TrueLife - Dr. David Salomon - Mysticism, Mystics, & Metaphors # 2

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Today we continue our journey into the mystic tradition with an incredible individual Dr. David Salomon. Mysticism is popularly known as any kind of ecstasy or altered states of consciousness which is given a religious or spiritual meaning, but may refer to becoming one with God or the Absolute. It also refers to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths, and to human transformation supported by various practices and experiences.http://www.davidasalomon.com/https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.com/https://www.abc-clio.com/ABC-CLIOCorporate/product.aspx?pc=A5537Chttps://www.amazon.com/Seven-Deadly-Sins-Influenced-Middle/dp/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Welcome back to the True Life podcast. We are here with the one and only David Solomon, the author of multiple books and potentially a new one coming out with someone who, whom he loves very much. And today we're talking about mysticism, mystics, and metaphors. Last week, we talked quite a bit about the idea of mysticism.

And I thought maybe today we would begin our journey on what it is the mystic is feeling. What it is the mystic is almost being inflicted by or what they're searching for. But I did want to start out with a really cool definition about mysticism. and this is from Roger Goldleather. Mysticism, as a word used broadly to describe a variety of at times overwhelming, often life-defining experiences, encounters that give rise to fundamental shifts in how we sense the nature of both the universe

and our own personal identity. And I thought that was a good jump off. Like, do you think that this idea of the mystic being being brought into a relationship with God. Is that the nature of both the universe and our own personal identity? Is that what's happening there? What do you think is happening there when they come into contact? Well, I think the nature of it has somewhat shifted.

You know, certainly for the medieval mystics that we know so well, their goal is union with the divine. But I think for the modern mind, the whole concept of what the divine is has changed so significantly that it can really come to represent a great variety of things. I mean, you know, if you're reading, you know, my favorite Carl Jung, I mean, it's about finding the self, right, and understanding the self. And that's really, so it, in many ways, is more of an inward journey than an external one,

is I think the medieval mystics, the focus really is on the external because it's looking to God. I mean, all you have to is look at medieval art and look at the depictions of these kinds of things. Today, ironically, is the date that Francis of Assisi apparently had his vision and received the stigmata from Jesus. And so if you look at the art depicting that event, I mean, it's all about an external relationship with, with God, whereas I think today more and more we see it being about a look inward. Yeah, that's fascinating to think about. It brings me to this idea of, it seems that most people have this dualistic idea of themselves or there's this dualistic nature we have.

But it seems to me the mystics are like, or I think you said it in the previous sentence, is they see this oneness, this wholeness. Is that something that kind of runs through the idea of mysticism? Well, I think, I mean, the mystics are constantly dealing with the mind-body problem. It's a constant. And we see that going all the way back to, I mean, Philo of Alexandria and the the pre-Judeic Greeks who are writing about this. It's really kind of astonishing that we, and we were talking about this last week, I mean, the line from Carl Young about it being sort of, you know, ridiculous to think that there's nothing more than the physical.

And so there's always been, I think, this conflict between mind and body between the spiritual and the physical. And that seems to really permeate just about every spiritual tradition that you come across. regardless of where it is on the globe. I mean, I've been reading recently, or rereading, Mercia Elliott's little book, Images and Symbols. And I mean, he's talking about, you know, religions that run the gamut from traditional, so-called traditional, you know, Roman Catholicism

to religions of the pygmies in African jungles. And the ways that there are so many similarities, of course what what young would call archetypal connections but really underlying so much of that is this ongoing conflict that we have because intellectually I think many of us and many of us who think along these lines think about our spiritual nature and not our physical one and in many ways look at the physical nature is getting in the way of the spiritual. It's in some way it's it's a it's an obstacle that has to be dealt with and we see that in in the writings of a lot of the mystics who write about the the problems that they have with sin that those are physical desires and and yearnings

that they would much rather dispel but they can't because we're physical beings. That's the nature of who we are. So there's so much right there that makes me think there seems to be a pattern in the majority of mystics that I have read and the ideas of mysticism. And it's this idea of suffering. And if you, I was reading a little bit about Simone Vei and she talked about how suffering was almost when she was closest to God. And it's almost like God dwells within you or this being or whatever it is you want to call this in. counter is manifesting itself in you when you're suffering.

And if you look at those that suffered, like Francis of Assisi, even when they're suffering and they're in pain, they're not really, like they're still evangelizing. They're still going out and doing the work. And I wonder if it's that conflict that you had brought up about the body and the mind that causes that suffering. And somehow this power, you're trying to overcome it that causes that suffering. Yeah. I mean, it almost seems to me that with some of the writers,

the infliction of physical suffering is there in order to edify the spiritual nature of their being. So if you look at somebody like, oh, we mentioned Marjorie Kemp last week, you know, who experienced incredible physical suffering and just went through awful pain. but it it seems like the experience of that almost allowed her her spiritual nature to be more freed up to commune with the divine to have that you know we we mentioned the word ecstasy and exoscy being a you know separation of body out of body and um i think that's the goal and and so the you know we we look at a set of right ascetic traditions which is basically to punish the physical body in order to edify the soul and that's very similar to what you're talking about is experiencing that suffering i mean if you're going to walk around all day with a hair shirt on in hopes that it's going to bring you closer to god but i mean a lot of a lot of medieval monks a lot of early christians

certainly did that um i'm sure there are still people today who wear hair shirts i don't know any personally, but I'm sure they exist. This brings up a really fascinating point I want to get into because I think, like previously we had said that while these people are suffering, at times they don't, they're still able to go on with their work. But think about what that does for the people around them that look at them. They go, wow, look at this person in so much pain and suffering and they're continuing to work on.

It's almost like though, even though they're afflicted with this tragedy, it is a gift because it allows people. to see them in a way that gives them strength. It reminds me of like two Corinthians where they say, I was born with a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me. I've asked the Lord to take it away from me. And in his infinite wisdom,

I heard his voice say to me, my grace is sufficient for you. For in weakness, my power is made perfect. And it seems to me, like that's what you're doing is you're setting an example. And that might be how you get to sainthood or become a mystic, is that you deal.

with this infliction, but by dealing with it, you're preaching a message that may not be in words, but is communicated to those around you. Yeah, but there's also a danger there, isn't there, of pride and of sort of being being accused in modern parlance of being a martyr, right? It's like, it's like the person who comes to work regardless of how sick they are. Oh, isn't that wonderful? You know, no, it's terrible. I mean, you know, we're actually now encouraging people.

We're saying, if you're six, stay home for God's sakes. But I was just reading something this morning in Time magazine last week that was talking about this very issue of the different ways that we perceive work and what we do. And the article was about the trend that are called quiet quitting. People are basically saying, you know, I'm not going to work on the weekends. I'm not going to work, you know, 90 hours a week. I'm going to do my job, and then I'm going to go home and live my life.

And, of course, in our culture, we have tended to reward the overachiever, right? The type A is who just work, work, work, work, and it's not necessarily a positive thing. So I do think there's a danger there for, the individual who is being looked at as the example because in most cases those people would be the same exact ones who would engage in extreme humility and and downplay any special nature of of of of their selves I mean that's what that's what the mystics did in the middle ages I mean you know a lot of them refused to even record their their visions and only did so reluctantly eventually now part of that may have been because they were worried about being stigmatized and being accused of being you know crazy which is which is was not uncommon and of course the treatment for that in the Middle Ages was was just horrible and was ghastly

essentially that to drill a hole in your head to let the demons out because the concern was your soul, not your physical being. So if you died, oh, well, but we saved your soul. Yeah. But I think that in today's world, and what a horrible phrase that is, my students will start essays with that and you say, what does that mean? But in the world in which we live in, I think there's a real issue with that. I mean, I personally have been struggling with a horrible headache for the last week and a half.

I can't shake it. I don't know what's going on. I don't know where it's coming from. It's just, it's been persistent. And I have worked every day. And a lot of my colleagues say, why don't you stay home? You know, and I guess I don't know why I don't stay home. I mean, it's not that I think that I'm not special that I have to be at work.

part of it is just because I know if I stay at home, I'm just going to, what am I going to do at home? That's not going to help, and it's not like I'm necessarily going to get better by doing that. But so that's a roundabout way of getting at people who are experiencing that kind of extreme suffering can certainly be viewed by others with a very positive,

perspective, but I just, I would worry about the dangers of that. I mean, you know, the whole ascetic movement, I mean, the church stopped that in the 15th century by finally officially saying, you know, stop hitting yourself. I mean, people were, you know, self-flagellation. And the whole idea was, well, you know, my body will suffer, my spirit will be edified and we become closer to God. And finally, the Catholic Church said, no, that can't be. Your body was created by God, too.

It can't be evil. And that was the attitude. The body's evil. The spirit is good. And so I'll punish the body. But that can't be. But nonetheless, we have such strange relationships between our physical and our spiritual slash intellectual selves that,

that it's it's oftentimes difficult to explain. I mean, I've been joking in the last 24 hours after two doctor's appointments yesterday, that at 58, my warranties are starting to expire and they're calling in my parts, you know? And you do sort of start to have this relationship with your physical self that is a battle, or is at least antagonistic that the mind and the body don't necessarily get along well. I think for some people are able to do that. And I respect that they can if they're, if they're,

they find that balance. I think for most of us, we don't. Yeah, I think it's, it's always moving like, you know, it's so hard to find balance.

It's always moving this way or it's moving, it's like a pendulum and it's swinging back and forth. It brings to mind, it brings to mind the idea of how some people can find themselves in tragedy, like say the loss of a loved one. And while they end up in a dark hole, they then come out of that hole and something there grows and they become stronger or better. And then other people go, wow, this person or I had a friend that's recently had a heart attack and he's making his way.

And I can see that in a way he's been reborn because he has this new lease on life. Yeah. But, you know, that doesn't mean that people should go out and try to get a heart attack so they can have a new lease on life. Right. But it's so difficult to transmit that lesson because everybody sees what happens and they see the repercussions of that event or, the winnings or the things that may be good that come from that event as like, wow, well, if this thing just happened to me, then I can do it. I think you're getting the wrong message, and I could see how that would happen like that. Well, I mean, and it makes me think of when I have in the past taught about the problem of evil, right? And for the, and I mean, the problem of evil,

put simply is that if God is all-powerful, omnipotent, all-knowing, omniscient, and benevolent, wanting good for his creation, why would evil exist? It doesn't seem to make any sense.

And so, you know, you present these difficult philosophical quandaries where you say, you know, well, a tree fell on my house yesterday and and so if someone says well that was God's will you know that doesn't make you feel any better necessarily and so I think part of it is just the I mean it comes back to what we talked about so long ago about this it's the objective subjective thing right yeah it's how we perceive

things um I mean you know I was watching yesterday the queen lying in repose and in Scotland and everyone was making such a big deal about how her children stood around the coffin. I don't know if you saw that picture. It was a very, it was a very affecting picture of the four of them standing there the way that they were honoring their, their mother. But we don't know what people are thinking and how they're feeling. it's, it's, you know, I mean, you're, your friend with the heart attack, it's, it's, we don't know what he's feeling, right? And, and I mean, even if he tells you what he's feeling, it's not the whole story, right? Maybe he is feeling a new lease on life. Maybe not. Maybe it's just a scare. You know, it, it, we're just, we're such confusing animals, aren't we? we really are you know what it reminds me of i forgot where this particular little story or limerick came from but it's it's something along the lines of there's a small village back in the medieval

times and there's a young family there and they're working and all of a sudden a team of horses just comes from the because comes from nowhere and it rides into this guy's farm and the neighbors like, oh gosh, you're so lucky. You have all these horses now. You're like a rich man. And the guy's like, yeah, maybe. And then the son's out trying to break the horses and he falls and he breaks his leg and he might die. And they're, oh, no, it's so horrible. You know, I can't believe this bad luck happened to you. And he's like, maybe. Then the next day, the military comes in and they take all the young men who are fighting age to go fight for the war. And they're like, oh, you're so lucky. Your son didn't have to go. And he's like, maybe. You know, it's just this idea of, I think it boils down to this.

And this is what I have found in my life is that in life you cannot control what happens to you, but you and you alone get to control the meaning of that event. And there's real power in there because now you have the opportunity to see God's grace or you got the ability to see that the divine spark resides within you. And you can choose the meaning of that event. Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it is all about how you interpret what goes on.

And, you know, I mean, it's Hamlet who says it's neither good or bad, but thinking makes it so, right? I mean, it's, nothing is good or bad, objectively, he says. It's how we look at it. It's how we think about it. And, you know, again, going back to the problem of evil, you know, I mean, the earthquake in Lisbon, Lisbon, Portugal in 1759, which was a huge, huge event and was a turning point in the discussions about the problem of evil in the history of Western philosophy. A lot of people looked at that and said, well, that was God's punishment for a decadent society.

So he wiped them out by, you know, an earthquake. And it's a question of obviously faith on what you believe. But it's also, as you say, it's sort of what your perspective is on it. And I love that, you know, maybe story. That's a great a great story because it is true. I mean, we don't necessarily control our own fate in every aspect because so much of what goes on on a daily basis involves interacting with the world around us. And we don't control that. But we can, as you say, control how we were.

respond to it and how we view it and how we interpret it. And, you know, that brings us back to looking at things symbolically and thinking, you know, what is it? You know, one man's trash is another man's treasure, right? You know, it's all how you look at it. Now, you know, on one level, that sounds like a cop out. And it's it, because it's, it just is an easy way out because a rational mind wants to make sense of something and come up with a definitive answer, but there may not necessarily be one.

And we are uncomfortable with that fact that we can't explain everything. And I think that's what causes us to continue to pursue the search. Yeah, I agree. And in some ways, the way of thinking about that, you know, I often think of a, was it was an act four scene for a tale of sound and fury completely devoid of any meaning you know like think about like when when you get into a situation that may be a tragedy some people get stuck there and then they so flagellate like oh god i'm so dumb i can't believe i do you know what and then that just ruins their whole relationship with those they love because they're ruining that relationship with

themselves and i think that on some level that might be one thing that we can learn from the mystics if we take it into the world in which we live today, in that event, if you look at a tragic event, an event that you had no control over, then you know, you can use, if you can see that as a mysticism or or take from the mystics the idea that, okay, it's back to this oneness. Now I can decide what that event is. I think you can, I think there's a correlation there maybe. Yeah.

And I think that, you know, you're right. I mean, tragic events when they occur, again, it's about how we respond to them and how we, how we, how or if we move forward from that, right? I mean, it's very easy to just go down the rabbit hole and not be able and not come out then, right? I mean, you just get mired in the tragedy. And I think some of this has to do with, and I'm not a PhD, psychology. Some of this has to do with certainly the nature of our narcissistic temperament and, and again, the lack of an ability to be objective. I mean, we all know people who are just so stuck in their own world that they can't see anything else. And gosh, those people are

frustrating, aren't they? You know, and you just want to try to, but something I would argue that something triggered that. Something led them to that that point. And if you could go back and trace

that to find out, you know, what was the event, the original incident that caused them to become unable to view things, and from any other perspective other than from their own self-centeredness. It would be very, very interesting.

And I think that it is increasingly a quality of our time, that people are led to that kind of subjective narcissism. And I know it's easy to use those as a crutch, but technology is doing a lot of it. I mean, I'm around, you know, 18, 19, 20-year-old kids every day here at university. I've been doing this for a long time. And the way that they interact with their phones, and then to watch the way that they badly interact with other human beings,

it's really startling. Now, COVID made it worse, much worse. And it's going to be a while before we can start to get out of this. But I'm just, I find it curious that I will walk into a room, a classroom, and there were 30 students sitting there before a class, and nobody's talking to each other. They were all on their phones. I mean, literally, no one's talking to each other.

And it's like, what? what's going on here? What is happening to us? You know, it's the fear that we're going to become robots. Well, you know, we may already be there in some ways. And as I've written about in my work, I mean, I think so much of this comes down to discussions about what makes us human beings, what makes us human.

And whether that's, you know, an acknowledgement and understanding of sin, or understanding a journey of the self, any of these things. It's about what is it that makes us human? And when you look at that, and then you look at the world around us, the way that it is developing, I'm quite honestly, I'm worried. I'm really worried.

I mean, it just, and at a really silly level, I mean, on something. You know, you walk into a supermarket, and there were fewer and fewer cashiers, everything is self-checkout. You're like, oh, well, that's great, blah, blah, blah. Okay, well, number one, what happened to the people who had those jobs? Number two, it now means that you no longer have to interact with other human beings. And a lot of people, when I say that, will say, yeah, good, I don't want to.

And it's like, really? I don't know what that's going to do to you as a human being. I love that the cat's behind you joining us you know it just it will I think that that's just going to make us less human and take away

aspects of our humanity and that just to me is is really frightening I agree I think it was Marshall McLuhan who wrote about this in the in the 50s or 60s when he talked about hot and cold mediums he he's supposed

about digital feudalism. And, you know, when I was a kid going to school, the teacher had to come and be like, everybody settled down. Hey, stop talking. Knock it off. Like, that wasn't the battle, you know? Now it's, it's everybody off their phones. Yeah.

It's, you know what? It brings us back to Ailiad where he says it's the felt presence of the other that reflects your humanity. Like, there's things that you would never say to someone when you're face to face versus being in a forum or, you know, in a chat room or even on a Skype call. Like there's no consequences for your actions when you're this far away. And even though we have the appearance of connection, we don't have the human connection. And that's it's the illusion of connection.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's, you know, Sherry Turkle's done some great work on this. One of her more recent books is called Alone Together. And it's about how we're alone together, right? I mean, I'm sitting here alone in my office with the door closed, but I'm together with you here online. Now, is that together? You know, it is to some degree, but I think you're right. It just, it, it just, it, it changes the dynamic of who we are as human beings.

And I think it has contributed to a more and more divisive society and a society that is increasingly more angry. and violent and we see people settling things in in violent and angry ways rather than than having discussions because maybe they just don't know how and that is the only way that they know how to solve a problem is is through through violence and we see it a lot in the big cities right not even in the big cities um we've got a gun violence problem in the area where i live here in virginia Um, every day, it seems like on the news, it's another, there's another shooting. Um, and it's just, what is going on? This is the way that people are learning to deal with each other. I think it's, now that you say that, I've often thought that violence and, and anger are

a reaction to loneliness. And that would make sense if we are so disconnected. Like, you're, it's your soul longing to be connected with something like itself to say, see itself in the other or to at least feel, feel the gaze upon you or hear the words bounce off of you or look into the eyes of someone you may have a relationship with if you can say the right thing, you know, like all of that magic, all of that potential. And I think it brings to the forefront the idea. The solution is that maybe we're not individuals, maybe we're one organism. And when we're separated from other parts of ourselves, it's like the right hand, literally

not knowing what the left hand is doing. So how can you make any sense of that? No, I think that's a really interesting idea of us being one organism. And I mean, you see a lot of that through a lot of the writing that we're talking about. I mean, from the Middle Ages right up till now, this, you know, it reminds me of the theories of Adam and Eve having originally been one being, right, and that they were split into male and female and are always looking to reunite to reform the whole. I find that a really interesting idea in the Genesis text and the Genesis commentary about them. But I, you know, it just, I think I sent you this at a text one day and you and you answered me. There's a great line from, from D.H. Lawrence is an essay that he wrote that's

called We Need One Another. And it just, that's really just, that's really just, what it comes down to we need one another we really do you you you can't i don't think live alone without any contact with other human beings and survive now granted there are some tribes that that that that do it they don't have contact with the outside world but they still have contact with each other um i mean there was the story recently of that that man in the the tribe in South America, I believe. I think I got the story sitting here on my desk somewhere. Just a couple of weeks ago who died, who is the last surviving member of this tribe.

And he has died. He had no name. And they say he lived in a hole most of his life. But, I mean, I don't know. It's just that connection between the human-to-human connection, whether that's, whether that that's a physical connection or a spiritual connection here we are with the mind-body again I think we need both right I mean you know I would love to see you in person and go out and and you know have a drink and sit and talk and actually be close together in the same space

but I feel nonetheless that we have a connection because we have an intellectual and a spiritual connection without that physical connection. Can you have one without the other? I don't know. And I don't know what that means about changing the nature of us as humans. I think we share a, we have a shared experience in that the love for reading and the love for some of these ideas about spirituality. And I think that those can be things that bring people together.

I can only imagine our connection would be even deeper had we sit down and we were having these meetings one-on-one. I think that there's a lot more information that would exchange, even if it was just, you know, the physical eye contact or the laughing together or the wiping of tears when things got sad, you know, or that was a great idea. Just that exchange of pheromones maybe. But I think that there's something to be said. And that in itself is an experience. I think that a poor substitute for that shared experience can be the shared experience of reading together or listening to a story together or interpreting something together. Because at least then you're of one mind or working as one together. Yeah.

In the last couple of days, I found out that one of my mentors when I was in graduate school had had. passed. John O'Malley, who was a Jesuit scholar, Jesuit priest, died at 95. I haven't been in touch with him in many years, but he was incredibly important to me when I was working on my doctoral dissertation because he was just such a generous human being. It was just, and it's funny because in all the obituaries, that's all that keeps being mentioned is about how generous he was. And he was. He didn't start his own scholarship until he was in his early 60s. And he ended up writing some of the more important books on the early Jesuits. And he invited me to come up to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he was,

and granted me library privileges to the library so I could work in there. And he would answer my emails and my regular mail when I had probably what were really silly questions. but he was always willing to respond. And there was a connection there that I wouldn't give away. I mean, it was really important. I mean, you know, but nonetheless, if I had seen him today, he probably wouldn't remember me. But that doesn't bother me necessarily because his, you know,

I tell students this story. and forgive me for this sort of peripheral journey. But when I started college, I was at Fordham University in the Bronx. One of the few Jews at a Catholic university was quite interesting. And I had a priest for a Western Civ class, Father Sweeney. Father Sweeney was tough as nails. Oh, my God, this guy was tough. And, I mean, he was old school the whole way.

And the class met Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, 8 o'clock in the morning. And he used to come in. I sat in the front row. He used to come in and he would lecture. And he wore a collar. And he had at the time, this is 1981, he had bought or somebody had gotten him a pocket calculator that had an alarm in it. And so he had the alarm set for 10 minutes to the. hour because that's when class ended. And if he was mid-sentence and that alarm went off,

he stopped because that was the end of class. And I sat in the front row so I would hear it because it was right in his pocket. So it was interesting. I worked really hard in that class. And at one point, he had realized that everybody wasn't doing the reading. We were freshmen. And he said, if you're not going to do the reading, we're going to have to quiz every class. and he let it go for about two or three more classes, and then he realized people weren't doing the reading. And we had a quiz every class at the beginning of class for the rest of the semester. And when I think about that now, think back on that,

yeah, it was a pain on the neck for us as students. But then I think about it from the other side of the desk now. He had to grade those every class. So I wrote a paper on Cardinal Richelieu. I still remember this. And I worked really hard on this paper. and I submitted it and I got it back from him and I think I got a B. And I was disappointed.

So I went in to go see him during his office hour and I can remember sitting in his office with him and he went over that paper with me with a fine tooth comb. He explained every comma mistake that I had made and what it was and just, I mean, it was just, it was meticulous. And I remember at the end, he paused and he said to me, he says, you thought it was a better paper. And I said, well, yeah. He said, you thought it deserved an A. And I said, well, yeah. He said, A means perfect. A means I have nothing else to say. Okay. So I write my final paper. I submit it. We go in for the final exam, which he has told us already,

we would never be able to finish in the time given. So as soon as we sit down, we have to start writing in the blue books. I don't know. They still use blue books. So we did that. We went in, sat down, he gave us the exam. We all started writing. And as I was writing, he was walking around the room handing back the final papers. And I remember he came to my desk and he lifted the corner of the blue book and slid the paper underneath. And I'm writing, writing, writing. And the curiosity got the best of me. And for a second, I just stopped and I picked my blue book up to see. and all that was written on the paper was a red letter A in a circle, and there wasn't a word.

Because to him, A meant perfect. A means I have nothing else to say. And that was 41 years ago, and I have embraced that as being a part of my own teaching. A means perfect. A means I have nothing else to say, so much so that over the years, I now have these pins, these A pins, he gets a solid A on a paper, which is rare, they get a pin. And I tell this story. And then, of course, it becomes everybody wants a pin. But it is rare. It does not happen.

Now, the connection that I had with him was incredibly important. And I was so sorry that I never kept in touch with him. I tried to get a hold of him years later after he had retired. he'd become ill. He was living in the Jesuit housing at Fordham. I reached out. I never heard. And then a couple of years later, I've had to reach out again.

And he had passed. But I always remembered there was a great scene in the paper chase. Do you know the paper chase? The TV, well, it was a film first in the TV show about first year, about law school. I've heard of it, but I've never seen it. John Hausman plays the professor. And at the end of the first season, it only ran for about three seasons, but critically acclaimed, at the end of the first season, the student who has been working so hard for Professor Kingsfield's class. And just he will do, it's just working night and day for Kingsfield and trying to please him.

And at the end of the first season, it's the end of the, it's the end of the semester end. the next semester begins. And the student goes into the building and the elevator is closing and he grabs the elevator and opens it. And Kingsfield is standing in the elevator. And so he gets into the elevator with Kingsfield. And he turns to Kingsfield and he says, Professor Kingsfield, I just wanted you to know, I really enjoyed your class last semester.

And Kingsfield goes, oh, that's very fine. And he pauses and he turns and he says, what was your name again? You know, I don't think that, I mean, Father Sweeney wouldn't have remembered me. Father Amalley did not remember me. But they made such great impacts on my life that I remember them. And I think in some ways, that keeps them alive. I don't know where I'm going with this. No, without a doubt.

I don't know why I went down this road and where you, you somehow opened the gate. I don't know what it did, but there you go. It's a great story. It's a phenomenal story. And I think if we're honest with ourselves, we can see the, I look at it as a journey, like especially for young men.

And I can't speak to being a young woman. I have a daughter and I want to help shape her life. And I hope that she can take from these similar stories. But I think there's a journey there from seeing something that you're not quite sure of. Maybe you're a little bit afraid of. You know, it's almost like the mystic tradition. It's almost like being an encounter with a guy. Godlike figure. Because when you're a young man and you see an authority figure, that person has

an incredible amount of power over you. They may not even know it. Yeah. And so here you are trying to walk in their footsteps, just like maybe on the beach when somebody carried somebody. And you, you pour your heart out and you do something and you are, you're shunned away. Or maybe you think you're shunned away. But then you, then you re-encounter them. Like you're going and saying, you know what you didn't have to go to dr swiney and in challenge the grade but you did i'm sure that wasn't an easy thing to do no and then you sit in there and then you have this person whom you're somewhat afraid of and then they explain to you in a in not only a caring way but like in a brotherly or a mentor way or a divine you can almost say it's a divine lesson happening there because a

divine lesson would mean it's something that you carried with you forever you know like i i think there's a lot of, first off, it's a beautiful story. And I hope that people can listen to this. And maybe they have mentors in their life, but they can find the divinity in life. I think that's a story about the divine nature of life. I think you're right. It's about finding the moments and the people that are able to do that for you. And I think for, I think many of us hope that we can fill that role for others. Yes. Right. you know, we want to, you know, I mean, I would love to. I don't know whether or not I do. I mean, I have students who come back to me many, many years later quoting things that came out of my mouth and I'm always stunned.

Because it seems like, you know, I didn't even think they were listening to me. But sure enough, something is stuck with them the same way that what Father Sweeney said to me is stuck with me, which is interesting. I mean, I've got something in my syllabi that talk about, you know, late papers. and how grades are knocked off for late papers because if deadlines weren't important, it wouldn't begin with dead. And I can't tell you how many students over the years have come back to me and have sent me notes with that line

because they remember that. You know, it's, if you look at it from this angle, the conversation that you are having about, about, you know, Dr. Sweeney and having these mentors in your life. And then recent, and you just said, I hope that I have that effect on students. I don't think it's too far fetched to believe that Dr. Sweeney and his colleagues were sitting in an office having the exact same conversation that you're having now. You might be right.

You might be right. Think about how beautiful that is. Like, here they are. I hope that one day I can influence somebody the way this person influenced me. And you're doing it without even knowing it probably. Yeah. I mean, I would hope that somewhere somehow, you know, he is. is, here's this and knows how much of an impact he had on me because I wanted to tell him,

but it was too late. I couldn't. And that's why, and I, and I've told this story to students as well, and I tell them for that very reason, don't wait to thank the people who are really important in your life. Don't wait to acknowledge your mentors and their significance because it'll be too late. Yeah. It's fascinating to think about that cycle of mentors and that cycle of learning. You know, you can become, in a sense, the person that inspired you most. And in doing so, you continue that path for other people to follow. Like, in some way, you're the, you are the lighthouse that's calling out to those in the fog that may be lost. And for every one of those you reach, you build another lighthouse or, you know, on another point.

It's like it's like uniparocero, just walking up the coast and building monasteries. You know, in a way, that's what you're doing, man. It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, you know, one of the things that I did when I was younger is, I mean, I did not plan to go on and get a PhD in English literature and become a professor. It was the furthest thing from my mind. I was first generation college.

Neither of my parents had gone to college. And, I mean, I started out as an undergraduate political science major. I wanted to go to law school. It's all I ever wanted to do. And what I finally realized, I wanted to do as so many of us do, is to make a difference, right? how can I make a difference the best way that I know how? And through a variety of experiences that first year and undergrad, I realized that law school was not the way that it was going to happen for me.

I didn't know what it was going to be. I didn't discover the fact that I was going to be an English professor until many years later, but I had realized that that wasn't it and that I was going to need to look elsewhere. And I think that for, a lot of folks today and a lot of students, again, the population I'm around the most, they're hesitant to take those chances because it's too, it's too unsure, it's too unclear, it's too uncertain. It's easier to come in and know I'm going to major in this, and that's what I'm going to do. And, you know, at my particular institution, we don't actually allow them to declare their major until the spring of their sophomore year.

We don't want them to declare it before then. We want them to play the field and look at what's around. You know, and I tell prospective parents, I tell, you know, most college students change their majors three times. So, you know, the major that your kid has, it was funny, I was talking to a parent during our opening week. and I said that and she said, yeah, she said, my kid changed his major on the way here today. You know, he was going to be a physics major. Now he wants to do graphic design.

And I said, yeah, I mean, that's going to happen, you know. But we are uncomfortable with uncertainty. And so too many people, I think, get locked into something that they end up regretting just in the name of this is what I'm going to do. and and you know yes i've got it all figured out um you know the the number of people who are going each day to wall street and are on the train reading shakespeare tells me something you know now yeah i mean you can be well-rounded to be sure but i can't tell you how many folks i've met in my lifetime who've worked

regretted the path that they took because it was either the safe path or the one that someone else expected them to take. And it does take, I think, a lot of guts to, to, you know, let's go frost, right, to take the road less taken. It's not, it's not easy. You know, it's not an easy walk on the road less taken. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like we've gotten to like this intellectual dark ages where everything is told to you, this is the path to become a millionaire.

This is the path to do this. But then, you know, if we get back to King Arthur, you know, they would, they would go and cut their own path to find the grail. And that's everyone had their own way to get into the forest, to the dark, wherever they thought was the darkest part was the spot that you should start. at. And like, that's where you find, you know, and where you stumble is where you find the treasure, right? Maybe this idea of, of education should be to become uncertain. Instead of going to school to become certain about something, maybe you should be going to school until you find something you're uncertain about. And in a way, I think we're there. If you look at what's happening in the education system throughout, you know, at least in the United States, it seems to be stagnant.

And when it becomes stagnant, that means there's a real, opportunity for change. I think that might be something there. Yeah, I mean, I hope so. I fear that it may not be because we're so focused on vocations and finding your vocation. And so many institutes of higher learning, I mean, so many colleges and universities have been turned into pseudo-votech schools, you know, just preparing people for a career an X. I used to joke with parents at admission events that, you know, at liberal arts institutions,

you know, we're not teaching kids how to fix air conditioners. If you want to do that, you know, we can send you someplace where they do that. That's not what we do. And then one year a parent came up to me afterwards and said, I fix air conditioners for a living. I was like, oh, my God. And now I don't use that anymore at admissions events. Oh, I felt horrible. I had a backtrack. but I think that's true. You know, so many people are looking for, as you say,

you know, what's going to make them, their millions. Yeah. I mean, I run into a lot of students who, you know, well,

what do you want to do? Well, you know, I want to, basically I want to make money. You know, do you have a passion about anything? Not really.

And, I mean, to me, those are the kind of the saddest human beings who are the ones who have no passion. What about the ones that make millions of dollars and still have no passion? They talk about an emptiness. You can see it in their eyes sometimes.

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, and we certainly have, you know, a sizable number of people now who are just obscenely wealthy and don't seem to know what to do with the rest of lives. I mean, I think it's interesting, and I wrote about this in the chapter on greed and the book on sin, that there's this group that formed of these very wealthy folks, including Bill Gates and Buffett, who are dedicated to giving away a lot of their money to philanthropic groups. And they have made a commitment to do that. But on the other side of the coin, you know when you are interested in building rockets to send people to space and and for what just so

i i don't get that you know it's it's it would be one thing if we were doing if you were doing that in order to advance the knowledge of humanity but it's not their their their vacation trips i think that their plans is to mine asteroids and if you look at at it from that angle. You go, oh, it kind of makes sense. We're going to Mars. Or are we building this thing that can bring golden from a meteor? And make more money. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's sometimes when I talk to my daughter, like, you know, the idea of some pop culture person will come up or some Kardashian or something. And, you know, I'm a big fan of just being like, oh, God, I feel so sorry for him. And she's like, she'll look at me like, dude, dad, they have

everything. And I'm like, I know, isn't that horrible? Like, look at that. I'm so gorgeous. I'm so sorry you have to see this. And this look of confusion on their face, like, what? And I'm like, well, look, I mean, they've given up everything so that they can have this illusion of everything. You know, it just makes me so sad. And, you know, in some ways, I think we could, we, I know that there's so much money that has gone to people in the commercial industry. And in some ways, I'm happy to see people be rewarded for their hard work and rewarded for their sacrifice. And rewarded for their sacrifice. However, I am always a little bit offended at the way they're portrayed to people because it gives off this false illusion. And even people that, you know, I can't imagine what it would be

like to get to a level of such wealth that you become a different person. And how many people have lost relationships or how many people don't talk to their kids because this thing called wealth has got in the way. And now you don't know who really, is this person like me for me or my story? Right, right. I got to imagine. Yeah, I got to imagine at some point in time

you would be suspicious of everybody around you. And I don't know that that's a recipe for success. Yeah. I mean, quite honestly, you know, the only reason I'd be selling my soul is to play the guitar a la Robert Johnson, you know. I mean, I just, I don't, but it seems like a lot of people,

their soul is up for sale. Because they have nothing. It seems, why is that? Why do you think that there's that hole there? It is a hole. I think it's a whole, again,

in our spiritual nature and the inability to really understand what it is to be a human being. Because, you know, I mean, look at it. I mean, if you, you know,

literally, if you were to give up your soul, you would just become a body. And what is, that. I mean, it's funny that you raise the Kardashians. We were watching TV last night and a commercial came on Hulu that apparently the Kardashians have a new show on Hulu. And I said, oh my God, people are still watching this? Why? It baffles me. I can honestly say I've never watched an episode of that show. And I don't say that to be superior. Right. I say that because

I just don't understand why anybody would. I don't get it. Yeah, it seems like a level of decadence. You know, I, and that brings up the questions. Like, when we talk about trying to fill a hole with materialistic goods, do you think that that is something technology is adding to when you spoke about the kids in there? They have to be, they have to be getting. I know when I'm on my phone that I'm getting so many ads and I'm getting on some level that's

manipulating me. It's changing the way I think. When you look at the world through this screen versus the world through this screen, it's a whole different world. But we went through the same discussion with TV. Yep. Right. I mean, I mean, you mentioned Marshall McLuhan earlier. I mean, you know, go back to that early media research. I mean, there were the same issues when it came to television. It's just, it seems more, just more, it seems exacerbated by the fact that that now it's not a matter if I have to go and sit down in front of a television, but I carry this thing around my pocket.

Right. And, you know, I've got this 24-7. And as much as I try to disconnect myself from this damn thing, I got to admit that I'm connected to it too. I mean, I went to go talk to a class this morning on the other side of campus. It's a good thing I brought my phone with me because we now have instituted the two-factor authentication on our computer system, where it sends a code to your phone, which you then have to put in to be allowed in. If I hadn't had my phone with me, I wouldn't have been able to get into the

system. Something's wrong with that. Yeah. It's become the same way that you can close your eyes and use a cane to tap on an object and feel that object and then that cane becomes an extension of you, so too has that phone become an extension of us on a cognitive level. It's like we almost need that thing to bang around so we can understand or interpret the world around us. Yeah. And I'm sure that, you know, you, I, and I'm sure a lot of listeners, know plenty of people who are, who really do use the phone as if it's an extension of their physical being. It's another appendage.

Yeah. How many people have avatars and are beginning to see themselves in this world of the Metaverse? I have enough trouble with myself in the real verse Remind the Metaverse I don't want to live in the Metaverse though That's not a place I think I want to live It just doesn't seem It doesn't seem interesting to me

It seems too artificial and removed from the real You know As much as so much of what we deal with on a daily basis in the real world stinks and is miserable and we don't like it and it's unpleasant. That's what human existence is. It's part of being a human. And, you know, this idea of getting us to the point of the singularity where we can download our consciousness to a computer, for what purpose?

I don't get what the end is of that. I mean, you know, if you're somebody like Ray Kurzfile who's going to live forever, then I suppose, you know, it's so that it can be saved for the next diversion of you that is a healthier body. I don't know. I don't want my consciousness in somebody else's body. Yeah. Talk about, I don't.

I'd have to read more about that myself. I mean, I've read plenty of it, and I still don't understand it. And I've read a lot of Ray Kurzfiles' work, especially the early. work. The later work is a little out there. But the earlier work, I mean, age of spiritual machines and things like that, is really kind of interesting. But, you know, once he declared that he was going to live forever, I was like, wait a minute. What? I don't, I don't know about you, but I don't want to live forever. Yeah. Do you what I have heard this brings up an interesting point. It seems to me that there are only one can, there's only insights that come to you.

you when you're on death's door, when you're knocking on the door, I, I've read tons of biographies about people and they talk about in their, in their last dying days, you know, no one ever says, I wish I had more money or I wish I would have worked longer hours. You know, it's always, I wish I would have been a better father. I wish I would have been a better lover. Right. And I think that while you can think about those things now, you don't truly understand the weight of those and things that I can't even think of until you come to the end of your time. Do you think that that is, I've heard people debate that like that's just wishwash and silliness.

But what is your take on that? No, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's the curiosity of, of humanity is that we can't see things forward that way. We can only see them backwards. It's kind of, you know, to look back and regret. I mean, you know, what, what's that, that line about the, the saddest. phrase is I not not I I could have but I should have or right you know it's just the regrets that we have about what we haven't done and I don't know if part of that is just on the nature

of our being reflective beings but it just there's a there's a you know we're constantly battling the past and the future it's a constant battle, right? I mean, our memories of things are looming large and really, I think, dominate as far as looking forward. And sometimes for some people, as we were talking about earlier, it dominates to the point where they just are unable to look forward. They literally live in the past, right? And for people like that, I mean, it's just, that's a boring existence. It really is. Yeah, I once heard that depression is being trapped in the past and anxiety is being trapped in the future. And I think we've all probably been trapped in both of those places. And the only way to get out of it is just to enjoy the present. Exactly. Exactly. So, well, Dr. David Solomon, my friend, I can't tell you how much I enjoy this.

And I do too, sir. It's so much fun. And I love, we have the ability to go wherever we, want and we have the freedom to do it. And it's so much fun. And we do go everywhere, don't we? Yeah, but ultimately we end up at the destination of learning. Absolutely. And so where I've noticed that you have a new link and I put it in the show notes. I think it's where you can buy your book The Seven Deadly Sins from an independent site. Is that accurate? Yes. Okay, I put that one in there. And people, I highly recommend going and checking out the book, Seven Deadly Sins. It's a great book.

I learned a lot. It is, it looks like Carl Young did all the footnotes because there's a whole book of footnotes in there. And it's so well researched. And I can tell the hard work that's put in there. What was the title of the other book that you've written? Well, my first book was a book on the medieval Bible. It's called the Glossor Ordinaria. It's a very academic work.

And then I've written two monographs on higher education. And then the Seven Deadly Sins book and upcoming, probably next year. year a book on Angels and Demons and Pop Culture, right with my wife. That's going to be so fun. It's going to be so amazing. If you need someone to proof, read it, or if you want to give someone a copies, then sign it, you know, I'd probably be a guy to do that. Absolutely. And where can people find, I'd like to end off the conversation with, what do you got coming up, where can people find you, and what are you excited about? Yep. So, websites, David A. Solomon, S-A-O-M-O-M-N.com. My books,

and my blog and my lectures and everything is up there. Excited about coming up. Real busy with the semester here, and things are moving along and really thrilled that I hope fall is coming because I'm tired of the really hot summer that we've had here in Virginia. I don't know the weather's like there in Hawaii at the moment, but it is still really horribly humid here. So I'm waiting for fall to actually come in earnest.

The leaves have started falling in my backyard. so I'm optimistic. Me too. I'm looking forward to the future and our future conversations and changing the world and maybe maybe getting to talk to my friend

David Solomon or as I call him, Mr. Sweeney the Jesuit. We're coming against it. So that's what we have today. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for your time and we'll see you again next Tuesday.