TrueLife - Dr. David Salomon - An Unusual Tradition

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.com/“More David Salomon”In the United States we have an unusual tradition of referring to graduation as “commencement.” To some this seems odd. After all, this is the end of the college journey, not the start. Many think it is meant as metaphor to indicate the beginning of the rest of one’s life. Although that sounds romantic, the truth may be quite different. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I am so enamored by all these people, David, being like, more David Solomon, more David Solomon, they're blowing up my channel. And ladies and gentlemen, we're reunited and it feels so good. We're back. Dr. David Solomon, I'm so happy you're here. How are things going? For those who may not know you, I don't know who this would be, but would you be so kind just to remind the people of who

you are and what you do. Sure. So thanks, George. Thanks for having me back. Good to see you again. I am currently the director of undergraduate research and creative activity at Christopher Newport University in Newport, Newport, Newark, New York. I've been a professor of medieval literature, religion, and culture for about 30 years, written a couple of books, and my most recent book is on The Seven Deadly Sins, and preparing for the end of the academic year here, so things are busy. It is an incredible time of year for a lot of reasons. In your blog, My Two Sense, you know, you wrote down this one line that I thought we could just start here and you could begin unpacking this, is this the unusual tradition of referring to graduation as commencement. What's going on there? Yeah, well, I mean, we refer to it as commencement. It always seems weird because people think about commencements as being beginnings, not endings. And commencement usually, you know, commemorates the end of high school or the end of columns.

And, you know, it actually has a long tradition. I mean, the word comes from the Middle Ages and the idea that you would sit with the professors at the end of the year when you were finally sort of allowed to join them as peers. But it is a big moment of change for people. You know, I mean, students are experiencing a great deal of change at commencement. There's a combination of joy, of completion, and achieving something and receiving a degree. And there's also sadness in leaving the institution, right, leaving the mother, alma mater, that they've come to know and love and feel safe at. And going out into the big bad world, which, you know, seems to be bigger and badder in some ways these days and more hostile.

And I think that today's students, 21, 22 year olds who are graduating, have a lot to to deal with in the coming years. And I just hope they're prepared for it. Yeah. Well, ready or not, here it comes. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's exactly right.

It's exactly right. But I mean, you know, we're dealing with, this is our, really our first class that we are. graduating that really went through the whole COVID thing. You know, last year we graduated a class that had had it part of the time, but this class experienced the full two years of craziness with COVID. And it's interesting to look back on it and think about things that they missed and the ways that their experiences were different and how they adapted. I do believe that this is a fairly resilient group when it comes to that,

but I do have some concerns about, you know, lack of preparation for certain things that they're going to have to deal with. I mean, we've been talking for years, really, since we've come out of COVID, and I hesitate to say that, but about the effect that this is having on kids. and I count college kids in that group. And it's an effect that we're going to feel in education for quite some time. They are, I mean, the test scores are already showing they're underprepared. The level of remediation that's needed is much higher than it's been before. And a lot of, at least certainly a lot of higher ed institutions are unprepared for that

because they really had no remediation systems in place. So when you've got students who are coming in as freshmen and really need some serious remedial help in, let's say, math, and you haven't had to do that before, you really don't have anything put in place to deal with that. And so we noticed in the last year, year and a half, that the number of students who had been on academic probation, because of low grades was quite high because they are struggling. So I mean, you know, and that's only one part of it, right? I mean, they're struggling academically, struggling intellectually. But the struggling, the personal struggles, the social struggles are a whole other,

a whole other concern. And that is the part that really concerns me. because we don't deal with that well historically. We have become a, we're living in a culture when we tend to, I want to find the right word here. We tend to acquiesce and accommodate for everything. And, you know, I was talking to a colleague of mine yesterday, and we were talking about the fact that we were, when we were in college,

we experienced, you know, depression and anxiety. And no one knew. We never told anybody. These kids are an open book. You hear it all. Now, part of that is social media. And part of that is the whole different concept of what privacy means to these kids, to this generation. But the problem is, I think, and I'm ready for blowback from anybody who wants to argue with me about.

this because I'm not comfortable saying it but we have um I think we have swung the pendulum too far to the other side of of accommodating we've gone from you know no accommodations to now over accommodating and the problem is for old guys like me when these kids graduate and they go out into the the quote-unquote real world they're going to get smacked in the face because the real world doesn't care about their need for an accommodation because they have anxiety. And it pains me to say that, but it is, I think, largely the truth. Yeah, I would agree.

And I think that, you know, I live in California and on a certain moon, there was these grunion that would run. These fish would run up on the beach. And at first, if you went there too early, there'd only be one or two. And if you took those two fish, then the rest of them wouldn't come up. And I kind of see what's happening with people graduating, whether it's in different parts of life or an education or moving forward in life, like the first grunion, like the first kids that graduated that have been accommodated are like these first grunion. And they went up there and you could see the system failing because these fish are unable to make it to the shore. I kind of see what you're saying as far as, look, they're coming out and society isn't working in the way that it was.

up to work because it's set up as a meritocracy. The best people should be able to be leading the best corporation so we have the best ideas and the best way to take care of the people below us. And we've gotten away from that in a lot of ways. But I am hopeful. I'm hopeful because I think that opens up the door for the people who may not have graduated from the best universe. You know, when you have the people on the ground floor that are like, hey, the emperor's got no clothes on, many of you guys see that? I think. I think. think that that's coming. No, I agree. I think you're right.

I mean, one of the issues is just that as a culture, it is the way of America to be reactive, right? And so we react to things. So, for example, with the issue of accommodations for students, you know, we were all the way on one side of the pendulum, and we have reacted by swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side. Really, what we need is a medium. I mean, we've done the same thing with so many other issues, gender issues, race, right?

I mean, a lot of, you know, so we react, and then there becomes a degree of overcompensation. And I think, I don't speak for anybody, but I think that most folks who are in the situation where they are receiving accommodations for whatever reason would prefer that. the pendulum be in the middle and not swung all the way in their in their supposed favor because the thing is that I don't think we're doing them any favors by doing that you know we we coined a new name for this generation yesterday and I I get to go on in trade market so someone will steal it for me but we're calling them gen ac as in gen acronym right there's an acronym for everything with this generation LGBTQ, ADHD, ADD, you know, it's all acronyms. And that's the way that they have come to, in many ways, identify themselves.

And I think that it makes me think of the distinction, which we've talked about before, between, let's say, Freud and Young. Let's talk about modern psychology, right? The way that that modern psychology, and I'm speaking as a non-psychologist at a 30,000-foot view here. But as psychology today tends to want to pigeonhole people, right? So you look at the DSM, the diagnostic manual, and it pigeonholes people with a diagnosis. Right. And that's what Freud did. Right. Freud, it was, you know, you had this experience and that means this.

about you and you get labeled with that and that's it and the the reason why I am a much more enthusiastic subscriber to Carl Jung is because young will admit okay yeah maybe there's a problem but you can fix it yeah which whereas with with somebody like Freud who of course young broke away from it was much more of this is the diagnosis and your labeled with that then and you become sort of paralyzed in it and it becomes as as Freud himself would refer to as you know self-fulfilling prophecy then yeah right um whereas if you're given the the power um if you are empowered to change your situation then that kind of a label is not a sentence it is just a temporary identifier that eventually you might be able to shake off.

And I'm not talking about folks who are experiencing pathological issues, chemical issue. You know, I'm talking about this trend that we have towards everyone gets a label and as a result is accommodated in some way. and I see it with my students. It's a frightening trend. And the oversharing of personal issues. And again, this may be the result of social media, right, where the sort of the barrier, the wall that separated, you know, the personal from the public has really kind of just been decimated.

and, you know, we see it with celebrity, right? I mean, we know everything about these people, even if we don't want to. Yeah. It's, it's a, I think it's a disturbing trend. I don't know. What do you think, George? Well, first off, it's a great question. I'm glad you brought it up.

I happen to have a copy of the DSM here that I, and I like to read it for a little bit. I know it sounds crazy. It's, it is, parts of it are quite entertaining. And I think you have the original copy that was written in the Middle Ages that you keep on your nightstand. Yes, yes, the anatomy of melancholy, which is written in the 16th century by Robert Burton. Right. And supposedly was going to give you the reason, every reason you could imagine for why someone might be depressed. Right, right.

And Samuel Johnson kept it on his nightstand and used to read it. You're correct. But see, it isn't like, and it gets bigger. It's almost a thousand pages. And what it reminds me. It gets bigger every time they come out with a new one. This is like, you'll remember this, and some of our listeners will. This is like the Sears catalog.

When I was little, you get the Sears catalog and circle the stuff. This is a Sears catalog for diseases that you can have. And if you're really good and you're a psychologist, you can put products into this catalog. Oh, yeah. The people, you know? Yeah. But it doesn't say things about the individual. I think it speaks volumes of our society.

It's not the individual that's sick. It's the society that's sick. And it's desperately trying to find ways to blame the person. instead of the system. And I think what we're seeing, whether it's the kids graduating, whether it's the acronyms, whether it's social media,

I believe that we're seeing the breakdown, not only of society, but this idea of authority. Like it used to be in America, you would challenge authority. You would go to school and you would challenge the professor and there would be this rigorous debate. And somewhere along the line,

that was kind of pushed out for, all of a sudden the person that wanted to debate, that person was a, you know, that guy has ADD. That guy wants to interrupt the class. That's a problem. Hey, you can't interrupt the class. What if it doesn't make sense? Then you should interrupt the class.

And so if we look back, we can begin to see, I think that we can begin to see the symptoms taking place in society. But rather than just like everything else in society, rather than solve the problem, we mask the symptom, whether it's big pharma, whether it's big business or whether it's the DSM, what we're seeing is our inability. to face the fact that we have big problems and we don't know the answer. No, you're absolutely right. Pigeon. You're absolutely right. I mean, and it is the systemic problem. Yeah.

And it is, it is, I think, a somewhat uniquely Western problem. It is a difference in approach in the West and the East about how we deal with those kinds of issues. And again, you know, in the West, we are mostly reactive. we're not proactive about very much. And we look for scapegoats, right? So as you say, you know, so if we, something's wrong with society, where we're looking for an individual to peg that on,

to make them the scapegoat. And we see that a lot right now. I mean, you know, just in the last week, I mean, I've only been reading about it peripherally because he kind of turns my stunts. but Tucker Carlson being fired from Fox I mean there are claims that you know it they had to have a scapegoat for the Dominion thing and he's the scapegoat sure I don't know if that's actually true or not but I mean it it certainly seems to make sense and we we see that with with everything I mean if a system is broken rather than

rebuilding or or building a new system that's better we put a Band-Aid on it and and we send somebody off into the, sorry, into the wilderness like a scapecoat with the sins of the culture on their head. I mean, that's where that concept comes from in the Old Testament, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, I heard a story. I think it's relevant. I would love to share it with you. It's this, there's this general in this war-torn part of, I don't know, some fantasy world.

There's this really crazy general. and he has gone on a killing spree. And he's moving from town to town conquering. And the biggest enemy that he seems to come in contact with as he's conquering the land is the religious leaders. And he is making it known that he will have zero tolerance for these religious leaders in these towns. And so he's violently slaughtering him. And he moves his army into the next town and he meets with the leaders. And he says, and the leaders of the town say,

Oh, great general, your reputation precede you, and all of the religious monks have fled off to the mountain hillside except for one. And the general's in, what do you mean? There's one left. Oh, he's in the ashram, and he's just sitting in there waiting. The general grabs his sword, and he walks into the ashram and opens the door, and there's the monk standing there. And the general walks up really close to him, and he gets in his face,

and he's just so angry, and he looks at that monk, He says, don't you know who I am? I could take my sword and run it through your belly in the blink of an eye. And the monk just says, oh, and don't you know who I am? I'm the guy who could have your sword run through my belly without blinking an eye. And it's this idea of like, yeah, the system, the people that are in here threatening us, that are telling us all these things that are allowing us to live in fear, they need to be met on the other side by someone who isn't living in fear,

who understands like, yeah, you can do that. It doesn't matter. And I think that's where we're at. I think we're on the cusp, David, of a cultural revolution. You can see it in the inner city. People rioting. You could see it in France. You could see it in Germany.

If we take a look everywhere else, what's happening in other countries is happening in this country, but we're in it so we don't see it. And I think it's the same way thing. That may be true. I mean, that story reminds me, of course, of the standoff in Tiananmen Square many years ago, right? There you go, yes. That one student standing in front of the tanks and that iconic photograph. I think part of our problem is, and you alluded to it earlier, in talking about a meritocracy,

we are so focused and so concerned that we are a democracy. the greatest democracy that ever existed. And I think we've lost what that really means in many ways. And people don't understand what that actually means. They think it just means, you know, one person, one vote. Everybody's equal. Not really. Not really.

I mean, if you go back and you read Plato about this, I mean, you know, he wasn't saying, you know, everybody gets a vote. he was saying that you know we should take the people who were the smartest and make them the people who are in charge there was a it's just a different attitude and you know i had a a quote-unquote debate on facebook the other day unfortunately with a former student of mine who have a lot of respect for but we think very differently on the issue of guns and uh you know i i i mean it was a very sane and calm discussion and exchange and I finally said, you know, ultimately we're going to have to agree to disagree because you're not going to convince me. I'm not going to convince you. But there is just such a different point of view in our country when it comes to certain very polarized issues. And that's where

I'm worried that we're so far apart. And to be honest, I mean, you know, we don't usually talk politics. I'm horrified at what's going on with this next election. I mean, I mean, I am a Democrat. I will vote for Joe Biden again if he's the Democratic nominee. The man should not be running for reelection. And the fact that the best that we can do in our country is Joe Biden against Donald Trump again doesn't say a whole hell of a lot about who we are. It really doesn't. Yeah, I don't understand that. Like, there's, that's not the best we can do. That's like the we can do. We're doing the least amount possible. And I don't understand it because, I mean, it's not as if we don't have people active in the political realm and good people. But I don't know

how we come to the conclusion that, you know, these are the two representatives of the two opposing parties. This and, you know, and supposedly the best that they have. I just, I just don't get that. I mean, it's it, it baffles me. Yeah, I think it begs the question, the best for who? Like, who are they the best for? True. Yeah, true.

You know, I mean, we've talked often about, you know, the, the incredible damage, I think, that's been done to our country by a capitalist system that's gone berserk. Yeah. And it really has. I was watching John Oliver last night. I don't know if you watch him. His show from Sunday night was on cryptocurrency. And, you know, something which I still don't understand cryptocurrency.

I've tried. I don't understand it. And he just went through. I mean, it was just so incredibly damning of these, you know, incredibly wealthy individuals who want to get involved in that just so basically they can make more money. I mean, the drive, and I mean, I talk about this in my book on The Seven Deadly Sins of Eccreed, right? I mean, the drive to just have more and more and more, nothing is enough. I just, I just don't understand that.

I mean, you know, yes, I want to be comfortable. You know, luckily, I think I am at the moment. If that's my wife, she does the checkbook. But this idea that just, you know, I run into students who are majoring in business and you talk to them and you say, well, what do you want to do when you graduate? And basically, they're only responses to make money, to do something and make money. They have no passion about anything other than making money. And I think that's just horrifying. I don't understand it personally,

but I think it's just incredibly dangerous because it will potentially just sap the soul out of the culture, right? If that's the only thing that drives people is making money and you don't have a passion for anything. You know, I mean, I'll run into kids who'll say, you know, I'm an entrepreneurship major. And I say, oh, what do you want to do? Well, I'm going to open up a big company.

You know, oh, what are you going to sell? I don't know. You know, they're just going to be an entrepreneur. And I don't know. I mean, I don't get it. I'm not a business person, obviously. I'm in the humanities. I never really got that world.

But, you know, both of my grandfather and my father were in the sales slash retail world. And so, you know, they did what they did. But they had a passion for it. I mean, my grandfather retired as the head fur buyer for Gimbals back when, you know, fur was more okay than it is now, to be sure. But he had worked his way up. He didn't go to college. Yeah.

You know, I believe he was a high school graduate. I'm not even sure of that. You know, my father graduated from high school and worked his way up in the retail world and eventually had his own one man come. and sold textile designs. You know, so that they, my point is that they understood something about business. Right. But making money wasn't the end.

It wasn't the be-all end-all of their existence, which it seems to be with many of these kids that I run into. You know, I mean, I want to run into the kid who says, I want to, you know, I want to go into publishing or I want to work for an NGO or I want to do public policy. you know, give me something that you can, that I can see that you're, you're stinking your teeth into. Yeah, at least a vision, like, to have money or like to have more. That's so empty. You need the, gosh, just a great quote. Without a vision, the people will perish. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, I almost think that, you know, I mean, I teach the museum studies courses here. Right. Right. So my students for the spring semester, they curate an exhibition. And they just did their exhibition for the spring. It's up now here in the library.

And as part of that project, they're divided up into different sort of teams committees, responsible for various things. And one of the things that they have to do is they have to come up with a mission statement, but they also have to come up with a value statement. Right. So the mission statement is, you know, what is your mission? What are you out to do? But the value statement is almost more important.

It's what do you value? And I think for a lot of folks in general, because I work in higher ed, a lot of students that I run into, I would love to ask them to, you know, write me a value statement. What do you value? Because, and it's part of the vision, right? Yeah. And I, we do that in certain settings. So, I mean, I do consulting in education with high schools. And sometimes I'll go into a department who have been going through a rough time for whatever reason and kind of need a reset.

And almost the first thing that I say to them is, you know, what's your mission statement? You don't have one? We got to write one. And then what's your value statement? Because we can't do anything until you've set those two things because I have no idea what you want. What do you want to be? Who are you now? what do you value? What's important? That's why you're an amazing teacher. And I'm thankful

for the kids that get to go and be part of that. You know, if I take the wheel and I jerk it hard to the right over here and we just reshine a light on your book. Given who we are, George, you might jerk it hard to the left. That's true. That's a great point. That's a great point. Well, it depends on what time we're in because the left is the right. The right is the left. True. True enough. Yeah. Yeah. So let's say. we revisit for a moment, this idea of the seven deadly sins, and we look back to the Renaissance, you know, when we took spirituality, when we took God out of the equation, you know, it seems to me that now we've taken value out of the equation. Is that something, is that just a

continuation of taking spirituality away from that? But let's not confuse God and spirituality, because you can be spiritual and not believe in God. Well done. And so, you know, I think that what's happened is as established slash organized religion has lessened in its importance in people's lives. There's a corresponding rise for some folks in spirituality. For others, it left them empty. And those are the folks that were worried about, right? Because those are the folks that don't seem to have those values and haven't thought about them. I think you really need to think about them.

I think you really need to think about these things. Yeah. What are your values? You know, what are your values as an individual? What are your values for your family? What are you trying to teach your kids? That kind of thing. To think about the things that you value.

And it's definitely the decline in organized religion in America in particular has contributed to that. But I don't want to chalk it all. all up to organized religion because there are so many problems there. Right. You know, and certainly there are lots of folks who are still, you know, devout believers in one organized system or another who themselves probably couldn't tell you about their values. And so, you know, that's why I think it's, it's, I'm never disturbed when I see those surveys of the

the percentage of Americans who don't believe in God or don't believe, you know, it's like, okay, but what do they believe in? Right, right. Tell me what they do believe in. Because you got to believe in something. And if you believe in

nothing but, as we were saying a minute ago, making money, okay, that's what you believe in. But, you know, let's talk about that then. What does that mean your values are? And where is that going to get you in the long run, right? I mean, it makes me think of the old medieval tale told amongst other places in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and the partner's tale about the three friends who find all that money by the tree. It was retold years later in the treasure of the Sierra Madre in the Bogart film, right?

They find all this money by the tree and they decide they're going to split it up. They'll come back at night and split it up. and then they'll leave. And they end up all killing, poisoning each other so that they can get more money. And it ends up, nobody wins. And I think that, you know, again, watching that John Oliver episode about cryptocurrency, it seems like nobody's winning. You know, there have been a lot of losers.

And I don't see anybody that's coming out on top when it comes to that. And as I say, I plead complete ignorance. I have tried to read about it. it and I still don't understand what cryptocurrency is. Maybe a listener can pipe it in the comments and explain it to me. I'd love it. But I just don't understand it. It seems to me from the very little that I get is just about making more money.

I think that this puts an interesting bow or at least kind of ties things together in the idea that, you know, money and value should be connected. but when people don't have values, money's worthless. You know what I mean by that? Like, you can have all the money in the world, but if you don't value yourself, if you don't value your relationships, then really money is just going to be the poison in the Canterbury Tail. Like, what are you doing?

You're just poisoning people. Same with crypto. Like, when I see crypto, I see the promise of a peer-to-peer exchange and value, you know, without some sort of centralized group of individuals that decide, hey, I want 30% of that exchange right there. Well, can I say what you do with it?

No, you can't. Well, then what are we doing? And maybe this crack in the foundation, maybe this period of valueless exchanges is exactly what we need to come to so that we can begin to reteach our spiritual nature to have. have values, to redefine money, to read, maybe that's what we're going through right. Well, look at the resurgence in, in, in, in, in bartering. Yeah. Which we've seen in the last, you know, what, 20 years in this country, a real resurgence

and bartering, especially when it comes to the neighborhood levels, right? Neighborhoods, which there's a word for it. And I can't, forgive me, I can't remember what it is, but there's, it's actually a system where you've got a neighborhood and basically, there's no reason why everyone on the block needs to on a loanmower. buy one lawnmower and we share it. There's no reason for everybody to have their own. You know, it's more of that idea.

And it is more communal based, which is, you know, certainly a problem for our country because we've moved away from the whole concept of neighborhoods. Right. I mean, I live in what I would consider a neighborhood. And I think I, I mean, I may, I may be no four or five people on my block. And when I say no, I mean to wave to them. I don't even know their names, and I've looked here, you know, it's just the whole concept of a neighborhood has changed so significantly. And yeah, I mean, that's what happens, right?

I mean, urban planning, sociology, et cetera, et cetera, that's what happens. But, boy, there was something to, I mean, I grew up in the Bronx and New York, and there was something to the fact that, you know, I lived in a neighborhood. I knew everybody who lived in my apartment building. Yeah. And you just, you don't really have that much anymore. And I think that that's part of the values question, right? What do you value? If I value being, you know, a good neighbor, for lack of another way of putting it, you know, that means I'm going to, you know, get to know the folks who live in my neighborhood and watch after after them and after everything that is around me. And I'm not, I'm not sure that that that's, happening in a lot of situations anymore you know and and and certainly COVID and and and just our our isolating nature of of the internet and you know it just it has really separated us and and pulled us apart from each other I mean now granted it also has joined people I'm sitting here in Virginia you're in Hawaii we would never have

known each other otherwise without the internet so great fantastic but as is the case with so many of these kinds of situations it really can't be in either or it's both right you need both and you need to find balance right we're back with the pendulum right it needs to be the middle way as as the medieval mystics would call it right um and and we have a hard time with the middle way because we're so tamer reactive, you know, it's just way or that way. It's black or white. Yeah. And I don't know what the solution to that is. I mean, I'm hoping that you're right with your optimism about the time and things changing and people coming together. It's going to be an interesting year and a half until the next presidential election, to be sure, you know, the last six or seven years have been

pretty unpleasant for a lot of people. And, you know, on both sides of the aisle, I think. Yeah. And so, you know, it's, you know, I heard a woman speaking this morning. I was watching CNN and they interviewed a woman who's a small business owner. And her take on it was very interesting. A young woman, and she didn't identify party-wise. But she said, you know, the choices between Biden and Trump, from her perspective, were both too extreme.

She said they were both too extreme. So we need somebody who's more moderate. And I thought that was an interesting look because, of course, as a Democrat, you know, I don't see Biden as that extreme. But, you know, I can understand how someone who may be sitting on the other side would look at it that way. Right, right. But I mean, you know, if you think about it, I mean, historically, when's the last time that we had a moderate government in place? It's been so divided for so long that, you know, there are many people who can't even remember what that look like. Yeah, it almost seems like it should be easier than ever for someone to come in.

When you start hearing people on both sides talking, we need a moderate. Yeah. Yeah, and when both sides are complaining that, you know, it's just I can't imagine that anybody on either side is jumping up and down about either one of these candidates. Yeah. For a variety of reasons, you know. And it's just, I don't know, it's crazy. I mean, we've got so many up-and-comers. Where are they?

Why aren't they stepping up? And of course, you know, that's been a discussion in the political world for decades because, you know, and one of the complaints is, well, because you're, you know, your life is raked over the coals, you know, you're just, it's, the media is brutal. And I don't know, maybe that, maybe that's the case. I don't know. And that's why people are hesitant to, to jump in. I mean, it's certainly true. the way that their every movement is just put under the microscope. But again, I have to think that some of that is a function of the 24-7 media cycle that we live in now. Because we didn't have that before. We had 24-7 news and the Internet. It wasn't about looking at every...

little minute aspect of someone's life. I mean, sure, you know, and we had, I mean, you know, everybody remembers the John Edwards fiasco and, you know, and then there was back in with, you know, Humphrey and Muskie. I mean, you know, yeah, that happened. But it just seems now that, and I was thinking about this this morning,

because it's funny, when I was growing up, if someone was a quote-unquote celebrity, that was a pretty small club. And if someone's name was mentioned, you know, it's like you knew who they were. And so I was watching TV this morning before I left the house to come to work. And they ran an ad for some reality show that's coming on. And they listed four people who were like the stars of this reality show.

So these are supposed celebrities in our culture. The first two were Hulk Hogan and Dennis Rodman. Yeah. The second two, I can't even tell you who they were because I've never heard of them. And it just struck me while I was sitting there. I was like, I can remember when I was younger. It's like if they mentioned somebody, I knew who they were. You know?

And Warhol was right, right? I mean, everyone's going to be famous for 15 minutes in the future. And he was right. That's what's happened. and I imagine both he and Marshall McLuhan are probably rolling over in their graves, you know. It would be really, it would be incredibly interesting to see what the two of them would have to say about the situation today. I think McLuhan was right on the money when he said that human beings are the sex organs of the machines. Yeah.

You know, I would love to talk to that guy. Fascinating. You know, on that same level, when we look at government, when we look at democracy, when we look at the world, the pendulum swinging and where are the up-and-comers and celebrities i i see on one hand you know when i talk to my dad who's my dad watches fox news all day my mom watches uh something else all day and it's like i listen to them both and even though they have different enemies like it's the exact same thing and like i i just what i what i see in some ways is this other system that slowly becoming less relevant.

And in some ways, it is our government. In some ways, it is the financial world. It is the job market. It is these legacy companies. And on this new green emerging ideas of parallel economies, I see this thing called the creator economy. And I see kids that are nine or ten that have their own channel and a million followers. And I see, is this the resume of the future when you get to be 18?

Is someone going to say to you? What have you done? Well, I have this channel. I've got this thing. Yeah. You know, and you can see the end of these legacy middlemen where it used to be you needed case. You need a whole advertising team to get this product out. But now you just go give this thing to a young kid and put it on a TikTok channel.

And you've decentralized that. You've moved this entire organization from, you know, 150 people with you're paying their health care. you're paying their wages, you're paying salary, gone. In some ways, it's scary. It's momentous. It's gigantic because you're moving so quickly. But let me ask you this. What is the relationship?

Because I think we're seeing a lot of fear here on both sides. What do you think is the relationship between fear and values? And can those two things coexist? It's an interesting question. Because I think, I mean, at heart, what we're kind of agreeing with is we have a system that either doesn't work or is broken or both. Yes. And so what does that mean to a person's values?

I mean, you're talking to someone who growing up as a kid quite seriously, my goal was to be president. I was going to go to college for political science and I was going to go to law school because I figured if you're going to be a politician, you've got to be a lawyer. That made sense to me.

And that that was what I intended to do. And what happened was a year and a half of political science classes, which bored me to tears. Sorry, political scientists in the group. And then entering at a law firm in New York City after my freshman year, the summer after my freshman year and saying, no way in hell, I'm doing this. Because what I realized was I came to the conclusion that I could accomplish more outside of the system. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at when you're talking about these kids and, you know, podcasting and, you know, it's, it's getting at what it is that you see as value of value working outside of the system. Yes. Because the system just doesn't work.

And you were, and you did it first. Like you, like, if you just think about that, if we, you were going to be present because you want to change the world. You want to make it better. And then you, like, look, you are actually doing that now. You had to find a way to do it without. Like, without a doubt, no, without a doubt. I listen to the words you use. I see the passion in your eyes.

I see you making value statements with kids coming into school. You're having a radical effect on the future of this world. And I love it. But you did it first. The point I'm making is, look, you did what your students are doing. You have to work outside this narrow bounds. And as that system gets old, it becomes more authoritative. And it doesn't work.

I don't care if it doesn't work. Do it the way I said. But it doesn't work. I do it anyway. Yeah, I mean, I've always said, I mean, at least in my world in higher red, the saddest phrase you could tell, say is that's the way we've always done it. And it's funny because I had an interview for a dean's position several years ago at a campus. And I walked into the president's office to meet with the president.

and all the higher-ups, the VPs. And the provost, I think, got up to shake my hand. And he had a button on his sport jacket that said, that's the way we've always done it. I had a big red line for it. And I said, that's a great button. Yeah. And it was a plant because that was going to be his,

that was his question in the interview was, what does this say to you? And to me, that's just, you know, if you say regardless of what we're talking about, you know, we do it that. way because that's the way we've always done it. My answer is always, well, that's the best reason to change it then. Because, you know, if that's the way we've always done it. And if that's your response, it means that you're not open to thinking about making it better. Yeah. You're just saying that's the way we do it. You know, good or bad. That's the way we do it. And I just think that that attitude has really been embraced by so many in our government.

structure, right? I mean, looking at the way that, that, I mean, you know, take one example, right? Look at, look at the, the internal revenue service and the tax code, which I mean, I don't know how many pages it is now, something ridiculous. Right, right. And people always say, you know, oh, they just, this is crazy. They need to just chuck it and start from square, but they're never going to do that because that's not the way we do things, right? We're just going to expand it and make it, make it even bigger. Yeah. And, and even more difficult to understand, like the DSM, five or i think we're up to six now right yeah you know we keep adding things yeah granted with the dsm they do take things out occasionally um but with the tax code i mean it's so complicated no one

can understand it um so what the hell use is that you know and you talk about you know a way of exerting authority and power i mean that's what that is right yeah it's a few people who were able to interpret that freaking thing along with you know whatever accountants are able to to interpret it. They've got all the power then because it reminds me of the priests and the church in the Middle Ages, right? The people couldn't read the Bible because they couldn't read Latin. You had to rely on the priest to read it to you and interpret it for you. He had all the power. And the church had all the power. So this gives the government the power, right? Because, you know, I'm just some poor snook. What do I know? I can't read the tax code. It doesn't make any sense to me.

And I think we see that with so many things, not just related to the tax code, but even just legal issues in general. I mean, you try to look up, you know, laws about some of these things. And it's just, it's like it's written in another language. And it makes no sense. And I just, you know, I don't belittle anyone for their, their passion and their vocation. But we need to reset on some of these things and decide, you know, what, again, you know, let's go values again. You know, what are our values? What do we value?

And so, you know, so much discussion in the media forever, it seems, about taxing, you know, the very wealthy. That's a values issue. Yep. You know, it's not an economic issue. That's a values issue. And we keep treating it like an economic issue, right? Let's talk about it in CMBC. No, right?

Let's talk about it at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton and talk about it as a philosophical and a values issue because that's really what it is. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's a giant value slash control mechanism where, you know, there was an interesting, you probably know this more me there's and I forgot who said it but there's this idea that you can tell who is in power by the tallest building and it used to be the castle was the tallest building and then it was the church

and now it's the the bank building yeah and they said in in in i think in um in utah you could see it all in one city you know boom boom boom like it's it's interesting to think about the architecture yeah the way we build cities is the way we build the ideas in our mind which is the way we build the ideas in our mind, which is the way we interact with each other, right? Absolutely. I mean, a lot of it comes out of, you know, Jane Jacobs and her urban study stuff. But if you, you know, I think I mentioned this in, in the book as well, that, as you say, I mean, the Middle Ages, you know, the church was at the center of the town. The cathedral was at the center of the town and usually the highest building.

And now we've replaced that. And, you know, what is at the center of most, most communities? it's it's the commercial district it's commerce that now we worship you know so much so that you know look at buildings like the now gone world trade center right or even the current world trade center

right and we build these huge monoliths which are basically you know churches to to greed to making money so this brings up an interesting point so here in In On Oahu, there's this giant mall, and it's called Alamawana.

And it has all the Jimmy Chu and the designer brands. And it has Tiffany. It has all of these incredible designer brands. All the boutiques. And they're giant, right? You can go in on a private viewing and get a glass of champagne and buy some shoe, whatever. It's all there. And it's, it is, it's a masterpiece.

It's not very tall, but it's really long. Sure. And if we take the idea that the largest most expensive buildings seem to be the idols that we worship, you know, can we change it by, when I go to the mall now, there's a lot less stores and there's a lot more buying experience. For example, there's these breakout rooms that are popping up in places. There are these maker labs that are happening there. Is that the evolution of what we are beginning to worship or beginning to worship? or beginning to want, are we beginning to see the primacy of experience take the place of the ideas of authority, the ideas of commercialization? Is that possible?

I certainly hope so. I mean, I see what you're saying. And I think that, you know, there are more of these places that are popping up that focus on experiences, whether it's, you know, the paint and sit places where you go and paint and have a glass of wine or these maker spaces that have opened up. So I think you're right, you know, or the, even the escape rooms, right? I mean, that's about experience. So, yeah, I think to some degree you're right. It's just somebody's going to figure out how to monetize it, aren't they? Because that's what we do.

And usually when that happens, the original idea gets bastardized and ruined. They go, well, that's not really what we were after. but it gets taken over. And I think that's happened with a lot of what we've experienced just in our history, right, is the ways in which some new experience is created. And then someone comes in and figures out how to make money off of it. And it just gets completely changed. I mean, let's think about the earliest days of the Internet.

The internet was supposed to be all about their democratization. Right, right. You know, and, you know, there's been a movement for, what, 15 years at least now, to have internet access reclassified in this country as utility. So that everyone would have equal access to it the same way we do to electricity and running water. Because there's still large pockets in this country where people have no internet access for one reason of another. whether it's economic or just, you know, geographic. But the ways in which it became monetized,

I mean, you know, I mean, what are we paying a month to be able to be on the Internet? It's it, we're paying for access. And, you know, again, if it's reclassified as a utility, that will all change. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I would, I think that there's a distinction where. it seems like the consolidation of the experiences is what drives the commercialization. Because if you and I set up different escape rooms, people can come to ours and we can both make money and we can have different experiences.

But when the Facebook comes in and says, okay, I'm going to buy up yours. I'm going to buy up yours. And we're going to use all the same stuff because it's going to be better that way. You know, you're stealing the experience and cheapening it. Well, that's what happens with a lot of corporate America. A lot of it. That's the only way they grow. These little, you know, quote unquote, mom and pop places, which get bought out.

Right. And get sucked into a bigger corporate kind of structure. It certainly would happen to the independent bookstore industry. Yes. It's trying to make a comeback, valiant, try, but I don't know if it's going to work. But, you know, I mean, and it used to be that when I had my bookstore in the 80s, the thing that we lamented was Borders and Barnes & Noble. You know, the big, those now, of course, it's Amazon, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just, and again, that's a values thing too, right? I mean, if you value going into a bookstore and looking around and the serendipity of finding something that you didn't actually go in there for or just to go into a bookstore just to browse, I mean, you're not getting that experience on Amazon. And so, you know, if you value that, you have to show that you value it. And, you know, because of our economic structure, that means, you know, putting your money where your mouth is, right?

It's all well and good. I mean, we've got a local vegan restaurant here, which we frequent. It's a bakery, wonderful bakery. But she has struggled, and she struggled through COVID. And just recently, she started going to farmers markets on the weekend. And she's doing great with the farmers markets. But she just announced last week that she's cutting her store hours because she just can't do it. You know, the store is just not the physical one location.

She can't keep it open. So she's cutting down the hours. And, you know, but she's assured everybody that she's still going to do the farmers markets and be strong there. But I think, you know, the structure of and part of the reason why you walk through the malls these days, which themselves are dying. Yeah. But, you know, and there's so many empty spaces. It's the renters outranges. Yeah.

Who can pay that? Who can afford to pay that? And even the big corporate operations are pulling out because they're not willing to pay it. And that's really something. You know, when when a Starbucks says. you know, we're pulling out, which has happened. We have a mall in Norfolk, which is on its last dying breath, I think. Just gradually everything has left for one reason or another.

But I remember a couple of years ago when Eddie Bauer, which was a fairly large store in that mall, decided that they were going to close because they just couldn't pay the rent. The rent was just too high. And again, no economist, I don't understand how the owner of that mall is doing better by having that place be empty rather than lowering the rent. I don't get that, but I'm sure it has something to do with losses and tax. Yeah. Yeah. I don't get it either.

I don't, it just maybe the fact that they can do better by letting those people go is a giant problem. I think it is. How can that be? How could that possibly be? I don't know. I mean, you see all these empty storefronts. And the complaint is always, well, the rent's just too high. It's like, well, so why wouldn't you want it rented and just lower the rent?

But I think there's an economic incentive to not doing that. I don't know. Yeah. And that seems to be a symptom nationwide is these absence of people. in commercial buildings. You know, I don't, there's an interrupt. I'm sure it would be fascinating to go in and see some of the social theological changes that happen with COVID.

Like I'm sure there's tons of small businesses. People stop going into work. They stop supporting the guy on the corner. And it's sad in some ways, right? Yeah. The way that, I mean, office spaces in the larger cities, a lot of these offices are empty. Yeah. Because what happened after COVID was,

these companies figured out that, hey, we can get just as much done with having our people telecommute. They can work from home. We don't have to pay the overhead of having it, renting an office. And so there's been a, there's an ongoing movement to convert a lot of those spaces to low-income housing in inner cities. We'll see whether or not it pans out. You know, I think, I think it's, it's a movement in some of the larger, larger areas. But I think, unless the government gets behind it, I don't know what's going to go anywhere. Yeah, and for me, it's, I'm for working for home.

Like, if someone can be just as productive, you know, how much time do people spend in traffic? And I'm not saying I want the guy who owns a corner store to have tough times, but, you know, isn't it a better quality of life for people if they don't have to, you know, spend a sixth of it or a fifth of it in traffic or spending money they don't have on a coffee they don't need. Yes, but maybe, but there's also something to be said, as you and I have touched on before,

about work-life balance. Yeah. And, you know, if you're working from home, it's going to be more and more difficult to have that separation. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point. I am bullish on the future.

I'm hopeful, and I believe wholeheartedly, that we're moving into a world that is not only more beautiful than you, imagine, more beautiful than you can imagine. I think it comes from challenging authority. I think it comes from having the time to yourself to believe in yourself. And I think people can do it. And I see the kids in the maker economy. I see the kids in the in the space that are finding things they're passionate about and explaining them to people. They're finding things they're passionate about and exploring those things. And I think it can be dangerous to the people who have a monopoly on progress in some ways.

I'm bullish on it, though. I think it's beautiful. And I think if we just take a step back and go, yes, this is crazy. But look at this over here. And then we pour ourselves into that container of experience, the primacy of experience, the sharing economy. I really think that that's the future moving forward. Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. I hope you're right. I am. I'm totally right. We have good people like you that are bringing up and giving kids coming into the space ideas and they're giving them values. And more than that, I'm glad you shared

that story about how you originally thought about going into law school. You tried this. But then you went around and found a way to infiltrate this system and make it better. Because I think that that's what makes you a great teacher is that you're like, yeah, I went down this path, but then I found this sort of workaround over here. And I think that that is what the next, I think that's what a lot of people can see in you is that, like, yeah, look, you're an incredibly compassionate teacher that wants things to be better. And not only do you want to be better, but you've taken that path. You've made those sacrifices and it shows.

I'm happy you're out there. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. We're coming up on this hour. Before I let you go, you know, ladies and gentlemen, there's an incredible book called The Seven Deadly Sins that was your latest book. I love it.

We've gone through lots of it together. And I would recommend if people want to live a life worth living, then they should probably check out that book. But you got another book coming up. What else? Let me, why don't you tell me where people can find you and tell me these things you got coming up? Yeah. So my website is David A. Solomon, S-A-L-O-M-O-M-A. dot com.

And you can find links to all of my publications, the blog, consulting, all my media stuff is there. What have I got coming up? A busy few weeks here with end of the semester and commencement on May 13th. Yes, on May 13th, I will read about 700 names at commencement for graduates from about three quarters of our class, a colleague who does the other quarter. Don't ask me how he gets off with only a quarter and I get three quarters. And then two days later, I will go to London with 16 students doing a course on museums in London for a little bit more than two weeks. And excited about that, looking forward to it.

And looking forward to getting some culture from overseas. Yeah, it's going to be amazing. It's going to be, I'm super excited to see that. People can work a show win over there. Are you going to be giving a speech? We're going to try to do that, yeah. Yeah. We'll try to do that.

Yeah. Are you going to give a speech during commencement or is it mostly just reading names? No, I just stand up there and just read names for five hours. And then when I'm done, I don't want to talk to anybody. I can imagine. Yeah. It's pretty exhausting. Last year, my voice held out, but just barely.

because it's a lot. But I enjoy it. I like doing that and participating in the pomp of the ceremony and celebrating their commencement and their new beginning. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're doing it. And to all the kids that are graduating, congratulations, the future has never been brighter.

If you have the courage to go out and believe in yourself, you can do anything. And I'm so excited for the future because I think we have a great group of kids coming. And that's what I got going on for today. So ladies and gentlemen, I love you guys. I'm so stoked you're here with us. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. And reach out to David, check out his books, ask him for some consulting.

And pay attention to his blog, My Two Cent. It's got a lot of good stuff in there. And that's what we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, Aloha.