over a thousand, two hundred polygraph exams on predators with a massive close ratio on getting them to admit to hands-on offenses by using those skills. And I'm like, that's a whole other level from what I do for a living. But it just goes to show you that the principles are that powerful that you can use this, even on people like that and it still works right it's amazing you might you might have a different subset which you're talking about psychopathy or so sociopathy right those those those brains work differently so i wouldn't say like someone who's a true narcissist or a true psychopath um these things

might not work because of their grandiose imagery of themselves you'd have to you'd have to always be subservant to them but um but i i probably wouldn't want to engage in that interview or conversation you know yeah but these things work They work on on everybody around. I've trained this around the globe and it works in every culture as long as you understand the nuances of the culture you're in. Yeah. It's in, you know, I do for everybody listening, there's a cool, I know one that I do on the daily is wherever I go, whether it's to a grocery store or a bank. Like the first thing I always tell people is, hey, thanks for working today.

And they go, what? I said, thanks for working today. Yeah. And they're like, is it a holiday? And I'm like, no, I'm just stoked that you're here. how to get this thing done. And like, you seem like a nice person. I'm stoked that I got in your line.

I'm thank you for working today. And their smile just raises up. And it's all of a sudden. And there's that connection there, you know. So it's free. Anybody can do it. And it makes the world a difference. So that's my little happen.

It really does. Listen, little conversations with people can change their whole outlook on their third day. It happens to me and you, right? All the time. If someone, if I'm, actually, one of the grocery store ladies did this to me. I had all my ingredients. I was there. And she goes, hey, what are you cooking tonight?

This looks interesting. And I told her and she's like, ooh, I'd love to get that recipe. Next time I came in, I slipped her to paper with a recipe on it. Right. Like, it made me feel great. Like, she was interested enough in my life to ask me what I was cooking tonight. And, and, and then was like, oh, that sounds great, right? You know, it just, it was a really interesting conversation.

I loved it. Me too. Chris, this has been an amazing conversation, man. I'm super grateful. I kept you here an hour and a half, man. I'm sorry about that. I would go longer if I didn't have something coming up. And you got to come back on because I feel like we're just kind of getting warmed up, man.

Yeah, I'll come back on. This is great. And I'm glad your audience asked questions. That's nice. Nice to have you people out there listening. Thank you for that. Yeah. Shout out to Polar Nights and Betsy and Desiree and Nick and everybody hanging out with us today. Super grateful. And before we end the interview, though, I was hopeful that you could tell people where they can find you, what you got coming up and what you're excited about. Oh, thank you for that. So LinkedIn's the best place for me. That's how I kind of interact with a lot of people. But my website is social dash engineer.com. or human hacking book as you have here on the screen. I have a couple exciting things coming in November. I'm running a two-day conference called the Human Behavior Conference. And it is not just for social engineers. We have HR people coming, CEOs.

This is about using influence in everyday life. And there'll be some stuff there about security awareness, but it's two days, some of the most amazing speakers and trainers in the world. You go to human behaviorcon.com. And for conference, for conference, you know, human behaviorcon.com. You go there, you can see the lineup. You can hop on down Orlando and November is beautiful. So I want to invite everyone to that.

And anyone who's interested in the class I was talking about, I'm teaching one in February. You can find that on the social dash engineer.com site. and I'm working on idea for my six books, so we'll see. You know, we'll see. So those are some of the things we have going on. We're doing a lot with AI right now. AIs being used by threat actors. So we're doing a lot of research into it and how to use it for defense.

But it's, yeah, there's a lot of topics we can talk about next time. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that. That's a whole, we should, I'll reach out to you because I have, my mind is blowing up, just thinking about the questions on that side. Don't you have a podcast, too? I do. Yeah, I have a four series a month. Okay.

Number one is the human element. That's the one I started in 2009, 10. And that one covers like just having a fascinating person on and seeing what we can learn from them. Then we have the security awareness series. That's one of my team members and me talking about something to help people be more secure in their life. Then the doctor is in. I have this wonderful PhD that works for me. She's a child prodigy.

She had her PhD at the time she was 20. I just read. She's written 19 papers and she's 25, something like that, 26. She's crazy. But her expertise is body language, influence, persuasion. So we do a podcast and some scientific thing once a month. And then I have this good friend who just retired. He's an Emmy Award winning reporter, Mike Holfeld.

And we do a series that's about just local events, or current events, something that's happening in the world to keep people safe. And it's called the Fourth Monday. So you can find them on the website, too. or Spotify, iTunes, wherever, you know. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're within the sound of my voice, go down to the show notes, check out the book, check out the website,

check out all the podcasts out there, reach out to Chris on LinkedIn. He seems to be pretty active over there. Get to his site and check them out. And Chris, please hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody within the sound of my voice, I'm wishing you the most beautiful day in the world. Be kind, be respectful, and have a beautiful day out there.

That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.