TrueLife - From Imagination to Impact: Meir Benezra’s Design Playing™ Odyssey

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Ladies and Gentlemen,Aloha and a warm welcome to an extraordinary gathering! Today, we have the distinct honor of hosting a visionary individual who has dedicated their passion and expertise to transforming the way we approach innovation and collaboration – the incomparable Meir Benezra.At the forefront of pioneering methodologies, Meir is the Play Wizard and Founder of Design Playing™, a movement that breathes life into our collective dream of a world where diverse generations come together to playfully shape the future. His journey is an odyssey marked by the belief that through applied dreaming and creative play, we can unlock unparalleled possibilities for both individuals and organizations.With a profound commitment to inclusivity and a design framework that champions flexibility, Meir has crafted the Design Playing™ approach. This transformative methodology, comprised of three chapters and six stages, draws inspiration from the boundless creativity of children, seeking to foster collaborative innovation rather than conventional problem-solving.Meir’s vision extends beyond mere concepts, manifesting in the form of Design Playshops that empower organizations to reach new heights of creativity. Whether it’s reimagining the workplace, envisioning strategic stories, or instigating community game-changing, these playshops, guided by Meir’s wisdom, invite participants to embrace the power of play as a catalyst for change.As a Play Wizard, Meir embodies the spirit of playing as a self-directed, inclusive, and emotionally expressive activity. His words echo the sentiment that playing is not only an act but a powerful manifestation and innovation tool, capable of shaping the world we truly desire.Moreover, Meir shares his expertise through a comprehensive Master Program, equipping leaders with the mindset, skillset, and toolset needed to facilitate Design Playshops. His three-tiered approach, from DP Facilitator to DP Master, forms a roadmap for those seeking to immerse themselves in the transformative world of Design Playing™.Beyond the methodologies and playshops, Meir introduces us to a value exchange model, Contribution Balanced Participation (CBP), emphasizing abundance and radical unity. This model underlines his commitment to creating a harmonious and inclusive environment for all.So, without further ado, let us embark on a journey of inspiration and playfulness with the maestro himself, Meir Benezra. Welcome, Meir, and thank you for gracing us with your presence and wisdom. The stage is yours!http:designplaying.cohttp://linkedin.com/in/meirbenezra One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Sun is shining, the birds are singing.

I hope the wind is at your back. I have an incredible guest with some incredible insights that's going to provide, in my opinion, an incredible conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, give a warm, aloha, and a welcome to an extraordinary individual. We have the distinct honor of hosting a visionary individual who has dedicated their passion and expertise to transforming the way we approach innovation and collaboration. The incomparable Mir Benezra, at the forefront of pioneering methodologies, Meir is the play wizard and founder of design playing,

a movement that breathes life into our collective dream of a world where diverse generations come together to playfully shape the future. His journey is an odyssey marked by the belief that through applied dreaming and creative play, we can unlock unparalleled possibilities for both individuals and organization. With a profound commitment to inclusivity and a design framework that champions flexibility, Mears crafted the design-playing approach.

This transformative methodology comprised of three chapters and six stages draws inspiration from the boundless creativity of children, seeking to foster collaborative innovation rather than conventional problem-solving. Mears' vision extends beyond mere concepts, manifesting in the form of design play shops that empower organizations to reach new heights of creativity, whether it's reimagining the workplace,

envisioning strategic stories, or instigating community game-changing. These play shops guided by Amir's wisdom invite participants to embrace the power of play as a catalyst for change. As a play wizard, Mir embodies the spirit of playing as a self-directed, inclusive, and emotionally expressive activity. His words echo the sentiment that playing is not only an act, but a powerful manifestation and an innovation tool capable of shaping the world that we truly desire. Mirren, thank you so much for being here today.

I appreciate your time. Wow. Thank you. Thank you, George. Wow. Thank you for host to me. That summary was amazing. Is it the power of AI?

It is. It is. It's the power of AI with a few prompts and a little bit of a little bit of push. But it's amazing, right? Yeah, it is. It is. Thank you. Thank you for doing that and reflecting that back to me.

and hearing it was interesting, I would say the least. With that perspective, like there is this understanding that I have within myself, that whenever I'm expressing myself, I do it very intuitively. And when that intuition comes, I just express. And all that information there came from that intuition. in a way. But rephrased in that way, I just felt

like it's more solid. I don't know why, but it felt more solid. Well, thank you. Prior to our hitting the start button, we got into some a fascinating conversation.

I think it speaks to the idea of conversation and language and linguistics and AI. In some ways, I think that AI is helping us communicate more in a more interesting way, I think. I'm not sure interesting is the right word, but it seems to me on some level, AI is helping us convey meaning,

whether it's sometimes when I try to create a certain type of monologue, it may miss some key things, but I find if I can use AI as a tool, I can put something in it and then it can kick it back to me, and it's almost similar to the inner dialogue, I have, but it's just kind of changing the meaning a little bit. I don't know. What do you think on the idea of using AI as a tool and meaning and language? Right now, AI is a tool. Actually, AI is a tool. And I perceive it as augmented intentions.

Oh, I love it. And it's just an augmentation to us right now. And that augmentation allows us to grow our intentions. And in that sense, yes, communication is important. What we mean to say, what we intend to say is actually the first thing that's important. And the outcome comes later. And right now we somehow outsource that outcome to AI. But still we check it. We give the prompts and then we see what the outcome is.

And what we actually check is if it's aligned with our intention or not. Because right now, it's also reflecting us how we are not very deeply connected with our intentions. Because we think we know what we want. and then AI blurbs out something. And then we see, aha, this has nothing to do what I wanted, with what I wanted. And like, let's start again.

So now I really need to know what I want. Okay, AI, ask me questions so that I know what I want first, before you give me an ask. It was just an amazing reflection for society and humanity. And I don't know how many people see it as a reflection, but it is a huge tool for reflection, but also a reflection in itself. And, you know, I haven't tried using all these different types of prompts,

but one of the topics that we were talking right before you hit record was using shortcuts in communication. And, you know, when I say something is really cool, what does it mean? And then actually it came to a point those shortcuts that they are minimized into emojis. I sent you an emoji and expect you to know what I mean by it. And these shortcuts, I don't know how AI perceives these shortcuts. Because if I tell it to write me a beautiful sentence about design playing. and then what does beautiful mean? Like, what does mayor expect when he writes beautiful?

AI doesn't know this. So it just generates something in the vicinity of what it comprehends as beautiful from its training data. Maybe it fits with mine, maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, how do I change it? How do I explain AI, but what I mean? That I'm forced to explain what beautiful means. And this was what we were talking beforehand. When we communicate, we use these shortcuts,

expecting the other person to understand. But it happens only when I start to really know you authentically or genuinely. if I really know how you feel, how you react, how you think, not what you think most of the time, but how you think, and then how you put those things into words to conway a meaning. And once we share that meaning, then whatever shortcut you want to use, you can use because I will understand you.

And one of the things I was leaning towards was even like not even but when we when we reach that point maybe we don't even need words at certain moments like you know just a smile just a nod just a just a look and then we know what we mean but only then and and we i think we see this a lot in ai but like i said i haven't tried all different types of prompts. I haven't tried sending emojis to AI and then seeing what it will bring up.

You know, maybe, like, write me a smiley sentence about playing and then tell me AI, what does smile mean for you? And then, I don't know. I don't know what it would. I love it. I, you know,

it's interesting to think about the idea of a mirror because in some ways that's what a really good friend is. A good friend is someone who reflects back to you not only the best parts about you but the parts that you need to work on as well. And in some ways,

I guess if that is maybe a philosophical question people are having with AI, is it more than a reflection? Can it be more than a reflection? Because I think a friend can be more than a reflection It seems like a friend has agency on some level. And it's interesting.

It's interesting to think about the idea of the mirror. Maybe that's why so many people are afraid of AI because it is a mirror. And it shows back to us the lack of compassion. It shows to us like sometimes it is just this side monologue or sometimes it is this scary picture that we don't want to see. I don't know. It's interesting to think about. you know it's it's really it's really fascinating for me that you mentioned philosophy in that sense because like first of all the word philosophy you know you know what it means literally

no please i don't know it means friend of wisdom you know you know like it's it's greek and you know, hydrophilia, like loving water. So those elements or those textures or whatever, you know, substances would just love water. And philosophia is just, it's loving wisdom. And when you are a friend of wisdom, when you love wisdom, and when you look at it from that perspective, there's this understanding of AI being a mirror and that people being afraid of it. It's are we afraid of our own image?

Then why are we afraid of our own image? What is what harm can I do to myself? And then when we look inside of ourselves, as soon as I ask this question myself right now, I see my judgmental self. I can harm myself because I can judge myself. Am I afraid of myself? Yes.

Yes, I am afraid of myself. I know what I am capable of when I don't master myself. And this makes me aware of what I can do without God. values without my inner guidance, I know what I am capable of. And when it's me, I'm talking about, I also have a conscience. I also have a sense of good. So that I also believe, some part of me believes that I can control myself. But then there is this image of me.

of me. Does that image have a conscience? Does that image master itself? Does that image have an inner guidance? I don't know. But not knowing

just throws gasoline in the fire. That it becomes more scary. But I really don't know. Really don't know. Will it ever have? I don't know. Does this make me fear AI in this present moment? Not necessarily at this level, I find it to be helpful, supportive.

It will or will not, we don't know, bring certain contradictions, certain arguments, fight, it's distrustful environments. But I don't know whether AI is bringing it or humans are bringing it. So there are a lot of things that I don't know about it. I can only answer from my own perspective about what I can find within myself. and this can change from person to person. So I cannot tell anyone how to feel about it. I cannot tell anyone how to think about it to each they're all.

Everyone needs to face this. I know it because we all need to face ourselves. When we do whatever comes up comes up. I love it. I feel like I'm in the allegory of the cave, but it's a hall of mirrors or something. And I once heard just quote that was something along the lines of. What a beautiful gift it would be to get to see ourselves the way others see us. And I think when you look at AI or you go out into public and you see everybody around you, that's what's happening. You're getting this rare look into you.

All those things that you see in other people, be it AI or be it. your relationships that you don't like or probably reflections of things you don't like about yourself, you know? And what you love about people are probably like things you admire and that you have inside of you. And I'm hopeful. Like that's how I choose to try and look at it on my better days is that, wow, this is a reflection of me, what I'm capable of, what I, the beauty that lies within.

And so I don't know. Maybe on some level, this is, this is, uh, this is, uh, maybe this takes us to design play in some level. This kind of sounds like we're moving into the ideas of applied dreaming. But before we even get into that, I need you to lay down a foundation for people to understand what design play is. Can you lay one out for us so people can begin to comprehend what's going on? Of course. Thank you.

Well, let's start with those two words, design and playing. Okay. And what design means is designating meaning or attributing meaning, bringing some kind of thing into existence by attributing a new meaning to it. And while doing so, there is a second part, which is playing. And for me, in its simplest form, playing means joyful learning. And design playing combines these two because it's attributing meaning while joyfully learning. And then attributing new meanings after learning. And this goes on and on and on and on and it's a cycle.

Therefore, it's not just play, but it's playing. Because you need to continuously do it. And this is the kind of work that I do. And I bring people to that new meanings while joyfully learning. But when I leave them, it becomes their responsibility to carry this cycle. And I find this to be a very, very foundational part of life that we actually do. So I, in a way, only act as a catalyst or a reminder in that sense. A reminder of how we can do this by ourselves.

And in design playing. So it's this framework to approach life, to approach businesses, to approach communication, to approach teams, whatever you choose. cities, like anything that you can design. And you can design your thoughts as well. If you are the customer, your needs can shape your thoughts. So you can design anything and anything can be part of design playing. And for that design approach, I use this framework that I created, which has three stages.

three chapters, like you said. And the first one becomes inner inspiration. So what do I mean by this? So we have these stories that we tell people. And I mentioned this earlier where we cannot live without stories because we experience past, present, future. And as soon as we start talking, we cannot talk just about that moment because the moment just passes. And then it becomes this timeline.

And then within that story, we become the character. And then we start sharing about some kind of an experience which involves that timeline. And along that line of storytelling, a very generalized meaning of story. storytelling. We tell these stories to ourselves. It can be things like

I'm an amazing person. It can be things like I'm sad. Or it can be I'm grateful. It can be why are you doing this? You are a

failure. It can be anything. But then I am interested in inner inspiration about the discrepancies between the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we tell others. And what happens between those discrepancies? Like, are we telling better stories to others than ourselves? Are we telling stories as good or worse? What kind of stories are we telling ourselves? So the inner inspiration starts with that alignment of stories, the external and internal.

When we start aligning those stories and we also tie this to those topic of shortcuts, once we start aligning these stories around those shortcuts, and we start questioning those shortcuts, and we start understanding the hidden, stories that we tell ourselves so that we realize what kind of a liar we have been that whenever someone asked how are you i was continuously saying i'm good but good meant a lot of things then we start to realize that we have a greater potential that that greater potential is mainly our creativity and we cannot unleash our full creativity unless we are ready to face all of our emotions, all of our stories, knowing their stories, knowing their

emotions, all of our thoughts, knowing their thoughts. Once we become aware of this, once we start questioning within. Once we become like philosophy friend of wisdom and that wisdom being ourselves once we become friends with ourselves

with all the voices within ourselves being able to imagine how you treat your friends imagine they're sad and they're judging themselves how you treat them the moment we start treating ourselves that way then we unleash this this immense limitless amount of inspiration within ourselves and with that that we can move on to the second chapter which is virginal thinking now we have the capacity to think from scratch to redefine things, to redefine thought patterns, to redefine ideas, to redefine behaviors for ourselves first. And once we start doing that, our images, our reflections all over the

world within the room the people we think as our team the people we think as our family the people we think as our citizens whatever then they start to change because we start applying new assumptions onto them first onto ourselves but onto them once we shift those assumptions. Now we can dream boundlessly, boundlessly in the sense that they are not hazy, they're not awake, but they are present. Because then we start manifesting those dreams in the moment, we start becoming those dreams, applying them. And this is what I call the third chapter applied dreaming. And that applied dreaming state is what we aspire to in design play. And I have this melody in my head continuously playing with this, which is like dooby-dooby-dovie,

dovie-dovie-dovie-dovie. It's yeah, doing and being at the same time, not just being as I am, but doing or not just doing but allowing to be and to have this cycle continuously dream apply

dream apply dream apply dream apply dream apply and the closer you get these two then it becomes a lifestyle it becomes the way you do things and the main difference this has from many other design principles or design methodologies is that many of them talk about problem-based or problem-centered problem-focused that you need to identify a problem and and it's like unless there is an obstacle there is nothing to solve let's find those obstacles you know

You know, I used to bite my nails. And as soon as I bit into them, there would be this really tiny, tiny little, you know, speckle of a nail that would be sticking out. And then I would continuously, you know, rub against my, with my fingers until I, like, you know, try to destroy it or I don't know what but then I would be just destroying my fingernails and then like okay this is not correct anymore and then I would continue

biting I don't know how many years ago this was but you know problems become like that you know like we just focus on them and then it becomes this obsession that we have to solve them but we We rub on them so much that we start destroying around it. And then our focus becomes just the problem. But, yeah, we cannot. We cannot find solutions to problems. We can only shift the meaning.

We can only just find new meaning. Because what are problems? there's just situations that we're uncomfortable with. Maybe for that situation, we just need to master it. You know, when you go to gym and then you start doing weights, this is not to say that this is the healthy way to live or whatever.

I don't really care how you live. It's just that, like, if we are doing that, that weight is a problem, It's uncomfortable. We need to remove that weight. Let's remove that weight so that we are just pushing air. It's easier. There is no problem anymore.

No friction, no problem. Let's remove all friction, you know? Like when we are walking, our feet is just sticking too much to the ground. Let's remove friction. But then we're just sliding. Maybe we hit the floor. because our feet doesn't grab the floor anymore. Or, you know, there's just too many boundaries and problems and issues with the body because we have a skin.

Our cells are not free enough. But then we destroy ourselves. You know, these are all situations that we find ways to be comfortable in. to be comfortable in our skins, in our bodies, with the challenges that will put ourselves in, to learn, to experience, to risk something. What are all these situations then, if not problems? Like, how do we identify what problem to solve and what problem not to solve? I don't have an answer to this. I really don't.

And I don't know whether people do also. It's just that this problem looks interesting. Let's solve it. But then where does it lead? Where does it take us? If you remove all the obstacles in the world, what is life going to be like? I don't know.

So I don't really care about problems. I care about situations, acknowledging them, experiencing them, allowing them, understanding them, understanding them, and then attributing new meanings to them while joyfully learning. So this is the main approach of design playing framework. And I use this to work with individuals, co-founders, founders, teams, organizations like you said in your introduction. And yeah, this is what it is. I think it's beautiful. I think it speaks to a more mature relationship with life.

You know, it's in our language, sometimes we use words like good or bad, but those words don't seem to thoroughly underscore the complexity that is all around us. But when you get playing with things, you learn that, hey, this thing over here is connected to this thing over here. And in some ways, if we go back to the first, maybe you could tell us an experience when you're bringing people together from different departments or just an experience that you've had working with people. do you find that they're telling themselves different stories in different parts of the administration versus the working people over here

versus the working people over here? When you come together with a group of people and you begin the first phase of storytelling, what are some of the defining features that you're able to point out to the people to help them begin learning to get on the same page? When you dig deeper in that first stage, when you start asking questions,

when you get really invested and interested in people. Without judging, without really trying to create your own meaning, just genuinely wanting to understand. People tend to find out a lot of things that they were not aware of, that they didn't know. Just this awareness opens up one of the most powerful forces in this life, curiosity. And that curiosity then starts working. If I haven't known this, then what have I been telling all these years?

That question in itself is enough. just understanding that you don't necessarily know everything and acknowledging this humbles you. That humbles your communication. That brings a human level between teams. It's actually shedding light on the truth. that we are expected to know. It's shedding light on the truth

that when we know we are more valuable. But this is just an illusion. We are not. We're already valuable. Not only when we know, but this becomes like a burden on shoulders. And isn't this what we are always paid for? I am paying you this much money because you know

true like is it okay if I learn a bit as well no no no you need to know if I'm not learning then okay

let's assume I'm not learning okay but then this becomes a habit and that habit just just really when scratched it becomes very aggressive it becomes very judgmental not always towards others just within yourself it becomes very judgmental it's not easy to accept you don't know because it's not easy to accept that it's okay not to know because when you don't know i was want to know.

I'm scared I want to know. Yeah. Yeah. This happens. And in one of the works that I was doing with with a school principal actually, at one point, he admitted that

for all these years, my main job was to listen to students, listen. to teachers, listen to parents, and to understand their needs to serve a better way. And he said, I haven't been listening. I realize now that I don't know how to listen. And this is huge.

For a school principal to accept this, this is huge. And that starts the transformation itself. That is that inner inspiration. It doesn't suggest that virginal thinking. It doesn't suggest what are you going to do about it. How can you transform this? It doesn't answer this question. Yes.

But just that acknowledgement. Ah. Okay. There is space to go. grow. When you acknowledge that space, great. That is the purpose of it. And there's boundless space around us, which we limit it not to see. And in that regard, this is basically what that inner inspiration part embodies. And that shift does not always come very easily. And what's interesting in teams and in companies, especially in startups, is that, especially in startups, is that

the whole company is a reflection of the founder. And when that founder transforms, the whole company can become useless because they represent the old image of that founder. now that whole team needs to transform together with the founder and some of them don't prefer to no matter where that transformation leads to I'm not saying where the founder is transforming towards is the right way or the wrong way

but when that transformation happens and it happens your whole team needs to transform with that transformation they need to shift so there needs to be a huge alignment and that alignment means that some people will leave not always mostly and the more you can keep this alignment and the more you can reflect that transformation so the founder also transforms with the team They allow for that space to be open as well. Then it's a good harmony.

But a founder being a founder, the reason they are a founder is they have relentlessness. They believe in what they are and what they do. They are resilient. They're like an arrow just, you know, wanting to. to bring down doors, break gates, and do things that sometimes contradicts with doby, doby, doby, because it can become do-dood-dood-dood do do. Sounds like a machine gun. Yeah.

It's interesting that I think a lot of that can apply to a family too. When I look at my relationship or some other relationships, like it really carries over, not just into a founder or a company or an entity, but a family unit as well. It sounds like maybe in any group dynamic, like that inner inspiration has to be a absorbed by the group. And maybe absorbed is the wrong word, but it has to be contagious in that each person develops that inner inspiration for themselves if the group is to move forward.

Does that sound accurate? Yeah. It's initially a very subjective experience, very personal experience. It's very like an individual dedication. is needed. Individual dedication to openness towards learning, towards discovering, towards facing, confronting, not with others, not about others, just within. If you're open, everything will follow. Everything will follow. The timing is not important in that regard. You know, what? What What is important, in practical terms, however, is how you behave during learning, because this can trigger aggressiveness, aggressivity, whatever.

And how do you reflect that side of yourself? How does the group accept you? Are you harmonized in your ways of ugly? If you are, if you can joke about it, if you can talk about it, if you are transparent about it, during, after, before, whatever. If you're patient about it, that's a very solid dynamic, I would say. It doesn't matter if it's a family, if it's a relationship, if it's a team, if it's a partner. whatever. It doesn't matter. And by the way, this is something, this is this transparency thing has been a part of me for a very long time trying to comprehend like how I can bring this more into the world. And then I will actually jump to a slightly off topic, but I'm very much invested in this,

in the sense that have you heard of this tool called SWAT analysis? No, I don't think I'm familiar with that. Okay. So within teams, in companies or whatever, within teams they do this strategy work for some teams for some leadership positions executives whatever and this strategy involves four main titles if you are building a new business if you are creating a new strategy if you are bringing a new product to the market if you are creating a new service if whatever and these four titles are they look at the strengths the weaknesses the opportunities

and the threats swat and of course this is not this is not um subject to or applied to relationships or personal relationships, let's say, or families or whatever. This is more in lines of organizations. This is why I said I want to jump off topic a bit, because this does not include everything we said before. But about that transparency and that alignment and harmonization between the dynamics of groups, when you start analyzing things from the perspective of strengths weaknesses which are fine everyone has strengths and everyone has weaknesses and they're okay but then opportunity and threat just drives you to competition like why is there a threat like is someone killing you like is your life in danger what is a threat like that other product is going to go to market before us and then like, do, do do do do do do do it.

You know, like, and then like, why? So one day I was sitting and thinking about this And I was thinking about collaboration and co-creation and some buzzwords that somehow emptied for some people. Still meaningful for me. And so I decided to play with this. It's this swat. Like if I had to, not if I had to,

I felt the need to attribute a new meaning. meaning to this. But with its current form, it couldn't exist. So I changed it to Swan and called it Swan reflection instead of SWAT analysis. And so I gave it the title, the Ugly Ducklings turn out to be Swans. And Swan now stands for Strengths, Weaknesses apply and need. so that you have your strengths and then there are ways you apply them and then you have your weaknesses and there are needs you have for them this way it makes me vulnerable and transparent yet at the same time very powerful because i am also confident

about showing my strengths as well. But what it invites is, it invites for collaboration. And I'm telling you, hey, George, you know, I'm really great at facilitation. I can bring a group of people together, get them to communicate amazingly well. But I see that you're really good at, let's say, you're really good at, public speaking. You're really good at organization. You're really good at at creating spaces to promote things in an authentic way, not in a fake way. So what I'm not good at is promoting myself. What I'm not good at is is talking about myself.

What I'm not good at is, you know, creating ways or organized ways or events or things for platforms to spread this message. What I need from you is like, would you be support me in those areas? And it's very transparent. vulnerable and open then there are no threats anymore there are no opportunities that i try to catch and you know scenes there is no competition anymore if you're not up for it you can just say no and that would be okay and i don't i would still not see you as a competition i would see you as a not good fit for my puzzle piece.

So in that regard, we started to, we started to in a way to create, to start creating a guide for people to make their own Swan reflections so that they can share with each other and see whether they're a good fit, whether they can find a better matching partnership in terms of like co-founders, or, I don't know, project collaborators, whatever. And this transparency I find is very much needed. And this happens naturally in some circles, but not necessarily a lot in startup circles. And the reason this, this I said, was a bit off topic,

was because of course in inner inner inspiration that transparency is created through specific tools but i'm also creating this swan reflection with a team which we are called swan collective actually and beautiful bunch of people yeah and together with them like we're creating this tool and i'm also thinking about like integrating into this this design playing because for me everything i do design playing. I actually created design playing and then after a while I started using it to remind myself because sometimes I don't act according to design. Like you know, like I find myself sometimes, you know, stressing over very stupid things and then and then I don't know, I'm, I cannot sleep and I'm like, okay, here like in the dark.

How am I going to solve this and, you know, like being stressful and all these things? Like it doesn't happen very often, but it happens. And then when it happens, I just ask myself, okay, you're just seeing this thing as a problem. Well, let's forget it being a problem for a minute. like what do you need to do you're you have a lot of expectations in this moment from that person this person blah blah blah person what do you need to do like what would bring you joy to do now not to be spiteful against them not to be removing an obstacle, destroying some enemy or whatever.

Just refresh. And what do you need to do? That is in line with what you believe in, which you will enjoy. And then my emotions, do not just go away. I ask this question and then, you know, I feel me.

Let me tell you a story. You know, and then I start to use the answer of that question as a challenge, just like a weight in the gym. Then I start mastering it. And as soon as I start mastering it, it doesn't come very quickly sometimes. Sometimes it happens in a snap second. I find my emotions to change because I'm in a different dream, in a different doing, in a different place, in a different time.

It's almost like changing physical locations when you're tripping. Yeah. It's very much like that because you have changed your chemistry in that moment. I've never heard the concept of virginal thinking before. But I think you laid it out in a way that is beautiful. And if I, if I, let me explain what I think beautiful means. Like, I think beautiful is a way in which you can see something in a way you never have before. Sometimes when I think of beautiful, I think of, there's this term called wabi-sabi that I read about.

And it's coaxing the beautiful out of the ugly. You know, if there's a pot that was broken, but it's an old antique and it has this big, crack right through the golden part of the kingfisher on the pot. Like that's what makes it beautiful. It's like, that's like, oh, look at it. Yeah, look at that crack. I know. How do you think that crack got there?

Well, that's when great Uncle George fell down the stairs. And that's the moment we got the new house, you know. But like, I love it. And I love the aspect of when you talk about the chemistry changing. Like you can You can comprehend time differently It's everything is different

And it's I've never heard the Like I've just heard it explain as a shift before But yeah the virginal thinking The opportunity to see the world anew To see things with fresh eyes Of course that's going to give you a A way to experience life differently Was that what do you think Swan

Was an example of virginal thinking? Was that an example of virginal thinking for you? Yeah, it was. It was. It was. And it was it was exactly that. And I really, I also really love the expression of virginal thinking because it, it embodies these flakiness as well. You know, like it's not, it doesn't have to be very confident. like it it can be scary it can be it can be shaking you know like it can be shy you know it can have all those emotions embedded in it and it's doesn't still change the fact that it's so refreshing and and it is one of the ways that we we create in this world. You mentioned you have one son and one daughter, right?

They are your creations. You and your wife's creations. I'm assuming your wife. Yes. And that is one way to create. That is life. Inversional thinking, that is also life that you create. Because just as you bring electricity into new cells in one, you bring electricity to new cells in virginal thinking as well.

You create new neural pathways. You use your nerves in ways you haven't used before. and it's just you know it gives you goosebumps it gives you so much so much energy it's like

as soon as you find it it's like okay now I'm going to do the whole project yeah you know you know it's that that energy feeling is almost like You know, you know, that feeling that you meet this person,

and then you start liking this person, and that person is really attracted to you. And then one day, like the whole day, you, like, you had done all this work, ran, blah, blah, blah, all these things, and then you come home and you're tired as, I don't know, just like, rhinoceros falling on a shit or something like, you know, like that kind of tired. And then this person calls you and they're like, hi.

Totally, yep. And then they're asking like, would you like to meet? And yeah, of course, like where is my friend? And like you're this, you're this like hair follicle electrocuted and then it's like, you're upright and ready to go. And that is the kind of feeling that it brings. It's very nourishing. And I actually experienced this the most in exercises or,

sessions or whatever you want to call this matter they're called socratic dialogues i don't know if you heard of so poetic dialogues before sure the the tamayas or you read plato then you're reading the socratic dialogues but also there's the socratic method where you answer a question with a question is that similar okay they are similar okay the socratic dialogues um yes there were dialogues. And yes, there's a Socratic method. A Socratic dialogue that I do is actually a method

which combines that asking of question but it doesn't happen one on one. It happens with a group of people. And there are different types of Socratic dialogues. And it's this kind of what I do,

the one that I do is part of the Sokatic Design Academy from Humberto Schwab, my teacher, around this. And it involves a group of people. And it is a philosophical conversation, meaning with the love of wisdom. And it is around a philosophical question. And it is a dialogue because it involves many, and it is, thinking together. And in that environment, I set certain rules.

And within those rules, we experience the art of listening. And within that art of listening, that there is this element of letting go of your thoughts, your unimportant thoughts. I said this specifically this way, your unimportant thoughts, because I believe many have assumed right now that there are important thoughts, which there aren't in a circuatic dialogue. Any thought that you have because of the way the word is structured,

thought is a past tense, is not important. what is important is what you are thinking and whether you have the floor or not and unless you have the floor what you are thinking is not important what is being spoken is important so you need to listen and that practice of letting your thoughts

and thinkings go starts to open up space so when the moment comes when you start practicing this over and over and over again. Even in one, you start experiencing it, but when you practice it over and over again, you just learn how to master original thinking because you lose the expectation from yourself to be prepared to answer. And you allow yourself to think fresh about saying something new. in the moment whatever comes and it doesn't even have to be related with the subject as long as you have listened.

Because we really don't know how that collective wisdom works, but it somehow works. And it has brought humanity to this state. And within that collective wisdom, things tend to pop up. And they tend to pop up from different places. It doesn't have to pop up from me or for that person or for this person. And even if I thought about it, my ego does not have to be that privileged, to be the only one that is going to say that thing. I don't really care who says it.

Even if it's not said, maybe it's not its place. And somehow I started to experience this in life. like I experienced this these situations where I enter spaces and people say what I think and that's just great because I don't exert any energy at all I don't know whether I do or not of course but at least not spoken energy they just tell and then great

sometimes like this this even happens when sometimes I'm just angry and some person just you know curses the words that I would like to say instead of me I'm like thank you thank you for keeping me child friendly and then I'm the polite person yeah but this this starts to happen what is that you think like I've experienced that where you're just in a state of a conversation like that's exactly what I was going to say

like is that some is that applied dreaming together is that a frequency is that just the wisdom of two people having a fundamental communication or maybe that's just AI I don't know maybe it's just a trained AI saying this is probably the most plausible following conversation that can come after this flow of communication and then it blots out that and then you say ah that was what I was going to because I experience that too,

but I have no idea what that is. But I enjoy it a lot. You know, I had this dream once. And it's about Socratic dialogues, actually. And so all over the world, Socratic dialogue becomes so popular that everyone is invested so much in, generous listening.

Like, when I see this, I'm so exhilarated, so happy. And then I take this newspaper. It's in the future, but there are newspapers somehow. And I normally don't read, but in this dream, I read newspapers. And I see this huge head title saying, Socratic new logs are everywhere. And they mispronounce it somehow. And I look at it and my happiness just like goes exponentially more.

Because I feel that people have owned it so much that they find the license to write it in some other way. And it feels so great to see this. You know, that people take something, something that you said, something that you were about to say, something that you were thinking, and say it in their own way,

so that you hear it from a different perspective. And this is what I examine. exactly experienced once you read that AI summarized or whatever with your prompts thing about design playing in me. And that was amazing just because of this. Thank you for making me live my dream. It was wonderful. Maybe we're still in the dream. I know I am.

Yeah, yeah. It brings me joy to think that maybe that's what's happening now. You know, when I look at so much of the change that's happening in the world, and to hear you explain a framework that is new, that to me makes me think of change or rebirth. And I can't help but get that. For me, it's been. this constant signage, wherever I look, of the world becoming anew, whether it's in my life,

the changes that are happening in my family, the changes that are happening in my environment, like I see it all around me. And when I hear the conversation we're having today about having a dream in which other people are saying the things that you think in your mind, that seems to me to be a dreamlike state as well. Like I see these changes happening on something. It brings me joy. So thank you for right back at you for allowing me to continue to live this dream and see the, maybe that's what applied dreaming is.

Maybe that's what we're in the midst of right now. It is. It is because once you shift your way of thinking, you have no choice but to apply. That's true. It doesn't work any other way. because now you are like and it becomes just about

staying there but then staying becomes addictive so that you need to start repeating the inner inspiration the virginal thinking

and then get back yourself into applied dream. Because things change, things shift. I'm not saying whether it's towards good or evil, good or bad. I don't know if I read this somewhere where it was part of a conversation or it was part of some kind of Socratic dialogue or whatever. but I have this definition for evil, by the way, and I would like to say it. Please. Evil is the belief of absolute good.

Why? Absolute good means that there is nothing better. And that in itself is end. it's it becomes destructive by nature everyone does things because they believe they're doing something good but once you believe

what you do is the absolute good that is evil I think of the auroboris and like symbols where the snake is eating its own tail or the yin and the yin and the Yang signal with the Paisi with the spot of chaos and the light, you know, is it necessary? Maybe it's necessary. I don't know if it's necessary or not, but it's just that there is no such thing as good or bad.

It's just that sometimes what we do seems good. We believe it's good and then we realize it's not. sometimes the bad we do turns out to be good and then sometimes it's not it's just a just a time frame perception you know if if we gather all times

whatever infinite timeline there is and just combine everything in one single point, what is good, what is bad? Maybe then we can know. Maybe then we can know. Maybe then we can say,

ah, this was really bad. Because now we know everything. Yeah. But until then, we cannot know. Therefore, yeah, we will perceive. things as good as bad or bad like we be sure will do because it's it's in a way ingrained in our consciousness or maybe not consciousness but conscience like we we face with it we we question and then we find these ethical values and then is it aligned with them not aligned with them but those

ethical values are contradicting each other. So, like, how can we get aligned with them without being, you know, drawing outside of the borders or whatever? And in the end, we just do things. And that's why I also find it very dear to my heart and very intuitively. Like, this is why I intuitively very much connected to design playing, which is attributing meaning. That's all we can do. I attribute the meaning to something that it's good, and then I joyfully learn that it's bad. I attribute a new meaning to it.

This is all I can do. Yeah. When I think of meaning, there's this phrase that I always comes to me. And it's this idea that if a crime fighter fights crime and a firefighter fights fires, what is a freedom fighter fight? You know, it's it helps me understand meaning like in that you, can't control any events, but you and you alone

ascribe the meaning to it. Like, yeah, well, freedom fighter for who? Is that a terrorist? Is that a freedom fighter? You know, or, but then it also speaks to, like, the idea of

the greater good. Sometimes I get, sometimes I think the greater good is evil. Like, who's to say what the greater good is? But quite often you hear this term for the greater good. You know,

who's the person to sign what the greater good is? No, no, no, you know, George, my good is greater than yours. How dare you? That's hilarious. Greater, greater is relativity. In relative, in relation to what? I do.

His ego moments. What is something that you have, are proud of, that you have recently used this framework to investigate? What is I am, what is something I'm proud of, I've used as a framework to investigate? Can you give an example of something within the last couple years that you have used the framework of inner inspiration? And then, you know, the inner inspiration, the virginal thinking, and the applied dreaming too. I know we've talking about Swan, which I think is beautiful, but perhaps just another example.

There are many examples from my client. There are many examples. But I want to give more from the examples that I use on myself because I find them more interesting. And I think it helps to understand. Like when I hear the examples, it helps me envision how I can use it in my life. Okay. So this is an experience with one of my clients. Okay.

We were starting work and we decided to work together for a year and we were trying to figure out a way to price this work because I use a way I like to call contribution balanced participation which is in connection to your own sense of abundance how much you value this journey depends on you. and your sense of value. And this is how I work. And then this person was trying to make sense of it. And then he wanted to offer me some kind of a success fee. And we were having a conversation around it. And his main intention around this success fee was so that I would get responsible. of the project.

And that felt weird for me. Because I wouldn't want to put an extrinsic reward for my responsibility. My responsibility needs to be my intrinsic reward for my mastery, my autonomy, my purpose, and my relatedness. And this was what I said. shifted within myself. But before shifting it, that is virginal thinking, before shifting it, I started to question it. Like, what happens if I accept this success fee in that regard? And then I started creating scenarios to find what excites me because I was excited in the beginning. Like I was like, yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

And then I was like, okay, this excitement is different. This is a different excitement. I don't know what to call it, but this is a different excitement. This excitement is a shortcut word. Hey, excitement, what are? are you? It is the expectation of that extrinsic reward, which allows me to escape from that responsibility if I choose to. It creates an open door for me to let the responsibility go. And then I was like, okay, but then why are you doing this project? If you're not, if you want

that open door for escaping responsibility. That's very meaningless. Why? But there is a reward at the end. No. No. This is not the way I work. This is against contribution balance participation.

This is against design playing. So I went back and I said, I don't want to work this way. I want to change the structure of the success fee. Let's put a fixed price on what we are doing. Let's subtract some part of it. And then let's put that to the end as success fee. So that I am not getting an extra something,

but I'm getting some part of that I would be getting in the end. And even if you don't give me, that part as a success fee. I don't really mind. I would still be doing it. George, can you hear me? I can hear you, but I can't see you. I think I lost a little bit of a connection.

I can hear you fine, but I can't. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. For me, for me also, it looks frozen. Yeah. But you, could you hear what I said previously? I did, yes, about changing the success fee. Yeah, yeah.

So that in a way, well, within the story, of course, you start to see like all three chapters of design playing in application. But I try to expand that initial part as much as possible so that you could see how inner inspiration happens within myself first. Yeah. Because the framework, I built it with my own intuition, but also with my own experience. And this framework, I find it, by the way, I explained it as a very, very natural way of living. it may still not be for everyone. I cannot be sure of that. I cannot be sure of that. I cannot say that I have created

the ultimate universal framework. But it works with many people. I can say that. But initially it worked with me. I think too, having a framework where you can become aware of the reason you left that door open. It sounds to me like it's solid on its foundation.

Because a lot of times that excitement that electrifies us, that reward system that electrifies us, it stops us from thinking rationally. It stops us from completing the circuit, if that makes sense. So you would go from the beginning phase of the storytelling to the inspiration. And then if you short-circuit it right there, then you wouldn't have the applied dreaming. You could make the argument had you taken, had you taken the bonus at the end that you would be more do-d-d-d-d-do-do-do-do. Of course. Let's see if my video will be back. Yes.

I wanted to bring it back for you so that you can also see. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Is it? Oh, okay. Somehow, okay, I will change my video, my camera, because somehow my OBS wanted to reinstall or something like that.

Yeah, it does that sometimes. After talking about all this virginal thinking, shifting, changing, reinstating, you know, having things renew themselves. It's like, oh, my God, I feel very old. I need to renew myself. Death and rebirth. All in one show.

Let's see if I can change my... Yeah. Oh, there you go. There he is. He's back. I'm back. Nice. Very nice.

So we touched on this a little bit, but maybe you could speak a little bit more about how contribution balance participation, the value exchange model align with the principles of design playing. We touched on it with that last example, but maybe you could talk a little bit more about the contribution balanced participation. Like, what does that come from? And what exactly does it mean? Like, how do you define that? It's this understanding of, so the name can sound interesting, contribution, balanced participation. What does it mean?

Because, like, what are we balancing the contribution or the participation? You know? And it's actually within, like I said, like within, within, within, in my previous conversation, you know, one of one of our previous conversation parts where I was mentioning this, this unity of all time being coming together. Within, within that infinite time just converged in itself. in itself onto itself, or collapsed onto itself. If within that time,

that wholeness of time, if our contributions are balanced, then for me all is good. And I believe that in such a frame, contributions are balanced. Whatever contributes in this presence

and in the unity of all presence, they contribute an equal amount or in a balancing amount. And the way I started thinking about this actually stems from the ideal of design playing where the applied dreaming state is achieved. And for myself, the applied dreaming state in itself is a flying design plane. And if I'm living my dream, why is money involved?

I mean, like, so, and me living my dream is worth infinite. I mean, like, for me. Me living my dream, I don't know how much it is worth for anyone else. And I cannot know because I am not actually doing this for them. I am doing this for my dream. And it is a way for me to share my gift. My applied dreaming state is my abundant gift sharing state. And if I'm abundantly sharing my gift, I started thinking like, okay,

I'm having these conversations with people. And just in any meeting, I'm using design play, applying design play, using the framework, asking questions, or diving deep, you know, sharing things, whatever. Okay, then my, every interaction, someone needs to pay me. Like, that's like, that's like,

like, I mean, that's going to work, like. So, instead, I decided not to attribute any value to any of my interactions from my perspective. And decided that I will be contributing and gifting to my fullest because gifting it, is part of living my dream, I will not put constraints of myself just because I am not paid, just because that environment doesn't have such and such and such. And that just opens me up.

And when I'm open, I will not be hesitant to ask for contribution balance participation. And if I'm asking contribution balance participation, it creates a contribution balance. And we are both participating and we are both contributing. You know, there have been people paying me just because I shared with them contribution balance participation. There was a text of it that I wrote. right and i'm like okay it works then i'll use this and the way it works is like i said with your sense of

abundance and in a very summarized way like with your sense of abundance how much do you value the journey that you take with me and it is all also connected with what your expectation out of yourself to achieve through this journey. And this question is also designed in a way to already awaken that dream within. Because it invites you to, okay, what am I going to get out of this? but it's not just I am going to get it from that person what am I going to give myself through this

and then if I'm giving myself this much how am I going to give that person how much I'm going to give that person again contribution balanced participation within the self within the group dynamic in every parts and for me it's the same

what am I intending to give myself through this because I cannot stay the same it's it wouldn't be truthful if I said I would be staying the same after each session or after

any work that I do but it also needs to be a conscious entering. So what am I giving myself and what am I giving here? After contribution balance participation, I actually met with another concept

which I haven't really integrated into contribution balance participation yet. Maybe you've heard of it, but it's called eight forms of currency. I've never heard of it. You definitely need to check it out. Yeah.

It's It's a concept based on these value-based system, which is not limited to fiat money or financial value. It just counts financial value as one type of value. There is financial, material value, things you own your possessions, and you can get richer in material value. By sharing and owning like very few things and sharing what you own. This way you get richer. There's living value, things that you grow, plants, animals, whatnot. And the more you take care of land, the more you get rich.

There is intellectual, what you know. And then you can get richer by learning and teaching. There is cultural, which is where you've been. It's about being grounded and traveling. Like being aware of where you are. Acknowledging, noticing, ah, this is something new. This is something different, being aware of your life. surroundings and then there is social who you know and you can get rich by being kind to

people having deeper connections and relationships with people and where am I six right what else was there financial material living intellectual cultural, social, experiential. There is experiential, which is about the risks you take. And the more risks you take, the more experienced you get. And that's how you get richer. And then the final one is spiritual. I wanted to say this to last, because it's mostly the,

the one that will be more most controversial because I really loved how they defined it. I don't know who did this, by the way. I cannot reference this to anything, but if you search it, you may find it. Yeah. And I wanted to say this to last because the way they defined it, I found it to be very practical. spiritual currency. And so it's measured by what you believe in, but you get rich in your spiritual currency

by practicing good human values. So it's not about your meditation, it's not about your yoga, it's not about your prayer. It's not specified in these things. It's just about practicing good human values, whatever they mean. In that regard, I really like this one. Because just by practicing it, you can be a very good example, a teacher, a sharer, a gifted in that regard. And the way this is interesting.

interesting for me is it's just that when I think about contribution balance participation, it does not necessarily have to be financial contribution. It's not on my part, but it doesn't have to be for the person who's getting the service. And there have been people offering me other things. They've offered to pay on top of share. my services on social media or whatever, you know, all these different ways of paying. They were already coming up with this. I was not aware that it was this.

But I have not consciously integrated it into contribution balance participation. So right now I still use it as a financial means. So it is still limited to that. But I really love this concept of eight forms of currency because it enriches us to a level of understanding to balance life in a way like an equalizer. Like really old equalizers, you know, it's high stereo like, you know, high-fi stereos and, you know, like you just push them. like the mids are low, the highs are high, and the lows are high, and then it creates a different sound. But like if you balance them all out, it's a very neutral state. I think additionally, it's like finding a storehouse of value that you didn't even know you had.

Whoa, I didn't know I was, you know, it's boom, already you see yourself as rich in these categories you didn't know you had is that's pretty rewarding. I have a lot of money, but I don't have any friends. I have a lot of friends, but I don't have any money. Right. You know, and I, it is actually important to balance yourself things because they're all, they all represent almost like a different dimension of life.

Mm-hmm. Or different dimension in life. And, you know, if you're, You know, maybe they represent chakras, but I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It's very interesting to look at life through that perspective, right? And, yeah.

I think you can learn a lot about relationships by analyzing those particular eight forms. It might be a good, you can almost get a good look at, what's important to you or get a good look at how you've been acting or a scorecard or how you see the world or how you treat yourself, you know, in some ways you can look at those eight different modalities and see it as a way, as a path that you've traveled on or how do you change the path moving forward? Just just, you know, by changing a few of them, like, oh, what if I did this sort of maneuver here, you know? It's a pretty good understanding and I love it. I can't wait to look up more about it.

It's like that experiential part, for example, how much risk are you taking? Are you aware of your risks first, but how much risk are you taking? How much leaves of faith you take it? And it puts a lot of perspective into what kind of richness you have in terms of experiential. And in some way, they're all connected, I would think.

They are, of course. They are. But they support one another. They support one another. They cannot replace. I don't think they can replace one another. They can be there to tolerate the rest

or some for example maybe maybe like I said I have I have a lot of friends and then I don't have any money but I don't need money because my friends provide a lot of things for me

and then I actually have everything that I need therefore I don't need money but it's still I think a tolerance of the eight forms of currency it is not a balance state

it is a tolerance that the eight forms are providing you so that you have some time like it's the it's like the compassion of mother nature that is really well said maybe

maybe a government could get together and create a social credit score out of these eight models and then pay you accordingly and then you know and then you know what would happen like government would just be an agreement with

going into your like Facebook and Instagram friends and like, okay, so you have one million followers. Wow. We're very rich in terms of your social. Then how many likes are you getting? Well, they know the greater good, so, you know. They're definitely greater at something. Yeah.

I think it's mesmerizing. think that I love it. I love the idea of this framework. And it's the more that I think about it, it's kind of like the more you shine your light in the darkness, the more you realize you're surrounded by darkness. You know, there's so much more to investigate. And it's, I think that that comes with having a new way of seeing the world. I, I'm fascinated by design play, just in the conversation that we've had so far. And what, what has come? come out of this conversation from the beginning is it's been very rewarding and fruitful and food for thought like i i've gotten two pages of notes already to think about what was it like

for you like it seems to me that when you when i know from experience when i find myself on an insight it usually creates and then i act on that insight i can see profound change in my life is that something that happened to you when you decided when you came upon this insight, like maybe you could talk about how did this come to be in your life? Like how do you how did you get to this? It sometimes it seems where you stumble is where you find the

gold. Did you stumble before you found the gold of design play? I cannot say from an objective perspective but my life has been easy and easy in regards to

how I perceive it. So there have been ups and downs, of course, but those ups and downs always had a way of providing me the path that is always for, I don't know, my growth in a compassionate way. So it was not harsh for me. And this has been like that since my childhood. And I was always curious, very curious. And I was always in a very deeper conversation with myself. And I think, like, one of the foundations of inner inspiration, at least just that chapter.

came when I was child six years old. And it was from this one question that I asked myself, which is, bear with me, it's a long question. Yeah, please. There's a scenario to it. So the scenario is this. I'm a child, six years old. If a technologically advanced alien race comes,

and grabs me, it docks me while I'm sleeping in such a way without making me realize it. Takes my body into their ship, connects me into a device, and then within that device, I am fully sensing whatever that device is directing me from the replica they left instead of me. So I am feeling whatever that replica is sensing and feeling and seeing whatever, all five senses. As soon as I'm awake, I see that replica's vision or whatever. How can I know that I am there in the ship

and that replica is not me, that my body is there and not there. How can I know if all I'm sensing and feeling is that replica's sensations? Because in my body, I don't feel the machine that I'm connected to. I feel the clothes that that replica is wearing. How can I know? And that question just made me go deep. and deeper and deeper within myself to find a way to know that I am beyond my physical body that I can somehow know myself better than any any robotic entity or whatever that I can be

connected to so that I can know my existence is not there and here I still don't know the answer exactly. But just that curiosity taking me into that discovery journey, I think is the foundation of inner inspiration. But me transforming this into a methodology is a different story. Or a framework is a different story. It comes with me. So, okay. So I used to work in services.

design. And this bit, I may need to explain what is service design. Service design is like, so we're using a lot of services like these stream yard is a service. Spotify is a service. These are like subscription services, but these are services. Like Carpenter is a service. These are all services. Airbnb is a service. All these services can be these services. designed by creating scenarios for how their customers will be interacting, will be communicating with these services. It can involve digital interfaces. It can involve physical interfaces.

It can involve human interfaces. So customer representatives, technologies. marketing material, advertisement, all these different parts that makes up a whole service because the service starts from its ads, it's marketing, it's branding, its whole thing creates the service.

And I used to design services. It wasn't me actually designing it, but it was me gathering all. these different pieces of the puzzle people from these pieces from technology from marketing from customer representatives custom call centers or whatever you know all these different parts together and create environments for them to to map out the most meaningful journey for a customer a customer to experience. And working in these

environments, I started to realize how people's personal experiences shaped these services. There are some services that do not allow you very easily

to just exit. To just cancel your subscription. And then I have seen people's fear of abandonment in making these types of decisions. They were trying to hold on to people. But what if they leave us? If we don't allow them to leave, then they will find a way to love. And then this I started to find very strange, but it was the truth.

This was the way that people were designing these things. And even though we were talking about, you know, there's this methodology, another design methodology, which is called design thinking, which is based on problem solving. and then it states to discover first what the problem is, identify it. And then, you know, we would be researching a lot about the customers, the users, the people, basically. And then present this data to all these people in a meaningful way, let's say, in a timely manner. And then they would look at this data. They would comprehend or understand or dream or whatever, something through this data, information, say, or story.

And then they would create something else. One part of being, of it being that those personal experiences, the other part is people, really lacked the compassion and the courage to think from scratch. It was mainly what the benchmarks would say, a benchmark meaning these other services are doing these things. Oh, okay, then we can do this from here, that from there, and this, and then we have a great service. Why don't you just create something new and just copy and paste?

That is valuable. I'm not saying that's not valuable, but it was always trying to copy and paste. Not trying to think from scratch. And even when they believed that they were creating something new, I started to see a lot of patterns that they were repeating the same old, same old. And then I started to focus more on humans, rather than. than users, customers, employees, teams, executives, whatever, humans. And I was already interested in it, but for me, it came very interestingly that because of the way I was asking people questions, they referred me to have this, I was working in a corporation at the time, and they referred me to have this training about consultancy, that they believe that I could be a consultant.

So they sent me to this training. And in that training, what I was more interested in was a message coming from a friend of mine. And in this message, they were telling me that in our conversations, in our friends' friend conversations, that they were very much impressed and grateful for me to join their journey in their emotional state in their mind, not interfering, but observing together with them, and showing compassion even at points they cannot show it to themselves without changing. without forcing. And I was aware of this ability of mind, that I was interested in doing this with people

to go into their minds and to, you know, to walk together with them without the intention of bringing my mind into theirs, without injecting anything there. It's just, I am curious, take me into that. just like you are doing right now. And so I showed this message to the course trainer and told them, I want this to be my job. Can you tell me about consultancy from this perspective?

Because I was not really interested in corporate consultation in terms of analysis and, you know, all these. whatever things. And then they were like really excited and then started talking about that perspective of it. And then I was very excited and that was a spark there. I got it. Okay, I'll keep this. And then I was very much interested in in humans like I said, but I got really much interested also in emotions. So there was this one time where at the company they would be sending me to Ukraine for a keynote speech. And in that keynote speech, I decided to talk about humans and emotions.

They said, like, as long as you say it's service design, it's okay. I said, okay. I will call it service design. And at the end of this conversation, at the end of this keynote speech about like humans and emotions and accepting humans as a holistic being rather than these employees, users, whatever, and all these things. And talking about big data, talking about AI and whatnot,

all these things. And I was realizing that I was touching to a point where many need. Because a lot of people after my keynote speech wanted to hug me. I love big hugs. So I was okay with it. And so that was something that I took for myself. Okay. I'm somewhere on the white path here.

I was seeing it. But there was some kind of an inspiration element that I needed. And somehow on LinkedIn, I found this person and I sent them a message saying, I need inspiration. we beat. And they said yes. We met. They mentioned about

So quadratic design and this academy in Spain. So we went together. And that's when I learned Swarctic dialogue, sororadic design, and, you know, narrative shifting,

all these new tools and ways and philosophy as a practical tool and mastering thinking in that regard. And I felt very close to it. I realized that it has been the unmethodical tool I was using as a child, as a teenager, you know, asking all these questions to people, you know, using all these things without knowing.

and it fell right into its place. And I was trying to merge it. And at the time, I was teaching at the university as well. So I started using these tools at the university with my students. And it was an amazing experience because, you know, I told the students that I will not be grading them, that they will be grading themselves with the criteria that they would be coming up with.

but we did a lot of sequatic dialogues. And I actually met one of my students just three days ago. And he was still telling me after what six, no, seven, yeah, seven years. After seven years, he was still telling me, like, those Socratic dialogues were really good. I am now understanding their value. Like, after seven years. And there were three people. who failed themselves from the class, giving themselves failing grades,

from the criteria that they created. And, like, within that experience, like, the teachers and the faculty was also amazed in the sense that whatever you're doing, like, these children have started to collaborate, like, full force. Like, I don't know what you're doing, but this is crazy. Like, keep doing what you're doing. And I'm like, you know, I just told them that I will not be grading them. But like, what about exams?

I'm like, yeah, they will be handing in their exams with their grades as well. So I started trying these things and started seeing results. But what was interesting was I was seeing results more. in teenagers and younger part of the society let's say because I also started to mentor startups at the time I was already doing business acceleration programs blah blah blah in in my in the company that I was an organization that I was working in but and I started mentoring these startups these young startups and I started seeing impact there as well, using these tools. Then something clicked.

And I wanted to do more of this. So I left the company because at the time, I was continuously rewriting my position there, like sending HR like, okay, this is what I will be doing from now on. And then, you know, they will be changing. But after a while, I saw, that that place is not going to grow in the same direction that I needed to grow.

So I left that place. And after leaving that place with the same person that I mentioned getting the inspiration from, getting the training together of Suqaric Design together in Spain. with we started to do these new kinds of facilitations with new methods combining all these design methods together and then at one point we were having a conversation and we said you know what we should focus on children so we decided to bring children teenagers and adults together in the same room using design methodologies that we know of and then apply them so that adults can learn from children new ways of thinking so that they can use their resources to bring change to the

world that would be good for the children but also that the children game ball and in that journey was probably my biggest struggle because i have never worked with children before i am good with children i can play with them well i play my own games and they play their own games and sometimes we play our games but in that regard uh the toughest part was working with children because I didn't know that was that was probably the one of the highest scares of my life working with children because I didn't know I wouldn't say it was that big of a fear but there was fear I could sense it and and it came real in a way in one of the one of the play shops I did so I think it was yeah probably the

first one or something yeah so the topic was new learning experience of the future so we did the play shop there are children there are adults most of them parents of the children but they're also business people so so this was a prototype that we were doing so we were testing in a way so we decided for this time to to separate the children from adults to see how different they would be creating so and after separating them we gave them the task to create these new learning experiences like there there there were things that we did before but I'm not going to bore you with those details but anyway so after we separated there were

this group of children which were just doing something that I don't know whether it was related to what we were talking about or not they were just doing things And I'm like looking at them, I feel the urge to, you know, control, guide them in the right direction, whatever that means in that regard. But in that context. And so I keep telling myself, okay, they're not doing their work. They're not focusing on this work. This is at least you assume that way. So just focus on learning from them.

This is what the ideal is here. To learn from children. If these adults are learning from children, you learn from children. Okay, I will be learning from children. Cool. If I am learning from children, that means what they are doing is the right thing. Okay. Trust that they are doing the right thing.

This is my inner conversation with myself. And then I said, okay, I will trust. Then I'm looking at them and they're going crazy, you know, like throwing cardboard around. And then I'm like, okay. Okay. They are doing the right thing. You will be learning from them.

Then we said, okay. time over like, okay, everyone just gather and we'll be presenting. All the other three groups have presented. They have some great things and whatnot. And then we come to this group, this chaotic whatever group. By the way, like with each group, I'm asking them, like at the end. So what is this story that you have created, have, to do with a new learning experience.

And then they answer it in a very short way at the end after telling their or reenacting their theatrical show. So this group, they created a setup all of a sudden. They became organized. And then all that chaos, turned into a very organized, very neat, very understandable, like actually very comprehensive story of a mother, taking their son, sorry, their daughter to the school.

But while taking the daughter to the school, they have an accident, they crash with the car, the ambulance comes they take the mother away from the child they separate them then the child goes to the hospital to see

their mother they don't show her the mother they get scared the mother is harmed but then she gets well and then you know they hug and they're and this is the story they tell

so I ask what does this have to do with new learning experience and they say you know in real life nobody teaches us to have accidents wow and i'm like okay how did you come up with this like what did you do in that? Like in that, what was that, like, what, what, what was that chaos? And like, all that time I was watching them. I was like, recording what they were doing because I was in learning mode. No, like, not literally recording, but like recording in my own memory, because I was in learning mode. But then as soon as I did this, I kept rewinding and repeating in my mind.

like what happened there what happened there what happened there like what was that thing like how did they come up with this and then i realized that you know they were like all that shouting all that thing all that chaos like all every single one of them that was part of that group that was part of that was just doing something while shouting at each other about what they have been finding, finding. You know, like, I let's discover this, you know, let's do this. And then, you know, I want to do this. And the other one is doing this.

And then somehow all of their personal joys harmonize. And they create that. And this made me think a lot about Eastern philosophy, how an individual's existence is to serve the society, is serve collective. And just by awakening that joy of the individual, you start to harmonize with it. that chaos and then you start creating those stories and this became very interesting and within that time frame i started to meet with people from different disciplines shamans also uh different

medicines South of South American medicines different tribe medicines different meditation techniques different breathing techniques different healing techniques and in all of those things all my intention was to find the right tools because none of the design tools aside from Suqaic design was serving me enough to capture that transformation of chaos into harmony that the children was, was, was, has generated that day and turn it into a methodology, design methods were not enough. And that was what I needed for, for adults somehow. Like, get people into that.

chaotic state in a trusting safe environment where they can create with the unreckoning force of their own nature facing their you know most artful state with all their emotions and so i was like you know looking at different dance rituals all these like i stumbled into all these different things looking for answers, you know, looking at peyote rituals, looking at ayahuasca rituals, you know, all these different rituals and all these different ways of combo rituals, you know, like all these different things. And other design methods, other experiences, my own experiences, I was really looking back at my past and, you know, remembering my child. and what I was like and what I did with myself.

And then this opened up new opportunities. Then I just started to discover new meditation methods from my within and new breathing techniques from myself. And, you know, I started to incorporate these things and then started to realize a pattern as I applied it, applied it over and over and over again. I started to see this structure shaping because initially it was just six stages rather than three chapters and six stages. It was just join, explore, dream design, make show. And then the closing cycle is to celebrate.

And those six stages were the backbones of it, of the whole framework. But then as I was applying those six stages. stages, I realized, okay, wait, inner inspiration is something else than virginal thinking. If I push people to virginal thinking immediately, some crack. Okay, with adults, let's take our time. Not everyone is there. Not everyone is ready to be there. Not everyone wants to be there.

Just take our time. So let's separate these two. Apply dreaming. Let's put it at the end. And let's keep it a state of aspiration first. Because again, not everybody wants to be there. Not everybody is there. Not everybody can be there yet.

We'll be there. Whatever. So in its essence, my respect for that friend of mine, walking together in their mind, showing compassion, needed to be here. Needed to be how this was structured. So it needed to have those chapters. it was not going to be one journey. Right. So this was how the framework came to be.

I love it. That's an amazing story, and it really maps out the, not only, I love origin stories, and I love to see how the story unwinds itself. And I think that, I always get like little goosebumps when I get to see the story played out like that.

So I appreciate you to having the candor to tell exactly how it unfolded that way. And I think it additionally, I think it helps people understand if they want to go through that journey to understand the way in which the journey was discovered. It's like getting to see who discovered the path. You know, and then, oh, yeah, this is the part where there's a yellow ribbon over here, you know, so I should, however you, whatever you, whatever you put in your mind to identify the path and the marker from chapter to chapter or from stage to stage, each individual probably has their own unique way of doing it. But I think it's an imperative part of learning a new system is understanding, understanding the story behind it. I think it's wonderful. And I can't tell you how much this conversation has exceeded what I thought it would.

I wasn't sure what to expect coming into this conversation. But this is wonderful. And we've got like three, almost three and a half hours in it. And I feel like we've just kind of scratched the surface of it. You know, it's, it feels like there's still. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think we could probably go longer.

I got another podcast coming up, but we should come back and have more cups of tea and maybe bring in someone else to help out, you know, I think the more people, the greater the potential can be to, to flesh out more understanding. But I really thoroughly enjoyed this on a level that's difficult to describe, man. I really appreciate it. I'm thankful for your time. But before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up?

And what are you excited about? People can find me, I guess, in the easiest way from Instagram. Okay. Like, just Mayor Ben Ezra, because there you'll have all my links and everything. and you can reach whatever if you want to read anything. And then you can just hit me up and arrange a meeting. We can meet. It's all open for everyone with CBP.

So you will read about it there as well. And what's coming up? Openly nothing. Because I don't do open organizations, open events. I don't like forcing. people to scarcity of time. Like, okay, the 12th is coming. Come on. No more tickets.

And, you know, like, buy your tickets now. Buy now. Get one free. And they're like, right. I don't like that. Like, okay, if you want to do your Socratic Dialogue organization, just let me know and organize it. And I'll do it. Like I said, I don't, I don't enjoy doing organizational stuff.

so I don't do those stuff. And if someone wants to do it, I'll be there. And so nothing is coming up in that regard. And what I'm excited about is definitely what we haven't talked about, which is this new communal living project that I'm doing, which involves eight forms of currency, and which involves a self-sustaining economy for living, in harmony within nature, but it's a seven-year-long project.

So let's see how it goes. I'm more excited about the journey than the destination, but the destination is definitely something that I would really want to have in this world. It sounds fascinating. Maybe you can come back and we could talk about that. I would really love that. Me too. As soon as you asked, like, I started thinking about what I could talk about,

and I went into that space, and I started walking in that living spend. Okay. Yeah. I would be amazing. Yeah. Thank you, George. Like, I, you said it great. I didn't know what I would be expecting out of this conversation.

And I, as soon as we started, I really loved you. energy with with your jumping in your in your chair and you know like with your laugh and and and your sudden moves and then just very calm steady listening poses and very attentive and i know you are listening with your heart that's your your eyes is continuously shining while you're listening and And it's your genuine interest. I really love that. Thank you so much for that. I appreciate the kind of words.

It's really rewarding to get to hear things I've never heard of before. And I know it is for the audience, too. I feel really thankful to get to be in the position I'm in, man. So this is awesome. I really, and this is more cups of tea, my friend. More cups of tea in the near future. Ladies and gentlemen, get ready for more because these are the conversations that can change the way you see the world. These are the conversations that you didn't need to know you had to hear.

That makes sense at all. I love them. And I'm really thankful. And hang on briefly afterwards. I'm going to talk to you briefly afterwards. But ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got for today. I hope you enjoy your day. I hope you realize that right around the corner over there is a little miracle waiting to happen to you.

And the world loves you and it conspires to help you if you're willing to have the courage to conspire. with it. So ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got. Aloha.