TrueLife - Ehren Cruz - Rites of Passage

Starting point is 00:00:01 Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

Starting point is 00:00:40 The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope you got to wake up next to the person you love. I hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing. I'm so thankful to have such a great guest for you guys today.

Starting point is 00:01:20 And I'm going to introduce to you the one-only Aaron Cruz. He's a man who has an incredible passion for positive change, who cares deeply about creating, transforming trauma into a position of lived experience for individuals, families, and communities. He's an award-winning producer, a high-performance team builder, founder of the spark, a groundbreaking coaching approach that, utilizes rights of passage, immersive experiences to dramatically elevate awareness, embodiment, and impact.

Starting point is 00:01:52 He's a historian anthropologist. He's certified by CTA, ICF, and probably the most positive, incredible thing, to me anyways, that he's a loving husband and a proud father of three. Aaron, there's way more I could say, but I'm so thankful for your, thank you for being here today. How are you? Hey, I'm doing awesome, George. It's an honor to be a part of the True Life podcast, man. Thank you having me on.

Starting point is 00:02:13 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, man. So I was going to, when I thought about doing the intro today, I was like, gosh, there's so much cool stuff in here I could put. But I thought it might really benefit the people if they could hear your origin story about how you kind of became to, came to this path, how you kind of came to become the guy that you are today. Would you mind sharing that? Yeah, absolutely. You know, so goodness, I'll probably go back to college in this one then. So I was studying anthropology all throughout college and my college experience, you know.

Starting point is 00:02:42 I grew up in New Jersey, a rather urban, fast-paced lifestyle. You know, I had a lot of cool upbringing there with my family and friends. You know, one thing is I did get exposed to compounds of various forms very early on. You know, it's part of the rave culture, part of the festival music culture. So all those things were kind of very influential for me. But when I once started going to school and I graduated Western University and I then started in my graduate program, it was an anthropology at the time. And I was looking at South American, Central American,

Starting point is 00:03:11 Mexican American, you know, Mexican ancient tradition, looking at these cultures there, civilizations that are utilizing plant medicine compounds, ceremony, sacred ritual. And they were able to form these long-term, like, highly symbiotic relationships with the environment around them, cultivating different tribal lineages that were all infused into an epicenter that had advanced astronomy, advanced philosophical underpings, archaeology that just blew the mind and where at the center, Teo Noctal, flesh of the gods, you know, sitting around. And so I was observing it from more of an ivory tower, academic perspective and like, oh, that's very curious, you know. And then also looking at the conquistadors, the missionaries that were

Starting point is 00:03:54 coming in and they persecuted, you know, different aspects of their traditions, mostly religious and spiritual traditions. But public enemy number one, Teo Noctal, bless of the gods. We do not like plants. We do not like the eating or imbibing with plants that are inspiring visions or transcend an awareness of any form or communion with deity or anything like that. So I found that to be really just really kind of curious. What is it about this ceremonial plan? What is it about the medicine that was so destructive or perceivably so? So I ended up actually at a music festival, I'd say back in 2008, took a larger than therapeutic dose of LSD at the time. And it really immediately erupted into this state of more of a unified awareness perspective.

Starting point is 00:04:43 The errand that had to be the intellectual and the funny one and the, you know, the one that danced a certain way and all these different things, he just started really melting away. It started really dissipating from my existence and all around me, the matter if I was looking at a girl and a ballerina two or a big old strong guy with a guinea tea or whatever it was, everybody, I saw the same soul signature they want to be cared for, appreciated. They wanted to be celebrated. They want to be a part of community. But they fundamentally not sure how to go about that. They felt awkward in themselves. They felt very, very sensitive and self-conscious. They weren't sure of what their purpose or who they were claiming to be. And they saw it in my eyes and I saw something there. And I just kept getting these faces overall. Like, whoa, wow, you're looking at me in an interesting way. But that became an unfolding. I had, you know, a transpersonal experience, mythical origins, powerful revelations of names. natural world breathing the force around me, feeling myself as a child of the universe, a him. I didn't remember my name at a certain point for a good two to three hours.

Starting point is 00:05:44 Just, you know, he that is on the hill with the music, you know. And so it was profound. It was the most transformative experience I'd save my life at the time, like up to this day. And part of it I recognized, you know, I felt utterly isolated in academia where I didn't have a voice of expression. And I handed in my master's thesis and I had 200 citations. And my mentor at the time was like, you're using too much of your own opinions here, Aaron.

Starting point is 00:06:10 You have your own thoughts. I'm like, my own thoughts. How dare you? Regurgitating everyone else's thoughts. You know, but, you know, that stuff felt repressed there. And, you know, all these different aspects of my life were just like, these aren't lining up. But so there was a big, a big falling out, a big transition there.

Starting point is 00:06:28 But also the same token, it was quite terrifying. having that type of Gnostic, revelatory, expanded awareness, having no, nobody that I know that ever had this phenomenon before, you know, outside of biblical texts and reading on Kundalini Awakening, there's certain things that are so esoteric that, yeah, falling out. I had some narcissism after that. I had some, you know, isolation from others after that. I had some, a whole bunch of things fell out.

Starting point is 00:06:55 And I realized that, like, hey, over time, there needs to be some real care, some real support. There has to be some real devotion to people that are having these emergent, spiritual, emergent emergency experiences, transforming themselves, but having no landing pad as to how to synthesize this into their life, you know, without just Molotov cocktails everywhere they go. So that's kind of origin story of me, at least having my revelatory awakening through psychedelics. From there, you know, I became an event producer using radical creativity to create and buster experiences. I started using anthogenic sacramentally with ritual and Kabbalism and hermeticism and really distilling down a purpose and tension sitting in there, learning and growing from the muse of the medicine. So it was a big long trajectory from that path,

Starting point is 00:07:41 but that lightning bolt still got a syng on me from that experience there that's now a part of my purposes in life. Man, it's such a cool story. And I can tell by the way you describe it, how profound it was. Like there's certain things that people feel. And it's this weird sort of, I describe it as like the terror before the sacred because it is so isolating. But you're in the presence of something so beautiful. It's, and I know people use the word ineffable all the time.

Starting point is 00:08:10 But there's something there that's just, it makes your skin get goosebumps. And you're like, and you're so right because it's very easy to slip into the holy man syndrome of like, I got to help these people. They don't get it. I feel how sad they are. And then you realize, wait a minute, that's how I feel. I'm the one that's sad. And there's no framework around it. Or at least the framework had been isolated from the sacrament for so long.

Starting point is 00:08:39 People got the sacrament. They brought it here. And they had no rails to be on. They had no lineage back to the teachers. They had no sacred rites of passage. They had no elders to show them the way. And I think that. that while I might be getting ahead of myself here, like, when I hear you explain it and I read

Starting point is 00:08:57 the bio, I'm like, this guy gets it. He's had the lived experience. He's felt how isolating it was. And now he's going and trying to help other people by building some rails around it so that they can have their own transformation. I just want to say, thank you. I love that there. But maybe we can jump back a little bit to. So you go from, you go from being a producer and figuring out these things. Like when I say to you rights of passage, like first off, how do you define that? And how do you become a person who becomes confident to create a right of passage for somebody else? That's a great question. Absolutely, George. Ultimately, the concept of initiation, genuine initiation is largely lost on much of our culture and tradition, you know, outside of

Starting point is 00:09:42 marriage, birth of a child, you know. And even then it's not even as a sanctum of. is one would hope, you know, in that way. But really stepping into a place where your body, your mind and spirit, your kind of trinity of belief, what you feel, what you think, what you believe comes into a convergence point. And then it's tested with a true sense of challenge. Can that essence of what you have held as real? Can that withstand the burden of a deep expansive foray into a trial of the soul? Can you actually emerge? through that space, holding on to those same limitations, beliefs, or paradigms of safety that has been either culturally passed down to you or socially accepted or peerage or mentorship

Starting point is 00:10:28 said, this is your parameters of existence? And then you're placed into a circumstance where, is it? Is that where they are? Is that who you are? Is that the genuine capacity of your deepest being is within that bubble, within that construct? And that's something that's really within indigenous traditions, within ceremonial traditions, has been something that has been periodically challenged and challenged in a kind of a scaffolded way with great intentionality, with great kind of consideration. Here's wisdom. Here's experiences from those who came before you. Here are those who have endured this test of self. Here are parameters of how they live. Here's what they emanate as beings now that they've experienced this experience.

Starting point is 00:11:11 So you're even getting aspects of the signature of what those initiations are, typically, through your communion in the village or in the tribe or in the community dynamic. Now we're kind of brought into a position where you're not going to get that organic connectivity. You're not going to get that opportunity. So you have to almost extend yourself beyond the known, beyond the comfort of realms, and strike out and find in different facets of your life, where are those that can guide a space or a power? that can nourish this internal drive for Gnosis, for wisdom, yearning, that's birthing through me. I know that I'm beyond this particular job. I know that I'm beyond this masculine archetype of the hard work. Like, there's more to me.

Starting point is 00:11:55 There's depth here. You know, so that's where I feel like from my experience, being deeply involved in the Kabbalistic tradition has been very, very helpful. Because if you look at the Etz Chaim, the tree of life, the 10 Siferov of the tree of life, it's a beautiful ancient system, some time of Abraham. really, you know, since the AD and then the time of 1400 AD is when it really started growing its true roots. But when you look at this from the top down as a creation element, from the essence of omnipresent awareness comes out from fountain and fountain of complexity, forces

Starting point is 00:12:26 and forms, masculine and feminine aspects of creation, until we, the final vessel, absorb that in the kingdom and earth. But all the potencies all the way back to the omnipresent awareness and this most undisturbed richness and state exist within us. They are birthed through us in this manifested experience. And then moving up the tree to the top, that is the path of initiation to reclaiming, because this world is about free choice, reclaiming our connectivity to these different aspects of creation back into unified awareness and a continuum of peace. So finding that there, I found it be very, very powerful and instrumental.

Starting point is 00:13:03 So earth, first, sipher off down the bottom, are you a steward of this world? Are you steward of your body? Are you connected to those other and respecting of their body? Do you nourish the vessel? Do you understand that you are a living vibration and that which is within you can only hold the nauseous, the internal wisdom can only hold

Starting point is 00:13:21 if the frequency of your body can genuinely maintain that awareness? And then you move up to the mind, the foundation you saw it. We are one step from the foundation. We're one step from a mind. Are you accountable for your thinking? Are you genuinely in alignment with

Starting point is 00:13:34 what I think becomes reality? So persistent, you know, thinking about lysaceous behavior, thinking about the neuroses and the addictions and all that is actually calling it in. The universe doesn't understand negatives. It understands repetition and patterns. So if you're thinking of the same thing, no, no, no, all you're saying is yes, yes, yes, because that's what the view of the hologram that you're permusing on and continuously contemplating on is. So second rights of passage initiation on that path is honor your thoughts. They are as important as anything in your life thinking about things positively, constructively, creatively, creatively, open-endedly can then create openness and abundance in the universe to allow you to then manifest an expanded vision into reality.

Starting point is 00:14:17 So these different things that I had learned deeply from that and as an alchemist as well, which alchemy at the end of the day is your inner conditions, when you transmute your inner conditions of fine peace, buoyancy, well-being, vibrancy, then you perceive a world. that is an equal frequency to that reality. And internally, you believe in the potentiality of different interdimensional beings, different connectivity to this world around us, the universe around us, expansive mystical ways. Well, then it becomes accessible. It's the biology of belief. That's what we believe is what we are able to then perceive and interface with in our reality.

Starting point is 00:14:52 So those two things have allowed me to learn and distill down over a decade of very, very devotional work there, different ways to create paradigms or structures or arcs as I call them the spark, for people to step into, well, where are your challenge points of your reality? What are you hoping to deepen in those spaces? Utilizing an anthiogem, a very, very mindful process to then step into those with intentionality and expand and explore those realities and come back then with a synthesized view of, okay, this is where I thought my limitations are. This is where I've grown into. And now it's time to synthesize myself from a new foundation. So there's a little bit of a roundabout answer there, but that's kind of how I stepped

Starting point is 00:15:32 into the work and what has influenced me to be a servant of that type of work. Would you say that that is not only a system that you use for other people, but that's the same system that you've used for yourself? That's what it sounds like to me. It's like, hey, this is the path that I walked on. Let me show you how to do it. Is that accurate? Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing that's beautiful about it's like, I don't necessarily have to go to people and say, okay, time to learn Hebrew and here's the first entry to the path. Like, you know, it's, it's, It's way more homocious. It's more about I understand what frequency of lesson you're hoping to commune with.

Starting point is 00:16:09 Are you looking for compassionate awareness in your life and having that container for others and starting to lay down that judgment and open up to a sense of acceptance of others on their journey of earnest trying and recalibrating that. Okay, then I understand where that is in my inner framework. And so I can distill down then, okay, here is a pathway of learning, of support, of resources, of challenges, of questions. of reflections, all these different things to incubate on with support over a month or two months. And then you come to that crux point of a moment where you're going to step into a journey. And then I can support that. But yeah, through my own experiences in my own particular spiritual path and also cultivating festivals and events where these are paradigms and containers for ecstasis.

Starting point is 00:16:55 They are genuinely made to encapsure and enrapture the senses to create through the confluence of art, music, ceremony, culture, communitas, you know, the bringing together people. Here is an epicenter of radical transformation and you're seeing it all around you. And we know festivals have plenty of amphitheogens, you know, it's a part of the fabric of that culture, you know, that of the nature. So that's something as well that like I threw over time is creating ecosystems and conditions that help to cultivate this rising sense of growth and rising sense of emergence into one's own initiation.

Starting point is 00:17:29 It's so beautifully put. And I love, I love beginning to touch on this idea of festivals. You know, when I think of a festival, I think of time. And there's one of my favorite authors is Mersailles I. You wrote beautifully about theology and, in my opinion, like the psychedelic environment. And one part that I always go to and what touched upon me with your idea of festivals is there's different ways we can experience time. And like a festival is like sacred time. If I think about a time where my dad, so my dad, my dad,

Starting point is 00:18:01 dad got married. His dad got married. So when I get married, it's almost like we shared that same time. And when you go to a festival, it's like that time kind of stops. If you just think about time in a different way, you are experiencing sacred time with somebody else when you're in a ceremony, because that ceremony has been going on for generations. And now it's your turn to take part in that time. And then the time you go to work is like a, it's like a, you know, it's a different kind of time. It's almost like you're not really experiencing and it's not a sacred time. It's just more like time to get up and you're not really your authentic self during that time. You are the culmination of society's beliefs that are thrust upon you at that time. When you go to those festivals,

Starting point is 00:18:47 you know, you really get the chance to be born into yourself in time. I'm just curious, what's your take on time like? Have you heard that before? Does that make sense? Oh, I does. Absolutely. I really love that position there because, I mean, my favorite band from Fastful, STS-9, they are Soundtrived Sector 9, and there's a day at a time in the Mayan calendar, the one day that everything stops, and we recreate the universe, it's called, and that band plays on that day and then recreate the universe. So it's pretty awesome. So, yeah, we're talking about time, and it brings you back also to Jerry said when they play

Starting point is 00:19:25 Darkstar, and they're like, hey, Darkstar is always, playing. We just tune into it at the sacred time when we're on the stage and we listen for the Dark Star and we translate it to you again and again and again and again. But we're not creating the Dark Star is and we decide to step into it together. You know, so that's that element. That's how always precede the festivals. This is a training ground. This is an opportunity to you to step out of the contemporary arc of your life to move into a place where people are deeply intentional about discovering their own radical creative self. You know, they want to learn. They want to dress and how they truly feel the muse that moves. They want to listen to that which makes their body move and their

Starting point is 00:20:06 eyes tear. They want to learn from elders and yoga teaching people that are there that can exchange their gifts of what they have to offer. They want to eat some foods and sit with their friends and contemplate life. But it is. It's in its own removed, eat like times system that's there. You nourish, you discover, you explore. And then you go. went back in. Now, not all festivals are created equal in that intentionality, I must say, you know, Coachella versus your envisioned in Costa Rica or something, very, very different gatherings. But at the same time, if you go back to time and memorial, the festivals was the time of the great gathering of the great exchange where all different leaders, all different spiritual teachers,

Starting point is 00:20:45 all different musicians, artists would come together and say, hey, this is what we have up to now. Here is our offering of what we've learned now. What's next? Can we decide on that? Can we choose what that is. So people always just talk about festivals and escapism. We're like, no, train, learn, grow, soak it in. Then when you reinsert back into contemporary movement of society, you have a certain glow, you have a certain perspective. You have more lenses, more facets of the diamond to work from in your own sense of self. And people feel that. They start get drawing into the, the, what you're cultivating inside of like, huh, you seem lighter, brighter, excited. Tell me about that. where's that, where's that, and then they start thinking, where's that crack in mind?

Starting point is 00:21:29 Where's that, where's that place that I can go to, my refuge, my sanctuary, my place of distillation of time where I can reinvent or reinvigorate and step back in, absolutely. It's beautiful. You know, what is that thing that people feel like? When you're around someone that's full of spirit, whether it's at a festival or sometimes you sit down to a conversation, you're like, wow, I feel this thing. And it's almost alien a little bit because maybe it's because we haven't felt it in a long time. Maybe we've never cultivated it in ourself.

Starting point is 00:22:00 Or maybe it is alien. I don't know. But how do you explain that feeling? You touched upon it in that last that conversation point that you had. But how do you explain that feeling? What is that thing that we share between us? Well, you know, it's interesting. So the idea of communitas, that word is a Greek word.

Starting point is 00:22:18 And it is the essence of spirit that's connected when people come together in honesty and an honest exchange. show like when you are together with somebody, so first, you know, you have a witnessing. You have a witnessing of another. They're perceiving, you know, something that you're hoping to orate, generate, offer. And that creates a potency because there's a witness and exchange, a connectivity there. And then you're also, you're kind of co-painting a creative potential there. Now, there's something else, though, that I think you're speaking toward. And that is, you know, that is where someone is holding a frequency of presence.

Starting point is 00:22:54 and a frequency of surrender into their life experience where they can genuinely be in trust of letting you feel their full self. You know, and that's something that really happens sometimes powerfully over the two or three days of the festival where someone softens and softens and sees so much and smiles and laugh so much. You're just like, I don't got any, I don't got any mask here. You know, like, I'm just, I am just touched. You know what I am just where I'm at and I'm ready to connect with you.

Starting point is 00:23:22 And here we go. And for those that cultivate this in lifestyle, you know, I'm a devotee in lifestyle, like to cultivate this space of deep surrender, deep trust, deep faith and the ability to navigate from an intuitive resonance field in life. You know, I have, you know, I have a task list like everybody else and I have things that I'm accomplishing. But when I show for the thing, all the expectations really go out the window. Like we are in a place of present creativity. I'm really kind of in love with the moment of the space. And so I'm giving myself to offer in devotion to this moment what it can be. And when you feel that with another person, they're not like, oh, I got a 10 o'clock.

Starting point is 00:24:03 And, you know, this is interesting. But I kind of want to check my phone because this is not. You know, like there's kind of things like that going on, then it really, that frequency of presence shifts a lot. But when you can sit with somebody in their heart, that's something that really calls them home. Beyond what they say, it's what they feel. in that sense of presence. And that really can do more across political divides, social divides, all those things.

Starting point is 00:24:25 It's that sense of emanation that can really bring people in because it's a signature. They recognize even if they don't hold. It's like, wait a second, I know that. That feels like home. That feels, hmm, what is that? You know, and that really calls people in closer. It's interesting that you put it that way. When I think of surrender and I think of spirit, I often think of the word sacrifice that kind of follows that.

Starting point is 00:24:47 And it seems to me that, you know, this word sacrifice. It's seems to be all over the ideas of spirituality or sometimes festivals, but rites of passage. It's almost like, and it's so broad because sometimes you're sacrificing a part of yourself. Sometimes people that are healing their trauma are trying to work past things that they have sacrificed. Sometimes we look at the people that we lost as a sacrifice. What do you think is the relationship between sacrifice and spirituality? I know it's kind of a broad question, but you can take it any angle you like. Yeah, that's a great question.

Starting point is 00:25:19 you know. So I think surrender means two different things in the East and West is kind of where I think I want to start that. It's like in the in the West when you consider surrender, you're considering almost the relinquishing of power like lay down your arms. You're now under the subjugation of control of and other whatever that be like, you know, surrender, give it up. In the East, it's like surrender means like I am surrendering my perception of control. Like I am my assumption. Assumption of control is now surrendered. I am not in control. I am surrendering to the fact that something greater than that is moving through the vessel and through creation is actually in the reins. And so my ability to have to understand everything or control everything or even need to know is let go. And for some reason, something really powerful happens. When you let go in that way, then you start to understand more, more than the mind can actually necessarily,

Starting point is 00:26:19 encapsulate or maybe equally partition off and say this is my working knowledge of, but there's a sense of knowingness or understanding that brings a peace because you let go over reins of something that never had rains up to begin with. Now, that can be perceived of a sacrifice. I am sacrificing my control over these things or my sacrificing my ability to have surety over that this relationship works like this and this person is going to be there for me like this and this is how my house has to be run to be right and you're like and if you let go of that you open your hands all and say I am now surrendering and honoring that this can all change we are rivers we are we're in flow with life we are in continuous transformation by thinking that anything is held

Starting point is 00:27:05 that is uniquely ours that usually blows up in one way or another so the sacrifice is almost an assumption is something you never had to begin with you know the thing you know you know That's so true. Your sacrifice is something that wasn't even yours to even sacrifice most of the time, you know, or are you considering that in the beginning with? So it's really tricky how that navigates. Now, I can say that what you can be devotional discipline with is then you start to juxtapose, well, am I sacrificing the double fudge Sunday because I have a freedom to eat the Dutch club's other thing?

Starting point is 00:27:37 I could, and my sacrifices six hours of my favorite sitcom because I can do what I want, you know, like, and I can have that environment thing. but then you look at, well, is freedom doing everything you want, or is freedom actually honoring the gift and expanding, exploring through it? Exploring through the gift, exploring through what you hold, you know, exploring through what you came to your to accomplish. You know, so it's a really interesting thing because, you know, some places, yeah, I do sometimes sacrifice some of the things that I would like, I would say, I put it, maybe that mindset, but then I realize it's like, well, actually, though, when I engage with the thing, because the mind always tries to tell you, all you want to do is become. You just want to be comfortable, Aaron, just chill. Like, of course, but then once you start, I don't want to chill. I never really just want to chill.

Starting point is 00:28:20 What are you talking about, mind? What are you talking about? Let's get back to it, you know? So it's so funny, though. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I think that there is value to looking at things and saying what is in deepest alignment genuinely and moving those directions. Because a lot of times people come into psychedelic journeys for healing, they're like, I want to get rid of these patterns and habits and ways of being that I want to let go of.

Starting point is 00:28:41 I want to almost sacrifice them up, put them back. into the earth, you know, for fertilizer, create the space, and then reconnect with more things there. And so it depends how you use that terminology. But I would say, you know, keeping the mindset that we are not necessarily always in control or holding onto things to let them go. We can choose what aligns, what resonates. We can look at the view of what our path would be with one way or another. But I think more of it is accepting more, as opposed to losing more, accepting that you're more. Flip that, invert that.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Actually, can you expand to the greatness you are? Can you do spread those wings to the awesomeness you can create and keep widening that? We don't need to get rid of too much all the time, but we need to accept more, I think, in our lives. That's really well said. I love the fact that you started off by defining the terms from two different angles. It seems that that happens a lot. We lose a lot in translation, especially when we're coming together from different cultures or different continents. Words like discipline, sacrifice, surrender.

Starting point is 00:29:42 It's very easy for two people to go down two different paths right when they first meet and they start using this shared terminology with different meanings like that. And, you know, when I think about that, we stay on the topic of language for a moment, and I tie in the idea of festivals. One of the most poetic and romantic things I always think about is the Elucinian Mysteries. I love to read about that and how, you know, emperors would go with slaves and everybody had the right to go to this festival. And in my mind, I've created this idea of an amphitheater

Starting point is 00:30:14 where you're sitting around with people and you've taken some sort of, you know, heightening awareness, heightening substance. And you're watching Persephone and Demeter and this child dies. And even though there's no words exchanged, I can look over at you, a stranger that I don't know. And I have goosebumps and you have goosebumps.

Starting point is 00:30:32 And we see the same thing, man, for the first time in our lives. We're seeing it together. And that bonds us in a way that no words can. And I'm wondering, it seems to me, like, I think that that's what you're doing. And that's why where there's so stoked to get to see and talk to you is because I've read about what you're doing. And I automatically equated it with my vision of what's happening there. So maybe we can talk a little bit about what you're doing in ceremonies. But before we get there, maybe you could address the idea of the felt presence of the other and observing something together.

Starting point is 00:31:06 Does that kind of make sense? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that you brought up the Alicinia Mysteries. Yeah, I do. That is the penultimate ceremonial container of rites of passage for an entire civilization for 2,000 years, you know? Absolutely. And so in that way, too, two things, it looks at the power of intentional craft around a container. How profound that can be. Socrates shared, I believe, is like, it wasn't philosophy or theology or democracy or our warfare perress. the Ellocinian Mysteries, which is the heart of the Thea and Greece, like, you make a festival so good that they say that. Like, that is, that's the power of what these containers hold.

Starting point is 00:31:46 Absolutely. And you then think about, you're going into an initiatory theater. You're going in there with all walks of life. And they have the secret of immortality. And it's held so tight-lipped that, you know, the penalties, death outside of this theater, like literally to share what is revealed. So they go in, they imbibe on the kukyon. They have this profound vision, elevated experience of the ceremonial theater of acting out creation.

Starting point is 00:32:14 And as you're saying there, there is something to be said. And great shows, contemporary great shows artists do this as well, is they create an archetypal experience that is so composite of all these motifs of death and rebirth, of revelation of the divine relationship, of the inward growth or nauseous of the self. of the Phoenix death, you know, like all these things are brought to the force so pronouncedly that everybody there starts to almost attune to the muse that's being presented, this voice, this logos that is there. And in their own world, they're going through a scenario of how they culturally or how they can interpret that message in them. And they might be doing it in their mind with friends and loved ones, or they may be doing it. If there's a mystic mind out there with angels and demons or or with mythological beings or deities or fay or depending on what your

Starting point is 00:33:09 orientation is, you're reenacting the logos or the muse presented in your own way. So that it leaves room for everybody to be simultaneously initiated in their own experience with a frequency that is similar. Now, everybody has the same exact vision, but they have a sense of what that narrative is. It's drawing them inward. They're considering things. There's lamentation in the music. Oh, it's bringing them to a place of heartfelt crisis and nostalgia.

Starting point is 00:33:37 Then it rises up into a bittersweet. And they remember their dear friends and allies along the way. And then it triumphantly peaks and they're like, I am an avatar and I am reborn. I'm ready to, I'm ready to be here. You know, like, and so you can hear that in the muse of the entire experience. And so that way of creating that, I think is profound. It's as old as time. It's our way to how do we explain these cycles of civilization and with,

Starting point is 00:34:02 stand the dusty pages that are blown away, we create this ceremonial theater and we create these situations. And that's what I was always doing as a festival producer is like, how can I bring in these different traditions, frame them in a flow across the schedule. Four stages are doing this at all times. And then the parade goes off and the fireworks peak and this person plays jazz and this person plays fun. And all of a sudden there's like a moment that's like a crackle occurs. And it's like every, you can feel the sense of release. Everyone's like, I'm no longer tracking this. I am just present and I am in the flow.

Starting point is 00:34:37 Like I am now riding the wave of sensation of what the magic is here. And I'm listening to my inner self on how to tune and navigate. So whether that's happening an individual journey in a larger ecstatic experience, there's that moment of surrender once again, as trust in that innate capacity we have to adapt and shift and flow. And of birthing into something greater. something greater than you stepped into and on the front end. I think one thing that is amazing that you have probably experienced that most people haven't,

Starting point is 00:35:14 and I'm sure everybody has their own unique experiences, but I want to throw this out at you. You get to experience it on a level that's almost third person because you're a person is facilitating it. You're participating in it. And you're also watching it. Like, what is that like? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:29 Yeah. I mean, that's what I think makes the most powerful. So I could even shift this a little bit into a ceremonial cultivation of creation because I think that's where it really becomes even more pronounced. You know, from the festival perspective, that's so true. I mean, I have been touched deeply by festivals to a place where I've taken aspects of like, that's amazing. Let's bring that. And then cultivate it into my version of this alchemical stew that is this iteration of a festival. And as I'm exploring there and I'm thinking about, wow, people are moving through this experience.

Starting point is 00:35:58 where are they going to go next? What can happen? How can I position things to enliven and enrich and bring this to a four? Now, that really, I think, happens experientially in the ceremonial container into an entirely other dynamic because there, there's still even in a festival environment. There's a lot of outliers, a lot of erroneous things that can happen. That's why it's a little wild less. It's not for everybody.

Starting point is 00:36:23 I don't go across saying that everybody should do psychedelics into a festival. It is an intense environment. it's a frontier, you have to take a lot of discretion over the self, safety around the people that you're with, honoring of the true needs of the body in an extraneous environments. Like, there's a lot of things to consider when moving into that space to ensure that you are hail and whole to have that type of experience. But in a ceremonial framework of a container, this is something that like when I started moving into the microcosm of crafting these experiences, I really feel the potency of what you're

Starting point is 00:36:53 talking about there. It's like I, from my experiences of however many journeys I've had. have with many, many compounds served by beautiful facilitators and sometimes rogue and on my own and doing my own initiations, some of which that I felt were wise at the time and some were not, were actually kind of disruptive and fracturing and I had to pick myself up in pieces, you know, and so did my family for a little bit, you know, like so things like that have occurred. But when I'm now cultivating a deeply intentional ceremonial container and I'm looking at the rhythm of someone's life that I'm working with together and we're asking these deep

Starting point is 00:37:28 questions about their own family, relationships, trauma, their belief structures, where they're hoping to expand, what they're wanting to let go of, who they see themselves as truly being. And I'm synthesizing this in my mind. And I'm looking at my ceremonial dynamic. I'm looking at my instruments. And I use a lot of sacred fragrances, olebonum, frankincense, cedar, mur, you know, cedar, you know, cedar, smell that's like the fresh forest on a beautiful day. Frankencence, it's like the sun shining on a beautiful morning.

Starting point is 00:37:55 Like, thinking about what are the conditions with medicine? and rattle and drum and rainstick and all these things that I can create for an ecosystem to meet them in their odyssey of their internal journey as an ally, create texture, create an artistry in this experience that really activates their inner muse, that gets their deep, innocent curiosity alive and that sense of things have to be a certain way to fade a little bit, and then create an architecture through a very carefully curated soundtrack track of music and empowering language and seeing when you're very, very open and susceptible, very, very considerative when you say things and why and how to someone that's in a

Starting point is 00:38:38 particular state. So understanding where there's empowering language or an alliance language that's set in different things in that condition that help to nurture a greater potential for that breakthrough, for that opportunity to have that revelation experience. So that's where I've really come to understand the power of the container. Now, I definitely honor the therapeutic approach in which there is a clinical setting and there's safety there and there's a protocol. I mean, I think ethically, it's a very, very well-done orchestrated maps protocol, others that are coming online with really solid protocols. I really appreciate that.

Starting point is 00:39:14 The one component, I think that there is missing from that. And it's not by fault of anyone known because it's a difficult skill to cultivate at the end of the day is the artistry of a genuine ceremonial facilitator that is listening to the language of the song. being sun in a journey is understanding how do I then create different conditions with infusing my own my own craft and my own deep sense of knowing of where they are. I could feel somebody and they're like, oh, they're in the perinatal rebirth right now. You know, I can, and here you go. How do I welcome them in with solidarity and truth and trust and safety? What do I need to do that? Like these different things, I think, are some things that are really powerful and vibrant in the ceremonial container that is unique to that particular container that, that

Starting point is 00:39:58 really could help work people through the deeper transpersonal rights of passage states into a framework of embodiment that can be really quite profound. So that's the space that I found to be a condition that I'm really juiced in right now where I'm working toward. That's fascinating to think about. How do you is that's, you know, a lot of the times lived experience is in fact the best teacher. And I'm wondering, like, that's such a powerful position to be in.

Starting point is 00:40:27 And it requires a lot of responsibility to be that person because there's a lot of temptation there. There's a lot of intoxication there. Just being in that presence. Like it's a lot of responsibility. How have you learned to deal with that? Yeah, that's a great question. In fact, you know, that's one of the things that I think is the most challenging and precarious nature of that ceremonial dynamic. You know, you have someone there that is incredibly vulnerable in an,

Starting point is 00:40:57 incredibly intimate position. They're raw, they're open, sometimes disoriented, you know, in different ways and as they're trying to navigate through what their belief is and where they are. And you then have such a sacred, I think, space of can you respect the depth of what that is? Now, I think from my perspective, that's what makes the experiential psychedelic experience absolute essential. For people that think that they can hold this space and they have not gone through

Starting point is 00:41:30 their own deep work, I don't even know to tell you. I don't even know to begin that conversation because you can't be on going through somewhere. I'm like,

Starting point is 00:41:39 oh, I think they're on perinatal matrix three. I think I've read this in page 86 of way of psychonaut. Hold on a second here. I got to see what I'm going to do. You have to feel the gravity of how important that is.

Starting point is 00:41:50 Even if you haven't gone through all those initiation spaces, the seriousness, the subtle nature of care, the compassion, it has to be genuine. It has to touch you to feel like I want to hold that space. Now, on the second half of that is, you know, when you're looking at the ability to really process through what people are moving through, it's a lot. You know, I live in the alchemical kitchen all the time. And it's not an easy life.

Starting point is 00:42:18 You know, it's not something that I, you know, doing sessions twice a week for a year. It's a lot. You know, people, people train for three months or six months to just get ready to go with you for a day when you're doing it twice in a week, you know. So it is a lifestyle. What has come to firm solidity for me is the four agreements are very, very important for me. I'm not sure if people that are familiar with the four agreements, Toltec wisdom, you know, at the end of the day, is that impeccability with with who I am or at least a wild earnestness to be there, you know, in that place, not making assumptions about anybody's path and leaving judgment and checking it at the, door. You know, I've had people that have been Baptist Bible Belt, 70-something year old come in and have a beautiful and enriched, mystical, profound experience that challenges what they've ever thought and you would

Starting point is 00:43:05 never think is possible. But if you held a certain prescriptive analysis of who they are and the type of ceremony you had to hold because it's them and not giving them the full bandwidth of what you can do, because whatever that is, then it wouldn't have allowed that opportunity to occur. It wouldn't have out that blossoming. You know, so not making assumptions about others is, is incredibly important that not personalizing things. That's probably the triple underline. When people are going through it, it's not about me. You know, they could get upset. They could say all kinds of things. They could, you know, have an, they could have a full regressed experience of a rape. I mean, that has actually happened to me before. Talk about intensity, you know, and you're in there, someone looking at you

Starting point is 00:43:45 like, oh, my God, are you going to do what you think you're going to do? And then you have to hold the inner stoicism and ambiance of respect and dignity and ethics and clarity that that is absolutely now you are and in fact, you know, actually support them and alleviating and diffusing that energy. I mean, these are circumstances that are quite pronounced and as a servant in the space and also as a person that has to genuinely empathize with the gravity of what they're going through, that's where you have to have a code. You have to have an ethical code that you live by in your life, in your own progression, how you serve in that space and have it to be as unfalible as possible.

Starting point is 00:44:25 Because when people are going through experience, there's no real sense of how deep, what lane that's going to take. And if it's an inner child and they regress to a two or three year old, they're literally like a toddler over there. Can you be kind and quiet and simple enough that that little three-year-old feels safe? You know, you can't be discerning and room and this has to. No, you have to be there like the kids in the room.

Starting point is 00:44:49 and the kids in the room, and this is the first time the kids been in the room for 30 years. So if you're not in a place of innocently holding and honoring that little boy, that little girl, it's going to run back. It's going to go back in there and they're going to have to, you know, try again 10 years from now to see if they could coax it back out again. You know, so these things are so powerful and so sensitive. So that ethical code and living by those agreements for me has allowed me to live in that condition where I can feel safe and solid and confident to hold that space. Yeah, that's, those are just.

Starting point is 00:45:19 some really valid points that, you know, a lot of people get to see transformation from the outside, or sometimes they get to have their own transformational experience. But it's unique to get to hear somebody's point of view who is in the room with the transitional experience from different kind of mindsets. And, you know, I heard an interesting interview a while back between Terence McKinna and Rondas. And Terence asked a question to Rondas, and I'm going to ask to you. And that question is, how do you like having this rap put on you? Like, I mean, are you always the facilitator? I mean, doesn't, as you continue to do what you're doing and you help a lot of people, but people don't see you as an individual, all of a sudden they see this master of ceremonies.

Starting point is 00:46:01 How do you like that? Is that something that is difficult to deal with? Or is it something that you're always working on? Or how do you like people putting that on you? Wow. Yeah, that's a great question. you know, like I think for me, a couple things here that thing's important. One is that I do perceive after being in so much ceremony that life is a genuine ceremony. Like for me, there's not really a stop and start to the continuum of what that is for me. You know, trying my best to acknowledge that we are always in a sacred space. We are always exchanging energy, ideas, insights, emotion.

Starting point is 00:46:38 We're always learning and growing. We're actually, you know, in fact, that is the only. constant, you know, that there is. And you could either perceive that as being a happening. That's just a happening without, you know, purpose or intent or fuel in the fire of what that is. Or you can embrace that as that this is an important exchange. This is a sacred exchange, you know, and we're here for a reason. And I'm not quite sure why you've intersected with me today. But if I can make this two or three minutes valuable, you know, by being honest and being present, then that's what I'm going to do. And that's what I think. So that perspective at me, I feel,

Starting point is 00:47:12 Very much, and I guess in the wrongness sense, is the devotion to that aspect of my life, I feel like is infused to something I can't turn on and off. You know, it's just something I have a deep love for, a consideration for. And when I move into a formalized aspect of the ceremony, it's a step of like breathing, you know, it's another step of breathing fresh air, changing the certain kind of going into it. Now, one thing I can't say on the larger scope of that is, though, that like, I still have an amazing experiential time in my life, though. I'm not an aesthetic. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not completely censured in my own experiential awareness. I love still going to shows and having experiences. You know, I love connecting with my wife is, you know, she's an amazing avatar of a person herself.

Starting point is 00:47:56 She works as the vice president for American Foundation of Suicide Prevention. And she's a badass DJ and rides a trike. And like, you know, and navigates life on a frontier for own like expression that's deeply inspiring. And I love that. I love when people can, you know, if you're a pirate, then you're an excellent pirate. And you're, you know, whatever you are, if that's authentic to you and you express it and you do it in a way that respects and honors others, we have a consciousness to explore for a reason. You know, we're actually starting to acknowledge or reconnect with that side of ourselves that there's inners and navigators as much as outer navigators.

Starting point is 00:48:32 And that's important for us to discover new ideas and new things. So I do live still a life that I consider a lot of fun and really beautiful and very, very joyous. And I'm still not going to break my code in that process. And I think that's even where it's more important. If I'm the middle of a rapturous environment, ecstatic environment, people trying to bend things. I'm like, I'm super good, man. Thank you and much love. That actually is doing more work right there.

Starting point is 00:48:58 Right there like, wow, like in this moment where it's easy and no one would care and you could do what you want, you still choose to do this. And that creates a condition that reaffirms the value in there. You know, so I think that for me, like, the rap is I'm Aaron in all the ways I can. Yeah, I'm not turning it off anymore. You know, I'm going to live it, you know, and how that is. That's a good answer. I like that. You know, as I've been very fortunate, too, in Aaron of my life.

Starting point is 00:49:25 I've been getting to speak to so many cool people. And it's been, it's given me this sort of, you know, standing on the foothill and the mountain of dreams, just getting to participate in some and listen to other people. And it just seemed like there's this new sort of spiritual awakening. And on some level, it's so beautiful and so profound and has so much opportunity. But then when I turn my head a little bit and I look over to this next valley, there's some naysayers that are like, oh, man, this is very dangerous. Like, you know, we got here, this is where we got in the 60s.

Starting point is 00:49:56 And then we had Jim Jones, Charles Manson and stuff like that. What do you say to the people that are saying, look, this. This is dangerous, and there will be another Manson coming up. And there are these namesys. What would you tell people that are in that camp? You know, that's a really great conversation here. You know, I talked about Michael Garfield on Future Fossil podcast as well. He's kind of really wanted to explore this frontier.

Starting point is 00:50:24 Like, what happens if there's radical taking the muzzle off of consciousness exploration, like collectively? Like, what happens there? It's like, oof, you know, that is a. heavy lift. He's like in many ways, I do feel that we'd have to go through a collective infancy where mistakes are made and consideration things are had, the done that aren't necessarily aligned with the, you know, the human culture of of inherent kindness and equanimity that we all hope is there, you know, like, you know, and there being an adolescent phase. But I think in many ways, you know, given the nature, I feel like inherently of the natural plant,

Starting point is 00:51:04 that has these aspects within it, an intelligence that is within it, that often draws us into looking at the dissonance or looking at that which is not settled or aligned or what that is and trying to reconcile that, you know, whether it's the composting mushrooms coming through the body and looking for the detritus because that's what mushrooms do. You know, they're looking for what needs to shake out and go back into the earth and regenerate itself, you know, or the ayahuasca, the vine that's moving through the body and exploring where are there parts of your code that are no longer active to you, recognizing you are a child of this world. You are living part of mother. Can you embrace her once again? You know, I think there's

Starting point is 00:51:51 things inside of that that draw us into those places. Now, are there those that are going to, because of their own arc of choices and karmic cycle, make poor decisions? I do think so. but they tend to isolate and sift themselves out early on. And in some ways, too, I can share, even with my past experience, those are often pathways or lessons toward greater healing inevitably. You know, it might be a messier path and things go with atrocities. But I'm also not here to say, you know, what exactly is the right thing for even everyone to do in their own path of healing? Like sometimes you have to split the ground and to crack the self and let the lighten, you know?

Starting point is 00:52:33 So there's a lot there, but I think at the end of the day, when this conversation's moving forward is, can you trust us to be our full selves? We have systematically compartmentalized our psyche to a digestible, comfortable, consistent and controlled space that has caused mania and psychosis collectively all around the world because people do not feel like they can express themselves safely, do not even know how to. They have this deep yearning for a sense of interconnection that they don't even know where it is. They have the weddiego, the material man disease is the indigenous day where everything external is supposed to feed and satiate some sense of value and it's not touching it. And they don't know where that void is even there. So where that needs to go is inside, dig deeper, learn more, expand, grow inside there. Not everyone's going to make it. You know, not everyone's going to find their centerpiece in that.

Starting point is 00:53:29 But I feel a hell of a lot more people will. and a lot more with that radical creativity that would come from that, we'll be able to create systems way outside of the box and containers for working together proactively with people to support these revelations. Because right now our entire mental health system is reactive. So that's another thing too. Moving into the proactive and anticipating that Renaissance would be a lot more of a vibrant mindset than just seeing what might happen

Starting point is 00:53:56 in reacting to it. Yeah, it seems that idea of reaction is a, flawed bug in the system that has been keeping us from being pro-active, which brings me to this idea of, you know, when you look at this sort of psychedelic renaissance that's moving forward, you know, sometimes I see it as a high tide. Like sometimes people who do mushrooms, like myself included, sometimes it comes in waves. And I think about these waves of energy. And I kind of see, sometimes I see what's happening now is like the second wave from the 60s and it's getting higher. But other times I think to myself, wait a minute, maybe this is a tsunami coming in and just clearing everything out.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Do you have a like, do you think it's more of a tsunami or is it more of a high tide? That's a good. These are great, man. Thank you. Awesome, George. You know, I think ultimately right now we're looking at a critical mass moment in our existence. You know, like 60s, I think we're really important to re-energize a sense of that we are more than this. structured person. Like that was the first real break out of that, start spiritual exploration,

Starting point is 00:55:05 reengaging with the plants, reengaging with music and culture, reconnecting with the self as like, I'm, again, I'm a family member to society and humanity, the colors, these different boundaries they tried to place upon us. They're amorphous at best, and they're actually not honoring of the gravity of us being a human relationship and family. So I think that renaissance really kind of rekindled that movement, you know, and being so frontier and novel and expansive at the time, there was a sense of like, well, where does that all land? How does that integrate? And I think that was the integration consideration now is at an entirely other pronounced level. I think that it was then. Before then, it was just turning on and tuning in and exploring and expanding. But there wasn't ever

Starting point is 00:55:50 the question about, well, what about when you start to regulate back to an equilibrium? Well, what do you do every day? You know, like, oh, you know, like so, so it was so renaissancey and the kind of explosive dynamic that no one thought about that recalibration. Now I think because of our lesson through there, it's a lot more, hey, this is a catalyst. It's not all about the fireworks. It's not all about, hey, I'm going to go in and just have this radical experience and keep radically experiencing, like all the things.

Starting point is 00:56:19 It's like, no, I'm going to go in and explore and expand and grow and learn and let go and all these important things. But it's really about then how do I enter back in? How do I go back to my family, my career, my community, my profession? How do I step back in there in a way that this experience informs impact? It allows me to now be more generative, more gracious and peaceful and great. And all these things that I feel because of an experience because I want to live well. Not I just want to ride the purple.

Starting point is 00:56:54 lightning all the time. You know, so I think that that's where I think that the movement is moving is like, we watch it happen in different iterations, and now we're coming to a place where we want to elevate our collective consideration of who we are as people to a new paradigm. And that's where I feel like this tsunami effect is actually kind of more accurate, because no one wants to land in the same position. Like, ultimately, we're all stretching, and we're not exactly sure where this landing, but we're looking at, you know, know, the climate crisis, and we're looking at mental health crisis, and we're looking at political insanity and all these different things transpiring. It's like, we can't even land

Starting point is 00:57:33 near where we are. So let's keep stretching and figure this out on the fly at the power, at the speed of dream together in this experience so that then when we essentially find that recentering, our normative frame of reference isn't a new paradigm. You know, and so I think that's the yearning. That's the deep call of everyone. Whether or not we're going to strive and make that happen, you know, there's, you know, I think there's a lot of momentum in that space. But I just know that at this point, I find it to be the counterpoint to a lot of the dystopia we're experiencing out there is this renaissance in awareness that's, that the psychedelics is helping to really engender, cultivate, and steward in many ways. Yeah, that's a, that's really well put. I once,

Starting point is 00:58:18 I heard the, the wave of the 60s, totally. to me in a story and I want to tell that story to you. Are you okay on time? I know I'm bringing you an hour. Okay, good. Because I feel like I'm just scratching the surface of our conversation here. So I was told the story of the 60s in like this cool story. And it's a short story.

Starting point is 00:58:36 I'll share it with you. And then I want to get your opinion to see if you think it mirrors what happened in the 60s. And I only know what I've read. I'm 48, so I wasn't alive. But it was told to me this way. Imagine a war mongering general in the Far East. and he is going from town to town conquering. And he's extremely brutal.

Starting point is 00:58:57 And the only people that put up a fight to him and his army are the people of faith, are like the monks. And so he makes a point that every town he goes to just slaughter the monks in a way that is heinous. And by the time he makes his way three quarters of the way through the country, he comes up on this small town where he sees the leaders of that town. And they welcome him and they say, oh, you're mighty warlord.

Starting point is 00:59:20 All of the monks have fled into the hills. except for one. The warlord is furious. He said, where is this monk? He's in the ashran right around the corner. So the warlord, boom, opens the doors, and there's a monk just standing there. And the warlord just rage in his eyes, walks up to the monk, and he says, don't you know who I am? I could have my sword run through your belly without blinking an eye. And the monk just says, and don't you know who I am? I am the guy that could have your sword run through my belly without blinking an eye. And the moral of the story is that when the people came,

Starting point is 00:59:57 when the powers came for the people in the 60s, they ran for the hills. And they were like, you could die during this game. And the amount of power, the amount of establishment power overpowered the people that were there to fight. And I'm wondering,

Starting point is 01:00:13 is that something that could happen now? Like I see the money flowing into psychedelics. I see the ideas of patents beginning to take shape. and I can see the almost the infighting a little bit in the psychedelic community. And I'm wondering if that's a possibility. Are we going to be the monk that stands there and says, don't you know who I am? I'm hopeful that we will be.

Starting point is 01:00:35 Man, that's a story. Yeah, right? Is that a good one? Really good, yeah. You know, I hope to think that we can. And the reason being is that, like, it matters so much now. And the fact that matter is that the crisis is so blaring and in the face that it's like, you know, where do you need to look to see if we need to change? Like what part of any part of what we're doing here is actually working?

Starting point is 01:01:08 You know, like, you know, like if there's just not, there's not any gravity toward any argument that the system is designed and working as it should be. You know, whether you're looking at icons, whether you're looking at athletes, whether you're looking at, you know, any component of this entire system is fractured. And it's causing so much distress. And so at this point, standing in the center is saying, no, we need to have radical change. We need to make sure that there are alternative means to live and that you have to know about them. You can't just run. That's where the festivals and the dead and all these cultures are. It's like you have to run to the heels to find yourself.

Starting point is 01:01:46 And you have to find yourself, you know, in non-optimal conditions, you know, one flip-flop still on and broken three days later because you didn't pack enough for it because you didn't consider things like all these things happen. And then you can maybe make your limp your way back to society try to figure it out. Like that doesn't work anymore all the time. We have to also sit in the belly of it all and say these are alternative ways to do this. We're not just a bunch of, you know, while, you know, while primal people that are trying to tell you to change the world. no, we're actually living sustainably. You know, when I came out of the psychedelic closet in 2020 on a Facebook, LinkedIn, all the things, I was like, hey, y'all, you know what I've been doing with all these cool events

Starting point is 01:02:26 and all these things I've been creating and I've got three daughters and, you know, the family that you know and love the cruises. I've been doing psychedelics for 12 years. It's amazing. It has changed my life in every single way. It is something that I feel can be a beautiful catalyst for change for those that are serious about growth and that are doing it in a way of deep intention and consideration. And I came out, and I was at the time, I never sweat so much of my life hitting the enter

Starting point is 01:02:51 button. I was a full body sweat. I was, you know, like in getting out there, person after person after person, was like, thank you for standing up and speaking your truth. And I know you're not just, you know, a radical, whatever, you know, losing it. Like, we know you. You know, you've been around for a long time. You've done some things that are really sweet for our family and they've grown up with

Starting point is 01:03:12 you and whatnot. And so that was super empowering to feel the energy of that because I do feel that we're coming at a place where people want innovative avenues to explore. They want different ways to experience things. And they know that the SSRIs, the SNRIs, the talk therapy, all these different things are just not hitting the heart of that true loss that's just being felt there. So I think at this point, because we have the research is so deeply well established and so you know, consistently over and over game, deeply affirmed on the efficacy of psychedelics and PTSD and

Starting point is 01:03:48 PTSD and anxiety and, you know, all those different things that are coming forward. And then you have a real strong culture of people that have been transforming through music and arts and culture for a very, very long time. And you look out there and say, who's a grateful deadhead? Your lawyer, your police officer, your, your mayor, you know, so people can be in psychedelic culture and live well and have a, and have a great sustainable, accountable lifestyle. You know, so I think a lot of those isms, taboos, stigmas, they're just starting to wash away. And people are just like, well, what genuinely works?

Starting point is 01:04:22 And what is actually showing up for others? You know, people like heroic hearts coming out there and helping our headlands with amazing projects you're in that right now that is just showing people. It's like, it doesn't matter. Red, blue. You know, if you're a survivor of this, like, you're welcome and this can change things. You know, I just see so much of that happening, so many lenses and iterations that I feel like that Buddha has a group in the room, not just even a solo at this point, are people willing to

Starting point is 01:04:45 stand up for it. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm glad you put it that way. I do think that people being comfortable about talking about what's changed their life in a positive way, it's so fascinated me that that can be stigmatized. Like, here's this thing that helped you. Like, why is there this negative cloud just hanging over it? And then as soon as I think about that, I begin to think about, why we've taken ceremonies out of childhood. Like, it's almost like, you know, like, I guess there's two different questions, but the second question seems more interesting

Starting point is 01:05:20 at this point for me. So at least in my life, I didn't have a bar mitzvah. My daughter, my sister didn't have a Kinseñera. And these are just echoes of what's left of that institution. Yeah. Why don't, like, do you see it maybe reemerging this idea of ceremonies for childhood? And why do you think they were taken out of the education system? Well, you know, I mean, I think it wasn't even like a strategic decision.

Starting point is 01:05:44 It's like when you get into a position where the the emphasis around life gets really kind of compartmentalized into material value and, you know, and status and these different things, it starts moving away from experiences that marked experiences create these moments, these kind of passages. And then when you have them, you are celebrated. and ushered into a new way. And I just think over time it was like, well, those experiences are fun, but they lost their sense of purpose, the why, that people would do these things, because the culture and the emphasis on materials or whatever necessarily that driving industrial, cultural complex is,

Starting point is 01:06:29 just overemphasize any need for demarcation of all these considered minor aspects of growth throughout people's lives. And then the how to even do that started to lose. You go back three or four generations and, you know, you have all these different cool rites of passage in ways holidays were done. I even know my, you know, my cousins and grandparents, you know, older growing up and Puerto Rican Christmas, it was very different, Three Kings Day. Like there was a way that they did things that had this like mystical quality to it

Starting point is 01:07:00 that over time, you know, you just lose the gravity of that from generation, generation, because it's not perceived as important or central to the current culture, you know. So I think paradigm-wise, that's what we lost. You know, in this contemporary paradigm, it's like, why celebrate the small things when at the end of the day it's about getting them into this lane and this seat in the bus and getting this particular figure and this particular lifestyle? You know, and so they're looking for more homogenization as opposed to radical explosion of that individual into whoever they are. You know, and that's part of the mindset of the indigenous of past civilizations is who is this young deity? form here that has come to Grace's planet. What are their profound gifts of awareness and artistries and hunting skill? Like what is it that they have inside to gift our society? Let's put

Starting point is 01:07:51 them through some challenges. Let's put them through some experiences that maybe that side of them will awaken to us. And then they will be a leader like this. Or they will support this part of our community. Or they will inform our tribe from their unique wisdom they acquire on this trail. So it was much more looking at an individual with this question of, how can I accelerate them into being the best of them they can be? And now the paradigm is, how can I make them fit into the paradigm that might make the most money and do the most things for us or for the whatever that is? Whatever the beast is that whole situation is. So I think that's kind of where that shift has come. But I feel like that's where the yearning of people feel incomplete when they get to certain parts of life.

Starting point is 01:08:36 we're like, this can't be it. This can't be it. There's much more to me and my expression. And here I am at the desk. You know, and that's what happens. Yeah, that's really well said. You know, when you start looking at the way we treat our kids like Pavlovian dogs with bells and whistles and cookie cutter jobs and obedient workers and don't ask that question why? That's a dangerous question. Just do it.

Starting point is 01:08:57 Just read this, okay? Read. Why don't you just learn from everybody else's experiences and don't have them yourself? Like, it's just, it's so sad to me. But on one level, it's sad. But on another level, this is where I begin to see the high tide idea coming back. It's our opportunity to get to rediscover the how. And even reinvent the how some way.

Starting point is 01:09:18 And in reinventing the how, we're able to put our own twist on it a little bit. And I think that's really exciting. That seems to be something that if there was an Aaron Cruz middle school or an Aaron Cruz elementary school that they would be teaching there. I love it, man. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly right. Reinventing the how looking at innovation and radical creativity as your engine to growth. You know, if you tell somebody, if you put them in these in these opportunities to be like, well, what skills do you actually love and have an affinity toward? You know, Montessori does some of this to a degree. But, you know, it's even taking it to the next level. It's like, well, what do you have an affinity? Ooh, what really, you know, what do you feel like there's gravity for when you love? Oh, let's surround you with opportunities to express that. And you then form us how that feels and like different ways. I think that that's the kind of envisioning that I think is going to be necessary, but even in an adult sense, you know, and that's half the

Starting point is 01:10:15 clients are coming to me. He's like, look, I have passions. I have purpose. Nothing I'm doing in life has to do with any of that. But I can't figure out how to get from over here to over here or at least making these roads come closer because it's eating my existence away. I'm going in. I'm punching a clock. What I'm doing is not even, the job is not even ethical. There's nothing there that fulfills my purpose. And like, I've got these things that I like to do, that I'm awesome at. And they, and everybody's telling me they're not valuable. Is that true? Like, is, is that reality? Because, wow, that's sad. You know, and I agree. And it's like, that's part of the thing is like, how can we have people trust in their own innate creative,

Starting point is 01:10:54 true sense coming forward and make sure that they know that's valuable. Not only that's valuable, that's going to drive us forward. We need you. We need all of you to come out and show us new ways to do this life thing together collectively and often it takes that radical break out of the contemporary norm psychedelics are good facilitators of that yeah it's you know a question i ask myself sometimes and i think that gets me and a lot of people that try to make the transition from uPS driver to podcaster or bank executive to facilitator or lawyer to integration coach is like we're already programmed with this false idea of how do I monetize this? I think as soon as you start doing that,

Starting point is 01:11:41 you begin to regress into the last world you came from. I think that the only way to monetize something is to outgrow the idea of monetizing something. Right? Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. That is so well put. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:11:58 I mean, when I came in as a harm reduction coach, this didn't exist as a profession. Like several years ago, this wasn't even a thing. Like even until Tulsa talked, people were like, really? That's legal? It's like, yeah. Actually, yeah. If I don't provide compound, people support their own compound.

Starting point is 01:12:13 I could frame and create and craft every facet of that experience. And they have made the risk assessment to them that it's important enough for them that they're going to make a choice to acquire compound. Yes, I definitely test it and make sure that it's safe and everything they're working with as part of the harm reduction protocol. But at the same time, that's how I'm able to be of service. in this really direct fashion in this contemporary time until things kind of shift and change. But like that's really, if I thought in the beginning, it's like, wait, there's nothing exists or this is I can't do this. Sorry, guys, I'm packing out.

Starting point is 01:12:44 Like, you know, or, you know, and a lot of people do. And I understand that. But at the same time, it's like, hey, look, like, we have to trust that if you are learning and growing and synthesizing what you really want to do in earnest way. And that doesn't mean, like, pitch all your other job and just dive right into it. build those bridges. Right. You know, work that network.

Starting point is 01:13:05 Start solidifying your process. Live your process. Anything I've ever done as a coach, I've done the entire program myself and pressure tested or offered it to those that I care about for very reduced rates. Be like, hey, I want to make sure there's integrity here. I want to make sure there's value and all these things. As you go through that whole process of distillation, the universe supports these things. I mean, it just does.

Starting point is 01:13:26 It's like, it's like, hey, wait a second. Here's another cool opportunity. Here's a great podcast. is a brother, I just love what you shared. Like, you know, these things happen. And none of it's by me like orchestrating and all or even expecting that it's going to happen. It's because I'm earnest and I'm really devoted to my own cultivation process.

Starting point is 01:13:43 And then the cups are matching the energy that I'm holding and increasing as I go. And that's part of that rhythm of intuitive guidance or servant leadership as opposed to having the whole strategy and plan mapped. I love it. We're such on the same level. And I, you know, it almost brings us back to the idea. of faith or and maybe that even is not the, it doesn't thoroughly hold the thing that I'm trying to explain. It's not a perfect container, but it's close. When you begin moving down the pathway,

Starting point is 01:14:14 you do see doors open. And, you know, I have it right here actually. So this is a quote that I keep, I keep by me all the time. And I, I think it holds, it rings true to what we're talking about. And it says, in oneself lies the whole world. And if you know how to look and learn, then the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either that key or the door to open except yourself. That's from Krishna-Murdy. And the more you start,

Starting point is 01:14:41 the more you embrace, another great quote is from Alfred North Whitehead who says that, you know, it's a, God, I'm going to butcher it now that I'm trying to say it. It's like mysticism, clarification, action. And it's so true, just those three things. Like, you had this mystical experience and then you integrate it.

Starting point is 01:15:00 You have the clarification, and then you can move towards it. And we do that unconsciously, but once you begin to do it consciously, then you can really begin to move down the path of passion that was meant for you. And the doors will open because you found the key. You may not know you have it in your hand, but all of a sudden you're just like, oh, what does this do? And boom, there's Aaron Cruz over there. Hey, here's Dr. Jessica Ross.

Starting point is 01:15:23 Here's Dr. Rick Strassman. Like, dude, how did I open that door, man? I don't know. But it's there. if you just have the power to believe in yourself. And it's just one step at first, right? Just get up and try one thing. Don't come off the path, man.

Starting point is 01:15:39 If you need to sit down for a minute, sit down. But get up and keep walking on that path. And I promise you, it'll pave its own way, man. It's so beautiful. And I love the way you put it, man. Thank you. Yeah. No, thank you, George.

Starting point is 01:15:49 You just really nailed it right there too, man. That is so true. It's the earnest nature of honoring the gravity that's drawing you forward and just trusting that there's something important. there. There's something to that, that fire. And, you know, I always find faith for me is like, faith is that space where your soul feels a resonance that your mind can't understand, you know? Yeah, that's good. Your soul is, it's a unified being. So you could feel a unified force and frequency in the soul. There's something there. There's a gravity there. There's something holding that

Starting point is 01:16:21 space. But the mind being inherently polarized, that's, that's its CPU. That's where it works from. it can't absorb or understand anything that moves beyond a rationale of cause and effect. So it's not going to be able to shift into that where that field of awareness is where your soul holds. So that's where that kind of deeper question moves upward. But in that place for me, it's always in a position of can I trust in that resonance? And then can I also then honor that there will be practical skills that need to learn. And there will be things that need to be adhered to and experiences and accountability and responsibility. All those things to go out.

Starting point is 01:16:56 the window, but there's just a deeper openness to, I'm also evolving into something novel, and I'm also transforming a continuity. And I'm coming at the world and the world with paintbrushes in my hand, not hammers and nails, not right angles everywhere. No, I'm going to, Bob Rossett, you know. I got a little speak over here. Oh, let's smudge it back into a mountain. That's perfect. Yeah. You know, like, and trusting in the, and the ability to adapt and shift and change and and audible and all these different things. But if the movement, as you say, moves forward and you're going through on a pace that honors your own fire and of intent, it does create conditions that are going to be beneficial in

Starting point is 01:17:36 your favor and supportive in your favor. And at the end of the day, you know, that's a path that takes great trust. And it also, where I feel like happens in a psychedelic experience, when you have that lived experience, which you talked about, it creates an imprint. That imprint is a signature. in the South. That's signature then, even if it fades, it's there. When you're meditating, you know where you're going to. When you're praying, you know where you're praying to. When you're moving in alignment with something that's true to your heart, you know where you're headed. You know where you're

Starting point is 01:18:06 headed and feel. You might not know what's going to be cultivated at the end of the day, what that's going to materialize into. And you're not even as concerned, to tell you truth, because you're starting to live from a place of appreciating the process and learning how to live in alignment. alignment feels really powerful and profound when you're actually where you want to be and who you are is aligned with your truth. It's like and so there's a trust that develops, but that's where I feel like it's helpful with the immersive experiences are key. Now you have a signature in the self.

Starting point is 01:18:33 Now you understand where you're headed and a feel of what that is, a real visceral energy of what that is. So walk the path and trust that where it is. And if you're off and you're wonky, you'll know it too. You can't unknow what you know. Oof, that's this and it. You can choose to learn those. lessons or live in fear, you know, because often they're fear-oriented lessons or choose fear,

Starting point is 01:18:54 but if you choose trust, then that's different. That's the other frequency. That's a great point to bring up fear. It almost seems that the majority of the lives, what, that's not really well said, it seems to me a big part of mental illness that people are dealing with today is a sort of symptom of fear. Like I was so, I was so, fearful for so long about being my authentic self. I was so fearful for so long about standing up for myself or not being able to provide or, you know, all these things that especially a guy has. It's like, man, if I do that, how am I going to provide for my family? And, you know, it's, it's, it's this really internal struggle that so many of us go to. And if you don't deal with it, it manifests

Starting point is 01:19:43 in depression. It manifests in anxiety. But if you just stand up against it, I think people will find fear is afraid of you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, that's so well said, George. I mean, because you look at fear and how that controls so many people's lives, you know, on so many levels. I mean, it's what we hear in the news. It's what the aunt wants to call and dump dirty laundry on.

Starting point is 01:20:13 COVID-19. Like all these things is fear, fear in every expression of it. And fear constricts. Fear brings you tight. You know, it confines the view. It makes you want to hunker away. It makes you want to isolate everything. You know, the opposite of love, I feel, is fear, more so than hate.

Starting point is 01:20:31 At least there's passion. At least there's fire and care and hate. You know, like, you got something there. You know, but like, fear is like, it's disconnection, it's disassociation. It's isolation. It's literally trying to remove yourself from the stream of life for a false sense of When anything else does that, it atrophies, it decays, it stagnates. Anything that isolates, no matter what substance, it goes spoiled when it's by itself, when it hides, when it moves into a container for, I don't care how many years, it's going to go bad at some point.

Starting point is 01:21:04 You know, like, so you look at that and you say then, why do I do that with my own life? Why do I create these bigger boundaries and not allow myself people to see the true me and get all these things to protect myself and, you know, and all those. is when anything in nature that does that fails. And so that that energy, the fear, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, that energy of pushing away, that is, unfortunately part of a psyche wound that has been materialized in our collective society for fair, many, many long, for many generations, in thousands of years, even, I would say. But looking at where we are now, we're recognizing that fear has driven us into a corner. And at this point, you either, you either, bark out and strike into somewhere, become a warrior. You know, this is great tech-up call from the warrior to the warrior. They're like, people that judge things on assume fears, I won't go outside because this might happen. This woman did like, yeah, you might have to check it out.

Starting point is 01:22:04 And people might have to write it down. This woman did a statistical analysis. Like there's like a 0.08% chance that what you're worrying about is actually going to happen. Do we live any of our life like that? Uh-oh. There's a 0.8% chance that I'm going to crash my car. I'm not going. Like, no.

Starting point is 01:22:18 So what you fear that holds you back is often an assumed fear that has such an intangible possibility that really overcoming that and just choosing your inner ability to learn, to grow, to have resilience. It can change everything. And all it takes is the first step to start that reprogramming. Oh, that didn't happen the way I thought it was. Maybe I can reconsider these adventures in my life and start experiencing things. Aaron, I feel like the time has flown by, man. And I really thoroughly enjoy talking to you. It exceeded all my expectations.

Starting point is 01:22:54 I love what you're doing. Everybody should go and check out what he's doing. It's remarkable. It is healing. It's fun. It's original. It's all those things combined into ones. And he's clearly a really passionate person and cares about people.

Starting point is 01:23:07 So I'm going to have to have you come back because I feel like we could talk a lot longer and we could have maybe some more people involved. It would be really fun. But before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much, George. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Starting point is 01:23:21 When you reached out initially, I saw the level of integrity of the people you hosted on the show. I was like, oh, wow, I was really humbled and honored. Yeah. So thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. Love where we're driven in here. Well, if anyone I wants to learn about my work, I'm at the spark.com.

Starting point is 01:23:36 So it's T-H-E-S-P-A-R-C-R-C-O. Right now, I've got a lot of really exciting things going on. You know, I'm building a community center right here in our property in Asheville, North Carolina. It'll be able to lodge. 12 people, individuals or 12 families, you know, beautiful facilities, multiple, you know, bathrooms, restrooms, all this, like everything there, epicenter for ceremonial work, epicenter for getting together,

Starting point is 01:24:01 exploring ideas, facilitation of different forms, around 11 acres, beautiful landscape out here. So really starting to start to engender a community culture out here, right at the home front, which I love, is coming up here as well. I'm part of the, I just got on the board with the Pearl Psychedelic Institute. They're out here in Waynesville. one of only three facilities in the entire country that are currently doing MDMA, a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So they're pioneers on the cutting edge and old wizards in their own right.

Starting point is 01:24:28 I have a lot of respect and love for them. They're going to be hosting also kind of events and symposiums here in the Asheville, North Carolina area, trying to build conferences, trying to build the type of congregation of people coming together in this space. And, you know, ultimately for my own work, I'm just, I'm facilitating one-on-one's group's experiences, different things like that. but I'm really just excited about being a part of the now professional conversation, the integrity and ethics behind ceremonial facilitation, how important that is. I mean, we really got this, got to get this right, you know, because we go out there and we start creating these containers

Starting point is 01:24:59 and situations occur that are unsafe, unethical, unbalanced, for caring for people deeply in these states, then it's going to be all white coats and therapists, and maybe it should be if we can't get that right. So I think in part of this is also now wanting to experience and explore and converse about how to create containers, festivals, events, how to create experiences 101 that are safe and honoring of the gravity of this, but also use non-traditional magic medicine and mysticism to make this an experience for others.

Starting point is 01:25:27 So, George, I really appreciate the opportunity to share, and I do. I'd love to come back on and dive into some new phenomena, see what we can create together. All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, hang on one second. I'm going to hang up with these guys, but I'll talk to for one quick second afterwards. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Check out all of the cool links in the show notes. and that's all we got for the day. Aloha.

TrueLife - Ehren Cruz - Rites of Passage

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