TrueLife - Healing is Killing Us - W/ Ranga

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Neoliberal psychopolitics is always coming up with more refined forms of exploitation. Countless self- management workshops, motivational retreats, and seminars on personality or mental training promise boundless self-optimization and heightened efficiency. They are steered by neoliberal techniques of domination, which aim to capitalize not just on working time but on the person him- or herself: all the attention the individual commands, and indeed his or her very life. Neoliberalism has discovered integral human being as the object of exploitation. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. I think today we live in a world of exhaustion. And it's defined by terms like burnout or depression or anxiety. And the remedies for that seem to be ways, like the magic word is called healing. I'm going to heal all these people. And regardless of it's like an SSRI or it's a retreat to South America or something,

it is this term that really means not healing, but like self-optimization. And this self-optimization is not something that is really, meant for you, the individual, to self-optimize. When we use the term healing, and I'm using it in the context that I spoke about a second ago, when it seems to me the term healing is more of a word that's interchangeable for therapeutically eliminating any sort of problems with performance. And that performance is not meant for you as the individual. It's meant for the system, the system in which we live.

And that's, it's kind of, it's kind of, like, in direct conflict with actually healing the person. The same way that antidepressants don't heal the person, they just make them available to live and be productive in the system. So too is the word healing, not really healing anybody. It's killing people. That's what I mean. I think you're muted. Sorry. The dogs were going crazy and am muted.

But thank you for explaining that I think it made it clear for me. And I agree with you on that because one of the major things of conventional therapy that I have sorted out or my partner has sorted out as always being driven towards productivity. Right? It's just they use work as a coping mechanism. instead of a particular drug. Let's say I'm going there for problems related to my weed consumption. They don't give you an actual solution of why it's happening in the first place. Rather, oh, you know, keep your weed away, take a sheet of paper, put on the plans for,

you want to play guitar, write down the plans 8 to 8.30, I'm going to play guitar. Even if you're not going to do it, sit with it. And then 8.30 to 9. And then, you know, you have the schedule for the day and make that list and, you know, follow that for a week. It's going to be good. And when I saw the list, it seemed much more empty than when I was on weed, right? And so I was seeing what was happening here is there is no individual,

there is no focus on the individual per se. Now we have models to help. And these models, again, everything is a feedback loop system, right? It's derived from a particular system and it goes back into the system. And there is going to be that sort of thing happening. So if productivity is generation's curse, at least my dad's generation, I feel like, were in a very tough situation. And for them, they didn't have any other life besides being productive at work, making money. And I understand the point of view.

For them that, you know, if you want to talk about in the spiritual terms, it would be karma yoga. If you're able to integrate that work and be with it and that could be used for liberation, right? but things are changing right now. There are a lot of people asking questions of why we need to do it, right? We are producing something. So you might be working in a place, I might be working in a place, and we are producing certain things. And rather than it's just a way to make money or keep me engaged or make life going, right?

Why? Why should we do that, right? That why is going to help a lot towards the healing of the individual, but the question why is missing in mainstream healing. So I feel like that leads to how you want to describe as killing. Because if you're not going to ask why, you're assuming something then. Because you have to scramble out all the plans that were given to you, which means you have to start fresh.

But we cannot start fresh. It's too difficult. And then a therapist is going to spend time with one client for so long. Then he cannot sustain himself because we are. we are caught up in these things. And when you're told healing is killing, on a physical sense, I saw, like, for example, you have a virus, right, that's, you know,

inside your body, let's term it, COVID. And then right now you take some vaccination or some medicine, let's say that is going to heal you. Obviously, it's going to kill the virus, right? So the question is, again, comes, who is it that happening to? So when we go to therapy, or is the therapy actually for me or the collective society as such. Same with antidepressant.

Like, again, as I say, every time I feel I haven't had the opportunity to interact with antidepressants. So I really don't know. I have a superficial knowledge from what people say. Most of them is what they have taken and they have shifted to, let's say, psychedelics are some other ways which are actually going to the root of the problem. and all they say is, yeah, antidepressants just kept me alive, barely alive, right? It takes away maybe the suicidal thoughts that it's not as bad as I've been describing it. So maybe I don't need to, I can give this a chance. But the feeling of I can give this a chance, it doesn't get better.

You just, you take pill every day and I feel like people just are like, yeah, I can give this a chance, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's really well said. And you brought up a lot of key points that I kind of want to dig into a little bit. The first is this idea of production as exploitation. You know, if we look back at slavery, why do we have slaves? We exploited them. We just brought in people that could do the work that no one wanted to do for free.

And then we'll make some money off of it. And you can apply the same mechanism for action, maybe not the exact same. But when you look at the workforce we have today, especially people without unions, you know, you see this exploitation of people. When I look at some of the Foxcon buildings and they have nets around them because people like to jump off and, you know, there's a lot of problems with quote unquote production. So I see it as self exploitation. I'm wondering, do you see the idea of production as exploitation? It's wonderful. two points that again that is pretty much present in my life right i i've been working in a company

right now which produces um aluminum parts right and now the other part that was important was the presence of union right this were these two are crucial because i i don't feel like i'm squeezed out of my thing you know um it seems unfair because when you see people getting squeezed out and you say okay at least i'm not right being exploited right so there is a bit of uh fight there to get me to say the statement but yeah i don't feel exploited because of the presence of union because the jobs that i have been searching right uh along the same lines let's say a machine operator of stuff and without a union like back in ontario the job rate where almost half the pay or ten dollars less than what they're paying with the union right and

And it's barely minimum wage. They give you this idea of minimum wage and it was, what, $14.5 or $15 in Ontario. And they say we provide more than minimum wage and it's $17, right? And if you see that lack of union leads to this. And they in turn explain this exploitation by saying that you're replaceable. That's the only thing. As much as it seems that you are replaceable, you can be exploited. That's how at least the system has itself come out to be.

And in some way, it is going to work like that. You cannot change the core of the structure. Because if no one is come, unlike the periods of slavery or heavily caste-based system. Cast-based system is, again, a form of slavery. So jobs that you don't want to essentially do, you allocate a separate caste or a slave to get them to do. and I mean if you don't have to pay for it well and good because when I take my garbage out, I'm not making money. So why should I pay you?

So I'm going to create a slave who's going to do it for free, right? And maybe I'll give some food if I can and so on. But coming back to what you even mentioned about neoliberalism and stuff, right? The free market, how it is seen in a positive side, it's not actually entirely positive, yet it is much better than how it was before in the sense that. in the sense that as an individual you get a choice you can quit right no one is forcing you no one is at least let's say in western countries like i no one compelled me to work in a company that paid me half of what it's paying me right now so i did it out of choice right but it's also the part

that yes i am getting exploited but no one is exploiting me because i i also participate in this i can withdraw because the system is that way someone else is is in a much bad condition than me, who needs barely anything, who is not even making money. For them, this is going to be golden. And that, that, that, that desire for that other person is being exploited here. I wouldn't even call it desire because it is sometimes basic necessity to provide, you know, survival to do the actual work, which we can, we can talk later. But yeah.

I love it. I'm curious. Like, it seems to me, though, do you really have a choice? Isn't it kind of the illusion of choice? Like you could work at this place or you can work at that place, but you got to go work at one of these places. Like I guess on some level, you could start your own business and become a billionaire.

But the chances of that actually happening, like I think that that is one of the great lies that's perpetrated upon people is this idea that, you know, if you have the same opportunity of, you have the same opportunities. Like that's complete bullshit to me. me. And it seems to me that this is a layer that we just layer on top for everybody to believe.

Like, listen, you could, you could be president or you could run the Fed one day. It doesn't matter if your parents got divorced. That doesn't matter. All that matters is that you have, like, that's the beginning of the exploitation at such a young age that allows people to believe that they actually have a choice. What do you think about that? It's a great way to put it. And yeah, one of the most brainwomenes. washing things that is at least happening right now. Every other post that I keep seeing, maybe it's tailor made for me, but it's this, you should have a passive income or everyone should be an entrepreneur or everyone should be, you know, it just doesn't work that way. You know,

I saw this article and this is one of the popular newspapers in Canada. I mean, I've stopped reading news once in a while. The titles are quite intriguing, right? So I was looking and it says how this guy uses his Costco membership to make 3,000, 4,000 profits and he has this 30 to 40,000 subscribers on YouTube. And this plan, he said, I have a very simple technique. And I agree with it. It's a very simple technique. And it is, yeah, you just have a Costco membership and you have an Amazon reseller

membership, which is $60 plus $40,000. And you buy all these cheap products and then sell it market by 50% or something. And put it on Amazon. and he makes $4,000 a day, right? Wow. Right? There are so many perceptions to that. First of all, I wouldn't do that because of my own morality issues.

But second of all, when you, it's because of this multiplicity of 8 billion people, we are not able to see who we are really stamping. You know, in a room of five people, when we apply the theory of capitalism, or whatever you want to call, even the real estate that's happening, when you really see in a group of five people, right five people is the total world and you see person one buys real estate person two is not able to buy because he doesn't have so he rents a thumb right to him and what is he doing is that he gets a mortgage the person one gets a

mortgage and he raises the price and gives two person two he makes the profit why is he making the profit because there is no reason to there is no reason to essentially, but this is much more clearer with a lesser number of people, the exploitations that are happening. But on a global friend, these get masked because of just the colliding of so much of interactions, right? The interdynamics marks all these terrible, terrible things that we do in the name of, it's fine, right?

And to come to your question that do we really have a choice that takes me back to my five grams episode, five grams, strums. right nice and it always um it's like dillics takes me there the choice comes at the primal level right you're saying we should go to either this job or that job but go one level before that again we are working on the assumption that i need to have a roof i need to be able to provide for my family i need to do so and so and so i need to even sustain myself for tomorrow so what if my goal is to die tonight right then i can let go of all these and true there is freedom in that. So I can make a choice not to do anything. Again, there is a lot of

problems directly facing the fear of death, right? But the point is not to abandon everything and go, but to realize there is a truer choice at the core of her being that no one is in compulsion to do anything. We can namesake have bondages, things that we do, plans that we have, and we are acting on fear of death. But at the deeper level, if we understand that we can stop this at any single point, like I can stop doing this. I can stop this podcast. I can say, fuck off.

I can go to whatever I want, do whatever I want. And after that, whatever happens, it happens in a sense of gratitude. You're just grateful it's happening. Because I am dead. That's what I think it also, at the talk. of discussion went last time after the shrooms talking to my parents about that, right? It's just that part where when we truly accept that I'm okay to die, right? After that, whatever happens, wait, I could have died because this is what happened in my life

three years back where, you know, we took this a small cylinder, a small stove top, right? It's just this bit. And we took it to the camping site and out of five of us, four of us knew how we didn't know how to use it. The one person who knew was 15 meters away, right? We didn't fit the stout off properly and the gas was leaking and we thought it was normal and we were lighting, lighting, fortunately the lighter didn't work and then he came running, he saw what it was. I'm happy that he had the courage to come because he said, do not do that and you know, took it and that moment that was this feeling that what if we actually died like why can't we start

taking and it's easier said that done of course because there is so much righteousness going on every single day but at least having that shift in perspective to acknowledge that can give the freedom so from

that maybe we can have the choice maybe I want to do the job or maybe I don't and then the feeling of exploitation might be perceived in a different way maybe it will be seen as a healthy compromise right now that's how I see it I work Monday to Thursday and then Friday to Sunday I'm good.

Like I, there were a lot of days after my Cygbillic trip. I didn't want to work. I didn't. And I also add the idea that I didn't want to depend on. So the only way was for me to go and, there are Rupasana centers, right, where you can go and volunteer and they'll have you. You serve them. You don't need anything.

You don't need to take anything. But I still add preferences in my life. That's the work that I got to do with myself. I still liked putting on my headphones and listening. to Pink Floyd or having the milkshake once in a while or this pop-wise chicken once in a well and all these sorts of things made me not just completely give this lifestyle and go. Therefore, I knew I didn't want to work yet I wanted to provide for myself to do the work to let go of this thing.

And now I've come to a balance of these things where I would see it as an LT sacrifice rather than being exploited or I'm doing it out of choice, right? Like, I see it that way. Yeah, that's well put. And I admire so much of what you said in there. It seems to me that, like, I enjoy providing value for myself and my family. And I enjoy contributing to the community. What I don't enjoy is people taking money out of my check before I even get it.

What I don't enjoy is people taking that money and saying, we're going to do whatever we want with it. What I don't enjoy is at the end of the year when the IRS audits me and they're like, Hey, dummy, you didn't pay enough money. You know, and it's like, okay, wait a minute. Why am I giving you guys money again? Doesn't it say somewhere in this document that, I'm not even sure, but first off, I'm not even sure if what you're claiming is in that document means the same thing.

But I am pretty sure that at least I should have some say in where that money goes. I'm pretty sure that today in this world, we can just do it online. Like, I want this percentage to go to my roads. I want this percentage to go to this. You know, I think that that is where we begin. Maybe it's this introduction of money that introduces the idea of exploitation because now we have this made up medium of exchange that is there. So maybe that is the foundation of the exploitation.

The reason I bring all this up, and I think it's all relevant, is that what I see happening in the world, like to your parents who didn't really, they just did it. Same with my parents. Like, my parents kind of did it, but that, you know, you get up and you just go because you didn't know. Like I see the same. I see a transformation happening. And I see it happening in the world, beginning in this, like things that, like we've lived in this idea of industrial added value.

And that is going away. There is no more industrial added value. And I think what we're seeing now is the idea of the exploitation of the mind. Okay. And if you just for a moment think about the world, the age that we lived in of industrialization. Like that part, we're moving into this new age. But the same process of exploitation is going to start happening in the mind. And that's why you see people talking about retreats.

That's why you see people talking about healing. And that was the point of healing is killing, is that we it's not if you just change don't think about the actual words healing just think about the strategy that was implemented in exploitation in the workforce whether it's due taxes or whether it's through not having unions but this exploitation of people to get them to do what you want to provide an actual tangible thing that's going away and being moved into the idea of the ephemeral like the idea we're exploiting the mind now instead of exploiting the person what do you think about that i'm still trying to wrap my mind

around the part of yeah industrialization yes one of the things uh that was definitely happening right like with respect to the global economy right the country's uh success is based on how much the people consume what a badness right it's it's i think it's it's just it's illness it's on some level of mental illness. And now that is being identified and sorted. And again, we will always keep falling from one dominant ego to one settler ego. That's how I feel. Collectively as such, individually as such, and having experienced, Barry, get trapped. What am I trying to do? Right. I feel like that's just a natural step in the process. So it could be based on how we want to see it, it could be seen as evil or it could be seen as a very healthy step as well.

But I mean, I've been reading about what is this part. You know, when I talk about money, I've been really upset about the invention of money, let's say, our money being in the people's hand. Ever since I think psychedelics, it was hard. For one year, I think I hated money like anything. Then I started resolving that part within myself that, again, I do have a perception that everything is neutral as such. it's the human interaction that makes it, you know. Same with the plant, right? It's either poisonous or, you know, a medicine based on how it interacts with us.

The same plant that could be medicinal for us, could be poisonous for things. So in the plant as such as neutral, how we are interacting with it makes it whatever terms we give. So all the, I think this song comes in money, pink fly. And even it's a common saying that I've heard money is the root of, all evil. The love of money is the root of all evil. The love of money. I think that's a better way to put it.

Yeah. So that's what I think. I was saying money was the root of all evil. Now, I think the greed for money is what is the root of all evil, right? So that perspective changed within me. So money seemed being the thing, we are interacting with money, right?

Right. And that's the part. Then I try to get to a point. my mind goes faster in a circle and comes to the same point where like, I mean, it is happening as it is. You know, like if I were there, I would have done the same. If I was on the side of the exploiter, I would have exploited. If I'm side of the victim, yeah, I would have been victimized. I'm just at the park where I just feel like I got this blue pill to escape out of the matrix.

But coming to your question, I would like to get one more. view of that question, what you said with respect to people are using mind to exploit the mind rather than the person, individual access. Would you like to repeat that in a different way, I guess? So I think the way, I guess I could be, let me think about it for a second. So the same way that the exploitation, of, this is just my opinion. I don't know this to be factored in me.

This is how I'm thinking. In my mind, the same way that industrialization has exploited the working people. And by working people, I mean the majority of the masses. If you get up, like, there's definitely different classes, same as in India as in America. We have this idea that we don't, but we do.

So I think that the lower down you are on the socioeconomic ladder, the more exploited you are. And so the same way that has been done over the last 200 years with industrialization, I believe we are moving into a new phase where we're going to see not just exploiting the worker. Like there used to be children workers. Hey, let these kids go to work or, hey, sorry you lost an arm, buddy, but get back in there. You still work that machine. You know, like that is the exploitation I mean.

And I think money is a direct like money is a point is like the hammer they use to is a tool they use to exploit. But the actual exploitation of the people, like people are being exploited. They feel like they have to go. Like they feel like they don't have a choice. So I think that this physical exploitation like having children workers or having people work 15 hours a day for five bucks an hour or having people come in from other countries to work for very low wages, like that type of exploitation. I think that is being applied, and maybe it always has, but maybe now it's being applied to healing, being applied to this new world of the mind, the psyche. And I'm just, I see how that has, like, exploitation has physically hurt people in the real world. And I see this new form of exploitation is like, even though it may seem more gentle, it's just as destructive.

And I see that with the language out in the world, like retreats. People are going on these retreats or people are going to these healing seminars for self-optimization. What they're really doing is they're exploiting their own mind. They're getting their ego to fight itself. The battle is in your mind. And maybe it has always been, but the battle now more than ever is in the mind than it is in the physical reality. Yes, in that way, I think it's definitely an exploitation. It was very nice hearing you say that one by one.

And yes, of course, it's like the first time some medicine comes into the market and big farmers, like this can solve your problems. And, you know, I mean, the more desperate you are, it's based on demand. I will try to reduce the supply, increase the demand, increase the price and so on. If there is too much supply, I will create the demand by doing these things. The same way, it's playing that savior role. I'm going to save, right? Yes.

And it is not done at individual level somehow. It does come in a collective sense. Yet, yes, all these retreats, right? Retreats are now seen as like this holy place of sanctioned. What holy place that you, yeah, it's definitely going to work. But retreat as such is as simple as like, you know, when you retreat from a fight, you retreat from a war, right? Yeah, you run away.

Yes. And in that essence, retreat is such that. retreating from life as we know it. So that retreat that we are trying to seek shouldn't be as fun because the life we ask we know is based on ideas and expectations. Like when I go to meditation, I know meditation, Vipasana meditation is beautiful because I hate it because I go with these ideas, right? I hate it.

Who the fuck sits there 10 hours a day with their eyes closed and I cannot move? It's crazy. But I know it's valuable. right and if the same thing is happening with all these oh we have this nice surrounding with this cushiony bed and so on and it's appealing you see and i feel like it's it's the contradiction that should be there it's all paradoxical right in that sense when you said money is the tool that is used to oppressed that's the most interesting and funny thing about money money is also the reward that they are seeking yet money is the tool that they are using that that flaw is what creates

rich become richer poor and it's it all comes from one of these things that I've been I think ever since the status I've been following a couple of people who are working on this let's say anti-capitalist idea right I wouldn't get

myself fooled by labels but I wanted to see what points do they have and all the discussions that comes from yes we have forgotten to help other people without expecting anything in return that's the fundamental flaw of where we are at right now.

Because we didn't, when we didn't know to write or to keep track of things, right, we didn't give something based on like, hopefully you give it to me. And even if we said that it was in a funnier tone, right? Then it became, why not could it be serious? I'm serious. You got to return this in a week. Then it became like, I'll write this down so that you don't forget. And then I'll write this down and have a witness.

it. And then now it's a detailed contract with a fine print, right, which you cannot read. I know so that I can exploit you. Now, it's this slow evolution of how it has happened. So we completely forgot that the first form of help that humans were doing was help in that sense is that help without expecting anything. Now, we have to use 18 such words put together to convey the normal meaning of health. Help is not a business, but help is seen as a business. You know, retreat is, I've talked to people and mostly it's about, it's about sustaining myself in the process. That's what it starts. Yet the funny thing is that your sustaining is based on your own comfort level.

So if you're going to help people from, you know, the lowest of economic classes and you're sitting up top there, you're going to exploit them to just satisfy your comfort level. Right. I'm living in a house of $2,200 rent. So if I'm going to start something, a business and so on, right? And the first thing is going to be like, oh, I got to first make this to pay my rent. And this seems like something that I need to do. In essence, when I sit with myself and I ask, I don't want to do that.

Because this house is a comfort for myself. And the person I'm helping shouldn't be paying me for this. it's not his job and when we go even back that's where I get like we should be able to get ourselves to help without expecting anything written of course I have you know whatever

in the times of Buddha they did they would sit and meditate and yes I'm just going to get arms if you have something that I can eat do give me if not it's okay no I'm not going to sit here and curse at you and the same way I will help you if you can help something in return

right and so if you have that kind of system, right? Like, if it happens at individual level, you wouldn't have non-profits. You wouldn't have for-profits. Now, those are all terms of joke because everyone could operate in the sense that if everyone is eventually getting to operate on a donation-based system, right? Like, help what you can, right? And this is also, this topic, I think, I had a conversation with my friend, and it's interesting to get a different perception. It's because sometimes people do not appreciate when it's available for free and I agree it's again it's all lack of awareness at individual level if we were able to truly understand that this is valuable it is

not valuable because I paid so-and-so price then we start using it and start you know paying respect to it rather than oh this was some I think the conversation with my friend was about like there are so many free platforms yet those are not used as much as the platforms that are provided for ten dollars right and And that's happening because I have paid for it, so I can keep track of it, right? And all these things. But eventually, if we go down to our route, if you are able to create that time in the morning or the evening to sit with ourselves, we see, we don't really, there are a lot of resources the world is trying to help, right?

And if we start doing that, our search for money to get other things, to sustain comfort level, kind of reduces. And that's how I see at least my life going. eventually if we can get there and provide service, don't expect anything, right? It seems hard at the beginning because we say things like my time is valuable. Why is my time valuable? Time is not valuable. It's only valuable when there are three, four competitions for you. Because if there is no one who is coming to you for talking, your time is not valuable.

Now, suddenly you have 10 people, you have to sort out. Now money becomes a criteria, right? And we do not do it based on luck based because, I mean, if I can get some money and someone is giving me, why not, right? That's the idea that we have. And this, I think, I don't know if I mentioned when we go to Lake Lewis in this national park band, you literally have to go around two kilometers if there is no parking spot. You go there and if there is no parking spot, they send you.

You don't stay for five seconds. You don't stay for two seconds. You don't ask them. can I just wait in the corner? Nothing. It's the same for everyone. Keep on moving. And if by luck it happens that a car goes and you go, it's good.

And as much as can get you frustrated, you seem there is a equality in it. The equality arises when you have equal chances of getting destroyed. Right? In any aspect. And that's beautiful. That needs to be there. But in India, one of the things that I learned growing up is

bribery. Bribery is major in India. Like, if you are a little bit, yeah. I think I haven't outright seen it here because I haven't gotten into what it is, but coming back from India, everything, like my passport application that goes to the, so the police station it goes to, they will do a security background check, right? They do not do it until they get $8 or $10. And it's funny, it's like they're not supposed to get that, right?

But they don't move the file. My file was sitting there for two months, and I had to process it. And at that point, it's about, I mean, I use this passport to do bigger things in life. I wouldn't be able to go to Canada without it. So for me, $8 is, that's something I'm going to spend. But this is how it creates a change, right? And we get convinced that bribery works. Like, we can convince someone.

Like, that guy doesn't have something that I have, that I can use. And we play this game of monopoly, right? like we'll exchange these things and each thing at its individual level seems so harmless right if there is no crowd and there is just one spot and I'm there and he says

something and I say I'll give you $10 just give me this part in that minute setting of two minutes it seems harmless but collectively as you see nothing is harmless everything is so harmful so the moment we start acting any form of reaction

starts so coming back all around to mind thing. Of course, there's going to be a lot of exploitation. The name of help it starts. And I think it's a genuine interest in helping. Yet somehow, if we do not do our own work with respect to our own subconscious, I think we can get misguided. That's really well put, man.

I'm, thanks for that. Like, it seems that it's this ripple in the pond. Like, you throw the stone in and there's all these ripples. And I like to believe that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Yeah. You know, when we start, I think that regardless of what is true enough, that that's the better way to think about it is like, I bet you there's people that started off with good intentions, you know, and that's probably how this happened. It just leads you to a better spot. I want to tell you a story and then I want to get your understanding.

I'm going to tell you a story and then ask you some questions about the story. So it's, it's a thought exercise and also maybe some comprehension in here. Okay. So there's this wise old man. It's like the wisest man in this country. And he is long disappeared and moved way out into the country. And people only hear stories about him. And sometimes they hear the stories like all people that die.

These are all people that disappear. These stories evolve and they grow up around him. And this guy's story is that he has this magical demon that can do anything for him. And he's the richest man that has ever existed because he found. this magical demon that serves them. And so these young boys growing up, they've heard this for, the story's been there for generations.

And these young warrior-type boys decide one day, at the age of 16, we're going to go find this guy, get his demon, we'll become the richest people. And so they, they gather up all the stories from the elders, and they leave their village,

and they hike way out three days, four days, five days. They began losing hope, when all of a sudden they see this, strange, iridescent, invisible type of monstrosity out of the corner of their eye. And they turn and they see something. And they start, they begin following that direction. And as they do, the path, the, you know, the Warren path of bushes and dirt begin to give way to this golden brick.

And they follow the golden brick until they see this palace and all these jewels. And they come upon this old man standing in the back. of the palace fishing in his coy pond, just, you know, and they are just like, wow, look at this ostentatious amount of wealth. And the oldest boy comes up and he says, are you the fabled guru who found a magic demon? And the guy says, it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. I am that man. And I do have a magic demon.

And the boys say, well, we're here to take it. You can be gone, old man. We're here for the demon. and we will take him over and we will become the richest. And the old man says, thank goodness. So stoked someone here. Thank you. And he goes, before I leave, let me give you some hints on how to deal with this demon.

This demon will give you anything you've ever wanted in your life. But if you don't keep them challenged, this demon will kill you. Have a nice day. I'll be down at the pond when you need to come and get me and give me back the demon. The boys are like, this guy's a retard I'm not going to give you back your demon man Look how much wealth you have Look at all this

And so the three boys get together And they go okay So the man points him to where the demon is And then he leaves So the boys go into the palace And they see this demon He's like the size of an aunt And they're like hey demon

We want a palace twice this size And we want a bunch of cars that go with it in a big room of money. And they're like, yeah. And the demon's like, it is my command. And so the boys sitting around their high five. And they're like, yeah, we did it, man. And before they can even get out of third sentence,

the demon comes back and he says it's done. And they're like, what? The demon says, it's done. And he's kind of getting a little angry. It's done. I told you it's done. So the boys go over there and they see this palace. It's bigger than they've ever thought.

Room full of money. They're like, oh, okay. He's like, now what is your desire? And so the boys say, well, we want, we want a bunch of helicopters, and we want an entire set of arms in a giant military. And we want that to be put on the other side of this palace. And we want four more palaces. The boys are like, yeah, before they can even understand, before they can even congratulate themselves and walk to the palace, the demon comes back. And he's like, I'm done.

Now what? And the boys begin to notice that every time they ask for something, it happens almost. instantaneously. But the longer they take, the more upset the demon gets. And he grows bigger and bigger and bigger. And within a matter of hours, the demon is like 50 feet tall. And he's looking at them like, what now? Now what should I do? You know, and he's like, I'm going to kill you unless you tell me what to do. And the boys are like, ah, you know, because they realize that this idea of their imagination of what they wanted was so petty. They don't understand the power. They don't understand. So one of the boys runs down and he grabs the old man from the ocean, we're in trouble. And the old man comes running

back and he pulls a hair from his head and he gives it to the demon. He says, I want you to split this into a million parts. And the demon begins to shrink smaller and smaller and smaller because he's just splitting hairs. So the moral of that story is like, are we, like there's people who sit at the height of power. There's people that actually run countries. There's people that run government organizations or non-government organizations. There's people. that are in control of the money supply, whether you want to believe it's conspiracy or not, these are facts. People sit, there's heads of governments, there's heads of giant corporations that are responsible for millions of people. And so isn't it okay to exploit people? If you're

one of these people, don't you have to look at it like, well, some of these dummies are going to die and yep, these drugs are probably not good for people, but they make people much more productive. And, you know, when you start beginning to understand it at that level, you start to begin to understand the medical stories that we have. Like, like depression medicine is not made. Like, it's not made to cure depression. You know, people think that it is, but it's made to make you more productive. All these drugs that we have in the world, they're not there for the cure you think. They're there for the cure to make you productive. They're there to make you effective. They're there for the system. And the people at the very top probably have good intentions. Some of

Some of them are probably psychopaths. But that is what is happening. On a grand scale, when you can look at all the data and it's unfortunate that you probably have to see people as numbers, but like that is this idea of real exploitation, is the fact that there are old men that see humankind collectively as a demon and will raise up and murder you unless you exploit it. Do you think if you were the person at the top, Ranga, that you would be able to exploit people the way people are being exploited now.

You asked this question a little too late for this lifetime, so I have to die and reborn with a completely different mindset because I do not think I want anything to do of those sorts. So I cannot put myself to imagine what I would do there. I simply would not be there. That's what I can think of. You're going to be there one day. So just we'll always remember this story.

No, I will recede everything, every single time. You know, I know which drawers I hide my drugs that take me to giving up everything. You know, that's what when you said psychilics can help people make productive, I mean, can increase productivity. It doesn't necessarily be true because I'm a very unproductive person. I do not want to produce anymore. I want to stay as still as I can. So it won't lead to productivity.

It can put you in a state of joy, but who is it going to benefit if it's not contributing to anything overall, right? So leaving that alone, coming back to that story, that story was amazing. Yes, towards the end, I was able to see where you were going with it. But it's quite good. And one important statement that you said was these kids didn't understand what they were asking for, they were chasing this with a petty mindset, right?

And I think collectively we have that right now because most of us, at least at this point, what I'm trying is that the millionaire status, like how to become a millionaire, or how to have this passive income. How to, how to, how to.

We are working on somebody's assumption, right? You know, this quote is very nice from Carl Young. he says if the path is clear before you, you're probably on someone else's path, right? And it's so true. Yeah.

I like it. And it's quite true because if I look back and if I ask myself, I didn't know what I wanted in life. And I talk with people and sometimes maybe it's my limited perception, but I get the feeling that they also don't know what they want. they truly at their deeper level, they do not know what they want because when you go to the lowest, most socioeconomic status as we were talking before, right? You can see a genuine sense of happiness that's missing out in the middle class and the as it goes stop because now it has become so much of conceptual game. Sometimes when you strip away everything, sometimes you'll be happy.

We just simply do not accept that fact because if you're trying to make your ends meet for the end of the day, right? like you get that bread for the end of the day and that's it that that seems god to you but right now so much things right like all i see in my life is how much do i take for granted because it's coming so easily right so easily into my life right so that's one of the point to make it where can i make this uncomfortable right it's boring when it's convenient like what what can i what can i do right and in that sense coming to your question about

the people in hierarchy power right we all have these ideas within us right now all these demons and angels within us and as they go into this societal political game it is just they are making themselves polarized

they do not want to because once you say a particular statement and you see that it's gaining traction with a set of people and you want to grow that number of people, right? And you do not want to say something contradicting to it. That's why there is a lot of appreciation that goes into it. Right. Like, if you truly do not care what people think, but that's also something they can't do.

Because that's how it is made. Like, you have to be serious. You have to, you know, I don't know what's going on. That's why I said I'm nowhere good to do that sort of thing. Because as I say, when we are at a particular state, If you wake me up to 2 a.m. And you ask me, I'll talk about rubbish about consciousness, as I said. Right.

I'll talk to you about rubbish. And that's what I want to be. And whatever books I read, all self-help books or spiritual books, one of the best things they talk about is I do not prepare. I empty my mind before going into something so that I can receive and respond. Right. It goes back to, I'm sorry, just once again. Yeah, no problem, man.

There's no problem. There's no problem. Sorry. There's no problem, man. I don't mind at all. I don't let little things bother me. Once we stop working on assumption, I think it will be, it'll be much more helpful, right? Once we agree, we don't know what we want.

And it's very hard because we, mostly we are convinced we know what we want. And most of the times when we don't know what we want, it's a seem as a low self-esteem, low self-confidence. and slow drive towards some things. Those are termed as, you know, low motivation to do stuff. I would love it. If I have zero motivation to do something, which means I'm harmonious with whatever happening. That's how I see it.

But I do see it like that once upon a time, right? So again, that changes a lot to do with suffering, having these discussions out there, just being able to give people a little bit more room to play with their ideas. It's not one thing. I sometimes want to take an extreme polarized opinion on certain aspects, right? Like I would say, if you're thinking about, if you already have, you know, six-digit yearly

income and you're thinking about, you know, millionist, it is, there is some problem going on with you. There is something wrong with you. I just assume that it's for me own sanity as well as like, get to look onto yourself. because when you take the whole of the population and if you see the average income or how people are living, it's, I would say my life is so comfortable up there and all the people that we see on social media complaining, right? Just keep having the privilege to get on social media to post makes the post invalid. That's how it is.

So, and I know it is a polarized opinion, but right now we, what I see is trying to bringing the balance to the center of like maybe money shouldn't be a priority. Maybe we shouldn't have the idea that having that particular set of money, let's say retirement package or something or whatever you want to call, right? Shouldn't be a bother because we do have a lot of lot and lots of institutions, lots of places. Like in India, there are a lot of temples that provide food, right? like we think we live a particular kind of life that I need to be in an old age home. No, you can go to streets. You can live in streets.

You didn't know that because people don't talk about that. You can live in street. I can live in street. My retirement plan is living in streets. It's fine. Whatever you, I get, I eat. I don't, I don't want to use medical usage after a point because I don't care. Whatever time I live, but we're driving.

We have not come to that point of asking question. How much do we want to live? because we have not asked the question why we are living. We are assuming that we are living for this and therefore we need to live longer to get this done. And this is one of the topics I think Benjamin and I were talking last weekend in his podcast of is there a purpose, right? And sometimes not having purpose, at least in my head, that's how it works.

Not having purpose brings so much magic to the present moment. Because the moment there is purpose, you're focused. I'm going to drink coffee. There is a lot of focus going to this particular cup that I'm grabbing and taking. But what is, I do not have that, right? So now it's free. The mind is free to do this. But in order to get there, I feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done

because lots of subconscious is doing automatic work. The same same way your digestion and so on is happening. Your brain is also automatically doing a lot of things. we're so such tiny little things in in a different dimension altogether right yeah but yeah i think since i went and took my dog out i might have jumped a lot of topics but it's perfect man not it's perfect it's this reminds me of you know the when you when we talk about purpose and we think about that word it seems to me i'll put another word in there too like judgment like these things, they're so affected by the uninterrupted presence of the visible.

You know what I mean by that? Like, wherever you look, there's a billboard. There's a sound. There's a beeping. There is a pretty girl on a magazine. There's a really thin person on a magazine. There's a person with blue hair that hates these people. You know, there's all this.

It's like an uninterrupted presence of the visible. It's always there. You know, unless you have some quiet contemplation and meditation or you have a place where you go where you just see the landscape, from your walk to your house to your work, there's this, there's this incredible presence of the visible. And I would argue it's almost pornographic because it's always there. The same way that when we hear music, it's not the music we hear, but it's the silence between the sounds that make it harmonious. So too is the, the invisibility in the visible. But if you don't have that invisibility, you don't have music. You just have a brer. You don't have don't,

don't, don't have that, because you don't have the break in between. And so we just have this incredible, this wave coming at you of the visible. It's very difficult to think your own thoughts. It's very difficult for you to have these moments where you can relish in the non-purpose or the unpurposed moment when there's all this purpose being fire-hosed at you.

And I think that that might also be this idea where we become corrupted. It's like we just want to break. We just want to stop that for a minute. And it's nice. That's where you get this idea of the retreat. In some ways, like maybe what we're seeing is the, institutionalization of the instrument. You know what I mean by that?

Like money is an instrument to make your life better. But when money becomes an institution, you begin to get the corruption. Anytime the instrument, when the knife becomes dull and people rally around about making the knife, you start having these questions of, well, what are we doing here? What is it? You know, like it just, it becomes corrupted. And so maybe that's what we're seeing when we see this idea of purpose or when we see these idea of people going into government or becoming leaders, they're walking down someone else's

path that has already been paved. So these people walking that path have already been pre-selected for not going their own way. These are people that love to follow the path or people that love to, hey, I'm going to take this path that ends up at this cool label. Isn't that sound fun? Yeah, you could be this thing up here. Look at this label. Isn't that cool? This label comes with like a big paycheck. And in doing so, you are becoming, you. are failing to become the person you're supposed to be by becoming the idea of someone else. What do you think? I 100% agree with that, right?

It's the chasing the label thing. Yes. It took me two years to understand. I kept saying potus, potas, potus. I didn't know what potus was some form of lotus. And then finally, I was seeing, you know, president of the United. Oh, that's what potis means. And, you know, all these things, right?

In India, do we have these strong label and more than that? we have just titles per se for example even calling relatives right there has to be uncle and aunt and all these sorts of things and it is not in a very um fun way it's more of a serious way where you know there is no other way to call them you know what i mean it's very formal yeah very formal as well as it creates this idea that i am this i am this rather than you know our name are we can have so much identity going around our name as well. Yet the name can also be not as much as a title. Are you seeing the point? I think so, please. Try to break that down a little bit more for me, though.

A generic title that has been established, like office position or is, yeah, like an official position of our stuff, right? It has a lot of storylines going with it. A lot of expectations, a lot of, the path is completely clear of what you, need to be heading to where you're going to sit, what roles you're going to fulfill, right? There is no detracting. You lose your individuality in doing so.

The same way, that is societal roles. I'm talking about even just roles within the family and stuff. When we have this uncle or grandmom or when we call them that way, they assume that, oh, now I'm that. So I have this role to fulfill. And if I'm become this, now I'm wise. so I have to impart wisdom because the kid doesn't know anything. And these are happening.

But we can be associated with the name as well. But if we start using names per se, it's not as constricting as the societal label that has been pre-established. There can be certain associations with the name. Like, for example, I can call someone by their name and they're like, oh, this name, this is me. That me is still better than, oh, I am this. person in this position with this particular established label, right?

At least name becomes this established label for a lifetime, which can be a gateway to working towards the individuality and finding the self. I think I have, I realized I couldn't participate in the societal things, being able to create change or anything because it requires a lot of letting go of this freedom of, expression, I would say. For me right now, life is about, it's just this one being that's expressing itself in multiple forms. So I want to express myself this way and that's it.

That's all I tend to do. And it took me time to get here. But for initial parts of the journey when I think about how do I contribute to society, right? And it's like, would I be able to contribute without getting into the system? because the moment I feel like at this perception at that point, that getting into the system is going to correct me. They say, right, people are not bad. The seats of power, when you get there, you will automatically turn evil.

There is no way you can control yourself to, and I've added that. I think I've tried trading and, you know, I talk about not being greedy, not trying to do. And when I was trading, I was greedy and I was thinking, where is this coming from? Yeah. I didn't know. is this so it has nothing to do with me it's my interaction with this particular system that can be yes you can control your emotions and make it profitable but i realized it's not for me because i was not able to control my uh whatever right decision making skills at that right right i have lost quite

some money in that and it was nice it was a very good experience very liberating it was very um ah man i wish i didn't do that you know all those moments yet i realize when i was the same thing in paper trading, right? When actual money is not involved, I made a lot more money. I was, because there was the sense of not being affected and attached by it, right? So,

having that particular idea in mind that this particular position is going to help this particular way and so on, it corrupts us. We just simply cannot know what tomorrow has to offer, what the next one hour is to offer. It's the assumption that we

kind of think we know, it's troublesome. Yeah, you find yourself in these positions, you know, whether it's greed or whether it is selfishness or whatever it is that you know is not you, but then you have this weird way of getting rewarded for it. And so you have to figure out in your mind that, wow, I know this is wrong, but I get rewarded for it.

So then you come up with these tricky ideas of like, well, maybe it's not wrong. Why would I get rewarded if it's not wrong? In fact, maybe more people should be like this. And then you're off of the races. You know, I often, the more that I think about it, like, I think we share a similar set of experiences where we began walking down this gilded road with a nice golden cage. And then, like, you get closer and you're like, dude, I don't want to go in there.

And as you walk down that road, you have like this guy. And it's like, look, you can tell these people what to do. And like, you're helping them. But in my mind, I'm like, no, I'm not. Who am I to tell these people what to do? Like, they should make up their own mind. People are like, well, maybe they don't know. Well, yeah, it's still not my point to tell them.

I mean, I'm their friend. I'll talk to them all day long and tell them what I think. But the moment you begin thinking you're better than other people is the moment you should stop and question yourself about what am I doing? And it makes sense that people, like, let's just go with our idea that the road to is paid with good intentions. And let's look at some of the people that start finding their way to the halls of power. You know, as you climb up this ladder, be it a corporate one or one up against the wrong wall or whatever, you know, you, it seems to me, according to my experience, is that

you begin seeing the corruption and you begin making little sacrifices that make it okay. You begin just with little concessions, like, well, I don't really have time for that. So it's okay. But by the time you end up with a title like CEO or you end up with a title like CFO or any sort of these grand titles that we give all these accolades to for some weird reason, you know, you begin to understand that the more you have, the more of those things own you. And so you're in this cage. And so it becomes much easier to look at the people below you and be like, well, why aren't you? you in this cage? Why do you guys have freedom? I'm the one that's supposed to have everything. The same way that people on the bottom look at the person up top with all the money,

the person on the top looks at the people on the bottom with all the freedom. Like, look at you guys. You know, it's like they're just pointing fingers at each other. But yeah, it's interesting to think about, right? And it all comes to the cliche dialogue, right? Of grass is greener on the other side. Yes, yeah, yeah, agree. So the initial time after cycle, so I used to hate cliches. I don't know why. I used to hit them. I think I was being rebellious by 18 cliches and then I had my first LSD trip and I was like, oh wait, cliches are cliches because they are being said and they are the same point of view that have been arrived from different journeys. No, right? And it's mind-blowing. It's like, oh, I wasn't being

rebellious. I was being a stupid idiot. Right. And I've had this numerous amount of times and small, small examples. Like, my air was curly and I, I had a roommate whose air was straight, right? And she used to curl it. I didn't know there was a thing called curling. I thought the curled air, there was a thing called straightening because I think straightening was the way, right? Like, foolish ideas that was there in my mind. And I saw curling and I was asking why. And she was like, no, I'm bored of my straight air and it's nice to curl and it's kind of. And it's kind of of the trend and so on, right? And I was like, but I have had this girl year for so long, I'm going to straighten it now, you know? So we exchange our things and I got the straightening.

Right. And at the time, there was no understanding because if there was understanding, I would have dropped that thing and I would have just walked out, but I did end up straightening, right? And but looking back at it and there is always this thing, grass is greener on the other side. So how do we reorient ourselves to appreciating what? is that we have got. And I know we were talking about the assumptions on which we live right. Like to dismantle that assumptions

will lead us to where we are right now. Yeah. Because I think that's what I've been doing the last two weeks since my five grams. Right. And it's like, oh, this is why this assumption is what I've been living on. That's where my problems generated.

And now I think I had this intuitive feeling to read Grist for the Mill by Ram Dass. Do you know about that? I've heard of that, but I've never read it. It's a great book. I keep seeing the quotes on the Ram Dass page on Facebook. And for some reason, I have be here now and becoming nobody. And yet most of the quotes that right now my frequency is attuned to comes from this book. So it's like, yep, I'm going to read this.

And I was taking that and reading. And one of the major things is suffering is grace. right when you get to the dimension within yourself you know forget dimensions and stuff where you get to sit and meditate and you're aware in a different way than normal sense pleasures right as you said that particular note that is being pressed pan that's not the fun part right having that space right creating that space happens in meditation and when you're in that awareness where yeah you're you're you're not truly wanting to sit yet and you see there is something that's happening that is beyond your current understanding of how it is and therefore in that point of view you see the next time i have a suffering it's because i have a particular model that this is how the world should work and that's what i called assumption this is a i assume this is how it should be right when i see um you know let's say big murder cases are gunshot and uh i just assume it shouldn't be like that because if i'm

getting agitated by that, I just assume that maybe life should be better. People should be kind. People shouldn't hurt other people. Even though this is something that we might want to have it out there, it's still a model that might be incorporating in my life. As you said, I think I wanted to add this the last time, you said, it's just my opinion, it's not a fact. There is literally no fact in this world, you know. One of the things they kind of teach you as a son. And let's say for an example, it's a fact that sun rises in the east. No, it's not a fact. You go to another planet which is on the opposite side of the, you know, whatever, solar system.

And for its sun rises in the west. And now you say a particular thing, like an apple will fall on the ground, right? Or speed of light is the fastest. Again, you go to another galaxy where the laws of physics is different. And the being exists for whom the truth is different, right? So there is absolutely zero facts. And once we get to that part, at least intellectually, I think the first thing we do is intellectually understand something

before we experientially integrate into our life. And intellectually, at least if we add that, you know, obviously, and from that on, it's going to be like you're not going somewhere, you're not going towards a goal yet. I see it happening this way. life becomes a work, a work in a sense that it's not serious. It's not like you have to complete it.

You're going to get any reward. That experiences the reward. Because I see right now if you're not in that experience and you're going somewhere, you're truly not getting any reward because reward for us as awareness being in this body. It's just the experience. it could be anything. And in that sense, we can tie it back to how antidepressants are, you know, working in human bodies.

The term numb that is being used, right? If it's numbing, what is it numbing of? Numbing of the experiencer. So the body is alive. A dead thing is alive. It's there. The perception from the outside well can see that, oh, the antidepressant work to some extent because the person hasn't killed themselves, right?

or the person is not completely locked inside the room. We get to see that the person comes out and do these sort of things. So I am going to be the judge of that the antidepressants have worked to a little extent at least. And for now this is the best tool that we have. And would Big Pharma not exploit psychedelics? Of course not. I heard from my friend and I was seeing they are developing almost 700 compounds of, you know, all these psychedelics, which, where they are removing the essential.

part of hallucinogen because people don't want to trip. They just want the medicinal benefit. It's really funny because in this podcast of Duncan Russell, I love Duncan. Yeah. I got to know him through the midnight gospel on Netflix, right? And they were talking about how this whole reality is just an hallucination happening in our brain, right? There is a speed of light and you're interacting with another person and you're always interacting with the past. Like the moment you speak, I'm not hearing it. Even though it seems instantaneous, it's not. There is a time decay in that. And there is, so in that sense, we are taking that information a little slower. Yet we are not able to comprehend that time gap, but we are recreating it in our head. So that is an hallucination.

So you want to design these compounds that's going to take away the hallucination and give the medicinal ingredient. Like how do we know this? that we're still working on like chemical compounds you know there was a paper that was released three months back that uh serotonin might not be the one that causes depression and people are like oh wow right we we were thinking and yeah it doesn't have to be right it doesn't have to be we these are assumption models like one of the reasons i would never do anything in my life because i will never get to a part where i can have a model to work with people because the moment i have model i'm in a person of myself.

Right? I think another thing with respect to CEOs we were talking, I was talking with my friends. I have 500 to 600 connections on LinkedIn and I have at least 200 people

who are CEO. I was like, wow, nice, because all these people are CEO of one person company. We don't need the title. I know. We're so fond of it. Like, we want to call ourselves

founder, CEO, CFO. You know, there was this another person. I'm open for positions like CEO, CFO. Why are we open to this particular role because these after a particular point we understand the roles and the work has nothing to do with each other you see you know in the current mainstream education people are studying one thing and their values are being used in something else does no relevance I don't see I was a I studied engineering I did welding right now I'm in an extrusion aluminum thing and I talk

about how fucked up I am with my psychology and stuff so none of these are actually related to each other in one essence yet when we put that title as you said right the whatever title you want it's prisoning and i'm happy we share that view because uh that is freeing you remind me how it can be prisoning because sometimes there is a lack of confidence you know you get fooled into thinking maybe maybe there is something that i'm missing out right that's that's a point again to have a introspective moment as you said when you want to help other people right i i add that for one year two years i wanted to help people i wanted to help my parents not have fights i wanted to give them psychedelics i wanted to see you can see a better view you know i

assume that right now i have an assumption that people are suffering not with the idea that i should change them. I still have that in my head that there is a lot of suffering, that self-inflicted mental suffering that doesn't need to be, but people go through it, but I am not the one to change it because this is how it is going to be. Yet for two years, I add a lot of like, I can change this, right? And that is the spiritual ego of like, I am a little bit better than you in this aspect. Yeah. And that requires that look. And For me, honestly, a 10-time meditation is what turned me inward to that. Because other times, I was still playing this intellectual game and going on.

I still play a lot of intellectual games. And I come back in circles to the point of being present. But it doesn't happen when I'm interacting and exchanging all these conversations with the world. It happens exactly when I'm silent and seeing what is that I'm trying to do. And when you see, it's like there was this saying in. then I saw people want to move mountains and oceans right and when they realized they were the ones who placed it there in the first place you just don't have with fear to move it and it took me a lot of time to understand that ah I see right and that moment was nice and yeah now when I forget

those are the moments that you know help me and when I talk with you when you talk about that pristening idea because one of the major parts is we we let ourselves play prison. Oshow is a very nice person who ignites the flame of rebelliousness inside you. I think I saw this post last week. It was nice. It wouldn't be taken positively in a mainstream society that we have created because he says let go of everything. Not the way I like let go of suffering or anything. Live in insecurity. Don't be secure. Tomorrow you might not get food. Live like that. That's where the true freedom lies, right? But it's very difficult to convey this part of conversation

to people because one of the things that happens is that we feel threatened. I don't want to say they. We feel threatened as if we are losing something. Yet we also understand on some level, at least me through practice, that it's not an easy change. I cannot, even if I want to let go of anything, my conditioning is so deep.

I am working one step. a time and it's going to take months and months and years and years and so on, right, to work at the deeper level. So consciously saying something like look forward to insecurity seems like just the first step and we are very scared to take even the first step. We want to be secure, right? Yeah, yeah. It's Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?

Like you want to have food, shelter, you know, love and then you start getting up into these different ideas. It's very difficult to live insecure. We're taught our whole life to reach out for security. We're taught that this is the one thing you need in order to be safe or like you say, you're going to die if you don't have security. And so when we get people telling us that you should live insecure, it goes against our entire conditioning from day one.

You know, it's, it's fascinating to think about. So that's why I wonder sometimes if these, it's something. sometimes only through the deepest tragedies that you really create existing change in your life. And maybe it's because we're so focused on security. Maybe it's because we're so tunnel vision that we just fight everything until a tragedy comes along and forces you to change. And that's where the real, I think that gets us back to this idea where suffering is bliss in some ways.

It's like not the actual suffering, but what comes from suffering is that which creates lasting change in your life. And that's why you should not only accept it, but you don't have to love it, but can I stop you and ask you? Yeah, please. I want you to continue the conversation. I want to ask, not the actual suffering, but why that suffering comes right. So what do we think an actual suffering?

How would you define an actual suffering? What is suffering, I would say? Like, I would ask you, what is suffering to you? Losing something you love. is that the only thing? No, but that's just one definition. One. You want another one?

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think that's my best one. Can we go with that one? Yes. When I, no, I feel like that's my meditation practice because when I ask myself to define suffering, I'm out of words.

I cannot explain suffering because when I keep searching, searching, there is no suffering that is there. And you know, when you're not looking for it, the suffering seems deep. Because even when you say losing the loved one, right, intellectually you're going to know, you're going to lose someone that you're going to love. If you have a, you have cats. I do. Let's say you live, you know, for the next 15 years, there is a very high chance that the cats are going to die before you.

So you're going to lose your loved one. And intellectually, you know, I know. Right. Right. So in that sense, can we avoid it? that suffering. If that was the actual point of suffering, can we avoid it? You can't avoid it, but you also can't thoroughly understand the, that which is ripped away from you when it happens. It's one thing to say, I know this is going to happen, but it's another

thing when it happens. And maybe that, maybe that is suffering. Maybe the suffering is trying to understand the difference between what you thought and what is real. Yes. And I think I don't go so much with stats, but I like the stats to play in my head, right? And they say 97% of the times that people think what's going to happen, it doesn't happen. Right. And then I think we talked about it. Three percent it happens.

And out of that point one percent, it happens drastically worse than how they thought it. right? And when we think those thoughts, so is suffering actually happening in the present moment or the building up of that present moment? You know, my friend taught me this word precipice of change or something. Is it happening just before, right? And that just before seems to be our whole life towards death. Maybe there's no actual suffering in that. or I try to get around that path where I agree with you because I wouldn't know how I would be able to handle a couple of my dog's death and yeah hopefully my partner if she dies before me. Did I say hopefully?

Oh, sorry, sorry, you're deaf. And you know, my parents death and all these sort of things intellectually there is a thing. But when I come to the experience, is it going to be the same? What is going to happen? Those are all there. And yet, there is also this understanding of that part. Why not, you know, think about it then, right? So, and again, there is a question.

Layer by layer, I'm going to bore you now. Is this question coming out of suppressing this or is it like present moment awareness? Am I being present by avoiding these questions? or is there any way to process? And it's like, right now, I do not have the ingredients. So I cannot make the solution. So once the ingredients comes by, when the ripping apart happens, maybe, then I can think about it, right? It's a good point, yeah.

I'm sorry, I detracted a lot from what you were going to say. You were saying that people, you were saying something about actual suffering and then what comes as suffering, right? like what builds up to the point of suffering. So can you continue if you really, I mean, if you still have that in your head, the thought. Well, I think we segue nice. I think that it was just this, we were getting into suffering. And I think we moved in a way that we were supposed to move, which leads me to this next thought, which is, you know, previously in the conversation, we had talked about how, you know,

you were an engineer, but also you've been moving into psychiatry. and you've been moving into understanding meditation and like all these different things. And in the world we live in, like so often we're taught that, hey, you're not being focused. Like you should start here and then you should go to this, get this degree and then get this one. And then like you see you take these focus steps. But I think that that is a, like that same model is something that is trying to, to be forced upon people to think a certain way, which kind of gets us all the way back to the exploitation of mind. People are saying, like, this is the way to think. But the truth is,

okay, let me backstep for it. Have you ever been like thinking about something? Maybe you're studying something and then some weird thought pops into your mind. Like, you know, I'm thinking about going to work and then all of a sudden I'm thinking about driving my car really fast, you know, and then all of a sudden I'm thinking about, okay, I got to do this podcast. I'm like, Wait a minute. I'm supposed to be thinking about work. Right. So most people see that as unfocused. But I would say that the next thought is the right thought. You may not understand why you're thinking of this thing you think is random,

but it has a lot to do with the previous thought. You just got to integrate that. And I think if people took time to understand that, they would be like, oh, I was thinking about work and then I thought about driving my car fast. because if I drive too fast at work, I might get in an accident or, you know, they're not seeing about my podcast, because this would be a great thing to talk about in my podcast, you know what I mean? I don't think people thoroughly understand when they say they're unfocused. That's not it.

Like your brain is incredible, and it's showing you all the answers you need if you pay attention as the observer instead of the person who thinks they're trying to drive it. So it's not a random, unfocused thought you're having. it's the next thought in the succession of getting to where you need to go. I think that could change the way we live in this world if people would adopt that. What say you? Sometimes I get trapped in my own set of words. And again, when you say randomness, right, it comes with this narrow viewpoint.

Let's use the word assumption that we have got, that we got to stay this way. Everything that doesn't happen is randomness. Of course, it's going to be random. But widen your horizons and as much as you can intellectually, practically and, you know, keep on working on just trying to expand that. And you see, nothing is random. What is random is just you're not included in your understanding, in your intellectual perception, right? It's like this. We are, in essence, light.

Right? And light kind of travels in all directions. And we are trying to put that narrow slit to focus this and you know, you want to get this laser out of it. We want focus. We want focus. Yet how, again, the question comes to how do you know you have to go there? Right? Only when you go and you don't find what you're finding, you'll get.

Again, this includes to the part about suffering. And what you put beautifully put as thoughts that seem random or random when. one is trying really hard to push against. That's a form of suppression. When you try to fight your thoughts, they're here. They're your friends. They're here to tell you something.

I think the same with pain or any kind of messages the body is trying to communicate to you. They come in this form of emotions or pain or signals, right, sensations and so on. Yet we are so determined, right? We are so determined to get there. and this there is that in a thought world you know where there is so much freedom actually to play with those

all of things you know when you said before that story that this is a little thought experiment I think the whole life for me is a thought experiment if I want to say something I just think it out and it's like it's nice it's cool to have those but I got no motivation to do those things

you know and it turns out to be to a beautiful thought experiment and I have my fun and I get out of it right? Yeah And in that sense, when we see, yes, we seem to be focused because we know where we are going. And when we know that whatever is not within our view seems troublesome. So I'm going to put this away for now. Put this away for now. And it's as simple, you know, energy is neither created nor destroyed.

So you're not destroying it. It's just there. It's going to lie. all these energy that is as thoughts, it's getting suppressed. So it's beautiful. I don't think I understood what you meant last time when you said, we should invite our thought, sit with it and so on. I mean, there is a perception that I have which goes against that in the sense that

thoughts are endless. Okay. So if you're going to sit with your thought, how many thoughts you are going to sit with and this is a discussion that my partner and I have having. And it's true. There is a view to that. There is also another view that I don't want thoughts, right? Like, oh, the people said, enlightened being is without thoughts.

And I'm just going to not have thoughts. Like, I don't know how to do that. I'm just not going to have thoughts. It doesn't work like that. There has to be a practice. It's a cause and effect. So once we understand that, we have to try to find a way to, yes, integrate it. And, you know, pay attention to it, not suppress it.

Again, this is, these, these, I would totally understand all these topics can be so gibberish because it's a mental game where it is up to the individual. Whatever they, that there lies the true freedom. It's not the external world where what type of job they do or anything. It's, these seems very, as you said about the story where the kids went with a cheap mindset, right, or petty mindset. It's like that what jobs we do, what exploitation doesn't matter. because there is a whole lot of thing that is going within us that we could see simply as like it's fine i compromised my time because the rest of the time i can get to sit right i get to sit and i see and it's it's tremendous sometimes it's very scary yes oh yes so that's what i was

thinking about yeah it's awesome i i really enjoy getting time to be alone with my thoughts. But for me, it's kind of dangerous because I could do it all day. And I can just live. And sometimes I think, like much like you, where I could have this daydream,

I can actually play out a whole fantasy. And then I'm like, that was nice. Now I don't have to do it. You know what I mean? I lived that. That was fantastic. I don't have to do it now.

You know, it's kind of, ah, that was fun. I could see that. Exactly. Does this not come from, I am sure this comes a little bit from your psychedelic trips where there is understanding that we are just nothing but thoughts in Brahma's head. In that way, if that, you know, I see it this way.

I was just existing, you know. I mean, I was just peaceful in my non-existence. Why do you have to think about me and bring me into existence? So I'm really mad at you from whatever that you are. whether you became me or you're just doing this. It's not fun. I think about that all the time, man. Yeah.

Nice. Ranga, I love talking to you, man. I have to get up and go join this other thought thing that I do called working and driving this truck over. I have to go live this other part of my life. But I really, really enjoy this. And it adds tremendous value. to my day and my life. And you're an amazing person

and I'm super stoked we're having these conversations and I look forward to the next one. I really wanted to get in, I wanted to go deep on that trip that you had, but time flies by too fast, man. Next time. Yeah, we'll do it.

Yes. Okay, thank you for everything wrong. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Jerry. Okay, all right. Aloha.