TrueLife - Doug Lynam - Integration, The Enneagram, & Stacking Psychedelics,

Episode Date: September 6, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Douglas LynamA warrior who became a monk.A monk who became a teacher.A teacher who became a guide through the labyrinth of money.But these are only shadows of the truth.Doug Lynam is the paradox incarnate, forged in war, dissolved in silence, resurrected through numbers.He has seen the void behind wealth, the shimmering illusion of value, the theater of greed where souls are sold by the pound.And instead of fleeing, he stepped deeper, to tame the money monster, to bind the demon in gold chains, to show us that currency is nothing but a mirror of consciousness.For money is not paper, not power, not chains.It is a lie so powerful it became real.A god conjured in the marketplace.A scripture written in blood and ink.And when its mask falls away, the forbidden truth is revealed:there is no monster, no treasure, no prison of wealth.There is only you,infinite, ungovernable,the living currency of the universe.Doug Lynam One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphene. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope your day is going beautiful. Hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds is singing. Hope the wind is at your back.

Ladies and gentlemen, Douglas Lynum, a warrior who became a monk, a monk who became a teacher and a teacher who became a guide through the labyrinth of money. But these are only shadows of the truth. Doug Lynum is the paradox incarnate, forged in war, dissolved in silence, resurrected through numbers. He has seen the void behind wealth, the shimmering illusion of value, the theater of greed where souls are sold by the pound. And instead of fleeing, he stepped deeper to tame the money, monster, to bind the demon in gold chains, to show us that currency is nothing but a mirror of consciousness. Doug Linum, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm great, George. It's an honor to be here. So excited to be on your show.

Yeah, man. I'm stoked you're here. You've had an incredible journey from from service member, from Marine to Monk to Money Manager to psychedelics. Like, that's a, that's a heck of a journey. It's been a wild ride. It has been a wild ride. What? Did it feel like three lifetimes, Doug? Like, you've lived like three completely different personas. Maybe you could tell me what that's like, man.

Well, you know, it's my life. So I don't know what it's like to be anything else. I look at my resume and I'm sort of shocked sometimes. I'm going, oh, did I really do all that? Is it really even, you know, maybe it's just my ADHD, you know, because he bouncing around into different, I just get bored and got to try many things and maybe I'm just an explorer and adventure who wants, just can't, can't seem to settle in. But for whatever reason, I just seem to be finding all these different cool tracks of life.

And yeah, it's been a fun ride. I have to say, it's been a hell of an adventure. Yeah, it sounds like you. Shout out to Joshua Moyer. Joshua Moore, I love you, man. How's the new music going? Say, what's up to Josh? So let's talk about the first transition from Marine to Monk.

Like that is two radically different ideas of like going out and conquering or going out and serving and then maybe serving in a different capacity. Tell me about that transition. Well, I think, I mean, I guess part of it was, you know, why I went to the Marines in the first place was mostly to try to impress my father and prove I was a manly man who could do manly things. And, you know, it didn't really work. You know, he didn't seem to, didn't seem to budge the needle on that front. So at that point, I realized I was probably, you know, didn't need to spend. spend my career projecting my anger issues on strangers around the world and blowing people up. I realized that high explosives and unresolved anger issues were a bad combination.

So maybe I needed to find a different life choice. And I was going to quit the Marines, what would be a higher calling in my mind? Like what would if I'm going to sort of, you know, I loved, I love the Marines in many ways. I love the camaraderie, the support, the sense of service. But where can I get the same, the discipline? Where could I get all the positives of the Marines without so much the negatives about the killing people part. And so I had a mentor, you know, who I always had a, and I wasn't raised in a spiritual

house. I was raised in a kind of, I wouldn't say, kind of an anti-spiritual household. So I always had this deep philosophical and spiritual searching that I was doing. And so I wanted to figure out the meaning of life and why are we here and what's it all about. So I did my undergraduate in like philosophy and mathematics and I went to this funky little liberal art school called St. John's College in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and they have a campus in Annapolis, Maryland as well. But it's called a great book school, and you basically study the entire canon of Western civilization from beginning and end from original source text.

And I figured, well, maybe all these great minds, if I read all these great minds, they'll tell me what life is all about. And it turns out they all have a different opinion, and it's just kind of as jumble in your head. It helped a lot of ways. It gave me a great training academically, but, and then I kind of went to the Marines to kind of round things out with sort of the more visceral physical experience. But then I, the monastery was sort of like, I didn't have any faith going into it. I went looking for God. I thought if I'm going to find God or find the meaning of life, where better to do it than

in a contemplative monastery. So I thought I'd give it a shot for a few years, kind of like a grad school, go try it out. And then it actually ended up being a 20-year adventure, some good, some bad. And so that's kind of the transition. That's kind of why I went into the monastery. man 20 years in a monastery like what what does that mean like what do you do in the monastery are you are you serving other people are you reading are you having conversations with other people are you all the above and it was a teaching order so i was i was i was teaching in a prestigious private school

i was the head of the mathematics department there and so there's you got a job so there's that and then you've got all the monastic services and community duties so there's that is a kind of I always have two full-time jobs. So it's actually quite busy. Ironically, I feel like I have more time for contemplation now that I'm out of the monastery than I was in because you're just so, you're, you know, there's a lot of caretaking. A lot of the monks were older and needed a lot of physical care. And so there's a lot of that going on as well.

But the conversations were fantastic. Lots of those, definitely deep dives into all the world. And, you know, we were a Catholic Benedictine order. But we were very open and all the brothers had advanced degrees and something. And so, you know, some of them had degrees in comparative religions and philosophy, theology. And so I got a really good exposure to, you know, all the different. We were very open and theologically, I would say, as a community and definitely pulled from different world traditions and practices. And even our community got to spend a summer in India and an ashram there.

and that was really eye-opening and quite a profound experience. And so I got a good, well-rounded theological and philosophical training there as well, and I really enjoyed it. Man, I can't imagine, like, maybe because I've never, this is not my experience, I haven't lived it, but it sounds like you really get a good foundation for morality or in spirituality and the understanding of relationships on some level. It must have been, how does that then transfer into money? Then you move into like a money manager.

Like that seems like the complete opposite side of like the monastic side. Like how do the, what's the relationship between those two? All right. Well, that's a bit of a story. Okay. So part of the reason for joining the monastery was to escape the world of money and materials forever. I kind of, you know, I also joined the monastery for good reasons,

but also was a great way to annoy my parents. It really flabbergasted them. I grew up in a fairly affluent household where money was sort of the... But I would say money got weaponized in a way. When my parents divorced when I was about seven, it became the way... The tool that my parents used to get back at each other,

you know, ask your mom for something. She'd say, you'd say, go ask your dad. He's got all the money. He was a CEO of a chemical company. He was a chemical engineer. And then I'd ask my dad. He'd say, well, go ask your mom.

She gets all my money. because I gave her all the Alamone and child support. And you're like, well, so in a weird way, I would look at my middle class friends and they'd have a lot more stuff than I did because their parents were just a little more, you know, there wasn't this fight over stuff all the time. So it was partly an act of rebellion to join the monastery as well,

but in an ironic twist of fate, about three years after I joined, the community went bankrupt because there was all these, what I call money monsters, all these issues, some just legacy of debt and deferred maintenance, health care costs, lots of things that just drove. Essentially, there was more money going out than going in. And that put us in a really awkward plot.

And by an ironic twist of fate, the responsibility for fixing that problem fell into my shoulders only because no one else wanted to do it. And I was of young and naive and I was like, oh boy, throw me in coach. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll fix this. I'll see the hero and whatever. So my ego got involved with that a little bit, but I turned out I was, you know,

and I was financially illiterate, which was, I went out in the world knowing nothing about money, even though my mom was a CPA, my dad was a CEO. It was like money. Talking about money in my family was harder than talking about sex. Like it was the taboo topic that nobody wanted to deal with. So I knew nothing. And so I had to sort of self-educate myself on this, on the subject to figure it out. It took me a couple years, about two and a half years, to kind of pull the community through those

problems. And fast forward, there's so many steps to this. And I want to get to some other topics. But the punchline is I was then, because I was chairing the mathematics department, I decided, boy, we should really teach kids this stuff. Like, this is a really important topic that it's a shame that we send so many people out in the world financially illiterate. And so I started teaching econ and personal finances an elective. It became a very popular course. Fast forward a few years. One day for a class project, I opened up the school retirement plan to show the kids how it worked and found out it was a complete train wreck. And then I went looking for a company that could do a better job and couldn't find one. And then I realized it was an endemic problem across the country. So I thought, well, here's a billion dollar pain point.

Maybe I could solve this thing for my friends, for myself, for my community, my school, and then for, you know, other teachers around the country. And so I want, and this is bad shit crazy, but I launched my own investment advisory firm from inside a monastery. I did all the training, got all the licensures, did all the things, got a client. And then I realized, hey, I like this better than monastery work in a way. I wanted, I was done. I was, I was cook. Stick a fork. The monastery at that point had gotten a little bit dysfunctional as communities can.

And monasteries are closing left or right across the country. They're just not viable. really people aren't joining and we the age demographic of our community gotten so old that it was impossible to bring new people in and so i realized that this was a dying order and so um i made the transition out and uh i jumped ship uh took my little company and i merged it with a larger firm called longview asset management in santa fe and then that took off my my investment career and oh here's the key point um right when i did this is the the great stroke of luck right when i did this the New York Times came out with a six month, six piece.

Every month they came out with a big expose on the problem of teacher and retirement plans across the country, what are called four or three Bs for nonprofits. And they were pointing out all the problems I was running into and the very reasons why it started my company. And so I reached out to them on Facebook, a guy named Ron Lieber at the New York Times, who's the financial columnist there, and told him what I was doing. And he got excited, flew out to Santa Fe too. weeks later and did a big piece on me that hit the front page of the New York Times

business section went viral. I got a two-book deal from Harper Collins out of that and it really took my career in a great direction. And so now I'm an author. So I took a buyout from Long View about a year ago to work on this new book called Taming Your Money Monster, nine paths to money mastery with the any gram, which hopefully we can get into a little bit in time to psychedelics. But so that's the, that's the story in a nutshell. It's so relevant. I think it's important to get to see where you've been to know what you're working on now. Like what is the integram? Maybe you can tell us what that is.

Yeah. So it's a robust personality system. And I really, what I'm really excited about in my new book is I've really grounded it, grounded it in neurobiology and developmental psychology. So it's, it has somewhat of a reputation of being a bit in the woo-woo space, which I'm sure your listeners won't mind. But really, really, basically what it says. says is that there's only so many ways you can design ego. Like you can, just like there's only so many ways you can design a car. Like there's infinite variety of cars and the car you drive is very unique.

You could find yours in the parking lot, no problem. But just like there's styles of cars, there's styles of egos. And if you don't fit these certain patterns, you're basically not roadworthy. It doesn't work. And so what we've discovered from the neurobiology is that there's, so NEM means nine in Greek and gram means drawn. So anagram just means nine things drawn. It's these these nine archetypal personalities and we draw them on a circle typically, kind of like a pie chart if you think of it like that. And there's infinite variety inside so each of those types. But it basically tells you what were

your ego defenses that you developed in childhood to help you navigate reality and allow your consciousness to develop and to form. So, and I can go into the technical parts of that if you'd like, maybe, but that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, but there's a lot more to it than that, of course. Yeah, it's awesome, man. Break it down. It, it kind of sounds youngian to me when I start thinking about different archetypes and stuff like that. Very, so I use Jungian psychology throughout my book. I'm a big fan of Young. And so I actually think I'm almost proud of in my book as I've really come up with a Jungian understanding of the shadow structure for each of the nine archetypes of personality.

So we talk about the shadow, but what does your shadow look like in specific detail? And how do you know what it is and what are the steps to overcoming it? So each of the nine types has a unique shadow. a unique core fear that we developed in childhood. And then an ego defense structure to protect us from that core fear. And then a path of growth and development to enlightenment. So like each of us, we talk about enlightenment.

So we throw that word around, but it turns out it's not the same path for all of us. We each have different sort of virtues and vices that we struggle with. And the ending up will tell you exactly what those are. And then I've created these really cool ego maps that will tell you. kind of what's the step-by-step process you need to go through what was a step-by-step process developed your ego and then what are you what's the step-by-step process to come to your your healthiest expression of that ego yeah i'm working with um i know some there's an incredible friend of mine named jennifer love and her and i were having a similar conversation it talks about

your core wound is actually your gift and it sounds something like that's that's sort of beginning to it sounds like those two things are kind of dovetailing on something level but how do you like what what parameters do you need to like figure out your anagram like you got to do some real deep work to figure out your core one you got to be pretty honest you got to get the shadow down you got to get the defenses down but break it down for us all right well so here's how here's how the endgame works is it's kind of like this is imagine when you were born umbilical cord that was cut and that physically separated you from your mother but you immediately develop what i call a psychological umbilical cord to your caregivers and because you're you're you're

your ego is then codependent on your caregivers in childhood because they got to do all driving for you because they you know you're helpless and defenseless so you have this egoic codependency that develops but that psychological umbilical cord also has to be cut in order for you do what we call individuate and differentiate from your caregivers and from the rest of reality your siblings and everything around you and so what we know now from the neurobiology is there's only three ways to cut that psychological umbilical cord and it has to be done with the sharpest negative emotions because positive emotions will just reinforce that connection to your caregivers. And so in the limbic system of all mammals, and this is in mice and rats and dogs and cats,

all mammals have three core negative emotional circuitries. And that's anger, sadness, and fear. And sadness is sometimes called shame in the enneagram. And they're kind of interchangeable. But it's technically the sadness circuitry that it's running off of. And so the question to determine in your Enneagram type is like, well, which of those three, we all get all three of those negative emotions in childhood, but you got, we got one of them more than the others. And it was predominantly how the nose that you got were delivered to you. Like, no, don't touch the hot stove. Don't kick the dog. Don't throw your food on the floor. Don't soil your pant. All these nose that we get are they come at us, are sort of negative? And how were they delivered? Were they delivered with

more anger, with more shame, or sad, or more feet? and that gives us what we call these three, so if you think of a circle, just break it into three chunks and those are all triads of the enneagram. And then we could take those three, those three negative emotions, they can only be processed in one of three ways. So we can either get that pain and we can internalize it, directing it towards ourselves like an emotional wedgy, or you can externalize it, like kind of having a food fight with the world. Or you can have both, you can have both that internal and externalize it. And so that's why there's nine core archetypes in the anagrams. That gives us the nine personalities. And then each one develops a core deepest fear.

And then that kind of sets the ball in motion for the rest of your ego development structure. Let me give you an example. Let me just bring so let's make this concrete. So I'm what's called a type three on the anagram. So I'm in the shame or sadness triad. And so what that means is, is for me is I have this internalized shame, which means I feel a sort of sadness or shame about how I perceive myself. And then I have an externalized shame or sadness, which means I feel this shame or grief

about how I think others perceive me. That's my core wound. And then what that does is it creates the greatest fear for a type three, which is feeling worthless. And so this sense of not having any value or place, in the world. And so what that does is it creates type three is called the achiever. Now I call them the race car. I give them car names. I think it's helpful because what that means is type three is there's always racing towards the next goal or always trying to achieve something like win the race, run the

marathon, start the company, write the book, all these different personas I've had in my life of trying to achieve something in order to win validation and approval from the world around me. So so threes are often called one of the hallmarks of a three is that we have, we're expert mask changers. We'll sort of shift our persona to fit whoever we're in front of to try to impress them to win that validation and approval from the world around us. So we're always running towards that finish line. But the problem is we tend to leave our authentic selves in the dust. So we tend not to know who we really are at our deepest level because we're so busy

performing for others. we lose touch with our true authentic nature. And so I could walk you through the ego map for the three if you want, or we could talk about other types. But that gives you a little quick taste of what one type is like, the type three is like. And then each of them have a different flavor of what their fear is, and that changes how the lens to which they perceive all of reality.

We're all seeing the world from a different lens, but what is that lens? And the Ingram tells you what it is? It sounds like an evolution of awareness. Like when you become aware of something, like you can't unsee it. And it sounds to me like the type three, like that resonates with me quite a bit. And, you know, once you become aware of it, I guess that's sort of the first step into battling it. But what do you do with the integrat?

Maybe you can walk us through of it. Like, what do you do? Is it just becoming aware of it that allows you to change the habits that change the lens or maybe cleaning the lens? Exactly. It can't solve a problem that it don't know exists. Right. So awareness is the first step, but the actual process to, you know, to healing those wounds and becoming your most authentic and healthest expression of your type, it's a lifelong journey. It is the spiritual adventure. And so what I really have come to believe is that the Enneagram is the underlying code behind all world religions. It's the it's the operating system that they're all resting on top of. We may have different theologies and different expressions and different practices. But, Essentially, every world religion is, if you think of them as different apps on a cosmic smartphone, the underlying code really is the Enigram.

It's telling you what is your spiritual adventure that you need to go on, kind of your hero's journey, you know, to really become, you know, the most decent, loving, kind, compassionate person that you can become. For me, like, maybe I'm super naive in that. Like, I want to believe everybody is their own individual and they're unique. But if you really look at nature, We kind of fall into these ideas. Like we are kind of categorized. You know, you can probably find yourself in like, okay, I belong to the tree family.

I belong to the water family. You know, and if you do look at those different religions, you see the different signs, have different things attributed to them. So it blows my mind to think, like, yeah. Does it take away from the individuality of it? Not all because inside any kind of type, there's an variety. So you have to think about like a fractal, if you know what a fractal is. Of course.

So it's like, it's like a fractal. and we're just touching the top layer of the antigarum fractal here. It's the top layer and there's layers and layers and layers. And it goes down infinitely. And so there's still just like your car is unique. You can customize it. You can trick it out. You can change the muffler.

You can change the seeds. You can change the stair. There's all these things you can do to customize your car. But the chassis is still pretty much set. That's the thing that what's the chassis and engine? Right. What's the engine and chassis of this vehicle you're driving in? Those things seem to be pretty fixed.

Yeah, I guess it's important to know. Am I an off-road vehicle? Am I a sports car? Like, what am I? Then once you figure that out, okay, I can get, I should get on the auto bond or I should go off-roading. Exactly. And if you're driving a Hummer, you don't want to try to park it in a compact spot, right? And if you've got to, you know, if you're driving a family sedan, it's probably not good for off-roading.

So it really does tell you kind of what your strengths and weaknesses are. And then as you point out, your greatest weakness, if you, when you heal it, becomes your greatest strength. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Where does psychedelics fit into this? Both two individuals that love psychedelics. Like I can already see a few branches coming off of it, but let me hear your thoughts. Well, I mean, I didn't take the Antigram seriously until I started my psychedelic explorations. I thought it was sort of in the woo-woo space.

I was like, yeah, whatever. I'm a twin, and so I've always had a hard time with astrology, although I know people find it very meaningful and I don't want to put it down. But I'm sort of skeptical of these systems. and it was really on 5MEO DMT was the one that really opened my eyes to my own personality and struggles but then what I noticed and this is where the Enneagram is so helpful is it can predict the flavor of your psychedelic experiences and so what I would notice is that when people's egos were dissolved so for those of you who are familiar with 5MEO it's called the god molecule or the toad or has a bunch of different names, nicknames for it.

I like the God molecule. But it's a very short, powerful, about 20-minute experience that reliably produces complete ego dissolution. And what I noticed is that when people were on their 5-Meo experience, particularly the first one, the thing that when people have a hard time on 5MEO, typically what happens is what I was seeing is that the hardest thing for them to let go of. was their identity with their trauma that created their Enneagram type. And then when they have that breakthrough experience, it could be positive or negative,

but hopefully it's positive, that then what they would often experience was, was their greatest hope or the pinnacle of what the, the Antigar would predict the flavor of the challenges they would have and the flavor of the breakthrough experience very, very reliably. And then I noticed it on all psychedelics, in fact, that there tends to be because your personality has, the name tells you what your greatest fear is, and it tells you what your greatest hope is.

And so then your journey can, the individual imagery, the individuals, what metaphors that are coming up are going to be unique to you, but the flavor of it is very reliably predicted by the anagram. And then I thought, oh my gosh, that now I have some empirical in front of me, even though it's anecdotal evidence, that this thing is real and that it really worked. It worked for me and it was working for others.

And so then it gave me the courage to trust it more and go deep, more deeply into it. And then my book really reinvents the integrm in some key ways to bring it a little more up to date and make it a little more accessible to people. But that's how I discovered the connection between the Antigram and Psychedelics. And then after that, and after I was writing this new book,

again, my background is finance. So I was putting the Antigram towards the world of finance and money in my book, Taming Your Money Monster. But what was really this mind, just blew my mind, was to realize that all of the pioneers in the Enneagram were all psychonauts. They were hardcore psychedelic explorers. And so the Antigram has always been with us trying to figure out who had discovered it, invented it.

It's like trying to figure out who discovered mathematics. Like it's, you could find traces of it in ancient Greek texts and the Iliad and the Odyssey. and anywhere you want to look because it's always been there, but there was really two pioneers in the 20th century, Oscar Chazzo and Claudio Noronho were these, they were sort of the Galileo and Newton of the Enneagram. They really took it and made it the robust personality system that it is today. And both of them were very deep, second-a-explorers

of working with a whole variety of substances. But particularly Claudia Norano, He's sort of the Newton. He's the big name. And what's important about Claudia Narano, he's a doc, he's an MD, a psychiatrist. And not only did he pioneer the antigram, but he had the first psychedelic, one of the first psychedelic assisted therapy clinics in South America and was a close friend and partner with Alexander Shulgin, who I'm sure maybe you know that name, who was the chemist who synthesized about 100 different novel psychoactive compounds, including MDMA, 2CB, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And so basically what was happening is Shulgin was inventing these compounds, testing them on himself and his wife, Anna, and then shipping them down to Naranjo in South America where he was then testing them on his clients and seeing how does MDMA work as a tool for therapy. How does ayahuasca work? Obviously, ayahuasca has been around for a long time, and a whole bunch of other stuff. He was working with ibogaine and Harmaline,

and he's got several books that he wrote about it. One's called My Psychedelic Explorations, and the other one's called The Healing Journey, where he really lays out his discoveries of how to use psychedelics for psychotherapy. And what's really fascinating about that is his one book, My Healing Journey, that fell into the hands of an 18-year-old Rick Doblin.

If you know who Rick Doblin is, who's the founder of Maps, That launched Rick into his career, which now we have maps, the multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies. So Narano is really the godfather of the psychedelic movement, and he's also the godfather of the Enneagram. And these two branches got split off for historical reasons that I could go into, but one of my goals is trying to bring them back together and realize that these are two tools that work,

they amplify each other in really powerful ways. and when you put them together, you can, you can, you have a better guiding tool for what people are journeying on an experience and a better integration tool after people are coming out of it. So that's a lot. I've just done actually, let me just pause there and see what questions come up. Man, it sounds like an incredible way for integration, and it sounds like an incredible way to help guide people. But where I get lost is that I think psychedelics are this tool for, self-discovery and I worry that when we have all these tools that the guides become the medicine or the facilitators become the medicine instead of the individual finding these tools on their own

and then having their own self-discovery and their own breakthroughs what do you think well it's both I mean having a good there's a difference between a trip sitter and a guide and most psychedelic therapy is just trip sitting you just do no harm right just hold space keep people safe and that's how most of it should be done unless you're really experienced. But if you've traveled the path and you know where someone's stuck and you have these tools, they can accelerate the process and help people find their way through a difficult journey and push them through it because you know where they're going or where they need to go in some meaningful way in a broad sense or you know where and why they're stuck.

And so like my first 5 Mayo experience was very powerful and I had a wonderful facilitator, but he was just a trip sitter. And then I had all this experience, some of which was very traumatic. And I didn't have, how do I integrate this, how to make sense of this? And without some framework or or some deeper understanding of human psychology to help you move through it, you know you can i i took me about six months of i was kind of a wreck for about six months after my first five i mean experience because i i didn't have the guidance to help me make sense of it and understand it and so you can save people a lot of suffer the point is to reduce suffering

and and accelerate the spiritual journey and if you know what the map is then you can kind of walk people through it a little bit more efficiently rather than having make them reinvent the wheel on their own, especially if they maybe don't have a deep psychological or theological or theological or philosophical training, they may never, never figure it out in this. So it might just get lost. So I think it's important that if you are a guide and you are helping people with integration, that you have these tools so that you aren't causing more harm or leaving people unnecessarily in confusion and pain.

Yeah. Yeah, I see it's such an interesting conversation with like, the whole, you know what gets lost for me is like in the whole medicalization of it. Like there, I agree. My personal opinion is that the majority of people, you don't need a guy. Like you don't need, you just need courage. You need the courage to do large doses and sit with the trauma. Of course, there might be some integration down the work.

Like, you're going to get stuck, but I think so much of getting stuck is the medicine. Like, why can I get over this? What does this mean? Like, all of that individual searching is what allows you to break through. on some level. And I know that there's tons of people that actually have real issues that need the help right there. But man, I'm such a huge fan of the self-discovery. But I think that each individuals could use these tools alone. If once you begin learning these tools, like so much of the seeking is the medicine. Like, oh, my God, I found the intergram. What does this mean about me? And then you start doing your own notes, your own research.

You pick up the books from Claudia, you're from Osco. Sure. You pick up Doug lineman's books. And all of a sudden, you go, oh, okay, I'm figuring it out on that level. Absolutely. And I totally agree with that. And that's certainly how I, how I did it. But there's also, I think you can learn from your ancestors. I think there's wisdom that can be passed down. And that you, if you have people who can point you in the right direction, you might, it's, it's, it could be a bit more efficient. Let's put it that way. I'm going to say it's necessary. I mean, you have to do it that way. But if you are going to be, if people are going to be guiding and you are, looking for that extra little support, then then it's good, it's good to have mentors and people who've already stumbled through some of this and learned from their mistakes and, and, and know what the, what the limits and boundaries are for these substances as well. So I, I think, I think it's both.

Okay, this is, I got an awesome question, particularly for you. Where does money come into this then? Because we can see a lot of players coming up. Like I sometimes see these schools that come up or people charging for this. And it, it seems to me that when they, the instrument becomes an institution, it loses its ability to be effective on some level. So it says someone who has been on both sides of the spectrum and in psychedelics now, like, what's up with the money issue? Like, how does that fit in? How does it hold hands with spirituality?

Well, there's this, I think part of it, I mean, you know, and I don't talk about psychedelics in my book at all, but the opening chapter was all about psychedelics, and I originally had it sprinkled throughout by publisher, I think wisely, but for very, for very, very, various reasons forced me to cut all of it out. The book's long enough as it is. And but so the money thing is a is a whole other topic. But if you want to just talk for in the smaller sense of money in the knowledge, I would say this. There's this maybe dualistic thinking around money or this notion that money is inherently bad or evil or corrupting that that it's going to contaminate or pollute the spiritual adventure or journey.

And I think that's a misguided notion. I think money is a tool. And you can use it to whack yourself in the thumb or build something beautiful. It's really up to you. And so the book is really trying to teach people how to have a healthy, secure relationship to money. And what does that look like for you? And how do you work through your money traumas and all the different aspects that that can show

up in your financial life? but to the question of money in psychedelics, I have a bit of a contrarian opinion on that. I think that it's a service. I think it's an extremely valuable service that takes a lot of skill, a lot of time. It's very hard work. And we should be paying facilitators extremely well,

that we should be thinking like a doctor or a lawyer so that we attract the best talent to the field and that people are really able to make a good living out of it and they're able to provide a good service. I don't fundamentally see why offering psychedelic-assisted therapy is different from a regular therapist. You pay your regular therapist well to do a good job to help with your troubles.

Why would this be fundamentally in a different category? There's this idea that if you're doing good things in the world, you're doing good work, you're being of service, that somehow you shouldn't be making any money off of it is a little bit misguided because then who's going to be in the field? like only people can afford to not have to charge. Like you're limiting the pool or you're requiring people who are living a life of service to live a life of poverty or scarcity.

I don't think that's fair. I think we should elevate these professions to a very high level. And of course, I'd say a good third or half of the work I do is pro bono. So there's always giving back and I always work on a sliding scale and always meet people where they're at. So you don't want to get price gouge either, but I think you need to be able to make a living at whatever you're doing. Yeah, that's really well said. It almost harkens back to the beginning of the story where you said you were in the monastery and you realized that the people in there providing awesome service were going bankrupt. Right. Because we thought money and service were

antithetical to each other. Right. If you're doing good work in the world, it should be done for free or shouldn't be making any money off it. And then what happened in the monastery is it limited our ability to be of genuine service. And if someone comes to me and they're a multimillionaire and they're swimming in it, why shouldn't they can afford this? Why should why shouldn't they compensate someone well for doing good work for them? And if someone can't afford it, well, then okay, you got to meet them where they're at. But it's the idea that money and spirituality, maybe that's the theme of both of my books.

My first book is called for Monk to Money Manager, a former monk's financial guide to becoming a little bit wealthy and why that's okay. And now my new book, of course, just to plug it one more time, is Taming Your Money Monster, nine paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram. And the theme between both, there are very different books. The first book is sort of a how-to book, how do you manage your money on a practical, you know, nuts and bolts kind of level. And the second book is really the psychology of money. Why do you make stupid money mistakes over and over and over again?

How do you get over that? But the theme between both of them is just how do you bring your spiritual practice and money together in some healthy balance? How do you have a healthy relationship to money so that it can become a spiritual practice? Yeah, that's really well said. So that you have the tools to be of love and service to a suffering world. Like you can't do anything in life without money. Like money is the tool for most actions.

So if you want to have an effective force of action in the world, you're going to have to have money in your pocket. It's just, that's the end of the story. So if you are rejecting money out of some misguided notion that it's inherently bad or evil or whatever, and it can be used for that for sure. There's no doubt about it that. But it also can be used for tremendous good in the world. You can't, you can't feed the hungry or clothed and naked without money unless you can work

miracles can multiply the lows and fishes by yourself. I haven't figured that one out. So you really do need to master money in order to make a difference in the world. Can you see that in like the intergram, whether it's type one, two, or three? Does your core wound have a relationship with your, not only your spirituality, but also your ideas on money? 100%. So like, so there's in these nine types, each type has what I call two money monsters.

Okay. So what I've layered on, I've layered on top of the Nagram, what I call the attachment theory of money, which is based on the attachment theory of relationships. It's the same idea, just repurposed. And the idea is that when we are unhealthy at our money mindset, we can either be anxiously attached, which would be someone who's maybe too greedy, too acquisitive, too obsessed, sort of the Ebenezer Scrooges of the world, not to pick on Donald Trump, but he's kind of an easy, easy target. Or does that show, what is that show on HBO? Succession, if you ever seen that or billion? All right, you see people who are really money anxious and all the problems that that's causing.

Or on the other hand, you can be money avoidant, which is kind of how I was raised. What was how I approached it? It was hating money and wanting nothing to do with it, thinking it's bad or evil and rejecting it out of hand, and then disempowering yourself being able to do much in the world. But most of us are what I call the jumbled style. We can be a little avoidant in one area and maybe anguished in another. And I lay out in the book what I call the four pillars of finance. And the four pillars of finance are going to be earning, saving, investing, and giving. So earning, saving, investing, giving are kind of the four big buckets that your money monsters can show up in.

And so, for example, you could be an anxious earner. You might make a lot of money, but if you spend everything you make, then you're an avoidance saver because you're so busy buying stuff. Some people are anxious savers, but they're terrified of investing. Some people are anxious investors, but they never do anything useful with their money. They're assessing their wealth and not really using it as a tool for love and service to the world around them. And so the flavor of those money monsters, I'll just, I'll touch on the three because we already talked about it. And I'm happy to try to diagnose your money monsters if you want. Okay.

But for the three, there's two. I call them the barrier and the blinger. And so the money avoidant type three is called the barrier, which is like the ostrich who wants to stick their head in the sand. They don't want to look at it because it triggers all their shame. They have this internal sense of worthlessness. And so threes, we tend to equate our net worth with our self-worth. And so when we look at our paltry bank accounts, it brings up all this shame and all this grief that we have around it.

So we don't want to look at it. So we tend to push our bills away, don't want to do our taxes, don't want to do our budgets, you know, don't want to look at it. And that creates all kinds of suffering for people. Or on the other side, for the three, I call them the blinger, which is the money, anxious three, which is like it's, so threes are all about look at me, look at me, look me, look at me, look at me. It's kind of their, how they're, how their inner mantra. It's like, and so the blinger is using their money to buy status symbols to gain status in the eyes of

others. So they want the fancy car, they're nice watch, the big house, whatever, to impress the the people around them to assuage that inner sense of worthlessness. So they're using money as a tool to try to heal their core wound of their enneagram type in a very unhealthy and an unhealthy way. So those are the two money monsters of the three, but then there's, obviously we've got 18 in total so we've got 16 more we could go through if you if you wanted to talk about them. Man,

it blows my mind just to think about the relationship relationships in general. Like we're happy to go through what are some, like what's the Ariadne thread that runs through all of them? Is it like relationships, relationship to self?

Well, yeah, relationship to self. It's how, it's a relationship to your identity. It's how, what's your inner, dialogue, self-talk, and these wounds are unconscious. So here's the key point of the Enneagram is these wounds were necessary for you to develop self-consciousness. And so they developed unconsciously. And this is where the psychedelics can be helpful. Because in a broad strokes, what psychedelics do, and I'm overgeneralizing, of course, is they help make the unconscious conscious, right? And as you know from young, until we make the unconscious conscious,

it will direct your life and you will call it fate. You know, and so it's like, How do you get off this treadmill of fate that you're stuck on because you're operating unconsciously from these wounds and how do you reveal them, how do you uncover them, and how do you heal them? And so traditional therapy techniques work great, but when you pair them with psychedelics, obviously you can move things along just a little bit faster. What would be an awesome example that you and I could do together that would help show everybody what we're talking about? Oh, well, let's, okay, well, let's talk a, talk a good example. I mean, I always go back to, I always poke at myself because that's easier, but let me talk about you for a minute. Let's see if we can figure out where you're in.

And this is a hard, this is hard to do over a Zoom. And it's hit and miss. But so, so sit for a minute. Okay. Maybe just close your eyes and think about your darkest emotional moments, particularly when you're a teenager and in your teens and 20s, but even now, like when you are in a really dark space, what emotion comes up more for you?

Is it more anger? Is it more shame or is it more fear? Shame. Shame. Okay. So that puts you probably in the shame triad. So that means you're probably a two, three or four. So let me give you a couple of choices of what your greatest fear might be.

So I'll give you three options. One, do you feel? that you're basically unlovable and do you feel this compulsive need to help others in order to sort of earn love that you feel this compulsive need to like feel like you're not fundamentally lovable and that you're often running around helping people maybe to your own detriment overextending yourself that's that's one option that would be a type two I call them the ambiolable of egos because they're always running around rescuing other people because what they want is like I'll help you so that then you'll tell me how wonderful I am and you'll love me and you'll

prove of me. Does that resonate with you at all? It does, but I haven't heard the other ones. Okay. So type type two has what we call externalized shame. I mean they they take that shame and they have they feel shame about how they think other people perceive them. Okay, that's two. Then we've got type four. They're called the individualist. I call them the custom car. So they internalize that shame.

And they feel shame about how they perceive themselves. Like they don't have a unique identity or place in the world. So they're always striving to, their fears are not unique that they don't know who they are. They don't feel like they fit in. And so they always try to stand out by standing apart. Like they have this knee-jerk reaction to conventionality. If you tell me this is the way to do it, I'm going to push back against that.

And they're always just sort of feel this need to assert their individuality in any way that they can. Does that resonate with you at all? I think number two resonates most so far. And then, of course, there's the three, which we already covered. And that would be if you have both that internal and external shame, meaning so then your greatest fear is being worthless. So you're always running around on a treadmill trying to achieve. things to try to win that validation approval from other people. I think I resonate with two, but I've done a little bit of work.

Let me just interject for a minute and see where this goes. Like, I've gone, I've moved from I am not important to I am radical empathy, sort of caressing that core wound and being like, wait a minute, that's not what that means. What this really means is that you have the ability to see the brokenness, not only in yourself, but to see the signs of it everywhere else. And that allows you to become something that is meaningful and sort of patches that hole of the ambulance chase or that shame. All of a sudden you realize shame, hey, wait a minute.

That's just something that you're aware of. And now you have the gift of seeing it everywhere on some level. And if you can see it as that gift, you can really help out a lot of other people. So number two. Number two. Okay. Great.

So if you're at type two, then if that ambit helper, if that's your type and again, there's all kinds of tests you can take. And actually, just to make a quick plug, I have a licensing deal with a company called it. It's called the IEQ9 Integrative Antigram Test. And I'll send you the link and maybe you can put those show notes.

Of course. And if people take the test through that link, I get a little kickback. So you can support me, support my work. And it's the best test out there. It's got about a 95% accuracy rate. And I really admire the work they've done there. That's why I recommend it.

But all right, so I'll send you that and then and I'll send I'll send you a free link to that. I can get you a free one for you. Okay. And maybe give it a shot and see if we if we got how accurate we were in this quick, you know, arm-term diagnosis. So so then if you're the helper, then the money monsters for the type two, I call them the bleeder and the bonder. And so the bleeder is the type two who is the money avoidant to who is sort of bleeding

out their time and their talent and their treasure in service of others, but they have a hard time taking care of themselves. They're they give almost too generous to a fault. And so they, they're essentially, they're always running around rescuing other people, but not taking care of themselves. Or if they're money anxious, they have, if they really want a lot of money and they have resources, they become what I call the bonder. And the bonder is someone who uses their money to create codependency in others. They sort of like the two's need, they need this constant flow of gratitude coming back at them. And so there's sort of like there's a story like the parable or metaphor or whatever it is.

You know, it's better to teach a person to fish than to give them a fish every day. Well, type two is sometimes would rather give someone a fish every day like with a side of tartar sauce and a note that says you're amazing because they feed off that gratitude coming at them. so they can create that codependency. And so that would be some of the ways the money monitors might show up for it, too. And do any of those resonate with you? Yeah, I'll see the first one. Yeah.

Okay. So then we've got to figure out how to get you out of that. All right. So I'll walk you through. And how much time we got? I'm open. As much time as you want, man. Oh, you may, fantastic.

I can talk about that. All right, let's walk you through your ego map then for type of two. Can I screen share on this? Yeah, there should be a little button right down there where it says present or invite. Okay. Or do you see it down now? See a little on. Yep.

Share slides of PDFs, your computer. So it might have to edit this little bit out. Upload file. And then let's see if I can find it really quickly. Yeah. It's only showing custom files. See the large icon. Sorry to take this time.

Yeah, no worries. Take your time, man. I think you'll find this helpful. Of course, absolutely. All right. It says invalid file type. It's a PDF. Is that not supported format? I don't.

I'm not real sure. I guess I could. Oh, did I lose you there? It looks like we lost him for a minute, but if you hang on briefly, I'm sure he'll be right back to join us. Shout out to Joshua Moyer, Clint Kyle, Toree. So stoked you guys are all here. It's such an interesting time that we live in to figure out our relationship with what our core wound is right here.

Okay. I'm back. You're back. Take me out. I hit the wrong button. The two buttons look the same. All right. Sorry about that.

No worries, man. Let's try an image file. Okay, yeah. I don't know why it wouldn't allow it there. Okay. Here we go. How's that? Got it.

Great. Okay. So now you have to think of actually if we're if we're doing slides, let me show you one more slide. This will be helpful for your audience. Yeah. Let's do image file. Okay. Let's start here. This is a little. Let's start with let's just back it up a notch. Okay. And we'll try to make this accessible to people who are just listening to the audience. Yeah, let's do it. But so if you show the second slide I sent, that's the pie chart. Okay.

Got it. Okay. So this is kind of a quick rundown of the nine types. So you can see what we're looking at is like a pizza pie. We've diced it into three triads and then three, each of those gets subdivided into three parts. So we have a total nine pie slices. And so you can see at the. the center here, we have what I call your sacred wound. It could be anger, sadness, or fear.

And if we're looking at type 2, right, you see that internal, externalized sadness, which creates your greatest fear of being unlovable. Do you want to go, I think it's probably too much to go through all nine types. But anyway, you can see that each one has a core wound, and then you can see what the core fear is. And then if we, yeah, that's probably a lot. to digest. But we'll, well, let's just jump maybe then to the ego map for type two. And this just have to be a teaser. So if you want more of this, check out my book, Taming Your Money Monster. You got it's got all these slides and all these graphics built into it. Thank you.

And by the way, the book's got five-star reviews on Amazon and it's doing great. So anybody wants to check it out, please do. And post reviews would be helpful if anybody likes it. But so the reason I'm really showing you this is this is sort of a cross-section of what we're going to look at in the next slide. So this circle is a cross section of a double cone. So you have to think of this, if you imagine two traffic cones stuck together at their bases. So you've got a point at the bottom and a point at the top. And if we can flip to that slide real quick, so now you can see that that circle was a cross section of this diagram, this cone on the left. And what I've done is try to map out in broad strokes the path that we're traveling. And so,

let's just look at this, this, the, the, there's a, sort of the meta map is on the left, and then your specific journey is on the right. So the meta map there is, and this is sort of the axiomatic assumption of the enneagram, the bottom there is, so when you're born, is, is it, and this is my, every, so what we know for mathematics in any, any system is you have to have axiomatic assumptions, sort of unprovable assumptions that you're, you're assuming to be true, even in math, you do this, um, And then hopefully they're common sense. And then we can build up from there.

So the common sense assumption in the Antigram is that you're starting your journey in the womb in a state of unconscious unity, that you don't have a clear sense of self or not self, but you're kind of in a state of oneness with everything you can experience. And then you get popped out in the world and you're, we call the first half of life. And we're at the bottom of this double cone. And imagine your ego expanding and growing. as you move up this cone. And that first half of life is your path to independence. It's how you establish your independent sense of how you individuate and differentiate

in childhood. And I call it the journey from thee to me, like, thee being the sacred of the divine, whatever your, whatever your tradition is, doesn't matter. And then what happens is that then your ego grows into conscious separation. And it has to grow, it has to develop the independent. sense of self. But what happens is the ego grows so much, it doesn't know when to stop until it hits the boundaries of reality. It's essentially, and you get into what I call the dark night of the

soul, where, where, you know, all the things that you thought were going to make you happy, don't, or you lose your job, your wife gets cancer, you're, you know, all these things that just throw you into turmoil where reality basically is giving you these unconditional rejections of you, because you're sort of starting in a state of unconditional acceptance in the womb, and then you get into life and then you get to these big nose that come at you in terms of reality just saying, nope, you're not going to have that career you thought. Nope, you're not going to be healthy like you thought. Nope, you're not going to have all the things and all the things you thought were going to make you happy.

And so at some point, we tend to create our own suffering. You know, there's tragedies and accidents happen, but we get into this dark night of the soul. And then your ego has to break open through suffering because it doesn't. doesn't know when to stop growing. And then you move into the second half of life. You gain a little more compassion, a little more wisdom, and you learn this is your path to interdependence, right? And that's your journey from what I call from me to we, right?

You're moving from the individualist, extensive self to a more holistic we. And I use a capital we there, like the whole thing, which is what psychedelics can do a good job of helping you do experience. And the goal of that journey is to get to the top of this double cone, which is conscious unity. That's where we're trying to, of all of our spirit traditions and all the spiritual adventures, we're trying to help you reach that state of conscious unity with where you see yourself as part of this cosmic whole, right, and all in love.

And so I'll pause there and then I'll walk you through your particular map of that journey, if that makes sense. That's beautiful. Like I, maybe it's the age I'm at right now. Maybe it's the fact that I'm already on LSD today. You know, maybe it's all these things together. that's great man nothing

nothing hits harder than the truth I love it do you might share what your dose was or is that too no not at all I've been I just moved from like I was big on I love psychedelics let me just say that first off I was going with like my own protocol

of microdosing mushrooms for quite some time but I just switched back to LSD and I do like 10 UGs so like a real micro dose. And I'll do it for like three days straight and then I'll take a few days off and then come back to it again, just depending on on where I am. But yeah, about 10 UGs today. Fabulous. Okay. So you just get a little buzz. A nice little bit, man. Clarity. All right. So if this, if this meta map kind of makes some sense and there's a lot more part, but then there's all these parts to it. So let's start at the bottom. So we're looking from the bottom up here.

The first part is what I call your sacred wound. That was how your psychological, umbilical cord got cut in childhood. And we all have to have it. And so what's nice about that is everyone's, we're all the walking wounded. Like we're all, we all got this wound. The flavor of it's different for each of us, but nobody, there's no good types or bad types in the end of them. Everybody's got their thing. And so your sacred wound would then be that externalized sadness or shame, right? And that creates the greatest fear that we're building, what I'm building, this is my Jungian understanding of the shadow structure. Right. So we're, this is your particular shadow if we got your type right,

which is a, I want to put that caveat on that because I'm not 100% sure on that, but it sounds like we're close. And maybe as we move through this, you'll, you'll, if more of this resonates or if it gets off track, then maybe we got the wrong type.

Okay, so then the greatest fear for the type, type two is then that fundamental feel of being unlovable, right? So then you have a greatest vice. It's called the passion in the end of the diagram. I don't like, what you're seeing in the diagram is there's a term I'm using, and then there's a term in parentheses. And the term in parentheses is the traditional enneagram language, which I don't use because I think it's confusing. So I've cleaned up the verbiage here in order to make a more coherent

structure so that the shadow structure you're looking at and the enlightenment structure mirror each other. And so that's why I change the terminology. And the anagram is sort of a mishmash. It's like a, it's like a, imagine you have a, it's like, imagine you have a, trying to make a cake with a recipe from five different grandmothers. All the recipes are good, but you'll mash them all together. It's like, you know, so that was part of my journey of these years of developing the system is to try to clean up and streamline the language a little bit. So, all right, with that, I'll just use my language.

And if people who are already any good enthusiasts, forgive me if I don't have the time to translate it into your terminology for you. But you'll pick it up pretty quick. All right. So you have a greatest fear, which is being unlovable. And then you have a greatest vice. Now, this also was called, originally we called them the seven deadly sins. There were actually nine deadly sins.

We forgot to. And they've added onto them. But basically, each type has a core sin. I hate that word because it's a loaded language. So I use your vice. It's like the one vice that you're going to struggle with more than the others. Like we don't all have the same vices. And so your vice would, for two, is pride.

It's the pride in what a good, loving, caring, helpful person that you are. And so it's this pride that you then creates what I call your primary ego addiction. And the primary ego addiction for the two is in flattery. And what that means is that it's that compulsive need to tell people how wonderful they are, but also to be of service to people. You're always trying to compliment people or do something nice, for someone because what you want them to do. And this is the dirty, the dirty secret for twos is they, they're in this game of give to get.

It's a, it's a cycle. Everything they give has a strings attached to it. So it's like, I'll help you, but you better tell me how great I am or you better reach secret to make that or else I'm going to be really upset, right? There's an unexpected. It isn't, it isn't, it's conditional. The problem with twos is the reason how they got to become a two. is in part is they experienced a high degree of conditional love in their childhood environment.

And so then you kind of, then you, you transmit that trauma of, then you, that's how you are then relating to the people around you is of, of, of, yeah, I'll flatter you, I'll help you, I'll do this, but, but really, I'm looking for that, that validation and connection that you're going to give me to tell me how wonderful I am to reinforce my pride. All right. Now, the problem with your primary ego addiction, just like any addiction, is you can overuse it. You can overdose on it. And so when you overdose on your flattery or you've overextended yourself, you've given too much of yourself and you haven't gotten back what you expected from it, you have a secondary ego addiction and it's like mixing a stimulant with a depressant. It's like you flip to the opposite strategy

from your normal mode of being when you're under stress, when you get really stressed out or really upset and the secondary ego addiction for the type two is is vengeance it's like it's it's it's like i'm gonna i'm gonna um which is uh the primary eaudiction for type eight so you still look like a type eight temporarily and they're what we call the challenger you sort of become it's like watching a teddy bear suddenly grow fangs and claws right like this sort of a inner monster comes out but your secondary ego addiction, it doesn't stand alone. It mixes with your greatest vice of pride. And so you get vengeance plus pride equals just plan out revenge. Like it sort of blocks your flat. Basically, it blocks your flattery. It prevents you from, from breaking yourself on the cross of overgiving, essentially.

So you tend to find subtle ways to get back at the people who it could be picking a fight with your spouse. it could be suddenly getting sick to like make someone take care of you it could be backbiting you know someone behind their back all these different ways that somehow you're going to make that other person suffer in some way for not giving you what you expected with the flattery that you offered does that make sense yeah it totally makes sense it's it for me like I've I've in my life I I'm trying to move from revenge to justice like there's a difference between getting something for revenge and then wanting justice. And later in life, like it took me a long time to realize that those two things were not the same.

Like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like you want revenge, you don't want justice. You're not here for what's right. You're here to hurt somebody. You're here to get revenge on somebody. So yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's a really helpful way of reframing it.

So now we're at the end of the bottom of this double cone, right? And that leads into your money monsters, the, the, avoidant and the anxious money monsters, which we talked about earlier, the bleeder and the bonder. So those are the ways that then this shadow would manifest itself in your relationship to money. Okay. So that's eventually what happens is these ego addictions, they throw you into the dark night of the soul. Because you overuse them. And this is probably the most important thing I've learned from the anagram is that, you know,

there's a Buddhist principle that most of our suffering. is self-created. But the aim tells you, what's the, how are you creating that suffering? What's the unique flavor of that suffering for you? Because invariably, it's like the, you're using these ego addictions to outrun that greatest fear of being unlovable. But it's like you push the engine so hard, you end up burning out your engine or crashing yourself into a ditch.

It actually causes, it's like a black mirror episode. Like the thing you're trying to outrun and your defense strategies, outrun it, create the very thing that you are trying to avoid in the first place so that all that flattery and all that, then all the revenge is revenge that's coming out, it tends to crash you and you tend to feeling unlovable because your relationships are a mess or your things are falling apart because you've overused these ego addictions. And that creates you ultimately feeling separate from everyone and everything, including your sense of the divine. So you get lost in this really dark space and and then we got to figure out a way to get you out of it and through it.

And this is where psychedelics are super helpful can move you through this much more quickly rather than having you be stuck in it for years or decades or, you know, because the dark night can last a long time. It's not like a, and it's not a one and done. And this is, I'm drawing this as a linear model, but you can move up and down this at any time in a day. And you know, and you can use your ego addictions in any dosage in any amount at any time. But, okay. So then we want to get into your enlightenment structure. How are we going to move you through this? Well, the first thing, you have what I call a faux virtue.

Each type has a fake virtue. Now, it's a virtue for other types, but it's a potential spiritual trap for you. And that would be generosity. So because they're so helpful, because they're giving, they think generosity is a virtue, but for you, it could be a way to reinforce your ego in an unhealthy way. So you need to be mind, just be mindful of it that you know, it's sort of hanging out there. It's sort of a trap door that you could fall into in thinking that, you know, that would actually just make things worse for you if you're not careful about that. Not that generosity is bad, but it can become a trap to reinforce that pride of the two.

Okay. I'm going pretty quick here. Any questions so far? No. It's awesome. I think we're moving through like at a digestible pace. Okay. Interrupt me at any point.

Okay, so then you have what I call your primary recovery virtue. This is your first step to enlightenment for two. That's honesty. It's being really honest about what you really think and feel. And it's your best weapon against that flattery. To be able to say, you know, maybe you aren't, maybe that baby isn't, I mean, you don't have to be like brutally honest, but, you know, you shouldn't, you just want to be careful that that flattery isn't it's the antidote to that flattery it's an honest

assessment of what's really going on in front of you and you aren't praising people when they don't deserve it or you aren't even sending help when it isn't needed or wanted or given because sometimes twos can be very intrusive in their help like they're going to sometimes giving it when it isn't even asked for or wanted and so just being honest about what you really think and feel is going to be the first step in being able to tame this shadow for you. But there's two more steps to it as we move up the ladder here. So we'll walk up this ladder of the top half of this double cone as we're moving into interdependence or moving into conscious unity.

Then you have a secondary recovery virtue that opens up when you begin to practice that primary recovery virtue. So first you got to start with the honesty. And then that starts to open up the secondary virtue, which is joy, which is finding joy in the present moment. And you start to look like what we call it type four. Your secondary recovery virtue is the primary recovery virtue for another type, which is type four, which we can talk about.

It's a whole other thing. But essentially, you need to bring honesty and joy together to create a super virtue for you, which is your greatest virtue, and that's humility. So that is, and that humility is going to. be the antidote of that pride is that you're honest in the moment you're you're joyful in the moment you're you're you're you're centered and grounded in yourself without needing that external validation essentially because you have that the joy you're finding is internal not external it's not looking outward for someone else to fulfill you you found that inner fulfillment for yourself and then you can live

in in great humility um and then that brings you to your goal greatest hope, which is to feel unconditionally loved. Because when you're living in humility, you're letting your authentic self come out, your highest expression of yourself, that's when you're going to be able to feel unconditionally love because there are all these strings attached. You aren't you aren't in this pay to play game anymore. You're just honest about, you're presenting yourself honestly and forthrightly. You're living in your joy. And then the love comes naturally, much more more it's a it's a love that is well well it's a mystical experience let's put it that way I mean as as a psychonaut you'll know what I'm talking yeah it's hard to put this into

word exactly but in essence you're being loved for who you are not for what you're doing for everybody not for the fake persona that you're putting out there into the world and that brings us to the top of this which is your sacred gift and the sacred gift for the two is what I call divine love is that that love that because your greatest weakness is loving conditionally so your greatest strength is loving unconditionally and then your gift to give to the world is that divine love of unconditional love that you can bring to others more than any other type now we all need to bring love in the world but it's a it's a sort of a it's your superpower that you really can that that that you can manifest in really powerful way

and that brings you up to the very top, then you're living in consciousness. I guess the point is to feel that divine love inside yourself, for yourself. And then psychedelics can help you with that powerfully. And then when you feel that you both feel and know yourself to be a fractal piece of the divine, and you feel that connection, and you feel the love from that connection,

that then heals that sacred wound that was causing all your problems in the first place. And then you can become what I call the money master for the type three, which is the beloved, right? Where you are that force of love and service in the world, like Mother Teresa is a good example, where you just are able to love the world unconditionally and bring that as your gift to the rest of us

and teach us how to do it. It's so amazing to get to see the structure of like this chart where and it brings me great joy to see like the different 3D models like this sort of map to understand the dimensionality of personality the dimensionality of core wounds moving into a more enlightened state or maybe that's not the right word but like a more the true version of yourself. You know it's it's such a it's really well done. I really like to get for me. it helps me better understand the course of life because for so long we've been just sort of pigeonholed into these bar charts or these graphs or this sort of linguistic models that don't really thoroughly explain. And when I look at something like this, you see sort of the science and the spirituality behind it, which makes it much more digestible.

And I definitely think that most of my listeners who enjoy psychedelics or have had some sort of psychedelic experience, be it through substance or breath work, you're going to get this model way more. It's going to resonate much deeper. And I think that's where psychedelics come in. Like you really understand these things. But when you get to bring something back like this, it really helps create it in a holistic way. It's really well done, man. I like it.

And all of this came from my psychedelic journey. All of this came out of my own inner journey work. And in order to figure this out for the other Enneagram types, I had to start with myself. So I had to start my own ego map. and really figure out what is my deal. And some of this stuff is already, other Enneagram experts have already laid some of the stuff out. But I'm the first one to put it into this 3D linear model.

So it's really coherent and clear. And I invented a couple new steps and a couple new terms along the way. What are some of the new ones that you invented? Well, everything that doesn't, if you're looking at the, if you can see it, everything that does not have a parentheses is new. And then all the new. And then I had to revise a bunch of stuff, like clean up a bunch of what I thought were good, but convoluted idea. Like the sacred gifts are what we traditionally call the holy ideas, which I found very confusing, very esoteric,

and to make it very much more practical and grounded. And then to sort of lay these out in a linear way so that you can see it in a step-by-step process. Yeah. I could see how this, or in the conversation, we're talking about facilitating. So for those of you're listening and can't see it, the new ideas are the sacred wound, that's new for me, the ego stress response, that's new. The faux virtue is new. The primary recovery virtue is new. So those are all new parts to this that you need to, I've been plugged into these other ideas.

You know, here's a, I got a question. I just sort of off topic a little bit, but do you think it's possible? Like I for me, some things that I've begun to incorporate into my psychedelic exercises are using like different. Man, I can't think of the word for it right now. But not some SARMs, but also peptides. And it seems to me like some of these peptides people are using the same way psychedelics allow us for new neural plasticity. It seems like some of these peptides are helping the body heal in a way. And I'm just curious to get your thoughts.

Are you familiar with some of these different peptides or maybe some nootropics that might be feeling the body in the same way that? I really don't know enough to say anything meaningful about it. I know a little bit about them, but not enough to have any opinion on it. Okay. Well, let me shift gears a little bit then. Or what I would say. Yeah, I would say this. Here's the other thing I've been working on, though.

Okay. And again, this is anecdotal. Okay. And this is nascent, but I did a presentation on this at Burning Man last year that got really well received. They actually did give it the same talk like four more times because it was so cool. But how do we take this and use it to figure out which psychedelics are most likely to bring you the most healing? Now we're talking. Right.

And so now, again, the Antigram is this incredibly complex fractal. and there's all these other layers to it. There's a thing we're not going to have time to talk about today called the Instinctual Variants for those who are familiar, which shift this equation a bit in different ways. But in broad strokes, if you could go back to that pie chart just for a second, if you pull that diagram up. Yeah.

And we're looking at these three triads of the Enneagram. We've got the anger, sadness, and fear triad. And my rough hypothesis is that if you're in the shape, or sadness triad, a good place to start for you on psychedelics would be MDMA. Because it's going to give you that. Now, this is metaphorically speaking. We say the people who are in the sadness triad, we also often call them the heart triad. So any sort of heart openers, any empathogens, are the ones that are going to be most useful

for you if you want to go into that sacred wound and find healing in your journey experience that any of those empathogens are probably the best place for you to start. And then if you're in the fear triad, we also call out the head triad. And if you remember the movie Dune or the book, I was a big fan, said that fear is the mind killer, right? So we say that if you're in the status triad, we say you're wounded in the, metaphorically speaking, your core wound is in your heart and how you feel.

There's something off in the way you're feeling perceptions in different ways. And if you're in the fear triad, there's something often how you're thinking about how you think about reality. And so for those folks, I would suggest probably starting with classical psychedelics like LSD or mushrooms are going to be a good place to start to really open the mind up and try to release that fear or confront the fear. And then if you're in the anger triad, now this is a new term I'm hoping we'll take off. I'm calling them somatolithics. so soma means body and lytic means release so that would be things like ketamine or things that are going to we say that if you're if your sacred wound is anger we say you're a body type or a gut type and that's a metaphor to saying your wound is in the gut where the anger resides metaphorically

and those folks seem to find a lot more healing of their sacred wound when they're doing something that that disassociates them from their body and gets them away gives them an experience of somatic release from that bodily sensation of anger that they have. And I would love to see other people play with this idea and see how it might, if other people find it effective as well. And I'm leaving out, I'm leaving out NNDT and Five Meo DMT. Those are kind of a different bucket. Those are sort of, this is just for like the,

we're talking about the dark night of the soul. So that's, yeah, and there's way more psychedelics than that. but to talk about the ones that are sort of mainstream, that's my hypothesis. I love it. I think it's phenomenal. You presented it at Burning, man. Have you, and obviously yourself as a facilitator, you've been using this methodology? What, have you, have you found great success with it? Have you partnered with other people? Are people coming to you and saying, like, hey, I'd like to try to get this over here in my clinic, or I would like to sit down and talk to you about how this can be used where I'm at? Well, I have. And I'm, um, um, I'm, um, um, I'm, um, um,

But I've really just sort of just getting this out into the world. I've been so busy with the money stuff and the promotion of that. This is pretty new. I think I've only presented this online. I did do some YouTube videos on all this that I posted, and I have talked to other people about it. But so far, I'm sort of unveiling it, if you will, here to the wider public, although it has been out there in other places. But really, it's just something I'm just starting to really be able to talk about.

and promote. Yeah, I think that this is pioneering. This can cross so many different fields of, you know, psychology or the different methodologies for PTSD or even addiction. Like, it'll probably really good for addiction as well because you could find out what your personality type is, partnering with Iboga treatment centers or, you know, any kind of optimization centers or it really is not contained into one area, but dives down deep and into the core wounds. It can probably help out all those different areas. Absolutely. So that's why I think the angriam is.

So my next book I want to write is on the enneagram and psychedelics. Like how do we use this as a tool? You know, how do we figure out what medicine's pairings are more or less likely to be helpful for you? And then what's, you know, and then it really does predict. I challenge people to try it. Just keep your eyes open for it.

When you're on your journeys or you're watching other people journey, if you know your antigram type and you know the person's type, like see if this, I think you'll notice this pattern of this flavor of the enigram changes what you are going to experience on a journey because your journey is going to tend to bounce between these poles of your greatest fear. The darkest journeys are going to be some confrontation in some way, shape, or form with that greatest fear as determined by your ingram type.

And the highs, right, tend to have that flavor of fulfilling your greatest hope. Because a way of thinking about it like this is like, if these medicines are flooding you with like love and what connection and whatever whatever particular they each do different things but whatever they're flooding you with they they they you notice that you notice that most the filling you up in the spaces where you're most empty so while the medicine is neutral but how you experience it if it's flooding you with this love and acceptance or whatever it is you notice it in the wound where that where you have the most efficiency, the most lack. So that's kind of what creates that euphoria.

Oh, I'm releasing some part of this trauma or I'm overcoming fear. And then that shapes the flavor of the experience. Yeah. Yeah, it really gives people something to, it almost gives voice to the ineffable. You know what I mean by that? Like because you have so many of these connections

in a deep journey or these moments of awe where everything is so clear and then it fades away so fast. But this looks like you really bringing something back from that particular state and sharing it, which is the ultimate goal to me of psychedelics, is to bring something back from that awareness and share it with everybody else. Yeah. Well, that's our responsibility, right? Yes, without a doubt.

That's why we go. That's why we go. Doug, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, that's the hero's journey. That's Joseph Campbell, right? The whole point of the hero's journey is to do this and then bring yet Boone back. bring that knowledge, that wisdom back into the world to your community. And without that, then you've, it's sort of, just sort of narcissistic self-engrandizement.

Yeah, I love it. Doug, super stoked, man. This has been incredible. Like, if people want to find, let me put this, I'm going to put this piece back up, because I want people to see where they can find you and what you got coming on over here. Like, let's say people are listening to us right now, Doug, and they're like, this is amazing. I want to reach out to Doug, man. I want to be part of his new book. I want to collaborate on a book with him.

I want to get this into my place where I'm working. What's the best way to do that? Like, what can they find you? Sure. You can find me online. I'm really easy to find. So if you just search my name, Doug Lynum, D-O-U-G-L-Y-N as a Nicholas, A-M-A-M-M-A-M-E-M-E-W website is my name, Doug Lynum.com.

My email is my name, Doug at Doug Lynum.com. And my social media handles are all at Doug Lynum. So you can find me on you. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, all the things. So I'm pretty much out there on the web. So I'm not hard to track down if you just got my name. You got any events coming up or anything on the radar? Not at the moment.

Right now I'm just both I've got my head down. Well, podcasts. I'm just doing the podcast. I'm doing two of your podcasts a week. That's kind of been my book tour, so to speak. And then I've got some speaking gigs. I've got some retreats I'm participating in, but they're all full up right now. but yeah so I got lots of things coming up and nothing that I could plug it at the moment

nice well hang on briefly afterwards Doug I would like to talk for a minute everybody else within the sound of my voice incredible show please reach out to Doug if you got to see this you got to see this breaking stuff that he's just kind of bringing out right now super amazing and I hope everybody has a beautiful day that's all we got ladies and gentlemen oh I see the photo of my pope on there on the bottom there yeah Yeah. Yeah, I got to meet Pope Francis. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Anyway, we'll come back. We'll come back and we'll do another session and maybe we'll bring some more people on.

We'll have a broader panel discussion. I think that there's a lot of people that would love to talk to you and I would love to talk to you more. Sounds great, George. I had a blast on your show, man. This is fantastic. So much fun. Yeah. Okay, hang on briefly afterwards. Everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Aloha.