TrueLife - Dr. David Salomon - Codex Chronicles/Richard Rolle

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Welcome to The Codex Chronicles… A professor’s Tale of Manuscripts.https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.comhttps://cnu.edu/people/davidsalomon/Dr. David A. Salomon holds a PhD in English literature from the University of Connecticut and an MA from the City University of New York. A specialist in the literature, religion and culture of the Middle Ages and Renaissance England, he most recently spent thirteen years as a professor of English at the Sage Colleges in Troy and Albany, NY. During his time there, he also served as chair of the Department of English and Modern Languages, director of general education, director of study abroad, chair of the Faculty Development Committee, faculty advisor for the student newspaper, and was the founding director of the Kathleen Donnelly Center for Undergraduate Research. He joined CNU as the inaugural Director of Undergraduate Research and Creative Activity in September 2017.His book on the medieval glossed Bible was published by the University of Wales Press in 2013. In 2015, he co-edited and co-authored a monograph, Redefining the Paradigm, which discussed new models for faculty evaluation to improve student learning. His new book, The Seven Deadly Sins: How Sin Influenced the West from the Middle Ages to the Modern Era, was published by Praeger in April 2019. He has published essays on everything from medieval mysticism to anger in the Bible, and has given presentations on teaching and faculty evaluation models at conferences, such as the Teaching Professor and the annual AACU Conference. Medieval manuscripts are perceived differently by the human senses compared to common text today, offering a unique and multisensory experience: 1. Visual Aesthetics: Medieval manuscripts, often handwritten and lavishly decorated, showcase intricate calligraphy, elaborate illustrations, and vibrant colors. The visual aesthetics of these manuscripts evoke a sense of artistry and craftsmanship that is distinct from modern printed text. 2. Tactile Sensation: The parchment or vellum used for medieval manuscripts provides a tactile experience as one feels the texture of the material beneath their fingers. This physical interaction with the medium adds a sensory dimension to reading and handling these historical texts. 3. Aged Scent: Over time, medieval manuscripts develop a distinct aroma, carrying the scent of antiquity. This aged smell can evoke a feeling of connection to the past and contribute to the overall sensory experience. 4. Historical Connection: Reading medieval manuscripts allows individuals to connect with the past in a way that digital or modern printed texts cannot replicate. The physicality of holding an ancient document establishes a direct link to the historical era in which it was created. 5. Auditory Silence: Unlike the electronic devices that accompany much of modern reading, medieval manuscripts invite a quieter environment for exploration. The absence of electronic buzz allows readers to immerse themselves in the silence of the written word. 6. Cultural Imagination: The experience of reading medieval manuscripts transports readers into a different cultural mindset, understanding the context in which these texts were written, interpreted, and appreciated. 7. Spiritual and Mystical Essence: For manuscripts related to religion and mysticism, the act of reading becomes a spiritual journey, as the physicality of the text and the esoteric content converge to create a unique spiritual experience.In summary, medieval manuscripts offer a multisensory encounter that goes beyond the mere act of reading. The visual aesthetics, tactile sensation, historical connection, and spiritual essence create a captivating journey that connects readers to both the words on the page and the distant world from which they emerged. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. We have today the one and only Dr. David Solomon, creative curriculum. leader and esteemed scholar with a passion for unraveling the intricate tapestries of history and faith. Looking forward to our conversation today, David. Can you tell the people a little bit more about you? Sure, absolutely. Oh, just excuse me. One second. I got a cough. Okay.

So I've been a professor of medieval literature, religion, and culture for 30 years. And currently I am at Christopher Newport University in Newport, Newport, Newport, New York, where I'm the director of research on creative activity. I also continue to teach in our honors program and our museum studies program and I've written a bunch of books. My most recent book is on the Seven Deadly Sins. And we're in the midst here of a really cool conversation about mysticism. Yeah, today we're digging in to Richard Roel. Yes. So Roel fits into the scheme of what we've been talking about. He's another one of the 14th century English mystics. So he's living just a little bit before Marjorie Kemp, who we discussed last time, and right around the same time as Julian

Norwich, who we're going to talk about next week. So they all are, along with another Englishman named Walter Hilton, the four of them are kind of the epitome of 14th century English mysticism. And role story is really kind of interesting i i became really interested in him in graduate school um i'd never heard of him before um he um is often referred to as richard rolle hermit of hampole um because he did end up leading a hermit's life which we can talk about in um himpole in england um he lived from about 1290 to 1349 and is well known and prolific. He wrote many, many books, but one of the things that he is most well known for is he's one of the first religious writers

to really write in the vernacular. He wrote in Middle English. He wrote a lot of work in Latin, but he did write some work in Middle English, which was the vernacular tongue at the time, so that normal everyday folks would be able to read. it. The book that we're talking about today is not the case because it was written in Latin. It's called the Fire of Love and the Latin title in Sendium Amoris. And it was translated into Middle English

and was a fairly popular book and it's time. And it's an interesting text because it's a blend of a handbook written specifically for someone interested in leading a mystical life, but it also is very autobiographical and tells us a lot about role himself. It is a real contrast with the cloud of unknowing, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago, because the cloud of knowing was all about knowing God and intellectually understanding God. Role is much more interested in the physical response,

as was Marjorie Kemp. And probably the two senses that are most important in Role are hearing and feeling. So he talks about feeling that fire of love in his heart. And oftentimes throughout the book, he talks about hearing music, hearing melodious sounds, and that is oftentimes the way that he experiences the divine. His own story is really kind of interesting.

He's Oxford educated, apparently spent time in Paris as well, came back to England then and lived on the estate of a guy named John Dalton and chose to lead the life of a hermit. Now, a hermit is someone who decides basically to separate from the way, world most often for spiritual or religious reasons. It is not the same thing as someone who leads a cloistered life. So, you know, sometimes people think hermits are people who live on their own and never see anybody. That's not necessarily the case. They do live on their own, but they oftentimes do see people and and and role did. In fact, he was a, uh, the counselor for, uh, a congregation of

nuns at a Cistercian monastery not too far from where he was, uh, residing. And it's to one of those nuns. It seems like he's writing, um, this particular book. Um, but in recent years, he has, um, taken quite a beating, um, in scholarship. and most the real reason for that is something that we discussed when we're talking about Marjorie Kemp is in the last 20, 30 years there's been a tremendous, it's not really a resurgence, but a surgeons in the study of female mystics and looking at a feminist approach to mysticism in the Middle Ages. And Role is pretty unabashedly, particularly in this work, a misogynist.

And so, you know, oftentimes people are turned off by that today and look at it. And I always, you know, I acknowledge that when I teach role. I mean, it's there. That's obviously who he was. But we also got to understand the 14th century. It's a different time and place. And so he tells us at one point, we can talk about it. It's one of the great passages in the book where he explains his own experience with women.

and basically what put him off women for the rest of his life. But the book itself, and I went through as I did with Marjorie Kemp, just to pick out some things that I thought might be of interest. You know, it's a curiosity. As I say, it was written in Latin. It was not written in Middle English. And yet in the prologue to it, he says that he writes the book not for philosophers or wise men.

but he writes for the ignorant and untaught. But that doesn't scan because the ignorant and untaught wouldn't have been able to read Latin. So it's a curious thing. We don't really know what's going on here and who is intended reader is. Yeah. It's interesting to have that dichotomy there. Maybe it's an attempt to, you know, translation and interpretation. It's kind of an interesting.

Yeah, to be sure. You know, and you mentioned dichotomy. I mean, this book is filled with dichotomies. It's filled with polarities, really. He is very clear about living in this world or living in the spiritual world, living the spiritual life or leading what we would now call a secular life. In fact, he says at one point in the opening chapter, love of God and love of this world can't reside together in the same soul.

He really is sold on the idea that in order to truly be devoted to God, be devoted to the divine, you have to separate yourself from this world. And for him, that meant physically. And of course, this is following in a great tradition, the desert fathers are doing that early on in the church. But, you know, what I think is, really kind of different for him is that, as I say, the book is filled with all these sort of dichotomies, contradictions. You know, I'm writing it for the ignorant and untought, but I'm writing

it in Latin and, you know, parentheses, they can't read Latin. He says, you know, the mystery, he calls it, of the mystical life. He said, is hidden from most people. It's only really accessible to a few. And so is the point of the book to instruct us on how to lead this life? I don't know. You know, is it meant for folks who are leading a secular life or is it written for folks who are already engaged in this kind of a religious existence? It seems more the latter than the former. But still, a lot of what he talks about is really kind of interesting. You know, he mentions that again later on in the book when he says,

I'm not saying that every man should do this. So, you know, he's clear that this is not something that everybody's going to be able to accomplish or that everybody even should try. You know, there's a reason why some folks in our culture choose this kind of an existence. And they still do. They continue to do. And I'm not just talking about folks who enter monasteries and convents, but there was a story several years ago that I share with my students whenever we do Richard Role.

I still have the cutting here from the New York Times. And it was a piece in the Times. I don't know what year this was because sadly I didn't put the year. but a gentleman in upstate New York was going to be consecrated as a hermit. And this was a ceremony that he was going to experience, which essentially was quite similar to the ceremony, the religious ceremony that nuns and monks go through where they essentially die to this world.

But, you know, he even mentions in this little, article that was in the Times. He's a Benedictine monk, this guy was. He lives at his solitary hermitage. He says he submits 20% of his time as a staff member of the church. And he also works as a chaplain at an alcohol and drug abuse center. So they're not cloistered, right? But he also notes that he says, few people are called to this vocation, noting that there are only a couple of dozen hermits in the United States, most famous was Thomas Merton. The Trappist Monk was a noted hermit. So it was really interesting because my students often say,

well, no one lives like that anymore. And then I whip this out and say, oh, yes, they do. You know, not many and not a lot, but there are people who do this. And by and large, I think that the way that they are regarded, is really one of two ways. I mean, folks who are faithful and spiritual have tremendous respect for what people like this are doing. And folks who are non-believers find it an oddity and don't understand it. But, you know, this is all part and parcel of what role is talking about throughout the, throughout his text.

I mean, he stresses, as I said, that, Everything is not intellectual. You have to experience life. But he's very, very strong on the virtue of humility. We have to be humble. He says, you're not going to experience this kind of life. You're not going to have this kind of mystical encounter with the divine if you aren't steeped in humility. And he repeats this over and over again in a variety of different ways.

One of the other strongest things that he talks about throughout the book is the conflict between appearance and reality. The way the world, including people, seem to us and the way that it all really is. And in particular, because he's writing just on the cusp of the Reformation, he's taking on a lot of the so-called holy people who he sees as being corrupt. And he says, you know, they only seem to be holy. Just be careful, right? And so that's why he chose, he said, not to pursue a life within the ecclesiastical hierarchy because he just didn't see that as being the most productive way for him of reaching the divine. It sounds like we're talking about his idea of anchores.

Yeah, it is a true. type of an of an anchorate experience of an anchorous experience um julia norwich you will talk about next week is an anchorate um and so we can sort of next week we can go over what the differences are between all these terms um because it is a little confusing because we don't i mean anchorate is not not a term that we hear very often anymore and there are people who engage in that life as well still today um you know fewer fewer to be sure than than once did but um it is not that unusual Yeah. Early in the discussion we talked about maybe some of his ideas towards women. Yeah.

And you got a story to share about that. Yeah. So he tells us quite clearly in the fire of love about what happened to him. And if you don't indulge me, I'll read you the two paragraphs where he tells us his story. He says there was a time when I was rebuked quite properly by three different women. One rebuked me because in my eagerness to restrain the feminine craze for dressy and suggestive clothes, I inspected too closely their extravagant ornamentation. So he, you know, and read what you will between the lines here. So he saw a woman who was dressed in a flashy kind of way, what he saw was flashy.

and he, as he says, inspected too closely the ornamentation. Does that mean, I don't know what that means. You can take it as you want. He says, she said, I ought not to notice them so as to know whether they were wearing horned headdresses or not. I think she was right to reprove me, he says. Another rebuked me because I spoke of her great bosom, as if it pleased me. She said, what business is of yours, whether it's big or little? She, too, was right.

the third jokingly took me up when I appeared to be going to touch her somewhat rudely. I mean, you know, clearly this is, you know, not appropriate for the Me Too generation. Because he says, and perhaps had already done so. So he's not even sure if he had touched her rudely, because maybe I did. But she says to him, calm down, brother. It was as if she had said it doesn't go with her office of hermit to be fooling with women. she too deservedly made me feel uncomfortable. Of course, people today would say it was really the reverse.

I ought to have held off rather than to have behaved this way. So he does say, you know, this was not good. When I came to myself, and I love that phrase, as he repeats it more than once in the book, when I came to myself, it's this sense of self-realization, of reflection and realizing what you, what you've done. It says when I came to myself, I thank God for teaching me what was right through

their words and for showing me a more pleasant way than my previous one, so that I might cooperate more fully with Christ's grace. I'm not going to put myself in the wrong with women hence forward. Then he says, a fourth woman, fourth woman with whom I was in some way familiar, did not so much rebuke me as despise me when she said, you are no more than a beautiful face and a lovely voice. You have done nothing. I think it better, and this is a conclusion,

then, I think it better, therefore, to dispense with whatever their particular contribution to life is, rather than to fall into their hands, hands which know no moderation, whether loving or despising. So, you know, it's, and then he goes on to say,

these things happen because I was seeking their salvation, not because I was after anything improper. Sounds like a little bit of a, of a over justification and rationalization. So, you know, I think it's interesting. I mean, it's somewhat humorous. I mean, given our situation today, it's not that funny anymore. You know, you hear about these kinds of situations all the time.

But his conclusion is that, you know, I should just stay away from women entirely. He says, you know, I know they've made some kind of particular contribution to life. It's not worth it. I'm staying away. And so that that misogynistic approach to his existence, you know, really permeates all of the work. And it just has an interesting, it serves as an interesting take on attitudes in the 14th century. You know, I often show my students there's this wonderful flow chart, which I wish I could share with you somehow. Now, it's out of a fantastic book by James Brundage called Law, Sex, and Christian Society in medieval Europe.

It's basically a book about law in the Middle Ages. And he has this great flowchart where he talks about, he calls it the sexual decision-making process. And basically, it's a flow chart that almost everything ends with stop. It's a sin. And there are very few kind of, you know, exceptions. to this and the exceptions are, do you want a child? And if you answer yes, then I'll tell you where you go. But if it's no, it's stop, it's a sin. Are you in church? Are you naked? Is it daylight? Is it Saturday? Is it Friday? Is it Wednesday? Is wife menstruating? Is wife pregnant? Is wife nursing a

child? Is it Lent? Is it Advent? Is it Woodson week? Is it Easter week? Is it a feast day? Is it a fast day? Is it a Sunday. And, you know, if you answer to all of those questions, yes, then it's going to lead you finally to go ahead, but be careful. No fondling, no lewd kisses, no oral sex, no strange positions, only once, try not to enjoy it, good luck and wash afterwards. And in many ways, that's the attitude towards sex in the medieval church, right? And so, you know, we've got to remember that this is a time period when we're still living in the shadow of the writings of folks like St. Augustine, who basically vilified Eve and said she's responsible for the downfall of man. And then along with her, that means all women. I don't know what that says about our wives, George. They might want 10 minutes for rebuttal.

Yeah. Maybe more than 10. I think it speaks to the ideas of intricate connection. And in roles work, there's an intricate connection between the divine and human will. How did he navigate that tension between personal agency and divine sovereignty? Yeah, I mean, it's one that's a constant conflict, right? And I mean, I mean, it's been a constant conflict even throughout philosophy when we talk about the mind-body problem. Right.

I mean, for religious folks, there's always this. this issue for mystics in particular that we are spiritual beings trapped in a physical structure, right? And for many mystics, the goal is to have that spiritual side of you engage in the communion with the divine and experience ecstasy, right? Ecstasy, out of body, the Greek. but Role does acknowledge throughout his work that we are physical. I mean, he says, you know, I experience this. I got heat in my chest. I feel the fire of love.

I hear music. So, I mean, these are sensual experiences that he's having. And to be sure, you know, Marjorie Kemp, who we talked about last time, is experiencing a lot of the same kinds of things, physical pain and physical joy as well. And so I think that this has always been a problem, and it continues to be a problem for a lot of people today, whether we're talking about a spiritual sense of yourself or the intellectual sense, right?

I mean, in the religious life and the monastic life, it's a way of getting away from the physical world to somehow be closer to God by removing yourself from everyday life. life. And for, you know, a lot of academics, myself included, I mean, that's what, you know, the university life is meant to emulate. It's the same kind of existence. It's just you are not completely divorced from the secular world. You're still attempting to live in it. But, I mean, as you mentioned, I think that there's always that pull of physical will and physical need

and physical desire. It's what we talk about in the seven deadly sins with lust, right? And the fact that intellectually, we know those are bad things. But because we are created the way that we are, it's difficult for us to navigate that and to find some kind of a balance, right? And more difficult for some people than others, which is, you know, the source of some.

many of our problems, isn't it? Yeah. Often you hear him talk about self-emptying to divine, to attain divine union. What does that mean to you? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's that scale, that journey that that, that Evelyn Underhill talked about, right? That journey through, you know, illumination, purgation, and then union.

So it's definitely, I mean, and all of the mystics talk about this is being. being progressive. It isn't something which is just going to boom happen. You know, Walter Hilton, who I mentioned earlier, I mean, his great work is called the ladder of perfection. He's talking about moving up the ladder, right, to reach that goal. And so it, there's so much of what's involved in these works is, is about process and about how you get there. And again, as we've talked about, it isn't necessarily focused on, on the goal because that's not what's important. And his role says, I mean, this isn't going to be for everybody, right?

People are going to engage in this and who aren't going to have that ultimate kind of experience. I mean, I know, you know, lots of monks, lots of guys who are in the monastery. And, you know, some of them are experiencing a spiritual kind of life on a different level than others. it isn't the same for everybody and role is really clear to tell you that so I think his fear is that you're going to pick up the book and say okay I'll read this book and I'll have my divine union

and he's saying it doesn't work that way in the context of his era revolutionary or heretical that's an interesting question because while he was alive I don't know if revolutionary is the right word but certainly not heretical. Once he died and the Reformation hits,

he is considered heretical by many. There was a movement afoot after he died to have him sainted. In fact, the nuns at the monastery drew up the initial documents, and we have them to present to the church, to have him go through the first step to sainhood. It never happened. The Reformation hit and all sorts of. of things occurred in England, of course, the English Reformation. He was still recognized in the Anglican

church. I think he still is today on the Anglican calendar. But I know that there is an image of role that in a manuscript, it was one of the only ones that we had for many years. In fact, it may be the front of this piece of this book that I've got here. No, it's not. And It's from a manuscript and it was an illustration of him and someone had had scratched out the face, you know, what we do in your books when we don't want to remember somebody, right? And this is the way, I mean, at the time, this was a way of trying to literally get rid of memory of somebody, right? And so somebody had scratched out the face so that we wouldn't see him because he was considered somewhat heretical. You know, I had mentioned several weeks ago, this volume, which I pulled off the shelf here, this is the Richard Roll of Hample, two volumes that I had wanted to have when I was in graduate

school, had searched high and low for. I'd only seen library copies of it before. And then I found this copy on the shelf and a used bookstore in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and I bought it. It cost me, wow, it cost me $60. Yeah. So, I mean, it was a big expense for me, especially in graduate school. But this is a volume.

This came out 1895. There were actually two volumes. But the really neat thing about the volume that I ended up buying, as I mentioned before, is it ends up, it's the volume that was owned by Geraldine Hodgson, who became a scholar of role. And she owned it. She dated it November 24, 1917. Wow. And it's got all sorts of things pasted into it. it and notes which are it's just really really a cool thing to have it's one of my uh my favorite

possessions is this volume um and it you know it's got the you know we talked about smell at one point you would it's got the smell of the the old the old book which is you know now what a hundred and thirty years old um but uh it he was popular you know he was popular you know he was popular and And he became more popular in the early 20th century when folks like Evan and Evelyn Underhill and especially Hope Emily Allen, Hope Emily Allen came along and she edited his work and reprinted it for the first time and in a long time in a really nice little volume. And kind of there was a resurgence of interest in him. A lot of work was attributed to him, which eventually we realized he didn't write. one of the most famous works in the Middle Ages is a very, very long piece called The Prick of Conscience. It's very long.

It's very dry. It's very laborious. And for a long time, it was attributed to him. In fact, in this volume, it is included as one of the things that's in the book because we thought it was hips. And later on, we realized he didn't write it. Actually, we don't know who wrote it, but it wasn't him. So, you know, there's still a lot of interesting work going on in this discipline. Yeah.

What parallels do you think can be drawn between Richard Ruhl's mysticism and the broader medieval mystic traditions in Europe and beyond? I think if there's one thing to point to, I would think it would be that the mystics tend to want you to make sure that if you're going to follow their example. If you're going to enter this kind of an existence, you need to be doing it because you want to go to God and not that you're trying to run away from the world. And that continues to be a concern today within the monastic world.

When folks come in and take their initial vows in monasteries and convents, you know, one of the things that is really reviewed is why you're doing this. We want to make sure that you're not running away from something, but that you're actually running to God. And I told you the story about my friend, the monastery, and we had the guy there who had been a Nazi. You know, he was running from the world, but it was also determined that he was also running to God

because he felt this need to atone and repent. And so, you know, he was an interesting case. But, I mean, that was a concern throughout the Middle Ages, and it's still a concern today for folks who lead this kind of life is the motivation. Why are you doing it? Right. And if you're, you know, I think a lot of people, especially today, right, we hear a lot today about people who just want to get away from the world.

Right. I've had enough of the world. I want to get away from the world. And so they try to do that in a variety of different ways. maybe they'll move somewhere really remote maybe they'll just start to hunker down in their own houses and become hoarders you know we lots of different flavors of this and it's one thing to do that but it's another thing to want to leave this world as the as the desert fathers did because they felt that the din of this world was getting in the way of their spiritual longing and their spiritual desire. And Roll talks about that. And it's interesting because the experiences

that he has where he says he hears music, he doubts it. He says, I don't know what's going on. I'm confused by this. As Marjorie Kemp did the same thing, she didn't want to tell anybody. Right. And he, there's one passage in the book where he actually went to somebody else and said,

essentially, you know, do you hear this too? And a person said, no, you know, I don't hear anything. And Roll realized that, that, you know, this was an experience that he alone was having. And that although he could hear it, he said, with his physical ear, somehow it was happening internally in his, in his spirit. But he swore that he heard the music. It's like the voice of your grandmother that you heard. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's, and it really feeds into his whole concern with appearance and reality, right? Is this really happening? Or is my mind playing a trick on me? It's, you know, because, and, you know, with this kind of experience oftentimes, because it's not objective, there's often no way to really answer that question. You have to go with your gut feeling. and if you are someone who is a person of faith and a believer, you're probably going to swing one way.

If you're a person who is not and who tries to rationally explain everything, you're going to swing the other way. It brings up this idea of the divine spark within the soul, whether it's a voice, whether it's something you see, whether it's something you act. Yeah. How did he interpret this concept? It tends to be different for all of these writers.

So they all experience this in a different. in a different way. I mean, Julian, who we'll talk about next week, I mean, in one scene in her book, I mean, Jesus comes down and sits on her bed as a conversation with her. You know, Role never has that. He hears music.

He feels heath. You know, Marjorie Kemp, it was more about this, this overwhelming almost like a shadow over her soul, which made her weep and made her ill because she couldn't she couldn't handle it it was so overpowering and so you know i really do

think it tends to be different with a lot of the writers um the fact that in this book roll calls it the fire of love the incendiah amoris of course and we've got that that emblematic image throughout so much of christian literature of of the heart on fire with with god's love right and that's really what role is going after here. And that's what he claims to have to have had. It's so beautiful to me. The way in which the spirit, the divine spark, creativity, all these things can reach into us and help us create outside of us. Yeah. I mean, it's part of what makes us human, right? Is our ability to be creative when it comes to things like that. It is, I mean, some would claim uniquely human the ability to create.

And some would argue that it is the divine that's being channeled through you when you create. And some people will argue with that. That you're being, the divine or a muse or something spiritual, right? something spiritual that is kind of speaking through you using you as an Emanuensis as we talked about. Yeah. He spoke quite a bit about nature and creativity too, is that one? Yeah, well, I mean, and part of that is because he is, I mean, he's living out in the woods. And so the creative impulse, I think, is really something which is,

much more accessible when you are away from the din of humanity. Now that said, I know plenty of writers and artists who live in big cities and say that they get all their energy and that's where they do their best work. But I also know a lot of artists and writers and musicians who only can work when they go away. And oftentimes we hear, especially when it comes to music, musicians and authors, right? That they really do their best work when they leave, right? I was watching, you know, when you watch Bohemian Rhapsody and hear about Queen, right? And the fact that, you know, they had to go and leave and be in just somehow somewhere.

And that's where they did their best work and composed that album. And I've got, you know, certainly lots of author friends who do that as well. I mean, you know, I was when I was in graduate school, and I think I've told do the story, George, so stop me if I'm being repetitive. I had just met my friend who's at the monastery. I probably known him at that point for about three years. And I remember I called him and I said I was, I was just completely stuck. I was working on my dissertation and the spark had gone away and I just, I was stuck. I didn't know what to do. And I was ready to just toss the whole thing. And he said, why don't you come up to the monastery and spend a couple days in the hermitage?

Okay. So on the grounds of the monastery, and it's a huge, a huge monastery, huge monastery, huge grounds. I don't know how many acres, I'm just looking it up now, are on the Spencer Monastery, but it is 2,300 acres. It's huge. but of course only part of that is buildings it's a lot of farmland a lot of woodland and i'll never forget i i pulled up to the front of the the main building and he was waiting for me and he got in my car and he said all right drive and so we drove down this long thin road out into the woods on the property and he's telling me you know turn left here turn right there

And all of a sudden he said, stop. Okay. And he had told me, he said, you know, bring your books, bring your stuff, bring some clothes for the weekend, that kind of thing. And we got out of the car and we walked through the wood probably about 100 yards, partially across this little stream. I remember there was a wooden piece of timber there that we walked across using it as a bridge. And out in the middle of nowhere there, there was a little hermitage, a little one room, little house, out in the middle of the woods.

And we went into it, no heat, no running water. Basically, it was a bed and a desk. And he said, all right, I said, you know, I'll see in a couple days. And he left me there to work and, you know, as it is a hermitage to reflect and think. can contemplate. And so, you know, it was a taste of, of leaving the world. I mean, you know, this is before cell phones, so it wouldn't have mattered. But I'm sure there's no cell service out there. There's no electricity. So, and I got to tell you, I mean, I stayed out there, I think, for two or three nights. I can't remember it was two or three. But I do remember after the second day,

you start to get a little, little loopy. Because you are. living away from everything. Now, I'm a Jew from the Bronx. We don't camp. I mean, you know, we tried it thousands of years ago in the desert. It sucked. We're not doing it again. And so, you know, this was something which was not familiar to me. And it was an interesting experience. And it was in many ways a kind of a little taste of what that life is like. It's very different from, what we experience day to day out quote unquote in the world and it shows you how incredibly difficult it is to live in this world and engage in that kind of intellectual spiritual creative activity because there's just so much noise and being out in the hermitage for a couple of days

There's no noise out there. I mean, it is dead quiet. And so, you know, as a result, you know, it made me think of when I lived in South Dakota, I knew a Lakota medicine man who invited me to come and do the sweat lodge. I did the sweat lodge twice out there on the res. And it's a similar kind of thing. It has a physical and a psychological effect on you. That solitude and that physical.

I don't know what the right word is physical. It's strenuous. And it sounds silly to say it's strenuous to just be by yourself in a one little room for a couple of days. But it was, especially for somebody like me who's such an extrovert. Nobody to talk to. You don't see anybody. And, you know, the sweat lodge was a similar kind of experience. that one very effective.

Have you ever done a sweat lodge, George? No, but I spent some time in isolation tanks. Oh, did that two years ago, yeah. It's somewhat similar. It's somewhat similar, although the extreme heat and the way that your body really does purge itself of all of its impurities, because you're just sweating like you can't believe it has a particular kind of effect on you

so it's a kind of interaction of the physical and the and the intellectual whereas the the isolation tank for me at least it was more of an intellectual experience than a physical one it was psychological you know and i know that the couple of inches of the salty water is supposed to make all the difference in those tanks i hadn't think that any difference to me but i don't know maybe it had that different experience for you. I've spent some time when I was younger as a wrestler and not that it's a sweat lodge,

but depriving myself of food, going into sanas. And there's a certain sort of clarity. The cleansing of the doors of perception, maybe. You know, that comes with diet and sweating and heightened states of awareness. Yeah.

No, I mean, And that's what all the ascetic practices of the religious life are all about, right? Denying the body. And in that case, to edify the soul so that you can have a more pure experience. But, I mean, people talk about that all the time. I mean, I know when I've done, I mean, I'm a carbohydrate addict. I would have made a terrible wrestler because I cannot not eat carbs. And carbs are the worst thing for a wrestler.

And so, you know, there have been times. I've gone on these carb diets where I don't, where I cut out carbs completely. Well, for the first two weeks, you're the biggest SOB going because you're going through withdrawal. But after that, you do feel a different sense of clarity, just mental clarity, and a clearer state of mind. It's just, you know, as is the case with the spiritual life, it's difficult to maintain that. you know and eventually you know you eat a bowl of pasta and you're screwed which is what happens to me usually

yeah you know that there's a really good author young young chulhan and he speaks he's got a bunch of cool books that speak to this idea of um the

like the pornographic nature of the uninterrupted message. And that's what seems to happen in the cities or the worlds we live in. It's just constant bombardment. It is. I mean, you know, there's a guy who years ago referred to as data smog. Yeah. Right. And it's just a great way to think about it. David Shanks was his name. We wrote a book called Data Smog back in the kind of must have been in the 90s. And this just this idea that we are, you know, it reminds me of of the robot in short circuit, right? Who is always saying input, more input.

That's where we're constantly processing. And it's, you know, we're seeing slowly through psychological studies that, you know, that's not a good, good way to operate. It just doesn't, you know, I taught my first class of the semester last night. And, you know, we were talking about the fact that the course has a lot of reading. And that is going to require that you take time and sit and actually reading a book. And, you know, most people these days are just, that's an activity that's foreign to them. They don't read sustainably.

You know, they read as long as it takes to read something on a phone, usually. And here I'm asking them to read, you know, 40 chapters in the Bible in, you know, for one night. and it's just, you know, how are they going to do that? And so it'll be interesting to see how they handle it. Every year it's interesting to see how they approach it. You know, I've been doing some research on the evolution of language. And it seems to me that we have really transformed our world. And you can see it in the use of organic metaphors that we used to use,

and that of the mechanistic metaphors that we use now. Yeah. You really charted. Yeah, I mean, as we've moved from, you know, what I refer to as an analog world to a digital world, right? And there's a good deal to be lost as a result of that. You know, I was talking earlier with a friend of mine who's a librarian, and we were talking about the days when you would use all books in a reference room

in the library. Well, I mean, those are all gone now because everything's online. I mean, a lot of libraries don't even have a reference room anymore. They, you know, the books aren't up to date, whereas the things they can get online are more up to date. And so they just don't use them anymore. And it was funny because we were on the phone and I was looking up something actually for our talk today. And I wanted to read the entry in the Dictionary of National Biography on Richard role. And so I went on to our, I was talking to my friend and I went on to our library catalog, assuming that we must have had an electronic subscription to the dictionary of national biography. It's a fairly standard reference work. And we don't. We actually still have the paper copy.

It's old, but we have the paper copy somewhere in the library. And it was so funny because I was talking to my friend and I said, how is it that we possibly don't have this online? And she said, you're probably the only person who even knows about that thing. Because people don't use those kinds of reference books anymore. Everything is through Google. And so, you know, it's also just part and parcel of the instant gratification that we have, right? The society that we have that demands that. You know, we were talking about the fact that if you're sitting around talking about some movie

and you're thinking about an actor but you can't remember their name, just whip out the phone and you'll hold it. have it in two seconds, you know, and oftentimes I'll be sitting with friends and we'll be doing that and I'll say, all right, wait a minute. Let's not just immediately look it up on our phones. Let's see if we can, you know, let it percolate for a minute. It's in there. You just can't remember it right now. See if you can, you know, and it's a memory exercise. And we don't, we don't really do that anymore. Yeah, when you don't use a muscle at at atrophies. Yeah, absolutely. And memory is one of the things that, you know, is really,

really we're losing it. And on the one level, it's okay because, you know, as we've talked about before, the idea of the internet being kind of an extension of our memory. But the problem with it for me is, as I've often said, we're not doing anything with what it's freeing up. You know, it's freeing up our minds for what we hoped was going to be higher level thinking. And most people aren't engaging in that. You are. You are on this podcast. though. That's why I'm happy you're here. Yeah, vice versa. You know, there's this interesting

idea that I see popping up from time to time. This idea of rewilding and you can see it in nature. And sometimes I think we're beginning to see it in spirituality. When I read your book, The Seven Deadly Sin, or we have these conversations about mystics, from time to time,

I will hear people that I talk to have this spark of creation. And it seems to me it's a lot like that spark of divinity. I feel like maybe sometimes you have to lose everything in order to be wild. Maybe I'm hopeful that's what we're going to see in this. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to put it. And I think what happens is for a lot of people that spark is trying to fight its way through.

Yeah. Right. Yes. And part of what folks like Richard Roel were talking about in the 14th century was readying yourself for that experience. And, you know, unfortunately for a lot of people today, they don't ready themselves for the experience. And then when it comes, they either squelch it or dismiss it. Right? They don't take advantage of it. So, you know, I mean, it sounds cliche, but, you know, I've always got a pad.

next to me, you know, especially when I sleep. Because you wake up with these ideas and you want to write them down, you don't want to forget them. And oftentimes those little sparks of things that come to you. They really are. I was writing something the other day and I was driving in the car and thinking about the piece because I was a little stuck with it and I don't like to where it's at.

And I was thinking about a different approach to talking about what I was trying to say. and I came up with these three words that worked perfectly. And so, you know, here I am in the car. And, you know, you certainly don't want to write anything down. But I didn't want to lose it because it is, it did come as a kind of a spark. And so, you know, as soon as I got to, I was driving to the office. As soon as I got here, I wrote it down because I didn't want to forget it. It's so, I love to hear those stories.

for me, it's usually in the bathroom at like three in the morning. Yeah. Well, most people, you know, and I tell us to my students, I mean, most people, the only time that we get to spend really alone is when you're in the shower. Yeah. You know, unless you're lucky enough to be in there with somebody else, that's the only time that we spend by ourselves. So oftentimes people will say, you know, I got this idea in the shower. It's like, well, yeah, because you were by yourself. you know, there was nothing else to do.

And so the thought came to you. And, you know, maybe we need to take more showers as a culture. I don't know. I don't know if it's magic or tragic. That's the only time we're alone. I think it's tragic, to be honest. You know, and by alone, you know, that we have to go to that extreme to be alone, right? To get naked and be in the shower by your.

is the only way that you can be alone. And I mean, you know, we hear people complain, talk about this. You know, mothers have liked to talk about this for years, right? When you have a newborn, it's like the only time I get for myself is when I'm in the bathroom. You know, it's sad that that's what it's come to. Is that, and I think a lot of it goes back to what you were talking about with just this, this incredible noise. And the data smog that we have is it's really hard. I mean, you can't go anywhere these days and sit and wait for something without seeing people just down the line on their phones.

Nobody's able to just sit. You go to a doctor's office and go and look in the waiting room, right? People are sitting there. They're on their phones. You know, I'm here at a university, right? The students are on their phones. It seems 24-7. It's just an extension of their.

of their physical of their physical beings now. And it's really, I don't know, it strikes me as sad. I mean, I mean, I used to walk around on college campus when I was in college. And, you know, the most I had was what I remember when the Sony Walkman came out. And that was like revolutionary.

You could be able to walk around and listen to music, right? We didn't even have that before then. And so, you know, know, the idea now that you can't even just go walk across campus and be, quote, unquote, alone with your thoughts. You know, people are on their phones, either looking at stuff or or talking to somebody. And, you know, it's, it's an interesting thing. It is. Elaine says here, I love the idea of rewilding myself.

Maybe this is why I find going down the veg pad. And getting my hands in the earth is so healing. Getting away from technology is very healing and quieting. You know. Yeah, that's really, I mean, and I think that's why a lot of people really do love things like gardening, right, is literally getting back to the earth. Yeah. Right. And really, you know, understanding that.

I mean, you know, they say that the only way that you really understand anything about what you eat is if you wear your own food and understand. where it comes from right we're constantly told that when you sit down to eat something you should think about right where it came from how it got to your to your table and to trace it back and so you know the you know I like what Elaine is saying there and I I wonder if that Elaine Mason is the same Elaine Mason that I know but I don't know she'll text me and let me know but you know the idea that you can grow your own food is so satisfying for a lot of people to be able to eat something that came out of your own garden you know and I do like that you know again that idea of rewilding

myself it's kind of getting us back to to a place where we were what's that line from the the Crosby still Nash thought for the Johnny Mitchell Woodstock got to get back back to the garden, right? You know, it, and you know, she's talking about the garden of Eden, but nevertheless, you know, getting back to the garden. I think there's a strange parallel here. The fact that to be naked and alone in your bathroom with your thoughts, you have to probably go through four locked doors. door. Your front door, your hallway door, your bedroom door, your bathroom door, and then the sliding shower door. What does that say about that?

Like, you have to be that secure in order to be a loan. Well, because there is some vulnerability there, right? I mean, being alone makes you vulnerable. That's why we've always said there's safety in numbers, right? you know so there is a vulnerability which also is one of the reasons people shun away from it because it's scary you know it's frightening to be alone with your thoughts for some people and and and i appreciate that i can understand that i mean i've been through that myself periods of time when i experienced you know extreme anxiety and the last thing i want to do is be alone with myself but with my own thoughts

but you know it's it's a leap of faith i think that's required to do that to make yourself vulnerable you know it's the whole the trust exercises a bit yeah right to trust other people and to know i mean you know i i sit here in the office sometimes and if i want to be alone alone as you say i've got to close the door. And it's not necessarily because I need it to be quieter. It's not much quieter when I close the door. It's not a lot of noise here. My office is in the library. But it's more about the vulnerability of being alone here and somebody may walk in. And somebody may interrupt me. And you know, you don't want that. So I mean, there are times when I'll say to my administrative assistant, you know, I just need to close the door for a little bit. And I'll just, you know,

sit down in the chair and just, just sit there. Just to sit for a little while. And it's a form of meditation, I guess. But, you know, it's a, it's a way of being alone with my thoughts, which, you know, again, does make you vulnerable. And think about it from the point of view of, an instance like ritual role hat. If so many of us are afraid to be alone with our thoughts,

what does it feel like to be alone with the strange music? Yeah. Yeah. It has to be terrifying. It has to be terrifying. And a lot of the mystics do feel that sense when they have these experiences.

I mean, the first thing they do is doubt it's feracity. Right. And think, Maybe it's the devil trying to tease me and to tempt me. Oh, it is her. And she has an excess of zucchini. Yeah, yeah.

Hi, Elaine. Elena's in Wales. Elena is one of our oldest friends in Swansea Wales. So Borda, Elaine. And it's, and I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry. That's okay. The frightening feeling of the music.

Yeah, I mean, it's scary because as human beings, we try to explain it away. And our first impulse is like, I'm crazy. I'm going crazy. And so, you know, to be comfortable with the idea that it's, that's not what it is, but all of the mystics experience that. Marjorie Kemp did. It's why she didn't want to tell anybody about what happened. Role is kind of sensitive about sharing what he's gone through because, you know, it's very personal and he doesn't think anybody's going to understand it because he can't really explain what it's like right that's the other part of it when we talked about that with

the cloud of unknowing by the ineffable nature of all of this right right you have this kind of divine experience and i mean it how do you put that into human words right it's why we have so few accounts of this um these experiences and and you know again if you read we'd Richard Roll or go to Thomas Merton and, you know, seven-story mountain, read him and or read the works of the Buddhist monks, you know, who talk about their experiences is always a struggle to put this into human language. I always fall back on Iliad and think about the terror before the sacred. Yeah. That's just a great way to describe that experience. Like, oh, it's so beautiful.

What do I do with this? Yeah. Well, it's, as we said before, it's awful. right. You're full of awe. Yeah. Right. Yep. Well, Dave, we're coming up on our hour right here. Yes, sir. I love it. I have to put a dollar in my um jar now because I just said that.

Dang it's my daughter's going to crush me. Okay. Such a great time. I'm so thankful. Perhaps you could tell people a little bit where they can find you what you have coming up and what you're excited. Sure. So my website is David A. Solomon, S-A-O-M-O-M-N. com links to all of my books and the blog, which I'm getting back to writing again, and appearances and my consulting. Excited with beginning a new academic year on campus. Classes began on Monday.

And so the students are back, which is always a different kind of energy, which I certainly appreciate and excited about the year ahead and as well as my own teaching. I'm teaching an honors class this semester that I'm also looking forward to. Well, that's what we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. We will be back soon, I'm sure. Thanks for everybody for hanging out. And if you hear a strange echo, try to think of it as a divine voice. Exactly.

Aloha.