TrueLife - D.M.T., Dementia, & an Ambulance - This Story Should be on the cover of EVERY MEDICAL JOURNAL - Adam Tapp Story

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Adam Tapp is the host of the https://www.tappedintopsychedelics.com/ podcast. Also one of the coolest guys on the planet! https://www.tappedintopsychedelics.com/http://linkedin.com/in/adam-tapp-ba7b25238I have been a paramedic in Ontario since 2003 and a entheogen enthusiast for over a decade. Cofounder of Unveiled Science and host of the "Tapped intoPsychedelics" podcast. I'm working to promote education and the safe use of these compounds. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen

I hope you all having a beautiful day Hope the sun is shining I got an incredible guest I've been looking forward to this podcast for quite some time. The one and only Adam Tapp. From Tapt in Psychedelics podcast, the co-founder of a bail scientific,

incredible individual, great storyteller, intelligent guy, fun to talk to. And stoked you're here, Adam. How's it going, man? Good, man. I appreciate you having me on your show. And as always, your energy is fantastic. I'm all fired up now just from that brief interlude right there.

That's going, man. Yeah. Well, it's always a pleasure, man. Like I check out, first off, for those listening right now, the Tapton podcast, I think is hands down one of the best in the psychedelic realm. She'll be winning awards. And you have really unique people on there. And the way you carry conversations with people is engaging and fun. And it's fun for the audience, man.

Just wanted to throw that out there. I really appreciate that, actually, because, you know, it's funny. Not to shit on other people's podcasts. But I feel like a lot of them, it's more just you speak and will listen and as opposed to like really engaging with someone. and just trying to have a really honest conversation about psychedelics as a whole, you know, not just one specific aspect of it, which has been really enjoyable for me to get into that.

And the amount that I've learned just simply by talking to all these really amazing people, it's phenomenal, to be honest with you. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the podcast as a vehicle. Like you have this vehicle where you can pick people up, hey, get in the car for a little bit. Let's go for a little ride over here, you know, chit chat a little bit back and forth and see it from that angle. Yeah.

vehicle for growth at the very least. Like, you know what I mean? And if my listeners gain even a fraction of what I've gained from just having these interviews with people, then it's fantastic in itself. Yeah. It's pretty interesting to, and it's a new medium, I think. It's sort of like this new way of engaging people. So that's why there is at times like this side monologue that goes back and forth

because people are trying to figure out, hey, what is it like to be on this side of the mic? What's it like to be on that side of the mic? Is there any tips or tricks or is it just a conversation? for you or how do you manage that? I feel like the very first couple episodes I did I was still trying to figure out how to engage with people in this manner on this platform. You know like I've been a paramedic for 20 years. You know, almost all of my job is communicating with people in a variety of different situations. But then sitting down and then, you know, not leading someone in conversation, but asking questions that allow them to express themselves and the nuances of what they're trying to

say is I'd say it's arguably a little bit difficult. You know what I mean? Like you do it quite frequently. I'd imagine you get the same concept, right? Yeah. You know, I think it's fascinating that as a paramedic, you're constantly, it seems to me that you're dealing with different states of awareness all the time. Like first off, you got some code red or something like that. Heart rate's probably going. You go to a place where someone may have had a heart attack. You're dealing with maybe a mom or a daughter or a family member who's in a different state of consciousness. That's mention the person that may have had an accident to. I'm like, how is it dealing with that, man?

Well, I would say it's maybe a misconception probably from, you know, generalized media and TV that everything we go to is just this massive catastrophe. The vast majority of stuff we go to is someone has tummy pain, someone has this, someone has that. And then as you progressively work up the ladder, like fractures and increase severity, like I'd probably say only 10% of the stuff that we do is severe. and requires medical intervention in this moment. But then again, the idea that at any given point in time, anything can happen in that 12-hour shift is sort of a unique thing

that you have to adapt to over a career. Like, I find it can break certain people, just the anticipation of at any given point in time something truly terrible can happen. And I have to basically deal with it or make order out of a very chaotic situation, which I kind of classified as to some extent. How it like that seems to me that you had to form a relationship with uncertainty.

Like you said, that can break some people, you know, not knowing what's going to happen or all of a sudden, there is an emergency like that. What's your relationship with uncertainty? I've always found it thrilling. Like, you know, it's funny that I don't think there is another job better suited to me and my personality. But you really have to grapple with that. No one just goes into that job and is completely accepting of the uncertainty. And I found that I know early on, I think like three, four, five years in, it was starting to get to me where you're like, oh, my God, like, there could be a dead kid in the next three minutes. Like, I need to get, I need to prepare myself.

And then it just kind of, I just dumbed it down. Like, you know, our protocols are relatively simplistic. And I'm overgeneralizing. But I mean, like, if you break everything down and try not to overcomplicate things, then it gets a little bit easier. You get there. Are they breathing? Do they? You know what I mean?

Like, you go through it. And you just reduce the complexity. something and it becomes a lot easier. And the uncertainty is just having confidence in yourself to handle the situation. Like, you know, any paramedic who's gone through training is capable of dealing with the situation, it's the emotional component of it that I think people find difficult and that over time can wear on people rather significantly. I bring it up because I think that there's a, there's an interesting parallel between

like the psychedelic trip and different states of awareness. and uncertainty and emotional, emotional roller coasters. Like, have you noticed there to be like a little erudony thread that connects those things together? Well, yeah, completely. Like, you know, you get into a psychedelic experience. And larger ones, you know, like people talk about larger threshold doses and stuff like that.

And I find, like, the biggest fear that I've come across with other people and myself early on is just that uncertainty. What is going to happen? If I let go and submit, to this, do I come back? You know, or what does come back from this? Will I be able to function in society? And the uncertainty of EMS and first responders has like that interesting similarity

in the sense of just letting go and sort of submitting to the uncertainty, the very nature of it, and just trying to respond within it as opposed to fighting it. As a paramedic, have you ever been called to a place where someone was just tripping their balls off? Oh, yeah. Honestly, like I, I feel very comfortable in those calls because I'm like, hey, you know, and not so many words. I know what's going on.

Let's reel this in. And it's actually kind of funny how many people get naked on a bunch of mushrooms. And whether they're jumping in the car in the middle of the winter. Oh, yeah, totally. Maybe too. Or in their own home or something. And a lot of the time, too, it stems back to these existential ideas of existence. And usually when someone's in the middle of a very big psychedelic experience, that ideas of existence and what it means to exist comes into play or more importantly not existing.

And I think that it's one of those weird existential threats that, you know, is present in all of us. But when it's thrust in front of you and you have to work through it, it's, yeah, I can rise and panic. And a lot of these people I can say all had the exact same thing. They didn't have a sitter. they didn't prepare themselves perhaps in the best possible way, but at the end of the day, they didn't have a calming voice being like, hey, it's okay.

You know, if you want to get naked, that's fine, but let's not go outside. Let's, you know, let's go back over here and sit and, you know,

ride this out. Yeah, it's interesting how that happens. And, you know, you bring up a question about, um, coming back from a trip.

Sometimes I feel like I never really come back the same. Like a little part of me changes. Maybe it's an idea that changes. Maybe it's a view that changes. And sometimes maybe it's because I look for that change. But how do you feel about that? Do you think you always come back the same or you come back to baseline? Or what about bringing something back?

You know, even as time goes, I'm different than I was a second ago with or without psychedelics. You know what I mean? Like every experience we have micro or macro changes us ever so slightly. And we are literally a byproduct of every single fentosecond of existence previous to. this moment. And so, you know, you go into a psychotic experience and I find coming out of a large experience to be hectic. You know, you're coming back to yourself. You're coming back to your notions of your ego identity. And I don't think I've ever come out of a psychedelic experience not changed. But I think the difference is that the gradual change of just simply being alive versus the very

brunt, significant change in perception coming out of a larger psychedelic experience is quite significant. Like I've come out of some before or I'm like I am permanently altered to my core. And I've always found it to be a good thing. I guess that's quite subjective, mind you. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I think it was Terence McKinna who said, if you've taken an amount where you don't say immediately afterwards, oh shit, I've taken too much. I'm going to die. Then you haven't taken enough. I actually agree with that. Like, I've, you know, I've been probably doing psychedelics. pretty solidly for over a decade, which is not much compared to some people. And I guess it's not a competition. But, you know, you start doing them and you see the capacity for change within yourself.

And I think one of the biggest things that psychedelics does early on is gives you self-awareness, you know, awareness of yourself. Because if you've only ever been looking through one single linear perspective, and then all of a sudden you get lifted up and you're seeing yourself as this profoundly complex whole and recognizing the difference between the multitude of coping mechanisms we construct around ourselves and then see how a single thought or emotion gets so deeply warped by the time it comes out to be expressed. They know from that moment on, you're like, okay, so I see the complexity and I see the capacity for change within that.

But, you know, I do firmly believe that the greatest thing that psychedelics provide is just sheer self-awareness. Yeah. The ability to express yourself in different forms and ways after a deep psychedelic experience has been transformative for me. Maybe that's because I feel on some level you're given this perspective change. For a moment, you get to go to the mountaintop and see yourself in like this third party or something like that.

Or maybe someone would explain it differently. But for me, it's always this incredible radical shift in perspective. perspective that reveals to me something I can do to change my life. And like that, that has been so therapeutic for me on so many levels, man. How do you describe it? Have you noticed that as well? Or is there something similar that happens to you?

Or what's your take on that? Yeah. Well, you know, so I did LSD and suicide. I had an MDMA when I was a teenager. And that was, you know, the rave scene and different things. And then I just, I quote unquote, became an adult. I went to school and I just stopped doing psychedelics because that's not what you do. And then I just resolved of the,

old-fashioned whiskey. You know, and I feel like just independent of just the stressors of life, I think it was accumulating stressors from the career. You know, you're seeing dead kids and people ripped apart and you don't have the opportunity to express yourself or the sheer care of what's going on in front of you because if I did that, then I'd be like everyone else around screaming and panicking. So you really have to swallow a lot of things. And I remember the first psychedelic I did as an adult.

adults objectively, but, you know, in the ages of 30s and so forth was Iboga. And I feel that it was a dark, dark and grimy, gritty grind through myself. And I feel like the biggest part of that was letting go. You know what I mean? Like just letting go of all these things I'm holding on to, these things that I think are imperative to my identity and these things are imperative to my, you know, survival. And just letting go. And, you know, in a way, I feel like all these emotional memories I had just thrown away like dirty, wet laundry. And they were just stuck in this hamper and they were fermenting and just off-gassing.

And the whole Iboga experience was literally like putting them in the laundry and washing them and drying them and folding them and putting them away. You know, it wasn't about removing these or excising these from my psyche. It was about just processing them and putting them back. And it was, you know, in a way it was like I built this dystopian city of coping mechanisms and these weird distorted ideas and then just destroying it all. And, you know, the next day I felt literally reborn. Like, I just felt like I was glowing. And I was like, oh my God, like this, how have I been living before this? How have I been holding the weight of all of this weird subjective pressure that I've been, you know, just forcing myself to live.

look through. And it was like stunning and profound and life changing. And then after that, I was like, oh my God, I need to explore this space. I need to like really look at myself profoundly and objectively and trying to work through all the things that I've been holding on to. You know, it's it was almost this idea that, you know, from a very young age, you know, you're born and you're sort of given a name and you're, you emulate your parents. and then you start emulating your peer groups and behavior is either encouraged or not encouraged and you start creating this identity. And, you know, at some point in time, it almost seems like in the path to do this,

you just create all these interesting coping mechanisms and they become these rigid structures surrounding you. And you're just trying to see to the other side. And it was amazing to me how obvious it was after that big psychedelic experience and how completely and obvious it was to me before. You know what I mean? Like it was, it was just, I'm just living, I'm alive.

This is how it is, this weird layers of anxiety that I experience all the time are normal. And then having that experience and seeing that there is arguably a much better way to live is earth shattering to some extent. Or certainly psyche,

psyche shattering. It's interesting. Like, so you have had, on some level, I would like, I would like you to, if you're okay with it, to explain, I know you've had a huge gargantuan trip on mushrooms. And I'm hopeful you can talk about that because I would like to hear the difference between the Iboga trip and the mushroom trip. There's probably some similarities, some differences. But in order, before we can do that, you have to share with people the mushroom experience. Yeah. So, you know, Iboga was the first one.

And it wasn't like Iboga was me stepping, you know, dipping my toes in the water. And I think at some point I slipped in up to my waist in that experience. But that was like eight hours or something. Like Oboga's a long hour. Oh, it was more than eight hours, man. It was probably like 14 or 16 hours of like in it. And then even there was this period where it had tricked me into thinking I was going to die and having to come to terms with mortality.

And then it let me out of it after that. So it was like layers upon layers. It was like inception, you know, a dream with it, a dream with it. Yeah, totally. And it was interesting. But again, too, right? Like every psychedelic has its own nuance to it. You know, like I Bogga, some people say it's like the stern patriarchal figure.

And I get that. Like it was stern. It was tough love. It was like, hey, look at this. Deal with this. We're not going anywhere. You bought the ticket. You take the ride.

Whereas I find psilocybin is more, I don't want to say ethereal, but there's, it lacks gender. It lacks judgment. and it lacks context of human behavior. And I know, like, you know, I started doing mushrooms after that. My wife and I, I know, we did like, you know, the two grams and then five grams, and then 10, and then 20, and then 30. And then we ended up doing 42 grams of dried psilocy and quibensis mushrooms each. Well, and it sounds insane, but like, Kalindi Isles, who has, you know, he did all this thing and he was a proponent of these 28 gram trips. I remember reading that being like, wow, like, that's insane.

And then we kind of worked our way up to it. I'm like, there is still so much more in the space. But I think at 42 grams, you know, it was one of those things. It was like my wife and I, we merged into one singular, undeconstructed thing that was just simply existing. And it was like the creation of consciousness, the creation of life. And it was wild. And even coming out of it, like the trip roughly lasted the same as what with the five gram.

experience. But the intensity, like it probably lasted another hour maybe. But coming out of it was just one time loop after another time loop after another time loop. Like the experience itself was beautiful. It was visceral. It was everything. But coming out of it was really hard. It was just one, like literally a time. I remember standing at the sink at one point in time when I was drinking a glass of water and I put it down and all of a sudden it just, the glass fractured in my hand. And it was like I had done this an infinite number of times. And I was like just looking at the glass. And it wasn't broken or anything, but it was just staring at it.

And I'm like, I have done this an infinite number of times. And I just sat there staring at it for what appeared to be ever. And then all of a sudden I kind of snapped out of it. But in another time loop and then another time loop. And, you know, I think my wife afterwards, she was like, that was the closest I ever came to losing my mind. And I'm like, dude, we lost our minds like a thousand times in that. We just found it.

Like it's, but then again, too, like, you know, doing that with someone else. Right. Like our relationship is so honest and authentic to some extent. Like you can't have that experience with someone else and merge together like that. And just go through the passage of time and eons and billions of years of just simply existing and then come out of it and not be like, hey, I understand you. You know, like it's, yeah, there's something very interesting about that. And now that experience, too, like, you know, the dose of Ibogai did wasn't spectacularly high by any means. It was what I, I think my, the friend of mine who facilitated for me said that it was, you know, a spiritual dose.

So it wasn't a flood dose like you would do for opioid cessation or anything like that. So I think what I got was fairly standard. But, you know, with the psilocybin, we pursued it till I got to a point where I perceived. I couldn't go any further without it just being static. Yeah. Did you, I've noticed on some higher doses. Like,

I've gone as high as like 18. For me, it was the first time I had really noticed, I'm 14 too, but I noticed that there was like a multiple peaks for me. Like I came up and then it was like, and there was another come up afterwards. And at that higher realm,

there was a more clear vision. At like eight or 10 for me, you would get to the spot and it was irretrievable to bring stuff back. But I learned at 14 or 18, all of a sudden there was a clarity there. Like, oh, shit. Like, I remember this now, you know, on some level. Wait, what's your take on that? I totally agree with that.

I find, like, in and around the 20, like, you really have to dissolve yourself. Yeah. Because I don't think people realize how much we get in our own way. Yep. You know what I mean? And in these lower doses, don't get me wrong. They're therapeutic. They're cathartic.

You can work through all kinds of things. But in these higher doses, you're just, you're, you're being. you're being removed from your own way. You can't possibly get in front of yourself. And you just let go. It's a great way to put it. You know what I mean? Like we are always our own worst enemies in almost every aspect of our life.

And I find in like these high doses like that, you know, 20 plus probably. And then I feel like at around the 42 was different than I think the one previous of that was 30. And then the 42 was just there was it was just absolute clarity. It was just perfect clarity. and it wasn't really you know it was almost like within its simplicity was perfection if that makes sense

yeah it wasn't like these fractals and this and that it was just perfection and clarity I'm always amazed at the relationship to language that psychedelics have you often bump up against the ineffable and that's what we described about wanting to bring something back

or you know bumping shoulders with an idea but you know not really putting your arm around it, if that makes sense. But what do you think? Yeah, man. You know, I find that language, you know, it's an interesting, like language has developed to describe the things around us. Yes.

You know what I mean? And then as we've been able to look further and look smaller, we've adapted language to that, but it doesn't have that much meaning. We can't really understand it. Like, you know, you can tell me a billion people. I don't know what fuck that means. Like, I get it. I can't really visualize it or a trillion stars or, you know, quantum

entanglements and these particles that both vibrate and take form with observation. Like, I understand the concept, but I don't understand it. And I find that with using language, describe a psychedelic experience, it's almost like you're taking that experience, you're putting in a box with the constraints of language. You know what I mean? And then you just limited it. You know, a lot of people, like I've been privy to a couple psychedelic trips, and I find I always tell people, I'm like, don't try and explain it.

Don't put it into words because you're going to limit for yourself as well. You know, the moment you try and categorize this and explain it, you're limiting for yourself and just inadequately describing a profound experience of someone else. It's more like just sit with it and be with it. Don't try and analyze it. Just let it work through you. You know, you want to journal something great. You want to talk about it, give it a day or two.

You know, it's I almost find one of the worst things that someone can do is come out and be like, and this, and this. And then you kind of falter off. And you're like, yeah, it's words don't describe something because the words weren't meant for that. Yeah, one of my favorite Alan Watts quotes is he's like, what's the true name of God? Who cares? Who cares? Yeah, it doesn't matter.

And God is such a loaded term too. So loaded, man. It is. Like, God is almost immediately drawn into theocracy and people get these ideas of this bearded sky daddy casting judgment. And it's like fair, you know, we, North America or even Western culture itself, you know, whether you're secular, you come from a secular family and all these different things, it's the undercurrents of theocracy, like passive theocracy that just simply exists. Like, I'm not Christian, but I know what a cross sinuates. I know, you know, these interesting ideas of shame and guilt that permeate Catholicism are sort of in all of us, just, you know, by simply being in this culture. And so it is difficult to separate these undercurrents or perhaps subconscious iconography that we see in sociology with what's actually going on around us.

But, you know, I guess that's sort of working through the fog to some extent to try and see what's on the other side. It brings up some interesting questions about the world of psychedelic, the medical container. Sometimes I get worried or trip out about the medical container today in which we see psychedelics. You have all this integration going on. And, you know, it's like, I get it on some level trying to help people with PTSD or some kind of mental disorders. But it seems so limiting to me. Like, the medical container seems like such a small container. Like, there's so much more out there, you know.

And I start talking to people about integration and, oh, you got to integrate. You got to integrate. But it's just words, right? Like, on some level, are you really helping people with integration? What's your take on this new wave of medical container integration, all this stuff? I, it's one of those things like how do you adapt something so esoteric and profound into a rationalistic, materialistic system of medicine. And I've talked with that up with a number of people on my show, whether it's academics or doctors or whatever. It's like, how do you, how do you see these things integrating?

You know, how does, how does the mystical experiences derived by a higher dose psychedelic experience fit into our perception of Western medicine where we still think that, oh, this is just, neurons firing or this is, you know, a hallucination that has no truth or merit. And people can't explain it, but things in our Western system of medicine require explanation. And so it almost seems like in an attempt to bang this star through a square hole, we're applying things to it to give it reflections in what we perceive as Western medicine. And I don't think that's an easy process. And I don't know how it happens. You know, I'm certainly not suggesting. that someone's doing it right or wrong, but I feel that you're almost replacing ritualism with medical advice in that sense surrounding these things, or it's like you need to set

intention, you need integration. And the consistency that every single person I've had in my podcast, who is a facilitator or something is always you need to set intention. Integration is the most important thing. And I don't disagree with that, but I've never set an intention. You know, like my tension that I always set simply is I love you and I trust you. when I just go in. Because oddly enough, you know, there's a part of me that knows what I need far more than Adam does.

And I don't want to sound crazy, but like, you know, up until recently, like, how has my, you know, advice for myself been working? No, it's been fucking terrible. You know, like, here, drink some whiskey, do this. Be, you know, don't be vulnerable to anyone because they will stab you in the back and hurt you. You know what I mean? So it's like setting intentions, doing this. I find it's just another mechanism of control that we exert on ourselves and the experience.

And that might work for people. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying it doesn't work for me. And I've always just surrendered to the experience and come out with things that are relevant to my self-improvement. You know, if I've ever sat there and be like, I want to deal with this time that someone said this to me and that or I want to deal with this, you know, more often than not the last thing that ever comes up is that. It's, you know what I mean? Right. It's something else entirely.

Like, we're a profoundly, profoundly complex emotional creatures. And to dumb something down to a simple intention seems, I don't know, naive. And I know that people aren't going to like that, but that's just my perspective. And I think integration is one of those unique things where it's like, I get that. You know, if you go into a profound psychedelic experience, you come out with all these lessons, and you ignore them all. And like, you're not going to be all that different than when you came out. You know, it's, I've heard many people say this and I agree with it.

It's not so much as the experience says is the space between them. You know, it's what do you do with this information? You know, someone can give you good advice and you can choose not to take it. That happens all the time. You know, if you go in there and you find these things. And more often than not, when you go into a psychedelic experience, you're finding, you know, accepting negative things about yourself. Yeah. You know, you're realizing why you say and you do certain things, you know, behaviors and habits, why you've lashed out at this person.

And more often than not, that they stem to places that are relatively dark. And then having to maneuver within yourself to accept that negativity within yourself, I think it requires a lot of effort, post experience, and the space between where you're just like, yeah, I can be a dick sometimes. You know, yeah, I have issues with vulnerability. I have issues with a variety of different things. You know, I think one of the biggest things that I've learned through all my psychedelic experiences is that there's a very big difference between what I truly am and what I want myself to be. And it's so murky and interconnected and complex,

but it's like, you know, more often than not, we all want to be something greater than ourselves for a variety of reasons. We're profoundly social. We create hierarchies and structures. structures within our communities and environments and we're constantly inundated with ideas of masculine and feminine beauty. And you know what I mean? Matthew McConaughey tells me that a Lincoln Navigator is going to make me a better person or be, make me my authentic self.

And it's like, okay, fair. But that's not the reality. You know, like, I want to potentially be better looking. I want to be smarter. I want to different color of eyes or whatever because that's the perception that's been put upon me. And I think part of that is this really just simply accepting who and what you are in working through all the, all the reasons why you want to be something else. And there are so many of them. Yeah.

It's, I think that there's a, you know, you spoke about letting go earlier and some of these big trips giving you the momentum to do that. Like in a, in a big move, whether you're moving houses or anytime you can begin, to let go, I think you begin to touch upon the idea that you got to let go of the life you have

in order so that you can live the life that's waiting for you. If that kind of makes sense, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, there's also something interesting, too, about the idea of letting go is like, you know, sometimes I can capitalism or people in a capital system to like squirrels hoarding nuts. Totally. For an eventual circumstance that may or may not come. But also part of that too is our fear of loss.

You know, like there's something interesting about the idea that at some point, I am going to lose everything, everything that I've loved, everything that I have, everything that I've earned and including my own identity in life as I, you know, die, which is inevitable. And I think the one thing to understand from that or take from that is like, the sheer fact that I'm going to lose everything should not be a point of contention to be anxious. It should be a point to realize that the contrast that is provided by that loss gives meaning to the value of what you have in that moment. And we can spend all of our time looking to the future like, I could lose this, I could lose this, I need to hold on to this, I need to keep this, as opposed to just being in the moment and truly appreciating where you are in that space.

Like, you know, I got a daughter and a son on the way and like, man, I fucking love that kid. And I just, you know, in these moments, I just be with her. And I'm like, I'm not thinking about anything else. And I find I know a lot of people that's like, they get sick. This could happen. This could happen. I'm like, yeah, but that's not happening now. Right.

Everything is okay right now. Just be in this moment and simply allow yourself to accept and love the moment that we have. You know, like it's one of those things. Like you live in Hawaii. You know, I live in Canada. Right now, the weather of such is quite shitty. It's wet. It's damp.

but I appreciate a sunny day due to the absence of it. Like I, you know, the moment the sun shining in the spring, I'm like trying to get sun on my chest. And it's almost like in an absence of something or the perceived absence of something gives value to what it is. You know, like I almost, I had COVID recently. And it was, it sucked, but whatever. And it was almost like coming out of it.

I was like, oh, man, I really appreciate not being sick. Yeah. You know, thank you for making me sick so that I can, again not take for granted not being sick and i just think that some people you spend your entire life searching for something and perhaps you know just being in a moment and enjoying what you have is not a bad thing to do every now and then you know it's it's like everyone is white-knuckling their life just foot on the gas trying to plan for every different future and all these different things and it's like that's fine but it's trying to find that balance between just being

a moment and still functioning in a society that requires madness every now and then. Yeah, it's it is madness, you know, this this race from the hospital to the graveyard and fearing death, you know what I mean? It seems like it seems like at least in the Western world like we don't even talk about death. I think there's a spiritual connection. There's a psychedelic connection there because sometimes it does feel like part of you is dying. You know, people talk about ego deaths, but we could talk about death of habits and stuff like that.

What do you think about when I say that? Well, like, I feel like ego death gets thrown around a lot. Sure. And it far be it for me to suggest that someone does or doesn't or not. You know, I've had a handful of ego deaths before. One was specifically actually dying. And another time was like, you know, 5MODMT is very, very good at giving ego deaths. And just this complete dissolution of self where you really do just.

completely take your foot off the gas. You know, it's like that scene from Fight Club, where Edward Norn and Brad Pitt are in the car, and they just, you know, put their seatbelts on and let go. And it's like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like it's having that experience of completely submitting to self, perhaps, and then coming out the other side and being like, yeah, the ship didn't sink. You know, it's visceral and it's profound.

And, you know, I think, again, this gets into the esoteric where you get into the notions of identity you know again like we're mentioned earlier like you know you're basically construction identity yeah and and that identity becomes paramount and there's like you know let's let's be realistic millions and millions arguably billions of years of genetic programming that make me need to have survivability baked into me because if i didn't then i won't be alive none of us will be alive and we wouldn't have this conversation and so the fight for our perceived sense of survival, I think, comes into play in a lot of these circumstances with higher dose psychedelics, where you are letting go of your perceived identity. But when you really let go of it,

and then you see the greater amount of what you are, which is so much more significant. You know, it's almost like the identity that we have or what I perceive as Adam, this constructed identity, is almost like this tip of this iceberg. And there's this massive body of complexity underneath the water that I think most people never really get to see. I think, I think, that psychedelic sort of illuminates that. It makes the complexity of us, the massive body of just sheer complexity apparent. And it's very much humbling in a very significant way where you're like, yeah, you know, a lot of the concerns and things that I have about existence, about life, seem to pale in comparison to the sheer significance of what we all are.

I love it, man. It brings up this idea. I was listening to Jules and Abigail the other day, and they were talking about, like, derealization, which is the first time I really even heard that word. But I think it touches on what you said. On some level, I think when people begin to have a sort of long-term relationship with psychedelics, then they are able to take shed that identity. But what does it mean when you shed that identity? What does it mean when you're like, I fucking hate this job?

We're not going to do it anymore. You know what? What about your family? I got to pay for that kind of stuff, you know? Like, I think there's a real, you know what I mean? Like, that's a real thing. I'm not going to fucking do that. I hate that shit.

I'm not going to do it anymore. Well, it's like, I think one of the issues is that when people perceive the idea of letting go or shedding their identity that all of a sudden you're going to be someone alone living in the bush eating insects or something. It's like, fair. If that is really where you want to go, that's fine. But like, you know, I think it's just shedding your identity is not so much as I think it's the recognition that there are so many walls. built up around us that we perceive as identity, but our coping mechanisms that we've developed. And perhaps in that moment, that coping mechanism was relevant for me.

But I've grown, but yet that coping mechanism is still there. And it ceases to be beneficial and it becomes destructive. It's blocking. And so I think when people say shedding your identity, you know, I think it means more to the idea of shedding the illusion of identity that we carry with us, so deeply ingrained with us, ideas of us. You know, like it's, do I, is the goal of me doing psychedelics to not be Adam and simply just be this semi-force blob existing with, you know, absolute awareness? No, that's fucking stupid.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't want that at all. I just want to be Adam the best possible way that I can. I don't want to be all of these byproducts of a lifetime or lifetimes of traumas and coping mechanisms. And I think that's what the goal is. there is such a thing as a goal. You know, that was actually oddly enough, one thing that I was struggling with years ago, specifically with Five MODMT, is notions of identity and existence.

And it's like, well, what happens if I let go of everything? Do I become that man in the forest not speaking and just, you know, just sitting there alone in my thoughts because I need nothing around me. But at the end of the day, like, you know, one can make the argument that we're playing roles. Yeah. You know, I'm playing the role of Adam as this, you know, simian primate. almost apian, you know, talking monkey,

moving around, moving within the earth, having relationships. And I'm totally 100% okay with it. That's fantastic. I just don't want to be dragged down by my own self-perceptions. And I think that's what shedding identity is. Yeah, that's good. I like that. It's breaking free of the conditioning that we have had since grade school.

You know, like we've sort of been trained like Pavlovian dogs where, you know, You can be, pick one of these seven things, George, you can be one of these seven things. You know, no one ever told me I could retire at the age of 33. I didn't have that option. You know what I mean? Well, why would they tell you that?

Because that he wouldn't be contributing to the capitalist system. You know, we, you need, it's, you know, we've, like it, I don't necessarily know a better system. You know, communist hasn't worked out super well. Futilism hasn't worked out super well. It's difficult to go back to egalitarian hunter gathering groups. It's probably not going to work in our population densities. You know, but yeah, dude.

But part of it too is like you need to be conditioned. You need to be conditioned to then be deconstructed. You know, like if you just, you know, like my kid, for instance, you know, I'm trying to raise her in a way that she can function independently and create an identity, but you need to help them. You need to provide them with substance for them to attach onto and pad themselves to create this idea. And there's no such thing as perfect parenting. You just do the best you can. But then now they're in the media. Now there's social media.

And there's peer groups. And there's all these different things that are also influencing perhaps negatively, maybe positively, I think more often than not negatively. Like we all need to be programmed to then start deprogramming yourself. It's almost a necessity because when people talk about you need to deprogram yourself. Well, yeah, you need to be programmed first. You can't deprogram something that doesn't. doesn't have a program set in the first place.

You know, and we all have to grow up and make mistakes and stub our toe and fall off some shit and have your heart broken and get beat up and all these different things because you need adversity to build yourself. In an absence of adversity, then what are we? You know, you need the adversity to create something. But in the way of creating adversity, you're also creating traumas and damage. And then you get to a point in your life where like, okay, I can start deconstructing. this I have been sufficiently programmed but now the program's not working for me

you know and I can continue programmed and make my way through life and a lot of people have and that's fine yeah I just didn't want to you know it was almost if the moment I was aware that's wear of the programming per se it was like wow I need to deconstruct this you know it's it's almost like you know cutting down the trees you know just to see that individual point cut down the forests you know I mean, it's... Yeah, I do. It's...

Awareness of patterns has been key in my life. And once you begin to notice something, then too becomes the notice that you can change it. You know, or at least what... I think the idea of awareness is key in deprogramming or deconstructing or in seeing it. What's your take on patterns and pattern recognition, not only in your life, but seeing it in other people's lives. It seems to me like once you notice something... something in other people. It's sort of because you notice it in yourself.

Have you seen that before? Like when you see people, you're like, that guy's a fucking asshole. And you're like, no, no, no, I'm an asshole. The guy's just mirroring it to me. Well, it's like we're, so, okay, we're mammals and we're primates. Right. And our brain has designed to recognize patterns.

That's what we do. We stereotype everything. And it's not bad. Well, it can be, but not in the circumstances of survival. And so, like, we are patterned. pattern recognizing beings. And I totally know what you mean is. It's almost like when you buy a new car, you know, I, you know, my wife, my wife got a

Subaru Forrester and I've never noticed them. And then all of a sudden, like Super Forrester's over there. Super Forrester. Like, you know, once it's become apparent to you, you start seeing them everywhere. And it's also difficult, too, because recognizing patterns can be both negative and positive. Like the patterns that I'm recognizing might be emotionally brought on in their negative patterns that I'm seeing that perhaps aren't there.

Yeah. No. And it's, it's sort of an interesting concept is like, you know, you can never deal with anything or properly address something without adequate recognition of it in the first place. And you're right. You know, like, I know that earlier on, you know, before I started doing psychedelics and stuff, like I would, my behavior was so predictable. To me, it wasn't, but it was, it really was. And then now after being, you know, recognizing those patterns. I see them in other people as well where I'm like, okay, you're cascading down this path and it's it's because of some deeper insecurity that is now triggering an anger response because anger is a lot easier to deal with than shame or or insecurity or any number of things. You know, I think that applies for a lot of people too. Like anger just happens to be a very safe emotion to express because you're not being vulnerable. And more often than not,

I think angry people are just deeply insecure. And I don't, you know, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I just, that's just generally my observations on that. Yeah. Sometimes I've begun to see nature as a language. Like, it's been really helpful for me. You know, you can go out and you can sit in the garden or, you know, you can see the way, like, some ants were eating my psychotopia of aridus tree the day.

And I'm like, what the fuck are these ants doing? They're all over there just eating all this shit. And then I started thinking like, I started having all these negative thoughts. And I'm like, the ants are eating this tree the same way these negative thoughts are eating my good condition over here. You know what I mean? But it's so weird to begin to see those patterns in nature. You're like, oh, hey, thanks, plant. You know, it's so weird how that information can be revealed to you if you just take time to look at it.

And have you noticed that as well? Well, I find like nature's just fractal math. You know what I mean? Like you seed everywhere. You see it in ripples. You see in the trees. You seed in fungal bodies and mycelial. You know, I feel like the entire universe is just an expression of math and self-repeating fractal, you know, mathematical equations.

And, you know, and much like our behavior in the forms of patterns have like an interesting reflection of that. It could be very, very, very self-perpetuating if you let them be. And, yeah, man, I see that too all the time. I used to watch ants constantly. I find them absolutely fascinating. Really, though, dude. Like, you know, you would have ants creating like complex forms of agriculture and growing like fungal bodies for food. you know, and animal husbandry taking aphids and milking them for food, you're like,

oh, this is good incredible, you know, and it's the complexity within nature or emergence where you have a bunch of little automaton's all working together to perform a profoundly complex system. It's interesting. So when I think of my ceiling and I think of behavior, you know, I think of different fruiting cycles. Obviously, there's seasons and you've got to grow your stuff, make sure it doesn't get contaminated, and then hopefully, you know, once you've done everything accurately, you'll start getting some fruits that pop up.

And when I look at that cycle of it, like I look back to the last fruiting cycle, maybe being like in the late 50s and early 60s, when we saw this medical container of first psychedelics, and then it leaves the medical container and there's this explosion of creativity. On some level, I feel like we're in that cycle now.

Like maybe this medical container is an echo of the 50s and we're getting ready to move into this new explosion of the 60s. But I don't see our Jimmy Hendrick. or I don't see our tune in, turn in and drop out. I don't see those guys. You know, I've seen the Timothy Learys and stuff. You know, I guess everything is cyclical. You know what I mean?

Like everything is. You know, you look at politics. You look at economics. You look at life in general. Everything follows these cyclical movements. And, you know, I personally think that, you know, psychedelics have been with us for a very long time. And I thought, I've heard people say like,

oh, we're now entering this experiment with, psychedelics. And I'm like, I feel like the experiment without psychedelics is about to end. You know, and I don't want to sound crazy, but I don't think it's worked all that well. You know, everyone's at each other's throats. People are freaking out. Polarization and the ability to have conversations. You know, and even today, like, you know, you see the Paul Stamance and Rick Doblin and these are the new Timothy Learys and, you know, the people moving this forward. And this still, I think, is in its infancy. Like a lot of people are like, ah, yeah, we've made it. I'm like, no, we're just putting our shoes on, man.

Like, I literally just tying your laces. Like, this is just starting. And I think that stems from the ideas of Echo Chambers. Hmm. You know, where it's, I think it's a bipartisan of social media. I think it's a bipartisan of internet and YouTube. Or if I look at something, I'm most likely going to be bombarded with that because it's preference. And so we're constantly inundated with psychedelic messaging, psychedelic messaging.

And it's like, yeah, we're moving. And we are. Don't get me wrong. But I just think that we're at the start of the race for moving this forward, I think. Because to me, it's like it's not necessarily about a government saying that you can use this. It's about it being accepted in a population. You know, it's the population itself accepting this and utilizing this and having an entire demographic starting to heal from generational trauma,

from our own lives, from ourselves. You know what I mean? Like it's it's moving. I just think it's we shouldn't be calling this right now. You know what I mean? Like,

oh, we've made it. You know, Michael Pollan puts some shit on Netflix and it's like, yeah, that's amazing. One could argue that that was almost like the start of this moving forward

was like public acceptance. You know, the biggest difference I think in the 60s was that the only acceptance of psychedelics was in a very, very small, small population of very brightly colored people. behaving in a way that was so abhorrent to the popular culture.

And now you're starting to see psychedelics, you know, glean acceptance with a lot of demographics. You know, like I think in Canada, 80% of the population thinks that psychedelics should be utilized in some form and mental health treatment. That's incredible. Yeah. Like 80% of a population. And now it's getting that to people and allowing people to utilize these things and,

you know, and not having all this weird stigma surrounding it. And that takes time. You know, like we've got 50, 60, 70 years, you know, hundreds of years, arguably of this weird stigma against psychedelics. And it's going to take more than just five, six, seven years to sort of remove ourselves from that. Yeah, I agree. It's interesting. I like to go back and watch some of, like, Lerie's talks in his lectures. And, like, the more that I do, the more I think that guy had it right.

You know, I know people were mad at him, but I don't know. the longer it goes, I'm like, there's a well up there. You know what I mean? Pretty responsible. Well, and I think Leary was almost, you know, I find that a lot of people, you'll do some psychedelics, and you'll, perhaps you'll realize you're God, but you don't do enough to realize that so is everybody else. And you maybe lose yourself in this, in this idea. And I think Lir, I don't think he was necessarily wrong. I think he was just wrong for the time that he existed.

Yeah, I suppose that. You know what I mean? Like, if Timothy Lary was running what he was saying, like, you know, maybe eight years from now, it might have had a very different reception, but it came off as being anti-establishment, anti-government. And at a time, you know, the Vietnam War and anti-war sentiment, it became like an actual sexual threat to the government. And they responded in kind as governments do with layers upon layers of misinformation.

and bureaucracy and, you know, criminalization, and here we all are. You know, it's sometimes races are best suited walking slowly. You know what I mean? And I feel like in the 60s, it was, let's get this out and force acceptance down people's throats. And I don't think the population in general was ready for it. Yeah. Getting ahead of yourself on some level like that.

It's such a fascinating time. and the explosion of creativity is, I think a lot of people that share a love of psychedelics share a love of creativity. Like there's a really unique sort of relationship there between psychedelics, whether psychedelic art or language or poems or music or, you know, just like you said, having a relationship,

the experience you had with your wife is like a union of souls on some level. You know what I mean? It's fascinating to think about. Well, I think everyone is creative. It's just a matter of, you know, I look at it this way. Like, you know, if I'm 70% anxious and 30% depressed, I don't have a lot of room for anything else. Right. You know what I mean?

And I find that psychedelics have that unique capacity to uncover our creativity by giving more room to express it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's amazing how many people I know, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm fine. I'm okay. And I'm like, but are you, though? Like you can just see it coming off you, the anxiety and the stress and you fly off the handle about nonsensical things that have no meaning. And it's like, you know, if we just were able to back off and perhaps understand ourselves a little bit more and work through some of our issues.

You know, I think creativity just flows from all of us as long as we have the capacity to experience it and express it properly. Yeah, me too. I know on some, I think on some of your recent podcast you were talking about DMT, have you seen, have you seen. any of these long-form DMT experiments? Have you read about those? Yeah, I interviewed Kevin Tharban from the DMTX program. Nice. And Imperial College is doing one. I think DTMX is more, they don't have the same constraints that an ethics department would put on an academic institution so they can sort of pivot and twist and adjust what they're doing a little bit more. You know, Imperial College should have started like Chris Timmerman and everything.

And I think it's, I think it's really interesting to be honest with you. Like, I love it. Like even talking to Thorbin, it was like, man, I think what you guys are doing is, is incredible. Like, look, look where we are, you know, in such a short period of time, if you really think about it. Once, we know, once a jackboot's been taken off your throat as a culture, we, you know, in a very short period of time, we're doing really extended state DMT experiences, you know, going into a DMT experience for like an hour, two hours, like, how far can you extend this? And then in doing it not necessarily to see neural activity, but to understand the space, see if there's these common themes or arch types that exist within that. And yeah, no, I think that that's awesome, to be honest with you.

What was some of the nuggets you took out of that interview? Were they able to explore the environment and find objects or, you know, similarities or what were some of the highlights of that? Well, you know, it's funny when he was like where we're exploring our, mapping the DMT space. And I just, in my mind, picture this old school cartographer, you know, like making these maps. And I'm like, you know, it's like a multidimensional space. I don't even think we have the capacity to map these out. But I think it was more about, you know, seeing the reflection of ourselves in that space and potentially looking for answers about who and what we are in consciousness. I think is probably one of the goals, whether directly stated or otherwise.

You know, it's interesting how people see similar things in DMT states. And part of me always wondered, like even with ayahuasca. You know, like I did ayahuasca and I've done a couple times. And I remember the first time, like I knew what it was. I had the idea behind it. And so I saw like the condors and the acondas and stuff. But if I was completely devoid of any pre-priming for what I was going to see, would I still see that? And I don't know the answer to that.

but one could make the same thing about DMT. Like if you've read any of Terrence McKenna's books, you've heard the term machine elf, you're more likely to see a machine elf. Or does that defy that? And that's if you had me and I had never even spoke or read about this, and I did it, and then I'm seeing machine elves. Okay, well, that's an interesting pattern that you're seeing.

And what does that mean? Why are people seeing these same things? And are these entities just reflections of ourself, or are they separate, highly intellectual, complex, beings or entities you know what i mean like it's a very interesting thing like i've yeah did a very large dose of dmt before and like i very much interacted with something that was a profoundly complex highly intellectual thing that was almost brushing me off as i was like a fly and it was it was humbling it was wild and you you come out of that and you're like what the fuck like was

Was that a byproduct of my own consciousness? Or was I actually interacting with something that is literally separate from myself not existing in this reality and yet profoundly intelligent? And, you know, I think they're trying to answer those questions. However, they might be able to do that. I don't know. It's like the inner astronaut. You know, there's so much imagery on people going to outer space.

But like maybe inner space is where we find the aliens. Maybe inner space where we find the answer. It's like the term psychonaut, right? It's the same concept. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I used to travel like backpack a lot. Like backpack, you know, two months in West Africa and Southeast Asia and India and stuff. And like it was this pursuit of new experiences.

And I think I got to a point in my life where I'm like, you know, I've never looked inwards. I'm almost like seeking validation externally. You know what I'm. And then, you know, and now it's like, you know, the greatest adventures I've ever been on. been within myself. You know? That should be a bumper sticker. Right.

You'll free and use that, man. I don't know. You know, it is interesting to think about the way in which we seek out external validation, right? Like, have you,

I've noticed that in my life. Like, and it seems that when I find myself astray, it's because I'm seeking so much external validation. Oh, yeah. Well, and we, of course, we're like, we're a social mammal. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like if I was removed from the group back in the day, I would fucking die. You know what I mean? Like, we need to work as groups to survive. And I don't really think that's changed. Like, there's a reason why solitary confinement is considered torture in the gene. Right. Like, it's horrific. And so I think when we seek external validation, I think it's biological.

I think it's our innate. need and desire to be wanted and belonging to a group because that means survival. And one could argue that through like eons of generation and generation, the ones that were antisocial probably didn't really get all that far because you're more apt to be removed from the group and that group is survival. I can think of numerous times where I, you know, want external validation. And I like it. You know what I mean?

I like being validated externally. Who fucking doesn't? But at the end of the day, if that, if that's, if that's, you know, I mean, if that's your only mechanism, you know, then it's, you're flipping a coin here. You know what I mean? Like there's something to be said that if I need external validation, then more often than not, I have to change my behaviors or something about me to seek external validation. And the idea to me of like social media where one like, it's validation, 20 likes is a lot more validation. And you'll do a lot of things to get those. And more often than not, you're doing things that are not really reflective

of who and much you are. So that external validation, I think, more often not pulls you from who you are and turns you into something that you're not. I mean, sometimes on psychedelics or just meditating or just sitting in silence sometimes, you can come upon the idea that we're all one. And when I think about that, you know, when I think about like unity or, you know, being part of the whole or a thought in the mind of God, you know, it changes. my ideas about external validation because then you go, oh, I'm seeking, I'm seeking external

validation when I'm already part of the whole. So on some level, I think for me and other people that I know, when you're seeking external validation, that's the, you're disliking yourself a little bit. You know what I mean by that? Like, it's, oh, I totally do. Okay. It's, good, good. It's one of those things like, well, you know, I had a near-death experience in 2018. And I remember, coming out of that. Well, I... Let's talk about that. I can't just say that. Without explaining it. So I was, I do a lot of woodworking because I've always found it very cathartic. And I was doing this, it was wood etching. And you use basically a microwave transformer. You strip every possible safety feature from it.

And then you hook it up to one, 20 volts in your wall. And it pumps out like 12,000 bolts of DC current. And so I was like doing my thing. My buddy was there who had just happened to have taken to have taking a high bolted safety course like two weeks earlier, which was profoundly convenient. And I remember I was talking to him. And I was like mid-sentence and all of a sudden it arced off into my hand. And like it burned my finger off. And I had like third degree burns all over this hand. And, you know, it was almost like someone just flicked a switch and it was just incredible pain.

Like pain that didn't even make sense any longer. It was just over all encompassing. And I couldn't even think because the amount of it. of energy. And I remember at one point, like, forcing a thought. And it was like, I don't think I'm breathing. And then all of a sudden, I just felt like I was falling for like a really long time, but not fast, like a slow descent, which was weird. And then it was just like, just waking up in this place that I had always been. And I wasn't Adam. I wasn't anything. It was just this raw awareness of absolute contentment. And I remember like seeing spherically from a single point

outwards. And I say seeing, you know, people associate your eyes, but it was almost like, okay, a single point of awareness moving outwards. And it was like maybe outer space and like these gas clouds in the distance. It was like mostly just nothing. And I remember just existing. And it was perfect. Like just perfect. And time really didn't have any meaning. Nothing did. I just, I wasn't anything. It was just awareness. And then all of a sudden, this frequency started washing over me. gasoline on water and these fractal patterns moving. It was like this juxtopoxition of communication. It was just perfect.

And it was emotions, it was feelings. And there's this overwhelming sense of like, this is okay. And then I just sort of started feeling myself being pulled into pieces and just becoming the universe. It was like literally just every part of me which is merging with the universe. And then I started being electrocuted again, which in hindsight was me being defibrillated. And then all of a sudden I like snapped in. I'm like, I'm Adam, I'm in space. Something's not right.

And it was like this weird, not panic, but like, I know I'm dead. I'm like, oh, fuck. Like this is, you know, I feel like I lost my opportunity. And then I was like, you know, alone with myself for what seemed like a really long time. And then I started being electrocuted again. And then I think I vaguely felt myself being pulled or sucked or something along those lines. And then I woke up in an ICU bed, like almost immediately. afterwards. And I was just like, ah, I was in a coma for like eight hours after that too. So I like wake up,

but I'm looking around. And it was weird because I'm like, I like, I could have been gone for centuries. Like I, you know, like I remember like trying to touch my face. My hands were all bandaged and see if I had like a beard or something. Like I remember the first thing I asked. Like they extubated me and I was like, how long has it been? And they're like, oh, it's only been like nine hours. I'm like, wow. Like I would have thought it was forever. And it was funny, like, you know, how it was like being downgraded from like a supercomputer to like a Commodore 2000. You know, going from like 580P to like 16 bit. And it was like really disappointing.

I remember just sitting there. And after the, you know, the hugs and everyone's happy, I'm not brain dead. I remember like just touching myself and being like, what the, what is this? This skin suit, this really inconvenient bag of meat that breathes. Like I was so hyperware of breathing. I remember, like, peeing and being like, this is bullshit, man. And I remember, like, that lasted for like, like, over a month anyways. I remember, like, telling my wife at one point, I'm like, none of this shit is real.

And she was like, ah, and I'm like, no, like, it's fine, but this isn't real. You know what I mean? Like, this is the dream. Yeah. And that was, that was whatever real might be. But it also made me hyper aware of, like, the fact that in that space, you know, that's of that absolute contentment makes me aware of how biologically programmed we are to feel anxiety, to be happy, sad, horny, hungry, angry, you know, jealous.

All of these things seemingly are like biologically related. You know, and I mean like a as a means of experience. And in an absence of that, it was just perfect. Like it really was perfect to the core of whatever that might mean. And, you know, and I think that, you know, a lot of people ask me like, is that why you started doing psychedelics? And I'm like, actually, no, that was like right in the middle. It was, you know what I mean?

And it was a really interesting experience. But it was almost, you know, we talked about that notion of validating, but it was almost like, hey, man, that was a very personal experience. But it completely dovetail with all the other psychedelic experiences. And it's almost interesting to know, too, is that that was an endogenous DMT release. You know what I mean? Like recent research has been done at Michigan. you and they found that like any given time we have amounts of DMT in our brains that are equatable

to serotonin dopamine you know what I mean so like DMT is like a very powerful neurotransmitter existing in our brain that people just sort of kind of ignore you know what serotonin dopamine are the reasons why we feel and think and do these different things reward you know pathways and whereas dimethythotryptamine is presence in our brains and another research they were doing where they put rats in the cardiac arrest and do monitoring of this ribospinal fluid. And it was showing like a six-fold increase of dimethyl tryptamine

in the neural system during cardiac arrest. You know, so it's almost as if, like, I had my own little private, perfectly choreographed psychedelic experience when I died. And it was like, you know, a mix of five-meo-dm-M-T

and dimethal-trimine being produced in my brain. And there's an interesting arguments for why that is, you know, it's a neuroprotectant. Maybe that's just a mechanism to prevent, you know, neural death in an oxygen, you know, low-o-o-o-o-o-o-engine environment. But at the same time, it gives these profound experience of, like,

oneness and wholeness. And, you know, it's hard not to take away from that that we are just singular. But, you know, it's funny that from that experience, the one thing that I would draw out from that is that we're all just facets of an infinite complexity experiencing itself subjectively. you know to know thyself that there only is really one thing but life itself is just a mechanism to interact with itself to know itself you know and that stems back to that idea that you're talking about how you know seeking external validation in a way is seeking validation from oneself and it's like

yeah in a way you were just seeking validation from a bunch of really flawed semi-broken talking monkeys all running around yeah totally no Yeah, and it was a really cool experience. And, you know, it's funny about, oh, I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm like, no, it was awesome. Yeah. It scared a lot of people, but it's profound. That brings up this idea.

You know, like, when your kid falls and, like, wrecks their leg or their knee or their head, they get wrecked. They're bleeding and it looks bad. As a parent, like, the last thing you should do is be like, oh, because, like, when you put on the scary face, you know what I mean? Like that external validation makes the kids scared. And what I've learned is like that never goes away. And the same thing that you just brought up when people are like, oh my God, I'm sorry that happened to you.

Or like, you know, you quit your job or walk away from your job or something. Like, oh, I'm so sorry that happened. You're like, I'm not. Like that's the same thing in a way. It's like this external, the world looking at you like,

oh, I'm so sorry. And you're like, fuck, it's the greatest things ever happened to me. You know, people don't understand that in some way. It's weird to see other people's interpretation. of horrific events when for you it's not.

And you would think death would be. You know, oh, Jesus, Adam, I'm so sorry that happened. You're like, this greatest thing ever. Yeah. Those moments are fascinating. It was, you know, unfortunately, it was like my third best five MEO trip. But, you know, like, it was still. Like, it was, yeah, it was amazing.

But I know it's everything's so subjective, right? And we all, there's like social cues. And I need to mostly. likely this scenario would be damaging to you. So I'm going to give you a statement which anecdotally makes me recognize how scary this might have been. And that's, I get that. But you know, it's funny when you talk about like my daughter, she's crazy. She's up this. She's climbing up this. And I try and just let her be. And I'm like, hey, man, watch your feet. You're up like, you know, like three, four feet right now. It's going to hurt when you fall. And then every now and then she falls.

And I try, like my reaction was like, oh, sweet. I just want to go over and give her a hug. Yeah. But I'm almost like just very calm and be like, hey, you okay? Here, come give daddy a hug. Let's talk about, you know, watching where our feet are when we're climbing things. But you're right. Like, you know, if I'm like, oh, my God, in this massive emotional response.

Yeah. Because kids are always looking to you to mirror their behavior. That's all they do. Yeah. I don't know how to be. They need to learn from someone else. And it's really hard to. be a good role model.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want her hurt. You know, part of me would love to just keep her completely sheltered her entire life, but then she would be a shitty human. Yeah.

So, you know. I do know. It's interesting, too. I had a friend a while back that he took a really large dose. I mean, well, he took probably like 12 grams, which was a pretty big dose.

Yeah. And then the next day, he had had a heart attack. And I, the, he was wiped out, man. He was dead for like almost 12 minutes in the,

The paramedics came and they were shocked. They shocked him like four or five times. They finally brought him back like on the fifth time. Took him to the hospital, put him in a coma for like three days. And like they were preparing his family. Like, you know, look, people don't come out of this, man. You know, he's going to, if he does come out, which he probably won't, he's going to be, he's going to be gone. Yeah.

And he came back, like full recovery. He's still got like some guilt and stuff like that. But like, and then I couldn't help but think. Like I recently talked to someone about psychedella or psilocybin being a neuroprotective. And all the doctors were like, I don't know how this happened. And you should be dead by all accounts. And for him, he's like, you know what it was, George? He's like, it was that big dose I took.

That's what saved my life. He's like, you know, I had these crazy. And he explained his DMT trip while he was in that state. But I don't know of any particular like medical experiments or anything that have been done that talk about psychedelics. probably prolonging brain function. I know there's tons of stuff on neuroplasticity, on, you know, dendrite strains and stuff. There's research done with NNDMT giving to people that host CVA, so like strokes. So you've had a stroke, and then they give you intravenous, low-dose drip of dimethylptamine

and shows incredible recovery. I didn't know that. So, you know, and you could look at that from respect. I'm like, okay, well, if you were taking it before you had some sort of experience that was causing global neural hypoxia, would that reduce the overall? damage. Okay, fair enough. No one's really done that study yet because, A, you would have to. Okay, listen, just calm down. We're going to induce a stroke and we'll see what happens. But first we'll give you this. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's difficult too because, A, they're

scheduled substances. It's very difficult to do any research on them, hence by design. And then now we're entering an age where, you know, the reins are being loosened a little bit. But then again, too, there's ethic components to this because, you know, to do that study. okay, you can do it on rats. And rats are not unreasonable in all this to human brain function. Like, we're both mammals, but it's not the same thing. You know, rats and humans are not the same, but they're close enough that you can draw conclusions to then go on human trials.

But it's, you know, interesting. It's like, you know, my dad was diagnosed with dementia four years ago, maybe. And it was intense. Like, you know, I think we're just, you know, chalking up, ah, he's old, no big deal. And, you know, he's getting forgetful. And then it just, it really doubled down over the course of, two months where, you know, he was in my shop and he was asking me like, like 25 times in 20 minutes, what type of wood I was working on. I'm like, dude, it's fucking Elm. Like, are you okay? And my mom took

him in, Jack's psychiatrist, and they basically gave him the diagnosis of like classic dementia, you know, pet scan, blood work, everything. And they were basically like, we know he's probably going to be requiring long term care in six months to a year, the way he's progressing. And so, you know, I talk to my mom. She's a very educated human. And I'm just like, listen, here's the research for 5MEO DMT. And here's the research for psilocybin. Like, there's no other effective treatment.

Everything is just more just delaying symptoms like aerosept. And, you know, there's all these anecdotal hyperbaric chambers and different things. And so she was like, fine. You know, like there's nothing to lose here. So I put them on like two milligrams of 5MEO DMT succinate, which is a salt, which absorbs hemocosome membrane. brains in a metered nasal spray and 100 milligrams of psilocybin a day. And both of which are sub-threshold for a psychedelic experience.

And within like four months, he was like, you know, actually I came over and I heard him playing guitar in the basement. I come down, he's like, he's doing like blues riffs. I'm like, dude, I'm like, how are you doing? And he just, he just came back. Like, you know, it's cognitive test. It went from like 55 to 82 over the course of six months. and he gets cognitive tests every six months

and they're still, they didn't go up with that same significance as initially, but they keep going up. You know, a couple points here and there, a couple points here and there. And, you know,

you talk about the idea of a reduction in your own inflammation and neuroplasticity and neurogenesis and all these things. And like, I can't think of a better example of that, anecdotally perhaps. But shit, like,

you know, he's holding his own. He is probably what he was like 10 years ago, cognitively. That's so awesome. Yeah, it is. And it's unfortunate that by the time any research actually gets past all the hurdles and then turns into a compound that can be distributed to the public, that's going to be like 15 years.

You know, it's a lot of people are going to die and a lot of family members are going to have to deal with that slow decline of cognition and how horrific that is being on, you know, the other side of it. how come why is that story not in Rolling Stone? You know what I mean? Like, why is that story not all over like the New York Times or? I think people are hesitant.

You think so? You know, I really do. I think people are hesitant, you know, for ideas of saying something that's sensational or, you know, and it which is seems counterintuitive to what the news media is anymore. Just one fucking ridiculous thing after the next relicit emotion. responses in people but I don't think it's I don't think it's sensational enough I think you know like it's it's been in a couple different articles I've been interviewed because like I damn near screaming this on a mountain top being like hey

you know someone take this up and do something with it and there's a variety of companies that are there's some in Florida there's some in Europe who are looking at creating non psychedelic unogalous compounds to treat neurogenitive conditions and fine but that's still like decades you know away from being a product that can be administered to people. You know, like even on my podcast, I've talked about it a couple of times, and people will message me and being like, hey, I'm doing what you're doing, what you did for your dad,

and I'm noticing positive results in my loved one. And I'm like, you know, what, good for you. You know, and I know a lot of people will be like, oh, microdosing, 5H2A receptors and so forth. And like, you know, I'll say my dad's at echocardiograms every six months as well, and there's been no valve hypertrophy, no abnormalities with his heart. And so whether that is him specifically with his biology or that the concerns of valve hypertrophy are, well, I think the conservative valve hypertrophy was based off of a weight loss medication combination from the 70s where a bunch of obese women took it for a period of time. And then they all, several of them died of, you know, valve failure. And I think that concern of having these receptors innervated. But this compound was a very significant innervation of them. And I think that concern of having these receptors innervated. But this compound was a very significant innervation of them. And I think that concern about heart problems with that stems from that.

And I'm certainly not going to suggest that isn't or is a realistic concern. But at the very least, it hasn't been in 100 milligram of dried mushroom material in my father's case. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about the possibilities of what could be if we had the, you know, it's interesting how medicine moves. But that's a whole other, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. At a snail's pace, you mean? Yeah, unless there's a pandemic. Then we can pass anything. And then you can pump shit out over time.

But again, that comes down to it. It's you weigh the pros and cons of a situation versus overall liability. And you have people deciding ethics who may or may not feel that empowering psychedelics is good or not good. You know what I mean? It's an interesting thing. Like everything is so profoundly complex. And everything is just weighing the pros and cons. of how many people are re-endangering versus doing this or not doing this.

And, you know, I would argue with psychedelics, the biggest hang-up is the fact that they're scheduled substances. You know, if they were never scheduled, well, this conversation will be very different. We probably wouldn't be having this conversation because the psychedelic Renaissance would have taken off in the 60s. You know, we have all kinds of medical treatments for neurogenital conditions and, you know, adjuncts of psychiatry, all these different things, but that's not that. the case and so here we all are it just seems on some level like the science of it seems like an

exercise in futility you know i was like the level of complexity to understand what's happening inside the brain is nobody knows like it's a it's a fucking guess like they're guessing what's happening in there but yet they're going to spend millions maybe billions of dollars trying to figure out hey is there something else besides the 5h2a over like we don't know but we do know it works but we don't know what's happening for the mechanism of action. Like that just seems like, I don't know. I know, man, like I, you know, the rate of suicide and first responders and veteran communities. And, you know, we have something that is effective.

Yeah. You know, something to use. And like, and there's groups that are treating veterans with Iboga and 5MEODMT and people who are risking their freedom, their medical licenses to help other people. And it's like, you know, I think those people are heroes personally. But at the same time, it's almost, I want to say nauseating that, you know, the bureaucracy, this massive, massive machine that takes anything and makes it profoundly complicated, more so that it needs to be, is sort of grinding their heels on this. Like in Canada, like, you know, you can get psilocybin and MDMA prescribed to you

through the federal government. You know, kind of like Australia, but, You know, we're where Australia were a couple years ago, where I can apply to the special access program and say, with my doctor, who says that Adam needs psilocybin because he has treatment resistant depression. Or he has PTSD and needs MDMA. And that will get granted within a period of time, but it's not super accessible. It's really inconvenient. But yet it's like, okay, so we've been using these things. There is surprisingly a large amount of research on psilocybin.

and yet there still is this massive hangup over it. And again, you know, with politics, I'm like, I think the government's, you know, testing the water to see, like, if we legalize psychedelics, is there going to be a public backlash that might be prohibitive of us being reelected? Is this going to look good on us? And, you know, sometimes I feel like a lot of political parties are show up late to what society actually thinks. But we're coming up to another federal election, a federal election in 2024. And I would be surprised if psychedelic, psychedelics didn't come up. You know, like we're in the middle of one of the largest mental health crises. I would say the world's ever seen, you know, opioid addiction and just general absence of resources or effective means of treating people.

You know, like just the idea that, okay, you're upset. Here's some medications to tread water because it turns out we don't have the time, reasons, or money to effectively treat your issues. So here's a couple tools that you can do on your own to try and deaccelerate your anxiety or your PTSD. And it's like, okay, well, here's this other range of compounds that if taken in a supervised environment with people who, you know, are trained to facilitate, you can work through decades of traumas and not just tread water, but to, you know, do lapse of the pool. But again, too, right? Like it's, I know, I know that I want to see that. And I know it makes me angry that it's not there. Well, angry is a bold statement.

I find it vaguely funny and ironic that these things exist, but yet are not being accepted. But again, too, you're seeing bipartisan support, you know, in the American political system where you have Republicans, Democrats, uniting to try and find treatments for veterans. And I think once it's established as a treatment for veterans, you're going to see this trickle in effect for other people. And they're saying that 2025 is going to be the year that MDMA is going to be federally legal as per maps. But who knows? You know, CBD is still federally legal as far as I know. So what the fuck? Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts on the psilocybin isn't a panacea statement? I honestly, I think it is. But again, too, it's how you look at it. Okay. Break that down for us. Okay, so like if modern Western medicine is designed around, you know, I have high cholesterol, I'm going to take a pill. I can still eat bacon. I'm still going to not exercise.

But I have this pill that allows me to not change any aspect of my life. I have high blood pressure. I have this. I have that. I just take a pill. I don't have to change any part of my life. And yet I can continue behaving in the way that I want to behave. Whereas psilocybin, that is not psilocybin at all.

Like psilocybin is work. you need to look at yourself, you know, in the fun house mirrors and really get to the bottom of who and what you are. It's not a one and you're done. Well, for some people, perhaps you might be able to get what you need. But like for me, it's been a very long journey of unraveling myself. You know, like, I hate to use the onion metaphor because I don't know. I just don't like it. But yeah, man, like it's layers upon layers of this profoundly complex emotional integration with oneself.

And you're unraveling that. Is it a panseia in this sense? of I don't really know of any other way to do that. Perhaps a lifetime of dedicated meditation might be the only thing equatable. You know, yeah, but I think it's the perspective in what you look at it. If the public perception is that I'm going to take

a couple grams of mushrooms and all my problems are gone, well, then no, it's not a pancya based on the perception of how you think it's going to work. But if you acknowledge that this is not just an anti-hypertensive medication that you just take and go about your business, this is like, you know, you're being vulnerable with yourself.

And there's something profoundly scary about that. You know, like, I can be vulnerable with any number of people and if they reject me, I'm like, fuck it, I walk away. And I bury that emotion. Yeah. But when you're vulnerable with yourself, you really have nowhere to run.

You know what I mean? Like you're in this with yourself. You're like, yeah, okay, man. Like, let's take a couple deep breaths and let's get into this. And it's scary. You know, some of the most beautiful experience I've ever had on psychedelics, but also some of the most terrifyingly scary experiences of, like, confronting these deep-seated fears and notions of existence and the existential crisis of life.

You know, it's, so Pansilla, yes, based on perspective. Yeah, I kind of wish, like, we could change the terminology around it. Like, if we could call mushrooms, like, exogenous neurotransmitters, I think that would help out a lot. You know, because it, on some level, it seems to me to be doing similar things.

Like, you just be, first off, it rolls off the tongue really nice. E&Ts, boom. Problems. Yeah,

it's like, all right. Get to me and T's in you. Yeah, that sounds so, it sounds so smooth. Words are always loaded, right?

Of course. Like, you know, the whole sticks and stones kind of concept. And like, fair enough. But like,

no, words have very significant meaning that, that, is generational to some extent. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like the stigma surrounding the words used to describe psychedotic experiences can list it fear.

It can elicit, you know, remitism of prohibition and criminality. And that's a hard thing to get rid of. You know, but again, too, it stems back to the fact that like, you know, it's going to take a while to wash away criminalization and prohibition of these substances. You know, it's just how we are as a species. you know you can't just change us overnight right and i say us as a collective whole like it takes time for people to be convinced subconsciously of something and change the narrative and change the meaning behind words and you know like god the term god it's it's a loaded statement it's a loaded word you know people think of very specific things you know me when i think of the word god i

think of just this infinite complexity most people think of a bearded sky daddy You know, and that's, that's the integral meaning behind words that it just exists in a culture, you know. Yeah, I do. Adam, fascinating, man. I know you got to pick up your daughter, man. Yeah. This went way too fast, man. You got to come back.

We've got to have some more conversations. I really enjoyed the conversation. You're really a fun person to talk to. And everybody listening to this, if you enjoyed this, go check out Adam Tapp's podcast where he talks to some of the most unique, amazing people out there. And I can't recommend it enough. But before I let you go, Adam, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Tapped into psychedelics is my podcast.

And it's on like Spotify, Apple, whatever, just look for it. It'll probably show up. And oddly enough, like, you know, we started that avail scientific and then we did a subcompany called Unveiled Science, Clever. And we're actually working right now. We have approval from the Thai government through a partner in Thailand to do clinical trials in Thailand for microdosing. And I kind of want to do one on, you know, everything, unfortunately, like, you know, with the easiest path to research is off the shoulders of other people.

And there's so much research out there about tryptamine psychedelics and depression and anxiety. And there's very limited information on neural regeneration. And so we're kind of working towards doing the clinical trials on Alzheimer's and dementia with psilocybin. And, And it's, I don't know, I'm super, it kind of is. You know what I mean? And it's one of those things. We're just like, you know, and that will, would validate a lot of the things that people are experiencing when they're self-medicated or medicating their family members. And it's like, yeah, man, you know, I've been trying to get people to start doing research on this and talking to people at psychedelic conferences.

And people are, but they're also limited. Sure. by the system that is the FDA and health Canada. I'm not suggesting that's necessarily bad, but it's one check after, another check after another check after another check after another check. And the Thai government, they're very enthusiastic about this, about, you know, they have an aging population. You know, let's be realistic, the entire world is aging very, very fast right now.

And, you know, baby boomers and all these people, they're going to be going into this. And there's no effective treatment. And I think the ties are very on that. and I think they want to move forward with this as well. So that's something that's pretty exciting as well. Man, that's super exciting. Yeah.

Well, fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen, hang on briefly afterwards, Adam. But ladies and gentlemen, I hope you had as much fun as we did. Go check out the Taptin podcast. Check out Adam. That's all we got for today. Aloha.