TrueLife - Dr. David Salomon - Codex Chronicles: The Cloud of the Unknowing

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Welcome to The Codex Chronicles… A professor’s Tale of Manuscripts.https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.comhttps://cnu.edu/people/davidsalomon/Dr. David A. Salomon holds a PhD in English literature from the University of Connecticut and an MA from the City University of New York. A specialist in the literature, religion and culture of the Middle Ages and Renaissance England, he most recently spent thirteen years as a professor of English at the Sage Colleges in Troy and Albany, NY. During his time there, he also served as chair of the Department of English and Modern Languages, director of general education, director of study abroad, chair of the Faculty Development Committee, faculty advisor for the student newspaper, and was the founding director of the Kathleen Donnelly Center for Undergraduate Research. He joined CNU as the inaugural Director of Undergraduate Research and Creative Activity in September 2017.His book on the medieval glossed Bible was published by the University of Wales Press in 2013. In 2015, he co-edited and co-authored a monograph, Redefining the Paradigm, which discussed new models for faculty evaluation to improve student learning. His new book, The Seven Deadly Sins: How Sin Influenced the West from the Middle Ages to the Modern Era, was published by Praeger in April 2019. He has published essays on everything from medieval mysticism to anger in the Bible, and has given presentations on teaching and faculty evaluation models at conferences, such as the Teaching Professor and the annual AACU Conference. Medieval manuscripts are perceived differently by the human senses compared to common text today, offering a unique and multisensory experience: 1. Visual Aesthetics: Medieval manuscripts, often handwritten and lavishly decorated, showcase intricate calligraphy, elaborate illustrations, and vibrant colors. The visual aesthetics of these manuscripts evoke a sense of artistry and craftsmanship that is distinct from modern printed text. 2. Tactile Sensation: The parchment or vellum used for medieval manuscripts provides a tactile experience as one feels the texture of the material beneath their fingers. This physical interaction with the medium adds a sensory dimension to reading and handling these historical texts. 3. Aged Scent: Over time, medieval manuscripts develop a distinct aroma, carrying the scent of antiquity. This aged smell can evoke a feeling of connection to the past and contribute to the overall sensory experience. 4. Historical Connection: Reading medieval manuscripts allows individuals to connect with the past in a way that digital or modern printed texts cannot replicate. The physicality of holding an ancient document establishes a direct link to the historical era in which it was created. 5. Auditory Silence: Unlike the electronic devices that accompany much of modern reading, medieval manuscripts invite a quieter environment for exploration. The absence of electronic buzz allows readers to immerse themselves in the silence of the written word. 6. Cultural Imagination: The experience of reading medieval manuscripts transports readers into a different cultural mindset, understanding the context in which these texts were written, interpreted, and appreciated. 7. Spiritual and Mystical Essence: For manuscripts related to religion and mysticism, the act of reading becomes a spiritual journey, as the physicality of the text and the esoteric content converge to create a unique spiritual experience.In summary, medieval manuscripts offer a multisensory encounter that goes beyond the mere act of reading. The visual aesthetics, tactile sensation, historical connection, and spiritual essence create a captivating journey that connects readers to both the words on the page and the distant world from which they emerged. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles, the track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Tuesday, it's such a beautiful day, and I, let me just say this. Everybody buckle up for a mind-bending journey as we welcome the one and only doctor. Dr. David Solomon, a professor whose creativity flows like a river of ideas, carving new channels in the world of art and imagination, whose brilliance cast a radiant glow on the path of artistic exploration, a virtuoso of originality, painting vivid landscapes that captivate the hearts of all of those who encounter them. Dr. David Solomon, I'm so thankful you're here today.

Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on who you are and where you're from. Well, George, first I got to correct you, it's Wednesday, not Tuesday. But second, will you give my eulogy at my funeral, please? Because that was brilliant. Thank you so much. Yes, I am a professor of medieval literature, religion, culture. I've been for over three decades. I'm currently the director of research and creative activity at Christopher Newport University in Newport, Newport, Newport, New York, where my office facilitates.

undergraduate research and creative opportunities for students across the institution. And I continue to teach in our honors program and our museum studies program and written a bunch of books. My most recent book is on The Seven Deadly Sins. And I started in graduate school really on the track for my dissertation, interested in English mysticism. So I think that's where we're going. Yeah. We have started this new series called the Codex Chronicles. And I find the world of manuscripts and mysticism and religion and spirituality so fascinating.

And I'm so thankful to get to talk to you because you speak all these different languages and you can read the text in their original format. And it's a real pleasure to get to talk to you. And I believe that my audience and people are out there are thirsty for this kind of information. And I really believe there's an audience that is loving it. I'm getting a lot of cool email. So thank you for being here today. We're going to talk about a manuscript today. Maybe you can, the cloud of the unknowing.

What is this? Yeah, so the cloud of unknowing is probably one of the most famous mystical works. It continues to be very popular today. I imagine that you can probably walk into just about any bookstore and go to their religion section, and they'll probably have a copy of one of the editions on the shelf. We don't know who the author is. It was written in the latter half of the 14th century. So this is the height of, really, of English mysticism, 14th century English mysticism. There's a

flurry of activity. And I think in the coming weeks we're going to talk about some of the the different works and authors. And the cloud of a knowing is one of those, originally written in Middle English. So a little bit unusual in that. We're starting to see by the time we get to the 14th century in England, these works being written more in the vernacular and not being written just in Latin. So they are intended, it would seem for a broader audience. There are 17 known manuscripts of this work. So it survives. Two of the best known are in the British Library and Cambridge University Library. As I say, we don't know who the author is. He's probably a priest. He's certainly a spiritual director because that's how he is addressing the work as someone who is overseeing

the spiritual direction of an individual. He clearly knows his Thomas Aquinas. He knows the Greeks. It wasn't as popular work at the time as some of the other ones that we're going to discuss in the coming weeks because it was addressed to solitaries who were really on advanced levels of the mystical journey. And so that wasn't, you know, Joe Schmoe walking on the street. These are people who are seriously involved in engaging in this kind of work and this kind of life. And probably the best way that we can kind of set up what this is all about is just to kind of give a really brief paradigm of what that mystical journey is. right and so this is a very famous work called mysticism written by evelyn underhill evelyn underhill english scholar herself a spiritual individual and this work which she published

in 1911 in many ways became the the standard text and really if you're going to study mysticism from an academic perspective this is i think the first place that you really have have to go. And in the work, she very clearly outlines that there are essentially three stages in the mystical journey. The first one, she calls illumination. So it's, as the name sort of indicates, the light bulb comes on, right? Ah, this is, this is what this is. This is, uh, you know, available to me. This is possible. And then the next stage is more active. It's purgation. You have to purge the self of the things that are getting in the way, for lack of another way of putting it. And that it brings you then to the third level, which is the ultimate goal here, which is

the unitive union, union with the divine. And, you know, what that looks like and what that means obviously up for lots of, lots of discussion. But the cloud of unknowing fits in a kind of an odd spot in history of mystical literature, because it is one of the earliest pieces in English that really advocates for what's called negative theology. So the author is interested in negative theology, what is called in the literature, apathetic theology, which is basically looking at God and the divine through negation rather than affirmation. The approach here is that the divine is ineffable. We can't explain it.

We don't know what it is. Any words are going to fail us because it's beyond human language. And so as a result, the approach is sort of take a complete 180 and say, well, let's talk about what it isn't. And that's really what negative theology is about. And it's an important approach. It's an important approach. So that was a lot by way of introduction. I'm sorry about that.

Not at all. It's very informative. And I think it's imperative that we lay a foundation for people so they can begin to understand it. And I, it's in some ways, it reminds me of Alfred North Whitehead where he talks about mysticism, clarification, action. I've never thought about putting a negative theology on there. But it's, it's an interesting way. And it seems that just the title alone, the cloud of the unknowing, it's kind of foreshadowing,

how they're going to figure it out a little bit, right? Yeah, and I mean, surprisingly, you know, from the description that I just gave, it sounds like, oh, my gosh, this must be so complicated. It's actually 75 very short chapters. The chapters, quote, unquote, are a few paragraphs. It's very readable, but it is very, very complex. And, you know, I went back and pulled my copy off the shelf in advance of our discussion. and it was interesting because I haven't,

I have to say I haven't revisited this text personally in many, many years. And just to go through and see what I underlined on the notes that I made myself is always kind of interesting. But, you know, I think the author really sets up everything in the fourth chapter when he really talks about what that cloud is. And if you, if you don't mind, I'm just going to read the paragraph. Please. So he refers to this as being a darkness, right? everyone talks about the divine as being light. And he says, actually, it's darkness. But he says, and I quote, do not think that because I call it a darkness or a cloud, it's the sort of cloud you see in the

sky, or the kind of darkness you know at home when the lights out. That kind of darkness or cloud, you can picture in your mind's eye in the height of summer, just as in the depth of winter's night, you can picture a clear and shining light. I do not mean this at all. By darkness, I mean a lack of knowing. Just as anything that you do not know or may have forgotten may be said to be dark to you, for you cannot see it with your inward eye. For this reason, it's called a cloud, not of the sky, of course, but of unknowing, a cloud of unknowing between you and your God.

And I just think that's really, it's counterintuitive to what we do as human beings because we're so intellectual. And certainly there is a tremendous pathway in the mystical literature for the intellect and the role of the intellect. But almost all of the writers in the Middle Ages will all say that the intellect is only going to get you so far. At some point, you got to let go. And America picked up on this, right? I mean, I always talk about this with my students when we do a broad discussion. of spirituality, if you get a dollar bill out, if anybody still carries dollar bills, and you look at the seal on the back, the pyramid with the eye of God at the top,

there's a lot of symbolism in that seal. But one of the things is that intelligence can only get you so far. There are 21 stages there, which the 21 is the age of reason. And then there's a gap between the top of the pyramid and the eye of God, because reason's not going to get you there. right that's the leap of faith and in many ways that's what the author here is talking about you're going to get to a certain point and then you're going to get to this darkness this cloud of unknowing which for us as human beings you know especially today in our ultra you know

rational world we want to know and want to understand everything and the author is saying you're not going to understand this you've got to give yourself over to it it's mind-blowing to me because it seems to me, and as someone who's not a scholar in this area, you can really begin to see that break, whether it's that leap of faith, but the way you're explaining it, and when I hear about some of the medieval mystics,

it seems that there was a break between people actually having real mystical experiences and then trying to put them down versus an interpretation of one. Yeah, well, and of course, you know, we got to stop right there and say real mystical experience, what does that mean? Right?

You know, if it's real to you, I mean, because a mystical experience is something which is so incredibly personal, it's really, you really can't say to somebody, oh, well, you didn't have that experience, right? It's the thing we run into when people are saying, you know, well, I'm really depressed. And they're saying, oh, don't feel that way. It's like, well, that doesn't help. You don't know what that's like. So, you know, I think there is a, there's an interesting.

change that occurs, to be sure. I mean, in a lot of the earlier theologians in Augustine and Aquinas and Bernard of Clairavaux, a lot of the earlier Christian theologians, and that's where I'm staying at the moment is with Christianity, although it's not exclusively there, but those guys all did have what they would claim to be mystical experiences as part of their biographies. It was a gateway for them to higher intellect. Whereas for a lot of these mystics that we're talking about, such as the author of The Cloud of Unknowing,

it isn't really a gateway to higher intellect. It's a gateway to love of the divine, exclusively. So whereas somebody like Aquinas is so intellectual, and I mean, you know, his work is just incredible. It's informed by his experience of the divine. sometimes a mystic will stop there. And so we'll see that with a couple of the writers that we're going to look at where you're right. I mean, they are interested in relaying the experience more than interpreting what it means.

And for others, I mean, you know, the author of the cloud of unknowing does not claim to be, quote, unquote, a mystic. I don't know that anybody can claim to be a mystic. I mean, what does that mean? You can't exactly look up the job description in the occupational handbook. And I was joke with students and I say, you know, try putting that down on your IRS tax return under profession and good luck. You know, you really can't. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way.

And by the same token, and I think the author of our text today also would argue that you can't set out to say, I want that to happen. I want to have a mystical experience. Because as just about every mystical writer will tell you, including folks like Evelyn Underhill and the scholars, these experiences come uninvited. That doesn't mean that one can't prepare oneself for it. And that's what many of these handbooks, and really that's what the cloud of unknowing is. is are teaching you to do to prepare your self body and soul, right, intellect as well, for this experience. And if it happens, fantastic, congratulations. But, I mean, they're all

clear on the fact that this isn't going to happen to everybody. In fact, I mean, the cloud author says, you know, this isn't for everybody because I don't even want everybody to read this text, right? I mean, in the prologue, I think he talks about, you know, he doesn't want sort of average folks reading the text because this isn't for them. What does he say here? There's a great sentence. Let's see if I can find it, where he talks about the fact that he doesn't expect that, yeah, he says, I do not mind at all if the loud, this is, this is the the wonderful translation by Clifton Walters. And there are lots of translations in the cloud, obviously.

But he says, I do not mind at all at the loudmouthed or flatterers or the mock modest or fault finders, gossips, tittle-tattlers, tail-bearers, or any sort of grumbler, never see this book. I've never meant to write for them so they can keep out of it. And so can all those learned men and unlearned too who are merely curious, right? That's not what he's looking for. And so it really becomes clear that his audience, he's got an audience in mind. It's people who are serious about this, who are serious about leading this kind of a life. And, you know, he really sets up the contrast right from the get-go between an act of life and a contemplative life.

It's mind-blowing to me just to sit and listen to something like that that was written so long ago. and on some level have it be so heartwarming and beautiful and explanatory in so many different ways today. You know, I'm curious if you wouldn't mind, maybe you said that you had revisit this book for the first time in a long time. I'm curious if you could maybe, maybe you could check out some of the parts that you underlined when you were there and then talk about them today and how you feel about it. Sure, sure. Yeah, I found it interesting as I was as I was looking through. it that, you know, when you look at things, when you go back and look at a text that you've not worked with in a while, it's always kind of interesting because you pick up new things

and you're looking at it through a new lens, right? I know a lot more now than I did when I read this text originally, which was probably, oh, probably close to 30 years ago when I was working on my doctoral dissertation. And, you know, one of the things that I, that I, that I, that I underlined and that I noted was this interesting bit that he has, and it's in Chapter 72, 71, where he's talking about Moses. Now, there's a lot about Moses in mystical literature, about Moses, and Gregory of Nisa, who wrote a life of Moses is often credited as being a big, influence on the writer of the cloud of unknowing. And in the life of Moses and in Philo of Alexandria's life of Moses, which is just a brilliantly written work, both of them talk about Moses as kind of a

type, as a prototype, right? He's an exemplar of the mystic for them. And, you know, he, I love the the discussions about him because in this chapter in the cloud, he says, before Moses could see the ark and learn how it was to be made, he had to climb with long and toilsome efforts of the top of the mountain and remain there and work in a cloud for six days and wait till on the seventh day, our Lord condescended to show him the way in which the ark should be made. Moses' long and strenuous efforts and his delayed vision symbolize those who cannot reach the full height of this spiritual work without such preliminary effort and toil. And all of the writers talk about Moses preparing to go up the mountain. We're talking about him going up to the mountain to get the Ten Commandments,

right, and get the instructions on how to build the Ark of the Covenant. And there's a lot in the literature about the preparation that he had to go through before he went up the mountain in order to do this. And that is often looked at as being a model for the mystical journey. But again, he follows this, the cloud author does, by telling us this isn't going to happen to everybody. He says Moses could only see, in quotes, on rare occasions. And then after much hard work, right? I mean, this doesn't, this is hard work.

This is hard work. And, you know, we talk all the time about it in the spiritual and spiritual realms. We talk about it in psychology. You've got to do the work. Right. Right. And the work is hard work. And it is probably harder to do today than it ever has been before because of, you know,

the myriad distractions that we have and all the other noise. But I love that image. And it's mostly because as a child, I, I was really engaged with the story of Moses. I love the Ten Commandments, which actually I had talk about that in the Seven Deadly Sins book in the introduction. I grew up in that film. And so Moses was a model for me as well. I didn't even really know why.

And then when I would read about all of these writers talking about him as a model for the mystical or spiritual life, and you think about what he has to go through in order to get to that point, And of course, ultimately, if you want to look at the Exodus story, in some ways he fails. Because he doesn't, I mean, he achieves some kind of union, momentary union with the divine at the burning bush. But really for him, his goal is to get to the promised land. And the promised land for him is a euphemism for that unity with the divine. And he's denied that. He has to stand on the other side of the river and watch as they leave and go with Joshua across the river.

It's an incredible story. It is an incredible story. It really colors in the idea of faith. And when you say doing the hard work, like knowing that it's almost unachievable, but doing it anyway. Like that's so powerful to think about. Like, you know it's not going to work, but you know, you have to do it. And there's just, that's it. Because the fact that you don't know it isn't going to work is also a sign of your humility.

Yes. Yes. Right. I mean, if you go into it with that arrogant feeling that you, oh, I know how to do this. I got this, you know, I really, if we do that, if we do anything like that, right? oftentimes it blows up in our face. And so, you know, the going into any endeavor with a sense of humility is probably a good thing, which, you know, is what's lacking in so many folks, you know, and I'm thinking about the folks who often show up in the news, right?

I mean, our leaders, right, seem to have, you know, no sense of real humility. And that often backfires on them. And when I think about what we've just spoken about or some parts that you have read right there, it seems to me that there is something really courageous in sitting with uncertainty. And like that is, like that to me seems like humility in a way. Like the fact that we seem to find ourselves so certain all the time or these people that know we're going to do this and this. Like there's something so beautiful in someone who has the courage to sit with uncertain.

but it is tough oh it's it's almost you know it's very difficult yeah it's frightening and and you know it just is counterintuitive to who we are because we're taught

to use our rational selves in order to figure things out um you know we we just got I think I mentioned two new kittens and to watch them as they kind of figure things out it's kind of it's interesting it is um you know they are not willing to sit with uncertainty.

They will try just about anything that's possible and fail. And then, you know, the odd thing, of course, is that they don't necessarily always learn from that where we would, we would hope, that, you know, okay, that's not the way to do this or the way to go. But I think that that's right. You know, and that uncertainty is part of what I do for a living as being an education, right? I mean, you know, I'm teaching my course this fall coming up on the Bible as literature. And I always have students who come in the first day, the height of arrogance. Oh, I know the Bible. You know, to which my response is then why are you taking the class?

You know, why you hear? You say you already know this. You're coming in already so self-assured. What can I teach you? and some of those folks will drop the class, and some will stay in it and will kind of push back. And it's really interesting because to see over the first few weeks of the course usually, when they start realizing that what they were so certain about, maybe that's not really what they thought it was.

you know and it often I often encounter because they've been you know a certain story or certain certain section has been explained to them in some way in in their religious school or by their parents and you know and I'm approaching this not from a devotional perspective but from an academic perspective and I'll explain what the interpretation of this is and what it means and they will fight me on it and fight me on it. One of my favorites is, and I think we've talked about this before, you know, we talk about the immaculate conception. And, you know, students think it's the conception of Jesus. And I say, no, it's the conception of Mary by Anne, her mother. Oh, no, no, no, you're wrong. Just tell me, I'm dead wrong. I'm absolutely wrong. And I will also, you know, go ask your priest on

Sunday and they go and they come back and they say, oh, yeah, I was wrong. And I think that that learning that humility, that ability to be humble in your education, really in your personal growth in general is what we're talking about. Right. Is so significant. You know, I had a bookstore in the 1980s. And I remember I had a customer call up once for a particular book because it was on a high school reading list when they still read in high schools. And they needed, I think it was the mother, needed a copy of the book because the kid was on the kid's reading list for the summer. And the phone call was taken by the woman who was running the cash register. And she called to me and and asked me if we had the book.

And I arrogantly corrected her pronunciation of the author's last name because I thought I knew better. And I realized not soon after that that I was wrong. And I felt foolish. And I felt, I mean, incredibly humbled. I mean, this is an experience that I had that probably was, oh, my gosh, close to 50 years ago and I'm still talking about it now. And the book was Albert Camus the stranger. She said, do we have a copy of that? And I said, Camus, I said, what do you mean, Camus?

Because I did not know what was pronounced Camus. I didn't know he was French. I don't think I'd ever read the book at that point. And so, you know, the fact that there's always room for us to learn is a hard thing to process, I think. It's part of, our growth, right? Is understanding, as Socrates says, you know, the one thing I know is I don't know anything. Yeah. And I think that's a good way to go into things. Well, yeah, I mean, the cloud of unknowing, if you look at it as a metaphor, possibly, it's

maybe we should all have a cloud of unknowing around us. And that's the humility. You know, it's the, I had written down the exploration of the concept of divine love, contemplation, and the pursuit of God through a state of unknowing. And it seems like there's so much in there. When you talk about the cloud of unknowing and then you can talk about how, whether it's having humility about a book coming in or teaching a class, like it's, I guess it gets back to the idea of the negative theology that you said.

Like it's so important to come from that angle. And I didn't even really think about that angle or have any idea about that angle. but it's imperative to understand. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, as I've said, I mean, when I teach a seminar, you know, I tell my students, I say, I don't know everything.

I want you to bring what you know to the class. I said, I may know more than you do about this topic, but it doesn't mean I know everything about everything. And I want that, you know, as I've always talked about, you know, again, going back to Socrates, that teaching is a cooperative search for truth. But, you know, it's interesting. because so much of what the cloud of a knowing is about is about almost unlearning

how we learn to do this. Because in some ways, and I mean, it sounds cliched, but you've got to let go. And, you know, we struggle with that on a daily basis, I think, of letting go. You know, some of it is, is, some of it is letting go and letting your intuition take over. But in this case, you know, the cloud of a knowing is asking you to let go to make space for the divine to enter. That is, as long as there is all of that clutter and, you know, how did he refer to it in the prolog? And that, in Walter's great translation, he called him, you know, know, fault finders, tiddle, tattelers, there's all this just crap going on.

Yeah. And it's just like, you know, you got to let that go. Because otherwise, you can't make space for the divine to come in. And so much of what I think is interesting about this book, and it's the other thing that I found interesting as I went through my own underlining in the text is how focused he is on the potential, on our potential. that we're looking at the fact that everyone really has this potential. It's just a matter of whether or not again you ready yourself for it and you prepare yourself because it is a process. And the potentiality of ourselves is something which really interests me.

It's big in Jungian psychology, of course, as well. And the idea that we oftentimes seem to negate that potential and think, oh, no, no, no, right? I'm not good enough for that. You know, I run into that in my job here trying to find students who want to do research, and I really want to get those students who are first-generation college. We have a large contingent of them. and they're the ones who oftentimes come in thinking, oh, no, no, I can't do that.

And so it's really a matter of teaching people to embrace their potential. You know, it seems to me when we when we investigate this text, that it's really close to a lot of Eastern ideas about Buddhism and stuff like that and letting go. And was there a closer tie in that particular time? Or how do you? there's a lot of discussion about whether or not the two traditions intersected in any kind of real way. It seems unlikely until you get into the 15th and 16th centuries when the age of exploration and travel really kicks in. So, you know, by the time you get to the 16th century, you've got, you know, Jesuits, for example, going to China.

And so there obviously is a lot of crossover there. prior to that, it's kind of unclear whether or not there is a lot of connection. I mean, obviously there are thematic and content connections, you know, but whether we can trace those and say, oh, well, the author knew this text, but, you know, we can't do that. We don't know. I just think what it comes down to is that, you know, this journey, and that's what's so great about Underhill's book, is the mystical journey, the way that it's presented, applies regardless of what religious tradition you're looking at it.

It works for Christianity, it works for Judaism, works for Islam, it works for Buddhism, it works for Taoism, it works for Hinduism. I mean, it works across the board, that idea of illumination, purgation, and union. And that's what's so nice about the way that she writes about it is she's not talking about, you know, union with the Christian God. It's union with the divine. That's why I keep referring it to it that way. Because whatever your concept of the divine might be. There does seem to be this thread, if we pull on it, that getting away from the conditioning that you've been taught your whole life

is in itself a wonderful experience. And it allows you to see clearly in a way, which is almost divine in its own way. Yes. but by the same token, I do believe that there's an importance to having that foundation, even if it's a foundation that you need to do,

you know, major renovation on. Right? Because without the foundation, what do you have to build on? You're starting from scratch. And so, you know, I don't want necessarily the student to come into my Bible's literature class

and say, oh, I don't know anything about the Bible. I've never even looked at it. That's just as bad to me as the student who comes in and arrogantly says, oh, I got this. That's the two ends of the spectrum, and that's not what I'm looking for, right? I want somebody who has some familiarity with this, even if it's just from a cultural level on a cultural level,

and is able to, I mean, the most fun I have with teaching really any text and any course, course is talking about ideas with students where, you know, you see all of a sudden the change in their thinking occurs. It's like, oh, I never thought about that before. It's like, yep, good. Let's think about that a little bit. What does that mean? And, you know, that may, and I think that for a lot of people who would have approached the cloud of unknowing, particularly in the 14th century when it was written, they would find this antithetical to what they've been taught, which is the way to get to the divine, the way to get to God is by studying, by praying, by being very active,

and this author is saying, that's not really going to work. It's only going to get you so far. Then you've got to let go. And I don't think a lot of people are. ready for that. What do you think it is that is different in the person that is ready for it versus the person that's not ready for it? I think it's a combination of preparation and experience. Right. I mean, as the cloud author talks about, you know, you need to be prepared.

So there are stages that you have to go through. There are things that you have to experience, you know, as as Underhill would say, I mean, you need to go through that purgation. stage. But there also is a big part of it that has to do with experiencing life. Yes. And experiencing existence. Because without those experiences, I don't know what you bring to the table.

I mean, you know, in a couple of weeks, I think we're going to look at, I forget, are we looking at the book? Yeah, you want to do the book of Marjorie Kemp. Marjorie Kemp, incredibly interesting woman, an incredibly interesting book. But, you know, what an odd existence she had prior to her initial experiences, as we'll talk about. I mean, you know, this is, first of all, in the 14th century, she's a woman writing about this, which, you know, is unusual right from the get-go. And so, you know, a lot of the texts that we're going to look at, I think, with maybe two exceptions, are, written by men. And there is a tremendous amount of difference between the two approaches, which has been

studied widely in the mystical literature in academia, and difference between, you know, the feminine and the masculine approach to this. It's very, very different. But we'll talk about that when we get to those texts. But I do think it's experience. I mean, obviously the cloud author has lived. the life of experience. I mean, he doesn't know that tells us what it is,

but the way that he talks to us about going about this journey indicates to me that he's experienced stuff. He's had experiences. And, you know, the interesting thing is that something like Richard Rolls the Fire of Love, which I think we're going to look at, maybe next week, I forget, is it's autobiographical. And so he's telling us about his own experiences as he's going on this journey and the ways in which his life as a human being, as a man, particularly, are kind of intersecting and budding up against his desire for union with the divine. because the two of them don't go together.

You know, it's why, it's why, you know, there are still lots of Christian orders that, you know, live cloistered existences, nuns and monks. There is a need to distance oneself from a secular existence. to really engage in this kind of work. And I think that still is appropriate today. I mean, we can do this work individually as we are, but I don't think we're going to achieve it in the same way or achieve the same sense of completion

that someone does who is leading a kind of a cloistered life. And that cloistered life, you know, has always intrigued me. And there are people who still do it today. I mean, a lot of people would say that academia is, you know, that's what became of the cloistered life in the secular world, was working in higher education. And that's why, you know, most of the older universities go to Cambridge and Oxford. I mean, you walk around and they look like churches. That's not an accident.

And of course, the folks who taught there in the Middle Ages lived there. So they did, you know, live that kind of life and devoted to the life of the mind. And I would say that, you know, as I mentioned, I mean, I have a good friend who's a Cistercian monk in Massachusetts. So I know him and some of the other guys at the monastery pretty well. over several decades now. And they are not living a life of the mind. I would say that they're living a life of the soul. I think there's a difference there.

And it's not that they aren't engaged in intellect. It's that that's not their focus. Their focus is the soul. Whereas the focus for folks in my line of work in higher ed our focus is the intellect. We're not necessarily negating the importance of the soul or ignoring it, but the mind is, it has dibs, right? It comes first. Excuse me. And that's just an interesting dichotomy in our world. And to think about, you know, how many people in the Middle Ages and up until, you know, Henry of the Eighth came along in England,

engaged in that kind of life by being in monasteries and it's just it's really kind of amazing you know now that number is is dwindling globally not just in the U.S. You know, my friend's monastery, which is one of the most, you know, successful in the Cistercian order. You know, as he calls them, the guys, the boys are all getting old. You know, they're dying off and there aren't enough people coming in. And so a lot of the monasteries are closing down. One of the Cistercian monasteries, one of the big ones in the Midwest, I forget where it is,

I think they're going to close down because they just, there aren't enough guys. There aren't enough people who choose to lead that kind of life, who choose to pursue the cloud of unknowing rather than, whether it's the almighty dollar or, you know, knowledge. You know, I had to laugh before we came on air. I was, somebody had posted a link to a YouTube video. Pee Wee Herman died the other day. And apparently he was on the dating game in 1979.

The video is on YouTube. It is, I mean, it's hilarious. It's hard to believe. I was watching it shaking my head thinking this couldn't have been 1979 because it seems I mean it's so incredibly sexist and misogynistic it seems like it had to have been you know 1959 but it wasn't it was 1970 but the reason I bring it up is um why did I bring that up um I lost my complete train of thought that we were talking about more people are choosing not the cloud of a knowing with or choosing a different life.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is what struck me. One of the contestants said that his, his big goal and his biography when they introduced him was to make money. That's it. Not, it didn't say anything about what profession he wants to go.

You know, when he's doing, his goal was to make money. He did not get picked. Neither to Pee We Herman, unfortunately. But I was just so struck by that when the introduction. of him was that, you know, he wants to make money.

And that's what a lot of people focus on. And as we know, you know, look at the chapter of my book on the seven deadly sins, you know. Averis is not a good thing. You know, Gordon Gecko was wrong. Greed is not good. Yeah, it's almost a jump-off point for our society when we decided to unbuckle ourselves from from real meaningful events versus the illusion of meaning, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's something which, it seems to me, has occurred dramatically in the U.S. since the end of World War II. There's been such a shift in our focus on what's important. And it's difficult, you know, for people who even want to go back to focusing on what's important, it's a difficult thing to do, given the world in which we live. It's hard. It's hard. It's interesting.

You know, we're talking about the manuscript, the cloud of the unknowing. And in today's world, we're all downloading our stuff to the cloud, to an alien group. they'd be like, this cloud of unknowing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's not that similar, right? I mean, he says in the text, it's not a real cloud in the sky. Right.

And, you know, when you talk to people about the cloud, you know, they say, you talk to somebody who's older about the cloud, you know, my information lives on the cloud. They're like, where is that? It's like, well, it's not a real cloud. And so, you know, there is an interesting aspect to that because he does talk in the text about the role of imagination and all this. and in some ways imagination can get in the way of all of this

because you use it and it serves as a barrier you know at one point in some of the middle chapters I remember he he goes through the different faculties and talks about why they're all you know the significance of all starting chapter 63 where he talks about the mind

64 he talks about reason In 65, he talks about imagination. He says imagination is the faculty by which we can picture anything, past as well as present. Both it and the means by which it works are contained in the mind. I mean, this is amazing stuff for the 14th century. Before man sinned, he says, imagination was so obedient to its master reason that it never pictured anything that was perverted or fantastic physically or spiritually, but not so now. For is not restrained by the light of grace in the reason. It will, for if it is not restrained by the light of grace in the reason, it will never cease waking or sleeping to suggest diverse and perverted ideas about the world around us, or some hallucination, which after all is only a spiritual idea conceived in material terms or a material one conceived in spiritual. And this is always counterfeit and false and akin to error.

That is, who. Yeah. And it's interesting because it picks right up on something which occurs. You know, I've always been intrigued by this idea of faculty psychology that your mind has these separate faculties. And in John Milton's Paradise Lost, which is retelling the story of the fall, it's really in some ways, it's Eve's imagination that gets the best of her. And it's constantly, God is constantly telling Adam and stressing the importance of reason. Reason is chief. Reason, he says, I gave you as an umpire at one point, he says. So if you're battling about a choice, go to reason. And the problem for Eve in what happens to her in that particular text, in the way that she's tempted by the serpent by Satan, is that it's her imagination that gets the best of her.

she lets her reason her reason fails um her reason she's been told don't eat the fruit you're going to die the serpent comes along and says oh you're not going to die i ate the fruit and look at me i can talk and i can i can walk upright and of course the problem is she never saw him do that she's relying on what he said and then he puts all of these ideas into her head about how she'll be you know she'll be able to fly like an angel and it the imagination gets the best of her and so she she takes a bite um it's it's interesting because imagination's so important but very clearly you know in in faculty psychology it has a funny kind of a of a spot because um you know and and shakespeare does this in hamlet even talks about an enamelet right when you remember hamlet or ophelia is has gone clear

crazy and she's out there talking all kinds of crazy things in the street and it gets reported back to the king that she's doing that. And the line is something to the effect of the rabble, the people hear what she's saying and it doesn't make any sense. It's just gibberish, but they take it and they use their imagination and they put it into an order that makes sense to them. And so they're perverting what it is that she's saying. you know it's a it's it's it's an interesting it's an interesting problem a tale of sound and fury completely avoid for me dr deven it's element we could probably go for another hour but you got you got a hard line coming up and i want to make sure that you

make that this how fast did this go are you kidding me like yeah yeah right it's so much fun and i i i really love the direction in which we were able to navigate And I'm going to go back and have to re-listen to it because there's a lot of parts I want to highlight it and rethink on. I'm glad. I'm glad. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of people. I think it's a pretty esoteric topic. It is. But I think that there's a thirst for it, especially now more than ever. And I really think we are reaching an audience of people that want to learn.

And we may be the only resource they have right now. We may be the esoteric gateway into a world of faculty imagination. You know what I mean? I'm thankful for that. Yeah, I wonder how many podcasts are out there talking about topics like this. So we are unique. Are we not? We are, of course.

And next week we'll do Marjorie Kemp. Okay. A book of Marjorie Kemp for next week. Yes, let's do that. And on the topic of books, you have a tremendous one that you and I went through here, the seven deadly censor for anybody who found this particular conversation to be enlightening or beautiful or fun. I highly recommend you check out Dr. Solomon's book, The Seven Deadly Sins. It's incredible read.

You'll come out being a better person and have a better understanding of it. And you've got another book coming up. Maybe you could just, I know you're short on time, but maybe you could talk a little bit about where people can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. Yeah. So my website is David A. Solomon. It's s-l-o-m-O-M-O-N.com.

And you can find my books, my speaking stuff, my just about everything up there including my consulting what i'm excited about i continue to be excited about teaching in the fall um so fall semester is coming quick upon us our first day of class here is three short weeks away so um we are preparing and uh everything that goes along with that so i really uh i love doing that and and getting ready for a new class and a new course and and and uh and i've also got a whole new group of students coming into the university so I can talk to them about doing research and creative work. So I'm excited about that as well. You know, I'm excited. Didn't you win an award recently? Didn't you get a, can you share that with people? I think that's

amazing. Our new president who has just come on board is a former rear admiral with the Coast Guard. He just resigned his commission and retired. And he is our incoming president of the university. And I had him at an event last week, which was the conclusion of my summer scholars program, where students are doing collaborative research with faculty over the summer. And he came to the event, which was lovely with his wife, and said a few words, which was very nice. And then he called me onto the stage. And he presented me with a challenge.

challenge coin. He explained what it was and for folks who aren't familiar with the tradition in the military, Google it. That's what Uncle Google there for. But I was incredibly flattered. And he said I was the first faculty member that he had given one to. So it was sitting here on my desk and I'm really, really humbled by it, speaking of humility. Well, congratulations. I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm excited for you. And I'm excited for the to see everything you got coming up and talk to you in the future. Now I'm holding you almost past your time.

Thank you so much for today. And I will talk to you soon. Well, next week, Marjorie Kemp. Ladies and gentlemen, Aloha.