TrueLife - Dr. Amy Reichelt - Between “I” and “Thou”

Episode Date: January 9, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Aloha, and welcome to today’s discussion with a brilliant mind at the forefront of neuroscience and mental health innovation—Dr. Amy Reichelt. With over 15 years of experience spanning the pharmaceutical industry and academia, Dr. Reichelt has cemented herself as a leader in the exploration of groundbreaking therapies for some of the most pressing psychiatric and neurological challenges of our time.From depression and anxiety to traumatic brain injuries and neuropathic pain, Dr. Reichelt’s subject matter expertise is as vast as it is impactful. She has successfully led cross-functional teams through preclinical and clinical research programs, contributed to multiple patent inventions, and played an instrumental role in securing $3.6 million in non-dilutive research funding. With her deep understanding of regulatory standards, she has driven the successful development of IND filings and early-stage clinical trials, bridging the gap between innovative discovery and patient care.Dr. Reichelt is not only a scientific powerhouse with over 50 peer-reviewed publications in top-tier journals, but also a sought-after speaker on the global stage. From Psychedelic Science to TEDSydney, her presentations captivate audiences, blending cutting-edge science with practical insights into brain health, mental wellness, and the transformative role of diet and exercise.Passionate, visionary, and endlessly curious, Dr. Reichelt embodies a commitment to advancing mental and physical well-being as a cornerstone of health. Whether she’s conducting translational research, fostering collaboration across industries, or sharing actionable brain health strategies, her impact is both profound and far-reaching.Prepare to be inspired and enlightened by her expertise and vision for the future of neuroscience. Please join me in welcoming the exceptional Dr. Amy Reichelt!https://www.amyreichelt.com/http://linkedin.com/in/amyreichelt One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen

Welcome back to the True Live podcast I hope everybody's having a beautiful day I hope the sun is shining I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. And I hope that you are ready for a brilliant show this mid-morning or afternoon or whatever you're watching or listening to this. I want to welcome everyone to the discussion today with a brilliant mind at the forefront of neuroscience and mental health innovation. Dr. Amy Reichelt.

With over 15 years of experience spanning the pharmaceutical industry and academia, Dr. Reichelt has cemented herself as a leader. in the exploration of groundbreaking therapies for some of the most pressing psychiatric and neurological challenges of our time. From depression and anxiety to traumatic brain injuries and neuropathic pain, Dr. Amy's subject matter expertise is as vast as it is impactful. She has successfully led cross-functional teams through preclinical and clinical research programs, contributed to multiple patent inventions, and played an instrumental role in securing 3.6 million in non-dilutive research funding. With her deep understanding of regulatory standards, she has driven the successful development of IND filings and early stage clinical trials, bridging the gap

between innovative discovery and patient care. She's not only a scientific powerhouse with over 50 peer-reviewed publications and top-tier journals, but also a sought-after speaker on the global stage. From psychedelic science to Ted Sidney, her presentations captivate audiences, blending cutting-edge science with practical insights into brain health, mental wellness, and the transformative role of diet and exercise. Passionate, visionary, and endlessly curious, she embodies a commitment to advancing mental and physical well-being as a cornerstone of health. Whether she's conducting translational research, fostering collaboration across industries,

or sharing actionable brain health strategies, her impact is both profound and far-reaching. Dr. Amy, I'm so stoked you're here today. How are you? Thank you so much. That was such a lovely introduction. I'm like, oh my God, was that me? Yeah. It's like looking into a mirror and realizing, hey, this person's pretty amazing. I'm stoked you're here, man. Thanks for doing all the things you've been doing recently. How's it going over there? It's going well. You know, we're in Toronto. It's hitting up winter. So, you know, certainly it's less like green and fresh. It's more sort of, you know, settling into the gray sludge of winter, which anyone who lives in Toronto will understand. But yeah, everything's going good.

So happy to be here today. Yeah. We recently met on Scylocybin, San Francisco, where we were working on a panel together and just diving into some fascinating topics about, you know, drug development, psychedelics, and the movement that psychedelics is sort of having, maybe the moment psychedelics is having, maybe the moment psychedelics is having right now. And I just kind of wanted to maybe begin the process by what was your foray into psychedelics? Have you always been fascinated by him?

Was it just sort of the way in which the mind works or what really kind of brought you into the world of psychedelics? Well, we can go all the way back. When I was at university as an undergrad, I was really interested in pharmacology and psychopharmacology in people. particular. So I just thought it was really amazing that you could be a scientist and you could literally just study drugs. I was like, sign me up. That sounds like the kind of thing that I want to know. And I was also really interested in how, you know, the brain works as well and the impact of how drugs change our behavior and also how they alter on neurochemistry. So my first foray really into scientific research was as, you know, sort of a naive undergraduate, you know,

donning my lab coat for the first time. And I got to give rats the munchies by literally administering them THC. And I was like, this is amazing. And like, you know, nobody really, it wasn't like groundbreaking science in any way, shape or form. We were using a drug analyst. called Ramonibon, which is a CB1 inverse agonist. So basically it blocks off the CB1 receptors and it was being used for a weight loss drug at the time. And it kind of just took all the joy out of eating. So it wasn't actually, it actually got approved and then was withdrawn in terms of the approval. But I was messing around with like the endocannabinoid system, looking at how it changes palatibility. And I was like, do you know what? This is my

calling, I'm just going to give rats drugs. And that, that, you know, moved into then going to do my, my finishing up my undergrad, then going into a PhD. My PhD was sponsored by Eli Lilly. So, yay, serotonergic. But I was actually working in the neurodegenerative drug hunting team at the time that all of neuroscience was kind of being shut down in the UK because nobody had really achieved anything much. And I was doing that and my PhD I was around neurogeneration, how the, you know, how different sorts of neurogenerative disorders impact cognition and starting to really understand how different drugs can stimulate cognition. So when in, from there looking at memory.

And then never really got to psychedelics until when I was finishing up, well, it was kind of doing COVID actually. So I'd always really been interested in psychedelics, but I'd never really worked on serotonin systems. I was really interested in dopamine and reward learning, addiction and that side of things, particularly around how food influences cognition, how that is changed in terms of neuroinflammation

happening in the brain and how that was influencing memory formation, potentially food addiction. But then COVID happened and I was like, you know, this is a global mental health crisis, just setting up more so than it was already. and I got so interested in how psychedelics were, you know, a potential game changer to, you know, really shake up the mental health care in worldwide because it was so limited. You know, what are the options for people with depression and anxiety, SSRIs, and then, you know, some CBT if you know, you're lucky to have that on your insurance plan? And I was like, there's got to be more than this. And looking at all the interesting work that had come out of like John Crystal's lab with ketamine and how it was increasing neuroplasticity and how ketamine was now being utilized as a rapid acting antidepressant and changing people's lives, helping people who are having mental health crises. I was like, this is actually the shakeup that I think psychiatry and really, really needed.

I love it. It's a beautiful answer. I'm stoked to get to learn more about the way in which you're hearing, you're acting out. It seems to me that you also have a fascination with behavior. Is that something that was fostered at a young age or are you always the person? Like, why are they doing that? I wonder what that is. Like, what is your relationship to the fascination of behavior? I just, I always found it really interesting from that biological, like why we do certain things and how we're influenced not only by our environment, but how we've learned and what, you know, shapes are both personalities, but also how that then influences how we interact with a really good. dynamic environment and how we can change behaviors. And conversely, how we become rooted into certain maladaptive behaviors that have become, you know, like our thought patterns and our habits that we start to develop. And I think that that extends to like, you know, then how the brain is controlling that. And I was really fascinated during my PhD in particular in the prefrontal cortex, which is our bit of the brain that's considered to be our executive function, our brain CEO,

so to speak. And this is the area of the brain that's so closely involved in decision making, controlling impulses, and is also the brain area that starts to become compromised in certain disorders like front of temporal dementia and drug addiction and depression even as well. it's almost like our brain is becoming shut down, and that means that we end up in a cycle where we can't change behaviours as easily because this area is becoming compromised. But what's really cool is that there's now, you know, therapies that are starting to recognise that this area of the brain is so critical. When we look at things like TMS, so transcranial magnetic stimulation that's applied usually across the prefrontal cortex areas. And that's enhancing plasticity

and then helping people who've got treatment resistant depression start to overcome some of those ruminations that, you know, these very embedded thought patterns and helping people as well, that, you know, getting their, you know, decision making back online. It's the tough part, really. But once, you know, you start gearing up the brain once again, that that's going to you help people make those actionable life changes that then helps them in the future and, you know, alter their behaviors. It's, thank you for that. It's such an interesting equation to think about the way in which behaviors and, you know,

mechanism of action and agonism and all these things work. Like sometimes I go down these rabbit holes and then I start reading into these things and I start wondering, like, are we ever true? going to understand mechanism of action. Like it just seems so complex. Like there's so many variables. And it's like, can we even measure all these variables? I know that's kind of a broad question, but are we going to, do you think that we're getting closer to thoroughly understanding mechanism of action in some of these, some of these experiments in clinical trials? I think that, you know, we're just really scratching the surface in so many ways.

Right. I think that there's, you know, the preclinical science that people are doing, with rodents. I mean, there's some amazing research coming out. And I'm always reading these awesome papers and, you know, they're looking at like prefrontal cortex spine density of neurons being measured in a mouse brain. And these little mice are getting given like psilocybin, like cool stuff coming up like Alex Kwan's lab, where, you know, he's actually measuring these over time and looking at dynamic spine changes. I'm like, that's wicked. But then I'm also like, there's this whole like old school of thought that's like, mice don't even have prefrontal cortex is.

It's not sort of an analogue. It's just not as, you know, highly developed as the human brain. So in a way, we're looking at it through a really reductionist lens to be able to say, well, this neuron is changing a bit. But that, what then impact does that have on, you know, higher cognitive functions of, you know, humans who are experiencing, you know, such a more, complex architectural, you know, environment that they are, you know, experiencing with all these different emotions and feelings and memories. So, you know, there's, you know, going from that

sort of microscopic and then also going to your brain imaging where we're really starting to understand, you know, the functional implications of, you know, how behaviour is changing, all the dynamics that are happening in the brain. It's all depends on how it's being measured. I mean, like you can get these incredibly high-powered, like MRIs now. So magnetic resonance imaging. And they're like, look at this. It's like 12 Tesla.

And you're like, cool, that's going to give you a really, really detailed static view of like a picture of somebody's brain. But still then the functionality, if you're looking at functional MRI, it's still like, you know, it's actually associating blood flow changes. So you're not even looking at neurons and you're just looking and sort of being like, oh, a hemodynamic response change. So it's not measuring in the same way. And then you've got these other texts like, you know, M-EG, which is like EEG,

but kind of, you know, souped up a bit and measure all these different brain oscillations. And everything is just changing all the time. like you're learning new pipelines, there's new engineering patterns, and there's new types of sensors that you're using to measure. And you've got all this happening in, you know, the academic sphere. But then you've also got, you know, clinical trials where when it comes down to the clinical trials, although you want to run an innovative clinical trial, it can't be that innovative because you need everything to be really rooted into, you know, FDA standards.

So, you know, when I'm advising on clinical trials, I'm like, let's not go too far here. The paper that came out last week that I almost like cheered for because it was saying that human plasma BDNF, which we all love BDNF, because it's brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It's like miracle growth for our neurons. But the way of measuring it, I mean, it's cool to do it in the brain of rats and mice because you can literally, you know, look at the brain, drink it out, like mush it up, measure things. You can't do that with humans. So they're doing peripheral measures, which is blood BDNF, so what's coming out, you know, from our periphery. And then, you know, and now they're having the realization that, yeah, that's not a very good measure because it turns out BDNF circadian, it gets made not just in

the brain, apparently some of it comes from the liver. And, you know, it's one of those things where we have all these great ways of measuring things in an animal preclinical or non-clinical model, but then when you get to the actual human clinical side, the translation is just completely lost or, you know, flimsy at best. It's such a great answer. Thank you for that. It just runs the gamut of human emotions. Like it's so exciting in so many ways. And to read some of these papers, it is mind-blowing to be like, oh my gosh, what could this mean? Well, it could mean all of these things. And on one hand, it's so exciting. But on the other hand, you're like, what about the person that's bipolar or this

person that has this particular disease? Like, we can't even test it in them because there's too much liability there. You know what I mean? Like we have all this promise, but too much liability. It's such a fascinating time to be alive. Yeah. It's totally when you think about the exclusion criteria for these clinical trials because again like you don't want I mean this is just across the board in clinical trials in general you don't want to be able you know you don't want your drug to fail so you want to restrict during the clinical trial to make it as clean as possible in terms of you know variables that could potentially influence the the outcomes I mean I think about things like not just psychedelics, but also when we think about things like the GLP1 agonists that

are being used for obesity treatment, so many of the studies that were done on a ZemPEC excluded people with depression. And that actually cuts down a large number of people, because we know from research, I mean, the research that I was doing is with nutrition, that if you're eating a diet that's got a lot of these ultra-processed junk foods in, it actually makes you depressed, at least if you're a rat. But there's direct implications as well that individuals who have poor diets do have poor and mental health. And then you're excluding them from effectively taking a drug that could not only have knock-on effects of you know, the weight released and, you know, loss of, you know, body fat. But also then they're like,

oh, psychiatric effects, these people seem to be, you know, feeling better in themselves. And now there's all this interest as well about, you know, substance use disorders as well. And, you know, trying to, you know, look at it in that effect. And I'm like, you know, come on, guys, this is like, you know, there are food addiction traits in many people who are overweight. you know you're you're like recalibrating the body and the brain to an extent that you know maybe when people start feeling better they don't want to comfort eat as much and then their diet improves and then they start feeling even more better it's like a nice vicious cycle that's you know going to help people yeah i think that that's well said i the idea of patterns and

getting stuck in patterns whether it's the inner dialogue or or it's the eating habits or there's so much to be said about it. I want to stop and recognize our friend Thomas Hutchison. He's coming in from Facebook. And he says, I find it really interesting how randomly SSRIs and SNRIs affect neurodivergence and how things like THC, CBD, and codeine when responsibly used can almost balance the body's chemistry, especially for those with automatic nervous system dysfunction. And in some cases, like in paroximal, arterial fibrillation,

SSRIs and beta blockers can worsen and lengthen symptoms. Could you touch on the nervous system reset function that some hallucinogenics are said to have like eBoga? Okay. So that's quite a big question and there's a lot going on there. So, I mean, to think about it, when people are experiencing depression and anxiety and also, you know, that is also, you know, manifesting these psychiatric symptoms, your mood disorders associated with individuals with neurodivergence as well, because, you know, it's stressful of people are having to, you know, undertake mask, you know, masking behaviors, leave people fatigued.

And, you know, trying to, you know, control your day-to-day life can leave you at this sort of heightened state where, when we think about the autonomic nervous system, there's two sides of it. So we've got our sympathetic nervous system, which is our fight or flight. And then we've got a parasympathetic, which is our rest and digest. And these two sort of work in sort of harmony. But for many people, particularly those who've experienced trauma or stress, anxiety, chronic stress, you've got a lot of sympathetic activity. And I think that there's this recalibration that can happen with people where,

you know, with psychedelics as well. It's, you know, the, the surge of neuroplasticity associated you know, it's starting to understand your feelings a lot more and, you know, that sort of oneness that you start to feel from the classic psychedelics, like, you know, I'm speaking from more of a psilocybin than Iboga. I've studied Ibergain, but, you know, from, from, from more of a clinical standpoint understanding around psilocybin that, you know, it is helping individuals, you know, put that, you know, behaviours more into perspective, sort of a general feeling, more of well-being. There's also been, you know, studies where they're starting to, you know, understand from say like Michael Bogan-Schultz's work, that, you know, substance abuse disorders, alcohol use disorder is, you know, greatly reduced following, you know, these treatments with psilocybin.

in and knowing that these kind of behaviours as well are usually coping behaviours to deal with, you know, the stresses of daily life. And in a way as well, they are part of that cycle that tends to make things worse. But then if you're starting to remove those elements from your, behaviour, from your daily life, that then they're having an additional knock-on effect of, you know, helping to restore that sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system balance and getting your autonomic nervous system realigned. I can't speak much to like beta blockers really. I mean, I have taken them in the past. It's like for me, they're great for you know, taking that autonomic edge where it's more like the effects where you've got the, you know, the sweaty palms,

sites and you get the shakes and you know they they annihilate that they also annihilate my ability to like walk upstairs because my heart can't get up but it's you know that they they're obviously effective in terms of the physiological symptoms of stress and removing you're like the heart you know palpitations that people can experience the high high blood pressure but you know speaking from you know my my knowledge around there that they don't have as much of an effect on the psychological component that is such a play when it comes to these kind of experiences and conditions that people have. Great answer.

I don't know that I've ever heard the term reset and neuroplasticity together, but it makes such perfect sense to start thinking about, and maybe people should be talking more about that and linking the two together. in the midst of a psychedelic journey and a difficult part of the trip, which you're experiencing is neuroplasticity in real time. You know, maybe that's why it's so difficult because all of a sudden, your brain's like, okay, let's try and process information over here. Let's try it over here.

And I would also explain why you're able to see things in a third-person point of view or at least in a different point of view on some level. Like it makes me excited to see those two things coming together. And I know it might not be super scientific to say that's how you feel neuroplasticity. But I think it helps. If we can start talking in terms that people understand, we're starting to bridge that gap of ineffitability or whatever that word is called.

Yeah, I can never like pronounce it. I'm like, it's just like oceanic violence instead. The other ones are just, there are a lot. But it does make sense. It's like during the trip where people are like, oh my God, I'm like, you know, visual distortions, but things also start to, you know, when people say like, oh, the sound is intensified, like the, you know, how they're really, you know, experiencing these new aspects of behaviors and,

and like, cognitions and putting things together in like a new light. I mean, I used to work a lot on the process called memory consolidation, which is, it's kind of fallen from, from faith. in terms of the neurobiology of it. And it was really cool in sort of, well, in sort of 10, 15 years ago, people were like, oh, remember we're in consolidation. It's going to like solve everything. But thinking about it from more of a therapeutic point of view as well,

it's like it's that destabilization of a memory that drives a behavior. and when you re-consolidate it. So by destabilizing it, you can then add information to it. And I think this is a lot of how psychedelics are working. And this is one of my many soapboxes that I like to get on. But it's that process where you could add in information to what is essentially a very core, you know, poignant, often painful memory of a trauma that is then driving a lot of behaviours and being able to update that with the new information that you are aware of,

but it just doesn't seem to stick. And for people, I think, with, you know, conditions like PTSD or complex PTSD and have had trauma, traumatic experiences, that being able to update those very pertinent core memories that could be potentially driving number of their symptoms, which are then becoming stronger and stronger through that association. Being able to start to break that association is really at its crux of then being able to update it and take some of that emotional component away. So people can be like, oh yeah, that happened. But I'm not having flashbacks about it anymore. I'm not having those hugely negative reactions that are making it such a important aspect of my life that's having a negative impact.

Instead, it's making it so it's just part of you that you're like, it's okay. That happened. It's like having a scar and you're like, sorry about that scar. This is what happened. but not having the emotional component to it. I think that's something that psychedelics are going, in terms of the therapeutic aspect of them, I think it's such a core component of it.

Yeah, I agree. It's that integration process. And sometimes we look back at some of the most traumatic events in our lives or even some generational trauma that you can look at that was never dealt with. And we're just, here, you hold on to this now. Okay, I can't fix it. I'll give it to my kid to hold on to.

You know, and it just stays in there. And you're like, I don't even know why I feel like this, but I hate it. You know, and when you could sneak up on there and look at it without shame or guilt and just hold it for a little while, it's like, okay, I can stare into this thing. And you know what? It's a scar, but it's got a cool story behind it. You know, maybe there's something I can do with this thing. It's interesting to think about it from that aspect.

Yeah, and I also think about, you know, with like processing, like, somatic experiencing. I think that, you know, one of the aspects of psychedelics is that almost it changes the modality of traumas. The, you know, it's almost like it's shutting off your brain and being like, oh, hey. So now let's just listen to like your knees or, you know, your womb or something. You know, it's that body part that you almost, this is like, you know, psychologically that you shut down and you don't listen to, you know, certain pain that you've experienced. And when I think about, you know, with somatic things that, you know, cortisol is so, you know, it's produced by your adrenal glands that are just by your kidneys and, you know, it's flooding into your pelvis at all times because that's where it's produced.

So that's going to be where it is kind of concentrated as well. And then, you know, when you're doing somatic exercises that people tend to feel like, oh my God, like, you know, I feel like a release in my back. I feel a release across my abdomen. And it's those physical feelings that, you know, through somatic experiencing, you don't even have to bring up the trauma. It's just, you know, those physical sensations that are being, you know, reintegrated and understood. And almost like there's, you know, with Peter Levine's work on somatic experiences, that you're completing that trauma cycle that we never get to complete. when we experience stressful experience, you know, we have a stressful experience.

We just, you know, swallow it down and just be like, oh, God, you know, I'll think about that in, you know, several nights time and it'll wake me up and I'll just, you know, swallow it back down again. But it's that completion of the, of the experience that our body needs to process. And I think that psychedelics for people with very complex traumas, they're helping people really. and really close that circle of trauma to, you know, be like, okay, I've dealt with it now. And my body has dealt with it. And you know, that the link between the mind and body, I think, has been so overlooked. And I think that psychedelics are something that's really shaking up that area as well. Yeah, I agree.

It's really well said. I'm reminded of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, like the Four. and, you know, how how our language in our state is closely tied to our behavior and the way we see ourselves and our body on some level. There's some really deep ties that have gotten away from us. Like maybe our body is a direct reflection of how we feel about ourselves or how we see ourselves on some level or the patterns of our thought on some level. We don't really talk about that too much. Yeah, agreed. I think that we, you know, just as a as a culture.

There is a lot of us just, you know, swallowing things down and just being like, this is something that, you know, I'm just going to try and ignore and just get on with things. And we have so many wounds that we take forward in our lives and we don't let them heal. And I think that that's when, you know,

the manifestation of mental health conditions start to arise. And again, it is so important that, we start to acknowledge that just treatments with say an SSRI or an SNRI, they do increase neuroplasticity to an extent, but it's not in the same way that it's been shown with these like rapid acting antidepressants like ketamine but also with psilocybin and starting to understand more about how these compounds are actually affecting the brain.

You know, the effects are so profound and so quick. And that's when people need it. It's not like, oh, you feel like crap. Like you're having a mental health crisis, take these pills. You know, they've got a black box warning on them for a reason that they can make you feel even worse. And they've got, you know, horrific side effects associated with them, you know, emotional numbing, like lots of libido, like, you know, just generally feeling completely gray in like a zombie. And they're like, well, you know, just deal with that that it might kick in in about three, four weeks. We'll just, people need treatment now and, you know, they need treatment that lasts. Yeah. Sometimes I got a copy of the

DSM and sometimes I'll just read that and be like, man, what is this? This is a bunch of people getting together and just on some level allowing for the sickness of society to continue to happen. Like it seems like so much of the illnesses that we have are inflicted by the culture. Like when you see people that are ill, maybe it's something that they have that's a generational or it's environment, or it's, it's something that's in their genetics. But I can't help but think it's it's it's, it's partly the culture, you know, and I think of this great book by guide to board called the spectacle of society. And he talks about that, you know, it's the, it's in a, in a world that is, how is the quote go? I'm going to, I'm butchering a little bit, but it's something along the lines

in a culture that is sick, the most well-adjusted might be the sickest. You know, and like look at so many people around us that are struggling right now, and you can see it in their bodies, you can see it in their relationships with themselves and their family and divorce rates and, you know, children committing suicide and veterans communities. Like, I don't think that's a personal decision by any means. That's our culture. These are symptoms of a sick culture on some level.

Is that too much? Or do you think about that? No, I genuinely agree. I think that, you know, it's one of those aspects where people are just, you know, like, mental health is stigmatized. And it prevents people who need help, getting help, because of the stigma associated with, you know, going through something that's affecting your mental health on multiple levels. And it's just so difficult for individuals as well to be recognized that, you know, there's, that is happening to them. You know, I think about, you know, someone's broken their arm and you could be like, okay, they've broken their arm. Like, you know, they've got to take some time of work, maybe because they can't type.

Or, you know, we'll give them some time to, you know, have an operation for this. but then the mental health aspect of things is just completely overlooked. It's like, you know, there's this stigma associated with even admitting the, you know, you're having, you know, struggles with a situation. And I almost feel like, you know, there's this westernized viewpoint where, you know, you go to your family doctor or a GP. And like the first thing they say is like, oh, okay, so you're, you're having a rough time. How long has it been? And you're like, you know, oh, this number of

weeks, months or whatever. And they're like, okay, so I'll write you a prescription for an antidepressant. It'll be, you know, usually esotalopram or, you know, floxene or whatever. And they're like, just take the low dose to start with and then build it up and then, you know, just tell me how it's going in like a couple of months. There's no real like continuity of care. There's no you know, like, do you want to go, you know, why are you in that situation? Right. Like, sometimes they'll acknowledge, you know, be like, oh, so this sounds like it's situational because you don't have time with your job or you know, you're having some family issues.

But again, it's not treating the root cause. It's basically just putting a band-aid, just being like, there you go, be a functional human being again. Like, get to work, you know, sit at your desk. don't make a fuss, don't be too like vocal about things and just get on with it. And I think that it's a crying shame, to be honest,

that that's the way that our culture really works on these things. Yeah, it's, it kind of scares me about psychedelics right now too, because while there is so much promise in there, you know, it seems to me, we've spoken a little bit about, SSRIs, the culture, and the way in which we utilize symptom management. But I'm beginning to see on the forefront, like I talked to a lot of cool veterans groups, but it kind of seems to me like there's this commodification of veterans on some levels.

And I'm happy that a lot of them are finding ways in order to come upon PTSD and solve it. But isn't like the real reason these veterans are having PTSD because of like the war movement? Like it's great to solve these problems. But at the same time, like, hey, maybe. we should have more of a robust movement like in the 60s where we're like this whole war thing has to stop like look at the people coming back like that's the root cause of it I'm glad that people can face those problems but and then you start looking at like wow this veteran group probably gets a grant from the industrial complex and probably yeah just shut up about that part

but figure out this part like isn't this good enough you know it just seems like on some level psychedelics is being held in this medical container that is still symptom management what What's your thoughts on that? Well, I mean, when it comes down to veterans, I mean, I think that one of the aspects is that, you know, when veterans and when you leave your service of the army, effectively in the army, you've been conditioned behaviorally to respond in a specific way. And you have this, you know, hypervigilance because you're in combat zones and, you know, under threat. It's, you know, an incredibly, and we're just talking about the autonomic nervous system. Like these are people who are in, you know, sympathetic because they're like fight or flight, literally. And, you know, they've got their, you know, teammates around them as well, squads.

And, you know, they're seeing things that are, you know, incredibly challenging psychologically. And, you know, they don't have appropriate, you know, psychologists there to be able to unpack that. And then when they've come to the end of their service, they're retired and they're just, you know, released into society, which they're not prepared for. And this is what I find, you know, when I've spoken with veterans, is this, you know, this heightened threat that they're, you know, they've been conditioned to always be hyper alert and hyper vigilant. you know, okay, so yeah, that's really helpful when you've been, you know, in Afghanistan or, you know, that situation. But, you know, you're now in, you know, downtown San Francisco or, you know, you're just in, you know, London or Toronto. Like, you don't need to be in that hypervigilant state all the time. And this is why it's, well, you know, then they're having this adjustment issue coming back to, to, you know, a world.

that they've been not part of in a way. And I see that that is potentially, you know, really stemming a lot, you know, when we look at veterans and, you know, they do have not only like high rates of PTSD, alcohol use disorders. And then also, you know, people who've been exposed repeatedly to, you know, blast injury, like, you're, just from, you know, gunfire and, you know, the brain. injury that can be set up in place by being exposed to like shock waves from gunfire. So many rounds of gunfire.

It's like right close to your head. Your brain's going to get shaken up a bit. And that we then know that there's that ongoing impact that your traumatic brain injuries are hugely prevalent in the military and have a huge impact, not just, you know, through. if you've had a concussion, but sub-concussive impacts as well, that it's affecting your brain's function, you know, how it's connecting together, and, you know, how you're able to form new behaviours and integrate, again, into, you know, a society that you've not been part of for a period of time.

And that that's then, you know, an adjustment that people are making as well. And then the mental health downstream, you know, their struggles, that people are experiencing. It's like, it's not surprising that these individuals are in these situations. And I think that, yeah, there's a lot of, you know, push in military veteran groups for the access to psychedelics as there was with cannabis as well.

And I think again that it may be very beneficial for these individuals. I don't think it's a, you know, a panacea. It's going to solve everything. But it might be one of those things where people are able to find some closure and that reset again that they need to be able to help them function without these, you know, ongoing stresses in life

that is affecting their mental health. Yeah, it's such a pertinent time for it to be looking at these situations and wondering how we can change it and just doing a deep dive on on what the good, the bad and the ugly is. We have, we got another question coming in from our friend Clint and he says, can you share a personal or professional moment where the potential of psychedelic therapy to heal emotional wounds was most vividly illustrated to you? I think that it's really been, you know, I like to listen to a lot of people's anecdotes. I mean, that's could be something that I've found has been, you know, really rewarding for me and understanding.

And, you know, I think there's some clinicians who are doing such amazing work out there. One of the clinicians that, you know, I've spoken with in the past, Peter Hendrix, at University of Alabama, Birmingham, he does a lot of work with individuals who have, substance abuse disorder. And I'm about him telling me that, you know, that these are people who've been just taking drugs and they don't want to do it anymore. You know, it's the addictive cycle that's reinforcing it.

You know, that they have, you know, literally failed all, you know, other treatments. And they're getting onto a clinical trial and being able to use psilocybin in a clinical setting has had phenomenal effects in terms of their ability to stop using. And I think that that's just really, really profound. And I think that it's shown as well in the research studies that are being demonstrated as well,

that people are looking at days of abstinence or days of, you know, reduced drinking behavior and just seeing these huge shifts in, you know, people who are on the, you know, DSM, diagnoseably, you know, these effects, you know, alcohol abuse disorder, and they're just seeing such huge shifts. And I think that's, you know, really, really profound

and really important that these are, you know, happening. I love talking to clinicians about what they're doing with their studies as well. I'm like, I don't know, like, tell me. I want to hear about, you know, not so much. I don't really like hearing about people's trips. I'm like, it's kind of like listening to people's dreams. I'm like, they're all sort of like, I'm like, that's really nice. That happened and it's obviously very meaningful for you.

I don't understand the core importance of it. But yeah, I think that the aspect is more the integration afterwards, what that meant, what that means to people, how that's then integrated into their life and the behaviour change that can be evoked from that experience. I think that's the core aspect where you unpack it and then start to repackage it back together again and see people really putting their life back on the line.

I love it. Thanks for sharing that. I have this fantasy that, like, you know, in my mind, I think it's fair to say that society's run on drugs, like whether it's alcohol or caffeine, like we sanction drugs and like our culture runs on it. We've been running on like caffeine and alcohol for a long time. And it's such a strange relationship. Like we, even in the states where you say, oh, we have drugs and alcohol. Like, why do you, isn't alcohol a drug too? Like, why are we separating that, you know?

And it's, and there's all these problems around alcohol abuse. And we see the effects of that particular drug does to an individual, to a family, to when people are driven to excess about it. And I'm just in my mind and my dream and my fantasy, I'm like, what if we just switched alcohol for psilocybin? You know, what if we switch these drugs that tend to make us forget about the pain and then feel bad after to drugs that make us feel bad now and then we feel good after? You know what I mean? Like, you know, like maybe we can. Like, and why not?

Like, I see it happening at the forefront talking to you, the clinicians, a lot of the veterans, a lot of the people that I speak to is like, yeah, there is kind of this shift happening. Is that too, is that too, um, Paul. to think that we could switch up and like just run on a different set of drugs and if if if why not psilocybin? I mean, I think that you know it's it's it's it's like when you are I remember reading about where you know they had a wedding and the people at the wedding were just like we're not going to do alcohol at a wedding because no like nobody needs alcohol at wedding like that's where the fights start and there's always the sloppy drunks and the crying and then the fights and it's you know nobody

has a good time really it's but yeah maybe just microdose your way through the through the wedding and just make everything like nice and sparkly and make everyone just really you know warm and fuzzy and having like a you know just taking the the edge off all the the social requirements of of these sort of large events i mean i do think as well that you know there's alcohol is you know it's so accepted by society but when you think about the number of deaths that it causes, and not just through, you know, alcohol abuse, but, you know, people, you know, driving cars, intoxicated, you know, people, you know, getting into accidents, intoxicated.

And it's just sort of being acknowledged as part of society that, you know, it's just alcohol and, you know, going to, you know, wine, exceptions at conferences, people who don't drink. And I think that as well with, you know, looking at the shifts of, you know, how it's moving now that more and more people are embracing sobriety because, you know, they've realized that the mental health implications and the health implications of overconsumption of alcohol, you know, it's just detrimental to your, you know, mental health. It's detrimental to your health in general. Like, we don't need people having

alcoholic fatty liver disease. We don't need, you know, individuals, you know, it's avoidable. And I think about, you know, horrific anxiety that people experience I have, like, you know, an event and you just have that like one too many and you're like, oh God, did I really say that?

And, you know, I just think that, you maybe make it so it's less expected in social situations and, you know, start to embrace, you know, other aspects. I'm not sure whether, you know, you go to a sort of wine reception mixer and everyone's, you know, just given a sort of mushroom at the start and being told, you know, we'll kick in about 30 minutes. I'm like lemon tech be like yeah some ginger in so it might like gut rot

I think that people might have a much nicer time and there's probably you know a much more meaningful connections made as opposed to the your social lubricant that is alcohol or how it is portrayed to be. It's so true.

It's such a great point. I'm hopeful for it. And I see it happening on some level. I try to foster in the new world by creating it. So that's kind of what I do as well. It's like, I'm going to do this instead. It kind of brings up this idea of no tropics too.

Like there seems to be this new class. Well, it's probably been around for a while. But if you look at some of the Racedam family or some of these particular, like, phenobut that works on the gava receptors, and there seems to be sort of this class of drugs or novel compounds or peptides even that are allowing people to maybe elevate their awareness but also their cognition on some level. What are your thoughts on these new no tropics coming out?

And might that be the biological answer to the problems we have? Yeah, I mean, I think that at the moment, the neutropics, it's a really fascinating area. I just think that the problem is that it's going through more of the nutraceutical pathway, so it's very unregulated. So people can be purchasing these and they don't really know what's in them, which is definitely an issue. When I think about proper neutrophics, I'm like, oh, you know, like the sort of stuff

that, you know, fighter pilots take, they just keep them very stimulated and aware. You think about caffeine. I mean, caffeine is a cognitive enhanced. I mean, it's really, really effective. I mean, we don't all need to be taking medaphanil. But, you know, you want that laser focus for that piece of work that really needs to be in. But, you know, just take some methanol.

And there's also the misuse as well of stimulants, I think, or you know, adderol and, you know, how people are utilizing these, these drugs that are, you know, there for people, you know, really with ADHD to help them recalibrate their, their brain so that they can, you know, increase their focus. But, you know, there's then the, the grain market associated with these, like, drugs that people take them because they are performance enhancers in a way. And, you know, I think that, there's going to be room for these neutrophics. I think again that they're going to have to be properly,

clinically studied if you're going to use them for an actual condition. You know, say somebody's got Alzheimer's disease, what can be administered in that situation that will help stimulate memory formation and access, looking at the colonelergic system, I'm helping people pay more attention to the environment around them. So then they're able to encode those memories that bit more efficiently. But yeah, there's obviously a lot that's available.

And from my work as well, it's like people are like, oh, what can I take to make my brain function better? I'm like, oh, you know what? It's going to sound really boring. Omega 3s, brain cells really need those. they're really good for keeping your neurons like well, well-oiled and, you know, able to form new connections. You really want those. And it's kind of a bit boring.

But, you know, taking your B vitamins, getting some coline in there. I mean, it's the precursor to acetar coline. So it's like, eat your egg yolks. But, you know, these are things that can all be. you know, adjusted through diet. And also I think that one of the key aspects for me is, you know, getting people off those, you know, the ultra-processed foods. I mean, they're effectively refined to, you know, the degree of drugs. And there's lawsuits coming out at the moment that people are using, you know, we used to say big pharma, these like big food. You know,

literally designing these foods, which we can kind of put in inverted commas, they've been, you know, they've been designed in the same way as like nicotine almost, that, you know, they're addictive. You don't feel satiety on them. You just want more regardless. And that's just like, that just really scares me. And I'm like, you know, all about getting off that aspect of these diet and lifestyle. trying to embrace this more sort of holistic, eating real foods, foods that are a food, not a

pre-packaged situation that you just can microwave or just eat out of a packet that has no expiration date on it. And you're getting off those, often people see their cognition improve because it's causing, you know, them to, their brain's less inflamed. Their neuroplasticity increases because they're eating better and, you know, they're getting more nutrients and, you know, anti-inflammatories, antioxidants, rather than taking these all as like supplements and pills, you know, it's like getting rid of the thing that's, you know, causing this damage to then allow the body to and brain to reset and start to, you know, function adequately and then proficiently again.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It really helps understand that we're all parts in this giant system. When you take a holistic approach to it, like diet and exercise and maybe some of these supplements that you can use that we're going to help out the also. There's no magic bullet in one of them. If you just focus on one of them, you might get a little bit better, but you've got to work on that whole system, right, in order to really function and have a better relationship with yourself and in others out there. It's fascinating to me to see that. What are you like you,

you have done an incredible amount of work and you have an incredible appetite and you're very curious about all this work that's happening out there. What's on your radar right now? Like one of the things that you're most excited about when it comes to, I don't know, biopharma, drug development, psychedelics or clinicians or what are you super psyched about right now? I've been finding real great interest in the non-holucinogenic neuroplastogens that are designed off of the scaffolds, usually triptamine scaffolds that are similar to psilocybin or silicin, and how they've been chemically edited technically to alter how they're binding to receptors in the brain and understanding the different pathways of how they are like activating these neurons and you know activating receptors downstream to really you know get rid of so much of the psychedelic aspects of the consciousness changing aspects are reduced but the neuroplasticity

aspect is still there and i don't think that these are you know, psychedelics. I don't, I don't want to say they're like psychedelics minus the psychedelic. I want to say that they're a new form of, they're a new class of drugs. And, you know, they are separate from the psychedelics, because I do think that the psychedelics are going to have an important place in therapy for individuals. It's like horses for courses. But I, I think that there's, you know, the potential of these novel compounds, we call them like new chemical entities, to, you know, be able to unlock, like, aspects of neuroplasticity without the changes to consciousness to potentially then have

beneficial effects for neurological conditions or for, you know, neurogenerative conditions. And when you think about as well that there are so many people that, you know, are currently in the exclusion criteria for psychedelics, you know, there's individuals who, you know, can't potentially use them because, you know, when you think about someone who said with Alzheimer's disease, there is the risk of, you know, psychosis. Same with Parkinson's disease. You know, these are neurodegenerative conditions. But, you know, one of the aspects is that with a, with a brain that is, you know, struggling. on multiple points and multiple counts that, you know, that consciousness changes caused by psychedelics could have, you know, risky downstream effects. What if, you know, you can administer somebody these neuroplastogens in a controlled way and help them to, you know, rebuild those synapses that are being lost, helping them to, you know, form, you know, rewire the,

around the neurons that are being damaged by disease states, I think that that's really important. And for people as well that, you know, have, I think it could be sort of a almost maybe like out sort of adjusted entry into psychedelics as well for people. You know, potentially you've got somebody who said like, like, you know, we've got these short acting psychedelics. Some people have your mental health conditions, but don't want to, you know, necessarily, you know, experience a six-hour psilocybin trip

or a 12-hour, you know, LSD trip. Like, you know, there's a, you know, a larger amount of expense associated with that just from having the therapists and medical staff on hand to be able to do that in a clinical setting. But if you've got something that's not altering your consciousness, you know, potentially that you could just take it and, you know, or go in for, say, a one to two hour, you know, almost like a ketamine treatment, but with a much more potent psychedelic that is able to do its consciousness altering aspect in one to two hours and then have your therapy session, say, the next day or straight afterwards almost, that it's becoming more and more efficient. And although it sounds, you know, like capitalism, I'm like, oh, you know, get as many in as possible

because we're talking about this profit margin. But it's also, you know, the accessibility that how I think the insurance company we'll look at it. So, you know, well, we can't afford for you, you know, to take this, this route because it is such a, you know, a burden financially. But, you know, you could go in for a shorter acting treatment. And I think that that's the way that it's going to be, you know, scalable to allow more people to be to be able to, you know, get the benefits of these, these new treatments. And I'm just really hopeful as well that the clinical trials are going to be run, you know, well with, you know, good measures. FDA is going to actually realize that, you know, their old paradigm of how they've been looking at, you know, clinical trials.

Psychoics don't really fit into the same way. but also that rigor that's associated with the clinical trials will show that there is going to be the benefits of these drugs and that they're going to be able to be accessed by more people so that more people will be able to experience the benefits. Yeah, it's very promising and there's a lot of applications that can be used for. If you look at maybe people that are in a coma or people that may have experienced, stroke on some level. But how do you measure neuroplasticity, though? Like if in some level, I think we touched on it earlier, like perhaps it is the difficult times in changing of consciousness that is neuroplasticity. Like, how do you measure neuroplasticity in a clinical trial? Is it like a EKG machine or like how do you even go about measuring that? Yeah. So many clinical trials at the

moment are using sort of scalable, you know, measurements of brain activity. So you can use like EG. Anyone who's ever writing EG experiment will tell you that it is a complete fath. Like you've got all these electrodes, you've got to stick them on the head. There's loads of them. You've got like, you know, sort of electrode goo everywhere. You can use the dry electrodes. They hurt. They're not very comfortable. So at the moment, a lot of EEG is being used at that sort of phase one stage where it's the early clinical trial and you can say like, okay, so there's a change here. There's also the importance that there's no neuroimaging biomarker of, say, depression. So you can't run somebody through an MRI, an femorrhry and say, you know, read out,

do the analysis and say, yeah, their brain is depressed because it doesn't exist. And that is, again, it's a complexity that we deal with that you've got to have a validated biomarker of improvement. So at the moment, clinical trials, we're not measuring neuroplasticity. What you're measuring is, you know, clinician reported outcomes. You're looking at the Madras or the Hamdi scores or. or the Hamilton anxiety measures, you're looking at, you know, effectively a number on a graph.

And you're looking at before, after, and a couple of other measurements. And that's what's being acknowledged, because it's almost like the added complexity of trying to also include all these additional measures that are a patient burden. I mean, I don't know if you've been in a MRI. They're claustrophobic. It's like being in a giant tunnel and it's noisy. And you're like, you know, lie back and just sort of sink of England.

Just acknowledge that it's just like making a lot of noise. And, you know, if you're doing a task in there as well, it's, you know, it's distracting. You can't move your head because, you know, you just have to like stay very still. And I think that it's a patient burden that, you know, is additional. And I'll go on to that. It's like a lot of people aren't, you know, actually, you know, compliant to be able to be neuroimaged, you know, if you've got any amount, it's a big old magnet, if you've got any metal in you, you're not going in there.

There's some horrific pictures on the internet of like, this is what happens when the, that somebody brings a metal chair into the scanner room. And it's like glued to the scanner. And so you can imagine, you know, if somebody's got like any, you know, any metal in them, you've got to like demonstrate that it's like non-magnetic and you're compliant. And so again, it's that additional patient burden.

I think there's a lot of call for the understanding of neuroplasticity. induced by psychedelics in the academic setting. I'm like, let the academics loose with this. They have, you know, these tools available to them in terms of neuroimaging. Like, they often get, you know, the absolute top, your newest scanners, newest technologies that can be applied in the best possible way. And they can do these, you know, beautiful academic studies that they can then publish in your nature.

and that's where the understanding lies. But in the space of it, in the place of a clinical trial, I think that, you know, it's getting these outcomes that are, you know, cost-efficient, accessible, reduced patient burden or subject burden,

and are the most informative for what you're doing at, you know, what you're trying to do. So I'm like, Don't overcomplicate it. Save the money. Just get more participants, more subjects, and, you know, and then, you know, do a really nice, clean clinical trial.

Don't go messing it up with, you know, some novel brain imaging. It's fascinating to me to get to hear that insight right there. I appreciate it. I mean, I am having a phenomenal time talking. you. I feel like we just started our conversation. And it's already been, I know. I, and the truth, I already have, like, a 15 more questions. I, I, you have to come back because I've barely got through a few of them. And I really enjoy talking to you. And I really enjoy your insight. And I think you bring a novel perspective and a fresh perspective to this whole space where I'm truly thankful for it. But as we

begin to land this plane right here, I was very hopeful that you could tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. If they heard our conversation, they want to reach out to you and they're like, I want her on my podcast. I want to interview her for a book. You know, I want her to speak at my event. How can they find you? So my website's amyrikel.com. So there's all contactability and things on there.

Ways of getting hold of me is pretty easy. If you go to my website, at the moment, yeah, I'm doing a lot of consulting in psychedelic space and, you know, drug development space. I love it. I love working with different companies. It's like super interesting being able to, you know, think about, you know, all the competitive intelligence of what's going on. And I feel like there are all these like people behind the scenes like me.

And we're like, yeah, we know what's going on. I'm hoping that 2025 as well is going to be some, you know, really great conferences as well. We've got the psych science in Denver, 2025. And I hope to be able to get to, you know, with the breaking convention as well in Exeter. And, you know, anyone, if anybody wants me to speak, please? Right.

Yeah, and hopefully there's, you know, going to be some really interesting, you know, clinical trial data coming out as well. So I think that there's more and more insights coming through and there'll be, you know, some phase two's wrapping up next year and some nice data for me to rip to shreds. Yeah, so it's been, it's been a trying 2024 and I'm just hopeful that, you know, 2025 is going to be, you know, a change for the better. I say that every year. But yeah, it's been, you know, I'm hopeful that the space is going to start to liven up again because I felt like we were in definitely the trough of disillusionment for a while

and that we're crawling our way out of that space. Yeah, I agree. I am looking forward to 2025 and it being a year of big discovery, and excitement and things being much better, I think that they will be. And I think you're going to be a big part of it, Amy. I really enjoyed listening to you on the psychedelic science. I enjoy checking out the research you're doing, and you're a phenomenal consultant and an awesome person to talk to.

And I can't wait for the next conversation we're going to have. But for everybody within the sound of my voice, if you enjoyed this conversation, reach out to Dr. Amy, go down to her website, check out all the things she's doing there. If you need a speaker, Ben Grinswig, I know your psych 2025. This is the girl you should be having speed there. Maps, you guys already know. Come on. Get her over there.

What are you guys doing? That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Amy, hang on briefly afterwards to everybody else within the sound of my voice. Hope you have a beautiful day and you find the courage to become the very best person that you can't. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.