TrueLife - Dr. David A. Salomon - The Codex Chronicles; Julian of Norwich

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Welcome to The Codex Chronicles… A professor’s Tale of Manuscripts.https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.comhttps://cnu.edu/people/davidsalomon/Dr. David A. Salomon holds a PhD in English literature from the University of Connecticut and an MA from the City University of New York. A specialist in the literature, religion and culture of the Middle Ages and Renaissance England, he most recently spent thirteen years as a professor of English at the Sage Colleges in Troy and Albany, NY. During his time there, he also served as chair of the Department of English and Modern Languages, director of general education, director of study abroad, chair of the Faculty Development Committee, faculty advisor for the student newspaper, and was the founding director of the Kathleen Donnelly Center for Undergraduate Research. He joined CNU as the inaugural Director of Undergraduate Research and Creative Activity in September 2017.His book on the medieval glossed Bible was published by the University of Wales Press in 2013. In 2015, he co-edited and co-authored a monograph, Redefining the Paradigm, which discussed new models for faculty evaluation to improve student learning. His new book, The Seven Deadly Sins: How Sin Influenced the West from the Middle Ages to the Modern Era, was published by Praeger in April 2019. He has published essays on everything from medieval mysticism to anger in the Bible, and has given presentations on teaching and faculty evaluation models at conferences, such as the Teaching Professor and the annual AACU Conference. Medieval manuscripts are perceived differently by the human senses compared to common text today, offering a unique and multisensory experience: 1. Visual Aesthetics: Medieval manuscripts, often handwritten and lavishly decorated, showcase intricate calligraphy, elaborate illustrations, and vibrant colors. The visual aesthetics of these manuscripts evoke a sense of artistry and craftsmanship that is distinct from modern printed text. 2. Tactile Sensation: The parchment or vellum used for medieval manuscripts provides a tactile experience as one feels the texture of the material beneath their fingers. This physical interaction with the medium adds a sensory dimension to reading and handling these historical texts. 3. Aged Scent: Over time, medieval manuscripts develop a distinct aroma, carrying the scent of antiquity. This aged smell can evoke a feeling of connection to the past and contribute to the overall sensory experience. 4. Historical Connection: Reading medieval manuscripts allows individuals to connect with the past in a way that digital or modern printed texts cannot replicate. The physicality of holding an ancient document establishes a direct link to the historical era in which it was created. 5. Auditory Silence: Unlike the electronic devices that accompany much of modern reading, medieval manuscripts invite a quieter environment for exploration. The absence of electronic buzz allows readers to immerse themselves in the silence of the written word. 6. Cultural Imagination: The experience of reading medieval manuscripts transports readers into a different cultural mindset, understanding the context in which these texts were written, interpreted, and appreciated. 7. Spiritual and Mystical Essence: For manuscripts related to religion and mysticism, the act of reading becomes a spiritual journey, as the physicality of the text and the esoteric content converge to create a unique spiritual experience.In summary, medieval manuscripts offer a multisensory encounter that goes beyond the mere act of reading. The visual aesthetics, tactile sensation, historical connection, and spiritual essence create a captivating journey that connects readers to both the words on the page and the distant world from which they emerged. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, we are back on Wednesday. I know what everyone's been saying. More David Solomon, the Codex Chronicles. We are here. We've got him back.

It's going to be a fascinating show. For those of you who may not know, I am here with the one and only Dr. David A. Solomon. We're doing the Codex Chronicles. He is an incredible author that's written a beautiful book, many books, but the latest one that I have read and we've gone into depth about is the Seven Deadly Sins. I highly recommend everyone check it out. He has been a teacher, a professor, a mentor, a leader for the last 30 years. He is the creative director at Christopher Newport University in Newport News, Virginia, and so much. where I'm going to kick it over to him to give him a little bit,

give himself a little bit more of a background for those who may not know. Dr. David, thank you for being here today. Maybe you can color in that background a little bit for people. Sure. Thanks, George. Thanks for having me back. So, yeah, I'm currently the director of research and creative activity, Christopher Newport University. We're near Virginia Beach, so on the coast here in swampy Virginia. And over 30 years as a professor of medieval literature, religion, and culture.

As you say, I've written four books, which the recent one is on The Seven Deadly Sins. And I'm still teaching, have my foot in the classroom here, teaching honors courses in our museum studies courses. And started out my, I guess, really kind of my professional career in graduate school by becoming just really, really interested in mysticism. and doing a deep dive into studying mysticism. I actually started an academic list serve. Remember list serves? For the academic study of mysticism, which was very popular at its time

until list serves went the way of the Dodo Bird. And over the years have done a lot of work with particularly the English mystics and then with some of the folks that are on the continent in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. We've been doing a really in-depth dive and providing a insight that I've got a lot of great feedback from the people that are very interested in. And today we're digging into Julian Norwich, you know, tumultuous times, the black death, religious upheaval and oneness. And she's got all these incredible ideas.

Maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, what was it that drew you to her? Like, what was it the first sort of relationship getting into that? Yeah. I mean, she really, Julian of Norwich, is one of the key English mystics of the 14th century. And probably, we think, the first female writer in English. Now, I say that with a caveat because there probably were earlier ones, but we just don't have them. So we should qualify that and say the earliest female writer in English that we have the text. of. We don't really know much about her. We don't even think her real name was Julian. She's named

probably after the church that she was connected with and lived from about 1343 until sometime a little after 1416. We're not completely sure of her death date. And you're right. I mean, she's living in a time of incredible tumult in England and through Europe in general. the black death, the impending reformation, which seemed to be just coming at the door. And she is an interesting case because as was the case with Marjorie Kemp, her mystical experience is really begun as the result of illness. She falls very ill when she's 30. and she's essentially on death store. A priest or an official of the church, I should say, probably not a priest,

comes to the foot of her bed and holds a crucifix up over her bed to give her the last rights. And she seems to begin to lose her sight and her feeling. She goes numb. But she gazes at the crucifix and she sees Jesus begin to bleed on the cross. And over the next several hours, she had a series of 15 visions. She had a 16th the following night, which then were written down. And in the Middle English text, they're called the showings of Julian of Norwich. And today, most people know the text of the divine revelations of Julianne Norwich.

Very popular text today continues to be. Although, interestingly, at the time, it was not. It basically had vanished. And it wasn't until 17th century when a group of nuns really kind of resurrected interest in it. But she has a lot of really interesting things to say about mysticism, about life in general, about living, which I think are good for us to touch on

and how she's still relevant today. Yeah, it's interesting. Her writing style is distinctive. Maybe you can discuss the use of language symbolism in her text and how they contribute to her mysticism. Well, I mean, her mysticism differs from some of the cases that we've already looked at in the fact that it is incredibly visual. Right. She sees these visions. She has these visions and it's a visual experience for her.

And the nature of that visual experience is really an interesting one because, over the past 30 years or so, as feminist study of female mystics has really become an important aspect of our understanding, there's a better understanding of what's going on with her. You know, I heard a paper once at a conference where someone made the analogy that her seeing Jesus on the cross at the foot of her bed was the equivalent of watching a movie. because she's watching this visual thing from her bed and he is above her just as a screen would be when you go to a movie theater. Remember movie theaters?

We used to go. Some people still do. But, you know, the nature of her life is really interesting because she did lead the life of an anchores. Right. And we've talked about this in passing, but have never come to a point where we've got a figure that really did leave this life.

And basically, in Anchoris is a woman, Ankerite is the male version, who was walled into a cell to live a life of prayer and contemplation connected to, physically connected to, an existing church. They were walled into their cells. They had no way to get out once they're in there. And so essentially, they are, well, they are, quote unquote, dying to the world. In fact, the mass that is conducted when they enter their cell at that point is a funeral mass to indicate that they are dead to the world. They are closing themselves off from the world. It is the extreme example of that. You can't get much further than that of sort of just basically locking yourself up in a room.

Although today it seems really extreme to us. I mean, there are a couple of folks who still live this kind of life. I mean, it's not publicized, so we don't know the actual numbers. But in the Middle Ages, there were records kept. And we know at the time that she was doing this, there were about 200 anchoress or anchorites in England around the time that Julian was living. And anchoreses actually outnumbered the anchorites. The females who did this outnumbered the male. who did this.

And it makes me think, because I've been thinking in the last couple of days, you know, we often talk about the fact that, you know, the world seems overwhelming at times, right? You know, the line from Wordsworth, the world is too much with us. It's tempting to say, you know, I'm just going to cut myself off completely. Of course, that was a heck of a lot easier to. do in the Middle Ages than it is today. Although it was there was there's an entire subculture of anchorites and anchoress and there's an entire sub cottage industry in academia studying anchorites and anchoress and looking at the rule that they lived by. They had their own rule that was

produced in the Middle Ages to kind of dictate the way they were to lead their lives as an as an anchorist or an anchorite. But I mean today, you know, there are times when I'm like, I just want to check out, right? You know, the old stop the world, I want to get off. But it's, you know, I was thinking about this last night in my own mind. And, you know, it's a charming idea. But for those of us like you and me, George, it would probably be torture. because we really thrive on interaction with other human beings.

And you, to a great degree, lose that if you're going to leave this kind of life. And I should qualify that. I mean, you are cut off physically from the world. Usually the anchores' cell would have had three windows, one to deal with mass and receive communion, one to receive food. and the other to either communicate with visitors or to give counsel to them. So we know, we've talked about Marjorie Kemp a couple of weeks ago,

we know that Marjorie Kemp actually visited Julian on one of her trips. She mentions her to go and to receive some kind of counsel from her. We're not entirely sure what the encounter was all about, but she records it in her book. Julian doesn't say anything about it in her book, but that's neither here nor there. So apparently Julian of Norwood for somebody who was known at that point, somebody so well known that Marjorie would

seek her out. But, well, I'll stop there for a moment. It's interesting. You know, Julian's, maybe we could talk about her revelations about divine love. Yeah. It's often seen as pioneering in the context of female mysticism. Definitely.

I mean, she is one of the earliest mystics and certainly one of the earliest English mystics to look at God as female, to view God as the mother. Right. And Carolyn Bynum Walker, who's a fantastic scholar, she has written multiple books. that all of them are just amazing. She has been on the staff at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. She's a history historian. But she had written a book.

One of her first books was called Holy Mother, Holy Feast, I think it's called. And it's about the role of food in these folks' kinds of experiences. And she often does focus, especially in her own. early work on the female mystics. I'm trying to get the title because I don't want to give you the wrong title, and I always forget. So go Google. Holy Feast and Holy Fast.

It's called Carolyn Walker B-Y-N-U-M. The Religious Significance of Food to Medieval Women. And it's an amazing, amazing book, as really all of her books have been. I've taught several of her books because they're just so incredibly insightful. But we're talking about now looking at God as a mother and looking at God as female. And of course there are lots of connections to the ancient religious traditions, ancient spiritual traditions, looking at the creator as female. That's not new, but it is new in the context of medieval Christianity. It is not something which had been picked up.

I mean, that the church fathers and the medieval religious writers and theologians certainly did not really embrace that idea with really one exception. Bernard of Clairvaux, who's writing in the 13th century, he did embrace the idea of God as mother. And oftentimes it's discussed and it's shown in art depicting Bernard, with God as mother. So there's one very striking statue. I believe it's a Bernini that has,

I think it's supposed to be Mary, from remembering correctly, breastfeeding, it's Bernard who's down at the foot of the statue, who's just, I mean, she's squeezing her breast and the milk is coming out, and it's kind of a bizarre image, spurting down and he's catching it in his mouth.

and being fed by her. And so this idea of God as mother is, it's not brand new, but it is new for us in England in the 14th century. I mean, pretty much, I mean, if I were going to outline her work, I mean, I would say that there are really six kind of things that she keeps picking up on. The one is a focus on divine love. She keeps coming back to that. God is divine love for her. It just, that's what it comes down to. The motherhood of God, as we mentioned, is a big thing.

She describes God's love in maternal terms as God is caring for his, her children in a way that is very maternal. The imagery that she uses is very motherly. She has theological insights, especially into concepts like sin and redemption and the nature of evil, that seemed to prove that she had some kind of an education here. you know again the humility comes in with these folks saying oh well i'm really unlearned well clearly she knew something um and her her take on sin is really interesting it's one of the most famous passages and i'll i'll get to that in the second um the fourth is universal salvation she believes in universal salvation god's love is going to eventually save us all regardless of what happens in the

and to us. Her experiences, the fifth thing, are deeply mystical. She describes her encounters with Christ and with the Trinity in very vivid, symbolic terms. And this gives a really mystical dimension to her experience. And then the final thing is hope and comfort. She's probably most famously known for one phrase, all shall be well. And she said that. She writes that in her book, All shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well. This kind of unbridled optimism that in the end, God's love would take care of us. The divine love would take care of us. The thing that I found really interesting is the way that her ideas persisted.

So one of my favorite poets, although separate the author from the poet, because the author apparently was a despicable person we now know, but was T.S. Eliot. And Elliot and the four quartets, which is an absolute work of genius, writes a lot about the English mystics. He's taking a lot from the 14th century English mystics and weaving it into the four quartets, which is basically his poem. about time and the nature of time and eternity and looking at at at really our existence, the nature of existence. So he quotes her, and this is in the final section of the poem,

which is called Little Gidding. And Little Gidding is a chapel town in England near Cambridge. And he had spent some time there, Elliot did. And this fourth poem, the fourth quartet, is called Little Gidding. And he begins one of the sections in the poem by saying, sin is behoveli, but all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. He's directly quoting Julian. She too says in her text, sin is behoveli.

And that's the word that we don't know, right, because we don't use it. And essentially, we can translate it into modern English. contemporary English as necessary. She says sin is necessary, but everything's going to work out. And Elliot picks that up, Elliot, who is himself, you know, not always the most optimistic of poets, picks that up in his poem here and says, you know, all shall be well. All manner of things shall be well. You know, and he does complete the poem at the end by implying that it will all come around. He says in the final section, what we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning.

The end is where we start from. It's a brilliant poem. I highly recommend it. It is very dense and not easy. But incredibly important. I mean, he's writing this in 20th century. of course, in the context of the tumult that we've gone through, right? I mean, two world wars and, you know, at the time that he's writing this, you know, the depression is looming and, you know, coming out of not that long ago then, the pandemic of 1918 that was experienced.

So you could see parallels. You know, you could understand why he might go to Julian in order to find himself some sort of reassurance. but I just I've always thought you know that when you read it out of context that line from Julian all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well initially when I read that years and years ago I thought it was kind of facile it's kind of simplistic but it really kind of drives at the heart of what she's talking about because it links directly to her concept that God is love divine love will take care of us that was a long talk. And what's true. And I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it was behovenly in order to thoroughly understand what we're coming from. It, um, your word of the day there.

It's a good word. It makes you think. And I, you know, it's interesting to, to talk for a moment, maybe about the relationship between mysticism and, and poetry. In some ways, it's a beautiful way to interpret the mystic tradition. and maybe one of the only ways to do poetry like that. Well, and so much of the mystical writing that we have, especially once we get into the Renaissance,

is presented to us as poetry. I think eventually we're going to get to St. John of the Cross and, you know, folks like that. And, you know, the connection between having that mystical vision and having that inspiration to write, there's certainly some overlap there, I think. You know, we often depict, inspiration as, you know, there's this bright ray of light that comes out of the sky and all of a sudden, oh, you know, you're inspired.

But that's the same symbolism and the same kind of image that we have for the mystics receiving their visions. You know, whether it's Hildegarde of Bingham or Julian of Norwich. They pretty much all look at it that way. And it's always looked at as being light, right? and again that connection between the divine light and divine love as somehow being interwoven yeah in some ways it harkens to the idea of the logos like a light language vision in some ways maybe that's the that's what philo was talking about when he says that the next logos will be a language to be beheld you know yeah well it i mean it is you know and that's the interesting thing you know when we looked at the cloud of unknowing right and even when we looked at at richard rle to some degree i mean

there the experiences there are internal right certainly julians is an external experience this is coming from outside of her body and affecting her and that's a little bit different and um it's an interesting kind of shift in how we understand mysticism to realize that now that inspiration, if you will, that vision can come externally and not come from within. I mean, Roel talks about having the fire of love in his heart. It's internal, right? Well, she's saying, you know, I see Jesus standing at the foot of my bed. He's right there. I'm having these visions. And that's a striking kind of thing because I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I think people, are more likely to relate and appreciate what Julian's going through and saying,

I'm having a vision, an external vision, than the bit where, you know, we'll roll here's music. Right. But it's inside his head because he asks somebody, do you hear it too? And they say no. Right. Now, Julian doesn't seem to have the sense of doubt that came with folks like Marjorie Kemp. When Marjorie had her experiences, her initial response was, oh, maybe it's the devil, I'm afraid. Julian doesn't seem to have that.

And I think part of that is because her whole concept of God is tied up in this idea that God is love. And because her initial experience is to see the bleeding Christ on the cross at the foot of her bed, I don't think that she goes through that period where she doubts the veracity of her vision. A Julian expert might know better than I do. I'm certainly no Julian expert whether she had those doubts. I don't know. To my knowledge, this is the only text we have of hers. There's a short version and there's a long version of the text.

So there are two different versions. There's a shorter version. And then she basically went back over and edited and expanded it. And there's a longer version. The longer version is something like six times the length of the short version. Most people are familiar with the shorter version. in some ways it seems to me when we look at these different mystics whom we've talked about in some ways they're analogous to a stained glass window in a church and we're getting to see

the spirit shine through them you know and it on some level you could see how some may think it was the devil if you see Jesus crying at the cross at your bedside like that could be a frightening vision and if you didn't have the concept of all as well god is love you would say well this is a manifestation of a devil trying to share it with it. And remember that people were taught and many are still taught today, that the devil can take any form. Right. And so the idea is, well, this is the devil trying to tempt me.

And especially because at someone's deathbed, this was a common motif. Right. There's a wood cut from the Middle Ages that I show in my heaven and hell class of a guy at his deathbed. And the devil is sitting on the foot of his bed playing a violin. in because the devil at his death is trying to grab his soul when he dies. And so there's not an uncommon idea. But as you say, it ties back, though, to Julian's inherent belief that all shall be well. Right.

She had an interesting idea about oneness, too. Doesn't she write about that in some of them? Yeah, I mean, there are certainly connections here to Plotinus and, you know, the earlier Greek writers. Um, I, you know, she, she certainly understands and appreciates the Trinity. And there's certainly plenty of, of symbolism of the Trinity throughout her work. But I do also believe that her concept of the divine is as one. Right. And, um, you know, that in some ways kind of takes her a little bit off course from the traditional kind of ideas that we see in, in Catholic mysticism,

particularly of the time. You know, she doesn't, she doesn't denounce or dismiss the Trinity. She believes it. She believes in it. But she ultimately believes that God is one. And that, and that that one, again, is love. It's fascinating to me to think about her gender and what it was like for her back in that time and the attitude towards the church and how that's kind of changed today. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what that, what the relationship with the church might have been like and how it's evolved.

all through today. At the time, I mean, you know, women were second class citizens, to be sure. I mean, the fact that you had decided to become an anchoress and chosen that life, the fact that maybe you had decided to become a nun and chosen that life certainly moved you up a little bit in society. It gave you, you know, a little bit more respect than you would have had probably. But, I mean, Marjorie Kemp goes from town to town and the men say, get out of here. We don't want you here. You're going to influence our women, and we need to keep them under our control. Now, we don't know about the transmission of her text in the Middle Ages, but as I said, it was in the 17th century that a group of nuns picked up the work, and it was published in the middle of the 17th century for the first time, really.

I think it was in the 1650s. And today, it is one of the most popular texts. amongst women's spirituality groups. If you go into any convent, as we all do, and, you know, force of habit and the kind of work that I do, I do frequent oftentimes, I'm in convents, and you go into their shops, they have got Julian Norwich's work there, and they're selling it.

I mean, it is a very important text for women today. You know, and we'd have to have somebody who is, of a different persuasion than you or I to be able to speak to the importance of that. It would be interesting to hear someone's take on that who is very enamored of reading Julian. And there are, I mean, there are books where you can buy books where you read a day of the, every day with Julian. It's like 365 days. They've divided up the work into chunks and you would read something every day.

I mean, there are people who use this text as a real devotional. today. Yeah. It's, it's really, it's beautiful and, in thought-provoking to think about the ways in which so many people that have come before us have so much wisdom that we have forgotten for so long. It seems that the mystic tradition, at least for me, and definitely for someone who has been a scholar of it, has learned so much from it. It seems like such a rich education that on some level, people aren't really getting to it. I think you're right. I mean, we are living, of course, as we often talk about in such a secularized world, that we tend to look at these things as being, I think some people dismiss them as being trite and silly. Right. Right. It's not, it's not rational. But, you know, I mean, as I often go back to, you know, that line from Jung who says, you know, it's just, it's paraphrase. It's kind of stupid just to think that the only existence is physical. It just doesn't make any sense, given our experiences in the world. And so, you know, I think these texts are all important. You know, whether they have, you know, and I think they're important two levels.

I mean, whether they have personal application for an individual reading them as far as devotional practice, or whether they're looking at them, as I do, from an academic perspective, in trying to understand the history of all of this. You know, I'm teaching my Bible as literature course this semester, and we're in the third week now. And that class is always a challenge because it is not a religion course. It's a literature course. We're looking at that text as a piece of literature and not as a devotional work. And so, you know, some students really struggle with separating that. And I understand that.

You know, they've lived their entire lives looking at that text as a sacred text, some more than others. And now all of a sudden we're talking about it as if it's just another story and, you know, being irreverent and looking at it from that perspective. So, you know, I think that there's something to be said about being able to yourself kind of disenfranch. kind of discern and separate your devotional self from your rational academic self, if you have one. Because, you know, I think I've told you this story before, years ago. I remember sitting, listening to an NPR interview with the foremost expert on Thomas Aquinas. And it was a great interview.

And at the end of the interview, the interviewer said to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, speaker, you know, I have to ask you one last question. You're Jewish. And he said, yeah. And the interviewer said, why haven't you converted? And he said, well, this is my study. This isn't necessarily what I believe. They're two different things. Now, for a lot of people, those can overlap. Right. Right. It's the distinction between theology and religious studies. Those are two different fields. Right. Religious studies is the study of religion the same way that, you know, bacteriology is the study of bacteria. Theology, however, is the study of something, the existence of which you already accept. It's in the name, Theo.

You accept that God exists if you're a theologian. That's a given. Religious studies doesn't start from that perspective at that point. It starts from nothing, right? We're studying these religions. And so, you know, that distinction is an important one, especially for, you know, for my students to understand. You know, and it's not to say that one approach is better than the other.

It's just to be aware of what you're doing, right? I mean, you know, I've oftentimes in these first three weeks in class when we're in discussions, have to stop and say, this isn't theology, right? So, you know, when we're talking about the Genesis text and the fall of Adam and Eve, don't tell me the serpent is Satan. It doesn't say that in the text. That's theology, right? That's an interpretation of the text that comes in way down the line from Christians.

When the text is written, and for the people for whom the text was written, the serpent was the serpent. They didn't understand that it's being Satan. And so we really have to be aware of, and we talk about this so much in our culture these days, right, being aware of our biases, right, of what we're coming in already believing and how that might impede our greater understanding. of a given topic. It's fascinating to think about it. It seems like so much of our meaning comes from where we begin at, whether it's theology or studies, right? Well, and I think for some folks, you know, it becomes, it's really difficult then to break

out of that. You know, I mean, as an example yesterday, so last night, we were looking at the Noah story, Noah in the flood. And at one point, the Genesis text says, that, you know, Noah was instructed to bring two of every animal and two of every bird and et cetera, et cetera, onto the ark. And I stopped and joked and said, I guess unicorns missed the ship. And one of my other students said, yeah, and dinosaurs.

And so one of my other students said, well, in my church, they teach that the monsters later on in Genesis are the dinosaurs. I'm like, okay, but that's theology. Right. But I do think, you know, for some, I mean, part of one of my goals in that course is to, is for students to gain some kind of what we call biblical literacy, right, to at least understand references if you hear one and not just sort of look glassy-eyed, which, I mean, some of them, and it's interesting because it's a combination of students who have had zero background on the Bible

and others who have grown up with it in whatever church they were raised in. And it is a part of their fabric. And, you know, I often wonder which of those students have the greater struggle in the course. Because there are struggles for both. But, you know, it may actually be harder to, because I'm asking those students who already have a belief system firmly in place to put that aside for a moment and look at this text stripped of that. And that's difficult for them to do. It's almost like you're asking them to give up faith. Not to give it up, but to set it aside maybe.

To set it aside and to put on a different pair of glasses tonight, right? Right. Look at it, look at it through this lens rather than the one that you're used to. And, you know, we do that so much in education with so many different things. But I mean, in this particular area, it's kind of easy to talk about because we have so many preconceived notions about, you know, what's going on in this book and what's going on in religion in general that you have to be open to new ideas and new interpretations. I mean, I told them last night about the apocryphal book of Seth. Seth is Adam and Eve's third child.

Once Cain kills Abel, God gives Eve a third child, Seth, which is in Genesis. And in the apocryphal book of Seth, when Seth has grown a bit, Adam sends his son back into the Garden of Eden to get some seeds. And Seth brings him back the seeds and Adam plants those seeds. And in the book of Seth, those seeds grow to be the tree that's cut down to crucify Jesus. Because the early church loved things to be full, to come complete, love to close the circle. and that closes the circle, right, that story. And when I tell that story, I mean, I swear there were a couple of kids in class who actually like gasped because they didn't know where I was going with it.

And then when I tell them that, you know, it becomes the tree that they cut down to crucify Christ. And then I draw on the board, you know, a circle with an arrow and say, you know, it all comes around, right? It's interesting to look at things that way. I just, I mean, it's what got me interested in studying all of this to begin with, right? it wasn't necessarily that it was part of my beliefs. But I just found it intriguing. Great stories. Yeah.

It's fascinating to think. If we were to go back and look at the medieval mystics or Julian of Norwich, how would they, do you think in their minds in your opinion, would they even be able to separate theology from religious studies? Or was that the beginning of it? Probably not because, I mean, for them, theology was existence right right there was no such thing as religious studies and there really was no

such thing as a secular world right i mean the world itself until we get really to the to the late middle ages the world itself is christian for these folks who are living in this world and that drives their daily life i mean you know i think we've mentioned once before if you look at at medieval towns in england i mean the center of the town is the church right i mean you know as opposed to the center of most cities today, which is our financial district, right? We've replaced what we worship, which is, you know, different podcast. But, you know, so I mean, the religious life just was, that was, that was it. Now, for some folks today, to be sure, who are extraordinarily devout or who lead a quote-unquote religious life, they still are living in that kind of a mindset. But it's an

increasingly few number. You know, I talked to my friend at the monastery last week, and he said he expects that by the end of the decade, they probably will have closed. They're just not getting enough new members in the monastery to keep it sustained. And in fact, two of the other houses in the United States have just announced that they're closing because they don't have enough monks there to run the place. Fewer and fewer people are choosing to lead. to go into that kind of a life for whatever reason you know i mean the catholic church has talked

about this for decades right the declining number of people who want to go into the priesthood it's you know and now some people will knee-jerk and say oh well it's because they don't allow them to be married yeah that's probably a big part of it but it's not the only thing you know and to really examine that would be kind of interesting yeah it's it is mind-blowing to think about it as a circle and the way in which the circle closes, you know, and, but, hmm. The writers love that idea of closure. Right. Of bringing everything back together.

I mean, if you look at, you know, just look at the Bible text and the, you know, the so-called Old Testament and New Testament, the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible. I mean, you know, the Christian Bible is explained as fulfilling a lot of what is in the Hebrew Bible and put together, there is a lot of that kind of closure. You know, you read a passage in the New Testament and you go, oh, that links back into the Old Testament. I could see where that's coming from and it ties back together. And again, it was all part of the early Christian church. And I always say this to my students and they kind of laugh when they realize what I'm asking them.

But, I mean, who were the people that they had to convert? I mean, it was mostly Jews, right, who would believe in this Old Testament, this Hebrew Bible for centuries. And it wasn't like all of a sudden you were going to say, you know that book you've been studying for all these years? Total crap. Read this book instead. So, you know, it was certainly a tactic that was taken by the early church to show how the one book fulfilled the other and how they could work together. Do you see any parallels between like the times of tumult when Julian lived and in times of today? Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

You know, it's why I think, you know, reading her is so popular. Right. It's, you know, we're living in pretty unsettled times. It seems like a day doesn't go by without something. You know, I was watching the news this morning before I left the house. And, you know, I mean, Julian says all will be well, but the top stories certainly don't tell you that, do they? You know, it was one bad thing after another. Now, granted, you know, the news, that's what they report, right? I mean, you know, you don't, you don't get the fuzzy-wuzzy stories in

the end of the news when they do those those human interest pieces, which are usually so syrupy that they're, right, they're almost unbelievable. But it is, you know, and I wonder how much of that is part of, as we've talked about before, the just the constant presence of technology in our lives and constantly being connected and hearing about all these bad things. You know, I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. We were talking about the, the supposed, and I say this, not as an expert to be sure, but the supposed increase in child abduction and sex trafficking. Well, is there an increase or are we just hearing about it more? Right. I mean, I don't know. You know, certainly, I got to imagine that if we asked our parents

or grandparents about it, they don't remember hearing about that when they were younger. Does that mean it didn't exist? It probably did. just they didn't hear about it. And so, you know, again, going back to that, you know, wordsworth, the world is too much with us. Sometimes it really feels like that. I mean, personally, I stopped watching the news the way that I used to. I was kind of a news junkie, and I've really cut that off.

My daily news now is pretty much confined to reading the New York Times every morning and and maybe watching one of the network nightly news shows, which is, you know, 20 minutes. I used to have CNN on in the background just as background, but I just can't do it anymore. It's soul-numbing. Yeah. You know, it really is.

I mean, you know, if you weren't despondent already, turn that on. You know, but I mean, it's true to some degree, right? And I mean, that's one of the things that I know a lot of things. therapist will actually recommend for folks who are really experiencing, you know, deep depressions. I mean, for God's sake, don't watch the news. That isn't going to make you feel any better. Yeah. Yeah, it's, and I echo the ideas of like, were these things happening?

You know, on some level, it's like, once you become aware of something, you can no longer ignore it. And maybe that, maybe for so long it was happening and just got to a point where we can't ignore it anymore. Like, this is a problem. What are we going to do about it? I don't know. We've got to figure something out. Well, I mean, it certainly does seem like we're coming to a point, right? I mean, you know, I talk about this a lot. I mean, you know, you look at it as a grand new world that's about to open. And, you know, you're the optimistic Hawaiian and I'm the pessimistic Jew from the Bronx. So, you know, I'm not for sure I agree with Julian that all shall be well.

I would like to believe that. I'm not sure that I do. I'm not sure that I can. And again, you know, it's given what we are witnessing every day. How can I believe that? But by the other, on the other hand, I mean, there are certainly people who, as I say, devoutly believe and would prescribe to that and say, oh, no, even as bad as things are, all will be well. It's like, well, you know, that's wonderful. and I have incredible respect for your belief in that.

It baffles me. I don't understand it, but I certainly respect it. And I think that's one of the things that got me really interested in studying religion when I was so young, is meeting folks who had that kind of devotion. And it just baffled me. It was like, how could you believe so unwaveringly that that was what it was? I just, with all of the bad,

things that happen in the world. And that's the interesting thing about Julian is that she says sin happens. It's necessary. Right. Right. You know, it, I mean, God says this in Genesis. We were looking at it last night, right? I mean, after the flood, when he says to Noah, you know, I'm not going to do that again, right? I'm not going to flood the world again and destroy the world. And that's when he promises the covenant and he says, I'll give you the rainbow as a symbol. So when it rains and you see the rainbow, you'll know that, oh, no, this isn't another flood. Here's the moment. Here's my covenant. I made this covenant with you, this agreement. I'm not going to do it again. But one of the verses in that chapter, God also says, I realize that man is sinful from his youth.

God says that. Yeah. Maybe that's the, maybe Julian's message and so much of the message of the mystic tradition is what's needed today. And that's like why we're seeing the echoes. In some ways, it's the echoes of the spirit coming to us when we need it the most when things are bad. All of a sudden, here comes Julian's message up. Look, yeah. And maybe it's trying to inspire new groups of people because you need that light of like, look, it's going to be okay. But we're in a fight right now. It's a big fight.

We need more people out here that is putting this message out. And sometimes I think that that's what like your work does in so many ways. It's so inspiring. Yeah, no, certainly. That's certainly true. I mean, you know, and I know that for many people, I know that there are certain texts that I go to when I'm really struggling for solace, for some kind of comfort. And Julian certainly, I could see how she could be that for some folks, you know, and operate

in that way and be so useful today, especially. That's certainly not hard to believe. When I just say that, when you began researching her, is there like a certain text or a certain part of her text or a certain part of her message that comes to you or speaks to you? I mean, it's so striking that initial image that she has, that initial vision. She's sick. She's dying. A church official comes to give her last rights. I mean, she is literally on death's door. And when he holds the crucifix up in front of her at the foot of her bed, she sees Jesus on it bleeding. I mean, that just to me, I mean, and that's why that that conference paper that I heard that

that I alluded to earlier was so striking to me because it is in many ways cinematic. Yeah. It's almost cinematic, right? I mean, you know, think about the way we sit in a movie theater watching a movie. And I mean, that's the same way that she describes seeing Jesus up on the cross at the foot of her bed. That for me, which is the first vision, that that kind of wrote me in and I was like, all right, you got me. Where's this going? You know, what's happening here? And she says, she tells us that, you know, within, I think it's within, days, she seems to have recovered from whatever it is. I mean, we don't even know what she was ill with. Right. We don't know what it was. And, you know, it's possible that when this occurs to her, because it occurs when she's 30, that she's not even leading a religious life yet.

It's possible that she's still a lay person lying on her bed at home when this happens. In fact, I would argue it's more likely. that that's the case and that the visions are what lead her into the religious life, as opposed to somebody like Richard Roel, who ran off to be a hermit and then had these visions. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about. I'm excited to explore it. And I think the one thing that a lot of these talks do for me is they open up a deeper avenue and a deeper, give me some more tools with which to look at the text and understand them and perspective. And, the series has been really amazing so far.

And as we're coming up on an hour here, maybe you can give some closing thoughts and talk about who we're going to, who we're moving on to maybe next week. So next week we're going to look at probably one of my favorites, because I wrote my dissertation on Jesuits, Ignatius Loyola's spiritual exercises. So we're moving into the Renaissance now. Nice.

Kind of going chronological. Kind of sort of. And we'll talk about what that text is all about. And again, why that text is equally as very popular today, probably as Julian. Very, very popular, actually. And we'll take a look at that text next week. Fantastic. And for those who may be tuning in and want to find out more about you.

And we've spoken briefly about your book, The Seven Deadly Sins, but that's how you and I connected. It's a fantastic book. It's a great read. I know you have other ones coming out. But maybe you could tell people where they can find. find you what you have and what you got coming up yeah so my website is david a solomon it's s a l-m-o-m-n-com and you can see the links to uh to my books to talks to my consulting um all kinds of stuff up there um currently working on a new book on angels and demons and pop culture um which we are trying

to get finished um by november fingers crossed um so that it will be out next year um and my current other project, which I've just have started working on, is I want to write a book that is for a general audience that I'm sort of tentatively calling Augustine reads Young

reads Augustine. I see a lot of overlap between the two thinkers when it comes to how we understand the self. And I want to write about the similarities and how the one text seem to inform the other text. So that's often

in the future. I just wrote the proposal for it, but it's going to have to wait until I get this other thing finished first. That is so fascinating. I would, inspiring and beautiful and intriguing and thought-provoking.

I can't even wait to hear more about it. So ladies and gentlemen, that's what we got for today. I hope you're enjoying the series. We've got a lot more coming up. It's been a really fruitful journey, and it's really fun and it's fun to explore. So that's what we got for today.

Ladies and gentlemen, check out David Solomon. Dr. David Sullivan in the True Life podcast, and that's all we got. Aloha.