TrueLife - Dr. Jessica Rochester - Guiding the Psyche: Navigating Vulnerability in Entheogenic Spaces

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://www.revdrjessicarochester.com/Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Madrinha and President of Céu do Montréal, a Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) Church she founded in 1997 in Montréal, Canada.She is a transpersonal counselor, she trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Assagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof.She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve an Section 56 Exemption to import and serve the Santo DaimeSacrament (Ayahuasca).She is an ordained Interfaith Minister with a Doctorate in Divinity.From 1986 to 2018 she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice.She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery and Self-Care, Volume One and Two.She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being and personal transformation One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a wonderful edition of the True Life podcast. I hope whether you are in a winter wonderland or you happen to find yourself where the sun is shining and the birds are singing and the wind is at your back. Regardless of where you are, I hope you realize that you have some gifts around you and you can bathe in there warm.

I have an incredible show for you today with the one and only Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester. She is the madrina and president of the Suda Montreal, a Santo Dimei, Ayahuasca Church. She founded in 1997 in Montreal, Canada. She's a transpersonal counselor, trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioli, and with Dr. Stanislav Graf. She worked with Health Canada from 2000 to 2017 to achieve a Section 56 exemption to import and serve the Santo Diamese sacrament. She's an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity.

From 1986 to 2018, she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice. She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening, a guide to self-discovery, self-care, volume one, and Volume 2. She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary, states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being, and personal transformation. She's on a mission to inspire and empower those who seek the adventure of self-discovery, those who hope to awaken consciousness, to rediscover authenticity, to find meaning in everyday life, and cultivate deep connections with oneself and others and with nature. Dr. Jessica,

we are so thankful you're here today. I hope you're doing well. Thank you for having me. It's always a joy to be on your show. We wander around on so many wonderful topics. I hope it's interesting for the listening public. And today we agreed to talk about some interesting things and things that only I find a few people are talking about. And so I'll give a share it to them in a moment. So I want to talk about vulnerability. Okay. And how it's really an issue that has to be addressed for people who are working in non-ordinary states of consciousness. on both sides for the participant and for the practitioner. Okay, so I'm not going to, I'm just going to put that umbrella over it.

So that can be inclusive of ritual leaders. It can be inclusive of therapeutic and research use, clinical use. Okay, so it's inclusive that for participants, whether it's in a congregation or research study, and for the practitioner, whether it is an elder or an elder, a senior in a ritual of a heritage tradition or religious tradition or whether it is a researcher or practitioner, clinician in a clinic. We need to just kind of have a little look at vulnerabilities on both sides and understanding where does that take everybody to? What guidelines are needed for individuals and teachers and guides. And so we've talked a lot about ethics. And, and

And kind of what we haven't talked about so much is kind of two pieces of that. You know, I've been tossing out ethic codes. People are interested. Go to my website. Go to our church website. You know, go to the paper we published, NPAGEN's Psychedelics in Canada proposal for a new paradigm. We drafted up a suggested code of ethics for people who are working in the field. So there's, you know, at this point, there's lots of good information around, you know, ethics.

and how to conduct yourself and what kind of guidelines. But vulnerability and what it means in the non-ordinary state of consciousness, because vulnerability is super heightened. You know, anybody going into a situation, whether it's a yoga class or, you know, an ayahuasca ceremony or a Santo Darnie Church, whatever, there's going to be a certain level of vulnerability because I'm opening myself up in a community or in a public forum And, you know, what is that for me and how does the practitioner, how does all that vulnerability get managed?

And what's the responsibility of the participant and what's the responsibility of the practitioner? So, you know, there's one thing between, you know, going into kind of starting a new yoke class, there's another going into a new therapist's office, there's all these different levels of vulnerability. And the more the practitioner understands that a code of ethics and ethical conduct is there to protect them as much as it is to protect the participants. Okay? And they themselves keeping healthy boundaries and understanding that they have their own vulnerabilities. And again, you know, I'm sure I've shouted her out again, but Kylie A Taylor's book, The Ethics of, Karen, she just does a spectacular job of addressing caregivers' vulnerabilities.

And so I encourage all the listeners, please, you know, if you're working in the field, understand that your own vulnerabilities are going to become heightened as much as the person taking the substance. There is, those of you who work in the field are going to understand what I'm talking about. You don't have to take the substance to kind of enter into the field. Back in the 70s, we used to call it a contact toy. That's an old firm. I don't think people would use it anymore. But, you know, it actually happens.

It's a real thing, okay, that we used to talk about and laugh about in the 70s, in which you would be in the presence of somebody who would be in an altered state. And something about your own state would become affected or influenced by that person being in that state. And so this is something that I don't see it anywhere. being talked about, you know, are people understanding that the vulnerability increases on both sides, the sensibilities, the sensitivities to smell all the senses, okay, are going to be heightened. Our unconscious biases are going to be, you know, vibrating at a different level. Let's put it that way. And then there comes suggestibility. So before we start talking about

suggestibility in an non-ordinary state. Do you have any comments, questions about that state of vulnerability that is achieved on both sides in working in non-ardinary states of consciousness? I do. I'm curious about it almost sounds like we're speaking upon the relationships to and fro for vulnerability. When you come into contact with somebody, how do you manage that relationship with them? Because your relationship with that person is different.

your relationship with their vulnerability, isn't it? Well, yes. I mean, everybody who gets into a romantic relationship and falls in love understands vulnerability. Okay, the first way, you know, the boundaries collapse and the love. And the first thing that happens is we feel really directly vulnerable, don't we? Yeah. I mean, even if we're practiced romantics, is that such a thing?

But, you know, even if we've been in love with a time or two before, it still catches us unawares and how deeply, you know, we're revealing ourselves and how vulnerable that feels. So this gets heightened in the non-ordinary state of consciousness. And, you know, as you say, what's the relationship? Well, if you have, let's say, let's use the example of a clinician who's working with maybe, you know, a psychedelic and DMA. look at all the ones that are now being licensed in certain areas, psilocybin or MDMA research projects and for post-traumatic stress disorder and ketamine and there's various projects and clinical settings in which these non-ordinary states

of consciousness are being achieved through the use of substances. And that's all fine and good. And the research is indicating that this is beneficial and, you know, more researches, the better. at the same time is who's talking about those vulnerability on both sides. And how do we talk about that? Is that part of the preparation? You know, for me, what seems to be a really important part is, you know, the practitioner can't be.

I don't know. This is like new territory, but I don't think the practitioner can be sitting there saying to the prospective person who's going to be in the non-argarious state. You know, I feel a little vulnerable when you're in that non-argy state. So here's the case for elders, mentoring, support groups, colleagues. You know, that's really important in everyday life. But in non-ordinary states, it becomes even more important to have a community of senior team, elders, colleague. You know, Stan Groff, when he was doing his work, you know, he made sure that everyone on his team, you know, that they had, you know, like decompression.

sessions okay and in my when I was training with him and then staffing with him and Jack Corfield in the treats it it the team got together at the end of the day and we discussed issues that came up for us that we weren't sure if we handled them well you know and this wasn't just part of the training this was part of the ongoing important dialogue that should be happening is that we need to be whether, you know, certainly the practitioners need to have that support system of colleagues, a team to be able to explore, you know, what's coming up for me and and how I handle the situation and, you know, going forward.

Those kind of conversations, I think, are essential. What do you think? Yeah. I don't have the experience in altered states of consciousness. in a practice with anybody. I mean, I have explored some interesting states and I have journeyed together with people that I care about. I'm not, like, I don't feel qualified to do it.

On some level, it scares me to think that if I find myself in a position where I'm unsure of something and I try to help someone in another direction, you know, the same way, if you and I are in a boat and we're going to a destination, but if you pick one course to the, course structure to the right, you could end up in a completely different destination. And I've been, yeah, I've been there on myself.

I'm like, how did I get here? I don't, you know, maybe you could, maybe you could share a story about being vulnerable and being in a position where it's uncharted territories. Yeah, uncharted territory. Well, I've got a few interesting stories. I'm not sure if they fit 100%, but they're the ones that pop up into mine. Okay, so here for me is an example of, you know, vulnerability on the part of the more the participant, okay, and, you know, being who I am and certain trainings and life experiences and being somewhat senior in the work that I do, thank God, I had enough sensibilities to be able to look at a situation and say, wow, okay, you know.

So here, I'll unfold it for you in the story. So here's the story. I had been in the early days of my participation and following the tradition of the Santo Daini, I and our growing center had been connected to a number of different churches, the original one in Nathia and one of the main branches in the Santo Daini at the time, and another church that was in Rio de Janeiro, who led by a very charismatic individual who had started traveling through a United States and Canada. And I had some concerns had been, I had some serious concerns as, you know, I was unfamiliar in the beginning with the culture, unfamiliar

with the language. And so there's a lot of things that you miss. And that is the first vulnerability. Okay. The first vulnerability for the practitioner, for the you know, the person, the participant is if you don't know the language and you don't know the culture. Okay. And so this is a big part of what has to be an important part of the conversation with people who are doing all of this traveling to South America to participate in a lot of different things or Mexico, Central America.

And so as I started to understand things and speak more to people and I started to realize that there was some, there was some what I considered to be ethical challenges there. and I started to find ways to address them. And so I wrote in Code of Ethics based on Jack Cornfield's book. This is in the year 2000. And I think this book was published in 1999, maybe something like that. And so I was ecstatic, wrote up a code of ethics, you know, took it to this elder. He kind of started reading it, held it like this, and handed it back to me.

He says, maybe your government needs this, but I don't. And I went, hmm, problem. I thanked him, put it on one side. Shortly thereafter, he's traveling, and I'm invited to go down to, you know, to visit. I won't mention where in the United States, but it was supposed to be this big work. And I kind of heard Tell that he was developing

some new kind of mediumship ways of working. And so my mediumship opened decades ago. People who have you've read my books, I tell the story of how that started to open. And so I've had wonderful teachers. I've had the gift of working with great spiritual guides. And, you know, I'm still in my journey and consider myself to still be an apprentice, even though I'm considered kind of a teacher.

I'm really clear that this is something you keep learning until your last breath and maybe get it, you know, the next step into the next lifetime. And so he's kind of developing a new kind of mediumship kind of sampegamy worker. I think, okay, this would be interesting. So off I go and the work opens. And he starts doing some things that I had never seen before in the sampathami, which I was sure wasn't actually at all part of the samba dining. And hauling people up to the front and cracking.

them open on a medium ship level and I'm looking askance of this thinking what is this really about so I go inside I pray I ask me guides my guide my guide said one main guide says to me stay in your place because I'm thinking I'd like to get a link that you don't leave sometimes quite a you don't wait till the end of the work and if you have a thing you deal with it right and so I'm sitting thinking I'm not ever going to be in another thing like this. This is not, this is, there's something really off here, okay? He's opening, he's opening doors in the astral to dark realms. I mean, this is not the Santa Dining, okay? It is not the sense of dining. And so I'm sitting there and I'm in my place, I'm sitting actually at the

altar because I'm considered senior in the North American scheme of things. So I'm sitting there and having this conversation with my guide saying, get me out of here. Please get me out of here. Can't just get me out of here. And so basically my advice says to me, stay in your place, stay firm, sing and pray, close all your doors. Don't let any of this affect you. And don't ever do this again. Okay.

Don't ever do this again. You will not be in this man's presence again. You will not participate in this again. I'm going, right. Cut my orders. Slat it out until the end of the word. And that was it because, you know, I want to say a little bit of the out mediumship, as I understand it and what is not permitted in our church and which is not committed usually in the main, you know, traditional Santo Dhani churches. And I call the micro in the bucks.

You don't find anybody this oral tradition. So I've codified a lot of things. So in our church, this is the rules of the Salaw, the Salaw. is the sanctuary, okay? It's called the Salau. And this is the rules of the Salau on mediumship. Okay, number one, no examining and staring into people's space. Okay, this is a really well-known one in the Santal Damien. You don't sit in a work of stare into people, okay? You don't stare. You close your eyes, you go inside, you're there to do your own personal work. Okay, so no staring into people's space. And no touching people without permission. This is very common in the Santadai.

and with intentions other than what is needed for their safety and well-being or by their request. Common guidelines in the sense of them. So people go into what we call the healing area and they need to lie down. If they ask, please hold my hand or please, you know, something. Okay, then the guardian, called the guardian on duty, we'll do what they can to support. But we don't go touching people when it says for their own safety or well-be. Looks like you're about to fall off your chair. Guess what?

You're probably going to get touched. Okay. Somebody's going to come and say, come to lie down, okay? Or they're catching you as you're falling. We really ask people if you feel a little dizzy, go lie down. Don't wait until you're falling off your chair. Okay. So third thing, doing psychic readings.

That is telling people anything about what was is seen in their space. So in other words, no staring into people's face. No reading, there are no reading, their past lives, none of this stuff, okay? such as, and here's the real key, is the people who feel that I see darkness, I see your past lives, I see you have a dark being, all of this. This is a thing that is happening. Okay, it's a thing that is happening. It may be part of some people's belief systems, and that's okay, if it's part of your belief system. Okay, but don't bring that in to places where people are vulnerable.

here the suggestibility is incredibly sensitive. So no psychic readings. You're not allowed in our center, in our church. You're not allowed to go and say after work, oh, by the way, I see you have a dark bee and you have to this, but uh-uh, go somewhere else. Claims of being a healer, this is also something that is happening. This is, you know, and in part, you know,

what we're hearing about now is the people who are self-aclaimed, You know that recently I wrote a number of posts and about, please don't call yourself a healer and then isn't why. And the challenge is to people who are self-aclaimed. You know, kind of the main one being is that it's so easy to fall in those traps of kind of thought forms and narcissistic bubbles. And the people who are self-aclaimed often operating alone, they don't need any supervision, they don't need any training, they don't need any training, they don't. need anything they got it all you know God spoke to them and and that's a problem because we all need we all need colleagues and teamwork and support work to be able to help keep us steady on the path because we're human you know so no psychic readings

no claims of being a healer or being a medium that can heal remove resolve things that they claim to see or read in someone's aura or psychics space. Now this is vastly different what's happening in our culture from the true churindera, the healers who are apprenticed and trained in their field the same way as a psychiatrist, a medical doctor, a dentist and accountant would be, and who studied their whole life with certain gifts, where they are in their sacred to hero that people knowingly go to them and knowingly ask for them help. So this is a level of consent. I know that you're known as a current era. I know that you work with certain tools the same way going to the dentist. I know

you're going to put something in that. Okay. So there's a level of consent which is vastly different from what's happening here where self-acclained healers or people in positions where they're working with vulnerabilities. All of a sudden think that they have some kind of healing power or magical powers to do things to people. And unless you really have the apprenticeship and training to work with that level of mediumship, then that becomes a real danger to everybody's vulnerability. And the thing that I always remind people who are kind of doing that is, have you considered liability? Do you have insurance that if you tell somebody that they're possessed or they have dark beings

and they're really unhappy or they have, you know, some paying the psychological react to this, and they're unhappy, and they sue you, do you have insurance? And some people are taken by surprise because it's never occurred to them. The liability could be an issue. And so this is a real vulnerability on the part of practitioners.

Is they need to sit down and look at, what's my liability here and what I'm doing and how I'm conducting myself and the care that I'm giving on the substance that I'm serving to others. what is my level of personal liability or you know in the place of the clinic is that been addressed and is it a conversation do you have that thoughtful look on your face it usually means that you have a question I'm rattling on here it's good the the question that I have in my mind

is that there's a there's a similarity between heightened states of awareness and intoxication And intoxication seems to be something that the power does that certain intoxicants do. And they make us act in a way that is irresponsible. And that relationship to vulnerability. Maybe you could speak about the, I guess the question is the relationship to intoxicants. Like it sounds like that's what it is in some levels. Well, you know, alcohol creates or any intoxicant creates, you know, every state of consciousness.

You know, they're all on the spectrum. Now, some, you're using Lourden Toxicon, that's fine. Certain lower our consciousness. Right. They lower our inhibitions. They lower our, you know, kind of self, you know, our ability to connect with inner wisdom and self-awareness seems to like really be dialed down with alcohol. And that's where it becomes a problem because people's vulnerabilities, they can be. taking advantage of very much so and when they're under when they're inebriated and it's not vastly

different i mean the state of consciousness in which a person who is drunk is in is vastly different from the state of consciousness somebody who has is in a santhodimy ritual or somebody who's in taking the mdMA in a sanctioned licensed setting you know um so there you're going to have the setting and the training and the appropriateness by which to guide the person versus getting drunk in a bar and God knows what happens to you, you know, you fall down and break a leg or somebody drop something in your drink and the next thing you know, you're, you know, got problems. So, but they're all non-ordinary states of consciousness. You're absolutely correct. But some of those states, they all have a great degree of vulnerability, but some of them have more consciousness and some of them have

less consciousness. It seems to me the reason. It does. On a further, if I were to pull on that string a little bit more, it seems that your relationship to authority is the problem when you are not in, maybe if you don't have the lived experience, you know, maybe that's the difference is your inability to configure your ability, an individual's ability to confuse. use power and authority with someone that's vulnerable.

That's what it seems to be like. Excellent. Excellent. Very good. Go start. Because, yes, power, authority, and vulnerability are all tied in together. Okay. Anybody who takes a position of authority automatically, you know,

and that's where codes of ethics come in because the doctor, the dentist, the accountant, the lawyer, the therapist, okay? you know, the Madrina and the church, there's an authority there that gives you a power, and it has to be held at the point. And, you know, all of these vulnerabilities that we have on both sides, you know, the needs of the practitioner to be the healer, to be the one who's bringing about all of these wonderful reactions and healing. You know, you have to take a good look at yourself and ask yourself, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this?

And who am I doing it for? And what are my vulnerabilities? And how am I managing those in the face of all of this? And those are questions for both sides for the participant. Why am I here? Why am I doing this? what are my intentions around it? Now, we have two other points in our rules of this law and mediumship,

which is not diagnosing or interpreting people's spiritual experiences. It's so easy to do that. You know, in my position, and I can point people in, you know, try reading this book, try looking at that, try considering this. you know, except for, you know, very clear mediumship openings in which certain beings are now, you know, certain things are happening that it's really obvious that, you know, they need a certain direction in a certain way. And the other thing is, you know, touching any personal objects, either on the altar or the side table,

is people don't understand that these things are really, you know, I mean, some people go into other people's houses, start touching everything, you know, and it's depends on whose house you're in. Don't know. It depends on his house you're in. That, and especially in these heightened states, you know, we've had people who kind of become very like two-year-old childlike and they want to go run around the room and touch everything. And people and things and people's personal stuff and so there's necessity to have healthy boundaries around and everything.

And so, you know, we look at vulnerabilities and, you know, we're going to talk a little bit more about suggestibility. How in the non-ordinary state of consciousness, when we are vulnerable, how suggestibility is heightened to. How whatever we are, which is why I'm going to just speak for the Santagin, there's no talking. Not allowed to talk in a world. No talking. It's one of the first silence is one of the first rules of the Salah. silence. And no talking unless it's absolutely necessary.

And so if in what's called the chain of command, if there's a direction that needs to be given, it's as simple as possible. You know, if the leader of the work has a few guidelines to give or a few teachings to offer, it's just that. There's no conversations. There's no talking.

You don't go and sit with your body in the healing area and strike up a conversation. You know, So there's no talking. Everything is in silence. Everything is, and this reduces the amount of personality engagement and invitation for projections and transplants and camera transplants that can happen so easily in the non-ardinary state. Did you need me to break that down a little bit more?

Yeah, I think I got a little bit of it. Like, it's on some level. Tell me what you understand. So then I can gauge what others might understand. It seems to me in a suggestive state or in the heightened states of awareness, especially in a ceremonial container, that everything you do in there has the ability to help you redefine the reality in which you live. And so whether it's an object, a word, a stare, any sort of action can have profound,

like the pond into the ripple water. Like it radiates outward. And it can have incredible changes. Is that one par? Yes. Yes, you've got it. And so this is why great care is given to what we wear and how the salaw is set and what images are in the room,

what is said, the hymns we sing, the prayers we say, the teachings that are offered, that everything is done really carefully because we all understand that everybody's in this heightened state And the suggestibility is really high. And so that's where anybody working in the field should have a deep understanding about that about suggestibility. And again, here's the people who are being trained to work in psychedelics and amphiogens, where, you know, I'm hoping that's an important part of their training and their education.

and that kind of a colleague support group is an important part of how they're doing the work and the kind of feedback that's so helpful and supportive to everyone. And you don't feel anywhere as vulnerable if you know at the end of, let's say, supervising a session in BMA or the Lysivin that you have a team of people that, whether it's once a week or whatever it is, you have a team of people that you're going to be, you know, discussing challenges that arose or vulnerabilities that arose on your own part. And again, this becomes the problem in the alternative hybrid use is that if there's a lot of understanding or knowledge about these things, then the likelihood of them happening

becomes greater. And, you know, how do we honor each person's role? and respect each person's role in a way that's healthy for everybody. You know, that's the challenge. How to be for the higher good for all. It seems to me that there has to be an understanding of one is both teacher and student. When you break up into groups like that at one time, maybe that comes from playing different roles,

but it sure can be confusing trying to switch all those roles. and I'm this person or on that person or I'm both people. You know, that to me sounds like it would be a part that is very difficult to get used to, especially when you have authority or when you are in a position where something you could, especially when working with someone who could be on the edge of a breakthrough or a breakdown. Yes. And knowing how to create the space to understand that and support it, Yeah.

To know that, you know, Stan Groff has some wonderful expressions. You know, he said, breathe until you're surprised. And, you know, that was wonderful because it let go of expectations and intentions and goal setting and all that jazz. And for the facilitators, you know,

what it meant was, you're going to be surprised too. So stay alert, you know. Stay alert because the facilitators, the facilitators, people working in the Brackford setting, you're going to be surprised too at what may be awoken and how to manage it and how to support it in a way. You know, you were talking about suggestibility, right, and vulnerability. And you asked me to tell you some stories. I told you one.

You want another one? Please. Okay. So this one's kind of a little tricky. It happened during the time, the very early days. I had a number of different kind of psychosynthesis trainers when I was going through, as is very normal in psychosynthesis, you know. And so, however, you know, you also have individual supervision as well as group supervision.

As, you know, there's layers of this in the transpersonal work. And so I remember things coming up for me that I didn't understand. And so I'd spoken to one of the supervisors and here, the power of suggestibility and the need for really healthy boundaries. Now, the timing in the era was really important. It was at a time where, I don't know if you remember this or you're aware of it, but kind of through the late 80s, there was a bunch of things that was happening. Let's say through the 80s, there was a bunch of things happening. there was first of all everybody was getting UFOed right what happened to that what was the term you used whiffoed oh UFOed yeah yeah yeah that's right yeah i remember there was about a decade i don't remember it had

like it's been a while since i kind of thought about this that everybody was getting UFOed i mean everybody you know neighbors of the UFO and they all had these stories about what happened up in the spaceship and you know all of this jazz. And I mean, it was really serious researchers looked at it. Like, what's going on? I remember having a conversation with Sand Garth about it. John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist, who was like, and the heck, he looked at this whole field.

He happened to be in our group when we first went to Matthew in 1996. So it was still around in the early 90s, okay? And he did a whole bunch of research, like, what the heck's going on was his position? And he actually had a meeting at the Pentagon and in the White House with what his finding was what he thought he would. Unfortunately, he got killed in a traffic accident. It was a huge loss of the field. Only a few years after that in London, in England. Didn't look, stepped out, got hit by the bus.

What a tragic end into a wonderful, wonderful man. Anyway, so here's this whole thing going on about UFOs. And then it kind of melts up and disappears. Okay. And then we have this whole thing about false memory syndrome. Remember that one? Yeah. Do you actually hear about it these days?

Only from Jules. Good point. Okay. And, you know, he's addressing the need for ethics and healthy boundaries and suggestibility. He's one of the standout people who is doing that. So, you know, chapel to Jules. And Jules Evans, if anyone doesn't know, who we're a static integration.

I don't know who we're talking about. And so, you know, we have this thing that was happening, and it actually tried to happen to me. So here I am. I have stuff that I'm not sure. I don't have an idea, but I can feel something bubbling up to the surface, and it feels young. It feels kind of vulnerable, only later, or do I understand that it's body memory of birth, okay? And I was just starting to jump into Stan Groff's work when I was in my psychosynthesis training. So I made an appointment with one of the supervisors.

And so I sat and spoke with her, and I said, you know, I'm going to him. And she immediately says, you must have been incested. And I said to her, no, I don't think that was possible. I had my father. And, you know, my mom certainly had some courts, but nothing. that and I know in my body that didn't happen to me I was appalled that that was said to me and then there was after I kind of said no I don't think so there was like digging around well there must have been someone in your early life who

because all of a sudden you know this whole thing was happening around you know eight out of ten women or something had been incested and I mean it's falling I I am pleased I don't want anybody to think that I am denying at all the terror, the trauma, the horror of these situations. I am not at all. They happen. It's real. It creates a terrible effect within the family and children. So please don't anybody.

I'm just saying it didn't happen to me. And the suggestion that it had happened to me based on some blurry. kind of, you know, blurry sensations' memories that were coming up for me, was not at all helpful for me. And if I hadn't have had such a strong, clear sense of self and what felt right for me and what didn't feel right for me, then can you imagine if I've gone with that, you know? Yeah, I think it's been happening in the world of psychiatry for a long time. you know, people have been wearing their mask of trauma like a badge of honor and become that thing, right? Oh, okay.

How's that for a transition? We're heading in a different direction. And this is all to do is suggestibility. Right. Okay, is when we're in a vulnerable state, and I would take that, you know, that I was in that moment vulnerable, speaking of that particular incident. And in both of them, the two that I've shared in this session, both of them were vulnerable. I had drunk daini.

I was sitting in a work rather than silence and, you know, the regular Santa Daini way of being. And certain mediumship is an important part in the Orthodox lines as well as the what's known kind of more Ombanda Sampal Daini lines. But nothing like this. Nothing like what was happening here. And so for me, both of these were extremely vulnerable moments, okay, in which I am intensely grateful for my relationships with my guides, trusting my inner wisdom to immediately align with my spiritual guides, not getting letting things make me go all blurry.

And so this is a really important part to put in is what's our responsibilities in those moments as participants. And in that moment sitting with that supervisor where for one shocked moment, I thought, could that have happened to me? Do you know what I'm saying? And then I kind of, it's just like it was so clear for me that it wasn't, no. You know, and this just feels like it's really something else. But that vibrated. As you said earlier about throwing the pebble in the pond. That created a vibration for me.

That fortunately, at that point in my life, I had enough, as I said, sense of self and had done enough personal and spiritual work that I could lean into that, that authenticity within me. But what about the people we haven't developed that yet? are put in the position where they're being told all kinds of things about themselves and all kinds of things about what they should or shouldn't be doing about it, and all kinds of things about what somebody is going to do for them about it. And so this kind of level of suggestibility is something that just has to be discussed.

And, you know, and people who are working in the field need to firm up, okay, am I working with a code of ethics? Am I working with colleagues? Am I making sure that I'm being authentic and also impeccable in the work that I'm doing? And for participants, okay, before we get to the trauma, please. Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get there in a second. I'm just going to read.

It's from one of my books. It's Volume 1. For those of you who don't know my books, A-WASCO Awakening, Volume 1 and 2. It's a guide to self-discovery. and self-mastering and self-care. And so I talk about all the stages of spiritual development. And in choosing a teacher, spiritual groupal organization,

the following guidelines. So for those of you interested, it's right here in the books. Okay, trust your own intuition. Listen to your own wisdom and intuition and your instincts. Okay. If it feels like there's something off, then you know what? Take a long, slow deep breath and before you make a commitment, just have a look at that.

Discuss it with somebody who you respect. You know, sound it out to someone you respect and say, hey, I went to this yoga class, I went to this retreat, I went to this therapist, and this thing happened, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Okay? Discuss it with somebody who you respect. somebody who has even the training or, you know, the job experience or something to be able to say,

yeah, that feels a little off too. Get references from friends with people that you respect. So if you're looking at whether it's you're going to go see a therapist or join this spiritual group, with some references. Inform yourself about the person, the organization, the path, the religion, the principles, as well as the person or group responsible. Very recently I was reviewing a group's website that was doing offering, let's call them sessions and events, okay? And I was looking and nowhere on the website is a set of their principles or their beliefs.

Nowhere on the website was a code of ethics, how they conduct themselves. nowhere was there anything there was just tons of pictures of them looking all kind of spiritual and hugging each other and stuff like that I was like hmm okay what's the principles you know you're going to be serving people stuff

what are you actually believe where's your set of beliefs and principles and what's your code of ethics and you know you go on our church website and it's all right there principles tenants of the faith code of ethics okay Everything is right there, rules of the slough.

Everything is right there for people to read. You're going to be coming into our salo. Then you need to know this is what we believe. This is what we're going to be seeing and praying about. And, you know, if you don't like it, then we're not for you. You know? So inform yourself. Inform yourself.

This responsibility lies with the participant. Each of us is responsible to inform ourselves. check if the person or the organization has a code of ethics. Do they practice sincerity and respect towards staff and students? Big clue. Really big clue. There's an old saying that, you know, if you start dating someone, watch how they treat their dog.

And the waitress or a waiter in the restaurant. Watch how they treat them. And how they treat them is going to be a good indicator of what you need to know about the person, right? So if money is involved in donations or fees or something, does the teacher organization practice accountability and transparency? In other words, do you know what people are paying? Do you know what the donations are? And do you know where the money goes? Is it a volunteer organization?

Are there any paid positions? Where does the money go? These are important questions to ask if you're going to be making a donation or paying the fee. You know, when you make an appointment with your dentist, you assume you're paying for dental work. All right. It gets your bill. You've had your teeth cleaning. He's had your whatever.

Okay. Out you go. You're filing your income tax. You pay your accountant. You know, what you're getting. Why is it the people going to spiritual organizations or they go into these settings where they're going to be in a non-admiralisticated consciousness? And they don't ask the same questions. You know, I don't know.

It's like we, something happens. Some vulnerability or something happens and people's regular sense of accountability for their own well-being seems to drop by the wayside. Does the teacher organization support students and clients in difficult situations such as spiritual emergency and if so, what resources do they offer? So you get in deep waters, you know, as you just mentioned the word Jules Evans is doing, you know, the research that he's bringing forth in the articles and trying to address. You know, a lot of these people were felt unintegrated, had difficult experiences, what kind of, and this happens. This can happen in everyday life.

You don't have to go and take a substance to have a spiritual emergency or to have some kind of crisis in your personal life. This can happen spontaneously or is a result of a divorce or a new job or giving birth or your dog buying or there's all kinds of things that can set this off. So the role of human guides is to help to teach and to be role models, not to direct your life or make your decisions for you. Would you agree? Yeah, I think it's imperative. Yeah, offer to help. to teach, offer teachings, offer, and to be a role model. Okay.

Okay, my final word of advice is do not be gullible. Okay, now this is, for some, this is a lifetime lesson. Okay. All of us kind of, who was it, who said, fool me once, shame on you, she'll fool me twice, she want me. Yes. Did I get it right? Got it.

Okay, so we all have to take responsibility, all of us, for our own suggestibility and our own goalability. So never give up your personal power to anyone else. You are the master of your own life. Agree? Yeah. Which is difficult for someone who is in transition, who is very vulnerable. They're looking for that direction. That's right.

And a good guide or teacher will keep reminding them the direction is in. inside of you, the source is inside of you, the wisdom is inside of you. All we're doing is creating a space for that authenticity and wisdom to grow. No teacher or guide or facilitators should take responsibility or ownership of somebody else's growth, feeling, transformational process. The same way, a good midwife does not take responsibility for the baby. Okay. I just help baby you ride.

You know, I didn't create baby. I just helped baby arrive. Okay, yes, you can thank me, and that's great, just doing my job. Okay, and that's the level that people working in the field of anthogenes and psychedelics need to have. I didn't produce the baby. I just helped the baby arrive and help the mother give birth to the baby. And so if we have that kind of, you know, authenticity and healthy boundaries, then we are going to be. be supporting people if we start taking the power into ourselves okay I'm such a creative

healer and I'm such a this and I did that and wow okay that's a big problem I heard a good quote that I think sums up a lot of of things for me that helps me see clearly almost like a lens to look through and it's that when the instrument becomes the becomes institutionalized it loses its ability to to work and if you look at healing as an instrument of the a self-instrument. Like you had mentioned before, the healing is in all of us. But when people decide that they are, they institutionalize healing.

Like all of a sudden, the healing no longer works in the way of which it should. Because you, the healing happens inside of you, right? Like, no one does the healing for you. And maybe that speaks to the idea of, of the mentor or the leadership position when they're asking you questions instead of giving you advice.

Like in the Zen movement, they give you these co-ons where you can think about things versus telling you what your problem is. And, you know, and that's a delicate dance. Yeah. A delicate dance because, again, the accountant has to say to you, your expenses are too high, okay?

And your dentist has to say, are you crossing regularly? Okay. And so on some level, there's a delicate dance in the area of psychology, you know, personal growth, you know, that whole spectrum of, that includes personal transformation, personal growth, self-exploration, and the various and sundry different, you know, professions that have been serving that through a long period of time, you know. Now, you know, I'm hearing some of your questions, and I'm thinking, what's a really great question, you know? Are people thinking about them?

Are people considering them? Are people looking at really taking ownership of their own personal transformation? Or are they tossing it on to? You know, lots of people just want to go to the shaman, have the shaman remove that thing. And how is that different from people who just go simply to a psychiatrist and say, give me a pill to make this go away? Now, I am not at all criticizing the plan. place of pharmaceuticals in the role of health.

A grateful for anesthetic when I'm doing it. And I have dodgy hips with arthritis and persitis, so if I scooped you around when we're talking, that's what's happening for me. I love my cortisone shots. Okay. Well, you know, the persitis, all my arthritis, everything cools down for a few months.

So please, no one here that I am, you know, really saying the entire pharmaceutical amount, like any industry, the pharmaceutical industry, with all of the psychiatric medications and, you know, they're used in psychology and psychiatry. In general, practitioners are prescribing them at the same time, so all the anti-anxieties and the antidepressants and things like that. I'm not speaking about them. I think that they, against them, they have their place. They can be really helpful for helping a person.

you know who's been through a very difficult or challenging experience they can help them sleep they can help them come to terms with their grief or their loss or their difficulties okay but it's not should never be the only solution okay because it doesn't work it doesn't work it can be an very important part of addressing and resolving and definitely there are some conditions where medication is essential. Okay, and that's just a reality where, you know, there's a spectrum of well-being and there's a full spectrum of it, a continuum of it. And there are definitely some people who really do require medication for their

psychological or psychiatric, you know, stability. And then there's other people who can just use it for a short period of time as part of a program that it would include nutrition and exercise and support and perhaps in-depth exploration to be able to come to terms with whatever it is that they're dealing with anyone. And does this make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. I think that I'm hopeful that people get a change of perspective because I think for me,

And I can only speak to me. However, it seems to me that the pain never goes away. And if you can understand that, then you know that you can't go to someone to take your pain away. And you shouldn't want to because pain is growth. But it's difficult to have that perspective of like, this is with me forever. It's part of me. And maybe it's not such a bad thing. But when you try to eradicate a part of yourself that's trying to help you grow,

that's when you invite the trauma. And when you look for the shortcut, you're inviting the person into your life or the energy into your life that's going to cause more pain because you're not facing the issue. And so I think that when people go to someone and want to have a magic pill or they want to meet a certain guru

that's going to fix all their problems, they're inviting that problem right into their life. They may not be aware of it, but I think it's a perspective change. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like that movie The Matrix, you know, where there's a guy who kind of betrays everybody and then he goes and he talks to go back, yeah. And plug me back in, but this time I would like, you know, I'd like this fake life instead of that fake life. Okay. And so there are people, there are people who from despair, desperation, a whole host of experiences say, I don't want to do this anymore.

I can't do this anymore. Just give me the pill. Just give me the pill. Or who, in despair, go and seek all kinds of, I've watched former clients and participants in various workshops and classes I've taught and everything like that. Get to that place of despair. And instead of facing the situation, you know, I'm a cancer survivor, so I can actually speak to this from been there, done that.

And so we can panic away from the cancer or we can sit down and go, wow, this is really scary. Yeah. This is terrifying. Okay. I was going through my psychosynthesis training when I had my diagnosis of cancer. And I remember curling up on a mat and the rest of the class huddling around me. And then, you know, one of them saying to me, hey, Find yourself.

Okay. Find yourself. You know, because that first shock of, oh, my God, you have to let all the fear and the grief. And unfortunately, I was willing to do that. That in the midst of it, you have to reach down and find yourself. And I've watched lots of people panic and they run to all kinds of places for all kinds of solutions. and every kind of possible, you know, story about panicking away from.

Now, I'm not talking about the people who, who, you know, like how I chose to, you know, relate to the health situation and challenge, which was to go deep inside of myself, deepen my practice, examine my life, see what I needed to do, if anything, to put things back into place, or to put into place, I have children, teenage children,

a mortgage on my house, which is insured, of course, but still, you know, putting, making sure everything is in place, and then opening and saying, okay, is this my time? Is this my time? And if this is my time, then, you know, just I'm trusting spirit. Show me what it is that I can do or need to do. And if it's not my time, then help me go through this experience with as much courage as I possibly can find

and making good decisions for my well-being and the well-being of my family. You know? And please don't anybody think it was an easy time because it certainly wasn't an easy time. And I'm immensely grateful to my family, my dear friends who are supportive, and especially my therapists.

Okay, I was passing clean eggs. So, you know, there's, there's, there's what do we do do we run away from it and try and find a way like plug me into another life this isn't happening and and or do we come to terms with and open up and own what's authentically going on inside and be with it you said an interesting thing george which is the pain is always there now i've had teachers teach me different things about this and i again i'm going to try and speak from You know, I've had cancer. I've now lost both my parents.

My mom died in October. My dad died 27 years ago. I've lost beloved cats. How many beloved friends have passed away? So it's not possible to have a life that doesn't have what you go to say, illness or suffering. It's not possible to go through life without loss. It's not possible. So all of us have to come to terms with who am I in the face?

Who am I in the face of loss, grieving, challenges, difficulties? Who am I? Because in the end, I think that's the last thing that we can choose. I can't change what's happening, but I can choose how I go through it. Again, in volume one in my books, I'm quite sure it's in volume one. I talk about decisions. If it's thought there, it's in volume two, sorry. I talk about decisions and choices and sometimes the final choice that we have is what state of consciousness we're going to have as we're going through an experience that's difficult for us.

What state of consciousness am I going to have? Are you going to be all right and close down? You're going to be screaming through it. Well, yeah, if you need to do that for a while, then you go ahead and do that for a while. Make sure you get the good support you need to do that for a while, you know? and at some point that needs to run down that needs to at some point you start to feel okay I'm kind of the well of whatever it is grief loss fear

whatever is starting to end up to you now it's starting to and what is happening is not that the pain goes away and not that the pain is always there it's that we grow around it so it's not so much that the pain or the loss or the trauma or what have you is so much shrinking, although it may be,

but what's happening is we are growing around it. And what I would say that to, you know, all my clients through all the decades. I worked with people, really, four decades. And the other thing I would say is, yes, you have a wound. Yeah, you have a wound. That was wounding, whatever the thing was. Okay?

That was wounding. But you don't need to keep it a big, deeping open wound. You know, when we have a cut, we don't just leave it all open and bleeding. We make sure it's clean. We make sure it's protected. We put the right ointments on it to make sure if we have to take antibiotics, we have a fresh in our tetanus shock, whatever it is we have to do. You take responsibility for that physical room and we do what we can to heal it

and make sure that the body gets what it needs. And now with the soul wounds, we get what the soul needs. What does the soul need to heal wounds? Because what I tell people is it won't be a big gaping open wound that you just kind of cover up and ignore or deny. What it will be will be a scar. There will always be a scar. But it'll be a scar.

It won't be a great big bleeding wound, you know. And so, you know, we all have our scars, and we can look at our scars as our red badge of courage. And my scars from my surgery from my cancer, the one on my leg, it's like really obvious, you know. And some people will ask me about it. You know, it's like, to get a short fight or, you know, some people are convinced us from a motorcycle bike. And so, you know, owning your scars, not being ashamed of them. They're your courage.

You know, my daughter lived and studied in South Africa for a while, and she was doing her doctorate there at the University of Cape Town, and I went and spent a month with her to explore and travel, and it was a blissful, wonderful month. Anyway, she picked up wisdom, and I'm sure it was her who shared this with me, you know, and if not, then I've read it. And certainly, I believe the Clarissa Picola Estes, her wonderful book, Women who Run with the Wolves. I think she just addresses this, is that letting our scars become our badge of courage, where we can say, well, this is where I fought the lion and I won. You know, and that really totally went into my heart. So, and this is African and indigenous truth and wisdom. You don't hide your scars and get embarrassed of them

and remember, you know, cosmetic surgery on absolutely everything, which is our culture. Okay. And I'm not against cosmetic surgery. am not okay for people who feel that it's an important part of of their own authenticity then you know that's your choice is your body you get to do what you want I'm just saying that some of us have scars that we can choose to say hey that's my red badge of courage that's where I fought cancer and I won't so it's all about how we deal with we're really moving around vulnerability whether it's

about our body and whether it's about our soul and whether it's about where we're positioned in life. And we're also kind of edging around that word trauma, right? And, you know, I'm going to put it into a bit of a continuum now. So there was this whole thing with UFOs that kind of came in this period and kind of just melted and used off and I don't know, we don't see anything about it anymore. And then there was this false memory syndrome, which was like a huge issue. And, you know, a little bit of this has come back because people, you know, like Jill's Evans are starting to talk about, hey, be careful that it was suggestibility that you're not planting it, a false amendment.

Okay. That you're not doing that. And so if, you know, the instinct is to try and help and fix other people. We need to be careful that we're actually not making more problems and already existed. So here we have trauma. There's a lot of conversation about trauma these days. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Please don't anybody here I'm saying bad thing.

It's not. Because what's been in the closet has to come out of the closet. You know? It just has to. It has to come out of the closet and walk around for a while. Okay, but we don't have to set it up on a pedestal. I have a father who was an officer in the British Army and he went, he bought through World War II. And I'm sure he had some post-traumatic stress disorder, but he'd never talk about it.

He was British. It was 1940s. You know, they knew from World War I about what they called shell shock. And then it became, I forget there was another time to use for a while until it became post-war. traumatic stress disorder. It's real. It's absolutely real. And nobody is going to deny that the human experience is a spectrum that can include everything

from the most wonderful and glorious of experiences that is fun and full of life and the best and the best of being human and being life. Okay? down to the most difficult and tragic. And, you know, all we have to do is look at the news and see. I mean, right now there's, what, 32 different wars around the world? I think it's 32, maybe it's up for 34, who knows? Okay, and the war of the moment is the one that's on evening news,

and it'll shadow out other wars, okay? But there's, what is this human experience that we can't live in peace? Well, it seems like we can't. And that's a reality. We can't. And we need to take ownership that a large percentage of the human population is going to choose to, well, they're going to make other decisions. Now, how do we deal with what happens when people choose to not live with respect and peaceful and authenticity? And we're going to have, let's call it trauma.

Okay. So it's always been there. You can read any ancient texts you want. Jesus talked about it. There'll always be more. There'll always be poverty. There'll always be illness. Buddha talked about it.

No one escapes the illness or something. We all age. We all die. Life is difficult. Okay, so all the great spiritual teachers talk about it. Yes. Now, how do we, as I said, bring it out of the closet with us,

putting on a pedestal. Because there's something that seems to be happening. And if you can bear with me, there's an article, maybe based on a book by Lexi Pandell and Box, talking about how trauma became the word of the decade. Okay? And like, if I can just read one or two.

Yeah, please. So this person is saying, trauma is real. it can result in real disorders. We all agree. As I said, having a dad who was part of the troops, releasing River Belton, Velson, one of the death camps, who was stationed in Germany for a part of the war, who saw things.

You know, before the war, he was a gestationed outside of the Quetta earthquake. So it was happened 30 kilometers away. He watched the whole city go to rubble. He was with just, he was a major in the military. in the British Army. He took, you know, his troops that were immediately there. I think he was captain at that point. He took them in as soon as the dust was starting to settle.

And I'll never forget what he said. Where do you start? What do you start? Where do you start with something so enormous? And so we're seeing this on the news, more or less, every night. And so we know it's real. No one's going to be denying this. However, there's something that's happening.

He talks about the DSM-5, the standard American psychiatric diagnosis, which is not my Bible, but it's an important part of the conversation, right? Currently defines it as an actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence, either being the victim or the witness. So that's the actual definition. So what's happening is the definition of trauma is changing. what my father experienced in the war was traumatic. He watched people dying. He assisted in opening, you know, death camp, concentration camp.

He saw lived these experiences, you know. And so nobody's going to deny that it's real. He came home full in body, which was kind of a miracle. So given how many people lost their lives and lost, you know, part of their functionality. So getting back to this, growing attention to the term has pushed forth a larger acknowledgement of the indirect and long-lasting consequences of violence. And what the author is saying is this is long overdue.

It's like, this has to come out of the closet. It has to have its time of walking around. But we can't pretend it's like this is the only trauma that happened. We have to see that trauma is something that's part of the human experience. experience. And there aren't just a few people who suffered a particular trauma, but the trauma is part of the story of the human race. And then how do we come to acknowledge this and how do we support it and understand it with, again, I'm going to keep using that term where they're putting in a pedestal. So some who study trauma, however, say that current cultural references to the word have become a mess. Okay. This is on quote, and this is not me saying this. So it's tongue in cheek, casual mentions, mixed up with serious confessions and

interrogations of the past with definition misunderstandings from the absurd to the trivial, the profound, and the sincere. So I'm saying, what courage this person has to step up and saying, hey, wait a minute, this isn't a one-size-fits-all word. Why has it become a one-size-fits-all word? You know, we can't, the trauma of, say, being bullied at school. Which so many people, I mean, come on, did anybody actually go through school without being either the bully

or bullied or the bystander? I mean, is there anybody? If somebody is, please write to me on LinkedIn, okay? Because you're either the bully, the bullied, or the bystandard in school. When are we going to take ownership of the fact that the human race is actually an aggressive race and that children, by nature, can be unkind? I was a child in school. They had children in school.

I have grandchildren in school. And when they're describing behavior that I saw in school and that my children saw in school and experienced in school. And they're witnessing the exoxone behavior. So all of these things that we do doesn't seem to actually address that, doesn't? Or do we just have to have a whole different conversation about this and an understanding about this and find a way to kind of manage it in a different way or put it into a different thing? Because just trying to say that everybody is traumatized, okay, and then, okay, where do we go from there?

You know? I don't want my identity to be, you know, I will say I'm a cancer survivor, but that's not my identity. That's an experience that I had that I got a tremendous amount of wonderful support in that I'm very grateful. That, yes, I survived. Thank you very much. It wasn't my time. Okay. But it's not my identity.

You know, it's something that happened to me that was really scary and I'm really glad that it's going to happen again and fingers crossed. Okay. But am I making sense about trauma becoming an identity instead of an experience? Is this making some sense? Because I'm finding my way in this conversation. I actually haven't had this conversation in a public forum yet. So, you know, any listeners, please be patient with me. And thank you, George, for your patience.

Because this is a finding, finding my way with the conversation and just wanting to air it out. see, you know, where it goes. A couple more quotes from this. Trauma is one of those words that can mean anything, says Michael Shearing, a medical doctor, professor at Tulane University, author of the book, The Trouble with Trauma. It can mean I was stuck in traffic. That was traumatic. My football team lost.

That was traumatic. That's the way it's now used in our culture. This is a quote of his, from his book, The Trouble with Trauma. The word hasn't simply been watered down, but adopted widely as a kind of cultural touchstone. I have trauma as a statement is now in the same category as I'm depressed or I'm addicted to cookies. It says Pamela Rutledge, a media psychology. It has become a popular idiom tossed around with diminished meaning. So what do you have to say about all that?

found this fascinating when I did a little dig into it based on a question I got asked in another lecture which in the moment because it was it was part of a bunch of questions I decided to dodge until I'd done a little bit more research you know then let me let me take a different tacked on it maybe it's a sign up maybe it's a sign of progress you know maybe the fact that everybody is saying, I have trauma and people are agreeing with it. And people are on some levels, maybe we've gotten away from my trauma is bigger than your trauma, which, you know, is great. Okay.

With this hierarchy of trauma. Yeah. That's one of the things I'm having trouble with is, you know, that takes me right, right back to no one escapes illness or suffering. Right. And the beautiful Zen story of the woman who, you know, you know, was sent by the Zen master to find the grain of rice and she has to find it in the village where there's been no loss or suffering. Okay. And she comes back a year later and says,

I'm healed because in the sharing of my story, no one has escaped illness or suffering. So if it takes, if this current conversation about trauma takes us to a place of sharing, of compassion, of support, hey, I'm right in there with it. If, however, it starts to separate us into a hierarchy. My trauma is more important than your trauma. I have a problem with that. Okay. I don't know if anybody else does.

You do. But they are. Aren't there some traumas that are more prolific or more painful than other traumas? Like, how can you not put it in a heart? That's where do we go? That's where this is exactly what those people are saying. It's the word has become a touchstone for a lot of things that it was never intended to mean. Trauma is like we are trauma.

You know, the person's gone into cardiac arrest. That's trauma. Technically, by medical standards, trauma is trauma. However, the word is now being an umbrella term. So I'm suggesting that maybe we, you know, we either redefine the word or we start using different words. Okay. And instead of just using this word for everything, because then we're, we're, we're, We are going to fall into the hierarchy, which is, you know, the people who's, you know, let's just using, use the war that's on the news right now.

Right. Okay. People who had bombs dropped and their entire town is now obliterated and they can't find, you know, they're a 12-year-old who can't find their father and mother or younger siblings, okay, because everything is a huge pile of rubble and the odds of them being able to be found a lot of. alive is very slim. That's a completely different kind of trauma from when I was in grade four, somebody wasn't very nice to me. I'm sorry, it just is.

I have difficulty. I'm not saying that, you know, the circumstances, the difficult or challenging circumstances that we have in our life are, they're ours. And a broken finger that I have in comparison to your broken leg, okay?

My broken finger hurts me. Your broken leg hurts you. How do we get out of that dynamic that seems to be happening now where things that are truly traumatic are being kind of diminished by the casual cultural use of the word? I just feel like this is a conversation needs to be hit. You know, for my own understanding. Because I find myself getting curious about this, you know, and how do we speak about it?

And how do we, remember, I've been, you know, nearly four decades in private practice, I'm used to holding space. And coming around to 28 years in the Santo Dami, I'm used to holding supportive space. I have no problem with that and encourage it and that people should find supportive space and co-create supportive. space and the people's stories need to be told and they need to be heard and we need to respect people's stories. But how do we now deal with this cultural language thing in a way that is respectful to the people, everybody's experience, but not lumping what I would consider to be kind of real trauma? We're back to the hierarchy game.

Sorry. No. Can you think of a difference? Help me out here, George. help me. Okay, well, if someone who has been in practice for that long, and you've seen the evolution of the definition of trauma, like you've seen it, you've seen the texture of trauma change. So if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, what does it, what does it look like moving forward? If you look on all your experience, how has trauma changed?

And is there, is there an answer in there? Is there a morphology in there that you've seen that you can see a pattern with. Well, you know, I think that this is part of it. And again, I'm just finding my way in the conversation. So I think that there's a part of it that maybe people are talking about and neither people aren't. But I'm going to come back to if we have this experience in our culture that I have a right to happiness, we've talked about this before, that I'm entitled.

You know, it's just entitled. I'm entitled. titles to have certain things, that spiritually goes against everything that I understand about the human experience. You know, that none of us are kind of, we all get what we get. We make the decisions we make, and a lot of the times the difficulties we have are based on our own decisions. Sorry, but that's what I've seen. I'm 74 now, and I've seen a lot and lived some. And it looks like a lot of the time that we have problems is because of decisions that we made or things that we denied or things we overlooked.

And if we just take responsibility for that, for our part in it, then, you know, that really helps us to grow. Now, that's that that happens that we had no say in decision in, you know, that can be, you know, we're innocently walking along the street and something, you know, flower pot flies off somebody's balcony. and conks us out and, you know, or walking across the street and, you know, I got hit on, I was riding my bicycle, going through the intersection on a green light, a taxi jump, his red light and ran into me. I had to do two years of physiotherapy, you know.

They couldn't believe nothing was broken. And I'm like, I'll thank God get my head seen. But, you know, I didn't ask for that. So this was just stuff that happened. Those poor people where the bombs are dropping. They didn't ask for that. You know, war is terrible. And most of us wish it would end and stop and never happen again, but that's not realistic.

And so trauma is always going to be part of the human experience, is what I'm trying to say. How do we create a conversation in which people are able to come forward, but recognize it as being part of the human experience, that it's not a personal identity, that this is making sense, that it's part of the human experience, that if we, to do our best authentic self in it and be that, that if we embrace it as an experience in which we are going to have our own reactions and that we need some support, but it's not who we are. And if we need to become it for a short period of time,

then that that's part of the growth of it, but it's not the end goal. And so all the people who came out of the question, closet needed to come out of the closet, the people who'd suffered at the handle, like a old me-to thing and all of the different movements that have come out and said, hey, we need to talk about this. Yes, we do. And it all needs to come out of the closet, needs to have its turn, walking around, being identified.

My concern is, let's not put it up on the pedestal and let these things not become a personal identification. I'm a person who had this experience. I'm taking what I can to grow and to develop with it. I'm making sure I get what I need to help me to get supported and recover from it and to make wise decisions based on who I really am. I'm not what that experience tried to show me about who I am. Does that make some sense, what I'm saying?

Yeah, but it's kind of scary. though, like on some level, maybe, you know, if we look at systems, like systems and like Darwinism, like maybe the strong people eat them suffering people, you know, like I don't want that to happen, but on some level, if people cannot, if people are going to be pushed into trauma and they can't get out of it, those people end up becoming the food for the caterpillar the catalyst for the butterfly, if that makes sense. You know, like, maybe that's where we are as a species. Maybe we are.

I'm not following the whole thing of the caterpillar and the butter that you have me back at. Okay. So if we accept that the human species is aggressive, okay? Yes, okay. Can we do that? Yes, of course. Is aggressive.

That we have to understand our own instincts and survival instincts and our own nature, the nature of the human species. I don't think aggressive is a strong enough word. Can we change that word? Yes. Okay. We're a violent species. Yes, I like that.

We are. We are. Aggressive, violent, greedy, selfish. Yes. Yes. All of it. And we have to own that. Otherwise, it runs us.

If we repress and pretend we don't have it, it goes into our shadow, and then it makes our unconscious decisions for us. If we recognize that that's part of being human, but we don't want it to make our decisions for us. and that we want our higher self, our inner wisdom, you know, to make those decisions for us. What's for the higher good and the betterment? Okay. Our petty self is always going to go in the other direction.

Yeah. But our higher self is going to try and call us into what's for the higher good. Okay. So if we're looking at that, run it again by me what you were trying to say about the caterpillar and the butter. So I think that people, I don't see a middle ground. And maybe this is my personality. I'm trying to find a middle ground. But it seems to me that when you take a good look at the way in which people are greedy,

they're violent, they're selfish, they fight for resources, it's very difficult to beat back that group of people with a group of people that are victims. And it seems like the people. People in the middle are a very small group trying to be that bridge. But I don't know if that bridge can hold. I think at some point in time you split into one of those two groups. And that can lead to more trauma because you don't want to be the greedy, selfish person. But on some level, you're like, okay, well, I can't be the victim.

I have to do this. And so there's this dichotomy that happened. So I'm- Okay. So what I'm hearing you say is that you're looking at the victim and perpetrator. and that in between on a global scale, not just in an individual situation, but on a global scale that there's victims and perpetrators.

Absolutely, I addressed this dynamic in my book, and I call it predator and prey. Here's the thing, is everybody, we have the cat and the mouse inside of us. We can't go look at and saying, okay, those are the perpetrators and those are the victims. I mean, we can, we can look around the world, But on some other level, it's inside of us. It's inside of us.

And unless we take ownership that the cat and the mouse are inside of us and that in one minute we can act like the cat and the next minute we're going for the mouse. Okay. And one thing that I discuss in books is, you know, the people who, one of the dangers of a strong identification with victim, it needs to be conscious. and this, we're back to trauma game.

It needs to be a consciously owning of that certain experiences or events happen that were challenging, difficult, awful, terrible, traumatic, whatever words fit, okay? But that's not who the identity is. I'm a person who have these experiences, and now I want to transform myself around them

so that I can grow as much as possible. Maybe someone will feel called to help, serve other people the way former alcoholics help counsel alcoholics and the way people who survive cancer help with group work with supporting people who are cancer you know so the me too movement there's people who mentor people who were you know um mistreated and violated in their office circumstances by power abuses right and so how can we support and mentor people who have had those experiences to help them grow around and beyond that. And so they're not just stuck in a victim place forever.

Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. I just, I also, you know, I write about the victim and I have to say that I met not very many, that I met people who wanted to be the victim, who used being a victim to manipulate people around them to get what they wanted. And I write about that too. I didn't see it very often, but when I saw it, it was startling. You know, thankfully, more often what I saw was people who really wanted to grow and develop

and, you know, grow around and shrink that, you know, that stuff that was hurtful or scary or what have you. But there's some people who want to cling on to victimhood because, and use it for manipulation and use it for guilt and use it to get what they want from other people or culture or society or what happen. And so we're a complex species, you know, and you know, we've wandered down this kind of tunnel, you know, and let's bring it back for a moment and then we probably should be saying goodbye for the afternoon. But let's bring it. back to what are we really trying to say here are we trying to say that being human just being

human as a challenge and trying to understand who am i as a human being and how much of me is kind of hardwired in my body that i need to just understand that this is part of being the human species and and own it and take responsibility for it and then And the times that I've had as a person as a human difficult experiences, do I do my best not let them become my identity? Because that's a hard thing to live with. You know, as I said, short term, somebody has to own it. You have to own it before you can transform it. So, okay, yes, I have this terrible, awful experience.

I never talked about it before. And now I see people are starting to talk about it. Yes. Wonderful. Find the right forum, the right support, you know, and talk about it. But don't get stuck there. It's kind of like the 12-step program. You know what the 13-step is?

Is addiction to the 12-step program? And so, I'm sorry, that's a common phrase. And so I see this with kind of this whole kind of movement, with healing and drama and stuff. is there's so much good in it that we need to just keep focusing on the good and the goal, the goal to bring in the good and the support and to move through it and to become a whole self, right? And to ensure that we're not using vulnerability and susceptibility to actually create another trap for the person in which now trauma is on a pedestal, there's a hierarchy of them, And we're not going anywhere, we're not growing out of it and beyond it.

We're busy pointing a finger as to whose trauma is worse. Yeah. Is this what we're trying to say? Well, yeah. I do think it's what we're trying to say. But I think we lack the words and the ability to thoroughly communicate what we want to happen. Maybe we're just, maybe everything you see is you. And we don't have the ability to the cognitive horsepower to solve these problems.

Maybe we're a species that's not quite capable of fixing these problems, but we're trying to. And all of our trauma leads to the next step in a breakthrough, you know, on a species level. Maybe we're just not there yet. Yes. And, and maybe we'll never get there, you know. Maybe you can't get there. Maybe it's the individual's journey. Yes.

And if we focus on the individual journey, that the person that we can transform, feel is ourselves. Yes. For those who feel called to support and create a space and have the, let's say the training and the credentialing and the experience and the apprenticeship to be able to create space for others to do their growing in. you know then if that's the calling then that's the calling and these issues around vulnerability and susceptibility and you know the language that we use and and how we support people and use and how we're using our language so that it becomes the most supportive possible to the people that we are working with maybe it comes to lineage to Like the way in which you've studied with, with Dr. Roberto and Stanislav Grav,

and then you take the, you take the torch and move it forward a little bit. Then someone comes up behind you and they move it forward a little bit. Maybe, maybe it's open. Are you there? Are you out there? You know? And yes, and always moving it forward. Yes.

Keeping in mind that there's only some people who are going to want to be. Look at all the great teachers who came. They came, they taught, they brought the light. They brought consciousness. They brought ethics. They respect. They brought all of that. You know, and then they left.

They left their teachings, and then people love their teachings and bring them forward. And some people take their teachings and use them for power and authority and control of people. And so the cycle just continues. Anyway, it's been a great conversation. I love it. It was so much fun. I hope we actually, you know, brought the conversation, the discussion forward and maybe aired out, you know, got it out of the closet a little bit more.

And hopefully it will provide more conversations about how to hold this space and what words to use and how to use those words. So they become supportive and support growth and development and transformation in positive ways. I think anybody who's listening to this should definitely go to your new website that has a wonderful flow of information and the colors on there are perfect and it kind of calls out to anybody who goes there. And when they go there, they can check out your books, Iowa, Wosco, Wiccings, Volume 1 and Volume 2, which are guide books that people can thumb through and find something that calls to them. Wonderful. And I would invite everyone to go down and go to the show notes and check that out. But before I let you go, where can people, where is the best place to find you? And what do you have coming up?

Okay. Well, if anybody's interested, I'll be in Ottawa on the 7th, December the 7th. I think I posted it on LinkedIn. I might be, might find it somewhere. It's actually, for the last few years now, I just want to do a shout out to Dr. Anbelali, Dr. Monica Williams and some others, those two particularly than Dr. Paul Gough. But those two particularly who worked so hard to put together the, really, I think it's the first graduate level of psychedelics program at a University of Ottawa. And I had the great pleasure of being your first guest lecturer.

I'm an advisor to the program and support it fully. And so I'll be speaking there on Thursday. It's actually inter-faculty. It's to talk off and I are going to be speaking in the morning and then I believe the afternoon in. is some, I believe, graduate and doctoral students presenting some of their research and their work in the field. So it is, although it wasn't widely publicized, anybody in the Ottawa area, I'm not sure if there's live streaming. Find it in my LinkedIn posts, and you're welcome to join. And other than that, I'm hoping to take a little wee break for a few weeks.

And it's been kind of a very busy period of time. people who are looking to find me, you can find me through my website. I may need to be a teeny bit patient. I check often. Or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I know a lot of people try to find me on Facebook or Instagram or, you know, some of the other places, but I'm really not busy on those. I really don't look that often. I don't, I'm not active on Facebook, although I do have a page for a specific reason.

I'm really not active on it. So please don't be offended if I don't friend you. I just, I can't keep up. So LinkedIn, I do regularly so you can find me there on my website. Well, fantastic. And I really enjoyed the time and the conversation. I really appreciate it. And ladies and gentlemen, I hope you have a wonderful day.

And that's all we got for today. So ladies and gentlemen, aloha.