TrueLife - Dr. Jessica Rochester - Attachment, Meaning, & The Search Self

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://www.revdrjessicarochester.com/Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Madrinha and President of Céu do Montréal, a Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) Church she founded in 1997 in Montréal, Canada.She is a transpersonal counselor, she trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Assagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof.She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve an Section 56 Exemption to import and serve the Santo DaimeSacrament (Ayahuasca).She is an ordained Interfaith Minister with a Doctorate in Divinity.From 1986 to 2018 she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice.She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery and Self-Care, Volume One and Two.She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being and personal transformation One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back

to the True Life podcast. I'm so excited today for those of you who have been paying attention and watching. We got an incredible guest, the one and only Dr. Jessica Rochester. She's the founder and Mahadrina of Santo Dime, Montreal. I could continue the introduction for a long period of time, but at this point, I almost feel like it's disrespectful

because I think everybody knows who you are. And sometimes I think the shorter the introduction, the more powerful the introduction. But that being said, I want to welcome you to the show and give you an opportunity to maybe fill in any blanks I didn't end the introduction. Well, thank you, George. It's always lovely to spend time with you.

And you're such a great host. You have some interesting questions. And because you do a wide diversity of interviews, you come at each session with a very open mind and an open heart. So it's always a pleasure. If anyone wants to know kind of more about what I do, then, you know, go to my website. And I did recently publish two books.

It's a volume one, volume two. They're guidebooks. They're called ayahuasca awakening. They are not necessarily aimed at, you know, it was kind of the publishers who said, got to put ayahuasca in the title. Yes, it is the sacrament that I work with for 27 years now. And yes, it's me who founded the first church here and brought the sacrament here and worked for 17 years with Health Canada to achieve the legal recognition and the rate to

important serve. But all that being said, it's the transpersonal world that has been, and my spiritual path that has been kind of my focus for the last 50 plus years. And all the different trainings that I've done in transpersonal psychology and the diverse academic background that I have, that has, you know, been all part of the journey. And so, you know, enough about that, because what we're bringing, I'm quite excited about talking about, with you, working with you today, because what we're going to talk about is to search for the real self. Now, what on earth is that? The real self, like, what kind of a question is that? What kind of a statement is that? What does it actually mean? Is that the journey that we're all on? The,

who am I? Why am I here? You know, is, is that what that is? So that's what we're going to be talking about today and and we'll see I might actually volunteer you to do a little section of a really well-known psychosynthesis exercise that's kind of a who am I exercise and anybody who wants and join in and go along or what have you is welcome to so where we're going to start with is beliefs what do we believe about who am I where do those beliefs come from And to do that, we can have to take a step back and say, well, fundamentally, okay, what do I believe about myself is also, what do I believe about reality in life in general? You know, they are so entangled and entwined that to start talking about them, we have to have an inclusive discussion whereby we can't separate the self out of reality. we can't do that.

And so we see that whatever we believe about ourselves is deeply entwined with what we believe about the nature of reality. Who am I? Coexist with, what is all this about? Where was I before I came here? What is consciousness? What is awareness? Never mind, where do we go to after this life is over, this particular life is over? It's like, is there a continuum?

If so, who's experiencing that? where were you George before you were in the George life? What were you George before you were in the George life? Okay, these are unanswerable questions, but we all have beliefs around it. And so that becomes a piece of the Who Am I? Is that piece? And that's really personal. Everybody needs to have their own reflections on that.

And then we have all those factors. Okay, so let's imagine that George has arrived. What day were you born, George? October 29th, 1975. Oh, the 70s. Wow. A good decade to land in. Yeah.

Hippie parents. So here we go. One of the factors that influenced the beliefs that you developed about yourself and life while you were beginning your journey in life. And we can say that there's layers to those things. So first of all, there's that family environment. But that doesn't exist in a vacuum. You know, the family environment is a story that began long before you were born. Long before you were born.

There was these parents, your parents, were adults, who were teenagers, who were children, who were babies, who were wherever they were before they came here. And all the things that influenced them play a role. and what they provided for you. It's sort of like making soup. You know, you start with the base and then you start adding stuff. And it either ends up cream of mushroom soup or it ends up with chicken, vegetable soup.

Many of what the heck you put in it? Okay. And so what are the factors? They're going to be the family one. Then it's going to be the social one. What social environment you are born into is going to play a role in what you believe? You know, you're born. in the townships just outside of Joburg,

then you're going to have a certain social identification about what life is about and what you come to believe about being yourself in life versus if you were born into a family who lived in the upper strata's of Hollywood. Okay, let's say. It's going to give you a very, those social settings are going to give you very different sets of experiences,

opportunities, and everything else. Then you're going to have your cultural environment. What culture you are raised in and exposed to. If your family is, are originally Italian immigrants, then guess what? They will have brought some of that, the flavor of that and kept it and integrated it into, with all the inherent cultural beliefs that go along with it, right? So you have cultural, you have family, you have social, okay? Then you have geographical stuff.

I'm sorry, you can't help it. You're born into a really dark northern, you know, country where you're on the tundra and you spend your life, you know, following the reindeer herds. It's going to be extremely different from you're born in the Amazon and you live in a hammock and find your fruit and the trees and pull the fish out of the water. So what you come to understand about yourself and in life and reality has all these different facts. actors, you know? And then you would add in all these other layers of influences education. What were you taught? Who was teaching you? What did they believe? What were they told they had to teach you, even if they didn't believe it? You know, it's really interesting. Do you have a couple of questions or should we just keep trucking on down that line? Yeah, I just have one or two.

When your eyebrows grow up, I know that when your eyebrows grow up, you got questions. Yeah. It sounds to me like the nature of relationships. Like this, how is the self, is the self a measurement of how we relate to the world around us? That's a good question. Are we able to make the distinction? And that's an important thing. What's mine?

Yes, yes. What's me and what's not me? Okay. And that goes for all the different layers of the cell. So we have the physical body with all of its sensations, pleasure, pain, hot, cold, you know, all those different sensations that we have that our brain recognizes all the little signals. So we know cold, put on our clothes, hot, take something. off, okay. Thirsty, drink something, hungry, eat something, tired, sleep. Okay. So the body has all these, its own way of being, okay? And it's a way of talking to us and letting us know what its basic

needs are. So we all have a body, right? We have all these different, you know, there's the physical and then there's the emotional, and then there's the intellectual, there's the creative, there's the spiritual. There's all these different parts to us. And that has a greater depth to the who am I? I am a spiritual being. I'm a creative being. I'm a physical being. I have a body. I'm an intellectual being. I have thoughts and opinions and ideas. I'm an emotional being. I have feelings. I get sad. I get angry. I get happy. I get frightened. I get jealous. All of these different things that we experience. And what's fascinating, is they all come and go. Everything comes and goes. Sleepy comes and goes. Hungry comes and goes.

Curious comes and goes. Angry comes and goes. Well, I hope it comes and goes. Those of you who are holding onto it, like some kind of treasure, okay, let me some pork. That's well sad. Every day, keeping it really shiny.

So I need to look at that. That's your mean identification. an angry person then what i say step back and take another look and a larger picture okay so then we come down to you know all these different identifications okay let's look at the classic ones in our culture and i'm talking about western civilization now not just canadian or hawaiian culture so western civilization is about doing and having doing and so you know i thought i I write about in my books that there's doing, having, and being. Those are the three main kind of states.

And we're really focused in our culture on doing and having. Go to a party, get introduced something. First question is, hi, I'm Sally, you're Fred. What do you do? Yeah, it's so true. What do you do? Okay. And so a big part of our identification is our doing this, our doing this, you know.

and that can become a really important part of our identification, but if it becomes over-focused, then that in itself can help us to lose our sense of wholeness. And so there's the doing. And you can see this in preteen and teenage kids. When they start to see the years click up, and first they're thrilled to be, I'm great five, I'm going to be great six,

and then I'm going to high school, and then oh my god i'm in high school they start hitting the formative you know their house how scary i think it's grade nine is i don't remember it was such a long time of course the grade 10 my kids are in their mid 40s so it's a long time even for my kids there but my grandchildren aren't there yet but you know that that year where you have to start deciding you know you're only like 14 15 years old and all of a sudden you have to start deciding your career path what am i going to do And how scary that is. And we need to look at, what are we putting such an emphasis on that?

Instead of allowing our children to explore life and give them permission to try this, like the buffet, try this. It may or may not fit. Do your best at it. That's what I always told my children, and I'm trying to teach my grandchildren. You don't like that particular class or course or thing. That's okay. Do your best, you know, or you don't like that teacher.

That's fine. But do your best because in the end, those marks follow you. They follow you. So if you've done your best, you feel okay about it. The teacher, you won't even remember to use you. Questions? I do. It seems to me that even an adult age, like this idea of,

and I don't know if this is the right term, but it seems that being degrades into the illusion of having, if that kind of makes sense. Like sometimes we actually have things, but that degrades into the illusion of appearing to have something. If you just look at modern society, it's like people bought a house and then they rented a house or people bought a car, then they leased a car.

And they went from having into the appearance of having. And it almost seems like a regression in a way. weird sort of way. And I think that happens with the self, too. When we put these labels on us, we are this thing. And then we degrade into the appearance of being that thing. Does that kind of make sense? Yes. The appearance, yeah, the, you know, this is a phrase that I use a lot, the appearance of it. Well put. Yeah. So we, this is, this is impression management. I'm right about that too. Impression management. Okay. And our society is deeply. driven by impression management.

So instead of, you know, and there's nothing wrong with, you know, renting. I mean, we all start off with renting before we can afford to buy it. And renting when we're not sure where we want to be, renting in transition. So everything has its moment in place. But, you know, I can't, I can't give the source for the, but anyway, there's a wonderful statement. If I come up with it, who said it. there's no problem with pretending as long as you're not pretending, you're not pretending.

I love it. You should write that down. Pretending is okay. You know, that's what we call. People can pay a lot of money for pretending. Absolutely. And there's no problem with pretending. As long as you're aware that you're putting it on, like your outfit to go to a wedding,

your outfit to go to a funeral, your outfit to go to whatever, okay, that you're putting on something to be for a reason that's valid. and that you can easily take it off. It's when we become Eleanor Rigby, you know, that Beatles song, who keeps her face in a jar by the door, okay? Who is it for? Okay, all the lowling people, you know, that famous song. And so when we're doing Eleanor Rigby, we need to know that it's something that we're just putting on,

that we're okay that we choose to put on, but that we can take it off and it's not who we are, The problem is when we think that's who we have to be. And when that kind of false self or that mask or that pretense becomes who we think others want us to be. So it becomes complex. Who am I? It gets tangled up with whom I supposed to be. Who do people want me to be?

Who do I need to be to make people accept me or love me or okay me? You know, all those layers of acceptance that we seek. And so that, you know, if we're willing to remove all those masks and layers and say, well, okay, what's the worst thing that can happen? Is people not, is, is, is the worst thing is, is it people not knowing who I am and only liking my false self? Is that better or worse than people knowing me who I really am and some of those? them don't like me. Which is the best situation here? What's the better situation?

I always think it's be, which is be yourself. You don't like everybody. So what is this silly nonsense that people think that everyone should like them? Why? They don't like everybody. All the years, nearly 40 years private practice. That would come up a lot, which is, you know, why do you care? You don't like everybody.

you don't give everybody your approval or you don't like everybody's beliefs or behaviors or actions. Why do you need everybody to like yours? So try being authentic. If I can just have another question that I thought of when you were talking. It seems to me that culture in the world, you speak a lot about tests, whether it's a spiritual test we're having or whether it's a test in a relationship. but it seems to me that society in our culture are constantly trying to put the individual into a mold. They're trying to put a label on them. And it's almost a test to be, it's almost a test to be your authentic self because it's really easy to become the label that your work wants you to be, to become the label that your school wants you to be, to become the label or this fit mold that culture wants you to be.

So do you see it as a test to become your authentic self or to find your real self? Is that part of a test or what do you think? Those are, yeah, those are tests. They're obstacles. Okay. They're kind of obstacles, you know. We can allow them to get in our way or we can just see it as something that's a challenge, this is a test that we can take on with as much wisdom and maybe patience.

And a sense of humor really helps. A sense of humor really helps. It does, you know. And especially as you get older, you really need to get that in your backpack, you know. don't want to let that fall behind because life can be pretty grim if you if you lose your sense of humor and take everything you know there's so many serious things that we need to give our attention to that anywhere we can lighten it up a little bit and bring a little bit of humor in the day is valuable okay so you're talking about identifications those that people put on us and and those that we take on

that we need to learn to shed. This would be saying all Canadians. Okay. Not all Canadians. Whatever it is, you were going to say, love maple syrup. Not all Canadians love. Okay, all Quebecers love maple syrup. That's another thing, right?

So all of those generalizations and those categorizations and all of those identities that get put on us, they rob each person of their brood. brilliant individualism, of their unique voice, of their unique creativity, you know, their ability to be themselves. And yes, let's say I'm Canadian and yes, I'm a woman and yes, I'm a mother and a sister and a daughter and all the different things that we can say and many other women are, you know. But we all have our uniqueness. So how do we hold those identifications that that's simply what they are?

losing our sense of real self, our real deep sense of individuality and our sense of self. And that ability to manifest that self in everyday life, because that's what it comes down to is the me that I am, is that manifesting in everyday life?

Or have I poured myself into the mold that my mother wanted me to be? I remember having a wonderful T-shirt. I wish I still had. it but I had it like 40 years ago so it got well worn and well worn out and it's something that went along something like you know I am not my mother I may have her voice and I may have some of her beliefs and you know so it will carry it on for a paragraph but I'm not my mother I'm me you know and so we can we can look at all the things that have contributed

you know the genetics and the biography and the education and the social setting and the cultural influences and the geographical ones and all these layers of influences that are contributed to who we are. But who are we? What are we? Who are we? And those becomes wonderfully. So what would it be like to let go of some of the identifications? What do you imagine? Can I take you on a little quick journey? Please. I would love it. Okay. So there's a really well-known psychosynthesis exercise. And it's about identifications. And it starts with a group of people. And you can be one of those group of people. So if you want to take this exercise, then go right ahead. Okay. And in the exercise, we're each given, I think it's seven pieces of five or seven

pieces, little pieces of paper. And on each of the pieces of paper, we have to write an identification. So I'm a Canadian. I'm a woman. You would be. I'm a man, I'm an American, right? And then you might say, I'm a dad, I'm a podcast host. I'm, you know, so you'd come up with seven identifications that felt real for you. And then you have a little set, and then you have to sort them in order of importance. And rate them as to which ones feel like the most important identification for you. Whatever, that's very personal.

Okay. So you got your little, you stick them in your back, tack, and off we go. Okay. And so we journey together. The little group of us, we journey together with our identifications, and we come to the first station. In the first station, we are told that we have to open our knapsacks, and we have to leave behind two identifications. To be able to continue the journey, we have to leave two behind. And so we take those few minutes, and we look through our little pieces of paper, and we resort them,

and that's really interesting, watch people rearrange. All of a sudden, what was the most important one? Maybe it's so so important. And then we have to choose two that we're going to leave. And we are reassured they're going to be safe here. They're well watched over. And on the return journey, we will be returning. We can take them back up if we want.

Okay? So they're carefully put on one side and we carry on our journey. We go through marvelous landscape and we come to station number two. In the second station, we have to do what? We have to leave behind three identifications. Okay. Okay. And that's a little spooky and scary, isn't it?

Okay, so we take a moment and we go through what we've got left. We're reassured that those identifications will be very carefully guarded. And when we come back on our return journey, we can pick them back up again. So we carry on and we're only down with a couple of identifications now. We come to another station and we're told, okay, you have to have. to choose one identification. You only take one going forward. Wow. So there's much sorting through those last couple of identifications decide which is the one identification you're going to take going forward. So clutching that one identification, whatever that is, okay, the last leg of

the journey to the next, the last station, at the last station you're told, the next part of the trip, you have to leave this identification. Here's this spaceship. You're going to go out into outer space. We cannot take anything with you. Nothing. If you want to get on it, you have to leave that behind. Okay? You're told it'll be well taken care of and you can pick it back up on your return. So those of us who are brave enough, you're brave enough, George, you're going to leave that last identification behind. We all get on the spaceship. We go out and down the space and what's that like? have no identifications, no responsibilities, no duties, nothing. We're just cosmos.

We're whatever we are now without all of that. So we hang out in the cosmos for a bit, and it's time to return. So we land at the station. Do we want to take that one identification back? You can choose. You don't have to. You decide you take it, you don't take it. You're going to the next station.

You have other identifications there. Do you want to take them back? Don't have to. You can if you want. You can change the order of importance if you want. So station by station, we're given the opportunity to take back those identifications, whatever they were. You're an accountant, you're a therapist, you're a deep-sea diver,

you're a grandmother, you're a grandfather, you're a worker, you're a lover, you're a friend, you're a... What if I did, you're a Canadian and you're a, you know, you're a New Zealander, whatever it is, you've put on those pieces of paper, you can take them back or you can let them go. At the last station, you've got your last few identifications. You take them or you don't take them. And then you return to your own home. Now, what's always fascinating in this exercise is how many people rearrange those identifications. how many people discover, right close to the end of the journey out, the last one.

They've forgotten identification that's actually the most important one. I never even wrote it down. You know, I am human. Whatever it is. You know? And there's many people who cry because they don't want to pick up some of those identifications that have been put on them. and carrying those identifications for so long that they think that that's who I am instead of seeing these are things that I do and have.

It's an interesting exercise. It's beautiful. It's a really powerful exercise. Yeah. So what did you find about yourself? Taking them down and taking them up. Is there anything you want to share about that? Yeah.

For me, and this is just all cognitively. I mean, I could imagine it being accompanying a sacrament, or I could imagine this exercise accompanying something that would just be, like I kind of got goosebumps just thinking about it. For me, it's, for me, family was the last one. And it was really hard for me to get on the spaceship because I felt as if I was leaving them behind. My responsibility as a provider, as a lover, as a husband, as a dad, it's all rolled into this thing I call family.

And I felt like part of me, was being ripped or like my daughter was trying to hang on to my sock as I was getting on the plane or something, you know, and it was sad to me. But knowing that everything would be taken care of gave me the courage to get on. And in a weird way, you could almost feel the weightlessness. You could almost feel the zero gravity. Yes. And even in the cognitive exercise, I was able to understand that these attachments or these, these particular, identities have this meaning that I have carried with me as well as those, like the meanings I carry with those attachments.

And maybe you pick it up and you change the meaning, but it's, there's some I don't want to pick up. You're getting it. It's the associative meaning that you add to it. In one of our earlier podcasts, we talked about meaning, associative meaning and, you know, existential meaning and transpersonal meaning. and this is associated meaning, the meaning that we give to these identifications. And, you know, that's the meaning and the belief that's going to come up and grab us by the throat when we try and let go with them.

Can't get out on the plate. I can't leave this on my mind. But you know what? Learning to detach actually will make you a better dad. It'll make you a better husband. It'll make you a better person. seeing that you are playing an important role in a continuum of everybody else's life, including yours.

And the more you are yourself and authentic in that, then the better you can manifest your higher self, the more you feel like I'm abandon everybody. Okay. I can't abandon anybody. So then that's the place, survival-driven. that we can come from rather than compassion, love, responsibility, respect, genuine caring, choosing.

I choose to love you. I choose to be a good dad. Not I have to be. That if I'm not this way, if I'm not this way and that way, then I'm not being a good dad. How about I'm just going to be my best self? And trust that moment by moment. if I'm being my best self or when I'm not being my best self,

I'm quick to clean up afterwards, you know, and take ownership of it because none of us can be our best self all the time because we're still human. So it's fascinating how powerful we attach to the meanings of our beliefs and those identifications and how we need to find them first. if we look at a lot of the search for the real self, a lot of it that's been happening in both of our countries. Certainly in Canada, you know about the truth and reconciliation,

everything that's happened in the United States and with people really trying to own their history and their ancestry and their beingness. So it's as if we have to, you know, who was it who said we have to find a self before we can transcend the self. We have to find an ego before we can transcend an ego. Okay, well, we have to do all of that too with these things.

We have to find those identities first and own them before we can actually transcend them. Does that make sense? Yeah. It seems slippery at times, though, the self. It's a little, you mean, it's hard to, it's hard to, like, what is the self? Yeah, yeah, it is. That's why Annie talk about it. about the self needs to be very open and flexible and make space for thinking and dialogue

because what is the self? You know, is it consciousness? Is it a being? Am I a spiritual being, experiencing life? That's a common kind of new age belief or modern belief. Am I a lost soul? You know, I don't quite believe that, but I mean, even though we can feel lost. on occasion. There's a distinction between occasionally I feel lost and I'm a lost soul. So, you know, there's many different beliefs all around the world in different cultures as to who am I. But in the end, aren't they just beliefs? And if so, do we get to choose the belief that feels right for us and let it evolve as we experience life?

Yeah. I've been First off I want everybody Just to see the book Because what we're talking about Is in this book And you can see I've got some dog ears

And some tags up there And you know As we were covering a bit of the self A meditation that I had had Was how do I become my better self And it seems like this exercise Of leaving Meaning

And attachments behind Is something that I'm working on and I can see it in my life. And I, what role do you think when I, when I said slippery, it seems to me that it's, you know, we had spoke about the kid that's in, becomes a teenager. And then the teenager becomes an adult and there's these labels and there's attachments. But throughout our life, like, we're always having these, these sort of rights of passage, even if they're not celebrated.

You become a father. Then your sense of self changes. You become a husband. You lose a child. you lose a loved one and then part of yourself changes. So is it, do you continue to use the same strategies for finding self even though you are changing as yourself? Does that make sense? Well, I'll tell you what I think you're asking, what I'm hearing.

You're asking if as we evolve and grow through each life cycle, through all seasons and passages that life brings, do we use, the same techniques or strategies to understand or bring meaning to our life. And so, well, yes, with the understanding that hopefully we're always adding new tools into the toolkit, okay, that we're always expanding, you know, it's, you know, a wonderful nod to you. A shout out to neuroscience and my colleagues and friends in that field. all of their wonderful contributions, you know, and all the work that's been done recently and being able to understand how thoughts work in the brain and how thoughts actually create

neural pathways, okay, to areas in the brain where we hold memories. And who could have thought that we could have done this, you know, 50 years ago, but that we can look at the brain and we can actually see, you know, those wonderful nature programs. You know, I met David Nattonboro. fan, huge one and watch everything he's ever done and all the reruns. And so the ones now where they can use drones, where they can go above the forest and they can see all the networks of paths where, you know, the elephants find their way down to the water hole and all these beautiful patterns that the creatures make in the forest of all their pathways where they track. And so wherever there's a waterhole or where there's a common food

source, which is waterhole food source, usually one of the same, right? Right. Lions are hungry, going to sit beside the waterhole. Eventually, creatures are going to come. There's dinner arriving. But when you see it from above and you see these pathways, okay, well, our brains doing that with our thoughts. It's like our thoughts, our mind wanders down to the waterhole.

Now, how fascinating is this? That if we, let's think about this. So if we have a set of beliefs about who we are, we have a set of beliefs about who we are, We have this very firm identification. I'm this. I'm this important this. Okay, let me get a very narcissistic identification while we're at it. Let's exaggerating.

I'm this really important fill in the blank person. Okay. And I've got this serious sixth lane highway neuro pathway to this story about me and the beliefs about me and all these things are important. guess what? That's just something that we've created. It doesn't actually even exist outside of our head. Isn't that brilliant? It doesn't exist outside of our head.

And if we were to stop that story, if we were to examine that story in that belief system, the same way when, you know, telescopes came in and they said, excuse me, folks in charge, I don't think that the sun goes around the earth. actually at the center of the universe. I think something different is happening here, quite different. And then you hit all the people who either chose to believe that or chose not to believe that.

And so a whole lot of belief systems, sorry, got changed. Well, it's the same thing here. You start changing your belief system. And all of a sudden, your thinking changes. And then your brain actually changes now to reflect the thinking. So instead of you having that six lane highway going to some old belief system that doesn't even exist about who am I, that gets blown up and shattered. That's an ego death, by the way. And then you have to decide, what am I going to believe now?

The world doesn't fly. Okay, do I really like this? Earth is round and what kind of a minor solar system at the edge of a galaxy? Actually, not so important. Okay, so take that down to the human thing. It's like, oh, I'm not some great, big, important person actually. I'm just me. And is that okay?

And how do I live with that? How do I bring better needing into my life? What does that look like? So isn't that fascinating that the beliefs that we have, the meanings that we attach to the beliefs, the meanings that we attach to these identifications that we've either adopted or they've been put on us or we've created, actually don't even exist.

Yeah. I mean, it's not fascinating. It means that we can actually change them if we want to. We can change how we relate to them. Okay, how we feel, you know, I'm a mom and now a grandmother. And so I can, I have that perspective. And I remember what feeling like a mom of a newborn and a toddler felt like, where everything is on high alert.

survival, you know, you're in like total protect, nourish, nurture mode. Okay. And then how you have to kind of loosen the grip and adjust and make space for their will to develop and their personality to develop. And you can't be clutching them to your breast anymore. It's like, put it away, Mom. I can back off. I can tie my shirt lease now. I'm free. So there's, you know, what mom means to us becomes something vastly different. We have to be willing to grow, to expand, to transform, whatever words you're comfortable with, adjust. And to let the meaning of that identification become something different.

And that's for everything. You know, a lot of people, you know, maybe not so much today. I don't know that it used to be, that there used to be this retirement crunch, you know, when people were so identified with their work, more so even men than women, and because we've usually had to do many different roles all at the same time, like a juggler, you know. And but men would go off and put in their 25 years and get their gold watch and their handshake. And then they'd sit at home going, I thought they wanted to play golf. What? Who am I? Now that I'm not that. So this really tight identification with doing and having. And so how do we live as people? And how do we, how do we, you know, where do we go with the who am I and what is my life about? What has meaning and importance in my life? You know, how do we, how do we do that now? and how do we do that with what's happening with nature

and how we're living our lifestyles. Once we figure out, okay, who am I, because we're very species-focused, species-centric, you know, humans above all things. Does it matter that there's only 500 Siberian tigers left? There's 8 billion people. I don't know, something's wrong there. Wow.

So I have a very weak, the species is going extinct, and yet it's not the human species. So there's something out of, totally out of balance with the human species and how we see ourselves. This is our biggest identification as a species. What do you believe, George, about being human? What do I believe about being human? Yeah. You said how you feel about being a dad and family. Well, I believe that I guess maybe this falls into the species centric category,

but I don't think you come into this world. I think you come out of it. And I think that the earth grows people like a tree grows apples. And when we start looking at other people, like it's difficult for me to say there's too many apples on the tree. You know, like, well, what about this other fruit? I don't know. I'm only an apple, you know, but I don't know that it's up to me. to decide that the fruit of the tiger or the fruit of the dung, the North African dung beetle is,

I don't know that I'm the steward of them. I would love to be and I want to be. I love them. But I think that there's a bigger plan in place and we can't know it. And when we talk about the self, it seems like us as self is expanding. What is that bigger plan then? Do you think that humans are, let's put it in perspective? Okay.

Mosquitoes. Let's choose a very, I don't like mosquitoes, but let's choose them. Okay, I'll try to give them a bit of importance because I don't like them so much. I mean, mosquitoes, you know, you're the size of Volkswagen. Okay. They're big mosquitoes. So, you know, they've been around for 30 million years. How long have humans been around?

Ooh, I think that's in contention. I don't know. 500,000 probably, if you look back at some of the different sort of... Modern humans, less. I mean, if you look at humans evolving from humanoids into what we call modern humans, less, we can look at sharks. They've been around 300 million years or something. Komodo dragons and turtles.

Lizards and turkiddle. And, you know, we could go back and back and look at species and say, you know, they were all here and there was always stuff happening. I mean, there was ice ages and there was volcanoes exploding and there was asteroids hitting the earth. And all kinds of stuff was going on. We have evidence that. That's basic science. But then what happened when humans came along? What kind of buggered it up?

Didn't we or we are? And so what do we do as a responsibility as humans? And how do we take that really strong identification? Because for me, that is kind of a key identification that we have, our species identification, that is so focused on us as a species to kind of the detriment of all other species. What would it be like if we had a greater sensitivity? So that whatever we do, whether it's farmland or building buildings

or, you know, how we extract things from the earth. If we did that in consideration of the rest of nature, if we put other species instead of that really tight identification that we have with our species, if we were to equalize it with all of creation, if we could see as many indigenous people believe that, you know, without nature, we're not going to survive. If we think that the birds and the fish and the land and everything is like secondary to us and we are like it, okay, we will not survive.

I mean, that's very, that they've been warning us. Indigenous people have been warning us and warning us and warning us. And we don't pay attention to this. And so this identification beyond I'm a woman, I'm a Canadian, and you're a dad, you're beyond all of these personal identifications, we have this penultimate one. human. And then what is our responsibility as human? Are we a guardian in this garden, Mother Nature Earth? And if so, what would that look like?

Would that mean embracing nature and doing every time we have an action that we're mindful of the consequences? Every time we create something, do we think, well, what about the wildlife there? how do we make sure that the wildlife has access to the water? How do we make sure that there's pathways under the highways so that the wildlife can continue their migration instead of getting all squashed on the 6thling highway? Because that's what happens, you know.

So how do we make sure that whatever we're doing to accommodate this species, the human species, takes into consideration the consequences on all the other species, including not just creatures, But the trees and the plants and all the other complex things, I mean, wouldn't that be wonderful? I mean, I think it would be wonderful if all human planning included consideration and consequences to nature and other species. If that was just part of our planning, let's hope we get there. Let's really hope we get there. So next step on meanings and beliefs and identifications and what does that do in personal relationships?

Let's bring it back down to humans again. What does that do in personal relationships, who I am and what I believe about me? Does this create harmony? It can. Yeah. But it could also create the opposite of it. It does. It's orthogonal in a weird sort of way. It's it it's it it does a dance.

Yeah, you well said, very well said. There's a dance and we have to decide what we're going to dance and how we're going to be in the dance with that. And we can either, you know, we can be the creators of harmony. We can do our best to create an opportunity for harmony or we can be antagonistic. We can clutch to our identification and make. our identification more important than somebody else's identification, which will always cause problems. We have to do this. Look at the history of me. I'm going to make the same. Okay. I'm more important than you are so I can go take your land. Right. I'm more important than you are so I can take

the money. I can take the people. I can take your goods. I can do this. I mean, that's all my, whatever it is I've got is more important than whatever you've got. Who I am is somehow more important than who you are. Where's that written? How did that get into that? How did that get into our psyche? And why did we believe that? How did that come into our psyche? And how did we come to believe that? But some people are more important than other people. survival and surplus, I think, are two of the things that cause people to be, that tell themselves stories. I think that may be the foundation of greed is, you know, I think the grain tower at Jericho is one of the oldest living, one of the oldest towers. And that is a symbol for surplus.

The first time we began to have a surplus, then other people began to get jealous. You know, when we moved away from the hunters and gatherers and into this world of surplus, It seems that we've changed the very foundation of who we are. Well, I think it goes further back. Yeah, probably. It's all a gee, okay, let's talk about King and Abel. That's really good. Yes.

He's the oldest brother, so he's going to get more than I am. So I'm going to pretend to be him because daddy's eyesight isn't very good these days. So, you know, it goes back, and it goes back, and it goes back, and isn't it just part of being human? and when we own our dark side and say, yes, as a human, we can be greedy, we can be jealous, we can be selfish, we can be aggressive, and that those are all hardwired into being human. But then what are we going to choose to do about that? Are those elements of humanity going to make the decisions? And we can see right now, around the world, that those elements are making decisions that have consequences on many, many people. And so what is being here about? What is being human?

We're right back to who am I? And why am I here? And how do I manage? How do I manage in everyday life with all of this weird stuff and the stuff that goes on about being human? And, okay, now I've decided I'm human, but what does being human mean? And how do I hold my humanity and transcend my humanity?

the civil life. How do I do that? What does that look like? What does that look like? So I want to share with you that at the end of every work, a work in the Santa Daini is a ritual where we did our sacrament, we sing, we pray, we meditate. And at the end of the work, after we've sung and prayed and meditated for four or five hours, maybe more, okay, when we're closing the work, We have specific prayers that we say to open a work and specific prayers that we say to close work. Because closing is really important. We close spiritually. We close the work.

We close. Everything needs to close. Okay. And so there's some things that I say to our congregation. And what it is about is that in the work, we have this ability to connect with the divine light. And I am certainly not saying that it is. Only the Santo Daini, we're only our sacrament. It is, you know, the divine light is available for everyone, everywhere all the time.

We just find our way of connecting with it, each of us. And each person has their own way, and that is respected and accepted. Okay? So, but in our works, there's something that I try to instill within people, because there's a huge focus in our culture on personal healing. And this is important. I don't want to in any way underestimate the importance and the necessity of personal healing. But it can't stop there.

That's the beginning. And what worries me is with this kind of overfocus on the personal self. And the, how can I put this? it's it's it's it within itself do you know what I'm saying does that make sense it does that make sense it does but maybe you could flesh it out a little bit more like that like if you could maybe drill down a little bit deeper okay so what I'm trying to say is as human beings we are essentially narcissistic yes we all have some narcissism and knowing that recognizing that and Trying to transform it is an important part of personal work.

And I'm not saying that everybody has narcissistic personality disorder. I'm not saying that at all. Okay. I'm saying that we all have some of the me first, me the most important me that. It's just, it's just it. And our culture tends to enforce that rather than help us transcend it. And so we all have to do that piece of transcending it and understanding that it is part of us. It's part of our ego.

It's part of what we, how we're wired. Okay. But then it's the beginning. So personal healing, working on the losses and the sins of omission and the sins of commission. The things that happened to us that we didn't want to happen to us, the things that we didn't receive that we wanted to receive. We all have to grieve that. Because no one's life, I never met anybody who didn't have some loss or some tragedy or some difficulty, some challenges to, overcome and some people's lives held more than others and were really deeper, more difficult

ones that require a lot of love and compassion and support to address and to overcome. Having said that, it's the beginning, not the end. And I'm a little kind of disappointed at the plethora of information that's coming out, particularly in kind of the anthogen's psychedelic focus, in which, that the high focus is on personal healing and healing and personal healing as a like the sum total of the experience, that that personal healing is it. And kind of once you've done that, you've kind of achieved everything. Whereas that's not, that's not the goal or the intention really on the spiritual path, certainly not on our spiritual path. And usually not on the spiritual

path of the kind of big traditions and spiritual traditions. You know, what that is is to become a channel for the light. It become, for each of us to get that personal healing so that it gets out of the way. Okay. So all of these identifications and these attachments and these beliefs that interfere and our obstacles to who we, the real self, the authentic self, that we can transcend them, leave them behind, relate to them differently, relate to them as part of us, but not all of us. We become more open to be a channel for the light. Let's just call it the divine light. Okay. So at the end of

each work, I invite people to take what they've learned from the divine light into their hearts and into their minds, not just for their own personal healing, but so that they can allow that light to channel through them and touch every area of their life so that it affects and illuminates how they work with, how they take care of their body, their mind, their soul, their finances, their work, their studies, their family, their friends, their community, and nature. And so we become the channel for the divine light, removing any obstacles, anything that is in the way. And so that that divine light simply illuminates. It just illuminates.

We don't have to make it do anything. We don't have to tell it to do anything or direct it to anything. All we have to do is let it shine through. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the personal healing, again, absolutely support and agree with. And, you know, a big chunk of my life and my work as a career has been devoted to supporting people through private practice, teaching, workshops, breathwork, 27 years of Santo Gaini, supporting people to do that with the goal of now become the light. Become a channel for the light.

let the light touch everything in your life all your decisions your actions your words your thoughts your words your actions meaning you'll be illuminated now i'm not suggesting this is easy to do it's just worth doing that's well said it's just really worth doing the end of the day it's there's a contentment that nothing else can give you. Then I did my best. I let the light shine through me. I let the light illuminate those words, that decision, those actions.

Do you think that maybe when we see what's happening and it sounds to me like being disappointed by some of the things that the people are doing, is it maybe that a lot of people are doing? is it maybe that a lot of people are just at the beginning stages of something? Like you've been around it for a long time and you've studied from some of the wisest people in the space and you've spent time not only in South America but around the world learning from different types of healers.

And it seems to me that in this space right now, there are a lot of people who are, for better or for worse, coming around to it for the first time. So it's almost like they're receiving the first teaching. And so maybe the first teaching for them is just trying to understand, you know, the personal healing. Maybe they have to get to the personal healing before they can understand how much the light can really affect them or how much it changes their meaning or their cell or. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, you have to begin where you're at. Yeah, you do. There are no shortcuts, you know.

And we can only work with what we've got. So yes, of course. You know, my disappointment is not so much in the individuals who are seeking. Right, right. To transform and to heal and to overcome, especially the ones who are looking to do a deeper work, who understand that, you know, they've tried all kinds of, maybe they've tried meditating and they've tried regular talk therapy

and they know that they need to get deeper into something and they're just looking for a way to do that, you know. My disappointment is that is in some of the teachers and the books that are being published in the teachers that they're not pointing down the line saying, you know, this is the first part of the journey. And, you know, this is the direction. This is the goal to be headed in. It's, you know, it's like there's, you know, when you talk about healers, that's a whole other conversation. I think we've, you know, we've rode around that one a few times is, you know, a lot of people call themselves healers, that makes me nervous because who's doing the healing?

To call for someone to call themselves a healer or to allow other people to call them a healer, means that they're taking responsibility for the healing that is done, rather than being the midwife and creating the space and the support to allow the transfer, transformation. I've heard that word to happen. And I think we've talked about healing and curing the last time. And right distinction between healing and curing. But it still makes me concerned how many people are calling themselves healers and chalmons and not and not and you know, on a regular basis, people contact me through, you know, either LinkedIn or my website or what have you. And and they reach out saying things like, you know, I see what you're doing and can we talk or something and then I get to know a bit of their story and I see that they're calling themselves a shaman and I ask them who they've initiated with and who they've apprenticed with and oh no, I had this, you know, kind of top of the amount of experience and I don't need teachers. Or I have a spiritual guide and I do what my spiritual guide tells me to do. Hmm. Okay. That's not the school I was in.

I was in very different schools on that. That's the beginning. You know, that's like having an illumination of I'm going to be a medical doctor. Guess what? You still have to go to a medical school. You still have to pay your dues. So when we talk about healers,

I'd much rather that we use a different language that respects the internal personal process of transformation. that all the people around us are doing is creating the space and using experience and skills and knowledge to support the process. Does that make sense, George? Yeah, it makes, you know, I can get an idea of a book by reading the back or the flap of the book when I look at it, but, you know, you don't understand the premise, the lessons, or the character arc unless you read the book. And then you sit down and maybe talk to some other people who have written that book.

Or maybe you get to talk to the author who wrote that book. And only then can you get pushed on or passed on to some other books before you begin to thoroughly understand the subject matter. And I can see that in a weird way, I think it aligns back to the species-centric idea of the human. Like it's the incentives that are put out in front of us that in a weird way, it's the incentives that keep us from reaching the way. the goal. The incentive becomes the goal instead of the, instead of being something that leads us on the path. Like if I look at medicine or if I look at people rushing to open centers to be the McDonald's of transformation. Oh, dear. That's a wonderful phrase. I know. Right. Did you just point that? That's brilliant. I borrowed it from somewhere else. I think that goes to Cole Butler. Cole Butler came up

with that one. So the McDonald's of transfer is that really good. Let's just cookie cutter shape it out. And, you know, that's what was happening with catamine centers. And, you know, they were just popping up like, you know, and what about training and what about all of these things? And that's what's making it very precarious in this movement right now. is this rapid growth and, you know, a tree, I use this all the time,

a tree never make more branches than its roots can support. And so every movement needs to make sure that it's rooted in something pretty solid. Otherwise, you know, the first strong wind that comes along is going to blow it over. And so. Let me ask you this, Dr. Jessica. It seems to me like there is a weird sort of crossroad. Like here, like how maybe all of this rapid growth is needed to help people. Is it an organic growth that's happening?

Or is it something that's being incentivized or maybe it's not an either or maybe it's a both and. Yes, yes, yes. It's all of the above. Okay. Okay. Back to 2,000 years ago and a great teacher. Okay.

A great consciousness teacher. Jesus is it's really a shame what happened to him, his teachings in his life. We won't even go to that road. That's a whole other conversation for a panel to address, okay, about great teachers and how human beings distort their teachings for their own purposes. But in the meantime, let's revisit Jesus for a moment, okay? And he said, the poor will always be among you. Guess what?

We have poor people today in every city, in every country. There are people who are poor, who need help, medical help, education help, housing help, social health. How is that possible? I don't know, but it is. It's just a fact. How did he know that 2,000 years ago? Because people who have consciousness can see that there are certain things that are always going to happen.

You can read about, they've been called all kinds of different things. You can see movements if you read about movements, charismatic movements, evangelical, movements, all these big movements that happened, whether it was somebody coming around, like the snake oil salesman who would say, I have this product and this product, there's everything. And basically it was what, olive oil or something, maybe not even good quality olive oil, but whatever it was with some herbs in it, you know, olive oil actually is good for you. Yeah, that's a pretty good snake oil, actually. Yeah, it is.

But you know what I'm saying? Okay, it doesn't have magical properties. Not the oil is healthy for you, but it does not have magical properties. And so through the history of the human species, you have accounts and writings about there are people who are ill, people who are troubled, people who are need help one way or another because of physical ailments or family problems or whatever it is. And you always have another group of people who purport to have the answers. and we can look in history and you can see this over, you have the soothsayers and the prophesizers, then you have the evangelicals,

and you have these think of those yoslavists, so you have people over and over and over again who are saying, you don't, you're not well, or you're unhappy, or you have problems, and here's the magical solution. And a little bit of that has been happening. It has been. Okay, spiritual materialism.

commercialization, proselytizing, making claims, a lot of which are beyond what research and science is saying. So this is just a human trend. It's not new. It's not new to psychedelics. So we have people desperate for something that will help them, genuinely, that will help them with whatever their angsts. is physical, emotional, mental. People who want a solution to their angst. And we have people who say, I have the solution to your angst. So we have a very plug-in-socket situation. Okay.

You have a problem? I have the solution. Now, unfortunately, that dynamic, of course, has gone into Enthugensis's psychedelics. And there are people, I'm not talking about the series people. I'm not talking about their research and this.

And I'm certainly not talking about the traditional indigenous people who've been working with, you know, sacred plants and substances for thousands of years who are very familiar with it and how it's been used and what they've been using it for. And they know that people still are ill and people still die and people still don't get along. And, you know, all those things still happen. Okay. And so what is this that's happening right now? we can understand. I can understand why governments are nervous and why they're keeping tight regulations.

I really understand that. I worked closely now with 23 years of Canada with that Office of Control services I get where they're coming from. And 99.9% of it I support. You know, they've got to weigh up both sides of the situation. And so, and then you have people who think, you know, in the same, 70s, they thought you just put LSD in the water and everybody will wake up. Okay. No, don't because a lot of people, not only will they not wake up, they will have a bad trip. And they will not be okay. Not everybody wants to wake up and not everybody wants to wake up that way. So people who want to, let's call it wake up, okay, may not want to wake up that way. And then let's talk about spiritual narcissism.

You know, my spiritual experience is far superior to yours. And therefore, you should take this substance, which woke me up. And I'm now awake. Okay. Therefore, my spiritual reality is more important, more evolved, kind of this spiritual evolved narcissism. I don't even sure what you call it anymore. That it's present and it's every.

where in which I'm spiritual evils, so I'm somehow superior to all of you people who are asleep. Okay. And here I can wake you up with this. You know, it's like that film Matrix. You want to wake up? What was it, the blue pill? I forget now there's a red pill and a blue pill. Right.

Okay, you want to wake up? Do you want to go back to sleep? How choose what color bill you want? Okay. And so they're playing that game. Excuse me, everyone. That was a movie. We can't play with people like that.

We can't make promises. Does any of this make sense? It does. It seems like narrative control to me. A big part of the incentive structure or a big part of, if we take it back to the beginning about, in the beginning we're given our parents, and we're given our beliefs.

There's a lot of belief building. going around the medicine industry right now. Yes. Absolutely. And who's shaping the conversation, right? Who's shaping the conversation and who's driving the conversation? And a lot of the focus is on the kind of pharmaceutical medical model. So there's a lot of that focus.

And then you have the, I don't know what to call it, kind of the hippie model. Like it's for everybody and everyone should do it when they want and how they want and, you know, total, total freedom and total decrim and everything else. Well, that really doesn't work for everybody. A lot of people need more help and support and they need and should understand the risks as much as the benefits. So it's, it's a special moment and who knows what's going to happen. It's a beautiful dance, like you said. And in some ways, I think the, there's parts of the dance that are fast and parts that are slow and there's parts of the dance that are at a really high end in Beverly Hills and there's parts of the dance that are at the backyard barbecue and and that's what I had meant by it seems that people are flocking to this new even though it's not new this this new freedom of being able to invite the spirit back into their life and it it does seem to seem scary. Maybe it's because spirit's been so far removed from our life that we're worried

about how people are going to be invigorated with the spirit. But it does seem like it, it's almost like a ceremonial dance, the way in which some Native Americans would invite the rain back to the land. It seems that we are doing the same thing by inviting the sac, by using the sacraments to invite spirit back into our life. But it's, it's, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. but I don't know who gets to say what's right and what's wrong. That's all part of the questions. Yeah. And, you know, the paper we published, Antigens and Psychedelics in Canada proposal for New Parenthood.

These are all the questions we asked. We did research for a year. We had over 20 contributors from every different, you know, profession and background. And those are the questions we asked. Who does it credentialing? What does it look like? who, you know, we wrote a code of ethics for non-ordinary state of consciousness and education. What does the education?

What should be included in how people are educated to work with this if they are not already apprenticed in traditional practices? For us, that was an immediate equivalency. If you've done a full proper apprenticeship in a traditional heritage tradition, then, you know, you've got your certificate. get. But if you're a, let's say, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a social worker, a chaplain, okay, then what more do you need to know to be able to work in non-ordinary states of consciousness? Because nothing in your training prepared you for that. Does that make sense? And so those were the

questions that we were asking. We do not believe that we were telling people what everyone has to do. we were just saying, here's some models to look at, here's some questions to ask, here's some things to be thinking about going forward. Consider doing this. Consider asking these questions. Consider including these things in your education. So the people will understand how non-ardinary states of consciousness don't exist in Western civilization other than those mediated by, you know, alcohol and...

sex drugs and rock and roll. You know, how do we support the process forward in a way that is intelligent and informed and that is inclusive? That was a big part of it, is all of a sudden these treatments, including enthogens and or psychedelics, are seemed to be only available for wealthy people. And what's that about? You know, are these treatments, are these substances, are these, you know, should they be available for everybody? And if so, what does that look like?

And so these are questions we are asked, we ask, we are asked, and we continue to ask, is how does this all get managed in a way that brings benefit, not to people who could just plunk down X number of dollars for payment session or X number of dollars for psilocybin session, personal therapy, and, you know, all these claims that are being made. Now, some of them are being finally validated through research about, let's say, depression and psilocybin, and certainly for end of life,

relative care. But, you know, how do we make that available for those who wish and who can't afford? Where does all that go to? And so these are just questions that need to be asked. And hopefully that people who hold wisdom and who take these things seriously will address these questions. and write about them. Just a week or so ago, I was interviewed by somebody in the field who was working on a paper that actually might have been just published.

And 2011 on psychedelics and donations and money. How money works with psychedelics and, you know, how those, how does all that work? And so he was asking me, you know, what do you do in your church? And so I laid out what we do do. You know, we have an annual membership fee for members, and that covers our fixed costs, our accountant, our corporate lawyer,

to insurance policies, you know, the administrative costs, we're part two federally incorporated company. And so we have pretty fixed, annual costs on a certain level. And then the actual works, our works, we have other fixed costs, rental, and then the church supplies and everything from flowers and the candles and the importation of our sacraments, stuff like that. And so we worked out very carefully, you know, an average donation that is needed, because

it's not an entrance fee, it's a donation for the works. And then members and associate members have a membership fee, which is $135, okay, You know, and then we have as manageable as we can make a suggested donation. And people are stunned. They say, gee, I just paid $1,500 for an ayahuasca retreat. And, you know, I'm coming to you and I'm making a donation of $65. And it's like, yeah, we're all volunteer. It's now 27 years, full-time volunteer position because we don't wear a jerk.

And we can't attach money to the sacred. We're just covering our costs, hopefully putting a little bit aside. Maybe someday we'll be able to, or unless we get some, you know, benefactor, we'll be able to buy or build our own building, which would be fabulous instead of renting. But then how do you line that up with, you know, so, you know, he's finding out in his research that people are being pressured while under the influence to make donations. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, yeah.

And at the end of when they're still vibrating to make donations, yeah. So we've set that up so we avoid that completely. Okay. So it's upon registration, you do all take care of business, and then you're just in the spiritual work, you know. But it's a really important piece of research to do is how is the money being handled and where's the money going? And how's it being managed?

How much is being given to charity? How much is being supporting people who can't afford the donation? How much is like each time we do our Brazil trip for the Fichio, we try to pay for two people to go on the trip. Okay, so our church supports two people to pay their tickets and to be able to go to participate in the Fichio. And so how are all these different setups being working, to be able to make sure that there's access and there's diversity and there's opportunity for people.

How is all that happening? And what does that look like and who's managing it? Wow. There's a lot of moving parts in these questions, you know, a lot of moving parts. You know, a lot of moving parts. And so, you know, we're back to identification. And again, if your identification is, I'm a healer. then where does that take you with if I'm doing the higher healer then probably the power and the money is going to come to me you know and all we have to do is look into you know look into all the different ethical challenges that have happened when um you know Jack cornfield's book after the ecstasy the laundry I think is you know everybody should read that book.

and he talks about all the challenges, you know, the usual suspects, you know, money, power, sex, substances. You're going to find the same problems over and over and over again. And what happens is when it happens on both sides and both sides are responsible for their part in it. Okay. If the Rumpet, the guru, the Padreino, the Madrino accepts the projection of the heart, higher self. In other words, the participants, the visitors, the congregation, the apprentice, whoever they are, they come in and they go, oh, great guru, okay, and you are the teacher, and you are the, you know, what have you. And they do that. And if the person accepts,

Stan Groff always used to say, please don't project your higher self onto me, because if I accept it, I have to be willing to accept your lower self-protection. So we're right back to, identifications where we have problems is where we allow ourselves to become blinded by an identification that we become attached to. I am the great healer. I am the great teacher. I am the great this. I am the great bad. Well, watch out, honey.

You're going to trip and fall. And that's where all those ethical problems come in. When we think that because we have whatever it is that we think we've got, those beliefs about who we we think we are because maybe other people have been telling us that's who we are. You know, and that doesn't take away from great teachers are great teachers. The same way great actor is a great actor, a great musician is a great musician. But it can't be your only identification. Does this make sense?

Yeah, it makes total sense. I love speaking with you. I feel like you provide a level of clarity that is missing today in a lot of conversations. and you're not afraid to, if I stop, you're not afraid to back up and tell me some things or the conversation's always good. And I feel when we come to the end of our talk, like we've only just begun talking, which is a sign of a great conversation. It's a sign of a great conversation.

And if you find, yeah, there's a lot more to talk about. So to be continued. To be continued. And so the takeaway that I hope people are going to have for today is that, in each lifetime, whatever it is that we receive, you know, that we have the right to look at all of it and ask, is this mine and what do I want to keep? What has value to me? And what do I want to bow to say, thank you. You've been teaching me something and let it go.

And that ability to transcend our need to be, you know, the impression of me. to be seen a certain way, to be received a certain way, that we can get comfortable in our own skin. If we don't feel at home within ourselves, then we're not going to feel at home anymore. We have to feel at home inside of ourselves. And then everywhere we go, we feel we're at home, because we're at home in here. And so I invite everyone to look at what you can keep, maybe reorder those identifications. implications and, you know, and say, okay, I am all of these different things, but they're not me. They are things that I do.

They're things that I have. They're things that I love or the things I feel a duty and responsibility towards. But in the end, I'm going to bring the best of myself to them. It's beautiful. I really love the exercise of getting, it's almost like standing naked, right? Stripping it all away. Stripping it all the way. That's psychosynthesis.

The psychosynthesis I trained in his work. It's the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioly, the Italian psychiatrist. He was a colleague of Freud and Jung's who expanded on their work even further. And he was under house arrest for many years during the Second World War because he was a political dissident. And what he said when he went under house arrest was, well, I guess it's going to be a good time for me to focus on my meditations and maybe do a little writing. And so I invite people to, you know, look into his work. I cover the basics of his work in my books and his model of the self and the parts of the self and the power. of the will because we have to engage our will, our willpower. I'm very disappointed, George. I don't

know if you are also, but, you know, when people say in recovery programs, it has nothing to do with willpower, whether it's like smoking cigarettes or something. And I'm stunned because, yes, it has absolutely everything to do with willpower. It's about learning how to activate our will, learning how to re-engage, how to connect with it, and then getting the support we need to help us do that. And then we can start integrating all those different parts of ourselves and those different identifications and make peace with them. Yeah, I agree.

The willpower, it's almost like being in touch with yourself is what allows you to access that willpower. Yes, exactly. Exactly, you've got it. The more I peel away the false selves, the more I integrate the parts of me that are parts of me, that aren't false beliefs and false survival roles that I've developed. Okay, but the more I transform that and understand that and let it go,

then the more my will is activated, the more my whole chakra line can really open. and be illuminated and kind of work in the way it's meant to work, grounded, you know, open and and will, not willful or will list, will then. Okay. Anyway, always a joy to speak with you. Thank you so much for inviting me back on the show. It's always a pleasure. Those of you who are interested, you can go to my website.

www.R-A-V-D-R-E-R-E-R-Gessica-R-Laworkcase.com. You'll find my books. You'll find lots of videos and audios if you're interested in what we've been talking about today. And I would encourage everybody to go to her website. All the links will be in the show notes. But I think for those who are listening, you're beginning, if you've watched this video or watch some of the previous ones, you're really beginning to see. of what Dr. Jessica is capable of.

And, but it's almost like, I don't know, it's a clarity and it is a beauty. And the book is filled with poetry and imagery. And it's unlike any other book I've really read before. When you get them together, it's a real course in self and self-mastery. And I'm nowhere near self-mastery. I am still self-discovery, but there's so much good information in there. And one thing I like, too, is I can turn to whatever chapter I want. If something's bothering me, I can be like, let me flip over here and turn to this part of sense of self or, you know, let me figure out this thing that's been bothering me.

So it's something that you can go back to. It's really well done. Oh, thank you so much. There's volume one, volume two. And they are guide books. They were written this guide books so that you can pick them up and put them down. This is not a Stephen King novel or a romantic beach novel. Right, right.

And you can pick them up and put them down and, and, you can pick them up and put them down and, and, and, Volume 2, it's all about self-care and about the body and about the mind and about all the different things that are important parts of our lives and how to find balance with all of it. And so they're intended as guidebooks, reference books, if you wish. And I hope that they help illuminate people on their path and become, you know, something that's in their knapsack that they can pull out and use to help them to go forward when they need it. It is. I know we're up against the time, but I just want to say to people, in the world of the McDonald's of transformation, there are some people like Dr. Jessica who have spent time and are a direct bridge to some of the masters that came before us. And if you read the books, if you listen to her, you know, I think that you will begin to see the wisdom with which she's teaching. And it would be in the best interest of most people who are new to this space to understand there's a little. lineage, that there's a place where people learned and that if you can access that, it'll

really give you a better understanding of how the medicine can work. And so I just wanted to put that out there as well. Thank you so much. Always pleasure. Okay. Well, I love it. Thank you so much for your time. And I will let you go and we will be back again the first Tuesday of every month.

Ladies and gentlemen, check out her books, check out her page and reach out to her. and thank you for spending time with her and I on the podcast today. That's all we got. Aloha.