TrueLife - Dr. David Salomon - The Codex Chronicles| Saint Inatius of Loyola

Episode Date: November 18, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Welcome to The Codex Chronicles… A professor’s Tale of Manuscripts.https://davidsalomonblog.wordpress.comhttps://cnu.edu/people/davidsalomon/Dr. David A. Salomon holds a PhD in English literature from the University of Connecticut and an MA from the City University of New York. A specialist in the literature, religion and culture of the Middle Ages and Renaissance England, he most recently spent thirteen years as a professor of English at the Sage Colleges in Troy and Albany, NY. During his time there, he also served as chair of the Department of English and Modern Languages, director of general education, director of study abroad, chair of the Faculty Development Committee, faculty advisor for the student newspaper, and was the founding director of the Kathleen Donnelly Center for Undergraduate Research. He joined CNU as the inaugural Director of Undergraduate Research and Creative Activity in September 2017.His book on the medieval glossed Bible was published by the University of Wales Press in 2013. In 2015, he co-edited and co-authored a monograph, Redefining the Paradigm, which discussed new models for faculty evaluation to improve student learning. His new book, The Seven Deadly Sins: How Sin Influenced the West from the Middle Ages to the Modern Era, was published by Praeger in April 2019. He has published essays on everything from medieval mysticism to anger in the Bible, and has given presentations on teaching and faculty evaluation models at conferences, such as the Teaching Professor and the annual AACU Conference. Medieval manuscripts are perceived differently by the human senses compared to common text today, offering a unique and multisensory experience: 1. Visual Aesthetics: Medieval manuscripts, often handwritten and lavishly decorated, showcase intricate calligraphy, elaborate illustrations, and vibrant colors. The visual aesthetics of these manuscripts evoke a sense of artistry and craftsmanship that is distinct from modern printed text. 2. Tactile Sensation: The parchment or vellum used for medieval manuscripts provides a tactile experience as one feels the texture of the material beneath their fingers. This physical interaction with the medium adds a sensory dimension to reading and handling these historical texts. 3. Aged Scent: Over time, medieval manuscripts develop a distinct aroma, carrying the scent of antiquity. This aged smell can evoke a feeling of connection to the past and contribute to the overall sensory experience. 4. Historical Connection: Reading medieval manuscripts allows individuals to connect with the past in a way that digital or modern printed texts cannot replicate. The physicality of holding an ancient document establishes a direct link to the historical era in which it was created. 5. Auditory Silence: Unlike the electronic devices that accompany much of modern reading, medieval manuscripts invite a quieter environment for exploration. The absence of electronic buzz allows readers to immerse themselves in the silence of the written word. 6. Cultural Imagination: The experience of reading medieval manuscripts transports readers into a different cultural mindset, understanding the context in which these texts were written, interpreted, and appreciated. 7. Spiritual and Mystical Essence: For manuscripts related to religion and mysticism, the act of reading becomes a spiritual journey, as the physicality of the text and the esoteric content converge to create a unique spiritual experience.In summary, medieval manuscripts offer a multisensory encounter that goes beyond the mere act of reading. The visual aesthetics, tactile sensation, historical connection, and spiritual essence create a captivating journey that connects readers to both the words on the page and the distant world from which they emerged. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, I know, I know what you're thinking. For so long I've heard the echoes from the mountaintops. More David Solomon! Well, we're back, ladies and gentlemen, we are back, and we have the one and only David Solomon here. So to all the mystical seekers of knowledge, please join me in extending this warm welcome.

As a director of undergraduate research and creative activity at the Office of Research and Creative Activity, the Center for Sustainability and Education. No, that's not that me. I'm not the Center for Sustainability. I'm going to kick it over to you, David. I think that you can do it much better than I can. Well, thanks for having me back. Good to see you again. Yeah, I'm at Christopher Newport University in Newport, Newport, Newark, New York, where I do direct the office of student research and creative activity.

And I've been teaching. I'm a professor of medieval English literature religion for several decades now. And still teach courses here on an honest program and a museum studies program. and written a bunch of books. Most recent book is on The Seven Italy Sins, which George has been kind enough to talk to me about. And started, there we are. There we are.

You're back. We're back. I started my career off in graduate school, working on a dissertation on Catholic mysticism in the Renaissance. And so we've been talking for the last few meetings about various mystics. And today we've got Ignatius Loyola. So. Ignatius Loyola.

You know, I had some ways in which I was going to phrase some of my questions. And one of them was like in this esoteric frame. I thought about starting off with something like, how did the convalescent interlude of Ignatius of Loyola, metamorphose into a crucible for his mystic sojourn, birthing the alchemy of the spiritual exercises? Okay, we have to delete chat GPT from your computer. I'm addicted.

bad essay written by one of my students that was generated by chat GPT. We should have a whole thing on that. Like, can you tell the direction this and this? And I bet you that you can. I bet it's totally plausible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, Ignatius is a really interesting figure. I mean, you know, founder of the Jesuits.

He lived from 1491 to 1556. And he was a soldier who was really mortally wounded. and in his convalescence, as you said, in 1521 experienced a conversion and had a mystical experience. And from that grew the development of the Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, finally founded in 1541, largely but not exclusively as a reaction of the church to the Reformation, a way to, help to defend the Catholic Church against the growing Protestant Reformation in the middle of the 16th century. Jesuits almost immediately became known for education and scientific study and travel. So, I mean, to this, and those are our legacies that really we still feel today.

I mean, education, I mean, you know, several of the best universities in the U.S. are, we're founded by Jesuits, Fordham University, which is where I started as an undergraduate with the Jesuits. And Creighton and Omaha, I mean, there's this a bunch of Gonzaga, good Jesuit institutions that are grounded in not, just a Catholic belief, but a real serious devotion to the pursuit of knowledge through study and research and science. Some of the earliest Jesuits in the 16th century and 17th century were well-known scientists, which seems for a lot of people inconsistent with being Catholic, but it was not. And also several that really traveled far and wide, most notably Mateo Ricci, who traveled extensively to China in order to proselytize and certainly to try to convert people. But also in the process, integrating a lot of different ideas from different traditions when you're exposed to them and expose those cultures. So Ignatius writes a book called The Spiritual Exercises almost immediately after his conversion in the first couple of years, which has become the handbook, if you will, for a kind of Ignatian spirituality.

It's, it's, I mean, one of the things that I was attracted to and my, my very first publication back in graduate school was actually an essay on Ignatian spirituality and Jung's active imagination. Because there's a great deal in Ignatian mysticism about imaging and imagining. That word comes up repeatedly. in the text. So much, you know, it's, and I made a note here because, you know, it's everywhere. That having what Young would eventually call active imagination. But it's interesting because on the opening page of spiritual exercises, Ignatius writes that it's not an abundance of knowledge that fills and satisfies the soul, but rather an interior understanding and savoring of things. And so the spiritual exercises are really focused on reflection and contemplation and not on an external pursuit.

So a little bit different from some of the other mystics that we've looked at, and at the same time, you know, similar to some other ones as well. But, you know, I, and the spiritual exercises is intended to be conducted. They are exercises. You have a director who directs you through the exercises. That's the way Ignatius laid it out and thought that it should be done. It's not something that really somebody can do on their own. It typically takes 30 days to complete the whole thing.

But it sometimes can be adjusted for shorter kinds of. retreats, but the emphasis in Ignatian spirituality and mysticism is on a personal experiential encounter with God. So it is a very personal experience. It's a very internal experience, but it is an experience that you do have. I mean, it is experiential. In other words, the imagining that goes on is real. Sounds like. It's kind of contradictory, but, and so I think that's a big part of what he's about. Yeah, it's, I love the idea of the personal experience of the divine. And sometimes I think that that may be the thread that strings together, these, these different mystics that we've spoken about is that it's their, it's their own, even though it's their own individual account of what's happening, on some level, we really resonate with that.

And maybe you could speak. And I love the idea of imagery and imagination and tying Carl Young to Ignatius and the Jesuits. Is that something that's unique to the Jesuits? Is that this idea? Well, I mean, there's two different things going on, right? So there is that personal experience. Yes. I mean, if you read Ignatius's autobiography, which is absolutely a fantastic, very short text.

text. It's not very long at all. But he tells you exactly what he experienced and, and what happened. And that's his personal take. Spiritual exercises, he's clearly writing for others. He's writing it as, as I say, a kind of a handbook for other people. You know, I'm just looking at the autobiography right now and um you know in in the in the opening um chapter of it um i'll just i'll just read a paragraph here um he talks about how he in his convalescence i mean he was his leg had been um severely injured um and it was broken and then reset and then broken again and he actually refers to it in the English translation as butchery. And he

walked with a limb for the rest of his life. It's amazing that he walked at all, to be honest, after what he went through. But he goes on talk about that while he was in that recovery, he was given to reading, as he

calls them, worldly and fictitious books. Usually, he says, called books of chivalry. So books about knighthood and that kind of thing. Right. And then he says when he felt better, he asked to be given some of them to pass the time. But in that house, none of those that he usually read could be found.

So they gave him a life of Christ and a book of the lives of the saints in Spanish. As he read over them many times, he became rather fond of what he found written there. He was not a believer necessarily before then. Putting his reading aside, he sometimes stopped to think about the things he had read. and at other times about the things of the world that he used to think about before. Of the many vain things that presented themselves to him, one took so much hold on his heart that he was absorbed in thinking about it for two or three or four hours without realizing it.

He imagined what he would do in the service of a certain lady, the means he would take so he could go to the country where she lived, the verses, the words he would say to her, the deeds of arms he would do in her service. He became so conceited with this that he did not consider how impossible it would be, because the lady was not of the lower nobility, nor a countess, nor a duchess, but her station was higher than any of these. And he continues then, nevertheless, our Lord assisted him, causing other thoughts that arose from the things he read to follow these.

While reading the life of our Lord and of the saints, he stopped to think, reasoning within himself, quote, What if I should do what St. Francis did? what St. Dominic did. So he pondered over many things that he found to be good, always proposing to himself what was difficult and serious. And as he proposed them, he seemed to him easy to accomplish. But as every thought was to say to himself,

St. Dominic did this, therefore I have to do it. St. Francis did this, therefore I have to do it. These thoughts also lasted a good while. But when other matters intervened, the worldly thoughts mentioned above returned, He also spent much time on them. This succession of such diverse thoughts, either of the worldly deeds he wished to achieve

or of the deeds of God that came to his imagination, lasted for a long time, and he always dwelt at length on the thought before him until he tired of it and put it aside and turned to other matters. And then he goes on to talk about how there was a difference then. And he developed a desire to imitate the saints and go and and and and he had an image of um mary with the baby jesus and this was his his mystical his first mystical encounter and um it's it's it's interesting because this is um you know having

as i say i started my undergraduate education at fordum university with the jesuits ended up writing my doctoral dissertation on Jesuits. And the Jesuit education, I mean, the way that one is educated in the Jesuit construct is so clearly developed out of Ignatius's autobiography and spiritual exercises. It's focused on being very well-rounded, getting a very well-rounded, getting a very broad sense of the world. I mean, I remember as a freshman, you know, this is many years ago, I'm sure the curriculum has changed significantly now, but we had a core curriculum. And so, all of us took in our freshman year and sophomore year, we had to take a history class, a theology class, a philosophy class, and an English class. Freshman year and sophomore year,

to have one of each of those. And, you know, I have to say, I mean, you know, those are not necessarily all classes I would have taken of my own volition. And, you know, the theology class, I mean, I remember taking the theology class freshman year and I was completely lost because here I was a Bronx Jew at a Catholic institution. I think I was the only Jew in the class. It was a foundation of Christian theology with Father Baldwin. And I still have the textbook somewhere here in my office from that class because I remember when we got to the chapter on the Trinity, I just, I was completely baffled. I mean, all these Catholic kids in the class understood exactly what he was talking about.

I was like, what is this? Three gods, what? I knew nothing about Catholicism. But I think that that grounding is, it comes right out of Ignatius's. own experience, I think, of really reading and thinking and reflecting. I love the language in the idea of worldly thoughts pulling you back from the ideas of like that. It speaks to so, it speaks to me and I'm sure you and so many of the people listening is that

often we find ourselves in this, maybe it's our own world of mysticism or it's our own ideas or our own divinity or whatever connection we have and then we're pulled screeching back By the worldly thoughts. I think it's especially difficult, you know, today. I mean, not just today as in today because of what's going on in the world currently, which, you know, itself is enough of a mess. But just our contemporary world and the fact that there is such a distinction and a division between what we would call, you know, the worldly.

and the spiritual yeah um and people i think as we've talked about before they they kind of crave the spiritual and the worldly keeps pulling them the other way um it's and it's difficult not to i mean you know it i mean you know the one of the the great ironies of the 21st century is is all these meditation apps on your phone right i mean you know it just seems completely uh counterintuitive that i got to use my phone in order to meditate um when that's the thing that's getting in the way to begin with but but but as I think you know what we are really experiencing is a real um just I don't want to say conflict but um we're running up against a lot of the same things that Ignatius ran up against it's just in a different guise you know I mean he had to deal

with the world you know and the world was the world's not a pretty place and in a a lot of ways. It's, you know, I mean, we don't want to go off on a tangent here into what's going on in the Middle East, but, you know, I mean, the, the situation is so troubling for everybody. And, you know, I think what's interesting is that somebody posted something this morning that I actually reposted on my Facebook page. And they said, it's, it's okay to be heartbroken for more than one group of people at the same time. You know, this feeling like, well, you either have to be with the side of the Palestinians or the side of the Israelis. It's like, you know, you can be heartbroken for both of them.

They're both in a bad situation. But I think part of the point of the spiritual exercises is to give people that break to separate from the worldly and to focus on the internal and the reflective for a period of 30 days. But as I say, I mean, Ignatius is clear and it's clear all throughout the early Jesuits writing that this is not something that you pick up and do yourself. You're supposed to have a spiritual director who's going to guide you through it because there are things that you're going to encounter as there often are when you do this kind of work, which are going to be difficult. And Ignatius knew that and he believed that it wasn't necessary for you to struggle and go through that on your own. So in a way, you know, it's a precursor of the whole modern idea of cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Yeah.

Of having somebody who you talk with. It's talk therapy. And in some ways, I think that's what spiritual exercises is. It's talk therapy. Yeah. I think there's something to be said about rights of passage and ceremony and the circle in which we talk, whether it's see cognitive behavior theory or whether it's a ceremony that has. happens when you're inside this ceremonial circle it could be a church it could be a gathering

whatever i think that in that circle everybody gets to feel the pain of the other person and there's something really healing about that you know when you when you talk about hey we're all here together or i've seen this really cool ritual where women who have lost children they they enter into this circle and then the men surround them you know and it's like this circle within a circle and it's just like the imagery of that alone is is is kind of gives me goosebumps to think about. Like, here's these men holding space for these women who have lost something, but we've all lost something on some level.

I think that's what the Jesuit writings kind of get down to. And when you start thinking about it. I mean, a lot of that is chalked that up to our whole concept of empathy, right? Of being able to empathize and being able to understand the suffering of others. Yes. And I think that's a challenging thing for us, you know, to deal with because I'm not even sure I know what that means to understand the suffering of others you know I mean I can I can you know I mean it's the difference between sympathy and

empathy right you know sympathy I'm sorry for what you're going through empathy I know what you're going through I've been there I understand it in that a different way and I mean I can't empathize with people who are, you know, whose homes are being bombed. I've never been in that situation. But I can, I can understand suffering. Yes. And, and, and, and I guess that that's something that a lot of people have to work out. You know, I'm just looking at my window here, it's over now. We had a group of students outside who for the last hour and a half have been, quote, unquote protesting on the steps of our administration building. It was a pro-Palestinian rally. And I'm just sitting here thinking, you know, do they really know and understand what's going on?

Do they get it? Because a lot, and I don't mean to be dismissive, but a lot of, a lot of students at that age, they don't. They're learning. You know, I had a whole discussion with my class several weeks ago because I'm teaching the Bible this semester. and the attacks happened the week, ironically, that we were just about to discuss first and second Samuel. So discuss kings and the development in that whole region. And so we came into class and I said, you know, we can't ignore this. I said, you know, our area is suddenly hot. And so one of the things that I did with my class was I brought up Google Earth. and I showed them the region on Google Earth

and I was able to zoom into Gaza and you know it's one thing to hear that it's one of the most populated places on the planet it's another thing to see it on Google Earth to zoom in at a street level and see how close everything is it makes it much more real. It also helped because quite honestly Newport News where I live is a peninsula in Virginia

and Newport News is just about the same size as the Gaza Strip. It's 25 miles long and 8 miles wide at its widest spot. And so all of that just made it real for them. They asked a lot of questions, which was great. They didn't know a lot. So I was glad that they asked questions. And one of my students at the end, actually, at the end of that discussion for about 20 minutes, said, thank you. She said, because we don't have cable in the dorms. So where are we getting our news from? And most of them, of course, are getting most of their news from social media, which is notoriously inaccurate. And so we've done check-ins just about every week to say, you know, okay, what's going on now?

What questions do you have? You know, what's arisen? And I do think that all people, whether they're of my students age or, or old men like us, George, who, you know, they want to have that capacity for sympathizing with people who are suffering. But the fact of the matter is that most of us lead pretty charmed lives and don't really understand

that level of suffering. And it's difficult to convey that, I think. Boy, that took us a whole different direction from Ignatius, but... No, I think it's relevant. Not at all. I think it's totally relevant. And I love the idea of getting to hear students learn in real time, you know, in a conversational setting, like where you sit down and you talk about it versus like, I read this thing

from this guy who has his friend that was over, you know, like, that's... Right. Yeah, I mean, I show them, I show them the live webcam of the Temple Mount. You can look at the Western Wall live 24 hours a day. And you can see how close everything is. The Dumb of the Rock is right there. I mean, it's the, you know, it's one thing to talk about the fact that these things are literally on top of each other. Yeah.

It's another thing to show it. And so I had, I forget, I had it up on the screen. And one of the kids in my class sort of got startled and said, wait a minute, that's live? Yeah, that's a live shot. You know, you're watching. And it was like 1.30 in the morning. And there are people at the Western Wall. And so, you know, as far as, you know, the use of the Internet when it comes to things like this can be really helpful to make it, I think, more real.

As you say, it's one thing to read about it in the textbook. But to see it actually is different. See, this is what one of many reasons why I admire what you're doing. I feel like you're pioneering a whole new way of learning. I'm going to bring in this live shot of what's actually happening. we just happen to be teaching this part of Samuel right now. Like it's so interactive and so unique to what you're doing. Obviously there's a reason you're the creative director.

Like you're creating new ways for people to learn. It's a beautiful. I mean, that came from, you know, the attacks that just happened. And that day, actually, we were, I was out with my family where we're out on a shopping trip up in Richmond about an hour away. And thankfully, because I usually do bring it when we do with. shopping trips. I had my earbuds with me because I can't take the shopping noise. And so I had the CNN simulcast on the whole day. I was listening to the whole thing. And, you know, I was thinking to myself,

you know, I got to go in and teach Tuesday night. How am I going to talk about this? And it occurred to me, I think, the next day I was sitting at home that, you know, well, you know, they kept saying on the news that Gaza is one of the most populated places, densely populated places on the planet. It's like, well, how can I convey that and really show them? It's like, oh, Google Earth. Yeah, it's, I love it. The pioneering, that's all I can think of. Like, that's the word that comes to it.

It's, and it must be done. Like, you have to find new ways to teach people about history that's happening as we speak. Like, it's moving so fast right now. Like, how do you possibly? have an idea of the, I don't know, how do you incorporate the past when the future is moving so quickly right in front of you, right? Yeah, it's really hard. You know, and because we live in a world where things are moving so quickly, it's tough. I mean, I always tell my students when I'm preparing them to go and present at conferences, I tell them what I do, which if I'm at a conference, the first thing that I do, the morning that I'm going to be presenting a paper is I turn on the news.

I want to see what happened overnight, because that may have changed the entire tone of the day. So, you know, if I'm giving a presentation on just, let's say, for argument's sake, on something to do with the temple mount, and, you know, overnight there was an attack there. If I don't know about that and I go and I give the same presentation, I sound tone deaf. And so I think it's really important to keep up on what's going on. Now, by the same token, of course, there's the danger of getting sucked into it. And I was for quite a while months ago. And I really had to cut back on my watching of news because it had gotten out of control.

And it was not making me feel good. And so now I limit the amount of TV news I watch. you know i i read my my new york times every day and i'm watching updates throughout the day as they come across my phone but unless there's a significant thing that happens i don't usually switch it on during the day because it's just it's too much um it's over it's overwhelming especially because um the news more than ever now in 2023 is so reliant on visuals right i mean it's it's funny if people go back in youtube um you know news broadcasts from the 1960s and 70s you know half of it is the anchor sitting there in the studio

talking to you there's no pictures there's no video there's nothing um and now you know everything is reliant on this this embedded on the scene video which on the one hand is fantastic but on the other hand I think it also is having a negative effect on some people. Because, you know, you and I remember the first Gulf War and watching that develop live on CNN. And we were just absolutely astonished. It was like, oh, my God, this is what's happening. And we're watching it live. The bombing of Baghdad.

We're watching this live with, you know, Wolf Blitzer, you know, that's really his name. It's like, how is that possible? And but I think, and my students agree with me, they say that largely now we become desensitized to it. And so, you know, we see this on TV. We see this on the news, this violence and this pain. And it doesn't have the same effect because we're desensitized. You know, and I don't know if that's, if there are other cultural issues to blame for that, I'm not looking to do that.

But, you know, I mean, when I watch film of the Twin Towers falling, it still gives me a chill. And I remember, you know, seeing it live. And, you know, but I don't know whether or not later generations have that same sense. And I guess that that's part of just growth and presentism. I mean, I suppose that you and I wouldn't have the sense. reaction to watching video of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, as we would say to the to the attack of 9-11 or anything, you know, more and more recent memory in our memory.

So I don't know. I don't know. It's it's an interesting, it's an interesting issue that we're going to have to deal with for the future here. But, you know, I do encourage people. I mean, if you've never watched, I mean, go back and watch Walter Cronkite talking about Kennedy being assassinated, the anniversary of which is what coming up next Wednesday. Two weeks to the day after my birthday. And, you know, it was Cronkite sitting there in the studio on the phone listening to people call in and talk to him and tell him what was going on.

There was no video. And when he announced that Kennedy was dead, it was him in the studio announcing. Kennedy's dead. It wasn't even a picture of Kennedy up on the screen. Very different now. Very different. And I don't buy into that whole visual learner nonsense. I mean, that pretty much has been been debunked. But, you know, certainly we're more visual culture than we've ever been. Yeah. It's. And that kind of brings you back to Ignatius, because, I mean, that's what he's talking about. What imagery and imagine. Yeah. You know, the visual. I mean, so much of spiritual life.

exercises is about imagining and images of Jesus and images of Mary and thinking about this. And that's why I think it was such a good connection with Carl Jung's active imagination. Because that's kind of what Ignatius is saying that you need to do is use your imagination in a kind of an active sense, actively engage with it. Let me bring it back for just another minute. I think it's so fascinating to think about the ideas of, of the last, the Gulf War

or even Kennedy being assassinated and the idea of someone sitting on the screen and giving you their words and then you imagining what's happening. In some ways, you know, in some ways you are, I want to stick to the topic of like, imagining what 9-11 was for us,

the next generation can only have our account of what happened. And all of a sudden, the further we rippled away from the event, the more convoluted it becomes. In some ways, that's exactly what's happening right now, right? Like how much of what's happening at the Temple Mount Live cam are convoluted ripples of what happened thousands of years ago? How can anybody really thoroughly have an understanding of what it is? And it's fascinating. That's why so much of such a stress. And I mean, Ignatius is doing it in the 16th century.

On experiential, on the experiential, you have to experience this. Yes. You know, and in higher ed today, we talk about experiential learning, right? That you have to go on study abroad trips, you know, do research, do internships. You have to actually have the experiences because that's the way that you learn, not just sitting in the classroom, reading about it in a book. And I think that, you know, that's what's so revolutionary about it, what Ignatius is doing in spiritual exercises, is he saying, yeah, okay, you're reading this in the book,

but now you have to experience this. So you have to engage on a different level with your imagination and your intellect and have that experience. It's not just something that you're reading on a page. And that's a pretty new way of doing things. Okay, let me propose this radical question to you. Is it possible that the people who are in the midst of the worst traumas ever are the most fortunate people who get to experience spirituality. It seems like you're the closest to it. I know that that's a radical thing to think about, but maybe we start looking at the holy land. We start looking, forget about even destinations. Like when you are close to death, are you the person that's touched by spirit in a way that no one

else is? Is that why so many people want to walk up to that edge? Yeah. It's possible. I just, I don't know whether they have the objectivity to be able to realize it. Yeah, that's a great point. Right. Yes. Because when you're in the midst of that trauma, it just becomes all consuming, you know. And the only ways are to perhaps be able to understand it is to then reflect on it. It's somewhat objectively in retrospect, if you're able to.

Yes. I mean, I think that's what a lot of us do. for example with, you know, if we were affected dramatically by what happened on 9-11, for whatever reason. You know, in the midst of it, in the moment, it was, we didn't understand that. But then looking back at it, we realized, I mean, that's what PTSD is all about, right? You know, post-traumatic stress, that you realize that, oh, my God, that was incredibly traumatic. and, you know, it happened in the past, but there's still a lingering effect from it.

Right. That now I can start to try to, you know, unpack, which I couldn't do when I was in the midst of it. Yeah. And I think that that's what so many of these mystics help me seeing, is that there's a way to integrate. Like, here's people from hundreds of years ago that had ways of integration that, you know,

are still. cutting edge today if you really read them like i mean they're pretty cutting edge right to think yeah yeah yeah and and still being you know actively more relevant than ever so you know and probably more important than ever given given the way the world is right now right yes uh you know i mean the i mean my gosh the number of of meditation groups online never mind online but even just locally you know in your your local neighborhood, there are all sorts of groups like that that are engaged in that kind of introspection. Take a moment, right?

I mean, the Jewish Community Center here had started a meditation group. Ironically, it was just a couple of weeks before the attacks in September. And I went to the first meeting. It was going to be a monthly meeting. And the second meeting was supposed to have occurred the night we ended up having a rally after the attacks. So they postponed it. But, you know, I think meditation is, is probably more important now than ever.

And, you know, and using that word in a very broad sense, right? I mean, I think that's what that's what we're asking our leaders to do, right? Stop and reflect and think before you act. and we don't do that enough just as human beings anymore. There's too much, too much reaction to things and not enough, you know, let me think about this first, right? You know, I mean, there are things, I think there are apps that you can actually get that will delay the sending of an email, right?

So when you, it won't send it out immediately because, you know, 10 minutes later you realize, oh, I shouldn't have said that. So I want to go back and fix it. But if you click send, you're screwed. You know, so there's too much reactive. And that's, I mean, that's what's, that's the discussion that's going on at the moment in Israel, right? Is that Netanyahu is reacting to what happened on October 7th. And, you know, in one sense, you say, well, you can't blame them. But I think what they're, what's being asked is that they stop for a second and just, and think a little bit.

I mean, because it was interesting, Netanyahu, even when he, when it was asked that they stopped, that they, that they, that they not have a ceasefire, but I forget the way that they were referring to it. Right. He, he even brought up 9-11 and he said the United States. States reacted almost immediately to 9-11. And you know, you can't expect that we're not going to do the same. But, you know, too many of our leaders, I mean, they don't reflect. Two wrongs don't make a right. No.

No, they don't. And, you know, as I said earlier, I mean, you know, it's okay to feel pain for two different groups of people. I mean, you know, personally, I feel pain for both. Yeah. The Palestinians are going through hell. And, you know, the Israelis are as well. It is not a good situation on either side. And, you know, in discussing this a few weeks ago with a group that I was at, a local group here in town, you know, it was sort of agreed that, well, the only solution here to this problem is the two-state.

solution. And it's like, well, yeah, but we've been saying that for years. And in the current state of things, that's, I mean, any, any solution is out the window. It's not going to happen right now. I mean, we should only hope that eventually cooler heads, I guess, will prevail and that people will, the suffering on both sides will ease up. I we can hope that we can and I mean you know the the the of course the the the pessimist in me says I don't see it happening anytime soon and I don't see it happening anytime soon and part of the problem for the Palestinians is they have nowhere to go um you know I mean Israel is committed to to to eliminating Hamas and it's difficult to do that without um having Palestinian casualties as we've seen and yes they told them moved to the south that didn't really work um but they're stuck they're in a they're in a strip of land that's 25 miles long and eight miles wide they can't get out um the border into israel of course is closed the egyptian border at rafa they will not take Palestinians um and so i what are they supposed to do uh i don't know what the answer to that question is you know um And it reminds me of back after 9-11, I was living in South Dakota at the time. And a colleague of mine who is a Muslim political scientist, he and I, I think I've told you, we did this sort of dog and pony show.

We went around the state for South Dakota Public Radio giving a talk on what the basic issues were, because all of a sudden everyone was interested in the history of it all. And so I became the, you know, the expert on Judaism. He became the expert on Islam, even though neither one of us have either of those fields as our expertise. It was kind of funny. But people wanted to understand what the nature of it was. And, you know, a lot of the conflict in the region has very, very little to do with religion. It's not about that.

It's about land. it's about land that people see as being promised to them and they want their land and you know the Palestinians and these are I mean that's the problem you're in a region there where there are a lot of different people who claim the land is theirs and you know I was watching John Oliver the other night

and he was talking about what's going on and he said you know I don't really have any solution to it. He said, and this is the last voice that you want to hear that coming from because of the British accent, because the British, of course, you know, also responsible for screwing this all up to begin with. Right. You know, it's such a complex problem. Such a complex problem. And I don't know. I mean, I have a colleague here who's Israeli. She's our new Jewish studies professor. I had coffee with her last week. She's flying home. I think next week,

she's going to go home, I guess, for the Thanksgiving break. So she is going home. Her daughter is in the military. She's been called up. I don't know how you deal with that. How you cope with that. And not to not to mention, we haven't even talked about the, you know, the 240 hostages, who we know barely anything about at this point. We don't even know whether they're still alive. Yeah, it's like a,

I think David and Goliath on so many levels. You know, like it's just, it's so, it's on, it's, I can't help but look at that region, oh my God, it's, it's, it's just transformed, you know, it's, it's a different. And I just being, well, the interesting thing is that the area where Goliath was from the Philistines was part of what is for the present-day Gaza Strip was the

Philistines area. Yeah. A little further, a little further to the north, but the northern part of the Gaza Strip and the north was the, was the, was the Philistines settlement on that occurred. In a,

you know, you know, on a, on a, on a, on a level of extreme, possibility and positivity. Might this be the very thing that a new biblical moment can come from, like this moment of peace? Like, could this not be a point in time where things change forever?

Where instead of looking at these old problems of the past and a land that was promised to us, perhaps this is a flexion point where we're, hey, we're looking in a mirror. This is the mirror image. This group is the mirror image of this group. It's one. We're all one right. here. Like I can see on some level some sort of spiritual being emerging from the ashes of this

incredible travesty that's happened here. And there's so many scriptures that talk about that happening. Maybe maybe there is a moment of peace that is among us that we can't quite see yet. Is that too positive to think about? I don't know. I mean, I would hope that that's true. I think the problem is that there we live and and this is not new, but we live in a world in which there's a lot of hate. And a lot of, divisiveness, as you and I were talking about before we went on air, and a lot of groups that are highly polarized.

And as we said, you and I earlier talking off there, some leaders who either get off on that or who benefit from it. Yeah, both. And so that's, you know, I mean, Hamas is, you know, I mean, they were elected by the Palestinians to govern the area. Now, everybody says, well, they got what they, you know, well, the choices were really bad at the time. I mean, you know, it was not like they had great choices. And but Hamas has had as its chief tenant to kill Jews and the destruction of Israel.

That is what they're set on doing. And so, you know, on the other side, then the Israeli, say, well, how are we going to negotiate peace with them? They don't want peace. There is no solution there. And so, you know, part of it is getting, is the elimination,

and that word sounds too harsh, but somehow to quell the extreme hate that some people have for other people. I've never understood. what drove that.

That level of hate. I mean, it was funny because that first week when I was talking with my students right after the attacks, and I mentioned, you know, they said, well, who is Hamas? And I said, well, and I explained who they were. And I said, and their chief aim is the destruction of Israel. And one of my students said, so why does everybody hate Israel? And I said, well, if you got six months?

I mean, you know, there's a long history there. And so, you know, I think a lot of it is, um, is almost hereditary. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But there's something to be said about, you know, maybe I don't thoroughly understand hate, but it seems to me if you watch your parents murdered as a child that there's no way to incorporate that into the rest of your life and that manifest itself is hatred for generations to come.

That's on both sides. Yeah. How can there not be? You know, I think you're right. I just want to cry. Yeah, and I think that people who are able to, to reconcile themselves with that kind of trauma are incredible people. I don't know that I could.

Yeah. You know, I mean, it's incredibly admirable, but I also think it's fairly rare. I mean, it's the Hatfields and the McCoys. right that's really what it is right I mean you got the two sides who are fighting against each other and at some point it almost

seemed as if you know they were fighting against each other because that was just in their genes and it was just like we don't even know what we're fighting about we're Romeo and Juliet you know Martin used decapulus

back to you Shakespeare so oh the dark humor yeah I don't, on some level, I can't help but think that there's, there is a heart of gold about to emerge from this area, whether it's through literature or whether it's through a child, children being born seeing this. Sometimes being exposed to elements that you should never be exposed to gives you a rare glimpse into the world in which no one else can see. And it's those are the visionaries, those are the mystics, those are the people that have the ability to guide us out. out of the dark times and often they're born in the darkest times.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, you know, it, it makes me think about, you know, the young, the young, the young girl in Afghanistan, her name escapes me now, the one who was attacked on the bus, who became such a celebrity. Ariana. No, no. No. Oh, somebody listening. Yeah. I know. There you go. Thank you. Malala. Malala, who became a, you. know, a Pakistani activist after being attacked just for who she was. And, you know, I think that there are situations like that. And maybe that's what's ultimately going to save us. I don't know. I don't know.

It's, it's difficult. And that's why, you know, the rallies. Yeah. I get, I get the rallies. the rallies also sometimes disturb me because they seem to in some instances they seem to be simplistic

of course it's like it's not that easy you know ceasefire now sure great how are we going to do that the Israelis say they're not going to do it they want the hostages back the Hamas

says that they're they're not given the hostages back until this is a ceasefire. So there we are. Catch 22, right? So I, you know, so the people who rally for that, I mean, I understand the need to, to voice your, your thoughts. But I'm not sure how helpful that is. I mean, there was a rally last night in D.C. That apparently became rather violent at the Senate office building. And that was a ceasefire now rally.

I believe it was a pro-Palestinian rally. And then earlier on the week, there was a huge rally for Israel on the mall that was planned. That was on Tuesday, I believe. And the security in D.C. was unbelievable. and a colleague of mine who is a Twitter addict, or I should say the platform formerly known as Twitter or whatever the hell we're calling at least. She came up to see me at one point during the day,

and I said, so what have you heard? I said, I'm not turning CNN on. I don't want to see what's happening. And luckily it ended up being a fairly peaceful day. But those kinds of things are just incendiary. And, you know, when we had the rally here right afterwards at the Jewish Community Center on the Wednesday after the attack, it was packed, for one thing. I was really amazed. But it was funny because I walked into it and I was like, I don't think there are any police in Newport News who aren't here.

You know, who's policing the streets? It seemed like every Newport News cop was at the rally. you know, policing in the parking lot and they were there for protection, you know, which, you know, we all thanked them for it too, I mean, you know, for doing that. But it's just sad that that's what has to happen now. In order for there to be a discussion. Well, I mean, at the risk of, you know, of sounding like Rodney King, you know, why can't we all just get along, right?

I mean, you know, I mean, it's pretty simplistic statement. But, you know, you've got to wonder, why can't we? There's no money in it. There's no money in getting along. There's no money in peace. That's part of it. Yeah. Damn money in the capitalism.

Yeah. Everything driven by the buck. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was listening to CNN this morning in my car and on the way into campus. And they were talking about the visit yesterday. the Chinese president of Xi to

meet with Biden in San Francisco. And then I guess there was a big dinner last night that was, I don't know who sponsored it, but it was not a government thing for the Chinese president. And all of the big guns were there. Elon Musk, the president of FedEx. I mean, all of these, you know, it's just

it's a damn money. on a related side note what i find fascinating about these big dinners is always like the the little jabs they do like i remember when putton went over to see president g he brought him like a big pot of honey because president z hates to be called whitties he'd find like a big thing of honey yeah but then you know i saw when this is a while back when minister uh shinsenzo abe i i don't know if i'm pronouncing that yeah abe yep when he went to israel they they served him they serve him as soup in a shoe. We started thinking about the implications of that.

Like that's funny, but like, whoa, there's so much in there. Like, wow, what a statement this is. Like, there's so much that happened. And I guess this brings us back to imagery and imagination and conveying what is really happening and meaning. And that's something, too. If we bring it back to the ordeal by the labyrinth, we bring it back to the idea of Ignatius and the Jesuits

is imagery and imagination and meaning. Like I think there's a lot of meaning that we may not be getting in today's world. What do you think? Yeah, well, I think it's an inability for us to accurately and intelligently interpret symbolism. Yeah. You know, it's funny because I was just this morning teaching a class to our lifelong learning society, which is mostly retirees. and just finished a five-week bit with them on the Bible.

They wanted to do something on the Bible. And so today we talked about the Book of Revelation. And, I mean, you know, the symbolism is just all over the place, and it can be just about anything you want it to be. And so, you know, the last slide I put up was, you know, a picture of Steven Freud and it said sometimes a cigar is just a go. You know, but our real inability to understand. the power of symbols.

Yeah. And what they mean. And both both in a good way and a bad way, right? And it was funny because at the end of the class, they want me to teach another class in the spring. And I said, well, what do you want? You know, what would you like? And somebody said, how about a class on the Book of Revelation?

I said, hell no. I am not too much. Hell no. Absolutely not. That is not happening. because I mean you can read that book any way you want yeah um you know I mean that the the the the the the the the six six six six would be antichrist you know and I was saying that you know for for many years people said oh that was Hitler right I mean when I was in college it was Ronald

Reagan was the antichrist because Ronald Wilson Reagan was six letters six letters six letters six six six thick you know someone had come up with that so you know but as as Freud says you know sometimes Cigars, just a cigar. You know, you can't go nuts. You can. That's a problem. Yeah. People want to restrict it.

Stop going crazy. You can't help it. Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely true. It's fascinating to think about. In some ways, I think that that's what's going on in the world today is people are trying to fight for the meaning of symbols. You know, they look at the dome of the, like, what does it mean? What does this religious figure mean?

mean? What does this text mean? We're fighting about meaning. It's the song remains the same. And a lot of that is linked to to misunderstanding history. If we better understood the history, we'd better understand the meaning of these symbols that have persisted. You know, one of my students last week, we were looking at a model of the second temple. And, you know, the steps up into the temple, it was supposed to be seven. and then eight steps. And she said, why is it 15 steps? Well, it's 15 steps, supposedly, one interpretation,

because of the 15 songs of assent in the book of Psalms. You're supposed to, each step was supposed to be, you're supposed to recite a different one of those Psalms. Now, that's one interpretation of it. You know, I don't know if that's accurate, but, you know, historically, it's interesting to look at and to think about, you know, what's the historical significance of it.

of all of this. You know, the season coming up of Christmas, you know, I love to talk about this with students because, you know, none of this is biblical. None of this is even historical. I mean, you know, I mean, Jesus was not born in December. You know, it's just kind of funny to look back at it and to understand the way that that transformed then and to talk about how, well, it was an attempt to take the pagan calendar and kind of more. push it up with this new religion and not have people just react against it. So, you know, December 25th, the Feast of Saturnalia, the Feast of Saturn becomes Christmas, right? And a lot of the traditions that go along with that.

You know, I had a laugh. The other day, somebody sent me a cartoon about, oh, it was Thanksgiving. And it was a bunch of turkeys talking to each. other and and we're just horrified one of them saying, you know, and don't even, let's not even talk about what they're going to shove up your butt. And it just made me think of, you know, a bunch of evergreen trees out in the woods saying, you know, and then they're going to tear us down and drag us in their living room. Like, what the hell is this?

It's fun. Why is December even the 12th month? You know, like, or, you know, October is 10. Like, what is? Yeah. There's no problem. The mess with the Julian calendar. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah, I mean, the supposed, supposedly Jesus was born in March. At least that's, you know, the current, the current wisdom was that he was born in March. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, though. It is. Yeah, taxes.

I think it comes out of taxes, right? It's so funny to me Oh David I love talking to you my friend This is awesome Same here Same here We're back with you George

Well I know We're coming up on our hour here Yeah I know We can't have this long of a break This is this is what happens And we have too long of a break Yes

We'll do another one soon Okay If not in a week, maybe two weeks, I'll have to look at the calendar and get back to you. Yeah, well, according to the true history, Jesus' birthday is coming up very soon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? What are you excited about?

Yeah, my website is David A. Solomon, s-l-o-m-on.com. And you can find links to my publications and speaking stuff and podcast. that I've done and all kinds of stuff. My consulting for education. So you can check that out. What have I got coming up? My wife and I are finishing a book on Angels and Demons and Pop Culture, which I hope will be out next year.

I'm still promoting the Seven Deadly Sins book. In fact, I've got a book signing in a couple of weeks for it here in Virginia. And what I am excited about that's coming up is next semester. I'm going to teach my museum studies course. And the students are going to curate their own exhibit, which is always fun. And starting to put that together and get a sense of what that's going to look like. So it's always fun to plan that. Yeah.

And ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to this, whether it's today, tomorrow, in the future, please go and check out the links. Please check out Dr. David Solomon's, his blogs, his books, the book, The Seven Deadly Sins, change it changed my way that I saw the deadly sins and in some ways it helps me interact with them if that kind of makes sense. But more than that, I think today was a very wonderful episode. And the part that I really want people to understand is the way in which you are creatively teaching people. I think that's unique to you. And I haven't heard a lot of people doing it. So thank you for doing it. People who are interested. It's so true. You're pioneering in so many ways.

And I love it. And I wish more people will come and see what you're doing so that it can expand like the ripples of a stone thrown into a clear, calm body of water. Okay, I'm getting out of control. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for hanging out with us today. That's all we got. Hello.