TrueLife - Great Debates # 3

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

Good trips, Bad trips, booze, & brawls, a wide range of topics in todays mens group! https://benjamincgeorge.com/ https://www.kevinholt.me/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/pranga003 https://www.experienceintegration.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-hawk-92b37121b

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Back to the True Life podcast

We're here on Sunday. We've got a few different people In the house over here. We've got all the usual suspects. I think I'll start over here with Ben to introduce himself and then I'll just move around the horn. Ben, can introduce yourself for some people who may not know who you might be? All right.

I'm Benjamin C. George, Benjamin C. George.com, author of No Absolutes. Worked on a Taylor Libre Project and excited for another Sunday chat. Paul, what do you got going on over there, buddy? Not a whole heck of a lot there, George. I'd expect that to laugh. I'm going to craft myself a real introduction. That might be it right there, man. You can just have the one-line tag.

Ranga. Oh, Ranga, what's up, buddy? What is the word on the street from where you're at? What's going on over there? Who are you? What do you got? Can you hear me? Like a whistle.

Perfect. So I found out what I need to say is the part what I'm currently doing is exploring altered states of consciousness. So how my reality is changing and it's very curious on trying to understand that part, our interaction with the environment rather than take it for as it is or how we see it, right? Yeah. Absolutely, man. I think it's, I think more people should try to explore their different kinds of consciousness

and figure out where they fit in and where they like to be. And the more you explore your own conscience, the more you can be comfortable with it and be comfortable around other people, I think. Definitely. Nice. Well, gentlemen, I was curious. I was trying to think of maybe some interesting topics that we could go by today. And what I came up on is I was rereading some of the Unabomers Manifesto.

And I realized how much I agree with him on so much. And I'm just curious what you guys take is I want to, I want to, want to read you this first part right here and see what you guys think only the collapse of modern technological civilization can avert disaster what do you think about that ben i would have to disagree that's the first thought that rolls into my head i mean how well how far back do you take modern technical civilization is it the industrial revolution is it the invention of the plow is it the you know where do you where do you draw that line for one but for two I I don't think it's the entire you know you don't you don't throw away everything if

you have some good stuff and some bad stuff I think there's certainly you know there's certainly a picture to look at where yeah you could say that if we just went back to everybody kind of farming their own land and living you know a very kind of of family-oriented, community-oriented lifestyle, then, you know, it would be better for everybody, better for the planet, better for, you know, for lower, you know, socioeconomic people and all these other things. But the reality is that we need those supply chains. We need those trade routes. We need those resources. We need those things in order for us to continue to kind of evolve as a people. Now, that's not to say that we should be full blown into just kind of

destroying everything to get what we want. There has to be balanced just like there has to be balanced in all things. But just off the top of my head, I would disagree with that kind of feminine. Well, I think you made some really good points and it speaks volumes of your intelligence, but let me tell you why you're wrong. Okay. Let's say, here we go. So I think that I can't totally disagree with you.

I think that when we look at the plow, maybe we should have a starting point where technology has gone or began to go in the wrong direction and maybe we should define what disaster is. On the topic of disaster, I mean, it seems to me that technology is at the very foundation of all our wars.

It seems to me that the technological progress is the carrot that everybody is chasing that makes everyone else want to stab everyone in the back. And you could almost say it's a manifestation of greed or a heightened sense of, you know, just this heightened sense of wanting or it's almost like a lust. You know, it's tapping into this idea of lust. And I don't see, you know, if you look at the, if we can agree that the world, History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And then we can also agree that the last few world wars have been ended by more dangerous weapons.

Then we must also agree that there'll be another war with even a more dangerous weapon. Wouldn't that back up the point that the modern technology is going to cause the next disaster? I mean, certainly, you know, when you take it in that context, I would agree with you. there's other aspects that too though is we're not operating as one global entity for one so you know that's where kind of you know the idea of resources supply change trade and all of this kind of lends itself to us not shooting each other and so if you remove that technological progress you remove all of those supply change and remove all of that kind of imperative for people not to shoot each other because we do want the silk from

Egypt, or the cotton from Egypt. We want the, you know, we want the resources. We want the rare earth elements to make magnets so we can travel. And we do want these things because if we don't, now all of a sudden, yeah, we could decide that we're just going to go, you know, we're going to be Luddites. But then the other people on the planet might decide something entirely different. And then our way of life becomes very much in jeopardy, very fast. I agree. Ranga, as a white Christian nationalist, what do you think? George's fire in today, folks.

I've been drinking a little bit. I've been drinking a little bit. Nice. I have a question for you. What's the Unibomber manifesto? I do not. I don't know what's. It's a good question.

I should have started with that. I believe it was in the, was it the 90s? In the 90s, there was an individual name Theodore Kaczynski and he was actually went to Harvard as a mathematician. I think he went there like at the age of 14 he started. I also think that he was in the, the MK Ultra and also the,

wasn't there like a Harvard LSD program where they tested LSD? that the that was the mk a ultra that was the mk ultra that was related to it it was related to that and so he here's this mathematician with all this promise probably out an IQ over 200 just a just one of these guys that was so smart they were they were weird right and so he he moves out i'm sorry joey go ahead paul you sound like this dust cover i've read it a lot of times and so um he moves out after after his MK alter and after going to Harvard and probably a lot of indoctrination and being around a lot of people, he has this idea in his head that, hey, we as a species are going the wrong path.

We are doing things wrong. We're going to explode. And the reason is, is this idea of technology. And this technology splits people. And he's like, you can look in the past and draw parallels to it. And so he took it upon himself to try to bring down technology from a one-man band. And he moved out into the woods, built a little shack, and started sending envelopes full of explosive powder to senators. And I think he got through to a couple of them.

And then he was turned in by his brother, who was probably really jealous of him because he wasn't as smart as him. And then he got turned and went to prison. So, yeah, it's pretty crazy. And then he wrote from prison the Unabomber Manifesto. And in that book, he wrote down all the things that he thought about technology, all his ideas of, about mathematical functions and how they fit into the world and why his ideas are right and stuff like that. I'll send you a copy.

I have a copy. I'll send it to you. I love the backstory. And what was your question following that? My question was, what do you see the future of technology as being something that's ultimately going to destroy us? I don't think so.

Well, why not? In a way, I think lots of the creation of AI from our projection, like internal projection of how we want things. So in some way, they would still be limited until they become super intelligent. And even at that point, it would come to a, you know, significant difference in, let's say, emotional intelligence, right? I think they wouldn't want to destroy. But aren't they programmed?

Isn't the, all the computers we have. are programmed by people. And if you look at the highest level, like, what are we, we're programming drones to run in packs to kill people. We're programming,

spot the robot dog to put a big cannon on his back and just go kill people. And when you do that, like you can see the same pattern in big corporations, how they give their employees a number so they can dehumanize them.

And we know that dehumanization is the first thing you do to your enemy. So if computers are already dehumanizing us, aren't we in fact becoming the enemy to them? But I feel like those examples are a smaller percentage of their actual applications and implications in this world. So, yeah, it's having a balance, right? They can be, it's a tool. Everything around us is a tool and it's up to how we use it.

And more people are, as you said, driven by greed and the lust for power. And both of it is related to money. so all the economical events that happen, right, are driven by these people. So for that, if they get AI as the new tool, of course they're going to use it. But it's on the past two site, we are using it to, yeah, in a lot of areas. Well, in another perspective, too, is we wouldn't be having this conversation about technology. That's a good point. We're so separated by, you know, thousands of bios, collect.

that we wouldn't be able to have this meeting in mind, which I find personally important. So, you know, I think the absolute statement that technology will destroy us, I have to disagree with. And I don't think I'm wrong. So people, this communication that we have is amazing. But don't the people that own the platform

have the ultimate authority just to censor us? Like we could just be, clearly we're talking to four of us right now, which is better than me talking to myself or anybody else talking to themselves. But, you know, ultimately, if we look at what happened during the elections, we saw, you know, whether it's Hunter Biden's laptop being squashed or it's, you know, pick your censorship and pick your political party. But it seems like that is the foundation for, or they have the skeleton key to shut everything off. In one sense, yeah, but in order to really shut off communication, they would truly have to shut off the internet. I mean, if we really wanted to communicate now, being able to broadcast, that's a very different story. But I could set up an entirely private webborder for all of us to do this on my own server. Now, if they shut off my internet connection, I got a problem.

So the only way, if you continue to extrapolate, you know, well, then what would I do next? Well, now I'm going to go to my friend's house, or now I'm going to go to an internet cafe. Now we're going to meet on IRC. You know, there's all these protocols on the internet because the internet was built on communication. So in order to really shut down that communication, they would have to truly shut down the internet. Or, you know, you have to, in essence, build something like a great China firewall for every single individual nation, which, you know, people are talking about. So there is, you know, it's a multifacisting. of the thing. I don't think that we can, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have this conversation.

We wouldn't have this progress. We wouldn't be able to have this society. We wouldn't be able to, you know, have the comfort for our kids. I mean, imagine back in the day when it was expected that at least half your kids were going to be dead by the age of mind. And that's why, one of the reasons that contributed to people having so many kids, you know, our advancements in technology allowed us to move away from that. Now, that's not to say that our moves have been the best moves that we could make. And I think, you know, hindsight's obviously 2020. And so that leads us to today.

But at the overall premise of, is technology going to destroy us? I don't think so. I think technology is almost an innate human, I don't know how to, I want to finish that. an innate human kind of expedition, exploration. You know, we're always trying, you know, we're built. Our brains are pattern recognition machines. We're built to recognize patterns and decode those patterns. That inevitably leads to the advancements of tools in technology.

Do you see, do you think that maybe, what if we flipped it and said that technology is the great equalizer? It could be. It could be either, you think. You know, I would call that a double-edged sword, right? Obviously, you cited the war part of it. But at the same time, we do have those other aspects to it as well. I think it comes down to us and how we decide to utilize this technology. You know, for instance, us having these conversations,

as opposed to going out there and having some propaganda campaign and, you know, hurrah, syshtun-ba, whatever side of the fence I want to find myself on. Nice. Paul, we were pretty quiet over there. What do you think, buddy? I don't know. What are we talking about? The Unabomber.

Technology. And are these, is technology a force for the world that is doing more good than harm? I don't know. You know, I was thinking about your quote from the Unabomber. Okay. It sounds like something that somebody would say who builds bombs, puts them in the in order to blow people up. But as far as, you know, what's technology doing for us?

You know, I mean, there's always been divides in people. There's been always technology that's done it. You know, or the advancements in civilization, you know, it's always been about, like, to me, it's always been about, like, self-protection. Whether it's, you know, your family or the tribe that you belong to and being apprehensive and cautious about, you know, foreigners and things that don't, you know, talk like you. look like you, behave like you.

And so, you know, that's kind of like, to me, the original form of, you know, get the fuck out of here, really. And then we've used technologies in order to protect ourselves, you know, better. Oh, and then as other societies advanced, then we've had to make advancements too. When I say we, I mean, the collective being bound like any sort of, like, you know, living in the United States to spend the history of people. Will it ultimately lead to our demise?

I mean, I don't know, but it sounds pretty pessimistic. You know, I don't know. Yeah, it makes me, maybe it's, it seems to me that the long-term consequences for society are not subject to human control. You know, like the cats out of the bag when it comes to nuclear weapons. and that's what I mean when I when I when I talk about the and I think that's what the Unabomber was trying to get across when he talked about technology is going to be the downfall this idea that you know both both sides of the aisle whether it's you know Sunni or Shia Republican or Democrat you know they when they seize the power of the state be it the IRS or the military industrial complex they wield it as a weapon in their favor and then the next time somebody else gets in power, then they wield it the other way. But how long can you wield that weapon before you do real damage to the other side? Well, irreparable harm, right?

Thank you. Well put. Yeah. And I think from, you know, we do stand at that precipice. And, you know, I think a lot of the quotes from the people who worked on the Manhattan project kind of they realized what they had done too. They understood that, you know, the amount of power can. contained by one, you know, to one nation at that point, but, you know, it could even get very much smaller.

And we're seeing that these days, where there is a threat of people acquiring old nuclear weapons from, you know, fallen Soviet states and whatnot. And so there is, you know, a precipice when it comes to how we wage war. And I think, but there also is another side of that equation, which is what I was referencing earlier is that, you know, we have come to grow into a global society despite that. Right. Now, we're also, that's also fracturing at the seams right now. So, you know, that's not necessarily a great argument per se.

But I think within that chaos, I think we move on to the next iteration of this human experiment. Well, you know, I mean, going back to what you said, you know, like we're standing at a precipice. I'm just Churchill, you know, that one with time standing there as the Nazis were taking over Europe that said the same thing. We're standing at a precipice. It's always been like imminent doom. But here we are, you know, almost a hundred world war two. We're still here. You know, technology is advanced.

Weaponry is advanced. Delivery systems. Yeah, I mean, you know, like, I mean, ultimately will something be invented that will make everything else obsolete and put all wars the end? I don't know. That's a possibility. You know, that would be a level of technology that would, you know, that could possibly save you if we think that humanity is, is, you know, they're heading 100 miles an hour to brick wall. I don't, I don't think so. I don't like to think that. I had a hypothesis a long time ago that if we could harness, you know,

basically free energy for lack of a better term, but some sort of high, renewable energy source that wasn't, you know, an environmental detriment that didn't require a massive influx of resources harvested out of the earth. And then that power was distributed freely to people. I think they're working on that in France, right? Well, a lot of people have been working on it for a long time. I mean, you know, fusion's always been the promise. It's always been 20 years down the line, but that's been happening since 1950. Yeah, but they recently were able to sustain fusion for like five or 10 seconds or something like that just several months ago. Right, but they're still not to the point where they get an over immunity,

which is where they're producing more power than what they put into to the system. And that's what you would kind of need for that. Why would they even let people have that, though? But they feel that it's because of the facility that that's not happening. So they're constructing a facility in front right now. I don't think it's going to be completed for several more years. Right. And that's been, if you look at the progression of fusion, that's been the exact same story told since the 50s, is, oh, we need a bigger machine so we can generate a greater magnetic field.

Oh, we need a bigger machine for a bigger magnetic field. We also need to figure out better containment strategies. So we need it bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, that it's the, like it's going like bigger, bigger, bigger right now. I think it has to do with the quality of the machine. And I think that's what they're working on. typically a lot of them are magnetic field contained yeah for sure that's what it takes and you know and and stuff that's going to be able to contain that much heat but to have a to have fusion like actually on its own reacting for five seconds i mean i know we've been working on this for a long time the Russians have been working on this for a long time but to have that five second sustained fusion was a giant leap compared to that we've taken yeah and they've actually they're It's multiple giant leaps over the past year, actually.

Yeah. There's been a whole bunch of things with, you know, ignition and then also the maintaining of the field and then faster switching when it comes to how these magnetic fields do to respond into the inconsistencies and the chaos of that plasma. Yeah. Yeah, so, no, they've definitely been making strikes. But, you know, I think if we get that far,

even if we get past that point where you have a immunity, you still have the hurdle. We still have to give it away for food in order to kind of moment some sort of change. If we just go to the same system that, hey, you have to pay 10 cents per kilowatt hour or a buck per kilowatt hour in Europe these days or whatever sort of monetary mechanism they attach to it,

we just run ourselves into the same problem. Yeah, but without all the environmental destruction, yeah, I mean, you know, sure, you know, charging a dollar a kilowatt, that might be crazy. But it's a lot cleaner than, you know, everything else that we're trying to do right now or that should be what we are doing right now. Do you think that maybe that's what's happening now? Like, if you look at how long people have been trying to get rid of fossil fuel,

doesn't it kind of seem like right now the establishment is just trying to jam it through? Like, okay, we're going to force everyone to buy electric. Like, you're not going to buy, you can't buy fossil fuel cars anymore. Like, they're going out of their way to force. fossil fuels out and if you were part of the fossil fuel community you would be entrenched you'd fight it the whole way right like that's your bread and butter doesn't it kind of seem like that's exactly what's happening now well it's what they've been doing for a long time right is like fighting you know photovoltaic systems on people's homes you know and um you know like self-generated wind power and all the rest of that stuff

because they got to wait for the powers that be that have been a denial of of these energy sources is actually being legit, you know, give them a chance to get caught up in the game. And then once they're caught up, you know, so that they can sustain their wealth, then, you know, then all of a sudden you'll start to see rapid changes and development of these systems. Well, you can't, you know, that's the problem that I see with like, you know, especially like here in Hawaii, you know, you know, Hawaiian Electric Company went through, you know, a great amount of fuss to slow down, you know, especially like photovoltaic here in the state until they were able to get caught up in the game. Because what they saw was, you know, them losing massive amounts of revenue, being the dinosaur in the room.

And, you know, and these people have to be able to maintain their wealth. so they use their money and political power to do so. And that's so now that they're in the game and big corporations, especially, you know, companies that are that are producing electricity and, you know, energy around the globe, you know, when the old money finally gets caught up so that they can secure their wealth and we'll start seeing huge technological gains. We'll start seeing big changes. And I think that's what you're seeing now.

Hmm. Yeah, I wonder when technology becomes good enough where you don't, where you can, where a David can beat a Goliath, you know, where, you know, is that what Tesla, is Tesla the David and they're up against all the Goliaths or is there a way, like, have you guys ever heard of the Bloombox? The Blue Box, okay, the Bloombox is like, it's a startup or it was a startup, like 10 years ago out of San Francisco. And this guy was a, was a ex-NASA scientist.

And he's created some sort of box with like sand and glass, the story. energy and then you just feed your whole you can feed I know what there's a FedEx there's a giant FedEx place running on it there's all these and they're a private company so you can buy your bloom blocks run your house on it run your company on it like a Fortune 500 company runs on it like yeah didn't like Google wasn't Google like running part of their facility on it they were they were so like the technology is there like it's just like so that's what I mean like we have probably the ability to get to give everyone like we could give everyone free people power, but that would cause society to fail in the long run because it would ruin the structure

of society. Well, I mean, that's a, that's a bold statement. How could it not? Like, if everybody didn't have to get up and go to work every day, would they go? Like, the only reason I go to work is because they give me money. And if I had power here, if you don't go to work, you're in debt, you're right. But if you have power, you're in debt, that's why we live in a debt in society. You know, we don't live in accredited society.

We live in a debted society because debt motivates people to be productive. And free power would go a long way to get rid of that, right? I don't know if free power would. I mean, you know, I think free power would get rid of your electric bill. It would get rid of your gas bill if you had an electric car. Yeah, but think about all the things you can do with your family just by getting up and going to work. That's motivation too. I don't know.

I disagree. You didn't have the $300 that you were spending on electricity. George, what would you do? $300 a month. I don't know what your electric bill. Mine's like 300 bucks a month. Okay. Like, so what would you do with that $300?

I mean, it's $300. It's not that much money. I see what you're doing to work. You're going to stop going to work? Maybe I could work a day less for $300. If you could work a day less, I don't know. Maybe you could pay for medical insurance or something, you know, I don't know. I think I could still get the same.

I think I could still get all my benefits and just work one day less with an extra $300. Okay. And then that day, I could still with my family. I would go to the beach or like. I don't know, maybe go work in my yard or hang out, my daughter, my... Right up a mountain. That's, I would probably eat some mushrooms, right? Why not?

300 bucks and a bag. That would buy you like a couple ounces maybe, maybe an ounce and a half, depending where you got it. Yeah, well, what I'm saying is it's like, it's not a lot, right? It's not a lot. You're right. It's meaningful. It's meaningful the electric company, right?

It's shit and, you know, like all of a sudden. sudden there's a lot of people looking for jobs, but I think a lot of those people would go and work for the companies that were producing this new free energy, you know, manufacturing, developing better technologies. Like, just because you shut down some system doesn't mean that other systems aren't born of that set down, you know? It's like this whole thing about deregulation, you know, it's like, oh, deregulation is like, you know, strangling corporations across America. Well, deregulation also provides jobs for people, you know. So maybe, let me go back, let me go back a little.

I think that that was the wrong question. Like, it would influence me. If I could take one day off, it wouldn't have a whole lot of effect on the system. But what about 300 million people taking a day off? Like, that would have a huge effect on the system. So if I, if giving me free powers stops me from working one day, what about 300 million people not working one day? I wouldn't worry about it. Yeah, what about, you know, you got consumerism running rampant right now.

That's true. You just gave those people consumerism. So now you just gave those people an extra day and $300 to go blow some cash. Perfect. I think maybe we should take it up. Generates jobs there in and of itself, right? There's extra tourism. There's extra, you know, they're serving, there's hospitality.

There's all of those jobs that would arise with the extra free time and money for people to enjoy it. I think that's where the redirection needs to be done, right? enough people are laid off from this energy services, everything becomes with less man-force, and these people get laid off. So instead of building up tourism and stuff, keeping that on limit and making them towards the educational side would be the redirection that would shape the way we are going.

More people educated, and then days off would be meaningful, right? And getting extra $300 would not be just blown off on just a capitalistic mission that they have given you to fulfill in this life, right? It goes, it's just, it's going to change a lot of things based on how we see as a collective conscious force. Right. And I think, you know, it's important to point out you could do one of these things, but because the system is the way it is, because you still have, you know, we, even if you took away the for-profit energy sector,

you still have a for-profit health sector, a for-profit media sector, a for-profit, all these kind of pillars of what we deem on modern society are all-profit driven, which means they're not individually motivated to, you know, help their end user, their consumer, what-havis. They're there for the shareholder

and created bonuses at the end of the year. But I think it starts one at a time. I don't know if that's necessarily. true. I mean, you could say that it's the one domino that starts the rally, right? But at the same time, there's so many systems in play here and so many stopgaps. So if I go off and pull two dominoes, 10 dominoes down your line and your domino falls, it can't hit the next one because, hey, I own the ability for you get a license in my city. So, you know, if you don't have a holistic and comprehensive solution to this.

I think that there's enough stock gaps that are already built into the world that kind of, you know, almost make these non-starters in a lot of instances. I was listening. You guys ever listened to Garifakis? He's the ex-finance minister from Greece. And he's a pretty interesting guy. And he tells a story about, you know, when Greece had their default and Europe was coming to them and saying, look, you cannot default.

on your debt no matter how bad it is. And he, so he tells the story about going to the meeting of all the financial ministers and he came in under the party, Sarisa, who was like a far right party. People were like saying all these things like, oh, they're a bunch of Nazis or they're this. And so he said he already had all these strikes against him when he went into the financier meeting of Europe. And he said before he could even get across his plan, you know, before he could even say

to them, look, we must default on some of this. the German finance minister came to him and said, Mr. Garifagas, I only have one thing to say, and then you can say whatever you want. You can change any policy you want in your government, but you have to pay us back every dime that you owe us. He's like, what's the point of even being here then? He's like, and so he came up with some interesting ideas

that translate to the United States or even international parties. And what he said is that if you want to change the system, it can be done, but people and people can do it by kind of the same way like you remember like the apes came in and they they blew up AMC and they blew up all these they forced wall street to stop so garifakis says like look it's public records that that people can see what these families own they can see what these corporations own and if enough people got together and started shorting some of their positions like if you had big chunks if you went on reddit and started a group and you were able to see the companies that these family foundations have leveraged, you could short them and bankrupt them, you know, and you could do it. You could see, and you could do it by saying, okay, everybody in the state of Arizona, no one pay your state Arizona electric bill. And no one does. And then they go down. You go, okay, anybody that's in the state of California, no one pay PG&E.

And we know it's scary. So we have set up this go fund me where we're going to pay your fees to get it back online. but we don't want anybody in California to pay their electric bill for two months. Like there's ways that people could go about it that could fundamentally throw a giant wrench in the system and force those people to come at the table. But the question is, would we ever be that united to do something like that? See, I think that gets in kind of the game theory of group dynamics. Right. And I think when you have a loose affiliation like that, where it's just like, you know,

the A and C one's a perfect one. Right. They were able to come together for the AMC one, but when they tried to branch out, it didn't work. They had their flash in the pan, which was amazing to watch. And it was wonderful to watch the whole thing. But, you know, when they tried to expand out, it didn't work. And a lot of people lost a lot of money because of it. And so when you just have that loose affiliation, especially, you know, we already know that, you know, just doing this virtually doesn't really breed that bond that,

get from hanging out with each other. So now you add that into the equation, and then you have the ability for bad actors to come and influence the situation. And I think it could probably become pretty untenable pretty fast, especially when, you know, you have the threat of, yeah, you're not going to be able to feed your kids because all your food's spoiled because your electricity was off and they couldn't get you a generator or something. You know, all these stories will manifest themselves.

So yeah, I think it becomes a very difficult thing when you have a loose group of affiliation like that. I think you need, and if you look at it historically at a broader scale, you know, that's why you need a document like a constitution. Or you need something, you know, some sort of precedent like a magnet card. You know, you need something like that so people can at least say, hey, look, we're all on this same page. and that has to be not just, you know, something that people sign per se like an online petition, but it has to be something that, you know, they really feel true and deep as part of their lives. And I think that's kind of why we, you know, that's kind of the evolution of nation states as we've seen over at least reported. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it blows my mind to think about just the different ways in which we could

forecast humanity going and some of the problems and some of the solutions. Ranga, what do you think is one of the major issues worth working on from like a strategic or a philosophical level in the next five to ten years? I think we had the same thing about debates, right? It's more honest communications trying to get things in a simpler way. are we unnecessarily complicate stuff and if we individually complicated stuff and it exponentially adds on at a state level or a national level right so if the more we tend to keep it simple and honest it's it seems a very individual journey in that sense but it's like all politicians should be

given a tab a facet right and their priorities get reorganized right so let's keep it simple because we're trying so hard to communicate. So that's what. And I think that will be a good thing on both sides, right? If that builds trust, not the way right now people always have to hear something and assume the opposite meaning of it. 90% of the times, that's the news that kind of goes out. But rather, we should be at a point where what we hear, we can

relief even at the media level right now how much can you say they did tested the new booster shot on eight mice eight mice not even ten so yeah yeah yeah I was gonna oh good a mutation is key you know that's that to me that's like you know that's kind of been a really big part of the reason why we are where we are, especially in America here, is just like poor communication, the lack of education. You know, like those two things go hand in hand, and the more that our educational, these public educational institutions are, you know, become more in despair. the worst our society seems to become.

It's not always about just too, like, understanding, you know, how to have better conversations, because that takes, you know, take some practice, but more like identifying, you know, poor conversation. Well, and you touched on it, but I think the education has, it was key in that factor. And, you know, the most current step that I'm aware, I'm pretty sure it's 2019, is 50,

of the people in the United States have a sixth grade level education and there's 18% illiteracy rate now I you know I don't know the veracity of that but even if they're close to true you know that that that goes a long way in explaining why there are so many poor conversations it might be scary to like imagine if we imagine if we were if we were executives of state or we held high positions in whatever administration and we're sitting here and we're looking at the real numbers and the real numbers are like Ben said they're worse. You know, like what if you're looking at a rate of illiteracy that's, you know, 15 to 20 percent? What if you're looking at, you know, what if you're looking at a group of people that have,

you know, what if 50 percent of the people have a ninth grade education? Like how do you, how do you, you know, maybe, maybe it's maybe it's, maybe it's. circus and bread. Maybe that is the answer. Well, I would, I would push back on that and I would say it would highly depend upon what our agenda is. Ah, yes. If our goal, yeah, because look at how much money in just revenue the United States actually produces. Look at how much of it is put towards projects that really don't benefit, you know, unless it's trickle down. Right.

You know, anybody that's an average citizen. I think, you know, if we were aligned and we had a good motivation and we had a good goal and we, you know, had transparency and authenticity with what we're doing and people were on board, I think we can solve a lot of problems really fast. Because now instead of, you know, $400 billion for bombs, we have $400 billion to remove our 20% of literacy. Yeah. Well, I wonder, like, if you did, like, all the statistics across America, like, by state literacy rate and an average education level, you know, I wonder if, I wonder where the United States would stand if you remove the southern states from that equation. Well, I think if I remember the report correctly, it did break it down state by state. And it was, the southeast was much more dramatic than their number. Yeah, I'm in a place that devalues education and, you know, working hard to do so every day.

I don't know if that's accurate. I don't think that the South goes out of their way to devalue education or make it worse, do they? I think if you look at just the economic numbers of like what a teacher gets paid, for instance, and you look at, you know, the amount of time that the kids actually show up to school, a lot of these other factors because there's much more rural areas down there. They're much more, you know, there's a lot of bayou, for instance, and there's a lot of the Appalachian Mountains. And when you go, like, I've been to Tennessee quite a few times, and I know quite a few Appalachian people. And it's a harder accent to understand for me than going to,

like, Trinidad and Tobago, which I spend some time in, too. And that's a hard accent to understand. And so, you know, there's a lot of contributing factors to that as well, where I think you do get, at least the statistics suggested as much, is that you do get a higher proportion of those numbers in the southeastern region of those information. Well, I think, you know, too, you're talking about an area that, you know, prioritizes religion over education. There's something to say that, too. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and honestly, they're probably going to get some heat for this, but religion and education, you know, don't always go hand in hand. They don't play with them together.

Well, yeah, I think there's a lot to unpack there, right? But I think it's really interesting, too. It's kind of recent on history that education and religion have been separate. For the longest time, the religious institutions, the priesthoods, you know, things like that, they were the purveyors of education. Of literacy. Of literacy, right? Even some of the best schools today are still religious. I mean, none of the best schools.

A lot of top expensive schools in the United States are still affiliated with religions, you know, like BYU or, you know, the Irish Notre Dame, right? Trump, Trump, the Trump College Trump University Right? That is a good one Yeah, well, that's a religion of one What's that? The religion of one Now

You voted for Trump, didn't you Paul? Oh, shit Yeah, George twice All right, I just, I was sensing Some Trump arrangement syndrome there If you want to talk about it, you're amongst friends. No, I mean, and I told you, I voted for Yosemite Sam. It's a good vote.

It's good vote. So, yeah. Oh, go ahead. No, no, it's all good. I was going to say, before we get too far off what we were talking about, I did want to write, or I didn't want to read something I wrote. Yeah. I don't know my new elevator pitch. So I want you guys this opinion.

All right. Our society faces problems at scale. We can solve these. problems by an intentional effort to merge age-old practices, modern technology, and functional pieces of the various systems we use today into a new model, a model for community and business while honoring the individual by focusing on individual wealth, health, and even. I like it. I would add in there something like that you have said to me prior, and that is we're not going to get through this particular world. We're not going to get through

this particular model or we're not going to get through this we're not going to get through this by using the same methods in the past we're not you you end up fighting you end up becoming the thing you hate and if you fight someone you like the revolution eats its own but I think a good segue in there to what you said would be like we need a model that incorporates all the good parts of what we've been using and gets rid of some of the bad parts Because I think that that's what the Terra Libre does. I think about it all the time. I think that you have to find a way to not participate in this old system.

Otherwise, you give it the vitality it needs to continue on. But I think what you said is awesome. I would add that in there because I think it's a nice segue. Yeah, I like that a lot. Thanks. What do you think, Paul? You know, sometimes Ben's Mike on my end is a little muddled. Oh.

So I was actually going to ask him to read it again. Yeah, can you read it again? Sure. Let's see. I was going to try to fit what you said in, George, but I'll just read it again. All right. Our society faces problems at SCAM. We can solve these problems by an intentional effort to merge age-old processes,

modern technology, and the functional pieces of various systems we use today into a new model, a model for community and business that honors the individual by focusing on individual wealth, health, and liberty. Yeah, I mean, shit, I don't know. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's, you know, of course, like combining stuff that works, old practices that are tried and true,

you know, along with, you know, new age technology, you know, or our, I mean, that's kind of what we're doing anyways right now, right? I mean, that's kind of the way of the world. but um it's the way it is definitely is the way of the world i think from like an overarching perspective right and this is to kind of take what we observe in that natural evolution the human system and put it into a functional model that is something that can be duplicatable and workable you know across regions can you give can you give us an example well it's not built

yet but what kind of example are you looking for yeah yeah so this is a a project I've just been working on for well I had the I had the idea about 15 years ago and then you know it's been first you know first it was just kind of a fanciful of you know like oh you know the burning man idea is pretty cool but what if you put that into kind of like a functional community it was kind of the idea you've heard sustainability and technology and you could do something awesome well the reality of that situation is it's much more nuanced to recreate a community that could actually function on a larger scale you you know, in terms of the greater business world, the marketplace of ideas, just being able to,

you know, sustain itself, let alone, you know, you don't want something that excises itself from society because you're going to miss out on all of the potential benefits of society. You want something that moves the needle just a little bit in one direction where, you know, now instead of having these crazy systems that are corrupt and bureaucracies and all these things, you can have one person, but you can have a system that's, very much regulated, not necessarily regulated except by the people who vote on it to enable individual wealth. You have a system that can provide an equal access to opportunity in the sense that you can, you know, you would be able to take the funds of this business and provide the

basic necessities for a community. You know, you do this by, you know, merging those age-old systems, sustainable agriculture, permaculture, things like this, and putting it combined with this technology and then having this sort of intentional community, but it's also a business. And all of the ability for somebody to sell their art, to sell their services, to sell their products, all of those barriers of entry that normally exist in the world,

you can eliminate because your business providing the opportunity, essentially. And it's not some 1099s, scam or anything like that. It's very much everybody's invested into the system. I wonder, it seems like you can learn a lot from looking at the bones of like a special economic zone or a non-governmental organization.

You know, I think there's probably some sort of structure, some sort of structure like that that would help to do that. Ladies and gentlemen, we got Jason Sheffield here. Hey, hey, good to meet you guys. What's up, Jason? All right, Jason, you popped in at a perfect time. I'm going to have Ben, read this thing one more time, and I want to get your opinion on it.

Are you ready? Ready. Okay. Go ahead, Ben. Third time's a charm, as I say. You know it. You know it. All right.

Our society faces problems at scale. We can solve these problems by an intentional effort to merge age-old practices, modern technology, and the functional pieces of various systems we use today into a new model, a model for community and business that honors the individual by focusing on individual wealth, health, and liberty. Okay. Are you ready to join? I think so.

How would you, like, what do you think of when you hear that? I was digging it. I was kind of beginning to think like, okay, what is this? Like, this kind of thing resonates. Like, who's talking like that? this coming from? I want to hear more. I don't quite understand it, but I have a desire to dig deeper into the nuances of what was being shared. All right. That's a sign of a good elevator pitch. It sure is. Ben's got a project he's been working on for quite some time called the

Terra Libre project. And I don't, I don't, you don't, you got your infographics coming up maybe next week or so. Yeah, I'm actually reading off of it now, but it's not ready to be sure. Okay. All right. Yeah. So he's got some pretty awesome ideas that he shared. And that was his elevator pitch. I know that you've had one meeting with some investors. Do you got some more coming up? Yeah. I do actually. It was so this is, I kind of put a little bit of a pause on it because I did need to structure it in a sense that would actually not not take away from the underlying foundation of the project, but still make it an interesting opportunity. for, you know, philanthropy slash venture capital potentially. And I figured out the way to do that, and it's basically just a two-stage thing where there'll be, you know, an initial investment from that will be kind of a venture capital crowd fund type idea. And then, you know, if I can get somebody to lead that round, which I have a few meetings set up for that, which would be kind of cool. then we take that and that would fold into kind of the initial crypto coin essentially,

but that coin would be attached to the business structure and dividends that would be from products and services that are already kind of developed. So I have systems built for, you know, regenerative farming and sustainable agriculture. I have automated indoor gardens that I've designed. A couple other little small things like that that really kind of. the foundations of this. I've worked on a few 3D printed housing projects and some other things like that that kind of work into all this as well.

So it's a whole lot of moving pieces that I'm putting into kind of a model that is, potentially if it needs to be, could have a venture capital kind of investment fund that would propel it and they would be able to benefit and everybody else would be able to benefit and it doesn't ruin the overarching profits. How do you get the venture cat, like it seems just the word venture capital means that they're going to see a big chunk of all the profits before it gets distributed to other people? So you have different types of contracts. And it's not going to be every venture capital fund. But there is kind of an interesting nuance because of what's happening in the world with all of this.

The climate change and the green new deals and all this. There's a lot of money being thrown at. things called climate tech. So, you know, this actually checks all of those boxes. You know, it's not really, it doesn't agree with the narrative, if you will, but it checks all the boxes for that, which, you know, if somebody's serious about the endeavor, then their, you know, their boxes are checked. Their boxes are checked.

Yeah, it's a good point. Does it, does it fit into the psychedelic community? Is there a wing, a psychedelic wing? Yeah, you're pushing me way forward in things I really want to talk about. Because I really want to get this all out in some sort of form. But if you think about it, there really is no community without really honoring our spiritual aspect of what it is. This is true. It's very true.

And to try to make something without that is you're just flirting with the. a disaster already. So, you know, there is definitely a spiritual aspect to this. And I think it really comes down to, it's not, those things don't make the model work. The model work will work with multiple different people's perspectives on it. It's just creating a duplicatable model at its core that kind of loosely connects and aggregates all of these different potentially, you know, intentional communities. If somebody wanted to duplicate that model, and I'm not trying to push you too far,

I'm just curious. Like, if someone wanted to use your model, would they franchise it or is it like, no, they just take it and run with it? No, it's going to be an open source thing.

Nice. The idea behind this is, I don't want to be anybody's leader. I don't want to be anybody's babysitter. I don't want to profit off this. I'm not a, I don't want to be anybody's guru. But I want to enable people to have the ability to,

you know, solve the problems of individual wealth, health, and liberty. Yeah. And this is a way to do that. And if people want, and if it works and the model duplicates, it just works greater for everybody involved in the model. So then you have kind of a, you know, viral effect. I like it. Yeah.

It's good to think about. What, um, if we shift gears here for a minute, I was talking to Jason earlier this week, about just different ways people take psychedelics and the way it's affected people. And I had asked Jason this question. I may have asked this question, but the question is to everybody here, what do you think about the idea of taking psychedelics as an, like if you are going to be a coach,

if you are going to be someone that guides other people through difficult times through psychedelics, what do you think about you as the individual taking the psychedelic to diagnose their problem for them. What do you think, Ranga? I think psychedelic is a very internal thing. It works very internally. So at least for me, based on what I've interacted with the drug, right? So I think, yeah, there can be a facilitator or a trip sitter who can take the drug in pretty much middle range dose having a control over the conscious mind as well as be able to step out of it right while the patient is actually doing the work so you can just be a guide and i haven't pondered upon it a lot but there can be certain ways the patient can be guided with the right

set of questions right so setting the intention right so with the intention you have a kind of a framework on which you can work on. But it's all client-specific. So there's going to be a lot of meetings just before in forming the trust between a facilitator and a client rather than, oh, yeah, we just get started and, you know, do it today or tomorrow, right? So it's going to be weeks of just talking and farming that to be able to understand even during when you're going into a bad trip that this voice reminds you of something. as simple as it can be to come back to reality on some level. Would you, like, if you were going to help, like, it seems interesting to me because I think there's a gray area. Like, I've taken psych, normally I do it by myself.

However, I have taken psychedelics with my friends. And when I've taken them with my friends, I felt like it was sort of a way to bond. And both of us could maybe get to some similar places like that. However, I know in modern medicine, it's looked down upon to, to take it. you wouldn't, I wouldn't take like some riddle in just because you're taking riddle in, you know, but in might there be an area where you as a person could take psychedelics with someone else and help them? Like, would you see, you see that happening, Ranga? Would you ever find yourself in that position as a professional?

100% I believe that's one of a stronger pathways of going forward where the connection is there and being able to share that energy. I'm sure you can do. that without the help of the drug as well but with my current mindset and where I am at naturally getting into that state I'm just thinking that of drug assisting a process right so it can be in both observers yeah right yeah to get to a point of merging it doesn't fit into the framework of explanation but yeah yeah words fail at a point I was I was kind of Jason I was kind of hoping you could share your story because

when Jason and I had a conversation we were talking about heroic doses and I was under the impression that Jason was going to tell me about a heroic dose in the name of Terrence McKenna and the heroic dose that he talked about far exceeded anything I had thought possible and so it kind of touches on

on set and setting and doing it with someone else but Jason can you share your story with Paul and Ben and Ranga about the mega dose. Yeah, absolutely. It'd be fun to dive into. But I kind of want to speak, though, before getting into that. Yeah. But I think there's this sense that at some point at your work with people,

and again, I think it really depends on what is the intention, if it's coaching, therapy, or spiritual direction, right? And I think in certain realms, yeah, you're doing all three. But I also think sometimes that if it's in that, more spiritual direction space, that the facilitators should be tuned in enough that they don't need the psychedelics to be able to guide the person where they need to. And as I've sat with like medicine men and others, they're, you know, I know they're not partaking and they're able to guide in a way that they can be in tune. But then also, you know, sometimes like depending certain

ceremonies, you know, especially like with an ayahuasca ceremony, often the facilitators will drink a little tea as well and kind of, you know, obviously kind of tune in a little bit. So it's, it's an interesting question of like how often or what does that really, really look like. And I don't, I don't know. It's kind of a both and in many ways. It's kind of how I think about it. But yeah. So remind me, I have a story that, you know, I would agree with most everything that was said it. I had a very different experience this year. I was at a convention in Vegas. And it was somebody I didn't know. And the whole situation changed via touch. And then there was a conversation after it.

But don't let me forget to tell that. Sounds like a good story. So yeah, you know, I had been doing a little bit of research about kind of the mega dose side of things. And just being able to kind of Kalindi, I can never pronounce his last name, but check him out this dude i mean he was a magician and had a deep deep understanding and he was talking about doing you know 20 30 gram doses he talked about i think the most he said he ever did was 60 grams was i mean he has a if you if you youtube his videos like i mean yeah that's that is a magician in many ways i don't know that there's very many people that that can go

there but as i got interested into kind of he talked about us saying you know psilocybin, we right now are really framing it up in this like medicinal thing, right? It'll help with your therapy and it'll help with PTSD and depression and absolutely, right? We know this to be true. But he was saying, you know, they call them the magic mushrooms for a reason. And you've got to go a little bit deeper to be able to find that magic. And that was kind of in that 20 to 30 gram dose. And so again, you know, every person, I don't know, I would never recommend this.

I feel like that's always the caveat. You got to say that. But decided to do that. So I kind of led my way up to it. I first did a 14 gram. Kind of felt what that was. And I think it was interesting because I think it gave me more confidence than it should have. Like I handled the 14 gram experience pretty okay.

Like it was, you know, it was a little chaotic. It was a little rough. But like, it wasn't anything crazy. And I'm like, all right. Like, this is good. Like, I think I'm really ready for this. And then it just, I mean, it talked about like the magic. Like it wasn't even about medicine at that point.

You know, the drop in was it just, it was like, it was like a normal trip, normal trip, but times a thousand. Like it was just the normal process, but just so fast. I drank it as a tea. So literally I just, I grounded it up by kind of like in a pestle because I wanted to go through a ceremonial part with it. It was like, I've got to like own this thing. So I hand ground everything up and then I soaked it in some lemon and then I poured it in a big cup as a tea. And it was more like a soup. I mean, I had to use a spoon to like get the chunks in.

So that was a little rough. But it wasn't, you know, again, it wasn't too bad. And then I was like, all right. I went to the to the couch and I was like, all right, I had a blindfold. I was ready to kind of fall into this. And I mean, within probably 20 minutes, the blindfold was uncomfortable and everything. things started to shift. And it got scary. Like it got really hard. And it was kind of that initial death and a physical death that unlike any other kind of trip I had been on. And in the back of

my mind, I was, you know, I knew this couldn't kill me. I knew this was safe. I knew I was safe. And I was in a safe place. And I had a sitter that was safe and was making sure I was staying safe. And so, and I could communicate with them and say, you know, hey, I, you know, I really began to feel like I was going to die. I have it on recording. which my sitter did it for me. And I was like, I went back and it's, it's rough. I was like, how did you have the patience for like an hour and a half? I basically kept repeating, am I going to die? I don't know if you've ever met somebody that has a concussion. And then they, after a concussion, they can perseverate where they lose their short term memory. And they, and they will ask the same

question like every 30 seconds. I felt like that. It felt like I kind of just couldn't like it couldn't land. that I was going to be okay. So I kept wrestling and it was very physical, a lot of movement. It wasn't like I was totally down. And there was purging that was taking place as well. I don't know all the details, but it was that process, right? It was a death process. It was literally like sitting with my mortality and sitting with the reality that death is

coming and sitting with the gift of life. And really at the end of the day, the magic of the mushroom. rooms is what I did mention on our podcast, George, of the secret of the universe, you know, the Dicean saying that if you die before you die, when you die, you won't die. It was that experience. It was literally facing and holding the emotional weight of death, not a knowledge, but it was a bodily feeling of death. And it was like cellularly, I knew what death could feel like. And the fear of crossing over to the other side and the fear of like, how do I take the next breath? And then the surrender and my sitter giving me permission to basically say, hey, what if you don't take the next breath?

Right? How do you surrender to this? And then the shift began to happen. And I began to find my breath and I began to find some sense of peace. And then it was like, okay, I can work with this and I can do this. And then I was like, I have all the tools around me that I need. I have my sound bowls, I have my rocks, you know, I've got the things that like I can ground me and I can, I can work with this. And there's like, I needed water. And then it kind of just put myself back together.

And then it was like experiencing heaven. It was just so in tune with source, so in tune with just a divine consciousness that was euphoric. And it was, you know, the music was incredible, just the sense of breath. time just meditating and it was just like a different level took the best shower I've ever had I mean this is like the whole nine like it was amazing so yeah yeah it it brings up a question to me that we kind of spoke to a little bit and I know I've spoken to Ben about this and I think I spoke to Paul but I don't know if I've asked wrong it seems to me at the higher levels the higher you like I was telling Jason that anywhere between like five and in like eight or 10 grams, I found myself in this incoherence where like I really felt like a lot

of ecstasy, like I felt great and I felt like I felt the knowing. However, when I started coming back down, I couldn't really remember exactly what it was that I was thinking about when I was at the peak. And when I took, I've taken, when I took 18 grams, that was like a different, it was a different animal to me because there was a lot of clarity that I could take back home, could that I could fundamentally remember and remember it crisply where on those smaller doses, even though they're bigger than the average dose, there was a lot of incoherence. So I was curious if other people had had that same situation. Jason had mentioned to me that he thinks that it's at these higher doses that you begin to

pierce that veil, that anything, you know, and I'm not trying to say that 10 or 8 or 5 or insignificant doses, every one of those doses can be huge doses. for someone and they can probably experience very similar things. But in my case, in other people's case, it seems to me that at some of these higher doses, there seems to be a clarity that you don't get from the other doses. Ben, have you experienced that? Yes, in the past. And then recently I've been experimenting with the new process, which I talk to you a little bit about.

Nice. But, you know, the word is integration. And so instead of actually, you know, taking these and laying down and meditating and whatnot, I go out in the sun and I start to run. And I get physically, really physical. And all of a sudden, I'm looping back around for more mushrooms and a little bit of water, more mushrooms and a little bit of water and more mushrooms and a little bit of water. And that was the first few times I did it.

And then it got to the point where I was able to hit that same state at multiple different levels. of mushrooms. And so this kind of leads me into my story, but I don't have to tell it yet if you have something else strange. Yeah, well. Yeah, please tell it. Let me hear it. Yeah, I want to hear the story.

So I was a, so I've been doing this for probably about a year an hour or so. I taught my buddy how to do it too. So it was a duplicatable process, which is always nice to ensure you're not absolutely bad shit crazy. And we were actually at a conference in Vegas. And we basically integrated about nine to 11 grams of mushrooms in the morning. And we were just there, just entertaining people. Just, you know, there was a group of people always around us.

It was an electric event. We were just outside. We weren't even actually in the convention. We just had this posse of people all around us. All of a sudden, I look over mushrooms. shoulder and there's this kid freaking out and I can see it like everybody starts to move away from him because he's like shaken talking to himself muttering and uncomprehensible words and everybody's kind of getting freaked out and I can feel the energy kind of shifting and I was like eh not today

and I walked over to him and I put my hand on his shoulder and my intent you know he didn't know me I didn't know him my intent was obviously to alleviate what he was going through and instantly he responded he started to shake a little bit less came back looked at me had a conversation for like five minutes everybody started to come back i won't share his story because it's personal but um and then everybody you know came around him started to talk and everything and then he looks at me And he goes, I don't know how to introduce myself to people. And he was like, there were certain things like he was just, he didn't really happen. I was like, oh, it's really easy.

I was like, what's your name? And I'll call him Kevin. You know, he's like, I'm Kevin. I was like, hey, Kevin, my name's Ben. And shook my hand. And all of a sudden his entire demeanor changed. Everybody was shaking his hand, giving them fist bumps, give him hugs. And before he left, he's like.

thank you. I was gone. And then, you know, and it was a grand total, maybe a 25-minute thing. So, you know, there was a, you know, for me, the highly scientific guy. And then having, you know, I've had some other interesting experiences too, but this one was kind of that, from the hermetic philosophy, you know, kind of like the transmutation and mental energy, right? And it was, yeah, and it, there was tons of people around. me, my buddy who was also in a similar state witness the whole thing too. And it was just, it was a very curious moment in time that I'm still kind of unpacking. That's out of control, man.

In a beautiful way, it's out of control. It was wild. It was just one of those things where it was like the second I touched him on the shoulder, I just kind of felt it. It was just if you weren't, you know, if I wasn't in that state, I wouldn't have felt it, but it was just an instinct thing. And he just popped back and I could talk to him and he would listen to me. We're complete strangers.

So, you know, kind of harking back to what we're talking about with, you know, medicine and intervention and things like that, I think there's a bit more to the equation to be had. I think, you know, there is, you know, that kind of, you know, if I was a psychologist, hey, buddy, why don't you sit down, it's okay, calm down. You go, get this guy a blanket. There's all these, you know, nuances and things. And I just walked over doing like, oh, no, buddy, we're having a great time here.

You're going to have a good time, too. do you think if you didn't have mushrooms like you would have even talked to him you think you might have backed away like everybody else no i'm usually one of those people who you talk to somebody make sure everything's okay um but on mushrooms i'm a million times more of that person i can i can read a room like you want to imagine and i you know i felt it before people started to back away and then i saw the visible representation and it's like oh i can fix that yeah you didn't need to talk to him you just touched him like that's how powerful it is. Yeah. Yeah. And what it actually was is, you know, not getting too much into a story, but he just needed that kind of contact. The life that he was living, because he told me his whole life story

and the brief, five minute thing and why he was in that state. And the life that he was living was pretty much devoid of contact with people. And it was completely counter to his morals and all these other things that was causing him of very much a psychotic break in that moment. I remember this other dude that, like, stories about him where he'd walk around and touch people that were like kind of freaking out and being demonic like just saying like that shit like that's awesome like that's a that's a beautiful thing yeah there's more of that we'd probably have less school shootings probably have like a little bit

better world you know what i mean well you know i kind of built up a little bit to it because i really think it's actually a teacher skill yeah i don't first responder it's not it's not i mean i imagine there's talent and everything, right, a little bit. There's some innateness to things, right? Nurture versus nature. But it's definitely a teachable skill. And I was, you know, I've been able to repeat that integration process, that part of the mushroom experience with multiple people.

It's interesting because when I think of mushrooms and I think of the mycelium growing in and exchanging information to other trees, The same way that my... I don't think so. I'm not sure. The same way the mycelium runs through you. And then it, you know, you reach out and touch somebody else. It's almost like your touch is a form of communication, you know?

Well, it most certainly was. Right. You know, it was, and it was visceral. I experienced it, too. But it was that fast. I mean, it was in a moment. And then, you know, the conversation was kind of, you know, the after effect of it, but everything changed in that moment. But it was a felt thing.

So, and, you know, kind of other research I've done into, you know, the effects of mushrooms on human body. We have these things called ionophores in our system. And ionophores are electrical charge carriers that transport electrical charge from the cells to extraneous. tissue. And the way that those ionophores are formed in the system is primarily through fungus and bacteria. And so I highly suspect, and, you know, when you look at the fMRI results and the neuroplasticity results and the different things of people under the influence of hallucinogens, or enthogens probably more specifically, I think you're getting not just an increased connectivity inside the body, but you're actually getting an increased charge.

And when you go into these states of this like integration where, you know, extraneous physical exercise, what that does on a physiological level, I'm decoding a little bit, but you know, you're, you're pumping adrenaline into your system. You're having, you know, cortisol's building up in the system. You're, you're creating a different environment. And I think those, you know, just like set and setting, it's the internal set and setting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. If your veins are dilated and the blood is pumping faster, you know, you're, you're, you are a different animal when you're working out, you know.

So why wouldn't it affect your body in a different way? You know, it's a whole other set and setting, like you said, it's interesting. It makes me wonder sometimes, too, I was, I was thinking about along the similar lines of like, like, tryptomines fit. they fit like neurotransmitters, right? Like they, they fit into like the, uh, 5-2A receptor.

And so like, when I think of neurotransmitters, I think of them, like that's what, okay, so let me just throw this out there and tell me if I'm wrong. So the, the neurotransmitters gets fired from the dendrite

to a next dendrite in between the synaptic gap, right? And it tells, it says, it shoots across the dopamine or the serotonin into this one. And then that, tells this one what to do. So if, if in fact the psilocybin fits the key,

it fits the key to that neurotransmitter, isn't that basically the, the mushroom talking to us? Like, that's the form of language, right? When the neurotransmitter goes across the synaptic gap, isn't that language? That's telling the nerve what to do.

So if psilocybin does the same thing, isn't that the plant telling us what to do? Wouldn't that be considered? language wouldn't that be the plant talking to us? Yeah, I think there's a little bit of there that's a misconstruction. I think, you know, when your neurotransmitter gets bound to, then it kicks off, you know, it will release other things like a, it's a cascade effect. Okay.

But in essence, you know, what you said is still the same. When, you know, the psilocybin binds to that 5MEO receptor, or they, yeah, sorry, then it kicks off a dopamine cascade, and it also accelerates acetyprolene in the brain, and it activates serotonidetic receptors as well. But, yeah, I think that's communication. I don't think, you know, I would also suspect, I'll admit it first that most people who have gone deep in the mushroom trips do feel an interconnection a little bit to the mushroom itself. You know, and not just that, but to where it grows, the environment that's involved in the process in which it came, how it influenced humanity. You know, what sort of used to our antiquity? And I think it's kicked off. It definitely kicked off my journey, you know, and continues to redo so.

Yeah, I like for a lack of a better way to describe it, I feel like I'm communicating with the planet on high doses of mushrooms. Sometimes I feel it's the strain or, you know, but I feel that. So another aspect, another perspective on that is we are transceivers, right? We're all we're receiving and we're transmitting data all the time. And when you have a greater activity in your brain, you're transmitting and receiving and processing more data. And, you know, like Sinesasia, which we've covered before, you're tapping into different sensory processing areas of the brain while all this information is flowing through. So, you know, in essence, you are here in your greater degree of the world around you. Your ability to process that sensory data is heightened, you know, to different degrees at different times, but certainly heightened.

So, you know, there's a lot to be said about, you know, people who do very much. feel like they're community of nature when they go out on a mushroom trip in the forest. Yeah. I've talked to dreams too. Some of the best conversations I've had with my avocado tree outside. It always tells me the answers. I think you get like, I've told this story before too, but like, you know, I think you can learn a lot just by looking at the ecosystem of the plant and seeing your own life.

Like, look at these little weeds around here. Like, sometimes I'll be out there. It'll be coming down. I'm like, do there are these weeds around the root of this thing? And then it makes me think about, like, all the weeds in my life. Like, you know what's growing over here that probably doesn't need to grow? It's my ego. I'd probably cut that one down.

And if you should start thinking about the ecosystem in which the plant grows, you can really relate that to the ecosystem in which you grow. You know, we always talk about so above, so below. But Ranga, what are you thinking of there? You're pretty quiet, my friend. What is this, what do you make of the idea of language in psilocybin and psychedelics? First of all, one of the reasons I was silent is because I was thinking about the dosage you were talking about. So I thought I'll quietly go away, meet you guys in three months time or something where I can have my double digit or even.

I just add this thought for the last two weeks listening to Dennis McKenna about heroic dose and I've been trying to, okay, I'm going to get this five grams. So I literally have planned for the five grams to the first time when you guys were talking about 18 and 20. before. I think, Ronga, all it means we've maybe been practicing

a little longer. You are on the right path at the right time and yeah, do not feel that. I'm 15 years in. Yeah.

Yeah, it's three years for me. I think that's true because there is no, it's just their curiosity peaks and I start trying and now the curiosity is towards

trying different compounds to see the minute changes in states of consciousness, right, as you were saying with respect to sense and being brightened. So my partner and I discuss what's happening. Is it like a sixth sense that grows, it's just sharpening of five senses and so much interactivity between those, right? So you sense to, you see reality in a very different way. With respect to mushrooms sitting on it, I think it's beautiful. Communication happens in so many ways and this is, that's how neurons and receptors are communicating.

So if a mushroom goes and sits there, it's, it's the best thing. And yeah, I felt after taking mushrooms more curious about growing them, even though I haven't made the effort to grow them, it's just the curiosity that began. and I wouldn't have normally tried to watch fungi, right, on Netflix or something. But there is a drive now. It just comes, you know, right? You're seeing like 20 icons on the screen and here, I pick up this one.

Like, yep, some bit of the psilocybin still stayed in the system. Now, if you look at history as a whole, and we take like the stoned ape theory and things like that, and we look at all these old things and we say that the mushroom, has been integral to the evolution of humans. Is it the mushroom that's been integral to the evolution of humans or the humans integral to the propagation of the mushroom? It seems like we're all pretty fond of mushrooms. I think that's the beautiful, like, symbiotic relationship

between things that need each other. Like the fungi need us and we need the fungi. Like it's this beautiful thing that you can't say it's one or the other. It's like we've been serving each other. from the very beginning. It's a beautiful dance between the, the two consciousnesses, because I think the language thing makes total sense.

It is a consciousness, right? I mean, you begin to understand it can communicate with fucking trees and all of the stuff that it can talk. It can, you know, even now they have like the stuff like Paul Stamitts, you know,

plugging like things onto it. You can hear the music and the, right? It's beautiful. They are, so I mean, just yes. I feel like you can't, like you have to think about it that way.

because that's exactly what's going on. Yeah, for a moment. Like, you know, that have done the hero dose, you know, in 10 years. Like, what do you think the dosage is going to go for you personally, you know, even over the next five years? I'm going to try to push it to, you know, from 18 to 25, 25 to 30. I hope so. I would like to get at least in it. I think for me, the next one will be an ounce.

I was going to do 24, but Jason's already done that. Hold on, hold on here. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm trusting Ben knows what he's talking about. He's not called Mr. Wizard for nothing. So here's the thing, you know, I'll tell you the next evolution, Paul. The next evolution is now you just start up in your daily dose.

In your what? Your daily dose. Yeah. Yeah, I don't have a daily practice. Like, you know, I started doing, you know, psychedelics in like 1990. There might be people here then weren't even born then.

But, you know, I've had, you know, at times, you know, like love, hate relationship with hallucinogens, all different types. Where I pushed myself to go, you know, to take more LSD or to do more mushrooms, you know, at a time. And then

I went through long stretches of my life where I was just completely turned off to hallucinogens altogether. you know where it's like even the thought of like hey you know like we're all going to like eat some mushrooms you want to and like before the sentence even ends I was just like fuck no you know and I think that was something inside of me that was like pushing back a little bit saying hey man like you went pretty hard there for a long time and and it's time to back off it's not right now you know and then slowly then all of a sudden one day I was like wow I'd really like to you know you know I'd like to try some psychedelics again and then start to you know kind of build up and and and and what I found like as I've gotten older it's never been more about like trying to push myself to do more in fact it's like I've kind of gone the other way like what can I get out of like a little dose like a couple grams of mushroom or a single hit of acid you know or you know any of the other various you know psychedelics out there so I'm just kind of wondering like you know if maybe any of you guys have, it sounds like you haven't experienced any sort of push back from, you know, from this type of medicine in your life. Just keep pushing more and more forward. That's cool.

I mean, I can honestly say I have, especially back in the day when I first started, I was, I was everything, you know, I was trying different substances, Savvia, you know, Angels Trump or Dutura, you know, all sorts of different things, especially as I was traveling in Central and South America. And there was a time after, just going through, because it was also the nature in which I was doing it in hindsight. You know, I was doing it just to explore these different things. I wasn't actually doing it to try to, I wasn't using it as medicine. I wasn't trying to integrate it into different parts of my life.

My intent wasn't supportive of, you know, a practice in that sense. These days, you know, it's different from me because my intent is to develop a practice. and to explore different practices that can be beneficial to other people. So that's kind of been my intent and focused recently, so I haven't felt that in a long time. But, you know, I would, you know, just like everything else, set and setting, you know, when you push it too hard at some points, all of a sudden you're like, well, I'm just knocked on that store,

or I just almost knocked on, you know, losing my mind. You know, maybe I, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm done for me. I think I was definitely been me. I mean, I always thought that like the periods that I went without using those substances, you know, were actually like really big periods of growth for me. Where I took those experiences that I had, you know, and were able to reflect on like the things that were happening in my life, you know, combine them with past, you know, psychedelic experiences and really kind of, you know, kind of, you know, merge the two together. but, you know, for me, for some reason, it was just like there was, not only was there not like, you know, like a desire to want to do those for a time in my life. It was like a really big pushback.

And I, you know, and I've been doing a lot of thinking, you know, like internally a pushback and doing a lot of thinking of, you know, where that came from. What does that stem from? Like, you know, did my body, you know, it's like, it's like REM sleep, right? Like you're bringing all this information in. and then at night your brain, you know, sorts it all out and stores what it needs and gets rid of the things that it doesn't need. And so, you know, I started thinking about, you know, hallucinogenic experiences and, you know, I'm like, hey, I think it's good to have rest from stuff like that. And it helps your body kind of process and your mind process the experiences that you've had, you know. And I think your mind, you know, begins to speak to you, you know, maybe as much as the plant itself, you know, that it's time to process.

I think the, I think the best thing that you're bringing, Paul, is that at the end of the day, you remember, all of this stuff is so connected to the individual. And to start saying on a mat, like to, and I think that's why our stories and we have to share our stories and our experiences, because, yeah, there are themes that are going to come up and they're going to come up. and they're going to help direct on some level. But the individual has to do that work of realizing, like, yeah, if I'm just getting too much downloads and I'm not integrating it into my life, it's no longer serving me.

Like, again, I think at the end of the day, like these, this magic, this stuff serves us and it supports us. And if we do it too much or we're not integrating it into our lives, it can lead to some really dark places, right? I mean, we got to remember, this stuff is just as many good stories. there are hard and traumatic stories around the, you know, misuse of this stuff. So I think we just have to keep that in mind that the health of the individual is so paramount in knowing how to do work with this stuff and when to do it and what's right

for one person's not going to be right, right for the other. But I love ultimately you're saying is that we're working to get to that place where we kind of don't need it. I mean, that's kind of one of my goals on some level. And I love it because Ram Dass tells this story of his guru Maharaji. I'm sure if you follow Ram Dass, you've heard the story, right? Where he gives Maharaji the high dosage of LSD and he pops it and he doesn't experience anything because he just lives in that.

Like, that's attainable. I think that's really the reality. We don't need the medicine to get there. We don't need these things to get there. They can support us. But ultimately, if we're doing the work in our lives and we have a practice that's alignment without like our true identity, then we're going to find our ways to be able to show up to this world that's truly unique.

and beautiful and, dare I say, magical, like really at the end of the day. I agree. There's many paths up the mountain. Many, many ways. Yeah. You know, sometimes I listen to people, talk about mushrooms and, you know, like today, and it seems like a lot of this, like socially driven, you know, because it's like trendy.

It's like cool things to do. You know, like, hey, let's microdose. Let's macro dose. Let's mind ourselves. Let's heal ourselves from all our pain. And, you know, like what George was saying. earlier about like you know you know can you coach somebody while you are also you know um you know on on on a similar dose of as someone who's trying to find you know a solution to a problem

that they have while while you know on a hallucinogen and and so you know we i think i think like the practical experience of of hallucinogens um you know i think gets lost a lot in in just like youth oh yeah well I mean burning man culture burning man culture perfect example

I didn't start practicing until my mid-30s so I honestly I feel like I didn't have any of that stuff in my 20s I don't even know what that would be I'm glad I didn't but I can see like yeah

like that stuff it's God is dark side I kind of I find an interesting affair I've had an interesting affair with it where, you know, granted, you want to be responsible, and it's difficult to do when you're younger, probably,

just because everything's more difficult to be responsible when you're younger. But as I get older, like I see my use of psychedelics, particularly mushrooms, because that's pretty much one of the only ones I do. But it's a lot like the mushroom trip itself. For me, I'll do it like, I'll do it maybe six Saturdays in two months, and then I'll stop for a while. So for me, it's like, it's like the same way that the trip comes in waves. So too do I use it in a similar way.

And I didn't really think about that until I listen to you guys talk about it. And sometimes it's higher. You know, sometimes I do a run that's higher doses. And sometimes I'll just do a run of like an eighth or microdose for like six weeks or seven weeks. But now that I think about it, it usually manifests itself in the same way that the trip does. And I wonder if that has something to do with the individual's body chemistry. Paul had mentioned that, you know, your body felt a certain way. Your body was telling you to back off.

And Ben had mentioned, like, he's got his own governor on there. Like, maybe as an individual, the same way, the same mushrooms would make us trip differently or have a different trip. The same way do we regulate our own use of it. I wonder if it's something that's unique to the individual. Yeah, I think so. And it wasn't like I was having bad experiences when I was using it. You're just integrating it. Yeah, it was just like, you know, hey, it's done.

you know, I'm done for an hour. And that's done this last for years. Yeah, I can see that. While I reflected, you know, and I did a lot of reflection, you know. And actually, like, you know, really got deep within myself and started questioning, you know, like, what was the purpose for all? Right. You know, what, you know, did anything good come out, you know, on the other end? And a lot did.

I mean, a lot was good. I mean, from my very, one of my very earliest experiences. using LSD, I was like, you know, I don't even think you're born as a person until you've had some sort of psychedelic trip, you know? And it really, you know, dissolving the ego and actually accepting more than one idea. Like those were things that at my time,

at that time of my life, or like those are foreign, you know. And then, but I think there's a point where it's like, you know, so I listen to your guys' stories today and I'm just wondering, like, I think it's inevitable. that each one of people hit the wall at some point. I think I've already hit it.

Like I stopped doing them for a long, for a long period of time. And then, you know, for some reason I ran across them again, you know, and I don't know if it's that I found the mushrooms or the mushrooms found me or, you know. Symbiosis. Yeah, right? Symbiosis of some kind. Like when something shows up in your life, you know, I believe there's a bigger force talking to you. And maybe that's just me seeing the way the world, the way. I see it, but I think when things become evident, you start seeing this bumper sticker that's like,

God, this is like, I saw, my wife was telling me that some bumper sticker she saw. She's, she's like, oh, God, I've been seeing all this stuff about working with the coral reef, George. And I saw this bumper sticker the other day that said, you should be on a coral reef. So my wife's been seeing all this stuff. And I'm like, that's like the planet talking to you. She goes, yeah, I was sat on this job interview and I was just so, what the fuck am I doing here? I don't want to work here. And I'm like, so, you know, and I'm like, so, you know, and I'm like, so, you know,

I've had things happen like that in my life. And I really believe that there is a level of communication that everyone is open to if you're just willing to see it, to willing to understand the picture. And sometimes I think that that comes from the mushrooms and like a psychedelic experience. I think you're open. It's so it's like Ben was saying on some level when you get the flush of neurotransmitters, when the default mode network is switching. off in your brain and you're processing visual information in the language center and you're processing language in the vision center. I think that there's some residue that stays in your brain. There's some of those connections that don't fully unconnect after large trips or even smaller

trips. So you're rewiring your brain in a lot of ways. And if you, it's like, it's like, you know, learning a new language. If you want to learn a new language, you should be submerged in that language for a year. If I go to Spanish one and Spanish two and high. school and I do that class for 30 minutes once a day, I'm probably going to get nowhere near as close as I would to learn the language if I went to Mexico and lived there for six months. If you're submerged in something, you have to learn it because you have to. The same way where if you take psychedelics for a long period of time, I think that you're engaging new connections and you're keeping those connections tighter.

The same way memories are formed, right? Think about the process of memorization. if you read a paragraph 20 times, you're probably going to remember it versus if you read it one or two times. So if you take psychedelics 10 or 20 times, you're going to have that same connection between the visual cortex and language. So now, even though you don't have the psychedelics, you're going to begin to process information in that center of the brain.

So that, I think, is the language you're able to see out in the open. And I think that it fundamentally changes your brain. So I think you're able to read more cues, whether it's pheromones, whether it's brighter colors, whether it's some form of synesthesia. I think you're able to find out, you have a deeper connection and deeper communication with the planet, you know, in a weird sort of way.

And intent falls into that very strong. Yes, that's a great point. It's foundational to that. What's your intent to go down this path? And when you define that intent, especially to yourself, you know, you're going to create this. those neural pathways that are going to be reinforced by these experiences. You know, to what you're saying, Paul, like, I haven't actually taken mushrooms since

that story that I told you guys earlier, which was earlier in this year, like, February March, simply because I'm reflecting on that still. You know, so it's not something like, I'm just like, woo, who, what's the next, what's the next level here? Where can we go? You know, my, my process has been a continual one into George Point. It's been very, you know, it's. It's been an evident flow.

And that ebb and flow, whenever there's that ebb, that's that reflection period. And if I were to hypothesize by that, I would say that that reflection period is what we need to process and digest that information into meaningful changes into our lives. You know, whatever that intent that we set out to go down that path was, that's what we're looking for. And that's that reflection period that we take in order to then move to the next intent. I fully agree. So I'm on that same wavelength. Like I've been on this journey and it built up to this experience. And now like I have zero spark.

And I kind of rang guys. You're talking about like when you follow that spark, that little thing that your eye catches, like that's the life that you need to go pursue. That's the divine calling you out. And so I've been following the spark. And now I don't have like I have these sparks of like, okay, I learned a lot.

I need this stuff to start showing up in my life. now i need to figure out how do i take action on this what does this actually look like on this 3d plane how do i find that same kind of thing now because that was the whole point and so yeah i have zero intent to feel like a call to go any deeper i'm not saying i won't at any point but right now it's not like oh man i'm ready to go do that again like yeah i agree i think there there are these these heads and flows and walls and stopping in the process. You know, Ben, you know, several episodes ago, we were talking about, you know, psychedelics and if they could improve communication.

And I think you and I were having, like, a communication issue then where, you know, I was thinking that you were saying that, like, during, like, a shared hallucinogenic experience with somebody that you could sharpen or better communication. And I think I was saying, well, maybe that's true. but I think that in order to improve communication, because I think that was the topic of the podcast on that day, was that I think it's like, what is your intentions while you're having a hallucinogenic experience?

And then how are you able to build on that, you know, post experience? You know, that's where the real, like, you know, trying to hone your communication skills and being able to connect with other people on a deeper level, you know, not necessarily while you're having a shared experience, but afterwards, for me, it's always been, you know, the real work of, of, and it took me a long time because, like, you know, I started doing this stuff, you know, I don't know how old you guys are, but I'm 50. And, you know, so like in the 90s, when it was like, hey, you got to, like, call 100 people,

you know, in order to get some sort of, you know, psychedelic, you know, or you got to go somewhere, you know for me it was like me and my friends you know would go down like mission beach and san diego and just kind of like walk up and down the you know the you know the kind of boardwalk at night and wait for somebody on a skateboard or a bike to come by and say doses doses doses and follow that to a parking lot somewhere and then you buy these things and then you take them and so you know at first it was just about like you know um you know hey this is a really cool experience and I saw some wonderful things and had a really good time with my friends. And then over, it didn't take very long, but, you know, you start developing like the conversation

that we would have post peak was always better than the, you know, the buildup to the peak or the peak itself, you know, of the experience. And then so for me, it was always about like, how do I integrate these things? Some of these things that we discussed, these feelings that we shared, you know, between, between each other while we're having these experience and how can we put those things into like into like some real play in our lives? It was never about like,

became less and less about like partying and more and more about like implementing real change in your life. I think that seems to be a common theme for a good chunk of people that's psyched on us. At least for me it was, didn't have to set intentions after my first true trips, I think, because it was always about exploring the aspects in a very different perspective or just surrendering to the medicine.

It was more like that. So that was the priority. So even if there was a plan to, you know, have songs or speaker, those remain there as tool but it's not going to be used until the trip goes in that particular way so first let it be how it let's see how it is so that kind of takes

away the intent for me like I don't have to think about it because I I for sure know I don't know anything compared to what the medicine is going to show me so who am I to set intent well your intent is to be along for the ride Yes, I think, you know, it's like this. When you don't make a choice, you're making a choice to not make a choice.

It's pretty much that, yeah. I wonder, doesn't it kind of seem like, it seems to me like all of us have had this experience, what Paul just talked about, where it starts off as maybe something fun, and then it ends up in a conversation about something deeper. But in a weird way, couldn't that be considered like a rebirth? Like you've been reborn. Like you started off this world as a young, person to have fun and now you're beginning to get serious about it.

That seems like a cycle of life. That seems like a rebirth to me and it seems like something that the psychedelics help facilitate. Like maybe people are supposed to go through that and the psychedelics you're taking are just kind of grease in the track for you a little bit or allowing you to. 100% George. You know, I think I think a lot of like of myself like pre psychedelics, you know, like not over the new ideas, like a pretty rigid person in my thoughts. You know, real primitive, actually, is the best way to, you know, describe it.

You know, and then for me, it was like this, you know, bringing these new experiences in my life through the form of psychedelics, mainly LSD, you know, and I could feel it. Like, you know, on the other side, you know, two years later after a couple hundred, you know, hits of acid, you know, then you're like transformed into this person because every time I had a psychedelic experience. It was chipping away at some I believe some like rigidity in my life that needed to go like

some dead appendage. You know that was like holding me back as a person. You know and I think I got to a point where it was like my body was saying okay it's enough like you've made some tribes here, you know. So now it's time to reflect on those experiences and try to figure out

a way to use those things in a productive manner moving forward. And so like when I tell you like I just didn't like you know say hey I'm not into it I'm not going to take it I was it was pretty like like the thought of doing psychedelics would almost make me nauseous repulsive yeah well you know I think you know just like everything else that we observe around us and inside of us it's all cyclical you know we have we have our circadian run 24 hours cycle we have altradian cycles 90 minutes cycles we we see the ebbs and the flows of the season

of the rivers, of the seas, and all these different things that were surrounded by, as above so below. We talk about it quite often, but, you know, it has, I think there was a reason that the hermetic philosophers put it down as the first principle, right?

You know, it seems to be replete everywhere we look. And I think when we respect and honor that observation, we are able to proceed done various paths of whatever our intent is at a much larger pace at a greater pace at a greater rate of understanding yeah for sure I think for me too like one of the things that really draws me to them and this is something that I've come across lately because I've been doing a lot of it

lately like probably twice a month three times if I can manage to if my schedule will allow for it I mean I have I have a family and obligations and stuff like that. And so, and I think it's fair that I think anybody listening this should be, be honest with themselves and their family and the people around them. Like if you're hiding it, that's a huge problem. You know what I mean? Like you should be, if you're married or you have kids, you know,

you know, you should maybe don't have to tell your kids or anything, but you shouldn't be hiding it from like your wife or like, you shouldn't be trying to do this thing that people don't know about. So that's the first part. But I think over the last. two, maybe two and a half years, I've developed this relationship where I look at the high of mushrooms as a different environment. And because I go there so much, I feel I'm becoming more comfortable with that environment. I feel like I can get out and I can walk around and know the

area. The same way, if you went to a campground for the first time, you're like, I don't know where the bathrooms are or I don't know if I should ride my bike up that place. You know, but after you go there enough, even though there may be some new trees or a new trail, I feel comfortable walking around there. And that allows me to continue down a pathway of thinking that is usually only accessible there. Like, that's where I got a lot of ideas for my podcast. And not only a lot of the ideas, but the power to do them. Like, you know, I think a lot of us in our life, maybe not here, but maybe throughout the world is sometimes we're plagued by negativity. It surrounds us.

And sometimes that stuff can creep into you. And if you've lived a life for 48 years, you probably have these habits that you do. And I have found that the environment of the psychedelic experience allows me the courage to go outside and see the path that I could go down. And this brings in the time factor. I can be in a trip and be like, okay, I can feel really good about what I'm doing. but I can also visualize, and I mean literally visualize where I want to be, and I can see myself,

I can see myself make 10 different decisions and see where those 10 decisions would go. They may not be 100% accurate, but they're really, like, tangible visions of where it could be. And I can talk to myself in that way, like, hey, great job, you should have done that. And then all of a sudden, I can see another vision of it. Oh, well, you know what?

How about this? Or I'm feeling caught. I'm feeling skeptical about these decisions that I made, and then I can literally think myself down the trail of what would happen if I made those decisions. You know, and it seems to me like they're pretty damn clear, and they've given me the fortitude and the foresight to continue to do what I'm doing. And I mean, I know it's not just the mushroom or the psychedelic experience that have

allowed me to do it. However, I think it's a big part of it. And that to me is something that, you know, I don't want to abuse taking mushrooms or abuse the psychedelic experience. But for me, it's a very rich environment where I can continue to develop my creativity. And for me, like, that is the reason why I want to go deeper. That is the, that's the way I want to check out that path further. And I want to continue on that experience.

And I think it's very different than someone who is just doing it and not integrating. You know, I think that there's, that's two different routes there. But I wanted to explain, like, why I wanted to do it. So I'm really curious, Ben, whatever it is that you're building. And again, I'm so really curious about the conversation that we started about an hour ago. But because we just barely tip, but I'm really curious, how much of your life's direction right now and the things that you're building and your vision has come through your practice? Well, I can honestly say that it kicked off the journey.

My first experience was a 24 years old right before I turned 25. and it really kind of put me in it. It was one of those things where I thought I was smart, and then I realized just how unintelligent and unwise and unknowledgeable I was because I didn't even use the word smart anymore because I realized just how delinquent I was in my ability to comprehend the world around me. And that kicked off just a journey that eventually I ended up five, six years

in Central and South America. which was a very strong part of my anthogen journey, trudging through the jungles, digging up everything, picking mushrooms off the side of volcanic volcanoes, you know, all sorts of fun stuff. But, you know, the ideas were definitely related. I wouldn't have been able, you can't see if you don't understand something. It's like the old stories about the Native Americans and the indigenous people who were looking at ships and they thought they were clouds. because they had no concept of what a ship was. If you can't, you know, if you can't see the picture for what it is, that it's just the blur of, you know, it smudges of color or whatever.

But, you know, those magic eye pictures, when you stare at them for 15 minutes and then eventually you pull back, you're like, oh, it's a seahorse. Well. And so it's, I would say that, you know, it's definitely been integral into my path. Just that, and I'll be the first to admit, But most of it was just kind of dicked around to begin with.

Yeah. I didn't really get serious about anything until, you know, probably six, seven years ago. And then that's when I started writing my theory of information. That's when I, and then a few years after that, I did my book. And now I've been barreling down that path pretty, you know, it's pretty consuming at this point. Yeah. Well, it's just interesting. As you think about these stories that you hear now,

back what was happening in the late 60s and 70s and the boom of technology and the use of LSD and psychedelics and all of them were using it in some way, shape, or form as they're building this network that is the internet, that is our, like the reason we're talking is because of psychedelics. Like we just got to start to realize that. And now we're entering into this third wave. And so in the same way that we saw it in the like, again, when you reflect on the history, there was a therapy movement that was taking place, right? And there was the medicinal and there was, you know, freaking healing alcohol.

and all the stuff that was taking place. But at the same time, there was this technological advancement that was building up the next kind of movement. And I think that's happening now as well. I think you're seeing arms of the new movements of technology with this third wave just different. And there's going to be some stuff that's going to shift as the world shifts. And it's prepping us for this big shift that's getting ready to happen.

And there are people that sounds like you've been that are thinking very forward and on a different plain understanding this because of this movement that has been taking place over the last 10 years. Movement of the people. It is. It is. Because it's the medicine of the people. It belongs with them. That's right. Do you think like, so as we look at, you know, the cycle of history and we talk about how it doesn't repeat, but it rhymes, do you think there's a real possibility of a clampdown like there was in the 60s? Well, if one of the, goes off and gets the fancy idea to start a colt and gets a couple hundred thousand followers, yeah, there might be a little bit of clampdown. So you all keep it, keep it tight.

No more Larry. I think it will be just the access part and with respect to, George, you are doing an amazing job, by the way, trying to experiment with these things because we tend to assume the abuse factor, but it depends on it's an entirely new thing. So we could take it with a grain of salt or in the sense more of open-minded stance towards this and trying to be curious with it.

I think healthy dose of people need to go crazy with this because this will serve as a guideline towards what the future might look with respect to people trying to get into this. But a clampdown for sure will happen with a cult but just people trying to get access to this, it might be a little slower. That will be a lot of judgmental with respect to personal use. I don't know how it is taken because for me, I think I've been using it personally and I found it very beneficial that it provides me in a therapy setting

where I can face myself in a very different way. And so I think that part. What were you going to say, Jason? I was just going to say, I think it'll be interesting to see because we've gone a little bit far. And I think they're going to give us access to it. But we've got to remember that the government will never give up power. Like it is not in its nature to really give up power ever once it holds it. And so this current structure, if it continues on and the power structure, whatever that looks like,

it might give us the ability to have it, but it will maintain its power in some way. I mean, on some of us, like I do is like the civil rights movement, like, oh, yes, you have a quality, but no, you don't, right? Like, yes, we're going to give you power, but we're not going to give you power. So they're going to give it to us in some way. Like, I do think on some, you're going to see something happen. But there's going to be a clampdown in another area that we weren't even imagining to ensure that it maintains its control on the thing. So will there be a clamp down on the psychedelic specifically? I don't know. I think we're pretty far advanced. But I think we'll see clamp downs in some other pretty significant ways. Yeah. I wonder if like, you know, if we look at the past, not only the not only the 60s of psychedelics, but if we look at something more recent like cannabis, like the rules that were placed on there, like there were some odd ones. Like in some states, like you can't get a gun if you get a cannabis card.

And, you know, that's just a way. I think that's a way to stop people from getting guns, but also penalize the potting industry. and then there was this at first, like they didn't let, like, if you had a pot, if you were a distributor, you couldn't get really get a bank account. So you had to like hire a armored car or something like that. So I think that there's some lessons that may have happened recently with marijuana that could be, I wonder how that's going to affect. If I was a lawyer, I'd be looking at those laws to see how psychedelics is going to play out, right? Well, you'd be looking at who you can sue. to learn.

Yeah, I think, you know, the genie's out of the bottom in some essence, and I don't think it goes back in. You know, because you have to figure before when all of that originally started, the, you know, just the cultivation of this stuff didn't exist. Nobody knew what Uncle Ben's rice tech was, right? You know, until pretty recently. But now that whole thing has expanded to the point where people, or using auto claves, and they have these massive, you know, setups where the access and availability

and just the ease of, you know, it was kind of similar to what happened to Canada. Eventually, the knowledge got out of how to brogue this, and it was so profitable and so accessible that the state decided that they wanted the piece of the pie. And then when they came in, they made it so the laws, rules, and regulations really favored the people who were going to pay to play the game. the people who could afford the millions of dollars for all of the, you know, testing and packaging nuances and all this other stuff that really kind of made it. So all, and, you know, they sold it as, oh, you guys are going to have a business.

And all those people are out of business in most of the jurisdictions that have legalized animals. I think you'll see a similar process with psychedelics. You know, you're already kind of seeing similar things with creatum. Ketamines being shipped to people's doors, things like this. So as long as those people are paying their, you know, hundreds, if not millions of dollars in licensing fees and regular to regulatory bodies and all of this, they're allowed to play that game. But now that the genie is so far out of the bottle and everybody knows how to do these things, there's still those markets that will persist and grow. Yeah.

What about what do you go ahead, Paul, what you say? like you know what it takes to grow a lot of that stuff is pretty expensive I lost you guys died we lost you right there man what you gotta say it again what happened no I just kind of jumping in late my phone died oh okay well I mean you guys we're talking about like you know like the grow process of of mushrooms

you guys that what you guys were discussing sorry man I Part of it, yeah. I mean, it can be difficult, but you could also just go get a whole bunch of dirt, put it in a pressure cooker, pasteurize it, and sterilize it. And as long as you have some spores, you can grow mushrooms if you could create the right humidity environment for it, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think it can be tricky. Like, I mean, but it's, it's, if you're, if you are someone who is halfway decent at cultivating

stuff and you try it five or six times you're going to figure it out. It's tricky. And the mushroom, depending on what strain you're working with. Can be. Yeah. But guess what? You're going to figure it out. But to Ben's point, there's also how many YouTube videos with millions of views disseminating this information that didn't exist 15 years ago. Right. I mean, that's beautiful. That's the genie. Right. That's the genie getting out of the bottle. Like it is more and more accessible now to be growing mushrooms and talking about, it from whether they're Rishi or Lions Main, right? Like, there's also this movement of just

health in mushrooms. So people are going to want to start growing them at home. And then you, you know, at least Silsibin fits right into to that process. So, you know, at the end of the day, I think that's part of that. You give it to the people. You make it accessible. You can't clamp back down on that situation. But again, are they going to, are those that do it going to be demonized in some way? Or is there going to be something, you know, that kind of, you know, there's a shift on on public perception, right, on those that do? And is there going to be another smear campaign on, you know, people that do? And no, no, no, you should be taking this other pill that will make you feel so much better.

You don't need the psilocybin, right? So, yeah. Right. It's one of the one of the chemical constituents that's close to it that they patented. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then you would see like, oh, these ones go in the wild actually have a virus on them.

You probably shouldn't take those ones. Yeah, don't go in the wild. Well, they'll also be... They grew out of shit. They'll also be still, to this day, well, a lot of places that legalize cannabis, they can still drug test you and cancel your employment. Yeah, totally.

So, you know, they'll still be little regulations like that. You won't be working at Lockheed Martin. Because they do have tests for suicide these days. They're a little bit more expensive, but they exist, right? Now it moves out of your system pretty fast. What do you think about as far as a consciousness shift? Like it seems to me like when I take mushrooms, I am, I am, I find myself more in a spot that's anti-capitalism a little bit. And I don't know if that's the right word, but I feel like more involved with the love around me.

Well, we cannot spread the narrative that every time people take it. make mushrooms they become anti-capitalist. This is a bad idea. You're building the government's argument there, George. Yeah, exactly. Put on my government hat here. Hence the clapdown, right? Yeah, guys are going to become looking for you again.

I'm telling you, man. So, but in some level, I think it shifts consciousness to what really matters. And it seems to me that I care, I tend to think more about things that directly affect me, like my family and things I really care about and I'm passionate about, you know, after a trip or during a trip. And even that afterglow, that feeling of oneness, it seems to break you apart from the cold, hard ideology of money. It unclugs you from the monetary matrix. Yeah, yeah.

And so can we draw a parallel between the rise of psychedelics right now and this parallel of quiet quitting? Like, do you think that maybe these things are right? running together? Like, this shift that's happening is one in the same? Yeah, I think it's just a couple of variables of many. Okay. You know, I think, you know, another huge one is the lack of trust in information sources. You know, and then you have the, the polarizing right and left politics of most countries, conservative level politics of those countries. You know, I think there's a lot of factors that weigh into this. But I think if you were to graph it out, you'd probably system correlation.

I think it's really interesting to think, too, about how this idea that, you know, there is going to be, you know, the big question is like, is this shift that we're getting ready to go through going to be an entire breakdown of the system? Like, are we really on the edge of seeing a much bigger breakthrough? Or do we think that it's going to kind of continue to maintain the current reality? But to me, that's like, you know, if it's not this round, is it going to be at some point, this thing is going to come crashing down and we're going to have an evolution of the human race, right? I think we're definitely seeing the disintegration of nation states.

And I think, but with that, I don't think we're going to see a total collapse of the system, a lot because the people who have all the money invested in the system are very vested in keeping the system run. So that's a massive, big motivating factor. in the calculation of the momentum of the machine. Now, I think what we're already seeing and what we'll continue to see grow is a move towards decentralization. We've already, you know, seen the efforts to decentralize currencies. We're seeing the efforts to decentralize voting.

We're seeing the efforts to decentralize business structures. It's kind of in tune with what my Tara Libran project is. That's part of it as well. And I think we're going to continue to see the move towards decentralization because that's where people take back their liberty. That's where they regain your freedom of choice. Interesting. You're muted, George. All right.

So I have some options for you guys. I am having an incredible time right now. I feel like we're just kind of getting started here. But my wife gave me the tap on the shoulder, so I got to leave. But that doesn't mean you guys have to leave. If you guys want to continue, I can leave this running and you guys can talk. So what do you guys think? I'm going to actually go.

Okay. It's around 830 years, so I'm going to get ready for. I know. Tomorrow. Okay. Yeah. Nice. Well, then.

I think it's uncouth to steal another man's show. Agreed. Agreed. I think we can all sign off. Okay. I really enjoy it, you guys. And I feel like it's, I feel like we're growing together. And it's just so interesting to me to get to have.

all these people I respect together and get to hear different points of view and throw out questions. So thank you to every one of you. I really appreciate it. Before we go, let's just go around the horn and tell people what we're doing and where they can find us. So Ranga, what are you got coming up, man? What on the street is you have a podcast coming out one day? Uh-oh. Shame.

They're asking about the podcast. Well, we start this week. Okay. We start this week. I heard it. I heard it from the source. Yes. So that's there. And as I said, exploring other states, very curious of what is to come in the weekends. And then, yeah. Eventually facilitating, but it's quite some time away, I feel like.

Next year. Awesome. I love talking to you, buddy. And I am looking forward to the things that you have come. There's no doubt in my mind you can help a lot of people, man. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Yeah. Benjamin, where can people find you? What do you got coming up? And what are you excited about?

Benjamin C.George.com. Charlie Libre Project stuff should, near infographics should drop next week. But the podcast is getting there. Going to start filming not next week, but to follow in you for interview stuff. So gentlemen, you are all invited. Yeah. That's what I'm excited about. You know what?

like before I get to Paul and Jason, I wanted to say like, I'm so excited that like the way, but the what's app chat is turning out. Like in my mind, there's this idea I have where like we have our own network. Like, you know,

we know Kevin's got a book so we can have Kevin come on and hit everybody's podcast or, you know, I think that there's a real opportunity for us to build not only our, like in some ways, Ben, I think we're kind of building the Terra Libre project right here. You know what I mean?

Like everybody here has like a different skill and everybody is, successful in what they're doing, but they also add value to everybody else. And I don't have anywhere else in my life besides my family where that is. And so I just wanted to get that out there. I'm super stoked for that. So thank you to all you. Paul, what about you what you got going on, my friend? And I, if you want to get old of Paul, you should get a hold of me. But where can people find you out, Paul? Steal my joke. Find me on the True Life podcast on Sundays at Hawaii.

I mean, other than that, you really can't find me. So jealous, man. Jason, what about you, my friend? What do you got going on? Where can people find you? And what are you excited about? Yeah. Got probably the biggest thing going on is my podcast that I've been doing with my partner.

And Ranga, you don't have an excuse the other night. We literally were chilling in the bathtub. It was just Wednesday night, our podcast night. But we both had a long day and we're just chilling on the tub. And then we start talking like, oh, this is really good. Let's just record. So we turned on the record, like, just from our iPhone. Like the next episode will just be us talking in the bathroom.

tub. It's that easy to get your shit in this world. And it honestly doesn't matter who's listening because it's your practice, right? You're getting the word out. So that's our podcast. It's called Telling Secrets. You can find it on Spotify. And then, yeah, I'm pretty excited about doing, like you guys are saying that idea that you get these downloads and it gives you a blueprint for what you feel like the next steps are in your life. And that's where I'm at right now. I've got a blueprint and I'm beginning to build the thing that's going to become where I want to be. So I'm very much like in the building stages from the blueprint. But I've got it.

I have a lot of clarity and it's exciting. Yeah, it should be. Man, you're going to be great at it. I can, I mean, I got a good feeling and I'm sure that you have a good feeling going through it. It's awesome. And I really appreciate it. So that's what we got for today, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you so much for joining the True Life podcast. I'll put everybody's links in the show notes down there. and if you have any questions for any one of us, please feel free to check us out and see us next Sunday for the same thing. Okay, that's what we got. Aloha. All right, and I'll end it there. Oh, and there we are.