TrueLife - Empowering Communities: Sara Payan from Advocate to Educator in the World of Cannabis & Policy

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Sara Payan is a nationally recognized & award-winning educator, public speaker, policy advocate, writer & the host of the"Planted with Sara Payan" podcast. For over a decade, Sara worked for the Apothecarium as their Director of Education & Public Education Officer. An industry veteran with over 18,000 hours of experience guiding & educating the public, Payan has her finger on the pulse of the industry regarding consumer trends & product development & trained cannabis professionals on consumer relationship building & the art of the sale. She has consulted with numerous brands on product development, public outreach, marketing & engagement for businesses.Sara sits on the California Cannabis Advisory Committee & the San Francisco CannabisOversight Committee & was Co-Chair of the San Francisco State Cannabis Legalization Taskforce. As a Stage III cancer survivor & former civil rights professional, she believes that educating consumers & policymakers makes for safe access, sound policy and equitable industry opportunities.Sara consults with large healthcare organizations such as Kaiser & UCSF, helping them understand the role cannabis can play in patients' lives and offering educational sessions for their patients. She leads large-scale industry training & lectures nationwide, including CEU credit classes for healthcare practitioners. Sara created & taught the first cannabis education workshops for City College of San Francisco. She has presented her educational series at UC Berkeley Haas School of Business, SF Public Library & Glide Memorial Church.Sara was named among the 100+ Most Important Women in Cannabis for 2019 &2020. She is a subject matter expert for lifestyle publications such as Self Magazine. Her work has been highlighted in MG Retailer, Magnetic Magazine, The Bold Italic, SF Weekly, SF Chronicle, California Leaf, & Damian Marley's "Medication" video series.Sara is a contributing writer for Rolling Stone & Cannabis Now. She has been honored to speak & lecture at the Cannabis Business Times Conference, New West Summit, Women in Cannabis Expo, Patients Out of Time, Women Grow, The Women's Visionary Congress & the Arkansas Cannabis Industry Association.Experiencehttps://sarapayan.com/https://spotify.link/v2ZSwtVgoDb One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen,

Welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day Hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing, hope the wind is at your back. I have an incredible show for you today. I want to introduce to the listening and the watching audience, the one and only Sarah Payne, a true luminary in the world of education, engagement, and training across diverse domains. Sarah's multifaceted expertise extends its influence across brands, healthcare, institutions,

higher learning establishments, policymakers, and the public alike. She is not merely an educator, but a nationally recognized and award-winning one, A consummate public speaker, policy advocate, prolific writer, and the captivating voice behind the Planted with Sarah Payan podcast. For over a decade, Sarah served as the director of education and public education officer at the apothecarium, a position that forged her into an industry veteran. With an astonishing 18,000 hours of hands-on experience guiding the enlightening the public, Sarah possesses an intimate understanding. of the cannabis industry. It's ever-evolving consumer trends and product development dynamics. Her talent also extends to training cannabis professionals in the delicate art of consumer relationship building and the science of the sale. Sarah's influence extends beyond the boardroom.

She actively contributes to the cannabis landscapes governance as a member of the California Cannabis Advisory Committee and the San Francisco Cannabis Oversight Committee. She plays a pivotal role in shaping the industry's future. Notably, she's served as the co-chair of the San Francisco State Cannabis Legalization Task Force, demonstrating her commitment to equitable industry opportunities. Having triumphed over stage three cancer and hailed from a background in civil rights advocacy, Sarah Payne embodies the belief that education holds the key to safe access, sound policy, and a fair industry landscape.

Her outreach stretches even further collaborating with health care giants such as Kaiser and UCSF, helping them understand the transformative role of cannabis and patient care through educational sessions. Her influence is not confined to a single locale. She conducts large-scale industry training and lectures nationwide, often offering CEU credit classes for health care of practitioners. Her dedication to education is exemplified in her creation and teaching of the first cannabis education workshops at City College of San Francisco. Her educational series has graced institutions like UC Berkeley, Haas School of Business, SF Public Library, and Glide Memorial Church. Her accolades and recognition underscore her impact in the field. She was honored as one of the 100-plus most important women in cannabis for 2019 and 2020.

She also serves as a subject matter expert for lifestyle publications, including Self Magazine. Her work finds a place in prominent publications such as M.G. Retailer Magnetic Magazine, the bold italic sf weekly s f chronicle california leaf and even damia marty's medication video series sarah i am so stoked to talk to you and you have so many cool accomplishments thank you for spending some time with me today thanks that was a lot it is well look you've accomplished quite a bit and i i want to make sure that people thoroughly understand with whom i'm talking to when another thing I want to do is underscore why I'm talking to these people. I think you're amazing.

And I want your work to echo through the minds of other people who listen to this. So they can be inspired and they can draw inspiration and they know and they can do it too. And that's what we're going to get into today. I'm so excited to talk to you. And I guess if I'm just going to come right out of the gate here, I would ask something along this questions. And I will because I will. You've played a significant role in educating the public about cannabis.

From a philosophical perspective, how do you see the relationship between knowledge and personal freedom when it comes to substances like cannabis? Education's empowerment, right? I mean, I think, you know, a lot, we've all dealt with the war on drugs. We've all been, I mean, I always told this story about when my cousin Rachel was a little girl and she was part of that whole dare generation. She got strep throat. Her mom was trying to get her pen to saline. and she's like, say no to drugs. You know?

I mean, let's not think that. I think that, you know, when we talk about education and cannabis, it's one small part of it. Because what we're really talking about is education and critical thought and empowerment through education generally. I mean, we really need to, you know, do our research and identify our experts that we can rely on for sound information and disseminate. what's right for us. Because even when I teach my classes about cannabis and I talk about the fact that we have our own

endogenous cannabinoids that we create in our body, not all of us tolerate phyto cannabinoids. And the biggest lesson around that is that's okay. Because as human beings, a lot of times we get a little judging. Well, if it's not right for me, it's not right for anybody else. And that's not true. Well, let's talk about that. And let's set ourselves up for success. creating a safe container for experimentation too.

I think it's imperative. And I think it's, I think that for so long there's been this either or. Drugs are bad. This is your brain on drugs. Don't do this. Like this idea of intolerance, this idea that it's,

if you do this, you're bad. Like it's such a poor way of thinking. Like it's so much more complex. There's so much more complex. more complexity involved in critical thinking. And I think that's a big part of the things you're teaching is like, hey, let's start making decisions based on the environment we're in. What about this person that has, you know, this particular mental illness, but this

CBD oil is helping them. Like, that's not bad. This is showing incredible results. Look at this profile that's happening here. There's a lot more going on than we have been led to believe. And now we're beginning to talk about it in an adult way. It's a really fascinating time to be alive. Maybe you can speak to the maturing relationship that we're having with drugs,

like seeing the Terps on the background, seeing the profile, and we're growing up a little bit, right? Yeah, we are. We're growing up. And, I mean, I'm not going to lie, the stigma is alive in a while, especially in areas where it's new, well, new legally or new having a conversation that's not supposed to have stigma, but it still does. I mean, when I started working behind the bar in a dispensary, I had, I won't say it's a luxury, but it was the excuse of my family was like, oh, she just got done with cancer. She's obviously having a crisis. Okay, we'll tolerate this, you know. But back then, I also would have people who accused me of being a drug dealer. And I would say, I had a, I took a car share home one night and he was like, oh, you're a drug dealer. I was like, no, pharmaceutical salespeople are drug dealers.

Not me. That's so true. We did. I mean, when I started, we were just talking about THC. And when I was sick, I worked with a lot of lovely people and dispensaries, but they couldn't give me the answers that I needed. And I think they were a little bit afraid to give me the wrong answers that I needed to get the results that I wanted, which ended up with me making mistakes and getting

too high or having a feeling that wasn't. for me and I was already going through a lot. So that's, you know, as we've been maturing and really talking to people, people are talking about their experiences, which you'd only hear in small pockets before, you know, it's like if you were before dispensaries and you were getting your cannabis from your person, you know, they might have a bunch of roaster bags and they're like, this is Grand Eddy Purple, you know, this is headband, this is blah, blah, blah. And you'd be like, well, what should I choose? And I'm like, I don't know. You know, pick what you want. I don't, I don't know what it is or these, you know, like almost

legends of what things will do or won't do. And, you know, now we have more data and we have more stories. And I think that even though in research, you know, they say data is king and stories don't matter as much. I think that they very much do because when you look at cannabis education, whether it's a great book, coming to one of my classes, greeting research, you're getting a readout on how that, you know, either the majority of human beings are responding or this very small pool of people that they've collected for the study. And just so everybody knows, most of the earlier studies were done on rats and they use male rats, and that's men and women react very differently to substances because we are walking chemistry experiments and hey, guess what? We have

different hormones that are coursing through our bodies at different levels, you know, I mean, the same hormones, but at different levels depending on, you know, your gender. And it's, these are, these are things that are really important to take into consideration. So now, you know, we have CBD and CBD is wonderful. You know, we're having more conversations about that. But we're also not talking about the fact that some people it doesn't work for, some people it makes anxious, some people give them the blues. There are drug interactions that doesn't mean you can't use it, but we should, you know, really get ourselves informed and have conversations with our doctors about what we're taking and how it's reacting with us. So they get a full picture. And they're also able to help other people

who may be going through something quite similar to what you are. And they learn from their patients. So, you know, getting into that, getting into turpenes, but also, I mean, you know, turpines, I tell people, you know, if you go into a garden, you close your eyes and you inhale a lot of what you're getting are those terpians, those molecules that create scent and flavor in all the plants, but they also lend themselves to the effects. So when we use the unfortunate scale of indica to sotiva, which we know is not accurate, but it's a placeholder until we find something that's easier for the public to understand. And, you know, we're talking about the different combinations of terpenes and how those interact with the cannabinoids to create reactions.

And even then, when we get into, you know, our body chemistry is in neurodivergence, your, you know, your mileage may vary. Like, you have. So it's really good to have, like, all this baseline of information and we're learning more and more all the time, but also taking you to consideration. how does this affect you as an individual? And with terpenes, because every time I take out my, I have a terpenes for my classes when I'm in person so people can smell like the individual terpenes, how they are on their own. People are like, oh, should I have this at home to help me? I'm saying, no. No, those are like a lot of turpines or solvents. Well, you know, if you're familiar with essential oils, a lot of those you can't use on your own. This is even more concentrated, more heavy duty. So we really want to stress the fact that it should be naturally occurring

or in a formulation that's been tested and making sure that it's safe for people. There's so much there. It's really wonderful to get to speak to someone who has such a background in informing people. I'm hopeful. Do you think that we will see the same rate and pace of learning that we have seen with cannabis over the last decade? Do you think that will continue to move in that same fashion. When we continue to move at this pace and understand more, integrate more, maybe the idea of personalized medicine, like 23 and me type understandings and figuring out our own profiles and getting more mileage for the individual, you think it's going to continue to move in that

direction? Yeah, I do. I do. And actually, there's a lot of that happening already. My friend and colleague, Len May, has a company that is already, you know, doing that and really looking at your genetics and your predispositions and what that might mean for your cannabis usage. I also think that because there's always going to be this very human thing of monetizing everything and seeing how you can get the patent on whatever, we're seeing a lot of things on

synthetics, which, you know, and this is my personal opinion, I do not believe in synthesized cannabinoids, although I am not much for synthesizing anything. I mean, when we look at, you know, Valium came from Valerian. You don't see many people with a Valerian problem. But stinky. So, you know, there's that too. And nobody really has a thing for something that smells like Smalley socks. Or I shouldn't say that. I'm not going to yuck someone's young. Maybe somebody does. But, you know, you're not going to yack someone's yum. You know, but it is, it's like we're, it's a very exciting time. There's a lot of things going on.

But I think, you know, we really need to stress educating the public, enabling the public. If you don't like the way, you know, the products that are available or the prices or some of the rules around cannabis, you are empowered to create change. And that's the biggest thing. When we got into legalization in California, it was a wonderful step and it was a heartbreaking step because we had a lot of people that were very upset that some of the medicine that they were relying on for relief was no longer available because those companies could no longer exist or their products couldn't. And the prices went up so high that a lot of people couldn't afford what they needed.

There were a lot of tears on both sides of the bar, you know, because it's a very emotional thing. and especially in the medicinal days. And even now, you know, the people that you see every day coming in the dispensaries, you have special relationships with them. It's very emotional, especially if somebody's sick and they're looking for something for help. But there was a lot of finger pointing and saying, oh, well, the dispensaries are greedy or the companies are greedy. And it's all your fault because you're all trying to make a lot of money. And then you have to explain it's actually what's going on with policy.

There's a lot of great things that are coming into play that are necessary and are expensive, like testing. We need to make sure things are tested, especially, you know, to make sure people are doing things right, to make sure there are no mold or mildews. And, you know, if somebody with a compromised immune system were to take that, it could be deadly for them. So we really need to be careful around that because a plant itself behaves as an adaptogen. There's never been anyone who's died from using too much cannabis, but we have had a issues with contaminated products, and that's something we need to safeguard against, and that does cost money. But there is over taxation, and there is over-regulation, and these things add to the

cost as well. And if you don't like the way things are going, you have a voice. It's time to come out of the cannabis closet because our policymakers have a very outdated view on who the average cannabis user is. And so they make their rules accordingly because they think that we're not going to pay attention and we're home eating Cheetos. And that is not true. So come out of the closet. Let your policymakers know that you're contributing member of society. You use cannabis and most importantly, you vote. Their jobs are on the line to actually represent the people that they're voted in to represent. And these are some of the biggest things. The public has more power to sway things than they could ever know. And you can get involved in.

the policymaking itself. I mean, I became the co-chair of the legalization task force. You know, I was working in a dispensary and I wanted to make sure that things were going to work out. Now, we have a lot of work to do, but legalization was passed and we did get some really sound policy in there. We have a lot of things that we need to take care of around that. And that's not just California in other states, you know, people in other states take notice, not necessarily because, oh, California is perfect and they did it right. But what mistakes did we make? What mistakes have other states made? Let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's create policy that not only creates a strong industry, but also reflects the culture and, you know, what's important to the people

who are living in these states. And, you know, personally speaking, it's like, I don't have an issue with large multi-state operators per se, but I do have an issue with the fact that there are all these smaller businesses that should be being supported because we want to look at generational wealth for the people who are living in these states, whether they're working, want to work for somebody, or whether they want to start their own business. And these are really important things that we don't talk about enough. And it's, it's kind of frustrating. Maybe, maybe you can unpack that. Like, when you say generational wealth, maybe you could go back and help people understand, like, what that means for the different, different types of that. Right. So, I mean, when we look at, before I worked

in cannabis, you know, I was working in nonprofits and working in civil rights and also in, a nonprofit that was more about financial equality. And studies showed that generation, wealth helps people, you know, survive and thrive. The people who are able to like continue on when you have dark days or you have emergencies or you want to start a business are the most successful when their families have wealth that can support them that's passed on from generation to generation, which is part of the disparities of black and brown folks and people who are new to our country, is that they don't have that generation. wealth to back them to create success. People want to succeed. They want to thrive. They want to

build strong families and they want to have things to pass on to their families so that that success and that abundance continues on. And the stronger we are as individuals and families in that, the stronger our states are. You know, that's the thing. You have a lot of really strong big corporations that are hiring a lot of people, hey, some people like to work for big companies. That's cool. But they can pull out. And then what happens to those people and those jobs? I saw that, you know, I'm from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

I've been to California now for almost 30 years. But where I'm from, iron ore was the big thing. And when that changed, when the large companies started leaving there and the economy changed around that and they outsourced to other countries that really affected entire towns. And they were until tourism became larger, the area I'm from was living in a constant recession. We need to build up small local businesses to strengthen our communities. It's very important. And to really, I mean, make sure that, because as we know, you know, your average CEO may

at least 10 times the amount of an employee. And there's something wrong with that. I mean, people who work irregular, everyday jobs should be able to afford homes and to take time off and spend time with their families or maybe go on vacation with their kids and not have to be stressed out about buying food or paying for their car, which gets them to their jobs.

And some of the most thoughtful, creative products that I've seen on the market have been made by small companies. Without a doubt, it seems to me that, you know, when the instrument becomes the institution, and I'll use instrument as the corporation or, you know, giant multinational corporation, they tend to look at their people like numbers. And if they look at their employees like numbers, then they look at the areas like numbers. And they see them as just this cog in a wheel that produces. And if it doesn't produce, you get rid of it and you get a new.

and it irreversibly undermines the human spirit and it strips away everything that makes us human. And when we do that, we strip out imagination, we strip out humanity, we strip out everything that makes us unique and powerful and beautiful. And I do think that this is really tied together because when we look at, so most of the most imaginative people and caring people I know seem to share a passion for this is me. But most of the people I know share a passion for cannabis or psychedelics or pushing the boundaries of authority because they do want to think for themselves. They want to build something for their community. They care about their neighbor.

They want to invent things that make life easier for people instead of a profit. And that seems to be this divide that we've had so long. And we can see it echo through cannabis, psychedelics, this idea that we can wrap our arms around something, centralize it, monetize it, and send it out of it. a product seems to be failing for the large corporations when I look at the companies that have gone public whether it's with cannabis or whether it's with psychedelics it seems to me that that model is failing when it comes to cannabis and psychedelics. Have you noticed that trend? I have. I've noticed that trend. It seems like they want to have everything be consistent in the wrong places. That's a great way to put it. Yes. You know. And I also, you know, would say,

say that as it grows, we also are dealing with false profits. There's a lot of people out there that are making promises that they can't keep or a cult of personality where people are, you know, getting misled. And especially in the psychedelic space. Right. You know, we hear a lot about, you know, people, you know, placing themselves as shaman's and putting people in dangerous positions. And also, I mean, let's talk appropriation. Yeah. A several years ago, I was at this amazing event called the Women's Visionary Congress. I was presenting. And we had a shaman from South America come. And she was amazing. She had a talk. And she was talking about the fact that, you know, especially white people will come there and take, but not give.

plead but not return, you know, the energy. And that is, I mean, that's like colonialism 101. You know, we really need to be looking at, you know, when we take, what are we giving? And when we teach, where are we overstepping our boundaries? What are we what and who are we not honoring? What are we taking from and what are we giving back? These are huge and is it one of the I had when I was in college I went to school for theater the first time and I had the head of my department was crotchety as hell and almost everybody was a little bit afraid of him. But one of the most important things that he taught me, well two, one, always be kind to the gatekeeper.

It's very stupid not to. They are the, even if you don't see them as the most important person. In reality, they are. And two, love the art in yourself, not yourself in the art. And I see a lot of number two happening in the, you know, in the psychedelics and cannabis field, where it's, you know, this cult of personality. And it's more about taking in everything that they can to be like, look at me, look at It means this is my way of making money.

And that is not, it's not a life-giving exchange. It just isn't. We have to, you know, we have to stop with the hubris. We need to get our heads out of our asses. We need to get over the ego. And we really need to look at what best serves the greater good. Yeah, you can see a pattern of extraction that seems to permeate the West, whether we're extracting fossil fuels, whether we're extracting knowledge, whether we're extracting

productivity. It's all extraction. And there's no shared goals. There's no shared sacrifice. It's just extracting to extract. It's just profit for profit's sake. And look where that's leading us. It's a, it's a, I don't know, it's a negative spiral downhill into a bottomless pit of nothingness. You know, it's like it's everything for nothing. Like why? It doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be that way. No. And it's not going to be, it's not going to be perfect poly sunshine. They're women. We're flawed. But we can do better.

We can do a lot better than what we are. And that's not to say. I hate to sound like a downer because there are a lot of wonderful things going on. And I have a lot of amazing, wonderful colleagues that I get to work with every day. There's a lot of goodness and light happening. And it's our job to really identify the things that need to change. And we have a long ways to go. We still have people in prison.

That's so ridiculous. for yeah it blows my mind to think about like the three strikes law or someone that's selling we used to call them dime bags back in the day you know and you could jail for that but you can sell coke all day long you know you can be john delorian and bring bad cars full of coke from south america get a slap on the wrist you know it's like it's so amazing to think the way in which there is no equal justice under the law even though our country was supposed to be built on equal justice under the law. It was like to cannabis law and all these different laws.

And this gets back to what you're talking about playing a role. Like we have a right now, there's an opportunity to define what the law is going to be moving forward, right? Like we have a voice in there. Mm-hmm. We do. We do. And it cycles.

I mean, we see this stuff over and over again. I mean, when we look at, you know, what's been going on in our country in the past few years, which has been, terrifying. Like when we passed legalization in 2016 and we at the same time as the presidential election,

I was like, I'll give it back. I will give it back. Let's do over. Let's do a do over. Because this shit's about to get really scary. And if you look back into history, when I teach a class on the politics and history of cannabis politics, you know, we're looking at, you know, Anslinger, DuPont, and Hearst, looking at cannabis as, you know, direct competition with plastics and lumber. And we're looking at the fact that, you know, DuPont, Anslinger was married to someone in the DuPont family, which is why they started to demonize cannabis. And at that very same time, Prescott Bush was trying to do a fascist overthrow because he did not like FDR's New Deal policies. So here we are in the throws of fascism again. And we're seeing different policy, but we have to safeguard everything because we are still looking at, you know, people who are very upset that they don't have to safeguard. have the tools to hold black and brown folks down. And there's a very small group of very rich

people that it's in their best interests that we all not get along. Yeah. There's a lot of, if you just, you don't really have to squint your eyes that hard to see the, the wedge of division being placed in front of everybody so that we don't understand that there's a handful of people up here that are pulling all this history. Hey, you guys fight each other. You guys fight each other. You guys fight each other. And the truth is, like, if we just take it back to the lens of history, and if we take for a moment the idea that the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior,

there's a lot of things coming up. It used to be Werner von Braun was like the best rocket scientist. Now Elon Musk is the best scientist. Now you do have this fascist regime that is being concentrated at a level we haven't seen in a really long time. All these things that are opening. You have psychedelics walking hand in hand with eugenics all over again. You know, Huxley all again. Like it's so fascinating to see this playing its role out, right?

Well, and I'll say for the record, Elon Musk is not a scientist. He is hubris and hair plugs. And he has bought everything that he has claimed to discover. Tesla was not created by him. The man is he's making up for something. I don't know. I think it sheds light. Well, it's interesting.

You know what? Let's go down that rabble. Isn't it interesting that, like, he has so many kids. And I don't even think that the women he has kids with have the kids. They're like, all like, has two babies in some way. Like, that's a weird thing to think about, too. Like, you have 10 different kids and you didn't, you know, your wife's really conceived to them? Like, what is going on there in this strange world of wealth that is just so, I don't know.

it's so strange to me, maybe because I don't have that, but it's weird. Well, you know, I mean, like I said before, I don't know the man, but when I look at it, you know, if I was to say something off the top of my head, I'd say somebody has some very unique daddy issues. You know, I think it also speaks to the idea of policy. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the majority of technology that's created in the U.S. It used to be our tax money, went to go and fund infrastructure and technology projects,

which were then given back to the United States people. Now that money goes, fun stuff, and it gets spun off to private corporation, and we all buy it back. And what's, you know, how impactful that is. Like, what's wrong with that? I mean, it's where we, we look at ways to do things cheap. and other places and that our own people suffer. And that's not to say that we can't have amazing collaborations with other places and be global citizens and do great work collectively.

I think that that's a wonderful thing. But when you're doing it to take advantage of people, that's a whole other ball of wax. Maybe this is the problem. Maybe this is the problem. And I think there's been arguments made in the past about psychedelics and cannabis is that people like you and I start talking. People and you, like all of us, start thinking, like, wait a minute. People sit around the dinner table discussing how badly they're getting burned.

Maybe that's the problem with psychedelics according to the people at the top. What do you think? Well, you know, there are some theories around the evolution of the human brain and our access to psychedelics. So, you know, I mean, it's a critical thought is definitely, it's definitely a threat to, you know, you know, the powers that be. And that being said, you know, there's a huge difference between doing critical thought and then doing your research and coming up with like some ideas that are completely off base. Like you really critical thought is really disseminating what's, what's true and what's not and what works for you. And, you know, we have a lot of people out in the world

that are doing their research and coming up with some pretty wild ideas that do not serve them too. So critical thought is 360. It is. It's such a fascinating time to be alive. If I, I tend to really enjoy conversations. Let me try to steer it back a little bit and then we can go off again. Okay. Your journey includes overcoming stage three cancer and advocating for civil rights. How do these personal experiences inform your philosophy on health care, patient rights, and the role of advocacy in shaping a just society. Yeah.

Thanks for asking that. When I was getting sick, I had stage three colon cancer. And when you look at the protocols of like the person who would be dealing with colon cancer, I was too young. And what we found was, you know, I went to go see.

doctor and he kind of patted me on the head told me you have ibs here are some smooth muscle relaxants go home i'll see you when you're 50 and i was like well actually my great grandmother died of colon cancer so you're going to see me when i'm 40 and we've had this conversation you shouldn't be telling me to come back when i'm 50 because if i was somebody who didn't advocate for myself and didn't listen i might do that and be in a bad situation um and i had to actually push and see somebody else and she was like, well, you know, Sarah, weird thing, but I really would like to do a colonoscopy. I know it sounds extreme, but let's get to the heart of the issue. And I was all for it.

And we couldn't get the scope past the tumor in my colon. So, you know, and as when I was going through that treatment, I met people younger than me who were dying of colon cancer because of the lack of critical thought and protocols. and the fact that as patients, when you're not feeling good, not only do you have to take care of yourself, but you have to have the strength to advocate for yourself for a health system that does not have the time nor the money to go beyond the protocols in many cases.

And that's patients' rights are a huge thing. And especially because there is a lot of sexism in medicine. You know, there's women tend to be poo-pooed a lot. when they have problems. And it's, I mean, the fact of the matter is that the gastroenterologist, the first one I saw, was an older guy. And then the person that I saw who actually went and did the colonoscopy was a younger woman that was closer to my age.

And, you know, I actually ended up getting to talk to that other doctor, the one who misdiagnosed me after my treatment. I was two years after treatment, I was getting a colonoscopic. and he was actually in the suite. So I called over to him and I said, you know, you saw me several years ago, told me I had IBS and I had stage three cancer. Please listen to your patients because they're dying. You know, we have, and the fact that the matter is, is even after you're done with your treatment and you know you have had a known cancer and then you have to go back in to get a colonoscopy every few years and your insurance company is telling you, oh, well, that's going to be

$2,300 on your dime. And how many people can afford something like that? You know, it's really, really, and, and, you know, the fact that we don't have good enough preventative care. And the fact that a lot of this stuff is coming from, you know, the fact that people don't have access to really good whole foods. Because when I was going through my treatment, a friend of mine who's getting her Ph.D. in Davis gave me a call and said, she was getting her PhD nutrition, said, you know, hey, I've got something to tell you and you're going to be pretty pissed. There's a reason that you got cancer at 37 instead of in your 60s. And it was because, you know, they're enriching, you know, wheat products with, you know, God, I just like to for a second there, but, you know,

with folic acid. Because folic acid, because folic acid, acid is essential to not have birth defects. And this was happening in areas where there were food deserts where mothers weren't getting access to good food. They weren't getting enough folic acid. And so there were high birth defect rates in those areas. So they decided, well, if you don't have a lot of money, what do you normally eat? Pasta, cereal, bread. So they started adding folic acid to these products, enriching them, which was wonderful for people who were having these issues with birth defects. They went way down. But the other thing that they weren't talking about was the fact that for those of us who have predispositions to certain cancers,

it actually creates greater tumor growth. And maybe instead of enriching foods, get people access to good foods where you have naturally occurring folic acid so that it actually helps them. I mean, because we, and when I was asking, it was like, how long has this been going on, like maybe the 70s or something, I'm thinking, I must have been, you know, you just think you'd have to take it an awful long time for something like that to happen. And they just started doing it in the 90s. So like, these are things that we, yeah, we need to talk about. Like, you know, everybody, everybody deserves to be seen, to be heard, to be loved, to have food in their stomach, to have shoes on their feet, to have medical, you know, medical support when

they need it and preventative medicine and we shouldn't be playing with food like going back to cannabis mont Santos in on the game i mean let's talk about the harm that this is doing the almighty dollar and the fact that you know apparently some people's lives mean more than others which should not be happening yeah here in hawaii people don't talk about it but there's a large part of our agricultural system is all GMO. If you go to Molokai, it's Almansandum. It's a giant farm over there where they're just let's try out this sort of mutant corn or let's try out this sort of thing. On some level, I guess if I'm being, if I try to be empathetic and totally honest, I can understand the reasoning behind trying to create drought resistant corn. Like that could feed a lot of people. I understand the foundation behind it.

And there's tons of good people that work there that share that vision that want to create. that. Yes. But it's, it's, I don't know that we've ever done a realistic cost benefit ratio. Is this particular product that we're making doing more good than harm? Like if you take in the land, the people that are dying, the potential, you know, what was Zika? What was that? You know, like what are these things that are happening based on glyphosophy or, you know, I'm just using Monsato as, as the punching bag here, but what are all these things that are becoming unintended consequences of profit? Are they really good intentions? We've never really done that cost analysis before. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Monsanto is a perfect punching bag. Thank you. Me too.

And, you know, and there are a lot of good people with the best of intentions working for them. Yeah, of course. It seems at the top making those decisions. That's the thing that we should be looking at. Like the people who are, you know, responsible for this, who probably aren't having their families eat that same product that's going out to the general public. I mean, I'll bet you all of their family eats organic because they can afford it. That's the thing. Like, I think innovation is great. And I do think, you know, especially with like climate change and everything, we need to adjust and we need to be looking at things. But then we also need to be asking ourselves, like, who created climate change?

Our existence creates climate change, even without the huge industrial impacts that we have. And that's, I mean, it's that kind of mindfulness. And we can't, you know, life's messy. We can't be living like, you know, like we're all wrapped up in bubble wrap. Stuff's going to happen. We die. We do. Like, that's just, you know, a fact.

But we don't have to, we can have healthy lives. have abundance. We can have people being able to, you know, put food on their table and have a roof over their heads and have access to really good education, which continues the cycle of abundance and health. There's no reason to be living the way we are. There are mistakes that will be made, but rectify them. We're human. We do make mistakes. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's such an interesting time to be alive and get to see some of these ideas and ideologies playing out. And when we look on it, it's so fractal in a way because we can look at this grand scale of it. And then we can bring it back to the policy that's unfolding in front of us now.

And you can see the, especially if we talk about cannabis, we can see that or maybe you could talk a little bit about it seems to me that the price of cannabis has been really brought down. some ways or the price goes up and it goes down. There's a lot of cartels coming in. How are all these intricate moving parts affecting the cannabis industry? I know that's a wide ranging question, but maybe you can start with like the evolution of what's kind of happened so far. Yeah. Well, I mean, six years ago in a meeting, I just looked at everyone. I said, for those of you looking to make cash, the green rush is over. I mean, and last year were flipping packs back in the day where it was three grand a pound, 3,500 a pound. And the The reason it was that expensive was because of, you know, you could go to jail.

It was, you know, there wasn't a lot of stuff. There was stuff available, but you were at great risk handling it. And, you know, and to have it done well is very costly. And that cost behind doing it well has not changed. It is still very costly to make good cannabis. Now, you know, when we use the term weed, it's very apt because it grows everywhere. But how well it grows is another thing altogether. together. So yeah, when we get into legalization, the price is going to go down because if you look at any sort of produce, you look at farmers. I mean, this is why we have farm aid every year is because farmers do not do well. And when we look at monoculture in farming, you know, that's a whole other thing. Like farmers before had small farms, so they grew lots of different things, which not only was able to feed them, but also, you know, to, you know, to,

care of the soil. Monoculture is not a healthy way to exist. And so, you know, when we look at cannabis and the price of cannabis and people wanted to get in to make lots of money in cannabis, it's like, well, with the price of cannabis going down, the only way you're going to make money is to not pay people what they're worth or to cut corners in one way or another. And that's, you know, so then we have, we go from people working in an industry where they're making a living wage to loving what they do and loving the plant, but not necessarily loving the situation that they're in because they are not making enough money to live. And then you're also looking at, you know, before when we had a lot of small growers or lots of interesting cultivars really

well done. You know, just and when we don't have as much of that anymore, everything gets very standardized. I always joke that like, you know, with the large operators comes the land of Mids. And we just, you know, to find like well-grown cannabis, people wonder, well, why is the traditional, you know, slash illicit market thriving? Well, because that's where all the artisans have had to reside because they can't, they can't afford to survive in the legal market. So why don't we make a better way of, you know, ease of entry into the market and allow people to thrive in that market. And then we have a wide variety of prices.

You can have your corporate mids. I mean, it's kind of like going to like target and getting their name brand groceries. It's like, great. Okay. You know, you know it's not going to knock your socks off, but it's going to do the trick. And then, you know, you have, you know, your organic products or your nicer produce. And you can purchase that if you want to. That's what we should be looking at. We should be looking at a wide variety of products available,

but that also means that we have to have a larger amount of people that are actually participating in the legal market. And how do we do that by making it easier for them to participate? And in, you know, when you look at it afterwards, like the states actually get more taxes because more people are participating in purchasing in that market. I don't, you know, when you look at in certain municipalities, the price of cannabis plus the sales tax, plus excise tax, plus whatever the municipality has as their cannabis tax, you're paying a lot more for it. And it becomes almost like a sin tax so that people don't buy from the stores and they go to, you know, whoever their connection used to be. And, you know, it's it's also just easier to get something at a dispensary. Like I used to joke, people were like, oh, this is great. I'm like, yeah.

You don't even have to, like, smoke with me and hear about me talking about my ban. Like, you know, like, let's do this. Yeah. It's so fascinating to me to see all the hands that come out and want a piece of it. Like, in some ways, like, it's just, it's the constant middleman that ruins everything. You know, it's this, I want to get something for nothing and take some from you and take some from you. And they just, it's an interesting way to look at it. I guess another way to look at it might be like the, if we look at beer, like you can see like Budweiser or Coor, you know, all these giant brands.

But then you have these microbreweries, which are sort of like artisans as well. Like they have created this master thing, right? It's, why can it be that model? Is it that cannabis doesn't have the framework to set that up? or it's just too expensive or if we nail it down, what are some of the main reasons that stop that from happening? I think at the beginning it was all about simplification of control. But I also believe that as the industry evolves,

we are going to see that. Because remember, we weren't seeing a lot of microbreweries or anything like that until the 90s. And then that started changing. But then you started seeing the large companies buying the market brewery. Yeah. Because it's kind of like what we saw in movies, right? Remember when there is, like, we had that great time in the 70s where it was like, you know, mainstream movies were getting really experimental and interesting. And then that stopped. And then we started having, you know, the indie movies that were getting really interesting. And then they started getting, you know, folded into the larger companies. And it's that whole old trope that we see in every industry where a large company looks at. that's something cool that a smaller company is doing. They're like, I love your secret sauce.

I want it. They take it. They destroy everything. And they're like, what happened? What happened? I don't know. I guess, you know, it was just too expensive to care. Yeah.

You mean if I pour all this water in your secret sauce that loses its flavor? I don't understand. Like, what do you mean? I can't water this down. You're kidding me. I've got an MBA. that's so funny. It's one of those things where I've talked to people who have come into the industry

who have legit business chops. They've done crazy, interesting, you know, impactful things. And I'm not going to make judgment on where the impact was, you know, in the business world. And they come into cannabis. And I'm like, well, what do you think? Do you think that it's business acumen? I was ask us business acumen or, you know, industry knowledge that's the most important. And they're always, hands down, say business acumen.

But it's both. It's both because our industry has a lot of super talented people who may not have, you know, may not have gone to B school. They didn't go to business school. They don't understand like a lot of the stuff for a strong foundation for a business, but they know how to make a great product and they know what people want. And then you have all these people that have the business chops but have no concept. And they're still saying, oh, grain rush. Oh, it sells itself.

Oh, let's, you know, let's get this to, you know, we'll put it out. We'll have like some big stoner party to bring all of the customers in. And you're like, wait a minute. So you've never spent an afternoon in the waiting room. of a dispensary to see who's really coming in, have you? I mean, yeah, cannabis culture is really strong and stoner culture is a strong, important part of not only our history, but the right now. But there are so many other people who are taking advantage of it who you would never expect and people who could be benefiting from it who would like to do it in a way that's stigma-free

and on their own terms and in something that they see themselves in. So why aren't we looking at that? And why aren't we looking at that through our education? Like when I teach classes, I get people from all over the world attending, curious about products, curious about cannabinoids and terpenes and modes of use, and also very frustrated that what they need isn't available in their area. And then there are these great products that are on shelves that are just collecting dust because nobody knows how to have the conversation around them so that people, interest is peaked,

and they can actually buy something and experiment with it and then talk to their friends about it. Because conversation is normalization. When, you know, you look at the fact that, you know, women are the big decision makers in households about what gets purchased, and there is not a lot of female-centric outreach, you know, it's, it just blows my mind that we're still, you know, looking at these old tropes of what sells and what doesn't and how to interact with people. Or the fact that, you know, educators and cannabis have been constantly,

you know, they started out with jobs, especially in a medicinal market because they're like, oh, the patients, the patients, the patients. And then as soon as we get into legalization, the companies are like, we don't need to worry about that anymore. It's too much of a risk. It takes too much time.

You're too expensive. I don't see the ROI. Well, it sells product, one. It creates a connection to the consumer. Two. Three, it creates a safe container for experimentation so we don't have a Tylenol moment in cannabis. And, you know, it gets people to think critically. about what works for them and what products they might be attracted to.

And cannabis, like, you know, even though the prices of going down, it's still incredibly expensive for people. Nobody wants to take a chance on something that they're not sure if it's going to work or not. So having the conversation helps reassure people of successful outcomes, and it actually helps create those successful outcomes. So when we are looking at policy, when we're looking at pricing, when we're looking at marketing, or we're looking at sales, it's all connected to education, whether we're educating policymakers, whether we're educating

the public, or whether we're educating our staff in the dispensary so that they can have empowering conversations with consumers without behaving like health care professionals, because we certainly don't want that. You know, these are all things that need to be invested in, and in the long run, it affects, even in the short term, it affects ROI, but in the long run, like when I was working for a dispense, three company, the thing that I would always hear was I could get my cannabis for cheaper somewhere else, but you treat me with respect, compassion, and you educate. And that's what most people want. I mean, some people want to grab their stuff and go, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But especially when something's new to somebody, especially, you know, for, I think females in particular like to have conversations about products and really have a deep knowledge so that if they're taking something home, they want to be able to, you know, whoever else would be partaking to be able to explain what it is and what needs to happen with it and how it can help you. I mean, you know, both men and women love to talk about things, but women get really involved in like why something works and doesn't. Whereas a lot of guys are like, you know, it's like, how high does it get me? aesthetics around it. This was like a cut from blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And like I get nerdy about that stuff too. I really enjoy that. But most people are looking at it, especially women from like more of a utilitarian standpoint. So talk to them about, you know, why it is that this is an interesting product and how it might help them. And what it's made out of. And like we've, in California here, we've been looking at some policies coming across the board where you know, people can't be in pictures for advertising with cannabis. And it's like, you don't want to know what your farmer looks like.

Really? Okay. It's fascinating to me. On some level, I see this trend of our own autonomy, somewhat coming back to us. And I love the idea that you spoke about where you can sit with a professional in a dispensary or someone like yourself and you can explain to someone who may be a primary caregiver to their family. This is why this product works. This is what it interacts with.

And in some way, you're taking all the technical jargon out of it. You take away the textbooks that may or may not have been written by the pharmaceutical industry. You take all that out. And now you're coming from this farm to table sort of philosophy of like, yeah, this is what we've found in it. And these are some of the new things we've been doing. We're not sure about this, but these are the people that have taken it.

I have had X amount of cancer patients come in. Not only that, but five out of nine of those patients that have come in have told me that their anxiety has calmed down. You know, like when you could begin to give people back the knowledge that they can take, consume themselves, and they come up with their own ideas about. Now we're really getting back to a community-based medical model that cares about the individual and so much of what's happening here,

whether it's in cannabis or psychedelics. And we do, for a long time, there's been this wedge of, oh, you don't know what you're talking about because you've never had the experience. Or, well, you've never gone to school and we get back to the business chops versus the lived experience. And I love what you said about it being both and. And in some ways, that seems to me to be the bridge between science and spirituality kind of coming back and giving us a more holistic approach. You see that trend continuing to happen? And maybe that wedge of division kind of closing up a little bit? I feel like it's almost widening.

Why do you think that? Well, when I, looking back on, you know, medicinal cannabis days, we were working with an older model where we were having more conversations with people that is Spencer because they couldn't talk to anybody else about it. But we also were working under the auspices of community benefit. it. So in addition to having, you know, the cannabis being involved, it was also a community hub. Like we had, you know, there were other services that a lot of dispensaries offered like, you know, wellness services like yoga and massage and like, you know, a therapist on hand to have like, you know,

anxiety discussion groups or PTSD and veterans groups and things like that. And so, you know, cannabis on its own does a lot of great things. But it takes. takes more than that. It takes a more holistic approach to really help somebody. That's only one part of the equation. And when we're getting into legalization, I see these executives moonwalking away from it. And I see policymakers talking about compliance and all these things. And it's like, yeah, you don't, I mean, you don't want some kid behind the bar giving anybody like advice on their child and CBD and epilepsy. You don't. True. But you should be able to have a conversation with them about, you know, if you've seen a lot of people who have reacted in a certain way to something like being able to make the suggestion, hey, I've had a few, you know, clients come in who have used this for their headaches and they've really liked it.

But let's talk about how you can figure out if it works for you. you know and really like being able to have those those more informed compassionate conversations where you give people information that they can take home and figure out if it works well for them like on on my podcast planted last fall I had one of the last interviews with the late great david crosbie and one of the questions that came in from one of our listeners was you know how do i talk about cannabis to my kids. His answer was, tell them the truth. Because the biggest problem that we have, the reason that people get hurt and the reason we have all these taboos and stigmas, because we aren't having real conversations. And that's, and especially with kids, that makes them really curious. And I'll tell

you, I was a precocious child. So if I didn't have all the facts, I was going to figure it out for myself. And the more that we demystify this, the less exciting it is for people. People either see it as a tool or like, you know, in the case of like younger generations that, and I, I am a true believer that, you know, especially when minds are developing, that, you know, and I, I didn't follow this myself. That was, you know, but I do think that, you know, there is a time and a place. Like, we should wait until our minds are fully developed to really get into. a lot of the experimentation, especially during the times where a lot of things can pop up for us, whether it's like bipolarism, schizophrenia, like that.

And it's not to say that cannabis contributes to any of that, but they really don't have a really good idea of what, you know, what does or doesn't in many ways. So let's just safeguard against that. But as like kids start to see, you know, their mom, or their uncle, you know, using cannabis and then they learn more about it, it tends to diffuse the curiosity. It's like, oh, the old people are using it. It's not so exciting, you know, and just really being, but being prepared also for the time that they do want to experiment with it and they have all of their facts in front of them. And that helps create, you know,

safer situations. It's just like when we're looking at, you know, like from a harm reduction perspective, if people are going to be, you know, using drugs that could create fatalities, why do we not have, you know, things available to either test products? Well, products, but they are products, even if they are in the illicit market to make sure that they are what they are. and in the case of overdoses, having, you know, pharmaceuticals that are able to save their lives and have those available. I mean, these are the things that are really important. And it's, you know, these are also the things that people are actively working against. And then when we get into harm reduction as well, instead of, you know, one of the biggest things, when I was teaching at

city college, I started, was working with a psychologist who had a background in harm reduction, which was a really rich education. And part of the thing that we talked about was not, you know, talking about people having, you know, being addicts, but having bad relationships with substances. And how do you change your relationship with something? And when somebody is having an issue with addiction, instead of looking at that person and being like,

you're bad, you're a loser, you're never going to amount to anything, you know, that kind of shame is what creates that spiral of addiction for people because then they don't feel like they're empowered to get out of it and everything is hopeless and they don't have support from people. More, when people look at relationships with substances as an issue with a person rather than the person that's involved, that really helps. People are able to recover because they are not their addictions.

Yeah. That is a Isn't it weird that we try to treat addiction with addiction? Like, hey, you can never do this again first off. And here's a pill you have to take for the rest of your life to get rid of addiction. Yeah. Or if you've ever had friends that have, you know, gone through programs, it's like, yeah, they may not drink or do drugs anymore. But how much coffee do they drink and how many cigarettes do they smoke? Right.

I mean, that's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, problematic and it doesn't serve them. And we need to find more supportive, compassionate ways to be able to help people make the shift to a healthier way of living. Because we're, as human beings, we're constantly striving for homeostasis. When I've worked with people who have had issues with, you know, substances, a lot of it is self-medication because they have stuff going on. So how do we support them in ways so that they, you know, you can kind of help bypass the fact that the thermostat's a little bit off on what gives them homeostasis. There are ways. And, you know, it's, but there are a lot of people who are just like, nope, they're bad, they're addicts, this is how we treat them. And it's like,

well, if that was your child, how would you, how would you look at that? You see them as a whole person, right? You knew them as a child. You, they're, that, that, that, that, that child, you, that, that, that, that, that, that child like, you know, love and their being and everything is still there. They're wounded. How do we help with the wounds? I mean, we, cannabis has been an amazing tool to help people get off things like opiates, benzodiazepines, other stronger drugs. But, you know, years ago, I had a gentleman come into the dispensary and he had a syringe of fico oil and he brought it in and he put it down on the counter and he looked at me in the eye and he said, Sarah, I've been using this to get off hard drugs and it's not helping me anymore.

And what do I do? And he was like very intense about it. And I just looked at him and I said it's, you know, cannabis is not going to fill the holes. You know, it's a tool to help get you off of things. But if you are having to get so high that you don't want to use your other pharmaceuticals, you need other things in place to help make that transition. This is not a panacea.

This is, you know, this is not a Band-Aid. This is part of a therapy that you have to, like, work with with a professional. And that's the thing. There's no, there's no magic pill that will solve everything for us. We gather our tools. We gather our experts and our support. And we create a plan that gives us a holistic response. That's, that's fair.

to be able to help us. And that's, that's the big thing. So, you know, everybody wants everything to be black and white. It's like, oh, well, someday I tell someone that's around, they'd be like, oh, we'll see. Cannabis doesn't help with that. It's like, well, yeah, it does, but it's a part of it. It's only one part of it. And if somebody needs professional to help, to help with like some sort of soul wound that's driving them to need to shut their minds off and escape, where do they get that help. Let's have that conversation. Yeah, it's, I've been speaking with some, there's some incredible things that are beginning to happen. I'm speaking with a place called moxia journeys. And they're one of the first psilocybin-based addiction treatment centers where they're, you know,

using a full-scale medicine pouch in order to help people solve problems. I get goosebumps when I think about it because I've been speaking with the people that are certified therapist and most of them, I think all of them on some level have been broken. You know, and they have this, it's so inspiring because they have this incredible wounded healer path that they have been on. So not only can they, not only have they done the research and they're paired with people who do have the degrees, but they're coming at it from like all approaches. Like, here's a person that went to this school. Here's a person that grew up and went to prison and they've come. So here's a person from this country. And like, they're bringing like this team of people.

together and they sit and they have a meeting with this person and they figure out and then they're honest. They're like, look, it's not going to be easy and you can't run away from this. This is a confrontation. And when you do face it, you know, and one of the things that I think makes them incredibly successful is the idea of ceremony. It's this idea that when we get in this circle, it's not your problem, Sarah, or George's problem. It's our problem. These things that people are having are a symptom of the society that's manifesting through them. And when we begin to look at that, like we're all part of this. Oh, man, I'm guilty too.

Son of a gun. I'm guilty. How do I help then? I don't want to be guilty or what can I do to help? Like we begin seeing that. We can begin healing. I completely agree. It's, you know, instead of pointing the finger at people being like, it's your problem.

It's your failure. What have we done as a society? Yeah. people. Yeah. And I think that some of the best people for, you know, working with individuals are people who have been impacted by it and has been able to overcome it because you have the compassion, but you also understand the times when you shouldn't be, you know, handling someone with kid gloves. And there's respect because they understand you've been through it. I mean, it's like when I, you know, part of a huge part of my healing, I was a year out of chemo when I started working in

cannabis. And the huge part of my healing was being able to help people that were going through situations, not unlike what I had. And the wonderful thing about it was that I didn't, I didn't handle him with kid gloves. We had real conversations because I remember, you know, when I was sick, I looked a lot different than I do today. And people were like, oh, got to be careful with her. She's a cancer victim. You know, and it's like, I got, I'm not the same person inside. Like, I look different on the outside,

but I've got hopes and dreams and I've had a life and I'm fully functional. Like, let's, like, just be real with me. Right. You know, and it's, so it's, it's always, it's a huge part of the support to be able to meet someone at their level and have that conversation and really just be real with them and support them and be compassionate. And it's not, oh, oh, poor you, you're, you know, it's like, oh, let's, this sucks. Let's,

what can I do to help? Like, you know, I've worked, you know, I've, I've, I've got had these experiences. I've worked with people with these experiences. Let's talk about your experience. And let's, let's put together a plan to be able to, to help you and have your support system be able to help you. Let's give you information to be able to relate to them as well. so they can to continue that cycle of support and destigmatize a lot of the stuff. Because, like, I mean, in the case of cancer, I was called the Great Equalizer because it knows no bounds. It doesn't care what color you are, you know, if you're male or female, what your socioeconomic status is. It's in it to win it.

And, you know, it's one of those things where people either get it because they've been through it. themselves or with someone they love or they're terrified because they haven't but they know that there's always that possibility yeah it's in some ways i think we're describing change from the ground up from the underground up right like it's and if you look at it from a if we look at the way in which the people that are most affected by it and we say that those are the friends and families and the people that have actually had a relationship with it, it's all of us. Because like all of us have known somebody that's been through it. All of us knows someone that's going through it or all of us knows someone that's going to go

through it. And I'm really hopeful that these kind of conversations and the opportunities that we have are really underscored by people and people really begin to understand that we can make the change going forward. You know, let me ask you this one. And your roles on committees and task forces, you've influenced the cannabis industry's future. How do you balance the interests of industry growth with the principles of equity, fairness, especially in the evolving landscape?

They go hand in hand. You can't have one without, you can't be successful in one without the other, no matter what anyone says. My, you know, my work is to be a thorn in the side. You can't have the industry without the movement. We have the industry on the backs of people who have been sick and people who have died. We have, this industry is on the backs of people who have languished in prison for doing what we get to do legally every day. This industry has been built on the inequities of our society, and we can't forget it.

you know, there is, you know, some people will be like, oh, Sarah, what are you saying? We're just going to open it all up and everyone's going to share everything and it's going to be like this rosy land. Well, no, I mean, we know as human beings that that doesn't happen. We are flawed and divisive. But we can, I mean, the one thing that the earlier, you know, cannabis movement and I guess I'll call it an industry because it wasn't legalized yet, but it was definitely people were. you know, making money off of it and they had businesses. In the medicinal times, we found that there was a compassionate model that created abundance. You can be a business owner and make money and give back to your community. And you should. And we see that in other models as well. I mean, look at what, you know, Ben and Jerry's have been doing. And they're actually getting, Ben is in.

Ben Cohen has gotten involved in cannabis and his cannabis brand, he doesn't draw any money down from it. All of the proceeds that come out of it actually go to do good. So, you know, all you rich folks out there that are making lots of money, you know, there is time to give back. It's, you don't, what are you going to do? Barry yourself with it. You've got enough for generational wealth. Start giving back to the communities that gave you your wealth. Start giving back to the people who weren't making enough money or had to go to jail so that other people prospered because that's messed up. It's really, it's time if the chickens have come home to roost. It is time to support your communities.

It is time to make sure that everyone has food in their belly and health care and, you know, doesn't have. have to worry about eating cat food as an old person. It's time. We have so much wealth in this world and so many people that are struggling more than, I won't say ever before because there have definitely been other times of struggle, but the fact that we're looking at, we've had so many conversations about the middle class disappearing and we just have very wealthy and we of people who are struggling. There is no reason for that. It's like you're, you know, you're going to take all your money and put it into

expansion. Great. Who are you using? Like, who helped build your company and did all these amazing things that you don't know, that you just like, in your greed and expansion, when you decide to close down another area because it doesn't work well for you when you go somewhere out? Who suffered? Like, where is the stewardship in business?

There is a place for it, contrary to what anyone might tell you. Stewardship and capitalism can go hand in hand. We can look at a new way of being prosperous and, you know, and having capitalism. And for people out there who are like, I think that socialism is a dirty word, well, do you like pot holes in your roads? because that's socialism when it gets fixed. It comes from our taxes. And we should be, you know, I don't mind paying higher taxes if I know that means that nobody goes to bed with, you know, an empty belly. Yeah.

I think that there's so much negatively charged propaganda around the term redistribution. All redistribution means is that, you know, we're going to change the share ratio here. And if we look at who's actually building the world around us, it's not the job creators. This is like this self-imposed title. Like, I'm a job creator. That's why I'm going to pull all these jobs out of here and the profit and the resources. And, you know, that's like we're back to this model of extraction. And I do think there's a point and we're at that point where generational wealth quickly flips into generational trauma.

And you need not look too much further than some of the wealthiest people in the world's children. These are the people that are using the resource. These are people that are people that have addictions. And these are, these tend to be the people that become the best advocates for these new models. Like, hey, this is wrong. You know, and it, it's so heartbreaking, but also interesting to see the people who have, have the most generational wealth also have the most generational trauma. Like, those things are connected.

And like, we can see it happening in. real time. And I'm hopeful the people that may be, that have accumulated so much and may find themselves staring down the mortality experience. Like, hey, when will you come to the conclusion that you're going to die and you can't take any of it with you? You should be helping, you should try to make everyone around you better. Like, that's the best definition of success, right? Right. Especially for people who have more money than they could ever spend in the lifetimes. I mean, yeah, like I was talking about for, you know, our other fellow citizens of the world is like, of course you all, these families want generational wealth as well, but like,

let's let's talk about how much do you need to create that? All of it. All of it. Yeah, and money does not bring happiness. What brings happiness? What brings happiness is having, you know, not having to worry about your lights being turned off and food in your belly and shoes on your feet and your children get the health care that they need so that you're not stressed and you can actually have wonderful life-giving relationships with the people in your community and in your family. Like for people to not have to want. they don't have to have, you know, fancy cars and things like that. And I'm not judging that.

Like, do it for you, you know, whatever makes you happy. But it's like, you know, it's years ago, somebody came up to me and was like, you know, you've been doing this for a long time. You've probably seen some shit. Oh, yeah, I certainly have. And they lean in and they're like, so what? What? And I was like, what I've learned is that we all want to be seen.

we all want to be heard, we all want to be loved, we all want to be healthy, you know, it's, it's, these, and we're all more alike than we could possibly know, you know, and it's not a, it's not a, I don't see color thing because part of the beauty of us as human beings is our unique differences and our differences in cultures and, and all the things that make us who we are and our people who they are. These are beautiful things. Like we can't push it under the table. But our hearts and minds,

we have a lot more in common than we would ever know. Yeah. I think it speaks to the underlying idea of fear. Like so much fear control, like fear of not being enough, fear of not being love, fear of not being seen as adequate or authentic or worthwhile. Like there's so much of this fear underpins our behaviors. And I think we see it especially in cannabis or psychedelics or those of anybody who's lost anybody.

Like you come face to face with this fear. That seems to be what underlies everything. Maybe the fear of death. That's got to be an underlying current, right? Sure. But it's, you know, it's also like, it's also been weaponized. I mean, yes. Have you ever watched the, I was just talking about this with a colleague the other day.

there's a documentary called The Century of the Self. And there's a whole episode on Edward Rene's, who was one of Freud's nephews. I don't know how many nephews he had. Maybe that was his only one. But he was Freud's nephew. And he was basically the first PR guy. And he was the one who created propaganda to turn the United States and the world into from a society of needs. to a society of wants.

And that's created a lot of the issues. And apparently Freud did not like him. Imagine that. I know, right? I mean, it has been weaponized. It's, you know, and it's, but then I think, you know, for some people who are reflective enough, you know, they use it as their superpower to be able to help people. Like, I understand what it feels like to be less than.

I understand what it feels like to not be heard or to not feel loved. And I don't want anyone ever to feel that way. And these people go forward and they bring their light into the world and create programs and support. Maybe just show up as a good human being and bring light into somebody's life. And we need more of that. Yeah. For people who want to understand that book propaganda that Edward Bernage wrote, I think it's also imperative for people to maybe look at who owns Netflix and his relationship to Edward Bernays and Freud.

I think that there's a family lineage there as well and some weird sort of way. Could do like an ancestry on him and see what? I think that, you know what, I might take that up as a project. I think that would be a fascinating tree just to see the level of, you could see the, not only the tree of propaganda, but you could see how the fruit has become the sap, you know. jump on their front step looks like a vial spike spit into this let's stop it's true it could be done I think

here's another good one that people should check out it's called the Society of the Spectacle by Guide of Ward and then like this will blow you might up okay let me read just one quick thing that I underline in here and this I think it speaks to the idea of where we're at now automation the most advanced sector of modern industry as well as the model which perfectly sums up its practice,

drives the commodity world toward the following contradiction. The technical equipment, which objectively eliminates labor, must at the same time preserve labor as a commodity and as the only source of the commodity. It's pretty deep, but if you just think about this spectacle that we see all the time, the spectacle is everything we're doing. We create the spectacle just to have the spectacle. but I highly recommend it.

I'm going to show it one more time so people can check it out. It's a fascinating book, and it's one of the ones you're going to have to read a paragraph and just sit there for a minute. Digested. Oh, man, it's so mesmerizing.

I've read it like five times, and I have to go with different highlighters and buy different copies because it's like, okay, wait a minute. But yeah, I do think that we, here's something that I've been thinking about recently, and I'm curious to get your opinion. It seems that in the world of psychedelics and cannabis,

that maybe we're sort of in the late 50s again. When I look at psychedelics, I see all this promise of people working with ADHD, with PTSD, and there's all this promise that's containerized in the medical field. Yeah. And that's good on a lot of levels, but it's almost like that field is trying to squeeze it too hard. Do you see some echoes of what's happened in the past and what may be happening now with psychedelics and cannabis as well? Well, I think it's a little different because, you know, you had, you had science that was involved in it before, but it wasn't as out to the general public. It was more on studies and things like that.

And then you had a lot of those people working in there like Ram Dass. Yeah. And then, you know, you had like the merry pranksters and they started doing their own experiments. So it ended up being like kind of more down-home experimentation in the end. And we so yeah, yes, actually, as we're going through, yeah, I do see the parallels. Like, thanks for working that out with me, George. But I also like, you know, it's like when I've had people who have asked me, they're like, Sarah, why don't you do education on psychedelics?

You already do it on cannabis. And there are so many people who have jumped from cannabis into psychedelics. and it's not the same. Cannabis is more of an adaptogen. There is no, really, to get harm from cannabis is, it's very difficult to be harmed by cannabis. We need to have more conversations with psychedelics about where a person is starting out from

and where they're at when they try it. Like the fact that we should be talking more about people on SSRIs and using psychedelics isn't a good idea. because you can have manic episodes from it because you're already tweaking your brain chemistry with a pharmaceutical. So if you're going to do something like that, you need to do that with a physician. And I think that that's a thing that excites me is that there are more physicians that are getting involved. And I want to make sure that they're physicians that actually understand what they're doing. And I say this is someone who has like a lot of dear friends who are physicians.

who are brilliant people and really care. But they're humans. And they have, you know, they don't know everything. And they need to have training and have exposure to this to really have real conversations about it. Or, you know, neuroscientists, love them.

You know, they really understand a lot of this stuff. And understanding that a lot of the things that we should know by now, we don't because of prohibition, Like there should have been a lot more testing and research. We should have a lot more information than we do. If they'd been able to continue, you know, some of the work that they did in the 50s, you know, not MK. Ultra, but you know. And really, like, you know, we should be further ahead than we are.

But due to prohibition, we're kind of starting out from there. So I think, you know, there's a lot of great stuff that's going on with it. I'm incredibly excited to see how much it will be able to help people and open hearts and minds. I think that it's a great opportunity to, I think people a lot of times in the right set and setting actually become more thoughtful and compassionate after having psychedelic experiences. I know for me it was a very healing thing and really helped me understand more about just the world and where I was. in it and how I'm a little tiny part. And it is much bigger than any of us can wrap our heads around. But it kind of gives you a snapshot, like enough for your little brain to handle.

It's so beautiful. I'm often reminded of some of the esoteric literature. For those of us who have had a psychedelic experience, it provides you this unique third person perspective at times on difficult parts of your life. in the future in the past and in the present. And in some ways, when I start looking at the esoteric literature of like the third eye, I'm like, oh, that's what we're talking about. It's like this third person perspective here.

Like you can see things from a different angle. And when you do that, you can move the judgment right over here. You can pick that up in a little bit, but let's just set it aside for a moment. And why am I being such an asshole to this person? Oh, I know why? Because I'm weak. There you go. And it's all you knew before that moment.

Yeah. Because that's the thing. It's like you can't fault someone for something that they don't know because they haven't experienced it. That's, I mean, when I think about like coming from a small town in the Upper Peninsula, and yeah, I was, you know, totally curious about everything. But I definitely had biases that were informed by my little tiny world. And then moving to San Francisco and being like, you know. And some of it I took in and I was like, I align with that.

I understand that. And other things, I was like, well, that's not for me. But I also understand that, like, as long as it's not hurting anybody, I have no say. And even if it was, how much of a say do I have except for by, you know, working with other people who feel the same way I do and starting to create consensus and change because you can't do something on your own. But just really broadening my horizons and understanding that there are other ways of life. that may resonate from me or may not, and that's okay. And how to partake in this amazing experiment that we all reside in every day. It's so beautiful.

Sarah, you have another obligation coming up, and I've only gotten through two of my questions. I hope maybe sometime you can come back, because I think that this is so much fun. And I feel that there's one, do you have time for one more question? Of course, yeah. Okay. Okay. So a few moments ago, we spoke about some similarities, and people have asked you about moving into psychedelics and the ideas of cannabis.

There seems to be a lot of crossover in a lot of ways. And some people are wondering if what happened in the cannabis industry may happen to the psychedelic industry. And I think that they mean by the monetization model, the price model. And there are some similarities in that both of them are planned. both are trying to be monetized. Do you see, what are some differences in some similarities that may, that you could see on the horizon that may or may not happen in the future with one model

and the other? I think there are a lot of similarities. And I think part of it is that a lot of people have jumped from cannabis and psychedelics and wish it to be so. It's so true. The power of wishing is a strong thing. So, yeah, I do. I do see that there will be monetization.

I think that there's going to be a lot more work done in the laboratory around it, especially because we already had things like LSD and other synthesized psychotropics that already exist. Ask any friend that goes to Burning Man, they can tell you. But I also am really hoping that there's going to be more thoughtfulness because this is way more impactful than cannabis. It can create permanent change in our brains. And that's not to scare anybody, but it's to be more thoughtful and to educate people more and to really get more of the scientific and medical community involved in the work. It's really important. This is something that does need to in many ways.

It's like there is a spiritual side of it, but there's also the institutionalization of, you know, the movement is spiritual, the business is scientific and institutionalized. We have to keep people safe. And that's not to say, like, people like, oh, Sarah's fearmongering around it. No, I'm not. But we all know somebody who went on a trip and didn't come back. And why is that? Because a lot of things were taken into consideration.

Set. Setting. their neurodivergence, the purity of whatever it was, who was there to support them? Where were the professionals that were there to make sure that they were safe to create that safe set and setting? There's a lot more thoughtfulness that comes into it. There's a lot more things that come into consideration about the person as a whole. And saying this is not me saying that I'm, as you can probably tell, I'm not anti-psychedelic at all.

I think it's a great thing, but it has to be treated with immense respect and the commoditization of, you know, psychedelics. We have to be careful with that because that can bite us in the ass too. It's something that's beyond you and me. Like when we get into collective consciousness and spirituality and things that are bigger than ourselves, psychedelics is there. That is it. And so we need to have the wisdom to hold it in reverence not only, you know, in its use, but also how we utilize it in capitalism. Yeah, it's it, there's a really, everyone should look this up. There's a really cool conversation between Terrence McKenna and Ram Dass where he tells a

quick story. Can I tell you this quick story? No, please do. Okay. So they're sitting in a bar in what used to be Czechoslovakia. I think that's where it is. And they're talking about the 60s and what happened with the psychedelic movement and all of this. And Ram Dass says to Terrence McKenna, let me tell you a story. And I'm paraphrasing here.

It's something along the lines of there's this maddened warlord who decides that he's going to conquer the entire peninsula that he lives in. And he's making his way through the peninsula fighting a violent, bloody war. and the only real people that have caused opposition to him are like the clergy, like the people of the cloth. And those are the only ones who even held a candle to breaking down his campaign because they had a different belief system. And so he went out of his way to make sure that those particular individuals were strung up and brutalized in a way that sent a message to everyone out there. And he moved from province to province doing this. And as he comes upon one of the last unconquered provinces, he sees the leaders there and they say,

oh, great warlord, everyone is in so much fear of you. And all of your enemies of the cloth and the clergy have fled except for one. And he becomes enraged and he's like, how dare this man try to stand? What do you mean he didn't leave? And he's waiting for you in the ashram. And the general just furious makes his way to the ashram. He blasts open the doors and he sees the priest just. standing there calmly and he walks over to the man. And he says, spit flying out of his mouth.

Don't you know who I am? Don't you have any idea how brutal I am? And don't you understand that I could take my sword and run it through your belly without blinking an eye? And the priest just stands in front of him. And he says, and don't you know who I am? I'm the man that could have your sword run through my belly without blinking an eye. And it's just like, you know, at that point in time, there's this pause between the two men. And you just see Terrence McKenna go, And so that's what happened, right? When the authority came for us, we ran for the hills. You know, and it's like, it's such a, I wish I, I, I want everyone to go look at it.

I'm trying to put it in the show notes because it's such a beautiful moment between these two intellectual giants talking about what may have happened. And the reason I bring it up is, because there's a real possibility that can happen again. I think without a doubt, there's going to be, and people get mad when I say this, but look, there's going to be another Jones town. There's going to be another man to on some level. You know, and maybe it's not that brutalized, but psychedelics will be blamed for another link letter's daughter jumping out of a window.

Like, they will be blamed on these things. I'm not saying in the past they were the cause of those things. I'm not trying to get that twisted. Right. There will come a time when those things get blamed upon them. And what will happen? Will we run for the hills? You know, what happens when the industry comes in is like, we're shutting it all down.

It can't be, it can't be centralized. It can't be monetized. And I hate the fact that you're threatening the model I already have. That's a real conversation, right? It's a very real conversation. And part of it is that we have to really be cognizant of the cult of personality. Yes. And people being, having predatory behavior on people who are seeking and maybe vulnerable.

And then I think it also is a conversation for people who are seeking. may be feeling vulnerable to really, you know, look within and ground and be very cognizant of who you look up to. You know, there's, there's, I mean, I, oh, I usually have my, yeah, you want to grab it? Go ahead. I'll just tell you. So I'm going to totally, I don't think I'm going to say her name correctly, but one person who really influenced me was Pama Children. She's in Nova Scotia and she is a Tibetan Buddhist nun. And she's she was the head of Gampo Abbey.

And she talks about, you know, there's this book that I got. The two of my favorite books of hers are called When Things Fall Apart and Finding Peace in Times of War. And she talks about making friends with your fears and being grounded and really just you know, not running from the things that make you want to run. And it's, I think that, you know, it's just an amazing tool to be able to have, you know, this is a woman who had felt like her whole life was like falling upon her. She's from the United States and she's, you know, she's a white woman. So, different very Western.

and she chose to be a nun later in life. She had been married. She has children. She actually has family in Berkeley here. And, you know, she had one of the worst things happened to her that her marriage failed. And, you know, she was very, you know, her relationship, she was very invested in. And it's like, what do you do when everything falls apart? What do you do when your life sounds like a really sad country song?

And we've all had that when it rains, it pours. So, you know, yes, we look to other people for guidance and support. But how do we figure out the ways to look within as well and find that quiet, calm place within ourselves, where our voice is strong and our compass is strong. Because in this world that we're living in, where we're constantly having a barrage of stimuli, whether it's just the crazy way the world is or social media

or the fact that you're looking at your bank account and you're sweating because you're wondering how you're going to pay rent. Where, you know, these are all these distractions that take us to other places of fear where we aren't able to be our best selves. How do we reclaim that? How do we reclaim our power? because we can. It's possible for us to all do that. We all know stories about people who have

come up against insurmountable hardship and have come through it, not unscathed, but wiser for it. And what do we do? What do we do with that wisdom and how do we spread that in the world? And how do we find that for ourselves? You know, there's something that I've been talking, I've been speaking with some death duels lately. And the things that they talk about when they share parts of the conversations they've had with the dying, they're so inspiring in so many ways because, you know, they're never talking about, I wish I would have worked harder. I wish I would have put another 80 hours.

I wish I would have made more money. It's never things like that. It's I wish I was a better husband. I wish I would have been a better father. I wish I would have been a better mom. I wish I would have spent more time with my family listening. And I think from some instances I had and talking to people like, maybe I'll just ask you this question.

Like everything is stripped away. When you're facing a stage three or a stage four cancer, is everything stripped away from you? Is there clarity that becomes involved with that? It's some level there is, right? Yeah. When you're, you get stripped of your ego pretty damn fast. I was getting better when it came back.

And, you know, I had two different times during chemotherapy. I almost died. And the first time it happened and I was going through anaphylaxis. And my body on the outside was like, fighting, fighting, fighting. But on the inside, I was remarkably calm. And at this moment, I was like, ooh. So this is what it's going to be. Never thought it would be like this.

Well, that's interesting. My body's fighting. I don't, I'm not fighting, but my body is. And you're just kind of like accepting the fact that shit's going down. And it's going to be, you know, it's like, well, either way, it's going to be all right. And that was actually a conversation I had with Crosby because we were talking about his fear of dying, which now just like breaks me. because it wasn't too much long after that that he did pass. And I was telling him that I had become very at peace with the idea of death

because I had faced it. And my mind went to curiosity rather than fear. And he was just like, well, I hope I feel that way too. And I, well, you know, my thought is just always that, you know, my greatest wish for anybody is to have a good death. But, yeah, I mean, going back to, what you were asking, it totally changed the way I looked at things. And I think it helped me, I've always, you know, I've always been a compassionate person, but it helped me have greater

compassion in different ways where it wasn't so much like, oh, poor you, but it's kind of like, well, let's talk about it. Like compassion, like, stripped down to just, let's have this connection. and also kind of like going back into a retail environment as an adult, because normally we do those things like waiting tables in retail when we're one people, and we don't have, we haven't gathered a lot of learnings yet. Like seeing how people treat you when you're behind a bar and, you know, looking at it going, oh, this isn't a reflection on me. This is a reflection on you and the fact that there are people who have to make people in their eyes seem less than so that they feel better about themselves.

And just when you're still in the midst of retrieving your ego, watching other people's struggles with ego every day and then reminding yourself when you're well and your ego is back and fully intact to like check yourself because you're like, oh, don't be an asshole or just like not getting as bothered by things like not thinking things and it's not to say I don't overthink like my husband got me a t-shirt that says give me a moment while I overthink this. That's his love language t-shirts I love it but it's

you know it's being cognizant of like the patterns that you go into and understanding that you know you're part of a much bigger picture and I think that you know and also like being in the chemo suite and I had met this one guy because we all get to know each other when you're there on the same day one physician who was in his 80s he was still practicing and he had stage four cancer and um the next time I came in after I'd had my my first

near-death experience with chemo he introduced me to someone else he's like yeah this is Sarah I met her on the day that she almost died and it's like oh hey man you know and we're all just really real like with all like gallows humor about stuff and it's like you know just the things that when we were well we probably would have been like oh you can't joke about that and all of a sudden you're like why can't i why can't i joke about death i'm here like why can't i joke about my cancer it's here what's going to happen like it's not it's not like i'm going to curse myself or anything the reality is i mean it's i had a friend who came to visit me after cancer.

She had just finished her treatment, and she showed up, and she was just glowing. Her hair was growing back. It was like baby bird hair, and she came with, like, a basket of goodies for me. And she's like, I'm here to tell you it's good on the other side. You know, that day I'd had a really hard day. I'd had neuropathy that had made my heart skip a beat, and I'd had some, you know, I hope your listeners don't mind some potty humor. but I had actually gone, I had pooped my pants that day.

So she was like, how are you doing? I'm like, well, I thought I had a heart attack and I shit myself, but everyone was really good. And it's like, you know, just like, that's a conversation I never would have had. I was so proper. And it's like, life's too short to be proper. Life's too short to be careless and uncaring. You know, be real, be loving, be present. These are like some of the, I am so lucky that I, you know, people say, oh, you're so brave to go through cancer.

I had no choice. We have no choice when life throws us things like that. But if you're lucky enough to survive, remember the gifts that come with it. Because I got a lot. I never would have chosen it. I still wouldn't choose it. But I found my heart's work. and I found a humility and a mindfulness that I didn't have before.

And if anything, I'm grateful for that. And I'm grateful to have made such amazing connections with people who have continued to survive and some that aren't with us anymore. And it would break my heart. But I was honored to be there with them. Is it like I'm honored to be here with you today? Thank you. the feeling is mutual.

I love getting to hear and play a small role in sharing some stories that are very meaningful and that touch people's lives. And I guess there's good news and bad news. And I guess the good news is that if you have been with someone who's been through cancer or you've lost a loved one or you've seen lost in your life, you know what we're talking about. And I guess the other good news is if you haven't, you're going to. I guess there is no bad news, right? Life happens and just get into it. Make the most. Like really, don't let fear hold you back.

And it will always be there. Right. Fear will never go away. But like, you know, like Pemish says, make friends with your fear. And, you know, it's don't judge yourself. It's okay to be afraid, but don't let it rule you. and really get out there and make a difference in the world. You know, whether it's being kind to somebody,

whether it's helping someone across the road, whether it's getting politically involved, which I think everyone should do. I think everyone, we are citizens of the world and our impact is greater than we can ever know. Really, it's not, you've got the time. Make your voice be heard, make a difference, and care about other people.

don't the othering of other people and blaming them for your hardships will never serve you that's really well said i think it's beautiful advice and i once heard that there's a famous quote i forgot who said it but it's something along the lines of the only way out is through in some ways that's what psychedelics and and medicine do right like it helps you confront that fear and so many times we just run from it yeah yeah that's it. I mean, I, you know, we can't all, you know, not all of us are built to live our lives and service. It's the small things that we do. Like I, I just had wavy gravy on my show. And, you know, and everyone sees wavy as, oh, it's that guy from Woodstock. Yeah,

the guy who dresses up like a clown. And it's like, yes, and. The man has spent his whole life serving other people. Over 50 million people have sight because of wavy's And he lives in a commune and has a little room. He started it, but he lives no differently than anyone else. And he lives his life in service. You know, they call him Saint-Misbehaving for a reason. And it's, you know, even if we can't do that, even if that's not a comfortable place for you to be, you have a lot of power to make the world a better place.

I love it. I love it. Sarah, we're coming up on your time. Oh, yeah. I got a bounce. I know. I know you got to go. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. Please go into the show notes. Check out Sarah's podcast. Check out all the things she's doing. She's an incredible human being with a very unique way of translating vision into reality. And I hope more people are being exposed to you now because you deserve all of it.

That's all we got. Hang on one second. I'm going to I'm going to talk you briefly afterwards, but I'm going to hang up with the people right here. Okay. Ladies gentlemen, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. That's all we got. Aloha. All right.