TrueLife - Dr. Tamara Rosier - ADHD - Your Brain’s Not Broken

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

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Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the True Life podcast. We are here with an incredible individual, someone who has overcome adversity in not only her life, but has helped multiple people overcome adversity in their life. She's an author, a doctor, and I think a pretty amazing person, Dr. Tamara Rose here. How are you today?

Hey, thanks for having me here today. I really appreciate this. This is going to be fun. It is going to be fun. For those that don't know, Dr. Tamara has written an incredible new book on the mysterious world of ADHD, I guess people could say. Can you introduce the book a little bit and tell people about how this came to be? Yeah. Now, just to be clear, to quote my children, I'm not a real doctor. So I want to be clear to everyone. I'm not an MD. My kids have always made that clear. Like, well, mom, you're not a real doctor. I don't want to mislead anyone when we're talking through medication or anything. Just want to get that out of the way. So I wrote this book. I'm an ADHD coach. And I wrote this book because I was working with some, so many people who didn't understand how ADHD was just really messing up their lives.

They're just their daily lives. And those of us who have ADHD, we have big feelings about that. And so these clients were just dragging into my office feeling horrible about themselves every day. Besides wanting to help other people, is it fair to say that you have maybe suffered some of the the ADHD issues? Well, if you're asking me, if I have ADHD, yes. I voted myself when I founded the ADHD Center of West Michigan, when I founded that about 10 years ago, I just saw a lot of people who knew me what, kind of went, oh, oh, that makes sense now. Yeah. So yes, I have ADHD.

The thing I want people to know about ADHD is it's not. tied to how smart we are. That's a whole different construct. I mean, whether we're smart or not, that's that's a different thing, right? But it does have to do with how we think and how our brain processes things. And that's, it's such a neurological difference that we think differently. And so I know there's all these jokes like, oh, look, squirrel and like we're highly distracted. And dude, that's true. But there's all these other. things that go along with ADHD that actually make life quite difficult for us. Yeah, I agree. I heard you say something in a previous interview that wasn't in the book that maybe you suspected

in the future, they're going to see our nervous systems maybe be wired a little bit different. Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah. Well, Tom Brown is a researcher. He's a real doctor, by the way. He's a researcher and he's noted this. And he said that those of us with ADHD have a different type of nervous system. And the way I explain it is it's almost like we're too twitchy. It's like the part of our brain, that's the survival part, the fight, flight, or freeze, it's like that's on hyper alert all the time. And then our brains get confused.

we think, well, we have the same response to a sales report being due as to a bear chasing us. neurologically, that feels the same for us. And so you can imagine how exhausted we are all the time because we get confused, what's a big deal, what's a small deal. And we really, we go through the modern life kind of going, oh, shoot, how do I do this again? So let me give you an example. Okay. So I have a PhD. So for those of you guys who are listening, I must not be that stupid. I must not be that stupid. Okay. Right. But I recently, I flew to D.C. and I was doing a presentation. So I'm in D.C. all by myself. Big girl, Tamara, right? Go to bed. My clothes are laid out. I get up in the morning. And I love. literally had to set alarms as like little places to go, you should have your makeup done by here, you should be walking out of the hotel by here, you should arrive, and I had alarms to get me

and to move me to the place where I had to be. And that's not because I'm dumb. It's because my ADHD, I have no temporal knowledge. I don't understand how time and space work together in a linear fashion. And remember, Dr. Hu would suggest it doesn't. So I'm a huge doctor-go-fam. So the idea here is, in a way, I'm handicapped in the modern life. I mean, other people just get up, go. No, no, no. I had to think through everything, and it was a mechanical kind of thinking through.

So the metaphor, I kind of suggest is if you didn't have ADHD, it's like you have an automatic engine. You just automatically know this stuff. And those of your listeners who are listening going, who the heck does he have on this, she can't figure out how time works? You're all neurotypical, so just relax. The ADHD folks are going, dude, I get her. You probably should get diagnosed. But that's how hard it is for me to actually work in time and space, right?

I have no concept of how time happens. Yeah. That makes perfect sense to me. When we start talking about topics like time, talk about rabbit holes. I can I can spend so much time thinking about the concept of time, past, present, and future. Like I just, I'll be stuck there for like a deer in the headlights. Oh, yes. And that kind of brings me, I think, to chapter four in your book called rabbit holes. And just I think what has blown my eyes. mind a lot is the way in which you were able to explain divergent thinking from the opposite. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, okay, so I'm going to take a risk here. Yeah. We just met, but I feel like we go way back, way back. So would you mind telling your listeners how you responded? Yeah. So I picked up Tamara's book, Your Brain's Not Broken. I don't know if we've mentioned the title yet. The book is call, your brain's not broken. And if you want to learn a lot about ADHD, I highly recommend

picking up this book. If you live with somebody who has ADHD, I highly recommend picking up this book. It's chock full of information. And I got to learn a lot about myself and others like me that have suffered from this. And so the realization I came to was for my listeners and for my friends and family, have you ever read something and thought to yourself, hey, this person's writing about me. Hey, this is something that happens to me. And it's more than just a general idea of this probably happens to everybody. This was like, no, this was written about me. Exactly. She's explaining something that I would use or explain verbatim. Chapter 4, which we're going to talk about, Dr. Tamara talks about convergent thinking

and divergent thinking. For me, that really hit home because I'll give you an example. I was at a PTA meeting with my daughters, teachers, and the principal and all the parents. And we're sitting there talking and it was a little bit of an icebreaker before we had done the interviews with the teachers. And so people are talking about how we don't have time. We wish to have more time with our kids. And the next thing I know, I launch into this idea about creating an invisible friend for my child on the drive to school so that you can help solve problems. And if you want to, you could even come up with like a fake language like glosses. that just sounds like blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, you're just making up all these different words. And I had launched into probably like this five-minute diatribe, and I stopped, and everybody

is staring at me with their mouths open, like, what just happened? Yeah. And, you know, and then I feel in those moments, it's both, it's both overwhelming, but also sort of this moment of pride where you're like, everyone's looking at me. You're like, oh, my God, everyone thinks I'm crazy. I am crazy. Why would I? Why would I? say that. Okay, that's perfect. So now you just gave me an example, brilliant example to work with, right? So convergent thinking, I mean, your timing on this is wonderful. Convergent thinking is what the modern world demands of us, right? And the modern world says, hey, we want you to think in these ways. It's linear. There's one answer. Find it. And Sherlock Holmes does it, right?

Sherlock Holmes will be deductive and kind of gather everything into one answer. That's convergent thinking. So it's gathering information together for one. Oh, but no, my friend, you and I do not do that. A hallmark of ADHD thinkers is to take that one idea. And your one idea was, gosh, we don't spend enough time with our kids. And you were listening to conversation, but your head blew that one idea up into 50 trillion little tiny pieces. And then you're kind of chasing those pieces around.

And then it got away from you and you start verbalizing those little pieces. And you're like, you know what we could do? You know what I've done in the past? You know, here's what we could do. And you know, here's how this is related. And you've pontificated for a second on your divergent thinking.

And all the convergent thinkers in the room were looking at you going, wait, what? I'm sorry, what did you just do? And now, had I been in the room and I didn't have a strict agenda because I can be, you know, a bit of a dictator like that. But I would have been, well, you know what? That's an interesting idea. But what if this? And you and I would have kind of riffed off the what ifs for a while. I there's the international conference on ADHD. It's a wonderful conference. I'm on the conference

committee. Many of us on that phone call have ADHD. And you can imagine the what if riffing that goes on. And these are really smart people, leaders in the field. And they're like, well, what if this? What if this? What if this? And, you know, it occurs at a time where at least my meds have worn off for the day. So I'm just right there going, yeah, follow that rabbit, that rabbit. And the problem is we all have 15 million rabbits to follow. And so that was a great example you just gave us. So those of us with divergent thinking, by the way, humans can do both.

It's just we have a strong preference, which one to do? So I'm in my office today. my daughter who's in college is my administrative assistant. She does not have ADHD. Okay, underline that. She is training some new hires on our computer system and, you know, the apps we use. She's patient. She's, she's convergent.

I try training someone on something and I'm bopping around going, well, you know, here's this, here's this, here's this. she has her list and she moves sequentially through it. And I'm positive, those new hires, we're looking at her today going, hmm, is she really related to Tamara? I don't know how this is possible because my daughter prefers convergent thinking. And I prefer divergent thinking. Now, the problem is one is like a gas pedal, the other one's like a break. And so you and I love the gas pedal.

And we're just like, yeah, what if, what if? And then everyone else in the room is like, hey, how about, how about we tap on the break a second? How about how about we just tap on that? Can we? And I see the look on my daughter's face when I've gone divergent on her. Now, sometimes it can be a gift and we can look like freaking geniuses. Can you think of a time when you, that's happened to you where you're like, people are like, dude, that was genius. Yeah, absolutely. I've, you know, there's been multiple times where I've been at work and I've sat down with like district managers and they're telling me, you know, we need to squeeze production out of these different routes. And where we're going to do it is we have this model and all these numbers that add up. And I'm like, those numbers mean nothing. Are you kidding me? What you need to do is just what you, if you want to look at these routes like pieces of cake and you want to shive off like a little bit, just cut off this fat piece.

these soap, all this frosting, get rid of it. We don't need that frosting on this cake. You know, and I got like five district managers looking at me like, dude, what? I'm like, okay, let me write it down for you in numbers. Okay, let me, let me, you know the Pythagorean theorem, right? Let me write it down like this. And eventually, if, if we're talking about numbers and they care about the actual end result, I'll finish it and I'll finally put a bow on it where it makes sense and they'll be like, you've got to be kidding me. How come we never thought of this? I'm like, you know why you never thought of it? It's too hard for you, you know?

Well, and that's the thing, though. That's why we can look like freaking geniuses sometimes. Right. And then we look like idiots the rest of the time. A lot of times. A lot of times. We're actually misapplying our divergent thinking. Right.

And it's when we misapply it that we just look like idiots. Right. And so one of the things I work with my clients for is when are you supposed to use your divergent thinking? as your beautiful strength. And what do you just need to do convergent? I feel like we should probably give an example of that. Just the other day, I was working with someone who wanted to clean out his garage.

Okay. He said, well, before I clean up my garage, I have to get the lawnmower blade sharpened. I'm like, why is that? He goes, well, actually, before that, and so what he was trying to do is like make things much more difficult. I have to do this, this and this first. I'm like, dude, that has nothing to do with your clean garage. And it's almost like, remember those Rube Goldberg machines? Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, I used to love those. I used to love cartoons. Right? And for your listeners, when you create a complex machine to do a very simple task, like turn on a light switch. And we create Rube Goldberg machines just to get simple. things done. I mean, there's times I'll go through the house and mutter to myself, keep it simple, keep it simple, Tamp, just keep it simple. Because I'll, I'll try to like add extra steps

because I'm divergent. It blows my mind to think about. So there's the genius side and then there's the not so genius side. One of the, one of the, um, and we are both. You have to. You have to. And it's one thing that kind of saddens me a little bit is that there isn't a ability. to ruin relationships, you know, not maybe on purpose, but it is a lot to deal with. People that are in your life, like you saying, I bet your daughter is a beautiful, intelligent young woman. I'm so thankful that you guys are working together and having a cool relationship and you have a cool family. I, I'm sure that there has been times where people in your family are like, it's way too early for this. Like, I cannot deal with this right now. And for someone that has

ADHD, it's like, oh, man, I am. You know what? And then you can just fall into these rabbit holes of like, you know what, I'm doing all these things wrong. Look at all this stuff, you know. And there is a little bit of a darker side that I kind of want to touch on just so people can understand that they can get through it and they can understand how to live in it. Can you talk about that a little bit? I can. You don't know this, but that's my next book project.

Really? Yeah. And it's seeking. I haven't written it yet, right? Still working with a publisher on it. But it's trying to answer the question, how do we live together? Like how do all of us, we love each other? How do we live together, neurotypical, those without ADHD and those with ADHD?

Because you know this, we're a handful to live with. We don't shut cupboard doors. Don't throw trash away. We have big emotions, usually about dumb things. Some people, and you and I are probably on the healthier side of things, right? Right. There are some people out there that are hot emotional. messes because of their ADHD. And remember, if they are, that's not because they're bad people.

It's because it's because their brain chemistry isn't well balanced. And so you and I, you know, really work hard at getting that life balance and that mental balance, but not everyone has had that journey yet. They don't have the tools probably. Yeah. So, so the next project is really talking. So I'm hoping, and maybe this is a bit grandeur. I don't know. We'll see. I'll talk to you in a couple of years, see if it worked. I'm hoping to talk to three groups specifically. And I call them the saplings, the young trees, the young families, and then young trees, the families with like high schoolers and then the mature trees. And that's families with adult kids. Because we all need to figure out how do we live together and how do we all get a lot and how do we love each other the best?

What happens when we get sideways with each other? So to your listener who if you're like, cool story, Tam, that that book's not written for me yet. That's okay. There's still hope. And it starts with you managing your emotions. So it really does start there. And that doesn't mean stuffing your emotions. It doesn't mean exploding your emotions. It just means you understanding like, remember in the book when I wrote about, I get angry on hot summer days when I get into a car and it's hot and I immediately start sweating. And I'm like, oh, I hate this. And how ridiculous that is really for me. And yet that's my ADHD just having an emotional response. Right. So, you know, just learning to manage like, you know, Tamara, do you have to be so angry?

Like it's predictable. Today is 80, oh, it's 90 degrees outside. Your car is going to be hot when you get into it. That's predictable. You do not need to have a big emotion following that. And if you do, let's try to get rid of it. Do you see, like, but think if I had someone else in the car with me and they witnessed that, right?

They could think it's about them. They could just get tired of me having big emotions all the time. And so that's how neurotypicals feel a lot of times. We just, we tire them out. Yeah, and ourselves too. I mean, it's emotionally draining, right? It's exhausting to be me, yes. Yeah, you say it in the book.

Yeah. When I, I think that the first off, that sounds like a great next book coming. I'm looking forward to reading. And what a great way to help heal people to get an insight into your life and others' lives and to help both the people with ADHD and the people that love them. Like that sounds like a movie, people with ADHD and the people that love them. And those who love them. I do think that maybe it starts with your first book, The Brain's Not Broken.

Like, it's a great place to start. And I really hope people take the time to get your book because it really helped me. I had a question on emotions that I'm hopeful you can maybe fill in some blanks. It seems that we do run hot emotions, be it delusions of grandeur sometime, or, you know, just being angry at stuff. Yeah. And it seems like we feed on those emotions. And I remember a few years back getting to a point where I realized, oh, my God, I'm getting

angry just so I can have fuel to get through my day in a powerful way. Okay. You said it and you said it perfectly. We have big emotions and we use them for fuel. So I'm going to nerd out just for a little bit. You know this, but so if you tap on your prefrontal cortex, that's on your forehead, right? That is where it's this modern amenity

and it's called a prefrontal cortex and it's in charge of executive functions like organizing your life, knowing what to do next, knowing what, how, and when to do things. And for those of us with ADHD, we lack regulation of dopamine that's mostly in our prefrontal cortex, right?

So it's a big problem for us. We don't know what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. And so you're looking at something. You're like, oh, well, my brain's not telling me what, how and when. Oh, I know. I'll go back in my brain to the limbic center. I'll scare the crap out of myself and then I'll have the emotion to do it. Or I'll make myself so mad at something.

I'll have the emotion to do it. And, yeah, and frankly, that's exhausting. But that is how I have a PhD. I'm not going to lie. I have a PhD because of this, right? I did my dissertation in a really short amount of time. It was short. It was intense. And I'd go out jogging after I was writing and just jog up this hill, crying, like, this dissertation is not going to beat me. And I swore and I used all kinds of language with that. Right? Yeah. I must be mustering all this emotion. by the way, it didn't work out well. Yeah, sure. They still call me doctor, but I developed an eye twitch. I was like for six months after, I had this like weird kind of, it wasn't really PTSD, but I just had like, I'd flinch all the time. Like my nervous system was shot after that. It's because I fed on big emotions just to try to, oh, and, you know, I was working full time

and had a child and president of an organization. And yeah, you know, you know the average here so it's so it's such an it's it's a beautiful story it's it's a story that comes with trauma that comes with failure but also comes with the winning the gold medal and the accomplishment of goals i can't imagine living any other way and it's it's sometimes it's It's fun to embrace and to know you're different and to see the look on people's face, even when they're looking at you like you're not normal. I think when you get to a certain point, hopefully, for those that aren't there yet, I hope everybody gets to a point where you can embrace exactly what you are and see the

upsides and get to know the downside so that you can begin to at least live on the grid, which maybe you can talk about a little bit. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That was perfect what you said. So I am not suggesting that we throw a big pity party for ourselves, even though some days I feel like it. Sure.

I am suggesting that we look realistically at who we are. And, you know, I just confess to all of your listeners that I am horrible. And it's not managing time. It's understanding time, right? As a concept, right? specifically as a Western concept. So I have to be real about that, which is why in the hotel room, I set alarms as marks to hit so I could be on time. And that's why I just want to be clear, like, this is hard for us. Something I love that you just kind of alluded to is every time

ADHD people succeed, I kind of feel like we're freaking here. Because we had to do more with less. We had to work harder because we don't have the prefrontal cortex to make it work. We had to kind of hack our bodies to try to do something. And so the equivalent of this, and this sounds strong, and I do just want to say it, though, we do not have reliable access to that prefrontal cortex. that would be the equivalent of being born missing half your leg. But then everyone's job is just to run.

And so I don't know why any of us run. And then some of us are really darn good runners, aren't we? And so anytime any one of us succeeds, I just feel like, you're a hero, man. You're doing it. In the presentation I gave last week, I kind of gave that example. And there was a person in the room who I knew he had ADHD because I could just tell he was like, oh, crap, she's talking about me. But he got teary eyed when I said that.

I said, man, people should be cheering because it was so hard for us to do the simple things in life. And you know, I write about like, you know, the simple things in life are super hard for us. Yeah. Right? I do. And yet sometimes we can look like geniuses and solve big problems. Yeah. it's such a, it makes me want to cry.

Like it's such a beautiful thing because I, you probably get it a lot when you talk to people. Like it just, it hits home. It hits home. And it's, it's every single underdog story I've ever watched. I've ever seen or I've ever listened to. And it's there is,

I get goosebumps thinking about, you know, how lucky and how thankful and how hard I've worked to have these little wins and be around people that I think are so much better than me. and I'm jealous of, but they look at me like, dude, wow, how are you here? Oh, my God, you're really smart. What the what? You, you are here? And then you talk to him and you're like, how about that? And they're like, whoa, you know, and it's, thank you for saying now. Like, again, I think you're speaking the story that so many of us have. And if you're listening to this interview right now,

and it's hitting home, pick up her book, your brain's not broken. I promise you, there's tons of these, this, just like this conversation is making you feel she's speaking directly to you. So will the book bring out this same feeling through multiple chapters. So pick up the book, your brain's not broken if you're listening to this right now. Thank you so much. I really appreciate, it means a lot to me that this hit you personally, because I was writing to people like you, to be an encouragement. I mean, well, first, here's what I pictured. First, I threw a glass of water in your face. And then I wipe it off and say, hey, now don't you feel better?

Yeah. I'm sure there's sometimes where it's like, oh, wow, this kind of hurts a little bit. I'm wondering if we could talk about rejection sensitivity for a second because you kind of alluded to it. Most of us with ADHD expect to be rejected. And we never feel good enough. We never feel grown up enough. Tomorrow I'm going to meet with a lovely human being.

We're expanding the ADHD Center. And so she's a designer helping me think through choices. She is neurotypical as the day is long. Let me tell you. And she's so sweet. When I say something kind of divergent and she doesn't quite agree, she tips her head and goes, well, and that's her cue to me going,

think about that, Tam. But I'm always kind of embarrassed around her. I always kind of feel like I'm not as good as she is. I'm second class. And she is such a wonderful human. And she always is like, well, Tamara, look what you're doing. I could never do that. I just do what I do.

And I want to say, you know, when I'm standing in front of you, I'm surprised my shoes match today. Like, you know, I'm working at a low level here. And I just love how gracious and kind she is to me. and if you are a neurotypical person listening and you know there's an ADHD person in your life, I'm really hoping you'll respond like this designer response to me in this loving, like reassuring like, no, no, no, I'll handle this detail for you. You know, she orders blinds for me because, I mean, if you're going to screw up,

I could screw up ordering blinds. I get so nervous about it, right? Blinds for windows and all that. but she's very kind. She has never put me down for what I don't have. She encourages me for what I do have. And I just love the gracious way that she interacts with me. And that so it for your, you know, I, I know you're married.

And I suspect your wife does not have ADHD. And I, I just, just from the, you know, briefly us talking, it sounds like she's a gracious and kind person to you and builds you up. And that means everything. And so every ADHD person needs someone like that in their life. I work with a lot of spouses, frankly, who are just angry at their ADHD people. And they try to fix them. They're like, well, he needs to stop doing this.

And she needs to just focus. And I would never say this because it's not professional. but I'm like, dude, get out of that marriage. She hates you. Like there's no fixing this. Yeah. Right? Yep.

We need someone to see us because we already have rejection sensitivity. We already have the, I just know I'm inept at life and someone will reject me. Yep. Right. So if you're that neurotypical person and you have an ADHD child, spouse, someone you love in your life, you can be that kind and gracious person. It doesn't mean you're going to do things for them. Because remember, we're not trying to be victims here.

Right. But I do, I am quite sensitive to rejection, as I'm sure you are too. And your listeners with ADHD. I'm also kind of almost sure I'm going to screw up somehow, right? Like if something happens, I'm like, oh, how did I screw this up? And sometimes it's not even my fault. Have you had that happen to you? Yeah. I can always find a reason why it's my fault.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, dude, you're just encapsulating everything. Yes. That's it. Everything's my fault. Yeah. I used to joke when I was growing up because I saw this in myself even growing up.

I said, you know, you could convince me that I cause the Middle East crisis. And I've always known. this about myself. Like I, yeah, which means I have to be careful who I hang around. Yeah. So if I hang around people who do want to make me the scapegoat. Sure. I, that's, so that's another, you know, thing I want to write about in the future.

Yeah. How do we maintain healthy relationships? Because we're low-hanging fruit for a narcissist, too. Yeah. There's, there are a lot of, you know, rabbit holes or avenues. or just divergent thinking. Like I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with myself, sometimes out loud for an hour.

You know, like, just, I'm with you. Who are you talking to? Who are you talking to? What? What are you talking? What? Only person who understands. Yeah, exactly.

The only person who understands. That's so true. It's so true. And I've lived other people's lives because I go down these ideas. You know what? I wonder what they were thinking. Maybe they're thinking this. I bet you they're thinking that because this happened to them when they were young.

That's exactly what happened to them. I bet you it was their uncle because I've seen their uncle and I've seen the way that their uncle. You know what's weird is she always watching the right side of them? Why do you think that is? And she holds her kid all weird like she's protecting them? Like I wonder what's going on there. You're next to an hour's gone by. I love.

I love you just demonstrated something of one, divergent thinking. But two, ADHD is really, it's not a. attention deficit, it's too much attention disease. Right? Because probably as you are noticing all those things, you're probably supposed to be noticing something else. But it was so pedantic and boring, but you're like, I'd rather not do that. I'd rather conjecture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's, yeah, it is. It's both debilitating, but also incredibly insightful and fun and and heartwarming and entertaining and leads me to live a life worth living in a sort of way the ADHD makes my life a life worth living. Yeah. I, you know, okay, so let's talk about this

for a second because I want to be clear, ADHD is not a gift. Yeah, I know, but I, there's not a way to think about it without making me crazy. Your listeners couldn't see your face. But your face was like, yeah, it's not, right? But at the same time, there's something, we kind of carry this almost like childhood wonder with us, right? And by the way, if people are like, it's not, you know, why is it not a gift? It's not a gift because in the modern world, we have too many things stacked up against us. And that's not a definition of a gift. okay that's we would be able to thrive with a gift right but there is this like we love learning a

lot of us just love learning you know what I'm you know what I decided to do this summer because I don't have enough on my plate I decided to get chickens I decided I'm a chicken person and you know what I'm reading everything I can about chickens I bought a very good chicken And it's arriving in a couple weeks. And I'm going to get chickens. And we're going to figure out this chicken thing. Why? Because that's what ADHD people do.

Right? And if you saw my book pile next to my chair has three books right now that I'm reading. Family Dynamics. It's about it's psychology. mitochondrial function, which is how cells work. and chickens. Those are the three books on my, um, next to my chair. And that I think you could tell I had ADHD just from the books because I have very varied interest and like you. And that's where I think we're talking about it makes life worth living. Like we're, we're interested in

everything. Right? Yeah. I mean, that's, we're curious people. and we are so curious. And I think that's kind of the joy we have when we're living. Now, we don't have that joy when we're trying to do like calendar events. We don't have that joy when we're just trying to do the laundry necessarily. But we kind of do that. And those of us who have ADHD also love being outside. And I bet you've experienced that.

I have a, I found a profession where I'm outside all day long. That's awesome. Yeah. And that's, so how do you feel when you're outside? Alive and hopefully beautifully distracted. Yeah. Right. Alive.

So there's research on this that ADHD brains calm down and are more focused outside and we feel alive. and you know it's really sad a lot of younger people don't get outside enough. I live in Michigan where it's hard to be outside in alive parts of the year because it's so cold, right? And I live in a part of Michigan. We don't even see the sun a lot. So my clients and I have to use sunlamps because we get so sad. But it looks like this time of year, all my clients are outside.

They're all, we're just so happy because we're kind of getting that balance back. You live in somewhere where you have that balance year route. I do. Yeah. So first off, everybody should like, Hawaii might be the most beautiful spot in the world. And all you need do is go outside and look around for a minute. And it's like the earth is giving you a. hug or there's some sort of spiritual being that enters your body.

I love you. You come to Hawaii and visit. If you come out here, I'll buy a couple coffee. You should definitely bring your family and visit out here. That's it. I'm going to Hawaii for a cup of coffee. That's it. And you know what?

That's what ADHD people do. Like that sounds like a good deal. Let's go. Yeah, right. Why not? And I've never been to Hawaii. So, you know, that's. Now you have a reason.

I bet your daughter was a mother. I bet your husband, your daughter, your family. It would probably be a great inspiration to work on your new book. I bet you'd be outside, feel alive. Do you know that's what I say to my husband? I'm like, you know, I have a lot of writing to do, but I can really only do it in sunshine. I should go somewhere. And it is true.

I've written a lot of my book either on my back deck in the summer or going to Florida for us is a quick, easy. plane ride, so hopping down to Florida in the winter. So how does that work? Cameron, like, can you talk a little bit about the writing for someone who has ADHD and someone who has done what you've accomplished? How does that work for you? Do you have a process that inspires you to write or how does that creative process work for someone at your level that has ADHD?

Mm-hmm. You know what I do? I take advantage of my divergent thinking. So I always have a notebook with me. And all right, see your daily life right there. If your listeners have ADHD, trust me, you will not remember it. Let me just, you know, how people, we lie to ourselves like, oh, I'll remember it. No, the answer is no, never.

You won't remember it. So what I do is that notebook is my external hard drive. It's how I interface with the world because I have to remember things. I have a list in here and all kinds of notes. Notes about chickens now, too. But anyway, and anytime an idea comes up of, huh, that has to do with my next book idea. I jot it down in my book and I put a little tiny, I draw a light bulb next to it. And then I go back when I'm ready to start writing, I go back and collect all those little light bulbs.

And then I start to put the light bulbs together. Like, well, these ideas kind of circle around this. These ideas circle around this. And I start to put them together. And then once I'm ready, like, I'm ready to talk, you know, to the publisher about it. We're emailing back and forth. I have a really fleshed out idea now because I just gathered all those little light bulbs together. And then from there, I just write 16 essays.

And that's it. Are those 16 essays off each light bulb or is that like a preheaded chapter or? Once I gathered all the light bulbs together, those are all the, they become chapters. Right. Yeah. And so one, I know I have to do this. Now, I don't get it right, right? Because I'm not great at this influential thing.

So I'll actually be writing going, you know what? This should have been two chapters. I'm trying to do too much here. Or, ah, crap. I didn't even think this. And now I have to write a chapter on this because my mind like yours will leap to another and forget to help others make connections. So fortunately, I have some really good people in my life who will read myself and go,

cool, you miss some things. I'm like, hey, good thanks. I appreciate that. That is incredibly helpful. I really like that. Thank you. Yeah. Nice.

Just start very organically. You know, the other thing I use, I use an app called Scrivener, and I start to put all the light bulbs kind of gathering together. Like, well, these all seem to be about conflict. I'll put all those in there. And then it's kind of like I'm gathering all these together. They just start to make a picture. And sometimes I'm like, I'll read and go, I don't know what the heck I was thinking there. I have to move on.

I mean, not all ideas are good ideas. Right? It is true. How do you feel about language in ADHD? Do you find yourself being distracted sometimes by a trigger word or not trigger in like it makes you feel all crazy? But just sometimes words for me, I can't get past. Someone will say something a certain way, maybe not meaning to you. use a certain word, but I have to go back and be like, you know what that word means? It means

this. So they're probably thinking that. Like, do you find language with some of the people you talk about, like something that they get hung up on? Okay, first of all, I love, I love you because I do the same thing. I'll go, hmm, I didn't use exactly the right word. I wanted this. And then I'll go down that rabbit hole for my own words. And then, and then I'll pick up, sometimes when people use a word that you've used earlier in the conversation, it means they're really linked up with you. I'm like, oh, wow, they're really linked up in this conversation. And then whoops, I'm done another rabbit hole thinking about our relationship and how we're linked up, right? So the ADHD for anything could be, like you and I are sensitive to words. For other people, it could be something in their

five senses. It could be a color that starts that. It could be a sound. It could be a smell. And the key is, whatever the stimulus is, you and I are both. like semantic kind of nerds, but it could be anything that goes, oh, this reminds me of this. And plop, we went down and hopefully we'll come back. So, yeah. So it's combining. So ADHD, I want people to know two things. It kind of, how ADHD affects you depends on your environment and your personality. And so ADHD is a thing, but it kind of interacts with your personality in very specific ways. So I'll leave that for a second. It's also about environment. And it sounds like you have a job where you didn't realize you had ADHD, really, until you read my book.

It's true. And I'm not diagnosed you. Right. Right. But right. And this point, I'd be shocked if you did it. And so what I'm saying is you found such just happy environment where you're not face to face all the time with ADHD. Now you still have some of the dark side of like, oh, why am I never good enough? Or why am I always failing? Right? Those are the dark side.

There are some people living lives where every second their environment is slapping them saying you're not good enough and you're not far enough. And that's rarely the truth. But it's so let me give you a quick example of environment. I have a client who's an accountant and has ADHD. And, you know, he was good at numbers. So everyone said, dude, go into accounting. And so he's like, yeah, I guess so. I'll go into accounting. He is the saddest accountant. He is the saddest accountant on this planet. He just hates his job. It's just so tiki-tacky. It's never finished. He's like, all I do is pass big notebooks back and forth. That's all I do. He's like, it's never ending. And I'm sad. And I hate it. And he makes mistakes. And he's bored.

Right. That's the example of environment being bad. Now, I want to be clear, there are some people who have ADHD who are accountants. And you can do that. But in this case, his environment doesn't line up with error help him. It only points out the negatives of his ADHD. Yeah, some of us, I'm thankful for all of us. But like, you know, it goes back to what you said. Whenever we see somebody that has ADHD come out on top, it's like a win for all of us.

And I can thoroughly understand. Well, I guess I can't thoroughly understand it. But I'm saddened to see someone live in the dark like that and unable to climb out of it. Like that, it must be horrific. It does. And I know because I was there. Mm. Right?

You know, this just dawned on me. And I think you just kind of lit this idea in my head. You know, I always say I wrote this to future clients or to clients I don't know. You know, people who are hurting and people who don't know they have ADHD who feel dumb, who feel dragged. But it just dawned on me, you know, in a way, I wrote it to myself. Sure. Because I was that person. Like, I always felt like a day late and a dollar short.

Why can't I just get my act together? And that's so there's been a lot of personal healing for me in that area. Yeah. I didn't start treating my ADHD until I was in my 40s. you know, after I've raised children. Yeah. Right. So, hey, could I add something?

Of course. If a person's listening, thinking they have ADHD, and if they have biological children, their children have a 50-50 shot of having ADHD too. And so we really want to, like, start looking at the whole family and go, how is ADHD affecting my face? family. Yeah. And that brings us back to the relationship aspect of it. If you're married and have a spouse that doesn't understand, they're probably looking at their kid being like, oh my gosh, my kid has

weird. Gee, son of a gun. Are you kidding me? And it's not fair to them in so many ways. It's really not. And it's not fair to you because maybe you don't understand it, but it's almost up to you as an individual that has it to do a lot of the work to fix it. And it's not fair. And if you have a It'll never be fair, but you're capable of doing it and doing it really well. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, like the airline tells us, put on your own mask first. If you're the parent with ADHD, put on your air mask and figure out your ADHD. And then by all means, help your child. Because kids are growing up with way more pressure. I don't think I would have survived school the way I did with the pressure that my my students that I see have is constant homework, homework, homework.

I was just smart enough in high school not to do homework and to still get bees. And I probably, like some other ADHD folks could kind of talk my way out of things. I was verbal enough. No, not all ADHD people can do that, but some of us can. Right. And, yeah, I just quickly, just very quickly, I remember explaining to my English teacher why I didn't have my assignment done. And I said, well, it's because I didn't understand the connotation. And I went through what I didn't understand.

And he just called my bluff. He goes, listen, if you can use the word connotation, you could have done. this whole work. You just does not to. I was like, okay, mental note, he's going to call my bluff. Okay. All right. Good to know. Yeah. It's fascinating to me. I, um, you know, I read some very, um, not only heartwarming, but some very incredible stories about people with dyslexia and how it's a learning disability. However, some of the most intelligent people in the world become, the great minds that they are because they have dyslexia. And I think there's a parallel to ADHD.

The way in which you have to learn things is incredibly different because you're just zigzagging all over everywhere. But that means you've covered all these different things to get, instead of both from A to B, you went to Z, X, P, J, Y. And along the way, you've picked up these incredible ideas. You've seen the scenery. You've taken the scenic route. So by the time you finally get to B, you have to.

have more information and you have more knowledge. And if you can understand that, it becomes an incredible way to not only rationalize, but to feel good about some of the things that you may feel bad about. You nailed it. You nailed it. Because we don't have a choice for us to learn something. We have to be deep learners. Yes. That means we have to create this whole constellation in our head of how everything's related if we're going to learn it. We're Whereas everyone else, Neuropycles, can just learn A to B, C, D, and they can learn that simple line.

We have to learn a whole constellation in order to learn A, B, C, D. Right? I'm going to cry, yeah. Yeah. And so deep learning is our only choice. We can't be surface learners because, oh, by the way, did I mention we have poor short-term memories?

And so for us learning, that's our only option, right? And so, yeah, you said it perfectly. So remember, Einstein, right? We're pretty sure he had ADHD. He never really learned to tie his shoes. He didn't know his left from his right. I mean, he was scattered as all get out. And yet he, people are still trying to unravel his theories. Right? Da Vinci is another classic person with ADHD. And so there are these people through history who changed how we think, well, literally about time and space in Einstein's, right? Einstein's example. Time and space, yeah.

Yeah. And yet that guy couldn't manage his own time and space. And so, you know, ADHD folks can be world changers. it's just we get so bogged down by the mundane and we get so tired carrying the mundane daily task and that's that's why I wrote the book to say yeah you suck at the mundane task whoops can I say that I'm sorry of course you see whatever you want the book is called your brain is not broken the book is called your brain is not broken the book is called your brain is not broken folks go out there and pick it up it's beautiful and it's fun and it's fun and it's

it's functional and we have barely scratched the surface of what's in there. There's a lot, not only of anecdotal stories, not only stories of people that Dr. Tamara has helped, but there's a lot of functional things in there that you can apply to your life. She's gone out of her way to tell her story to help you. And I hope people pick it up. Tamara, you have things to do. You have places to go and another things to see. I could talk to you for another two. hours. I hope you'll come back sometime and we can continue to talk about new things. Absolutely. Anytime you ask, I'll be there because you're fun to talk with. I like my people, right? I like talking with my people. I'd give you a hug if I could right now. I really enjoyed it.

Thank you. And all the links will be down below. Is there anything else? Where can people find you? And is there anything else that you want to leave us with? I just want if if you do, if you've been listening going, oh gosh, I think I have ADHD. It really is. better to know. And so there are great organizations out there that can help you. One of them is called Ada, ADDA, and they're adults with ADHD. Another organization is Chad, children with ADHD. Those are great places to start for resources for you. There's a magazine I love. I'm not getting paid to promote them. It's just I love it. It's called AdD. A-D-D-D-U-D-E.com.

And that's, those are some resources. So just start learning about this. Not everyone has to be a nerd that I am reading books on chickens, but just start to learn to get, get to know your brain. That's really well said. And I appreciate it. And it's been a real pleasure. And thank you for the book.

Your brain is not broken. Links are down below. And I got to learn a lot. and I'm really thankful to talk to you. So we'll talk again soon. I'm so grateful to talk to you. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great rest of your day,

and I hope the chickens are awesome. I'm looking forward to it. Okay, Dr. Tamara, thank you for your time. Have a wonderful day. All right, thanks. Bye-bye.