TrueLife - From Broken System to National Network: The Untold Story of Trevor Colhoun

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USOn Christmas Eve, George sits down with Trevor Colhoun, founder of TPN.Health, for a candid and powerful conversation about the broken behavioral health system in America—and how one company is quietly rebuilding it from the inside out.What started as a personal journey helping a family member navigate a fragmented and opaque mental health landscape has grown into a verified national network of nearly 100,000 providers across all 50 states. TPN.Health isn’t just another directory or referral platform—it’s a clinician-led operating system designed to dissolve administrative burdens, deliver free high-quality continuing education, enable human-led care navigation, and ensure providers are paid fairly and quickly.Trevor pulls no punches: he exposes the lack of transparency, the ghost networks sold by insurers, the distrust earned by years of broken promises, and why behavioral health has struggled to demonstrate clear value—to patients, providers, and payers alike.But this isn’t a complaint session. It’s a blueprint for real change.From paying providers their full cash rate with no cut taken, to tracking outcomes at scale, to building true clinical matches based on expertise, cultural competency, and care alliance—TPN.Health is creating the digital infrastructure the entire behavioral health ecosystem is starting to depend on.If you’re a clinician feeling burned out by bureaucracy, a patient frustrated by access, or anyone who believes mental health care should work as well as physical health care—this episode is a must-listen.Join the movement at tpn.health.https://tpn.health/#MentalHealth #BehavioralHealth #HealthcareReform #ClinicianLed #TPNHealth One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🔥 Save $2,000: Master Plant Medicines from Home (Ayahuasca, Psilocybin, San Pedro & Cannabis)Transform Your Mental Health & Consciousness with Blue Morpho’s Proven Courses:https://bluemorpho.org/plant-medicine-training/george/?ref=george🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/The Lila Code: https://orcid.org/0009-0008-4612-3942

George Martin, True Life podcast. The voice bane thing. That would have been. It would have been crazy. It's going to be amazing, though. Ladies and gentlemen, it's December 24th. I hope your day is absolutely beautiful. I hope you're hanging with your family.

Hope the birds are singing. Hope the sun is shining. Today, we're joined by Trevor Calhoun. Incredible individual who reached the edge of a broken behavioral health system and chose not to complain, but to rebuild it from the inside out. What began as a single-state effort in Louisiana has grown into a verified national network, nearly 100,000 providers across all 50 states. Not another platform layered on top of dysfunction, but an operating system designed to remove it, dissolving administrative drag, delivering free high-quality education, enabling human-led care,

navigation, and now moving directly into claims and reimbursement. This isn't disruption for its own sake. It's clinical led, it's patient-centered, and it's quietly dismantling the gatekeeping structures that have turned care into bureaucracy. Today, Trevor pulls back the curtain on what's actually breaking in mental health. Who's absorbing the hidden costs? And why tpn.health is becoming the connective tissue. The entire ecosystem is about to depend on. Trevor, thanks so much for being here today.

How are you? I'm awesome. Merry Christmas Eve to you. And thanks for having the opportunity to talk. yeah man i'm excited to have have you here you know a while back i i started looking through lincoln and started checking out your page and i'm like whoa look at what's going on here this changes everything and i thought maybe i could even though i gave you a bit of an introduction there i was hopeful that you could maybe reintroduce a little bit about how you got started like what the

what the major goal is and what you're up to this year incidentally did you write did was that where did you pull that introduction because that was really good thank you very much What I do is I look through different websites. I'll check your LinkedIn page. I'll check the T.P. Insight. Then I'll go to the Instagram. I'll look at all of them. And then I'll take all of the, all of the, you know, this and that.

And I'll put it into a couple of AI tools and find what works. Mishmash it a little bit until I get something I like. That was that was fantastic. It was really awesome. I'll send it over to you. We're done here. This is good. You've explained it well.

So I'm sorry, I just had to say that. So you want to kind of talk about how it started or what? Yeah, let's jump in. Let's jump into what motivated you to making this thing happen. You know, it was kind of the rubber ball, right? I mean, you didn't really know what you had with the rubber ball until you started bouncing it. And I, you know, I had a family member go through behavior health right alongside and helping them to the process.

And, you know, I had a unique background in the financial markets, which isn't sexy and isn't fun at all. And I hated it. But that was my background. But entering with that thought in terms of, you know, what really happens in the financial markets is information, transparency, data connection, right? And that's how people transact and see markets and price markets and see value. And as I went with this individual through the behavioral health journey, I realized, whoa, there is none of that. And going to

facilities and things of that nature, checking out of facilities and being like, okay, we're going to send them back home, Mr. Calhoun, where do you want them to go? And I'm thinking, like why are you asking me who knows nothing about behavior health and where's the connectivity and the connected fiber of you understanding this is the behavioral journey clinically of this person like I broke a leg right and I go into the the hospital system and I get you know I see my maybe I start with my my orthopedic or maybe I start with my primary care doc and and they assess me and I go down this clinical path it might get a second opinion but I by an innate know that process. And, and, you know, I think when we started TPN, we started asking kind of these

different questions. We didn't ask how to make money. We didn't ask, you know, how do I serve the, you know, the ultimate patient client? We asked like, well, what is going on? Like, what is systematically wrong here? And I think the root of this whole thing, which is not solving the problem, but it's almost identifying is anybody who walks into behavior health or needs behavioral services, which is all of us in some semblance of scale, right? Yeah. You know, I don't understand the value proposition of behavior health, meaning I don't understand who I need to see and then how long I need to see that person

until I get peace of whatever issue I think I have. And if I don't know that, right? if I don't know those two things, that I don't know cost. Okay. And for some reason, and I kind of understand it, but in some reason, behavior health and mental health and with the providers, you know, capitalism and money has been a dirty word. Because it's attached to all the screwing around that's gone around with insurance.

And I get it. But all of the parties that are involved have the same issue, right? they've been unable to demonstrate value proposition, right? So if I'm a provider and I say, come see me and I say, oh, are you going to come once a week, every other week, and we're going to talk about, you know, the unfortunate loss of your wife, right? And the issues that you're going through that and the anger and the abandonment and the loneliness that you have and we'll see how it goes, right?

But if I'm entering in that and I'm like, well, look, I make $100,000 a year, I'm not sure my insurance is going to cover this. I don't know how long I need to go into this until I feel recovery. I don't see and hold where this is going. I don't understand the value profit of this. So I might not enter behavior health. Okay. Then I'm an insurance company, right?

And I have to, my job, and you step back 20,000 feet, what an insurance company is. They're an investment house. And all they're doing is they say, I'm taking your money. And my best client is the one that's the healthiest. and so right off the bat you guys are aligned meaning i'm going to pay you and and and and you know i'm going to make sure that you're as healthy as you can be because a healthy patient is a good patient is a good client for me because you're not pulling out of my out of my dollars so they want to you know this is a this is a foreign concept to behave your health and like they want you

to be very healthy because you being very healthy is not going to the emergency room you're not going to do all this stuff, right? But what the insurance companies can't quantify is how do I walk you through the behavior health world? How do I, what is, you know, you might have depression and anger issues and, you know, is that DBT skills that you have to go through or internal family systems that you have to go through and, you know, and what is that cost and what is the percentage of these 1,000 lives at this demographic at this diagnostic that get through this and in 10 sessions they're at

some semblance of peace and they're not going to need more of this stuff right and that's those are the issues that happen in behavior health on all sides of this transaction that that kill it from the beginning because because there isn't a distinguished value proposition that occurs right and so that is a massive elephant in the room that is like we're And I think people, I think hearing that people innately, they're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. And they're like, okay, what, then what? Right? It's like, okay, you know the problem.

Now what the hell are you going to do about it? And I think as we started to understand that, it kind of went back to the roots of, well, what makes a marketplace, what makes information, what makes decisions, right? And it really turned us to thinking about, well, the most powerful person in this whole thing and the one that has all the answers and the one is the same as the physical. It's the primary care doc, right? Or it's the doctor system that talk to each other and let them drive the process, right? Because if we look at behavior right now, who's driving the process? Idiots like me and you, right, who don't know a lot about behavior.

We're like, oh, well, I have a drinking problem. and this place has sweet, you know, palm trees and a beach and, you know, the rooms look nice. And I'm going there. Well, you know what? You know what? That's not clinical match care. Okay. That's not how it should be driven, right?

And then, you know, that's why we have all these issues that we've had in the substance abuse market and other things because you have, you have Google and you have all these things driving this market to push these people into areas that aren't a fit for them, right? But you're trying to turn a buck. And so it's no fault of anybody's involved at all. It's no fault, right? It's, you know, of course it's going to go that way. Of course you're going to have unintended negative consequences that occur because you're

pushing bodies around and sending them flight tickets to go to Florida and, you know, all these systems and issues that have happened. Of course that's going to happen, right? I get that. You know, it's no, it's no fault. It's you're in a system that's not run and doesn't have appropriate, you know, I guess clinical professionals driving it. And so that's really where we came out about TPN.

We were just asking different questions. And what that led us to was, well, if the clinicians drive this, if the social workers and psychologists and counselors and, you know, addiction counselors drive this market and, you know, interventionists and, you know, all the thing, how do we, what do we do? How do we get them together? Really what came about was, well, we need to build an almost a LinkedIn marketplace for them to come into and actually drive these decisions and actually see the market, be like, I'm in where I'm today and in Palm Springs, right? I need to see the marketplace and understand, okay, who's in Orange County, who does DBT,

skills and who does this because I have a patient that I've done the diagnostic work. And we have 40, 40, 50 years of clinical research to do this stuff, right, to do clinical diagnostic work and tests and things like that and find out, okay, so, you know, this might be the best process. This person fits. This person takes their insurance. You know, this person is available. This cultural competency or or care alliance right this person actually understands uh you know let's talk about me and not anybody else i'm a white male i'm 48 okay i grew up in connecticut and i live in new orleans and you know i'm i'm in cal so i'm all over the place in america and and decently educated and i need to be connected with someone who understands that demographic and understands my

cultural competency and i need a care alliance like how do we get all that that information at scale. So, so a clinician, so we, we started, we built in five quarters, took us five quarters to build what looks and feels like a LinkedIn for the, for the B2B space. And, um, um, you know, you know what, what happened when we launched it? Not that. Nobody care. We launched, we launched in March of 20, 20 and we're like you know and like yeah everybody's going to go and this is you know people are going to want this and no crickets nobody kick crickets nobody care nobody understood kind of like well oh you're like psychology today or you know you're trying to do this that the other and

and of course i'm like no no no we're this and we're that and we're going to do this and then people are like i don't even know you're talking about and i don't care so that that that was how this whole thing about man what a surreal moment that must have been all this time all this planning these ideas thinking about this is going to be an incredible game changer yeah what happens then man like what take me through what happens at that point in time like you know you build it they're supposed to come right yeah and um yeah i thought we were fielded dreams i was like they're going to love this they're going to love us and and yeah we're solving their problems and i think a couple of things And I, you know, maybe you have, hopefully you have a lot of, you know, clinical and licensed

providers on, but they don't trust anybody, right, Lucille. I mean, they've been sold a bag of crap over and over again, snake oil salesmen, I'm going to do this, I'm going to promise this. And then, you know, I'm, you know, you're, you're just trying to, um, um, whatever it would be, right? And so they're, they're highly skeptical. And this is a fantastic. universe and fascinating universe because this is a highly educated universe, highly.

Like these are doctors, right? They've done the four or three thousand hours of clinical work. You know, they have a master's. Some have a doctorate. I mean, these are highly sophisticated, highly educated people that are massively underpaid. And so they don't trust folks. They've been screwed. They've been screwed by insurance because of the things that the, the, the, the, the structural issues I talked about, you know, they, they, they, they, most of them, you know, went to school to learn how to, uh, do these therapies. They're all very passionate about it, right? Yes. And as I am, you know, you're dealing with, uh, you know, a lot of folks have gone through these therapeutic journeys themselves and come through that and seeing the value of that and the

quality they've had in their life and they want to give that to the rest it's it's a wonderful journey but they they also what they didn't learn is how to run a business right how to run a practice how to do these things and there's there's there are a few in there that that can but um and and and without that knowledge they've been taken advantage of by a lot of things we can get into that stuff later about what's happening in the marketplace where they're just getting screwed yeah um but we when we launched it, it was COVID, came about, and we had a pretty facile, strong tech team. And one of the things we did in the beginning to grow providers is we go to conferences and we get a booth. And we'd say, come join TPN. And we'd probably catch about 20 to 25% of the clinical market that was at the

conference. It costs us a lot of money to do it. And it wasn't scalable. And so we keep thinking about like, well, how do we solve this? How do we get this? And then we started realizing when COVID came about, we're like, wait a second, we know tech. And we know what to do here. We could build continue education on top of this. And we can actually put out very high level. And it and And it maps really closely with what we're doing. Because not only are we bringing the clinicians, but we train the clinicians. And so we started building a learning management system for a continue education. And, you know, fast forward today, we are pretty big in that market.

And we, I mean, we last two weeks ago, in one week, we did 72 continue education workshops. And we work with, you know, the thesis around it was we don't, we don't, again, and I'll repeat this again, I don't know anything about what I've learned in health care and behavior health. I've learned in the last six years. And then I guess prior just being a human being. But I didn't, we stepped in this not knowing anything and how this really works. So we just, we kind of built it how we think it should work. And we, um, we, we We said, look, because we don't know what this world needs, we start partnering with organizations. You know, we started partying with massive associations, leaders in facility leaders in the country that were doing great work, universities, other organizations that wanted to do continue education to connect with clinicians and tell them either about their programs,

tell them about what's going on and train them. And that's been going on. That process has been going on for a while. We just massively digitized it. And so these groups will come on and they'll do a continue education workshop and five to 25 to 3,000 people clinicians will come on and they'll train them and provide them ethics or clinical training or, you know, what have you to,

so they can maintain their, standing. And then what really developed out of that for us is this philosophy for TPN is we want to be the digital home for providers to maintain their professional status, get their professional status, or elevate their professional status, whether it's credentialing at a higher level, training at a higher level, getting the best of the best what's going on. So I might be in San Diego and I'm getting trained by folks in New York that I would never be able to get to. And then was also very important to us and always will be, is that this is financially frictionless for the most part to the provider, meaning all the things you'll see, we hear all

the time is like, I don't think anybody understands how we make money. And we'll talk about that, because that's important for everybody to understand it because we don't make money off the clinicians who are number one user. When we think about, out when you think about companies like Uber or Lyft and things like that, they clearly define who their customer is, as we do too. So Lyft, their customer is the driver, okay? And Uber, their customer is the passenger. We, of all the customers that we have, whether they're health plans, state governments, uh, facilities, um, our, um, you know, biggest customer is the, is the provider, period. And making sure that they are getting the things they need and simplifying

their life of efficiency to advance, um, um, you know, thrive. All those things that that's where we focus. Man, it's, it's such time. I want to bring in a. a few of the people we got on stage over here. Shout out to Juliet over there. Julia, you're such an awesome person. Thank you for being here and hanging out with us. She says, great idea.

Care Alliance. I hear you a lot of, a lot of, uh, uh, I found my people, business alliance. Absolutely. Then I got to bring in my friend Jesse Munreel over here. Jesse, shout out to Jesse. Go check around doing some amazing things in addiction. She says, yep, burned out by all the massive structures in health care, not appreciated. Hold what to implement by people who have no.

patient contact measured by metrics that are relevant. It's very hard to trust anyone coming in claiming to be on our side. Trevor, what would you tell someone like Jesse? Yeah, I hear you. And I wouldn't either. And I wouldn't, you know, we don't ask anybody for trust at all. And we don't ask anybody for money. We just say, you know, try it out. And really, the try it out is where you want to dip your toes in the simplest one for people where the journey start with clinicians and TPN is really our continued education. It's live. It's on demand. We've got a ton of it and it's super high quality and it's free. And then where the journey goes is where we took it this year and will grow significantly next year is really because we have this digital

relationship with providers. And we understand their credentialed, they're licensed. We understand their demographics we understand their cultural competency because they share this information we can actually do two three really significant things one we can we're directly connected with the payer right so we there's no go between with the ultimate person that has the purse book on on their member lives so we will go work with a third party administrator that might manage 100,000 lives for, you know, name the company, the Chick-fil-A, okay? And Chick-fil-A, which is beautiful, cares about their employees, okay? And they want a healthy employee, and they care that not only, you know, Sally, who's in the,

you know, C-suite, and Sally has kids that they're taking care of, and those kids are taken care of and they have, so what we do is we've built technology that all of those families have a text number okay and they can text in and in seven minutes they're talking to a licensed care counselor okay this is a counselor that's licensed and they're a care navigator and they take that life and they diagnose that life and they get the personality match so we can start to think about that care alliance but also that diagnostic match through that process we actually directly contract the providers on our network and we pay them and people still don't believe this we've pay them at their at their cash rate and we don't take anything any money from them at all okay

the value that we create at tpn yeah i mean this is very cool and change the market and we'll talk about what's going on the market and how clinicians are getting screwed is on their contracted piece of paper that's what they get and every time they ask me is like well are you taking a 20 from this or they know we're not taking it that's it's your contracted rate okay you put your claim through us we will pay you in less than 30 days back on on services you had Not only the services you do, we will provide you with, you know, that referral. You can take that referral or not. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

All these other services are like, you have to take this referral if you're like, why? What is this indentured work, right? And then, you know, and then you can cancel the contract, not do this work. We don't, it's that these are your, these are your autonomy and your choices. but we are doing matches that's pretty cool because these are folks that you actually were clinically trained to do now isn't that a novel idea like I was actually trained to do IFS and I'm IFS level two and I wanted to to work with folks that actually need their services and that's what I'm going to focus you know heart seat surgeons do not fix

effing legs they don't right so that's really you know because we're so large in terms of our reach of providers, we're able to kind of break down that process. And you hear a lot about ghost networks, right? We can get into this issue. Like the reason, another reason why insurance is failing so much is because what they do is they thought differently about this market. They said, well, I'm going to contract you as a provider. Now you're contracted. Do you know what happens after that? Nothing. The relationship's over. I've got a piece of paper. You're contracted. it's on you to tell me if you're available or have a place to tell you're available where you're located and that information goes cold within three months right and so they have all these ghost

networks they have they're getting sued left and right carillon elephants you know centine we know it very well because we talk to these folks and and and they don't have um the provider networks they're basically here's the dirty secret health insurance companies are selling you a service they don't have. They're selling you. I have a provider network in the behavioral space and you can pay this money to me and I'm going to get you in network providers

but they don't have anybody and everybody on this call knows it because they go and they go with their family, their daughter, their brother, whatever it is, and they go try to find somebody and they get a phone tree that they got a call down to find out and all these people are like,

I don't take this insurance. I'm not available. Like that's crap. And they're selling this to folks and they know it very well. And they don't have an alternative to do it. And that's really where we come in as we have digitized this process and take it away a lot of the noise. So when you think of TPN, we kind of can handle all of it.

The credentialing, the paneling. A lot of it is on our piece of paper. So you're not, you know, we are a PPO network. So it's quite cool. yeah it's amazing i got a bunch of people chiming in over here from the from the discord the first one comes to us from desiree she says where's the behavioral health system especially around referrals and networks and admin most dishonest right now about how broken it actually is how trouble do we want to get as much as we can all right i mean we've been very quiet about this for a while

But we're 92,000 providers and we grow four to five thousand a month. There's nobody that grows as fast as we do because we are, and you probably see it and hear it in my voice. Like I don't effing care. We are here for the provider and we did this not to make money in the beginning. We did this passionately to solve a problem. And now that we've solved the problem, the world's going to freak out because the existing systems that are occurring they're not even systems they're literally not even systems like why do you think that that behavioral providers take cash pay and what and the whole world's like

they only take cash pay and like if I was a provider I have no idea how to get reimbursed and if I do reimburse I've got to think of a world of like this CPT code and this dotted I and this what and that going on and then I've got to wait 90 days 180 days to find out to get that money. So they've got two problems, right? One problem is they've complicated the entire process of the CPT, where there's only like 20 CPT codes in behavior health, first of all, not a lot. And then they haven't really built an efficient system

to handle these claims on the health plan process, right? And so not only do they not have a digital connection with their providers, they don't pay their providers enough. So health plan systems is how they'd solve it. They're like, well, we're just going to increase, reimbursement. Do you know who doesn't care about that? Someone who's making $100,000 and $150,000, if they're making $150,000, they don't want to wait 90 days for more money. They would wait, you know, 20 days for less money, right? And ours that we're telling people, it's like, first of all, there's two things you don't have to do. You don't have to bet paid less money, and you don't have to pay some service to take 30% of your money that's yours, and you can get paid faster. And it's, and it's all, this has all been, you know, behavior health has been lost for not. And I'll get to the referral question in a second, but I just want to make this point.

Behavioral health has been lost for this whole process because if you think about structurally what's going on in behavior health and physical health, physical health has tremendous amount of CAPEX and a tremendous amount of liability risk. So what happens with that is you have to build huge networks that can facilitate that because you have equipment needs, right? I've got to do CT scans. and this test and that blood, all that stuff, right? It doesn't happen in behavior health. So you don't need to be attached to a huge network, the hospital or anything of that nature, or a huge practice or any of that nature, right?

And so that's how historically behavior health has been like, I'm hanging up a shingle. I have an office, and maybe I'll have a couple of partners. But that's it. So that's why this whole industry has been siloed and bifurcated and analog forever. And now, you know, we're coming in and saying, look, we can actually do this at scale and we don't have to do it off the backs of providers

and take money off them. And I can name names if you want to. But, you know, these referral networks and what's going on is they've really thought of either, you know, tight networks geographically. They've thought of, you know, trying to make a marketplace where it's like, I need, if I'm going to build this, I can get the provider. and contract them, go out, call them, panel them, all that stuff. But then I've got to get the supply of lives, right, to kind of facilitate this transaction. And the lives, what they care about, especially as you go and scale, they want to make sure you have enough providers that you can handle this smoke, that you can handle the fact of, like,

hey, I'm Disney. I have 300,000 lives. I'm in Connecticut. I'm in Texas. I'm in California and Florida. Okay. And I think North Carolina is mainly where their lives are. like how are you going to handle all that and i want to use one vendor and so they're like okay

we're just going to start building this network and kind of fit to that because i want that shiny star of disney right and and you know you you you you know because of the digital structure of these systems they've missed the ball and they've and they basically said you know and this is how it goes. Provider, I'm getting paid, meaning whatever that group is $120 for a CPT code, and you're going to get paid $90 for a 60-minute psychotherapy session or 70 bucks, sometimes 50 bucks, right? If you're, you go further down the quality chain. And that's not okay. Yeah. It's a great point. And I think it illuminates one of the many issues a lot of people have been having in here. In fact, Juliet comes in and she says that as a personal payer, I would rather cash pay for people whose training and expertise fit my personal need. It's expensive, but I pay for quality and fit. It's a good point. She also comes in. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, the, you know, it goes to value-based care, right? Right. And quality. And you mentioned,

Is it Juliette who said it? Correct. Is that, yeah. So what, you know, this goes back to, you know, the collective of behavioral health has to look at themselves who shunned capitalism. They've completely looked at it as a dirty word and at their detriment and, and, and not have a system to kind of handle this. And it's nobody's, it's the collective.

It's nobody's individual. It's just kind of how that system was, was evolved. And what, what if I were to tell you that, you know, one, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, and in a, and a, and how we all know, we all know, if there's providers on this call, you all know that we've, we've, we've had the clinical research for 40 years to know that. And how we've built this system is we connect with our lives via app. I mean, I'm sorry, quite the opposite, by SMS, not app. Okay, so we can actually, as the relationship begins, and they text in, say, look, you know, I'm a school teacher in San Antonio.

I think I had a breakdown. I just need to talk to somebody to figure this out, right? That's where that journey might begin. And then you start to go through the diagnostic process, you go to the personality score. But that doesn't stop there, right? because now we can actually track the outcomes of that life as it goes in because we're the entire process of the payer understanding what therapeutic modalities are coming through to that

journey our care navigators are matching and tracking their third party agnostic to the process so they're not going to like massive facility detox center and that detox says well this person has to stay here now for 30 more days I'm like well that's not your call and we might find thanks for the detox work we stabilize this person and there's we're we're going with the iop option here at the separate facility um getting a little off track but the point is we can start to track those lives and outcomes at at massive scale so thousands and thousands of lives and then understand the actual value prop of each therapist understanding and also agnostic to them so they're not controlling. So I might be Juliet who does DBT skills. And if Juliet gets a woman in

her 30s to 45 who suffers from anxiety and depression and, you know, things of that, and 70% of those people after six months are, are improving, are feeling better about their lives than that. Like, do you know who's going to pay for that and pay more? The payer and the employer and the person who's doing that. And so then we can start moving into value proposition and understanding, like, not only are you going to get paid, you know, the rate that we started off, we're going to start paying you more because you're in more demand because you're doing good work. What does that also sound like?

That sounds like the physical health market where you have like, this guy's a good doctor. Everybody wants to see him. He does good work because we can measure it and see it. We're not measuring anything in behavioral health, nothing. And especially not at some skin. scale to understand what is good and what is not good. And we're able to do this. And the beauty of this is, do you know who's going to pay for all of this tracking of the payer? Because they want to know. They want to know what is going on. What are they paying for? What are their outcomes? They want to know that I don't get surprised bills because, you know, John couldn't get a therapist and John had to go to the emergency room because he thought I had a heart attack when he's just having a panic attack and freaking out. but if you can capture john before level set him and get him through behavior health the cost of john go way down and that's what they care about right and what you care about as a therapist is you

get john and you're you're actually getting him to the right place and and and getting him to stability and on to thriving yeah the word alignment comes to mind for me you know yeah it's who would have thought that this who would have thought that um alignment and getting both parties exactly what they need is the answer yeah but but here's the cat here's the yeah you know what it's okay to make money for these therapists and they want to but they just and they should they should they should be paid just like doctors right yep like there should there's going to be specialists that come out of this in five 10 years i predict that are going to be making and there are some of the in the industry but there there there's going to be folks because you know what they're doing my

peace is just as valuable as my ability to walk it's just as valuable so why why is their disparaging cost structure you know my ability to uh you know have you know a healthy heart is just as valuable as me is having a you know a peaceful state in my mind and and and and and having internal gratitude and love for myself yeah it's well said who else we have thomas coming over here thomas coming in from virginia he says you've got almost a hundred thousand verified providers now when does that network when does that network hit the point where payers basically have to route everything through tpn and the whole power flip happens thanks thomas appreciate Yeah, thanks for that.

It's a big fans out there already. It's slowly happening. And it's, you know, I think of it. Life's a beautiful thing because we don't control it. We, we just thank it for a blessing. And I think one of the blessings that's happened to us with TPN is we've wanted to work with health plans for a while. we've knocked on their doors and said we can do this for you and you know what they've done to us every

time they're like you know what they're like well no we know what's going we don't you know it and that's changing significantly yeah um in terms of their understanding of the value of what we can do on a cost basis because this is like let's not again let's it's economics here that they they want that you know you know nonprofits have lived and breathed and crushed behavior. your health in my opinion because it's the well-intended and you know who doesn't care about the well-intended someone has to give the goddamn lights on it's like look I want to do that and that's great and but but you know give me structure where I can actually do good work be valued for it and get paid for it and that's what we are developing and so when you think about that on the health

plans you know he's he's right and he's kind of in our playbook right now in terms of we want be the digital infrastructure of behavior health. We want to be at that place where, you know, when you're a provider and you're thinking about you, like, I'm on TPN, I can build my practice, I can elevate myself, I can connect, I can, I can have patients that come in that don't fit and I can find a fit for them. I can feel ethically comfortable about that and rewarded about doing this process. There's transparency. There's controls and rails in terms of the credentialing around this i know who's who and credentialed and what they're doing and they're licensed um you know we see we see all in terms of what um bless you um my girlfriend's in the room yeah we see we see all uh that

uh you know what a clinician is going through in terms of where they are in terms of their hours of a year so that that that's great for you know a clinician that might work for a big practice or a big facility they may work for Acadia or Meadows and Meadows wants to see like where are my clinicians in this thing because they need to be licensed and what things do they want to know and learn and this and you know someone I saw mentioned about burnout like you know what burnout is about I think in our perspective it's like not being valued and cared for at your facility right not not getting the education I need the services I need the attention I need to care for the folks that are coming through those doors and you know we can help a lot with that in terms of the trainings specifically

that someone needs because most of those most people that are in behavior health they're freaking fantastic beautiful human beings that just want to help people and they want the tools to help people yeah without a doubt they see it every single day they live it in their lives They've seen it in their families. And beyond that, they're working in an environment where it's life or death for some of these people. They see the destruction of families. Oh, it's heartbreaking. I mean, think about the folks that are work in emergency rooms, right?

And we're getting calls from ER, heads of ER docs all the time. And then I go and reach out, and I'm about the name names at some point. I'm not doing that today. But I reach out to the hospitals and say, look, your emergency docs are reaching out because they want to use our services and they're like they won't even call us back but the emergency doctor to do like I need to move this patient out of our emergency room and find care and think about that person who is a human being I'm a nurse I'm a doctor okay and I have someone that I'm looking at that's next door in a room that is having a panic attack and I am not equipped to

handle that and I've got someone who's coding over here that I've got to deal with, and you, hospital and executive group, are not paying attention at all to this issue or even helping me with the solution to move this patient out of the hospital into someplace that works. And we can help in spades in that. And still, no one has kind of said like, yeah, we'll go do that. That's frustrating to me. Yeah, especially if you're someone in line in the emergency room and you need to get in there with your emergency right right because you're clogging up a yeah totally totally uh who else do we got over here i have another one coming in from neil he says he's talking about dissolving administrative burdens he says your dissolving

administrative burdens nobody else could touch when do clinicians finally look back and say tpn freeze them i think i've read that right yeah when do we what when do we look back and when do you when he i think the question is a little worded a little odd he says maybe you could speak on the idea of dissolving administrative burdens that no one else is willing to touch yeah i mean i i i think that the administrative burdens that are going to be dissolved and are are being dissolved or just a derivative of the activity of of a of a of a digital marketplace right and i'll say it i'll say it this way which is outside side of TPN, but when I started my career professionally, again, I am not a health care

but I started at Bear Stearns in 1999 and I would take a trade ticket into what it was called the cage at 245 park and we'd make a trade, right? So think about that for a second. This is someone who's executing a trade and 30 seconds later, it's getting to the cage and then they're typing in and executing and it's done. And so do you know what it doesn't exist anymore? that job I did, all the people in the cage, you know, all that administrative stuff. And now it's just, it's just, it's actually the person who is thinking about the process, what needs to happen, how to execute, and presses a button. And so that's what happens in a digital market is a lot of this administrative burden starts

to melt away. And I think when you look at us, we're, we're a real time live network where, where because we have engagement and because we're bringing so much digital utility that therapists are using it and we're understanding where they are, what their needs are, and what goes on. I think it's important to understand is we don't sell data. We've built a whole system where we're not meta. We're not selling data. We're not Google.

We're not selling data. What we sell is connectivity and access that the provider decides. They can decide, I want a referral. I want to be on this network. I want to be served up, continue education. right but we're not selling that to anybody outside of tpn that's all within the ecosystem and they decide to to engage with how they're and that's an important thing yeah because i could go out and i could be like you're humana course that's a lot of valuable information in there yeah like

no that's that's a short game yeah it's interesting uh who else do we got over here the next question comes in, it says, if you burned it all down, what are the absolute non-negotiables for TPN? Burned, burned all TPN down or burned what down? If you burned all the health care stuff down, like if you take everything out, what are the non-negotiables for you and your team? I still don't quite understand the question. You negotiables are what we want?

Yeah. I don't thoroughly understand it. I guess so he's just trying to ask, what are the, when you're, you know, when you. you get when you look at the big picture of what it is building what are the non-negotiables for you like if if everything fell away what is the very core concept the very foundation oh the foundation it's it's it's the relationship with the providers right it's it's a hundred percent the honoring and and relationship with the provider so they feel and and through actions from us and and offerings and utility that they feel honored and and that is the core of

of our business and what we do. And that comes, I mean, I step back, another thought, the questions we get a lot are like, we don't have enough therapist in the U.S. Like, you hear that all the time, right? I do, yes. Nobody has the right to ask that question, period. You know why? Because if I'm a regulatory body and I'm, say, the state of New York, do you know what they know about their provider market 80% accuracy they know if their license are not licensed and that is it they don't know where they practice uh who they practice with uh what physical location they practice do they do it virtually in person are they available what networks they're involved with on the insurance side

where they got their education they don't know anything right so it's like if i have lawyers and i'm like well we don't have enough lawyers right yeah but you don't know what those lawyers are doing or what if they're practicing or where they're practicing right so we don't know we don't yet understand the actual data of the market and how is that even possible we're turning into 2026 with AI and blah blah blah like we don't know we have no idea yeah it's a brilliant point what do you think was the biggest milestone for you guys in 2025 um we started consistently acquiring and having providers join at three to four to five thousand a month and that and then and I think and it became this flywheel and and I think it was that you know is that flywheel

moment for us and I I think it started to realize where and it was more emotional internally where it just became like this we don't have to work as hard as we have to bring this out and i think the market is um and that scale right because the market's starting to recognize the value of what we're doing and then they're they're they're coming back in after they came for the first time to do other things and then it was like oh well why do i have to go somewhere else this is this is what's going on and i don't think um i mean i'm really excited for next year um because we're going to start to the promise of tpn i mean the ultimate promise is to improve outcomes right and that promise really comes about when you connect the patient to the clinician

in this seamless way and you do it clinically right and you and you're able to do it on a on a on a caroliance basis and that's really going to elevate i you know our team is growing and i keep telling the team it's like i don't think we're prepared emotionally to what if we all the things that we say we are and believe like if if the the the reality of that of how how consequential this is. And we're really excited about that. And also, like, you know, candidly, I'm a little afraid of what that looks, you know, how that is and how my, you know, what that, you know, what that, that action looks like, just candidly. You know, we're getting a lot of attention and, which is nice. And, but it's, you know, it, it's never forgot to us of, you know, we work really hard to figure out, who our customer is and I'm glad we found out our customer is the one who doesn't pay us who is the provider yeah I'm actually that kind of makes me happy to hear you speak so candidly because I think what you guys are building is revolutionary I think that you have a real

opportunity to bring value back to the people that need it the most in there and I could understand that it's it's it's dangerously beautiful to build something and then see it start working in a way like oh shit here we go yeah i mean i've been you know i'm getting this is like george i'm so grateful for this opportunity because i'm getting we are getting way more candid about and aggressive about who we are and what we are we used to be very quiet about because we didn't want anybody stealing what we're doing right and because we thought we had but to your point is now we're like oh this is kind of working like this stuff I've been saying or we've been saying is

starting to happen and it's kind of one of those moments like whoa and and that's happening a little bit it's exciting and scary all at the same time it is it is and it's fascinating I got one last question that comes in here and it says if a clinician listening wants to help replace the old system instead of just complaining where should they jump in first with you guys hopefully it's quite intuitive when you come on TPN. And it depends where you're at. I mean, we have large practice groups that come on with, you know, 200 providers that that can just contract with us and contract all their 200 providers. You know, the journey always starts with

continue education generally. And then, you know, think of it like LinkedIn, connecting with other providers on there, you know, if your license will credential you, if there's an issue, we'll let you know and you can fix it. So we're doing a very cool event. I put on LinkedIn, which I've never posted about an event before, but I did because I get a lot of these questions and I'm passionate about this whole artificial intelligence piece where we have a very big stance where artificial intelligence has no place in the interaction with the patient, period. All of our care navigation is human interact. AI is not ready, even close for prime time, but let alone not having a regulatory body on top of it for liability issues.

But in terms of what we're hearing in the marketplace with young men and, you know, chat GBT and suicide stuff, Yeah. It is scary. Illinois has done a wonderful job of taking a legal stance on it. And California is about to do the same. But we're doing a three-hour ethics, AI training. Ethics is very obviously important for licensure. And that's happening next week, I think, on the 29th in the afternoon. But that stuff's just really cool to start. We really want to be. bringing forward the thought leaders in this marketplace of either what are the best practices, what are new practices, what are sharpening up of practices, what are the best thought practices, how do I handle taxes for this year? How do I build a great practice?

All these toolboxes that you need is just going to ever improve even next year where we'll be we'll be creating tracks, right? So I just graduated, got my MSW from Michigan like I want to do here. I need a supervisor. I need to, like, let's build a package for you, right? And how do you become where you want to be? I mean, I always get surprised when people hear stories of young clinicians coming out and they just grab a supervisor because it's not what they want to do, but they need a supervisor. Like, that's nonsense, right?

I mean, think about back to the physical market. Like, I don't go join this area of, you know, E&T when I want to be a, you know, I want to be a orthopedic surgeon. Like, no, I want to go train with an orthopedic surgeon. What the hell is going on here? Yeah, it's like a fast track of burnout. All of a sudden, just getting involved in something you don't want to be part of. The head of our sales, Sarah Duke is a counselor, Cornell, NYU.

She worked at a psych hospital in Brooklyn and burnt out. All these issues. Yeah. supervisor, not fitting what she wanted to do, the facility, not listening to the staff on what their needs are. they're getting people in all the time they had to check people out that needed to stay it was like someone who has who's who's um you know has debilitating mental health issues that are just need to be stabilized and managed they're like okay it's time to check them out like check them out to where check this what are you talking about like this isn't you know this is a

this is a this is a schizophrenic person with blah blah blah disorder like how we're what are you talking about. Yeah. So. Yeah. There's nowhere to go. But now there is, man. I'm,

I really mean this when I say, I'm grateful for not only what you're building, but your entire team out there. I love the way it's led by clinicians. And I love even more that it has the potential to bring about true solutions for the mental health care

industry. As someone who's been affected in my life and I have family members have been affected by it. It really seems like a whole new sort of opportunity for everybody involved in. And I want to say congratulations for doing it and having the courage to do it and coming out and speaking about it and providing opportunities for other people to be part of that solution. I think that that's for me is one of the most exciting parts is you're providing opportunities for everyone to be part of the solution out there. So, thank you for that i appreciate you saying that george it's um uh you know one thing that's not fun that wasn't fun about writing this thing is making payroll for two years barely you know every

week not having the money and trying yeah you know um hopefully that's kind of a little bit in our rear view but that you know building a business is not uh it's it is not an easy thing and and you know what's helpful a lot of therapy I had the fortunate, I sat in a dinner with Dick Schwartz who internal family systems and we were chatting. He goes, I'm doing an offsite and Santa Cruz and I want you to come. And I wasn't really familiar with IFS at that point. And I was like, okay. And I told the team and I came back and they're like, what?

Dick Schwartz and you're going to do. And I was like, yeah. And that was unbelievable journey for me of healing and providing grace to myself of things that I, still held on to and it's still you know i fs if folks have not done it and other modalities but is a wonderful um gift to give to yourself uh in terms of finding your own internal peace and grace for yourself and gratitude for life as as whole um and and those seem to be kind of the key factors in a in a life of quality i've found yeah this opens up a whole of the habit. Like some of the most successful companies are people that started at the bottom

and worked their way up. And when I hear you speak about going and doing the IFS, like, look, you've been through the therapy. You understand what it's like to build a business. You understand what it's like to try to keep the lights on, to try to make payroll out there. So it's like you've been through it on all different sides. I got to think that, and not only you, but the young lady that you mentioned that was in the psych that was working in the psych department. And now she's over in sales. Like, it's refreshing to me to get to see people. build things with individuals who have been all the way through the system. I think that that, in my opinion, is what makes a system work effective and efficient.

Yeah, understanding what's not working or what did it feel that. You feel those moments. Yeah, the real world experience out there. I watch you right up over here to this hour mark, but I want to kick it back to you just for a moment. Like, where can people find you? What do you have coming up again? Maybe you can give the details on what you have coming up again. And if someone is listening to this, they want to reach out and learn more.

Where do they go to do that? Well, first, I mean, the whole journey and I just say it, thank you for these opportunities and the platform to talk about this, George. Super grateful. One thing to be thought of is I think people are going to hear a lot about us next year. We've spent no money on marketing and we've done no PR. And January next month, that changes significantly. So we're excited about this and this is kind of, you know, we talked for a little bit when we connected and I really enjoyed you and I was like, all right, let's just kick this off here. So it's great to have this opportunity, but I think I'll be doing more of this. But in terms of, I mean, it's just in the bottom right

on my screen, just TPN.health, just start there. I mean, that's, hopefully it's designed pretty clearly on how you engage and connect and where it goes. But next year, we have, we will have millions and millions and millions of lives that are insured through us and payers through us, that those lives will be looking for behavioral health care and we'll be shepherding through the process. And we look to grow that and grow that and grow that. And this year was kind of the petri dish test for all that. We started kind of midway through the year and we've built the systems out and kind of handle scale. But next year, you know, for the clinicians that are listening,

you know, take a chance on this process. And most of the things we hear from clinicians like, this sounds too good to be true. And, you know, if it's too good to be true, it's probably not. But I think in our case, it's almost a pendulum of swing is you've been screwed for so long in the system that has not served you that we're presenting,

you know, through technologies a way to actually clean this up ethically. and efficaciously and really, really, really bring change positively to the market. And I don't know what the unintended consequences are, the unknown, unknown, unknown, yeah. But we'll find out and go to this journey. You'll find that we are, I think people always get shocked. like they'll say something and we'll go and change it, right? I mean, we are very receptive to feedback.

And I think that might have started from me because I don't know anything about, I've just listened and listen to people about what's going on in the clinical markets and stuff like that. So we build a lot around the needs of clinicians. So we'd love to hear from clinicians and what their needs are and what's going on. Well said. Ladies and gentlemen, if you were within the sound of my, my voice if you're watching right now on the screen you'll see tpn dot health there's also a QR code that you can scan go check it out if you are someone who's listening go down to the show

notes and hit the links down there reach out to trevor reach out to the team trevor hang on briefly afterwards to everybody else within the sound of my voice that participated today juliet desire dennis uh who else is coming over desiree jessey monreal everybody thanks for hanging out with us today i hope you have a beautiful day a wonderful christmas and and we'll catch you later this week. Have a beautiful day, Aloha. Thank you.