TrueLife - Epiphanies & Evolution: A Philosophical Reflection on Shaping Leadership Styles Alex McNab-Lundbäck

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Welcome, Alex McNab-Lundbäck! 🌟 As a seasoned navigator in the realms of communication, media relations, and personal branding, your journey from Downing Street to McNab-Lundbäck Communications speaks volumes. Your commitment to helping Tech CEOs and Leaders transition from Subject Matter Experts to Thought Leaders is truly commendable.Navigating the challenges faced by CEOs and Founders, you understand the struggle of moving beyond titles, the uncertainty in content creation, and the fear of going unnoticed. Your 15+ years of experience, spanning diverse organizations, showcase a wealth of expertise in overcoming these hurdles.Your tailored services, designed to boost confidence in storytelling, strategically position leaders as ‘Thought Leaders,’ and leverage existing resources, demonstrate a thoughtful and effective approach. Your emphasis on organic growth, authentic communication, and engagement resonates with the essence of building true authority.Whether it’s collaboration, coaching, or addressing specific communication needs, your guiding hand promises to elevate profiles from mere names and titles to impactful Thought Leaders. Ready to embark on a transformative journey, Alex? The stage is set for your ascent! 🚀✨mlcomms.dkhttp://linkedin.com/in/alex-mcnab One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. Hope everybody's having a beautiful day or evening or lunch or wherever you are. I hope that the world is smiling upon you. I hope you realize there's a little miracle about to happen for you. I don't know what it is, but I bet you there's something good about to come your way.

One thing that might be coming your way is this great show with an incredible guest I have right here. The one only Alex McNabb-Lunbach as a seasoned navigator in the realms of communication, media relations, and personal branding. His journey from Downing Street to McDab-Lunbach Communications speaks volumes. Your commitment to helping tech CEOs and leaders transition. from subject matter experts to thought leaders is truly commendable. Navigating the challenges faced by CEOs and founders, you understand the struggle of moving beyond titles, the uncertainty in content creation and the fear of going unnoticed.

Your 15 plus years of experience spanning diverse organizations showcase a wealth of expertise in overcoming these hurdles. Your tailored services designed to boost confidence in storytelling, strategically position leaders as thought leaders, and leverage existing resources. sources demonstrate a thoughtful and effective approach, emphasis on organic growth, authentic communication, and engagement resonates with the essence of building true authority. Whether it's collaboration, coaching, or addressing specific communication needs, your guiding hand promises to elevate profiles from mere names and titles to impact both thought leaders.

I hope everyone is ready to embark on this transformative journey. Alex, thank you for being here today. Thank you so much. And thanks for that introduction. It was kind of certainly better than then I could probably introduce myself and sums up everything that I've, that I've been wanting to say. So it is, it is my pleasure to be here. Wow. First off,

I'm stoked you here and it's, we've got, we're crossing a pretty big time gap over here, but I think it's, I think it's relevant. I think that the same way we can use this technology to bridge this gap in geography, we're bridging a gap in authenticity and leadership. And that's kind of what you're all about,

man. Maybe you can give us a little bit of a backstory about, how you got here today and what you're working on. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, I mean, what was really interesting is that as you were doing your introduction, and I know that I also have a lot in my marketing material is that word thought leader. And I know that I hope that we're talking a little bit more about that because because I can I actually start to hate that term more.

But I'm going to go into that. I'm going to go into a little bit later. But essentially what I actually have always been about or what I've always been passionate about is leadership communications. And I think that when I started in communications generally, that was always something that I had kind of on my mind as something that I was just fascinated about. How we communicate, how leaders communicate,

how we can communicate messages. And I've kind of done it a little bit, a bit of everything, right? So I've done commercial PR and I've done leadership communications. I've done video production. I've done content production. I've been a journalist. list. So in a way, I've kind of tried it all to figure out kind of where I slot in, which is what we're always trying to do, right? Like, where do we fit in in this world of ours?

And I've kind of settled on leadership communications. And I'm going to keep and more use that term leadership communications rather than subject matter experts to thought leadership, because it sounds good, but I'm kind of, the more I said it, the more I questioned it myself. about this concept of thought leadership. So, but that's, that's kind of a little bit about kind of where I'm coming from. But it is about leadership communications. It's about actually, but it's not just about leadership communications because it's actually about how we all communicate.

And then that kind of takes a little bit of a spin of kind of like, right. So are we all leaders in our own right? We might only be leading our families. We may only be leading our partners. We may only be leading our friends or our social circles. but we are all leaders at heart, which means that we are all communicators at heart. We are all storytellers at heart.

And if we can improve those skills, then we'll become better leaders, better friends, better partners, better people. And that's like that's really, I think that what I'm starting to narrow down even further. Like I started off by doing this subject matter experts into thought leaders.

I was fascinated by thought leadership. I still am because I think that the kind of kind of, kind of what it actually is and what what people maybe think it is is actually something different to what it actually is in certainly in my mind so I think that that's really fascinating and so I kind of I kind of caught upon that but really what it's about what I'm about is about getting people and helping people to communicate better because it is I strongly believe that it is the one skill that if you can if you can communicate better, if you can communicate well, then so much of your life is improved. Your relationships are improved. Your careers can be improved because you're better

at interviews or you're better at communicating your messaging. You have better relationship with people at work because you're communicating your ideas and maybe some of those innovative ideas are getting implemented at work which makes you feel better about yourself, which gives you more positioning. Maybe it gets you that promotion. Likewise, if you can communicate better, just when you're at the supermarket, you feel better about yourself, you feel more confident about yourself.

So if we improve our communication skills, then actually everything else in our lives can also improve. And like that is a hugely powerful skills I have, right? Yeah, I couldn't agree anymore. Is it, is what we're communicating meaning? Are we communicating meaning to people? Is that the thing that we're passing between us and what makes our lives better, whether it's internal dialogue or whether it's a relationship? Is it, what's the relationship to meaning?

It's meaning. It is meaning. But it's also about making connections, which I guess is also connected with meaning. So I think you're right. You could sort of say, well, you know, what is it that we're communicating? And I guess that's kind of the second stage. But I do think it's about making connections. And I think that that's what really great communication does, right? when you hear an amazingly powerful speech,

you believe that it's powerful because you are making a connection with that speaker. When you are listening to a partner or you're listening to your family and they're communicating to you in a way that resonates with you, that makes you feel something, makes you feel an emotion, gives you that dose of dopamine, gives you a sense of emotion. All of that is because ultimately what it's about is that you are making a connection. And that's what also great communication makes. So by you write, by communicating with meaning, by communicating your messages more succinctly, more clearly with more gravitas, you are making stronger connections.

And that is really what life is about. That is what society is about. It's about making actually meaningful connections. You can make connections all the time, but it's about making meaningful connections. Yeah, I love it. It's, it seems to me maybe this could be paired with like neurofeedback. Like maybe if you could see what was happening in the brain as you're making that connection. Is that too far out there?

Like that might be a good strategy. I don't think it is because I think that that is what it's all connected, right? Because, you know, actually if you take, you know, when I, when I asked you a little bit about kind of like, what are the angles of this conversation, what are we going to be talking about and you can have mentioned philosophy. And I think that then you start talking about kind of like what is what is. good communication actually actually doing and that's when you start bringing in the science to it like it's giving us a dose of endorphins it is giving us a dopamine injection like basically we're all just drug addicts and that's what we're seeking right that is what we're seeking we're seeking that next that next injection of of some kind of neurological drug that is that is going to make us feel something

it's going to make us feel happy it's going to make us feel sad it's going to make a connection it's going to mean something to us. And that's actually kind of what we're constantly searching is for that, for those messages, for those stories and for building those connections that actually means something to us, which will give us, yeah, maybe it's a dopamine hit or maybe it's an emotional hit or maybe it's something else. So, so I think you're right. Like, you know, if we could see of something, we were kind of constantly connected to a mind map to see.

And, you know, and they have done those kind of studies in terms of like, you know, injections of dopamine and serotonin and all those things and what that actually means. But taking the science out of it, really, it's about emotions. And it's about how communication and how different forms of communication and how stories and how making connections make us feel and how they build on our emotions. Yeah, there's a great quote that says, people may forget what you say, they may forget what you do, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And like, that seems to be the foundation of communication. You know, I think it's Carl Young who talks about everyone is a mirror in some way our reflection of you. And when you can begin to see the negative things in people and realize, hey, that's a negative thing in me. I recognize that, you know, or that's a positive thing.

I want to, I want that to come out in me. like this idea of empathy maybe has a relationship to connection and this idea of people as mirrors as a connection. What do you think? Usually. And actually, so much of communication skills is also about psychology. So, you know, when we learn or when we hear about what good public speaking is, a lot of it is mirroring. Like, you know, so it's kind of like we feel empathy when we start mirroring maybe the way that people speak or the way that what people are doing. If someone is feeling very closed in, if we start.

but also getting very close and closed in, too. That makes us feel warmer. That makes us feel like we're making connections. It's making us feel like we're making a stronger connection because that person is taking an acknowledgement in how that person's talking, how that person's feeling, how their body language is. So when we do mirror those reactions, when we mirror someone's way of speaking, you know, who was it who said that,

you know, imitation is the greatest form of flattery? Well, it's absolutely true. We feel a greater connection when when somebody is imitating us in sometimes, you know, minute, slight ways. But it's that imitation that builds that connection. Do you not like thought leader because it sounds like it's condescending in some ways? Like this person is a thought leader. Let's go into why I hate thought leader. Let's do it.

Let's dive right into that. As anybody will see it, anybody will go on my LinkedIn and everybody will see my my webpage and you know I talk about thought leaders a lot because I caught on to this subject matter expert into thought leader and then I actually started thinking about what that really meant and really it was about improving communication skills and the reason why I don't like thought leader is because it has been given this gravitas it has been given this pedestal it has been given this high and mighty you can become a thought leader I say it myself right you can become a thought leader. And I really started kind of looking at it and going,

what is it, actually, what is a thought leader? Like, what does it mean to be a thought leader? Now, you can break it down and you can start talking about what it means leading in thought. Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. But how do you go about that? How do you start going leading in thought? and do you just become, you know, I look at people who we regard as thought leaders and ask myself, like, are they really a thought leader and why? And there are some people, I don't know whether this is the avenue for me to name names of the thought leaders who I don't really believe are thought leaders. But there are some people, let's say, who have made a name for themselves because they had a

thought or more actually accurately, they communicated a thought that was already out there. Because a lot of thought leaders, i.e. thought leader celebrities nowadays, they haven't actually had anything new to say, but they have had a platform to say it. So they have kind of brought to the forefront something that has been said before, but then they suddenly get it gets attributed to them. the problem with that is is that then they see themselves as high and mighty thought leaders which means that every time they have a thought

suddenly they're inspirational suddenly they are put on this pedestal again because they've communicated a thought they had well whatever we could all do that right wouldn't that be amazing I don't know I'm not sure whether I can be swearing on this podcast I'm trying to contain kind of contraign my lungs a little bit

but like but why can't but why can't we all do that like you know And if we can, like, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Like, you know, is, and maybe our thought isn't really that meaningful. That also may be fine. But what, that's kind of what I don't like is that these thought leadership celebrities, to give them a title that I can't think of something else is, is actually probably what I hate.

So, and as a result, like people, we don't talk about them about, like, celebrity thought leaders. We just talk about them being thought leaders. And what I don't like is is this, that, you know, they are experience, they are subject matter experts in one thing, but then may become a thought leader. And suddenly they are a subject matter expert in everything. And we can't be thought leaders in everything. And that's the issue that I have with. Maybe that is the issue that I have in thought leadership. So there are two sides to it. One is the fact that if we actually go down to the organic definition of what a thought leader is, then I don't think that we should all

try and become a thought leader. And I don't think that because of the ways that I've just mentioned. But I also question whether thought leadership is really the title at all that we should be. Maybe we don't really need a title. Maybe it is just about, you know what? We can all be going out there

and we can all be communicating better. And if that is because you want to advance your career, if that is because you want to advance your relationships, If that's because you want to appear more confident and more charismatic to your friends and to your family, cool. If that's because you want to do a TEDx talk or a TED talk even, that's also fine. But like kind of know your reason for becoming a thought leader and actually then just stripping away that title of grandiose and actually say, what I really want to do is communicate better. And some of that will be communicating innovation, we'll be communicating something that's interesting,

communicating a story. But that doesn't necessarily make me a thought leader. That just makes me a great communicator. And there's no problem with that. Like, I think that's a great thing. I think we can all be better communicators, or we all should be aspiring to be better storytellers and better communicators. But we don't need to or should aspire to becoming a thought leader,

parsee. Yeah, that's really well said. I admire the breakdown of it. And after I hear you talk about it, yeah, thought's pretty vague. Like, thought can mean anything. You know, you could be, if you're a thought leader, does that mean all your thoughts?

You're the leader in all your thoughts, you know? Exactly. Like, if I have a thought now, I'm like, if I know what, he's a thought leader. I think I'm going to go and get another coffee. Now I might communicate that to my wife. And my wife will say, that sounds like a great idea.

I'm going to go and have a coffee too. Am I then a thought leader because I have led that person in thought? You know, and so that's why when you really break it down as to what a thought leader is, leading in thought, leading with thought, what does that actually mean? You know, it does it have to be an inspirational, wow, that's amazing, this is breakthrough type thoughts, or actually can it be, you know, I've got a thought, I've got a viewpoint on this, and I'm going to communicate. it in this way and I'm going to do that through great storytelling or I'm going to do that through charisma and we do that through better communication skills and that's what thought leadership is. That person may when you do that, you don't need to have, you know, 50 billion followers or whatever it is that you're aspiring to to become a thought leader, but you are communicating

your thoughts and your messages and your stories that are forming connections and you're because you're communicating them in a meaningful way. And that maybe that's what a thought leader is, in which case we could all become thought leaders, but we've got to change the definition of that. If I go out there and sort of say, hey, we can all be thought leaders. People were sort of saying,

you're a fucking idiot. Like, no one's going to, like, we can't all have two billion followers. We can't all do this. We can't all have a TEDx platform. We can't all do this, this, this, this, this. And I'll say, yeah, you're right. But that doesn't make us any lesser thought leader.

if we are communicating a strong message in a meaningful way that's forming connections by telling stories. Yeah, in some ways, it makes me start thinking that it sounds so Bernasian. Like maybe the idea of a thought leader is something that's given to us so that we model our reality in a certain way. You know what I mean by that? Like a thought leader is someone that is told, hey, this person's a thought leader. Oh, we should follow them. In some ways, the idea of a leader means we need someone to think. for us. You know what I mean?

Like in some ways it's like, oh, I see what's happening. Here is a mask someone puts on so that everyone follows them around. But then the real guy's probably pulling the strings, especially when it comes to celebrities, right? He's the emptiest barrel makes the loudest sound, man. Some of those barrels are pretty empty.

I think you There's a good part of that. I think that societally, I think that we, maybe psychologically, we do love celebrities. Of course we do. Like, you know, that's how all of these reality TV shows, these celebrity programs, why TMZ, or whatever it is, all of these channels that talk about celebrities and what they have for breakfast.

We actually, we actually care. Maybe a thought leader in the traditional sense of the definition, not sort of a newfound definition of it, but in the traditional sense of the definition, maybe thought leader is just what, I don't know, like an intelligent celebrity, a, or. corporate celebrity in that sense. Like if we think about the people that we think of thought leaders, right? And some of them are. So I'm not putting them all in the same category here. But we think of people like Simon Signing, of course, and I have my own views on him. But people like Richard Branson, people maybe even like Bill Gates, like, you know, the people that we see quoted.

People we see with a fancy background and a quote. Actually, they are corporate celebrities in their own role. Right, but because they say something, oh, that is really profound, even if it's actually not that profound. But we assume it is because they are a corporate celebrity, if you will. Yeah. And I think that that's really interesting about, again, like going back to the title that we bestow on who we think it are a thought leader. Whereas, you know, I see plenty of people on LinkedIn, for example, where, you know, they have maybe a thousand or a couple of thousand, maybe even less than that.

But they'll come out with something, which is a fantastic story and it means something and they have a message to it. And I instantly feel a connection with them because they have told a message and they've told a story in a particular way and something that they've lived and they've put out there into the world. Now, you could say that they are a thought leader. They are communicating a thought and they have led in thought because it's made someone think in some way, shape, or form. But we will never bestow the title of thought leader on them because they don't have millions of followers and they haven't appeared on Diary of a CEO and they haven't got a TEDx talk. And, you know, that is what we regard as someone who is a thought leader.

But actually, you know, there is a thought leader in all of us. And again, that kind of sounds shitty in marketing. But actually, when you, when you, you know, that is what I am all about. like we are all inherently great storytellers. Since we've been sat around the goddamn campfires, we've been telling stories to each other. We all have innate storytellers

in us. And actually that's what I believe a thought leader should be aspiring to, you know, telling stories, but communicating a message with meaning and making connections through the telling of those stories. And that's what a thought leader should be. So when I go out there and say, you know what,

I think we can all be thought leaders, and people will sort of say, well, that's that's bullshit. Like, you know, we can't all have a TEDx talk and we can't all appear on Stephen Bartlett. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we can all tell better stories. We can all tell stories better. We can all communicate more meaning in our lives and to the ones that mean something to us. And we can all form better connections. Yeah. That to me is probably what being a thought leader actually is. And the reason, and sort of just conclude, the reason why, you know, I started and, and why maybe I'm,

I'm going to start moving away from using the term thought leader is because of this misinterpretation of what thought leadership actually is. And so instead kind of bring it back into kind of like, what do I actually do? And that is, and what do I actually want to do? And that is to help people communicate better, to have, to give people more confidence to allow people to communicate their thoughts, their message, their career, their stories in a better, more meaningful way than make stronger connections. That's what I'm really about. And, Yeah, I think that that's something that I've come, you know, the moment I started using the word thought leadership more and more I realized how much I hated it. And so now I'm in this kind of this crossroads where, okay, cool, I'm going to start changing my marketing material, but also I actually want to start talking to people like yourself about why I'm not going to be using that term going forward and what I actually believe about this term thought leadership. And also because I think it's actually a term that's going to become redundant very, very suit. You know, like all of these things, you know, there are certain terms that we all kind of

jumped on the bandwagon of, you know, and then two years down the line, no one's using it, or they just think it's, you know, old fashioned. Like, you know, we've even stopped using influences now. We're content creators. Well, isn't it the same fucking thing? But, but like, you know, so then you're like, well, what is an influencer anymore? Do we not like influencer because it's got this bad reputation? And maybe thought leadership is going to be like that. Like, you know, we are, we are going to start sort of saying, oh, like, you know, it's, it's not right to be seen as a thought leader. You know, the same way that now we kind of have this negative interpretation when we hear the word influencer. So we started to call them content creators instead because that just sounds a little bit more higher brow.

But actually, they're doing the same thing, right? They're creating content to get awareness, to inspire people, to influence people when they're doing it via branding deals and everything else. So it doesn't change the fact that they are influenced. is just because they're calling them content creators now. Like, it just sounds a bit better, I think. Yeah, I like it. It brings to a question to my mind that, you know, when we begin changing the words we use,

I think we change the way we model reality. I think a lot of like the subject-object relationship. And in that, you know, if it's sentence structure, at least in the English language, but in the sentence structure, We have this subject-object relationship. And, you know, it's really a very linear way to see people or relationships. This is a subject and an object.

It's so, on some level, it's so, it frustrates me because it's mechanical in nature. And it's like, you're a subject, you're an object. But no, I'm a human being, damn it. I have all kinds of dimensions to me. I have all kinds of weird angles and, like, different things. But when we find ourselves stuck in this subject-object relationship, it's really hard to have an original thought. It's really hard to see things from, you know, this perspective or this different angle. But maybe that's what's happening.

Maybe we're shifting gears from just being a subject-object relationship and there being another avenue into this. And that's why we're changing from influencer to content creator because we're shifting our focus in the way we use our language. What is that? What do you think? Is that too abstract? No, I don't think it is too abstract.

I think that that's probably true to a certain extent. I think that people like things. They like it to be kept. simple. Like, you know, it's like, you know, and that, but I think that is why we give titles on something. Like when we, when we, when we hear the word celebrity, let's go back to that. Like, if we, when we hear the word celebrity, we, we instantly know what that means. Like, we don't have to sort of say, you know, instead of saying celebrity, we could say someone who has a TV show that got at least one million viewers, someone who is recognized in the street. But we don't. We have to give them a

title. And I think that's a little bit like thought leader. Like, you know, now it is like this this kind of corporate influencer or this famous intellectual you know but we have to give them some kind of title so at the moment that's thought leader further down the line maybe we'll think of a different term for it so I think that that's what it's really about is it's about giving a title on something and then that is as you say like that is the problem with that is because it actually oversimplifies things you know and and and you're say you have that sort of subject object, you know, that's, you know, I always think of that when also when we go back to companies, right? So when we think about companies, I, one thing I really

hate. So this is, I'm going to, I'm going to start by saying this as a bug bear, because one thing I really hate is when people, in terms of language, when people use places as speakable things. So the White House has said, well, the White House hasn't said anything. It's a big white building. But you can say the president has, President Biden has said, and, or, you know, back to my world, you know, Downing Street says, well, Downing Street hasn't said anything. The point minister has said it. But you don't want to attribute it to the Prime Minister, maybe, because then that sounds too political or something else. So it has to come from the institution that is Downing Street. But going back to that, like one thing that we have done for so long, I think we're

getting better at it, but we've done for so long, is this idea of corporate language. and speaking in a corporate way. And what really fascinates me about that is that so much of corporate language, nobody uses as human beings. It's like they are trying to speak as a building, as an entity. And I don't know quite why that is. Why can't they speak as human beings? Actually, why shouldn't we all be speaking as human beings?

After all, that is what we are. buildings and entities and organizations can't speak. They can't have a voice for themselves. So this kind of language of, you know, we are totally, we are told, let me think of a different ways. So it's, you know, I apologize for the inconvenience. Let's take that as an example. Okay. Nobody speaks like that.

I promise you this, that nobody will ever speak to like that. You know, we're chatting now. If I, if I could have knocked something over and the computer fell down and I lost camera and I lost sound, I wouldn't come back on two minutes later and go, I apologize for the inconvenience that this has caused. I'll say, sorry about that. I knocked something over. So why do corporations insist on having this kind of language? Why do we insist on talking about, you know, I hope this email finds you well? Well, the email isn't going to find me anything.

You can talk to me like a human being. Let's start there. And I find that really interesting. And again, like going back to the thought leadership, go and talk about how we use language, being better at language, being better at communicating is actually about making connections. And you can only do that when you actually speak on a human to human level.

And, you know, I think of it the same. You know, I used to say it now it's becoming a bit old fat, old hat because people are kind of maybe overusing it too much and so people just got bored of it. But I used to say, or I used to hear and I used to kind of repeat that there is no such thing as B2C and B2B. It's about it's about human to human because whenever we are talking to someone, whether we're talking to a business decision maker or whether we're talking to an individual who's going to buy something in the high street, we are talking to human beings.

So this kind of like and then it got overused and people started. Hey, oh, stops talking about human to human, human to human. But actually like, you know, it is, we should say still keep saying it because so often we don't speak like human beings. We speak like organizations. We speak like consumers. We have to sort of say, well, yeah, but what's business? Like how do we, how do we market B2B? How do we market B2B?

And how does that compare to B2C? Well, just market like you're speaking like a human being to human beings and maybe let's start there. Like, you know, rather than over-complicating things, you know, it must take more work to think about how is a better way of saying, I'm sorry. I don't know. Maybe we could just say, I'm sorry. You know, it's about having brevity and clarity and shortening things as well. Like, you know, there's lots of kind of intertwined skills that we can bring into that about how we can, we can kind of be more concise and clarity and brevity. but that's what it comes down to. It's about how communication should be about human to human because there is no other, well, I guess now we've got AI,

so that complicates even more things. But in theory, there is no such thing as non-human to human communication. On some level, I think it's not a bug, it's a feature. You know, when you look at large multinational corporations, it's much easier to give an employee a number. and you know this this is employee 107 24 and they're not being very productive you know they have this this jargon that they use in in large multinationalsals but i think that that it's much easier to replace uh employee 175 than it is george who just lost his kid you know on some level i think

that that particular language serves a purpose and it's it's it's willful like that language is inserted to talk like a building the white you can't you can't get mad at the white house, but you get mad at Joe Biden. You know, in some ways, it seems like legalese has penetrated the humanity and found a way to exclude themselves from being responsible. You know, in some ways, maybe languages is a way to get out of responsibility. And that's what that thing which seems like to me. I think you, I think you're absolutely right.

It is that. But the problem with that is that when you get out of responsibility, you also lack empathy. You lack human connections. But, you know, so I think that's a thing. You know, when you think, you can have given the presidential example and taking policies out of it, because otherwise I'll get shout to that when this goes on it. I know we're live as well, but when this goes out, you know, I'll get shouted out for starting to bring presidential politics into it. And I'm British and I certainly don't have, I can't have too much of a view on that.

But as you absolutely said, like when you communicate as the White House has said and White House policies and the executive branch has said this, you distance yourself. But by doing that, you lose empathy and you lose connection. And so people feel more disconnected with their president. And we hear that kind of language, you know, I'm your president. I'm working for you. Yet they still insist on this kind of corporate, the White House has said, the executive branch has released a statement saying, da-da-da-da-da-da. Now compare that, again, very face value, because I'm looking at it from outside of the US.

but at very face value compare that with the communication of Obama where he's perched on the corner of his overall office desk where he's doing chat shows where he's doing comedy pieces when he's doing sketch shows like we instantly feel a connection

because actually he's talking more human and I don't know whether there's any research in this but I would love to look at, and actually even when you look at Trump, like he did build connections through his communication. You know, you can't deny that. Actually, probably I would say more so than, you know, Biden is because we don't, now whether that's because, you know, it appears to me that Biden struggles to be able to even string a sentence together or whether it's, and so hiding behind a building helps.

But say what you like about Trump. Say what you like about Obama, depending on what camp you're on. You know, I don't care. That's not what this topic is about. Right. Because actually what both of them did was communicate like human beings and form connections. Now, you argue whether that's the right kind of connections. You can argue whether the messages that they say is right because they're speaking to the minority or the messages.

But they made connections. Like, you know, and they did that through storytelling. or they did that through communicating their message with greater brevity or clarity or whatever it is. Like they both did that in their own ways. You know, you could argue more so than President Biden is doing it doing now. I'm sure that there are lots more presidential communications experts who will say differently. But just on a face value, that's how I see it. And I think it's really interesting when you compare those communication styles because Biden is a lot more,

well, I'm the president. I'm the face of the executive branch, but communications will come from the executive branch. And, you know, I think that that's, I think that's super interesting, you know, how we, how we distance that. Yeah, I do too. What do you see? Like when you, when you're working with people, whether it's maybe you're working with a group of people or an individual, what is a long-term goal to try to get them to do? Is it, is it to communicate more on an, empathetic level? Is it to tell themselves a better story so that they can then tell a better story to the group they're with? Or what is it that when you work with people that you're trying to shine a light on? I think it's about communicating their authentic self.

And I think that it's being, you know, I'm a big fan or a big believer in people being authentic. I would like to say more authentic, but actually being authentic, actually in the very level of things. So a lot of, you know, I think there's two sides to do it. It very much depends on the individual because they all struggle with different things. But I think that ultimately what is about being authentic. It's about, it is about doing that through storytelling because I think that we, it is easier or it's strongest if we can make connections via the stories that we tell and by the experiences that we've lived. But it's also just being a, about understanding who you are and communicating that.

And sometimes it is soul searching. Sometimes it is a little bit about knowing yourself better than than maybe you even realize that you know yourself. And so many times, you know, when I sit down with people for the first time, and you know, you started off by sort of saying, oh, I think we're going to, we're going to do this in a very conversational way. And it's really interesting that you said that because that's exactly how I work with clients. Like people think that I'm going to go, right, what's day one?

of training. I was like, well, there was no day one, day two, day three of training really, because that's not the process that I go through. You know, I, my process is maybe a lot more like a, like a therapist would approach a client, right? You know, I like the power of organic conversation. And, and actually, because then that goes back to what I believe in, which is about being human to human and about communication being human to human. So it's, you know, I do, you know, I come from a journalist and I come from broadcast journalism. So, so I used to, you know, I'm used to sitting down with celebrities or politicians or whoever it may be and interviewing them. And my style was always conversational.

My style was always about, I just want to get to know you a little bit better. How am I going to go about to do that? Because then if I can get to know them a little bit better, then I can encourage them about how they communicate those messages. And, you know, I have clients that say to me, sort of say, like, I've got so much to say, but I don't know how to say it. I was like, okay, cool. Say it to me in organic conversation then. let's get that out of you through organic conversation and you'll find that you do actually know how to say it the same way that people come to me and say I'm terrible at telling stories I was like

I don't think that's true yeah like I bet you when you were in the pub with your mates the other night on Friday night you told a fantastic story I bet you did and so some of the questions that you know I might start by sort of telling me a little bit about your career telling me about where you started tell me about this tell me about that you know more often than not I start about about just kind of loosening up, just kind of like, tell me about your morning. How was your commute to, we don't commute anymore, do we all just work from home? But how was your commute? How was your walk upstairs this morning?

How was, you know, what did you have for breakfast? What was the school run like, you know, for me? Like, you know, what's the weather doing? Getting them to tell those kind of maybe small stories first is a way of getting them to tell stories that maybe they might lead to kind of more grandeur messaging. because, you know, we all learn something from the experiences that we have. And it's actually really just about, about retelling those stories. And actually the retelling of those stories is not so much about retelling the stories.

It's about reliving them. And how do we, once we relive them, we can retell them. And, you know, those are the most powerful stories. When you think when you are with your friends or your family and they tell, you know, a really powerful story, the reason why. why it is so powerful to you, why you make those connections is because they're reliving it. Like they're laughing with you. They're remembering things as they go because they are literally reliving the event in their in their minds. And that's when the story is so powerful.

When you, they're not just telling the story, they're reliving it. And that's also how we need to kind of see it. And often that comes out through my method of, you know, organic conversation. Let's just sit down. Let's just get to know you. Let's just chit-chat. Let's find out more. Like, you know, you and I could be having this conversation in a completely different way. It's, you know, where, and I have done interviews and podcasts where it's, you know, question one, question two, question three, question four. Thank you very much. Have you got anything else you like to say? And, you know, and when you do that, I kind of sometimes, and I'll do that too. And I, but I sometimes come away at the end of that thinking, what have you really learned about me? Like, have you really kind of got a sense about who I am? Have I really? Have I really. got a sense of who you are. Have I really communicated everything that you think that the listeners want to be hearing? And maybe they do or they don't pick up on that. And maybe sometimes you'll never really know. But that organic conversation is when stories and experiences and etc. are communicated. And when you really get a true sense of someone's self and whether you like them or dislike them, there's no right or wrong with that. But you get that through organic conversation.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And that's, that's, some of the best stories that I've learned from or that I've enthralled by or on the edge of my seat have to do with fear and vulnerability and the way in which a person found themselves walking through those or working through those or conquered them or got conquered by them. And when you have to relive that, that's difficult to do. Even though those can be the best stories and usually are, it's very difficult to get to someone, to have someone relive that, especially if they're not. ready to relive that. It is kind of like therapy in a way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that is when things become, you know, maybe the most powerful. Now, talking about thought leaders a little bit, but also talking about about how maybe that happens in, you know, in a real life example. And one podcast that I'm actually kind of a huge fan of, I was going to say kind of a huge fan of,

kind of a huge fan of is the diary of a CEO. And I mentioned it earlier as we were chatting. The reason is because whatever you think of Stephen Bartlett, I may have my views. I've never met the man, but I may have my views about him in the context of this thought leadership thing that I've already talked about. I maybe have a few issues about that.

But credit where credits due, he is, I don't know what it is, but he is very good at getting people to open up. He is very good at people. getting people to tell stories where you really feel connected. You really see maybe a different side to somebody. And those are the true stories.

Now, I feel like, you know, those have been the most powerful stories that I've listened to on that podcast. The ones that I feel like at least powerful are the, you know, thought leader scientists or the thought leader doctors that come on, spout whatever they want to spout. And it sounds breakthrough and it's amazing and it's an interesting, supposedly it's an innovative thought because they're saying something different. about ADHD or something different about diet or something different about what we should be

eating or drinking and we should be quitting coffee and blah blah blah blah blah I hate those less I don't I hate those more you know I don't those are the ones I don't listen to but when you get the real honest open up type stories when you as you say when you hear those struggles when you hear those lived experiences and you know some of the most powerful ones I heard of that series was even Fry, Richard Hammond. People who have been, now I'm not saying all of the other people that he's had on have also gone through stuff,

but those are just two examples, and there are others, where people have communicated really heart-hitting stuff, and you really felt that emotional connection with them by them opening up, by them telling stories and being honest, and yeah, showing that vulnerability. There's a big part of that. But people are scared to do that.

Like again, it goes back to the, you know, the White House has said, Downing Street has said, you know, maybe there is a nervousness about opening up. There's a nervousness of about showing, sometimes that's nervousness about showing emotion. Like, you know, particularly with leaders, we feel like leaders shouldn't show emotion. Leaders shouldn't be showing any kind of vulnerability when they're in that powerful position, particularly world leaders. You know, it's very, you know, we shouldn't, they shouldn't be doing this. shouldn't be doing this. You know, we see the reputational

crisis pop up when that, when they do something that they think is unprecedented or not like a prime minister should be behaving. Like, you know, we saw that, for example, with the Finnish prime minister, you know, a video was released about her partying. God forbid, a young person has been

seen partying. She's no longer allowed to do that because she's, because she's a prime minister. I find that, even though it was, I don't know, like, I find that really interesting. like, you know, the, you know, the environment that we put on people, like, you know, where we, we can, we impose how someone should behave based on the position that they have. Whereas actually, maybe we would just open up a little bit more if we saw them more as, as human beings and they communicated as such. And that includes vulnerability. And that's, you know, sometimes when those connections are made most powerfully is when we do have to.

that vulnerability and and, and, uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, and make a connection to that. Yeah. Yeah. It's well said it. Sometimes the story is through, like, hearing, you know, an example is when, when trauma strikes you. I'll give you an example. When I was in a few years ago, like seven years ago, my wife and I, we were, we were given to have our first child. And they, Everybody that knows, like your first child, like you packed the bags, you're getting ready, do the Lamas class. You know what I mean? And you're like, okay, what do I do? I got to count to 10.

One, two, three, four. And, you know, it's all these things are going on. And you're preparing for what's happening. And, you know, I'll never forget. We're waiting for her water to break. And it was like month nine. And we have the car stuff packed. And my wife's like, hey, George, we got to go to the hospital.

And I'm like, okay. I'm like, are you sure? Because I didn't see her water break. She's like, we got to go to the hospital. I'm like, okay. But there's like this weird aura of. of like wrongness. You know, sometimes when something's wrong,

it's palpable and you can feel it. You know, and it's just like you can, you know there's a problem. And we rush to the hospital and we go into the emergency room and, you know, there was a, we walk up to the counter and my wife's nine months pregnant and we go have the, you know, we need to get into the hospital.

We think there's an issue right here. And the nurse looks at us, she goes, okay, fill out this paperwork and we'll get you right up. So we sit down and we fill out the paperwork and, you know, there was a bunch of people in the waiting room, one guy gets up and he's like,

I was here before them and, you know, my arm is really killing me. And I don't know why you gave them paperwork first. You know, I'll never forget that part of it for some reason. I'm like, and the lady's like, she's pregnant. You know, she didn't call them a dummy, but she's like, that lady is nine months pregnant, sir. Please sit down. I was like, yeah, thinking of myself, like, good for her. You know, and so they rush us up to the room and we have our own room and our doctor's not there because she's on call.

But there's obviously doctors in the delivery room. and they come in and they shut the curtain. And at this point in time, like, I can look at my wife and I know there's a problem. But it's dead silence in the room. And the guy comes up and he hooks up the ultrasound. And, like, for me, this moment was one of those moments. I'm sure people listen to this in yourself have had these moments where time stands still. It's just, you know, there's no heartbeat.

There's nothing. And it's just like, the ultrasound's up. And I look at my wife. I look at the doctor. I look at the ultrasound. Look at my wife. I look at the doctor. I look at the ultrasound.

And it feels like an hour's gone by, but it's just me shifting my focus between these three different, my wife, whom I love and this doctor I don't know in this machine. And the doctor turns to me and he's like, I'm sorry. Your child has passed away.

And like, you know, like, it's one of these ones you're like, what the fuck are you talking about? What are you talking about this? What? And it's, it's through tragedies like that. Like, it's, it's those tragedies. It's these ideas of the horrible things that shouldn't happen to anybody.

And it takes a while to integrate these things. But when something like that happens to you, you know, it's imperative that when you figure out how to integrate it, that you tell that story. In some way, I think you're given a gift. You as someone who went through a tragedy, you are now given the same. sight to see other people help them through it, to hold their hand through it, to see it before it may happen, to see it after it happened, to see while it happened. And it's those stories that happen to all of us. And every one of us has a story. Some of us may not be brave enough to tell it yet. Some of us may not have had the story happen to us yet. But I rest assured,

anyone listening to this, your story's coming. And it's, it's both magic and tragic. But I hope that when your story happens, you're able to capture the magic in it and tell it to people because that is what we're here to do as humans. We're here to tell our story so that other people can find where they are on the path. It's those stories that everybody has. And maybe that's what everybody gets to be a thought leader for a moment in time. Maybe everyone gets to have their 15 minutes of fame. I don't think that's a great way to put it, but everyone gets to be center stage in front of the fire to tell their story to the rest of us. And I think that that is a way we need to communicate. Like, on some ways, I wish we could go back to almost a communal level where everyone could

maybe we could all, every Friday, everybody goes down to the wherever it is, their campfire, their VFW or whatever, but they have that opportunity to do it. You know, and sometimes it's at the workplace, sometimes it's at a family gathering, but I think that the idea of storytelling should be taught in schools or should be, I think more people should be listening to what you're doing, because I think in some ways you're helping people tell their stories. That was just an example. I think it's important, right? Everybody's got a story. Yeah, and thanks for sharing that, because I think you're right. I think that everybody has a story. And you say some, not everybody, thank God, have lived through tragic events like that that they are able, able to tell,

let alone be willing to. I think that the, that opening up side of things, whether it's, whether it's a tragic side, whether it's a funny story. Whether it's something that's gone wrong, whether it's something that's tragic. I think that there is there is something a little bit about, you know, I don't want to open up about that. You know, that's personal to me. Yes.

You know, that's my life. Like, why should I open up about that? I think that there is, I don't know. Like, you know, I'm not in any places to sort of say, you know, everybody should be saying about everybody about their lives. But I am generally, I am typically a very, a very open, person and, and, you know, very, very open and very kind of transparent, generally quite

transparent about my life now. But I, but, but, you know, to be obviously, I haven't, I haven't always. Like, you know, there's also, you know, in this world of social media as well, but, you know, we live up to some kind of aspiration or we believe that we should be created, you know, that's the another thing is the fact that, you know, maybe people don't like that because actually they want to be perceived as their life being perfect. And that's why they don't, they don't tell those kind of stories. The same way that we put filters on Instagram or we, or we stage the perfect family breakfast when actually there's complete chaos going

going on behind us. And, you know, I think that there's really an interesting of kind of vulnerability just actually in opening up and being, being honest and being able to sort of be transparent. Now, you're right. Not everybody is maybe able to do that. but and and there are certainly some stories that the the the people don't necessarily need to go to it. I'm not sort of saying right everybody needs to have a tragic story. Everybody needs to have something that's going to make people you and make the listener cry or or to do that or the other.

And but you know, so maybe your storytelling is something else. Maybe it maybe it is amusing. Or maybe it's showing vulnerability in a in a different kind of way. Maybe it's sort of saying, oh, like, you know, this was a time where I fucked up. Yes. And this is, and this is how I fucked up. And, you know, I think I've not had a chance to be to one yet, but I know that like, you know, in both in America and here in Europe, there are things called fuck up nights. Have you heard of these?

No, I haven't. I haven't heard of them. So these are corporate nights. And, and I'm no way am I being paid for, by the way. I'm not being endorsed by fuck up nights. Exit. But I think that they're a fantastic concept. And the idea is that they are corporate networking events,

but people get to go on stage. And instead of doing an inspirational keynote, how I made $2 million in two minutes type stuff that actually you see on LinkedIn all of the time, instead they're kind of like, let me tell you about a time that I completely fucked up. And people are kind of share and they revel in those stories. And I just,

I think that's a fantastic concept, because it really is opening up that idea of vulnerability. You know, it doesn't need to be something as tragic as the story that you told us or an individual's tragic story that they're retelling. But it is a way of people being more vulnerable in their failures and opening up to that. And I think that that can be hugely powerful.

And I think that that's also, there's a lot of, there's a lot of finding yourself in being able to do that, in being able to open up and sort of say, yeah, you know, there were times when I really hurt people. There were times when I made mistakes. There were times when I did things that was, you know, showed a lack of empathy towards, towards another individual. There are times where I really shouldn't have treated someone like that. And, and, you know, maybe I'll never build that relationship back, but I'm sure as hell going to try. But, you know, so maybe it's those kind of vulnerable stories that are, that are as important, you know, even if, if, if, if,

If you don't and God bless you don't have have those like really tragic moments that you that you're going to tell. But at the same time, I also think that there's a, then the next part I guess is why are you telling that story. Like, you know, what's the, what's your, what's your message behind it? You know, one, I got asked the other day on a different podcast. I got asked about like, you know, name a communicator that you just think has got it down. nailed it, like just, has just got it down to a tea that you completely admire. And I went, I went, I went fucking way back. And I went to Esol. That is way back. And it is way, it's way, it's way bad. I never knew. I never, I never, I never knew the guy, but he was a great

communicator because, you know, everything that I believe about communication, it being succinct, is it following a story pattern, you feeling for the characters, and then at the end of the day, they're having a clear message behind that story. But actually, when you want, if you wanted to go and study storytelling and about how stories are constructed

that then tell a message, go and listen to the backlog of Elv Sop's fables. Because they do all of those things in such a way that is so unique, you know, that I feel like actually no one has done since, really, that, you know, to me, he's, he's, he's, he's probably one of the world's greatest communicators because of that. And because of the way that he tells stories and then, and then tells us a message. Now, back of the time, it was, it was foxes and hairs and tortoises and whatever else that he was using to illustrate his points.

But actually, if you take those, those formulas, if you take those formats and, and apply, those to our own personal stories. You know, apply that to our own lived experiences. Then you can come away with something truly powerful. You know, and then you can kind of come away and kind of like, this is the story.

And what I learned from that is. And, you know, how I now do things differently is because and or, you know, I will never do this or I'll never do that. I'll never disbelieve someone or whatever. Like, you know, whatever it may be. So I think, I've lost more train of thought as to kind of why I was going to making that reference. But it is about understanding what you're trying to say with that story.

I think the risk is that when we sort of say people should be opening up more, people should be more personal, is that people tell a tragic story and then like, I don't really know what to do with that information. Like I don't really know how to come away with that. So it's also then about communicating of like, you know, I live through this. But I came out okay at the other end and you will to.

You know, whatever you are going through, the sun will still rise tomorrow. You know, that kind of, really that kind of message, that take-home message, that it's going to be okay, that life is going to be okay. And I think that that's a really powerful message actually for sometimes all to hear, whatever that may be. Yeah. Is that your philosophy? Like, do you look at your life as a story? Like when you begin telling things, like, is that your framework for your life? Like, this is the Alex story. You know, do you, do you, when you begin telling about your life, do you look at your life as like, I'm the main character in this incredible novel? And I'm, I'm not sure what chapter I'm on or I'm on this chapter. Do you look at your life as a story? I do sometimes. I have to a minute, like I, you know, know, I hear and I read a lot about, you know, people talk about, like, you know, what are the stories you should have? You know, you should have the hero story or you should follow this

framework or you should follow this, that, and the other. And then, of course, one of them is that they sort of say, you know, you should also have your founder's story. You should also have your, your origin story. And I've thought about that a few times. You know, I do, I, in a way, I have plenty of origin stories or founder stories. And I do sometimes think about that when people sort to say, like, tell me your founder story. Tell me your origin story. It's like, how far back do you want to go. Like, you know, I don't remember, like, the day that I was born. Like, I can't really, I'm not sure if I can really recall that. So it's really interesting that you talk about that kind of like, well, what is a founder story versus an origin story or anything else? But I think

that that that's actually really, it is really powerful when you start thinking about your life as a story. Yeah. And, and how you would put that down and how you would think about that. Like, you know, I think that, you know, maybe we should all be thinking about at some point in our lives when, when, maybe when the time is right or whatever, but like at some point in a lot, we should all be thinking about, you know, penning our memoirs so that we actually get a chance to be able to tell our life story. And, and sometimes it is those stories, those micro stories come out when we actually think way back, well, what happened then? Like, what happened now? And I've been going back a little bit as well more recently. I've been looking into my family history,

finding that fascinating on the different sides of the family. And as a result, you know, it's going through kind of old documents. It's going through old photos of me. And then I start thinking about like, wow, how did that, how did that shape where I am now? Like, how did I get from that to, and the stuff that I've completely forgotten about. One example of this is that the other day I was back in my family home and I was kind of collecting together or like, oh, this was kept and this was kept and this was kept. And I remembered, and this is something that, for some reason I remember, and I remembered that I, I, I won a poetry competition when I was, I believe I was like nine or ten years old.

And then I start kind of thinking about, well, how did, how did that impact where I am now? And here I am kind of thinking about how I tell stories, how I can write better, how I can communicate better. And yet even at 9 or 10, subconsciously, I was thinking a little bit about how can I tell a story differently and how can I get my story out differently. And what I will say is that the subject that the title of that poem was called The Bulley. And it was all about and it was about bullying. And I was bullied as a child. Like, you know, I had a kind of a pretty horrific childhood being bullied at school.

And my avenue then was not to, you know, I could have done, I guess TEDx probably wasn't invented then, but I could have stood on a stage and saying, let me tell you about the last year that I, where I've been bullied. But that wouldn't, maybe that wouldn't have been right. People wouldn't have gone, yeah, well, of course you've been bullied. You know, everyone's, you know, plenty of people have been bullied who are nine and ten years old in secondary school. Like that's, that's not, that's not unusual. But my avenue then was, was through poetry. And then since then I've gone, gone back and looked at other poems I've written and kind of like, what was I thinking? Like, who did I write that for? Or what was I, what was going through my mind when I'm, when I'm, when I'm thinking about those things. So I think that that's really interesting. When we start looking back at our, even our little anecdotes in our lives and how that has shaped who we are today. And I do now think back to that and go like, you know, maybe, maybe in one way or another, like even back at nine or ten, you know, something subconsciously, the power of the universe was saying, you know, you are going to be a communicator. You are going to work in communications.

And at the moment that this is, this is through poetry, you know, later on in life, you know, I did a lot of performing arts. So then that was my avenue of communication. And now it's about corporate communication and public speaking and everything else. So it's, it's kind of, it's followed a natural train of, you know, there's been lots of kind of craziness in between all of that, but ultimately this has been the red thread, if you will, that's followed it ever since I was nine years old

has been, I've always been about communication and I've always been about finding an avenue for that communication. I've always wanted to communicate to the world whether that's through poetry or whether that's coming on the True Life podcast. I've always been about communicating to people and communicating to as many people as possible

and now it's about helping people communicate better. And I think that that's, that's something, the more you think about it, the more I realize how powerful that is. Yeah, I love that. It seems to me that when we get to a point in our life, where we go back and we start looking at our story, that's when we know we've taken control of the story. Now all of a sudden, we can see that that red thread or that Ariotony thread that has ran all the way through. But at the time, we were like, well, I guess I just did a poem, you know,

but now you look back and you're like, of course that happened. How couldn't that have happened? And as soon as you can get that perspective, and this is why I love the idea of telling your your life as a story, is that it gives you the freedom to confront the things that happen to you from a third person perspective, from like the narrator's perspective or the author's perspective. You know, and you're like, oh, yeah, of course I did that. Well, if I did that and now you can move the story forward, I think, well, if I did that, then, of course I see the pattern in my story now, you know, and like, of course that was a threshold guardian.

I know what? I'm on the third threshold guardian now. you know, and I'm getting ready for the big fight coming. I start training. I start working out a little more, you know. And then that is maybe also when you, when you start thinking again about those vulnerabilities, about those weak spots,

because then you start thinking about, you know, because you might communicate it in one way. And generally, you know, we all, there's something that's psychologically about how we look at the positives in life, right? We look at, we look at all the great things that happen, and we sometimes forget the bad things. And that's, that's psychological. You can't often do anything about that.

Like we forget the negatives. And I think sometimes when you do look back, because you then look back at your life and go, oh, I did poetry and then I did performing arts and then I moved to China and did some broadcasting. And then I came back and did corporate communications, including at Downing Street. And now I'm, then I moved to Denmark and now I'm teaching other people to how to communicate better. You're going to go like, cool.

Well, you pretty much had your life like sewn up in one neat little journey, didn't you? I was going to go, well, no, because like, between all of that, like, it was like there were times that was really fucking difficult. There were times where, you know, I was struggling to make a living. Or there was times when I was doing X, Y, and Z. There were times when I got myself into huge amounts of debt and had to try and crawl myself out of it and beg for forgiveness from the people that I hurt through that. So that, so, you know, on paper, do to start writing poems. Now he's teaching communication. Cool.

Happy days. But it's only when you start to question. like, but my God, has it been difficult getting here? And it's probably going to be still difficult in the years to come. Do you realize how, okay, I now need to put those elements into my story too. I now need to sort of say, I need to open up more. And it's when you open up more, do you kind of realize, like, okay, now that makes sense. Now I trust that person a little bit more.

Now I believe him a little bit more because he's being open and honest about these struggles that that person has had about the challenges that he's overcome to get to where he is today. And again, it is about empathy. It's about building connections. And I do think that we need those vulnerable moments to be communicated, however small or major they may be, in order for people to kind of feel some kind of empathy towards us. Now, the risk is that people will hate that story. Like, you know, how could he, how could he, how could he, how could he have got himself

into so much trouble? How could, how could he have done that? I don't trust him now because he did X, Y, and Z. Why would I listen to what he says about this when, when he did this, this? That's a risk. And, but, and maybe people are scared of that risk. But I don't, I don't have to be for everybody. You know, and going back to thought leadership, you can, you can lead one person in thought,

and that's okay. and it's also okay therefore that you don't have to be liked by everybody you're not going to be like for everybody you know you know no one's not everybody's going to like you and the the real trick is being okay with that and and everybody will say well no of course not everybody's going to like it but are you really okay with that and are you okay with maybe only two or three people like you maybe or maybe only two or three people get what you're doing but if you can truly truly deliver something of value and make meaningful connections with those half a dozen people, then maybe that's good enough.

And so there's a big part of that overcoming fears, overcoming fears of not everybody liking you, overcoming fears of being, showing your vulnerable side and people finding you, and sometimes you'll tell you a real story and people, say, you know, that, I'm sure that never really happened. I'm sure that's just a story to tell. Like, they won't believe you. And that's okay too. Like, you have to say, well, that's on you. I don't have to have you believing me. I just, I'm, I'm, I'm just opening up. I'm just telling you

my story and, and, and hoping that that finds meaning for, for somebody somewhere out there. Yeah, I love it. Sometimes I wonder, you know, stories have been with us since the beginning, you know, whether you read the Iliad and the Odyssey and, you know, And sometimes I wonder, I'm curious to get your opinion. I had a friend tell me the other day that he thinks we're outgrowing the hero's journey. And it got me thinking about like, wow, is it possible that we could be in a period of time where a new mythology is taking place? And might a new mythology change our ability to see the story in someone else? Like if you look at this giant demographic, you know, demographics that we have, like,

There's this giant demographic of baby boomers throughout the world. And it seems that a lot of them are knocking on the door to the mortality experience. And there's this new generations coming up. And sometimes maybe there's a lot of things lost in translation. Can you think of a time in the past and is this even possible where the stories, the foundation and the path of the story is becoming unrecognizable to another generation? I think, I do, in a way, I do. do wish that we are getting tired of the hero's journey or the hero's story. Okay.

Because, simply because it goes against what we've just talked about, about that vulnerability. Like, you know, it suggests, you know, it suggests that there is a, that there is a, a hero to be had in all of us. Or it suggests that, you know, the hero's journey kind of has it, has it all, like, pretty much wrapped up. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to say, like, when we talk about hero, right, I'm going to take superhero, use the superhero analogy. Like, I find it, you know, people sort of say, oh, like, you know, you really feel for the

characters and they're going to, take Spider-Man, for example. At no point do I feel particularly sad for Spider-Man. I think he's kind of got it, I think he's got life all right, down. Like, you know, like, he gets to save the world. He ultimately gets the girl. Like, and people got, yeah, but, you know, he started, he started to struggle and he was bullied and and he overcame. No,

he only overcame that because he got bit by a spider and got superpowers. Like, he didn't really go through any struggles

to get there. And, and that's, maybe that's what I, you know, you talk about the hero's journey that when he, when you,

it's difficult to say hero and not think superhero. Yeah. So you're going to go back down, down that kind of avenue, I guess, in a little bit. And I think the problem is

with the hero's journey is that it doesn't, it focuses on that word hero. And I know people say, oh, like, you know, another word for the hero's journey is the founder's journey or the founder's story. And so maybe that's different. But it doesn't, it still doesn't focus enough on, on the trials and tribulations. It doesn't focus enough of the fact that there, that there must be ups and downs.

It doesn't focus enough on the true, I guess, stories that need, that are needed to get there. like the the ebb and flow if you will of the story to get there it doesn't focus enough on failures it doesn't focus enough about the challenges that they overcame and that's i think that's the problem that i have on it not not so much the actual framework or the formula but more that the way that it's titled that it suggests about how did that person become a hero and actually maybe it's okay to focus on something else. Maybe it's about the failure's story.

Like, you know, not everything has a happy ending and life doesn't necessarily have a happy ending. In fact, it doesn't, actually. We all end up dying. So there's something to say about, like maybe it's okay to say, you know,

this story does not have a happy ending. But I'm still going to tell it. because it is something that's powerful and we can all learn something from it and we can all feel something about it. And that's okay. So, like, you know, maybe, maybe we need to not necessarily replace, but we also need to think a lot about, like, you know, the failures journey or, you know, something that didn't necessarily have a happy ending.

The hero's journey suggests that there's a happy ending at the end. And I get it. Like, maybe we all like happy endings. Like maybe we, maybe that's the thing. Like psychologically, we really want something to have a happy ending. But I also think that the story is even more powerful sometimes when it doesn't,

because life doesn't. Yeah. As we're talking, it makes me think that maybe it's something in our genetic code for life to move on. That's why we celebrate that framework of like life must continue on in some way. And we have kids. And maybe it's retooling our relationship with. adversity that can change the story to a more meaningful one where where and then I started thinking like

wow George what do you just want to tell sad stories to everybody no one's want to listen to my stories if I tell only sad stories you know or but there's got to be more meaning in there than and it does come down to meaning it's like you can tell us out of story as long as you take something away from it as long as that there is yeah is you know and sometimes that meaning might be you know what I got to know that person a little bit better because of of because of his vulnerability, because I heard about that particular time of vulnerability. Or maybe it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's so, you know, the meaning is because, you know, everybody thinks that I've got this all, all, all, all locked up and, and got my

life made. And, and actually it's, you know, life has still been a struggle like it has been for so many people. And, and, and that's okay to tell the story. So I think there's still got to be meaning, that's kind of like what I said, really, there's still got to be some kind of meaning out of it rather than just a well that's a really sad story but what's what's what's the takeaway like what's what's the what's the part of it and sometimes it might be like but things are going to be okay in the end and and this and this is why I'm telling the story is that you know the universe didn't have it all kind of figured out for you then but but it it did or it will or you know so whether it's a hope thing or whether it's a you know some kind of message in

in that towards the end. And you're right. Like it isn't just about it isn't just about always telling sad stories. You want, you do want that ebb and flow, right? You want,

you want to go from a, like, I'm going to tell you a really sad story now to, I'm now going to make you laugh. Or I'm going to, I'm going to break the, break the tension, so to speak. I'm going to,

I'm going to make you go through this emotional journey. And actually that is what great stories do. You look at any, any movie, great movie that you saw and you think about the story as that, like that went through that ebb and flow most likely. It went through kind of like you feel sorry for a character and then their life gets better and you feel better for them.

And then maybe something goes wholly wrong again, but all the end it, I mean, most movies end up with a happy ending. But, you know, and so that it ends there. And so you kind of go through that kind of like, I like this person, a dislike this person, I feel sorry for this person.

Now I feel like he has. coming to him and then and then like that's the journey that we all go emotionally we enjoy those emotional stories like we need though that that roller coaster we need that that emotional journey ourselves to because we realize maybe in maybe subconsciously we realize that that's what life is all about there's always going to be ups and downs and and so when we when we hear stories that have those ups and downs those ebbs and flows we relate to them more and so therefore we enjoy them more we we get more from them however they end up whether they end up with a happy ending or not we still take something from it yeah i love it i have this idea i'm working on i want to get your opinion about it

so i'm i think some of the people well let me start off like this i've been speaking with some people who are death doulas and they they'll sit with the people in palliative care as their last few days and and some of the talks that i've had with the death doulas are are mesmerizing in ways and You know, anybody who's ever read a biography about someone they admired or an autobiography, but someone that they admired and they talk about their last days, you know, it's never, I wish I would have spent more time in the office. I wish I would have made more money. It's always, I wish I would have been a better husband.

I wish I would have been a better person. I wish I were taking more vacations. I wish I would have to talk my wife. I loved her more. I wish I would hug my kid more. It's all of these things, you know. And it seems to me that people who have gotten to a certain part of our life, their life, can look back with a clarity that most people can't get until you get there.

And so one thing I'm working on my podcast is that I've been reaching out to some people who are in palliative care and I want them to come on and tell their story because they have the best stories. They have a clarity with which they can speak to that none of us can thoroughly understand. And I'm curious to get your opinion. Like, do you, how do you think that would be received? in my mind, I have this idea, like, it could be a sort of virtual campfire where everyone listening could get the opportunity to hear someone tell their story, maybe for the final time. I think there's a lot of gravity there, right?

Like, what do you think about that as an idea and as a way to build a bridge between generations? It is very interesting. I think that you're right. I think that there is something that's very interesting. I think that people would find very interesting about, the learnings or the clarity that somebody has when they're when they're in that stage of their life because I don't think that we ever really know and we also don't really think about like well what will we what we think when we when we when we get there like when we what will we think

when we when we hit that moment in time whenever that is hopefully later rather than sooner But whenever we hit that time, that's our time, like what will we think? How will we look back at our life? How will we look back at how we have treated it? And as you say, no one will say, I should have worked harder or I should have spent more time in the office or I should have done any of those things. Maybe sometimes those things are interlinked. You know, people might sort of say, you know, I wish I'd have been able to provide for my kids more. I wish I had been able to give them more experiences.

But in a way that you feel like that would be the wrong way of looking at it because that's not what they're thinking. They're not thinking, you know, I wish Dad had spent more money on me. You know, they're just thinking, I wish I would have had more time with it. Like, you know, or whatever it may be. So I think that there's something very powerful about that. And the same way that sometimes the most powerful stories that I've heard have been people who have been close to that and maybe come through.

it on the other end, like, you know, where what did they, what did they have in their minds? Like, what, what were they, what were they thinking when they went, when, when they went through that? And, um, and I think that more often than not, I think that, and I could be wrong. And maybe, and maybe when, when you, when you, when you, when you'll get those stories, I'll, you know, I'll be proved otherwise and I'm more than happy to be so. But I think most of those people won't regret much about what they've done. They might, they might say you kind of like,

you know, I wish I, I wish I'd done things. You know, how would I be living it again? I'll do things a little bit differently. But that's not quite the same as regret. Yeah.

And I think that when I look back at my life now, when I look back at my life story, there are certainly things that I would probably do differently. But then every time where I think about, I would do that differently. They're not about the choices that I made. Would I have stayed working in TV production in the UK or rather than pursuing some kind of journalistic radio career in Beijing?

Well, no, because I went to Beijing and I met my wife and I'm now living in Denmark with two wonderful children because I made the random decision to go to China. And so, no, I don't regret that decision. do throughout my life, I regret the ways that I treated people, the ways, you know, how I know that I have hurt people along the course of my life. Do I regret that? And if I was in the end today or tomorrow, do I wish that I hadn't hurt them? Of course I do. You know, of course I would do that differently. But at the same time, in terms of the actions and the decisions that I make in

terms of my life story as we did it like you know what did he go on to do in the stages of his life I don't regret any of those things so I think that more often we that will be the biggest thing that people will say on that on their last day is is what do you regret and it'll be how you treated other people and if we can all think about that if we can all think about that almost on a day to day basis not in the morbid or kind of like what if I die tomorrow no one's suggesting that you do that you should also live life. But if you just think a little bit about what would you regret, if this was your last day on earth, not even yours. Yeah. If this was, Earth was going to explode tomorrow. What would be what would be your biggest regret? And I bet most people would say it's how I treated other

people. Because I think that we can all treat people better sometimes. And sometimes that'll be on a major way. Sometimes that will be like, you know, I really hurt people. I really, you know, know, I really, you know, it's unfathomable, the hurt and, and sadness that I brought around people. But other people would be like, I should have treated that one person better. You know, I dismissed that person. Maybe it's a leader who's so, like, you know, I should have treated that person, that person that I fired in 2007, you know, I should have treated them a little bit better. I should have had a bit more empathy for them. And, and I think, I think that's, that's, probably the most likely is that people will regret how they treat other people.

And I think that if we can all think about that sometimes, that will also improve our life now. So rather than it just being on your deathbed, what would you do differently when you can't do anything about it? If we start thinking about those things now, then maybe we can turn our lives around. Or maybe we can treat people a little bit better. And if we can treat people a little bit better and communication, of course, has a big part to play in that as well. Yeah, yeah. But if we can, if we can communicate better maybe and we can start, and as a result,

we can start treating people a little bit better, then maybe the world can be a bit of a better place. And maybe that's very grandiose and very idealistic and never was going to happen. But even on a small part to play, going back to thought leaders, you don't have to be a thought leader to millions and millions of people. You can influence the lives or the skills or something of, one person and and you've led them because you made them think differently. And the same goes for maybe how we live our lives. If we can have more empathy, if we can help more people,

if we can think about how we treat other people more. And if we can just treat one person better than we would have done had we not thought about it, then we've succeeded. And if we all think about that, then that in theory is something hugely powerful. And as said, you know, communication has a part to play with that. And that's why I started today in our conversation saying just that, that when we improve our communication skills, we can improve so many areas of our lives. And that's, that's, and other people's lives. I mean, that's also the powerful thing that, you know, you communicate a message clearly, you communicate with empathy, you, you treat someone differently through more empathetic communication, then you also improve their lives too. You

improve how they think about you. You improve maybe it's a, it has that ripple effect. Yeah. You know, a big, big fan of that ripple effect of like, you know,

if you can help one person, then they'll help somebody else who helps somebody else and suddenly the world's perfect or something. Yeah. I think it speaks to your, the, which you brought up earlier too, about authenticity where when you start,

when you start telling yourself, a, when you begin to tell yourself a story that is more accurate, it, then you can begin to have relationships that are better, that are more full. When you begin to be honest with yourself, you begin having a more honest relationship. And that is that ripple effect out there. And maybe that is the way, you know, maybe it's what Gandhi said about if you want to change the world, then be the change that you want to see.

Because that is how, you know, you could affect, a conversation like this could affect a hundred people, a thousand people, or maybe 10 people. But the fact that it radiates outward and can touch a handful of people. people and then they can all touch a handful of people. Maybe that's how the world changes, you know, and it does seem through communication, through stories, and especially on the topic of death, because it seems so taboo in the West. Like, everyone's so afraid of this, of this idea. Like the word palliative, the root, the root pa, like pa-a means to shroud death. And palliative care means to shroud this thing. And why do we shroud something? Because we're afraid

of it. We want to talk about it. Because it's messy. We don't want to look at it. It speaks volumes of our relationship to it. So to uncover it and look at it. And then that can have the ability. It's interesting to think that someone who is facing death could give the gift of life to somebody else. Like, oh my gosh,

I should change my life now. Like, it's such a powerful thing to think about. What? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, about our relationship with death and how we communicate. Yeah. I think,

I think that we, you know, there's nothing to say that we that we couldn't or shouldn't. I think that it's trying to find the balance, right? It's trying to find the, again, it goes back to like the reason why you're communicating it. Like, you know, I don't, I don't think it should or needs to be in the kind of the morbid of like, you know, let's all think more about death. Because, because in a way, I feel like that's potentially a slippery path. It's also potentially, you know, I also think that it's, you know, it is a, you've also got to realize that there are, that there are people who will take that very literally.

and then there are people who will think back on their lives and think that they haven't done any good and that they haven't done negatively and then and then you know maybe they're not in the right frame of mind and and then they do something that that that they all regret you know and that's also another really interesting thing is that you know when you people who have been spoken to and they've done they've done interviews with people who who have tried to commit suicide and have failed and they all regret it like nearly nearly 100% of them regret trying to end their life when they're actually when they actually sit down and go like why did you try it or do you regret it or do you wish that you were to succeed it they all regret it so anyway but my point being is the fact that like the problem with is or we need to be careful getting to the point where we are in a in a situation of saying let's all think about if we were to die tomorrow you know what would we change because that could be a slippery slope for people who are maybe not in a frame of mind, you know, in the right mental state to be able to take on that challenge of thought. And so it is a, it is a dangerous path that you need to tread a little bit with,

with always going, you know, let's think more about death because it will make us more reflective but but I certainly think that we can think about our lives and thinking and with the with the understanding that that you know we there's it's never too late to change like it's never too late to to change the way that you approach someone it's never too late to say I'm sorry it's never too late to show remorse or regret about about maybe the way that you've treated people or or you'd wish you'd always said something to somebody or whatever it may be.

It's never too late to communicate. So even, as you say, in those situations where you're in palliative care and you know, you know that the end is, the end is genuinely nigh, even then it's not too late to just say, you know, I wish I'd apologize to someone. I wish I'd treat someone better. You know, if at all possible, like now, now, now's the time, right? There's no, there's no other time to do it. other time.

So it is a, it is, um, you know, I think that that then becomes more powerful. So rather than the, the sort of the death, the morbid death element of it, just more about, you know, there has never been a better time like now to make a change to, to change your behavior, to change the way that you do something in the hope that then that has that ripple effect. Like, yeah, let's go talk about that. Ultimately, it's all about. that ripple effect. I think that sometimes thought leadership can be like that as well.

You know, the idea, you know, true thought leadership is when, you know, you inspire one person, which then inspires another, which inspires another, which inspires another, which, and then you get that, that, that ripple effect, which I, which I think is, it's hugely powerful. And people maybe don't talk about enough, that ripple effect. People don't talk about that enough. They just talk about having a million followers and what that means. They don't necessarily really talk about how actually it can be incremental or maybe they don't necessarily become followers of the original person who had the original thoughts, but they are still having thoughts of their own, they're telling their story more authentically, they're talking about

their life more, they're communicating better, win-win, you know, maybe it's not directly with the architect, but the ripple effect is definitely there. And that's, you know, I think that when someone was asking me a little bit, how do you measure thought leadership? Is it just about followers, or is it just about a number of engagements or comments on a post that seemed to be interesting? But I don't think it is that.

I think you have to look at the ripple effect. And that's really, going back to where we started talking, was about what a thought leader is. It goes back to, it's not just about speaking to a million people or speaking to a few. It's about communicating something

that has that ripple effect, that can, ripple through to more and more people and that's when it's the most powerful. Yeah, it seems to me that a good communer, a good communicator is able to be contagious with their thoughts, you know, they can convey it. It's like the same way, like, it seems that there's two things that a, there's two parts that are contagious, and it's inspiration and desperation. And we see that from, from people that are speakers. Sometimes they're, the speech that changes the world comes from desperation,

sometimes it comes from inspiration. But what are those two horses pulling that cart in the world of communication? What do you think about those two horses? Yeah. Continues to go deeper, I guess. I mean, I think that they have a part to play. I don't know.

I think that ultimately it is about, again it goes back to the same thing it's about it's about being authentic right and I feel like you've frozen have you frozen I'm not sure if you can still hear me or not I feel like I feel like the broadcast is is completely frozen your picture has certainly frozen I'm hoping that it's not me the live counter is still counting so I'm hoping it's not me it's just your video that's stopped but um but in in case people are still tuning into the live I'll carry on talking um even though I seem to have your connection seems to have lost.

But I think, kind of like what, the interesting thing about communication is that it's, it is all about authenticity, right? And it is all about maintaining authenticity that, that also you're happy with. And, you know,

when we talk a little bit about that, that ripple effect and, you know, I think that that's, you know, that's super powerful. And, you know,

I remember last year, I don't know if anybody saw it, the Ryan Reynolds, Christmas musical, called Spirited, which as we approach Christmas now, I think maybe this is a good time to mention it again. And, and, you know, they talk about this ripple effect, right? They talk about how the fact that, you know, actually if they can make someone better, if they can improve someone's personality, if they can make them a better human being, very much Christmas carol-esque,

then it's not about changing that one person. It's about the ripple effect that that then causes. It's about if you change one person's lives, they'll become better to somebody else, which will become some better to somebody else to become somebody better so I recommend as we lead towards Christmas I recommend everybody to go and watch the Christmas movie spirited with Ryan Reynolds

and Will Ferrell and Ryan Reynolds and they're spirited because I think that that is it's a really it's a great movie anyway but it is true about

that ripple effect and you know the thing with the Christmas Carol, if you go back to the kind of the original version of that, is that the Christmas Carol was just doing, was really that's what it was about. I mean, actually, that original was about just changing Scrooge as a person. And they did that by looking back at his life

and making him realize that there are changes that he can be made in terms of ultimately about the way that he treated people. And when he changed his view, on that. People will look at that and then and then go, right, actually now I can change, I can change, I can change. And and, and, you know, again, if we go back to kind of thinking about what a powerful story is, actually the Christmas calendar is a hugely powerful story, but only if you see it in regards to having that, that ripple effect, having, having the idea of the fact that that something can, you can affect one person's life and then ultimately that will, that

move on and then we'll go on to somebody else. So I think that that's, that's, that's, that's hugely, hugely powerful. And, um, and I'm not sure if, uh, if George Monty is coming back, um, I'm going to, I'm going to hold on for just like a, like a little bit longer, um, to see if they're going to be coming back to this, this live broadcast, um, or, or not. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm still here. Um, there isn't even a, is there a, is there a, is there a, a chat that if people are, are, are tuned in, live, then maybe you can ping some questions into the chat and I actually can't see the chat.

But anyway, if anybody is tuning in live and they want to ask some questions, it will certainly help me out. Because I'm not sure if if George is going to be coming back to us. So if anybody is tuned in live or not, I have just had. message that that George Monti's power has gone out in his house, which is, which is why his video feed cut. So, so I'm not sure whether he'll be back momentarily. So I will stay on there. As I said, if anybody is still tuned in live, I know that, that, that some people are, may or may not be tuning in live. So if anybody's choosing, tuning in live and wants to fire some questions in the chat, the chat is, is, is, is live.

And I can see it. So if anybody wants to kind of literally throw some questions out, then I'm more than happy to help answer them. Well, we hope that maybe George comes back into the live stream. But I'll give it five minutes otherwise. And if not, then I will just have to disconnect. And maybe there will be a part two in some point in the future. otherwise.

But otherwise I will hold fire for a few minutes. All right, well, I have just had a message from George, who is struggling to get his connection back at the moment. I believe that his power has gone in his house. So we're going to cut the live stream now here, or at least I will leave the studio, which I assume will cut the live stream. But thanks. I'd like to extend my thanks, George, to having me. It's been a fantastic conversation. And I will, for those of you who may want to kind of hear the rest or the end of our conversation, then we'll see if we can organize a part two or even recommence the live broadcast when power has been resumed. But I also know that it's extremely late there in Hawaii. So maybe we'll do a part two, which I'll be more than happy to take care. But for anybody who,

who is tuning in live, then thanks for joining me and George in this conversation. It's been a pleasure to speak to you all about my views and my thoughts. And do look out for the YouTube link and for the Spotify replay if you've missed any of this. So thanks again, and apologies to that it's the end of the broadcast, maybe a little bit prematurely after George had to leave. Thanks again.