TrueLife - Henrietta Szutorisz - Objective Recovery

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Henrietta Szutorisz, Ph.Dhttp://linkedin.com/in/henrietta-szutorisz-297a9727 Henrietta Szutorisz is a biomedical scientist and entrepreneur with more than 25 years of international experience in various fields such as virology, cancer, developmental biology, stem cell research, neuroscience and behavioral studies. Her broad interest lies in the developmental and neurobiological mechanisms that are subject to environmental influences and have the potential to give rise to either adaptive progress or pathologies. She utilizes this knowledge to investigate various mental health conditions, with special interest in addiction disorders. Her academic work has received numerous academic awards both in Europe and in the United States and has been published in high-impact journals, also attracting extensive media attention. She is a regular presenter at scientific and public discussion forums. Henrietta’s entrepreneurial pursuits since teenage years have focused on creating environments using the beauty of nature, biotechnology, behavioral research technology, and recently digital healthcare. In 2023, Henrietta founded Objective Recovery, a new startup that uses neurobiology and modern digital technology to address the lack of effective personalized solutions to substance use disorders. As someone who tackled multiple mental health challenges throughout life, including resolving a serious addiction, she is particularly suited to make healing more efficient and rewarding. As a consultant, she helps mental health businesses develop research projects and personalized treatments via scientific and strategy advice. Outside of work, Henrietta enjoys the arts, philosophy, traveling, healthy lifestyles and various forms of self-improvement.   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35413242/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearers through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I'm so excited today. We have an incredible guest, and I know that for those people who enjoy intelligent conversation, and you're going to enjoy the guests we have today. One, Henrietta Su Torres.

She is a biomedical scientist, an entrepreneur with more than 25 years of international experience in various fields such as virology, cancer, development biology, stem cell research, neuroscience, and behavioral studies. Her academic work has received numerous academic awards, both in Europe and the United States. She's a double threat there.

Her work has been published in multiple high-impact journals, It seems to me that on any given weekend, she's presenting something somewhere in the United States or in Europe somewhere. It's exciting to see. In 2023, Henrietta founded Objective Recovery, which is a new startup that uses neurobiology and modern digital technology to address the lack of effective personalized solutions to substance use disorders. Henry, I'm so thankful you're here today. How are you feeling today? Thank you so much, George. I'm very excited to be here.

Thanks for having me. And it's an honor because I feel honored because I looked at some of the podcast and you have so many interesting guests. So it's good too. I feel honored to be part of it. So yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way.

For the really nice introduction. So you actually introduced me really, you know, what do I have to say? Well, I think that you're your, the points that you bring up in conversation and the ideas that you talk about and the people you influence say quite a bit about you. And I want to, before we get started, you know, you had, you and I talked previously a little bit, and you had told me a little bit about a lucid dreaming boot camp that you came to in Hawaii. I thought that might be a good place just to start off to get things going. Yeah, because I know that you are located in Hawaii, so I would love to visit.

So I visited once in about 15 years ago, and the purpose of that trip was, so I attended a lucid dreaming boot camp and it was lucid dreaming is for those of those people who are not familiar it's basically just the idea that we are aware when we dream we are aware that it's it's dreaming it's not real because most of the dreams feel like and seem like it's reality and so these guys who organized this event they studied so a part of the scientists so it's stephen la badge and they uh they have a a very long history of studying this and organizing events like this. So it was basically a course learning about the background, the scientific background, the flucid dreaming, the newest science of it,

and what could be the potential applications. And there are many different uses, potential uses like creativity, any kind of creative thinking, creative problem solving, and also just adventure, because, you know, but it's better than, you know, having all these adventures without having to take a drug or going anywhere, just sleeping. So I did that. So it's my enough.

I think it's very representative for my interest. It's a bit like unusual. I'm interested in. I like to explore many things that are not necessary conventional. So that was just part of it. Yeah. Do you think that that was something that began your inspiration into being an entrepreneur? Was this ability to manipulate dreams?

No, that actually started very much earlier in my life. So it started actually in my childhood. because I grew up with an entrepreneur father and who was very, so we had a very close relationship and I actually even helped him in his business as a child. And he even involved me into and taught me how to think in, and have to develop a business thinking because we made deals that he would pay me to help him during summer vacations when I was in school in his business and things like that. So kind of organically developed my interest.

interest in that from that relationship and being in that environment. And then I actually started my very first business with him. It was very, very different from everything that I have done since. So it was more like focusing on plants, exotic plants and selling them and creating a unique distribution of different types of exotic plants. It lost it for many years, actually. It was very useful to support myself while I was completing my own. studies so to have some extra income and then the rest of my my business is I kind of

lived a double life I like to describe it that way because I have this a long academic background I always wanted to be a scientist already when I was like 10 years 10 years old and so that was that came up just very early and I never changed my mind about that but I had many interests and also this business interest so I I always had this this double life meaning that I had. I was doing research in academia, basic research,

some clinical research as well, and always had different businesses. And the rest of my business was in biotech, and one in behavioral research technology, and the most recent one, objective recovery, is focusing on helping people find the best personalized solutions to addictions,

substance use disorders. So that's more or less, But there's a lot in there. It seems, first off, I think it's an incredibly beautiful story to hear about you building a foundation of business with your father. I think that in some ways, families are like a business. And there's all kinds of talks about family businesses. And you can learn so much in that way, especially about like an ethical way to run your life and see your life like that. is was your grandparents also in like that similar entrepreneurial mode?

So actually I never met my grandparents because I was kind of a late child. So they were already gone when I was, you know, when I was born. And so, but I know that, you know, from the stories that at least one of my grandfathers was also, he also had his own business, his own life. So that's kind of the influences. And I had many others around me also with that background as a child already. Yeah, I think there's something to be said about the environments we grow with and sit the same for plants or the same for the environment we find ourselves in, which, you know, maybe we can think about mental health in the 21st century and the environment we're in. You had posed a really good question to me that was something along the lines of, is it really getting worse, this idea of mental health?

Or do we just have increased awareness, less stigma, and the more people realize it and speak out about it? What do you think about that? That's a great question, and I was thinking about it, but I wanted to kind of throw it back to you and get your opinion about it. Yeah, so I can share a bit of personal history with that, because I think it's very relevant. So when I was growing up in, so I'm originally from Hungary and Europe, and when I was growing up, that was like a really long time ago,

there was absolutely no awareness about mental health, so nobody spoke about it, and nobody, not even treatments were aware of all. there was nothing like psychotherapy so popular in the United States, for example, but it was already even 10 years ago, not in my home country. So I grew up in a way that nobody recognized these things, but at the same time, I developed quite early in my life some challenges in that area, and that's also where my interest comes from a big portion of my interest. And it was very hard to navigate that because nobody really understood, and there was a lot of misunderstanding. So, For example, I had an eating disorder when I was a child and then other anxiety,

depression, things like later on, I experienced an addiction. But at the time, I was already aware from my own studies. And so it was very difficult to actually resolve that problem and to even to think about it. That, you know, I didn't know what I was experiencing. And even when I visited, for example, I had experiences running to the doctor with panic attacks when I was very young. And at the time, I had no clue about anxiety that it was a thing. And so I thought that I had a problem with my heart.

And, you know, I was 19 running to my primary care doctor. And even him never mentioned that this may be anxiety, just prescribed me a medication, like a beta blocker medication, that is now being used for anxiety as well. It's very common. But at the time, no. And it happened more than once. And so that's how I learned that actually,

so I have this something, I have this kind of predispositions. It also runs in mental health issues running both lineages of my family, different types. And so I learned very gradually and through my own experience, that mental has the thing,

that this is what I'm experiencing. And so, and this drove me into this field. And that's how I developed. an interest in actually studying this because I wanted to understand it. Nobody else understands or tells me anything about it, I will. Yeah, that's really well said. Do you think that what was more troubling for you when you were going through this? Was it the fact that you didn't know what was happening to you? Or was it more of like, I want to understand this thing or like what was it that was really causing the anxiety? It was like a thought loop or does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it does.

So I think from what I figured out over the years, I think I personally, it's not for everyone, but personally I think I just have like a physiological predisposition because other members of my family also had anxieties and it's very well known. That's a thing. So some people develop it from, you know, early life traumas and things like that. But I think I definitely have that kind of physiological predisposition. So that's how. And so that's actually a very weird thing because if you don't know, that's what's happening.

then it always feels like anxiety is a very weird experience because it always feels like something is really, you don't know what is wrong. And sometimes people project it into the environment onto other people that the cause is something out there, something I'm doing something wrong. But it's very, very often it's just so we don't understand. And so definitely, definitely my interest, the origin of my interest was first of all trying to understand what was going on with me. I think it's very common in people who ended up in the mental health field. You know, we want to cure ourselves. But also in a larger scale. So I had also, you know, in my relationships,

I also met other people who had different issues. And it was so puzzling and affected, you know, the relationship and many things. And so I just developed a very strong interest in this way. Yeah, I think that that's something. similar that happens to most people. And it brings me back to the main question, which, you know, was, is mental health in the 21st century? Is it getting worse or do we just have increased awareness? I think it might be both and. I think it is getting worse and we do have more

awareness of it. But I think that as we're going through this 21st century, it's a lot like your life. If we look at it from a fractal angle, society, the world we live in is becoming aware just like you became aware when you were a teenager. And because it's happening on this mass scale, there's more awareness and it's just compounding in the effect right there. What do you think about it being a both and? Yeah, I definitely think it's both. And the awareness, the awareness is even,

it has become almost like a fashion trend these days. You know, it's like, you know, just we all want to be, you know, just improve our elevate our self-awareness and awareness of the world. Or it is to talk about, you know, psychedelics and these experiences. So it's a lot of interest. But at the same time, I think it's the lifestyle that compared to the lifestyle that we live now, and you know, humanity, especially the modern parts of the world, that it has changed a lot since I was born and, you know, I was a child.

So it's the lifestyle that we live now. It's very, very fast-paced and it's very high expectations. And also the access to information and having been interesting. the internet and it's going now all these new technologies and it's it's it it it has made a lifestyle very kind of crazy a bit and it's very and i don't think that human beings had uh have had enough enough times to biologically adapt to these changes and i think this this is the other main reason that the main drive that has created this increased the prevalence of mental health issues in the in the in the last 10 years or so and especially

Now we had the pandemic and now the pandemic is resolved, but still the mental health in general. It's not, or the statistics show that it's not getting better at all. So I think it's the lifestyle and the awareness. Yeah. Do you think that maybe what we're seeing is, it seems to me, from what I've read, the different case studies and someone who studies this will know better than me. It seems to me that a lot of people, right before they have a breakdown, they have like the last straw or their last moment. And maybe I'm both thankful, but a little worried because it feels to me like we're at that last straw, whether it's COVID, whether it's Ukraine. It's always this giant thing that is about to cause the world to fail.

And it just seems we're running on fear. And I'm wondering what you think the relationship to fear and mental health is. Yeah, it's definitely that has also, it's because of these lifestyle, especially in the past three years, you know, the pandemic and the economic changes and all these uncertainties that it's much higher level, created this higher level of fear. And so it's definitely, it's kind of a doomsday thinking that many, many people develop and keep developing, and especially if you're a U.S. see this, that young, younger, the younger generations, like, you know, 20-something and teenagers,

it's quite clear that they have a lot of mental health issues. And it's part of it is because they are aware of it, but it's also, I think it's the, the consequences of this, this, you know, fast-paced crazy lifestyle. Yeah. And it's also, so in terms of, you know, your comment about, you know, reaching that I, so in the addiction, field we often describe we have this term reaching rock bottom yes so that's something that there is a lot there are a lot of debates among you know people who have experienced addiction so addiction professionals if some people suggest that that's usually what catalyzes change real change and the motivation for change in many people with addiction so we can apply it equally well to any

other I think most other mental health issues and even like you know an existential crisis and all that's a existential crisis. But in my opinion, actually, that varies because it depends on a lot of factors. It's not everyone has to reach the rock bottom so that, you know, the worst state. Because what is the worst? Worst in my opinion, for a human is for death, maybe. So you can always get worse. And so that's what also many people don't recognize because we have this tendency.

That's a survival, biological survival mechanism also, that we always try to focus on the positive and minimize the negative, it's just to, basically just to survive. And this thinking, this mindset is also applied automatically to these problems when there is a problem like that. So people always think that, you know, those bad things will happen to others, not to me. And some of them are actually quite predictable. And some people recognize much earlier, they don't need to go near that, you know,

rock bottom, you know, death, near-death experience. So it's also, it's very, it's very different. It's very, very varied also. It's just in my field in the addiction, you know, feel that people who experience addiction and what catalyzes them to resolve their own. It's, I love talking to you, Henry. Like, sometimes I think that one of the reasons I love talking to you

is because the way in which you describe things is like an intricate clock. You tell me about all the different moving parts and how the gears are moving the other parts. Like, I love that. And I really think that the people listening to this can get a better understanding of that. And that leads me to this question about addiction and recovery, of which you have spent almost a lifetime studying. And this is sort of a complex question, but I'll try to simplify it the best I can. And it's something along the lines of. Sometimes I feel that addiction is contagious.

And the reason I think that is because there's a lot of great things that come from this crazy thing called addiction or hitting rock bottom. People that find themselves in that fringe, in that rock bottom, addicted to something, frantically searching it. They usually, when they come out the other side, if they make it through, they usually come out with an entirely different mindset or the ability to see things in a different way they never have before. And that can be addicting. That can be this thing that changes them. It can be this thing that people turn to them for. So have you noticed that weird sort of dichotomy between addiction and, you know, contagion and people wanting to go there to change?

Yeah. So, you know, it's maybe I have an opinion about what you call it contagious. I think it can be that way, literally, like, you know, people learn the behavior from others. Like, if, you know, it's not contagious, like a virus would be or, you know, a pathogen. But definitely, it's a, you know, a huge area and literature in the world. this field. But I'm always saying that it's because we are biologically wired to develop actually addictions, because it's the mechanisms that create the addictive mindset and those behaviors. It's set in us. So we are born with it. And so those mechanisms actually serve

basic survival. So examples that I like to cite for example. So it's, you know, it's basically seeking, rewarding, positive, pleasurable experience. And that's what an addict will do also with drugs or any behavior, you know, gambling, sex, whatever. But there are very basic and everyone knows that basic mechanisms that normal people do. So our survival and the necessary essential for survival, like feeding, you know, eating. And usually eating is pleasurable for most people. If it's not, then there is usually a problem. And procreation.

know, and then sex. And so these are two things that also, they can become an addiction. And so we are biologically biased to seek, seek these experiences and to experience pleasure and, you know, euphoria, whatever we want to call it, from these normal experiences. And what happens in addiction is that it gets very often used the word that the whole system is hijacked by experiences that are more, you know, they provide a stronger reward, a subjective reward, like a drug. They are usually much stronger than a food or, you know, a relationship or anything like that. So it's basically, and so what happens is that some people have, are more, again, biologically biased, predisposed to seek out these experiences. And so that's also, there is a huge body of literature

that genetic predispositions and other types that can actually trigger people into these, you know, negative, self-destructive behaviors that turns into an addiction. Yeah, it's fascinating to me. I'm curious, when you, was it this process that you went through and then all the things that you've studied that helped you open up objective recovery? that's the first part of the question. The second part of the question is, at objective recovery, at your new startup,

how are you using neurobiology and modern digital technology together? Yeah. Thank you for asking that question. Yeah. The first part. So that's the main inspiration for that was actually my own experience with addiction.

And now it's luckily, it's in the far past. So I recovered from it. It was a very difficult experience, just like what anyone else. You know, I was not exempt from, You know, even I was a part of this experience when I saw I had a drinking problem. And I'm very open about it.

I speak about it on social media everywhere. But I used to be very secretive just like everyone else. And so, of course, that was very difficult. And it was very difficult to resolve. That was also the experience that partially inspired me to actually change, make a big shift in my career, my research career. Because before I had not always been in neuroscience. I started out in other areas of biology.

like he listed in the beginning of this conversation. And that inspired me for this change, because again, as you alluded to, I wanted to understand myself and, you know, just how this works. And so, but that was a long time ago. And then I resolved my own problem. And it was so, it was so bizarre even experiencing this bit of all the knowledge, because I was already in neuroscience during part of that experience. And studying actually addiction, that was my specialty.

And I always felt like almost like, you know, again, double life. And because I was hiding it to my knowledge, nobody really knew about it unless I shared it. So and this dissonance, this cognitive dissonance that it created, you know, in my mind, it was one of the most difficult parts of the addiction for me. And so even when I decided finally that I want to change my life, I want to quit and, you know, recover from it. It was a very long process, so it was not any easier for me, even with this background. Maybe a little bit easier, but it basically, it mostly became easier once I found the practical resources that were a good match for me, that helped me in my recovery.

So I couldn't just, you know, cure myself and just with a mind section. It doesn't wear that way for most people. So I needed the other help. And so I was also just like many other people. At first I tried things that were not a good match for me, and I got stuck in doors. Sometimes even people develop, like, you know, just this concept of trading addictions, that when someone had one type of addiction and they quit that one, and then they have this predisposition.

They are still seeking something. They don't resolve that issue that, you know, they don't feel that whole or whatever we want to describe it. And so they get into other experiences and can go forever. And for example, I got almost like addicted to a community of addiction recovery community online. And that was so bizarre and I was not even, you know, it was many years ago now. But even with me, I consider myself very introspective. I have always been. But, you know, being an in active addiction and going through that, why it's happening, it's very hard to see clearly.

And I was really stuck in trying to just over and over. over even trying this method and people were just trying to add the community members, trying to force me that this is here, this is what you have to do. And luckily I got out of that and I found what really worked for me. And so I just went through this whole experience myself. And then two years ago, about two years ago, I made a big change also again in my career. And I quit a long academic history. I had over 20 years, so I always had an academic position in different areas.

And I decided that I wanted to become 100% self-employed and pursue consulting first in these mental health areas. And then this idea of objective recovery and focusing on the recovery side had been incubating in my mind for a long time. And so I decided to finally pursue it. First, just doing some market research last year and showed a lot of interest. and basically started this just a few months ago this year. So it's brand new. And so again, it's the problem that we are addressing here is also what I experienced. And so many people experience.

It's not really developing new treatments, but the problem of choice in the first. What would be an appropriate, the best, personally, most suitable treatment or treatment combination for a person based on their own? background and that what drives their problems and how they make decisions, their thinking style and, you know, everything, you know, personality and then and also their goals because that's also part of the big issue in the addiction treatment industry is that very often the provider tries to enforce a goal onto the person who tries to recover that. For example, many providers still only believe in complete abstinence.

And that's very hard, that can be extremely hard to achieve for many people. So we target this problem of choice. And since we have this, you know, the era of technological development and the AI and all these tools are available now, so we are using actually an AI powered, a machine learning, a powered method to assess people and create an experience. for them. So it's a it's a gamification. So it's not just a questionnaire and you know, that's how people usually, when they see a psychiatrist or psychologist, they are asked questions. But that cannot reveal really, you know, unconscious motives, for example, that are very important

for addiction. So we want to tap into that and so we are creating this gamified experience and assessment and collect data during that experience and then use that data to match people with treatment. That is amazing. I love it. I love the idea of using, well, maybe, like you said, it's not like a brand new, you're not revamping everything, but you are taking this idea of,

okay, everyone's got to stop cold turkey. Like, that's not going to work. It hasn't worked in the past. And if it does work, people that stop cold turkey usually relapse. I think I read somewhere between seven and eight times before they make it. So they're never really stopping cold turkey. They're just stopping in chunks. And that can be just as detrimental to people's health too,

because when you're told to just stop doing something, that doesn't manifest in just the act of the thing you're addicted to. It usually stops in, okay, I'm not going to talk to my friends. I'm not going to go outside. I'm not going to do, you know, that comes with a large chunk of other things. And I would like to talk a little bit more about this idea of gamification and managing the actual recovery. Because a lot of times in science, we hear things like,

how can you manage what you don't measure? So I guess when you have a game, you're able to measure your progress and seeing how you're performing at that level. And when you put it in the language of gamification, you're kind of taking out some of the seriousness, which is sometimes a roadblock for people. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the way,

in which you're measuring these people's, the way you measure their recovery and how you manage it? Yeah, so it's actually what we are doing with the gamification. It's not really a long-term monitoring of recovery. So it's again, it's the beginning before they make the choice that what treatment they want to pursue. So it's basically an assessment, a behavioral assessment, a form of assessment. And so what we measure is so it's very open-minded and very open-ended. And people can create their own narrative, their life narrative. So basically, share during this experience, why are this experience who they are, you know, what lifestyle they have and where they come from, what experiences they had earlier in their

life and also how this problem developed. But they do is basically just almost like a conversation, but through these like fantasy-like environment in the game. And then they don't need to think. And that's exactly the point that is important, that they don't need to think about how they answer, you know, answering questions or anything like that. So they just engage, just like we are engaging in a conversation, but it's much more spontaneous than that. And what we are measuring.

So this is what we are still figuring out because it's still, as I mentioned, it's very early stage. So it's product development early stage testing and figuring out what type of information is the most useful. And so it's basically the narrative. and also the decision-making characteristics. And so basically different aspects of their personality. And so it's, again, the trick, if you can put it that way, is that they don't need to think it's just like addiction itself is, you know, it's an impulse problem.

It can also be they can be as impulsive as they want, and they can also, and then, so it's basically just a normal, a natural way of sharing who they are and the non-judgment also private because they don't need to go to an office or not even to a community it will be just the platform and the person or if they want they can do it with a with a doctor or any treatment provider and so it makes it very they the expectation is that they will feel much more comfortable and to share who they really are and without probably parts of themselves that they don't know because they won't know what the other type of data we are collecting during the experience.

That's really well put. I think a big part of it may be not knowing who you are. And if we look back to the classics, you know, it was Socrates, it was like, know thyself. And it sounds to me if we backtrack so that we can move forward in your discussion about your addiction, it seems that you came to a point where you thought different about yourself. and then there was changed. And then we fast forward into what you're doing with objective recovery. And it sounds like you're providing people with an opportunity to see themselves differently.

I know that's kind of a lot right there. But does that sound accurate? Yeah, it is quite accurate. Actually, there is also a part that we will compare the data from this gamified experience with a traditional self-service or like a questionnaire. So the goal of that is that, you know, with the survey, It's just a simple question, just very similar to any psychiatric or psychological instrument, behavioral testing instrument.

And so that's more like a conscious way of answering questions and sharing who they are. And so that will be one source of data and the other source is this gamified experience. And one goal is also to provide to compare them, the results from the two, the data from the two, and see if there is any discrepancy because that can reveal that. can be very helpful for people to see where they think their own thinking is probably doesn't match with what drives them really and provide feedback, a very clear feedback. And so they get, it's just like, you know, how I learned myself that some things that I thought about myself, not necessarily, what would work for me or what other people recommend it

to me were not the best choices for me. It's, on some level I'm wondering, you know, when you give people this behavior, year old test. Is it like you give someone like a Briggs-Myers or they figure out if they're EFNG or EFNJ and then you could tailor something to them that would more than likely fit their pathway if that kind of makes sense? Is that something similar? Yeah, it is actually so it's good that you mentioned the MBTI because actually I'm drawing some concepts. I like with very much that one and I'm with some others and I have done. I'm a big fan of a person like that person like there is so I've done basically probably most of the

that are out there. So far in my life, I find it very helpful to the result. And so it's drawing concepts and ideas from many of these theories, different systems, but it's also the synthesis, putting them together in this, you know, this like a 20-minute experience is brand new, how it's synthesized together. And it's also, some of it is just really hardcore

neuroscience and behavioral psychology that is not really personally that it's always so involved that, you know, decision-making characteristics because that's very important about, again, the choice of treatment. For example, I can tell you an example from my own life that when I was trying to use this community, I was always told that you need a community to recover from an addiction. That's the most important thing. And many people do find that the most helpful. For me, as I shared with you earlier, that was detrimental because I just got hooked on that because, you know, I was so isolated due to this addiction

and many other tendencies, personality tendencies in my life, and I used to go away. And so it's also, so it's basically, you know, I was just trying to straighten out those misperceptions. And so it's actually my own, in my own experience, I had some ideas at the very beginning, but might help me, but I just rejected them very early, like medication and more like, you know, more like scientific-based,

not community-based methods because knowing who I am. But I just listened to, you know, this just basically did the wrong thing. And I ended up doing what I, but my intuition suggested to me. And that worked for me. So in my case, but it's not for everyone. Yeah, it's interesting to think about. that kind of brings me to this idea of relationships. Sometimes the relationships we have with things, you can describe addiction as a relationship,

or you could describe your relationship to that group, the relationship to spirituality. So when I bring out this monster, this monolith called relationships, like, what do you think about? Yeah, so this definitely plays a big role and in many different ways, because, you know, if you want to discuss relationships, I would always take it back to. you know, you're just going, but not only just, because many people, when it's the word relationship is mentioned, they automatically think about interpersonal, human, human, you know, interpersonal relationships. But the actual world, if you look up in the dictionary, it's not bad. It's basically just a connection of things, concepts, objects, anything. It's a connection. And so the situation

that that connection creates, that's the relationship. And that can be one, one, one form of that relationship, possible relationship is the interpersonal relationship. And of course, in addiction, that's very important in many different ways. The very basic is just the relationship, the misguided relationship that people develop with the drug of choice or the behavior, the addictive behavior of choice. That's also a kind of relationship. And the relationship with themselves, that's also very important because many people, they don't have that.

So that's actually one of the biggest corporates in addiction that many people have. They never develop a good self-esteem, a good relationship with themselves. And it's chronically, you know, they struggle in that area, and they are seeking a substitute. And they end up, they experience a drug. And then, you know, that creates many of the drugs created this, you know, experience that people feel that they are very powerful. everything is good and wonderful and always, and it's just distorted. It's basically a reality distortion, so they end up chasing that. Also, human relationships, interperson relationships,

that's also a huge area even in the science, the research, how that play a big role in the development of addictions for many people, especially early life relationships, because that's when we learn how to relate to, to other people, again, going with to, you know, the bigger, bigger question, the bigger concept of this. Basically, even after we are born, we learn, it's a, you know, it's a very intense learning to relate to the external world, because many people even describe that birth itself, it's almost like a trauma, the first trauma that we experienced and learning to relate.

And many things can go wrong, and it's very, very well-known knowledge these days that, you know traumatic experiences early in life in the family you know early you know interpersonal relationships and negative experiences and not being recognized and not being supported can create actually contribute to this predisposition to uh to to to seek these substitutes so that's monday and there are there are there is beautiful literature out there about this of both from neuroscience I can, if I was interested, it just shoot me a message and I'm very happy to share any, like, you know, not too technical, scientific articles about that. But there are also many, many excellent books on addiction. So in terms of the relationship, there is one that I really liked.

It's from a Caroline nap, and it's called Drinking a Love Story. I love it. So you can probably understand immediately that she, so that the author, has also recovered from her own drinking problem. And so she discusses in that book and the whole how the addiction affected her life and relationships, but also the other way around how relationships problems

could lead to this problem later in life. There are others, there is another big figure in this field, early life traumas and relationships, and this kind of problems is Gabor Mate Dr. Gabor Mate

and he focuses he really believes that it's kind of in my opinion a bit more too universally that it's always

some kind of early life trauma and relationship trauma that leads to develop and contributes to develop the mental addiction. I don't view it as extreme

in my opinion it's a bit more varied there can be different causes and combinations of courses. Yeah, he's incredibly brilliant, but I think he's explaining his own life when he's talking about that. He's like, I have childhood trauma and I have relationship trauma. Therefore, that's, I mean, and it makes sense. We all do it.

I'm just using him as an example. But the things we have in our life, that's our relationship to life. And so we see those things in the other person. We relate to them those things in our life. I think you are a great teacher, and I think that you would be a phenomenal, I think that's kind of what you're doing with objective recovery. And if we just stay there for a minute about relationships and teaching, wouldn't the world be a better place if kids in elementary school began to go through courses in relationship?

Like that should be a part of every subject. Math, English, science. It should have a background in relationship. And I think people would really have a more holistic approach about, and a more realistic approach about their lives and what is possible. you know, good and bad and just all these crazy words and meanings, but the idea of relationship is so important. What do you think about beginning to teach people about relationships earlier in life? You think that would make the world better? Yeah, I completely agree. That would be wonderful.

That's a bit similar in my mind to what we discussed about the whole mental health ever I know that we discussed a bit online before this conversation, there's the role of relationship building in business and how that changed in the past few years. So that's also, in my opinion, part of it is that also people have become more aware in recent years of the importance of relationships. And it's it. And it also how that can, what can happen when those goals,

wrong. And this is also in my, in my view, it's, you know, what's behind that, why it's so important. It's not just, it's again, it's not just interpersonal relationship. It's again, we are wired for that. It's not only because we are, because we are a social species, but also the way, the brain works. So everything is works, you know, the thinking and memory. Everything, everything works through association. So it's never just one thing that we experience. and that we remember. So the memory, for example, it's usually, it's,

it's probably you have experienced, this is very, very often very cold experiences when there is a trigger, for example, when you hear a piece of music or whatever, that reminds you of something,

and there comes with it a lot of, you know, a big chunk of memories. And so I think that, that's our brains are wired for a relational, thinking and emotional, you know,

style that involves, basically everything, It's also these connections, the interconnectedness of everything, reality, whatever we want to describe it. But it's actually an objective thing, in my opinion. It's not who humans created that. And what happened is that we have become more aware of the importance of that. And to your question, the original question, is that I think it would be wonderful to start teaching kids early in life. But it will be very important to have the right teachers,

because, you know, if some of those will be the people who abuse also kids, you know, that wouldn't be good. They wouldn't write the right lessons. And so, yeah, so I think it should be part of education. And it's actually on the conceptual level as well. So to raise awareness and to prevent, because prevention, you know, if you can prevent, make a lose awareness of people early in life and that could potentially create, you know, just people could avoid some problems through that.

Yeah. You know, I'm curious, as someone who's an entrepreneur and studies relationships, it seems to me at least in the world of entrepreneurs, it seems that it's very difficult to have a relationship to a successful business and have a successful family at the same time. I'm wondering, do you think that the way we approach our relationship to our spouse or the people we love in our relationship is the same way that we approach our business.

We often hear things like, hey, don't mix business with pleasure. And it seems that some of the most, some of the people that seem to be playing at the highest level of business, you know, they seem to have had three or four or five relationships. And it seems like they have, you have to choose one sometimes, it seems like, is that, does that true? Or how do you, how do you make sense of that? Yeah, I mean, it can be. definitely a challenge, a practical challenge. And it's a challenge just simply because of the time

management, you know, everything takes time. And every engagement, every action takes time. And so if there is a business, that a new business that requires a lot of, you know, energy and effort, that takes away from the time and energy that one can input in other personal relationships. So it's always, it's very often kind of competition. But ideal, of course, it should not be competition so many people resolve it actually it's many entrepreneurs and others you know resolved this by creating businesses and collaborations with their friends and you know the spouses and so these things are combined then of course that poses a whole new area of challenge because there comes the the challenge have to have to manage because it's it's hard to separate things

what is the business what is the personal relationship where the boundary side. That can be a difficult experience, but it can also create a much extra motivation if we have business partners. Basically, not necessarily people from my personal life, like friends and relatives and things like it, but people we like basically as people.

Even in my own life, I'm actually, it's very funny that we are talking about this because I never thought about myself as a good teacher of relationships because I'm actually a very loner type of person. I don't even have a family and things like it. So for me that's not even a problem. But it's very interesting and it's very important. And so it's but I did have experiences like that when I had some of my best collaborations with people who were actually very very close friends. And like I mentioned my father for example. So it does work that but it's it can be very challenging.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about the relationship between success and addiction, because you can make the case that people who are succeeding on a monitor. If we define success as, gosh, I hate to do this, but if we were to find success as someone who is financially free, and I'm not saying that's the best definition of success, but I'm saying that we do tend to use this idea of financial freedom and success, that that may be best achieved through utilizing addiction to work, utilizing addiction to something.

You can even say addiction to service. But there is that this quality of addiction that is almost connected to success. That's kind of a strange thing to think about, right? Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought this up because this is one of my favorite topics. I usually call it not addiction because it has a different connotation, but I call it obsession. Oh, yeah. It's a bit different because addiction is basically something that is destructive. And obsession is not necessary, just a preoccupation with, you know, something that you are interested in.

And definitely, that's all, you know, all these discussions that I'm very active on LinkedIn. And I see there's all these discussions from the startup community that everyone, you know, it's just even investors such as that we have to be obsessional because, you know, or there are so many barriers, so many negative experiences, rejections and so on. So we have to have a very, very strong drive. And many people who become entrepreneurs, especially repeatedly, they have that naturally because that's also just like addiction.

It's not exactly the same as the predispositions to addiction, like the same genetic background and everything biologically. But it's also known, for example, you know, disorders, mental health, disorder as like OCD, that, that can also have some of that also can have biological predisposition. And so that's also some people are born with that or, you know, it's just basically part of personality biologically determined. And those people have a higher, you know,

chance that they will approach many different things in that way. So I'm a very good example for that myself because it's again, you know, it's just looking through my life. and I just basically, you know, just reading that not necessarily to the level of obsession, but I have a tendency that can create many problems also if I'm not careful, that, you know, just getting hooked and, you know, so engaged on everything that that piques my interest, my curiosity, that's how it works for me. It's not really necessarily, you know, human relationships.

It's more like, you know, even, you know, this conceptual things, even just, you know, whatever, just for myself. and it's just so it just occupies my mind and it's so hard to to get out of that. And so that definitely helps, you know, just going back to your point about success, that definitely helps to succeed if somebody is so obsessional about something because we push through, you know, everything, the hardship to chase a goal. But of course, if somebody is predisposed to obsessions and has this kind of, you know, tendency that can create all the other potential problems as well just like you know negative

negative sides of obsessions addiction that's worse that form you know a drug or behavior or or other behaviors a relationship you know just continuing that line of the discussion that many people get hooked so much on relationships as well and become to be obsessed over another person or a relationship that can also become a problem so Yeah, so it's like, you know, a double-edged sword, definitely. Yeah, I agree 100%. For me, my dad was bipolar, and I'm pretty sure that on some level, whether it's biological or it's just learned behavior,

like I find myself sometimes in this world of just delusion where I can totally do that. And then I can build, I can breathe life into an idea that is ridiculous. And my wife will tell me, like, that is ridiculous, George. That'll never ever happen. I'm like, watch, I'm doing this. You know, but it's, and it's so intoxicating. And I think that that's almost back to this world of addiction.

When you can create something in your mind that is bigger than life itself, it's almost like you give it life. And then that, it takes part of you with it and like you're breathing this life into it. And that's, it's scary because it can take you away from everything you love. And I think that that's like addiction. Like you're breeding this belief and your feelings. and you're feeding it and all of a sudden you become the addiction. And I don't know, I'm not sure I'm making a whole lot of sense right there,

but it's so fascinating in this idea of obsession, addiction, and the world we live in, especially with social media. Like you said, you can go on LinkedIn. And if I'm similar in that, I'm alone wolf in a lot of ways. And I like to be alone. I really enjoy having my thoughts and shining them up and manipulating them up and setting them in certain ways and then trying to share them with people. And when you get that dopamine hit of sharing your idea with other people,

and they pick it up. And like, this is amazing. It's like it kind of allows us to find our own people out there. And but when you do that, you, you alienate yourself in a weird sort of way. How do we make sense of all this? Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. And I also find it very relatable because, for example, you mentioned bipolar disorder. So I was never formally diagnosed with it, but I definitely think that I have tend to

And probably, you know, for example, especially during the period when I was drinking heavily, I think I could have been diagnosed very easily because it was so obvious. So it's definitely, I know what you mean by, you know, the experiences and the mindset. And definitely it's very challenging at the age of social media and the technology. That's become a huge issue on its own, that technology was originally meant to make life easier for us, right? Not more difficult. But of course with it came all these, also these types of issues that it's so intoxicating. In part, it's because of the novelty, no way usually it's very, it's very rewarding also for people that's part of biological wiring.

And, you know, especially the just these past few years and all the changes in technological revolutions and the AI and everything. And the social media and also the high. the way social media works and if you can have a community, you don't need to go anywhere. So it's basically effortless sign up. And that's part of it because normally, you know, when we have a real-time, 3D relationship, we have to

it takes more effort to put it that way. The social media doesn't. So it's very, very easy to get hooked and all the, it's actually designed in a way and people who create these platforms, they are very smart. They actually use these concepts from the neuroscience and how addiction and these mechanisms work to create those platforms and to pull people in. So it's very, very, very hard to once you, once you engage to,

not to, you know, not to, not to remain hooked. And that's also one thing that I really like to discuss because I experienced, that was also one thing that I experienced very intensely. That's also coming from this obsessional tendencies, the social media. So I never really use conventional social media much. It's only LinkedIn that I use now. It's for the professional purpose that I like very much because it's very useful.

But I used to do more like discussion forums. So I wasn't a member of, I don't know how many different forums throughout my lives. Probably if you see me now, you can imagine that, you know, why I did that. because the interestingness of all is just talking about different things and with light-minded people and many of them with anonymous forum. So it's basically risk-free.

You don't even know their names and all that stuff. And so I find it very hard and every a few years in my life and actually it's coinciding with my substance use. That was my weapon, you know, just doing the substance use and also while I was intoxicated, I also engaged in his online things. So they were very intimately intertwined. I had to work on both of them. So I had to stop that completely. I completely stopped it.

And so I like very much, for example, on England now, because finally that's something that is useful, you know, professional. I use it for professional development. I don't use it for finding friends. Although that can also happen, but that's not the primary purpose. But it's very hard. And I think everyone is affected by that, everyone who has access to internet these days. Yeah.

You know, we often hear about the way in which the Internet is making us more unhealthy, whether it's a dopamine addiction or whether it is seeing the very best of people, even though that's not a real representation of them. But I've been having this idea, like maybe the Internet is showing us who we really are. I want to give you a visual and then come back to that. I saw this image of, I'm going to, so imagine a mirror, and then there's an apple in front of the mirror, and you were standing behind the apple. So you can see the full apple in the mirror. But on the backside of the apple, there's a giant bite taken out.

And they said, this is social media, because we're only putting our best face forward. But on some level when you do that, us is the human being. Like, we know, we know that when I see my cousin Larry driving a brand new, navigator. Like, I know Larry's got problems at home. I don't care what kind of car. I know that. And I think that we as humans know that even though we see the best foot forward on social media, we know people have problems. And I think that maybe the biggest problem we're seeing is that we're seeing ourselves for the first time. Like, I can see people in other countries and I see them cover up things the same way I would. And I can find my tribe. I can find my people

and I can find the way they're lying to themselves, because that's the way I lie to myself. And I think that that might be something that's drawing this, drawing us to our own rock bottom moment, is this idea that we're getting to see each other naked for the first time, and people are freaking out about it. So it's not so much that we're lying to ourselves. It's the first time we're seeing ourselves clearly.

What do you think about that? Yeah, I like that direction very much. And it's actually, it's like another one of those. trans, sometimes I call it, like, you know, in a cynical way, like fashion trends that is these days. It's so, you know, everyone talks about authenticity and how important it is. And, you know, that has become one of the primary values for, you know,

society, more than, you know, Western world, at least. You know, just many parts of the world. And so it's, it's, everyone aims for that. But of course, you know, what can we do in social media? At the same time, we, I think, almost nobody shows the whole picture and the image and so it's very selective

and of course there are also the critics of social media like you know we all know that it's very selective and it's not it's fake. Many people call it fake directly and but it's I don't see it that way because I completely agree with you that

there are very many many good aspects of it. It's not only that you can use it for professional development or to develop like a constructive positive relationships, but also exactly like you said that to create not only to see

yourself reflected or reflect yourself and you know what you put out on social media but it's also it's part of part of like you know how we develop goals so you know when we come up with an idea and how we have we developed a new project

usually in the beginning is just an idea and then many people try to You know, we speak about it very often, like, you know, this phrase that fake it till you make it. It's kind of like that. And it can be useful in a positive way that start talking about it. It's like many people now on LinkedIn, other platforms talk about it. They call it like building in public, building a business in public. And it's a process and it's useful in many, many different ways.

It's not only the trivial finding partners and clients and so. investors but also basically developing and fine-tuning that is often called a personal brand but experimenting with through trial and error but the personal brand that well-fitting personal brand would be so i'm going through this process now you know doing it on lindind and it's super interesting and also to your point and you know how why this works is i think this is also rooted in party in the neurobiology and how we are wired because it's probably also experienced there's different stages of life. We tend to find mates, other people, who kind of reflect who we are at that stage.

And very often when we pass through that stage, much years later, we look back and, oh, my God, I was this person. But how was it possible? Right. We leave that behind. And so this can also, so this works also on social media that we connect with those people, that, you know, we feel like like-minded. We have something common. And then we can see who they are, what they present, because everyone presents the best parts of themselves on social media.

And that can be very beneficial because, you know, of course I don't want to integrate the worst into my business from others. I want to steal, you know, to use the best. And that can be very helpful. And it's also, it works, the neurobiologic part is because it's, there is this, you know, neural pathways and parts of the brain, probably maybe you have heard mirror neurons. And so what it's the people is that. So it's more complex. It's basically, you know, when we have a conversation, it's like, almost like, you know,

we immediately unconsciously adopt to the other person and we kind of pick up the cues and style of the other person in order to be able to have a conversation or an interaction. And it works in social media. So I use it actually. I have been using this for many years very, very consciously because I discovered this quite a long time ago that we can use this, you know, seeing others who I am drawn to.

And I have a tendency to be very strong. drawn to people that I feel they might be very similar to me. Yeah. Again, this kind of mirror neuron, you know, it's what we seek and also psychologically in many ways. And you know, what can I learn from that experience? Not just simply that I made a new connection, I made a new friend or business partner, but what does it tell me about myself, who I connect with? And it's again, it's just looking through my life, you know, just seeing also different

other phases when I was not doing well mentally in different ways and the people I connected with very much reflected that. And at the time, I was not completely aware of why that was happening. So we can use it this way. So if someone is aware of these mechanisms, we can learn. It's a very, very good source of learning and knowledge who we are drawn to online. That's such a deep thought. Like I can tell, first time, I love it.

And thank you for sharing that because I think it is a model people can use to make their life better. And if you just take a moment to think about, how could you possibly recognize something in someone else unless it existed in you, whether it's good or bad? You know, and I've gone down those rabbit holes where I'm like, I don't even like this person. I'd be mean to someone. And then I have this realization like, why am I being mean to them? Oh, I think they're weak. And then I'm like, I'm weak. Oh, no, I'm the one that's weak, you know?

You're like, dang it. Now I've got to fix it. I've got to go apologize to that person. I've got to fix this. But it's so powerful because it is, whether it's a mirror neuron or a mirror image or our relationship to ourselves. It is those things in the other that define who we are. And it's such a weird thing to think about. But I'm so glad you shared that.

I think it's a beautiful thing. And I hope people can add that to their life. But I wanted to talk another minute about you are doing this building in public thing. And you are the first person. I know that people have talked about it, but you're the first person that I have encountered that's doing, building your business in front of people. And I think it's part of this new way of building community, building business, building your brand, building relationship to it. And I'm wondering if you could maybe help someone who's never heard about that concept before.

Maybe you could break it down for them. Oh yeah, absolutely. Actually, I'm not the best example. I'm very far from the best example because I do a very moderate version of this for various reasons. So I don't, you know, just put out everything online and don't post as frequently

as many other people. So there are many actually we are going to have in a couple weeks, a live discussion, a panel discussion, just about this concept during the public. So we'll post about it and we will post about it on on LinkedIn. You will be able to see.

Yeah, we'll love it. But it's definitely a very, it's a very helpful experience. And also I learned, I have been active on England only for a year, a little bit over a year now. Before I just had a profile, I never really posted anything. I never looked at it. I just put it there to find me. And in the beginning, I was very hesitant to get into it. I'm still hesitant for different reasons. For example, my product is also has some, you know, it's a kind of health-related product.

which comes with very serious legal aspects and regulations and security implications that are super important. You can go immediately crash if you don't handle those. So we have to be very careful how we speak about it and how much you share online before it's established sufficiently to meet all those requirements. So I'm really, I'm very conscious about this. I don't do as much as many others.

But it's definitely very, very, very useful. It's also in terms of the, you know, who we find connect with online. And one aspect of this, and it has been a lot of my experience, is that when you feel that we find someone who is, seems like like, like, you know, very similar in different ways, that's a perception because very often online, of course, especially online, we don't know that person, we don't know anything about their lives, especially on LinkedIn people, don't post as much about their personal life. the day-to-day life. So it's more a perception and intuition.

We can put it that way. And very often, it can be misleading, and I experienced these many times, that it can be actually a lot of that part of it, that intuition, initial intuition and impression can be projection. Because that's also something that we are wired to make projections. That's also part of how, you know, that's the whole system that we're just very briefly,

a little too in the brain, the mirror neurons and sound, the circuitry. So it's basically, we never really have access to, you know, I don't want to get very philosophical now and, you know, getting the whole different area, but, you know, we never really have access directly to, you know, reality, what is reality. And that's why it's a huge, it has always been a big philosophical question. And now it's a scientific question. And so it's also the same for, you know,

other people when you meet other people. I think very often what happens is that when we meet somebody new, we are just wired to six similarities and it's very emotional, so it's driven by emotional, like emotional relating and whether it's coming from

an experience that that other person shares, let's say, online and I experience, so it's like sympathy or it's something else, it's more like thinking style, that's how I tend to relate, like you know, this intellectual connection, that's my all this and you know thinking styles and voice I have a very you know good kind of

read us for that to recognize that I really jump on that because I love to have interactions with people who are similar in that way and but often I had many experiences when I initially thought and I was so excited that I found a person like that it could be my best friend you my new best friend and it didn't turn out to be to turn out to be that and you know it turned out that my actually my perception were not correct because it's like it's we can also it's just this what happens is projection that there is a very like vague image that we can detect you know and then if you infuse it with intuitions and sometimes it's you know intuition is not always right and and i had many

experiences when i had this you know excitement initially excitement that i find a like-minded person and we will do something really great together and then it was the you know that we had the biggest and the obvious conflicts and the biggest level of, you know, just basically not, not compatible. And I had a few of those as well, and I learned from those and how to recognize. That's also a challenge to recognize there is a new, new connection. But I've seen it, what excites me, what drives me into it. Is it really what is out there or is it my projection? And it's very interesting to think about. That is. It's fascinating to think about. Do you, I wonder if there's a study or maybe we could just use our own lives. You know, when you, if I sat next to you, Henry, I'd be picking up different signs. Like I would be catching pheromones or I would be able to have the felt presence of you next to me. And there's so much communication that happens there. And I like what you said about infusing intuition. So when I, if you and I were together and I'm picking up all these different body signals and facial contact and stuff, I like that.

like this and we're seeing each other close with our eyes. And then I infuse my intuition in there. Do you think that that's a much better read than me trying to infuse my intuition into who you are now? Because even though we talk, like, we can build this great bond together and we can infuse this intuition in there, do you, like part of me thinks that it's, I can have the same connection, even though I know that's not logical. Like, I know that if I was next to you,

you and I could, if I could see you and we were having that exchange, it would be a deeper connection. But I still feel the way I can infuse my intuition into this conversation that we have a deep connection. Am I lying to myself there? Are we lying to ourselves when we do that? I think it's, you know, it's just taking this, you know, what we are doing as an example. In my opinion, we would have to, you know, take it further and see if it's, you know, what is in it in a long time. So that's my experience with this type of connection. But I completely what you mentioned about the you know the the the different types of experience is social media and online is extremely limited and many people say that it's even you know it's they don't even like to

to they need to they really they have a need a strong need to to to experience the person also in reality in 3D reality in person before they make a decision to form anything closer with them because they just don't like that you know limited perception that can can be very very misleading with the projections and so on. So having more data point, that's how I like to, you know, to call it. Like as a scientist, basically what you mentioned, that experience in someone else in 3D reality, like all different channels, different channels of communication,

even just the visual, you know, just imagine doing this without the visual. Yeah. What you do on LinkedIn, just text. That's why people love videos these days. That's why it's always videos post. it's received much more engagement because people like it. It's like you don't even need to think it's unconscious that we prefer having that data. And it creates, so it fine-tunes those intuitions, those initial perceptions.

The more data we have, of course, the more accurate it becomes. And it's just very much like even the machines, the AI models that are modeled, on, you know, the human brain and the neural networks and all that. So it's the same. and how those are trained in the beginning, but it's not trained correctly, a model like that. It will, if you hallucinate and it will do all kinds of, it will give you a wrong advice and everything.

Very much, it's very similar. It's also, if we don't receive enough data from another person and from their reality, it's very limited. And the question is that, you know, how much is, how much is real and how much is just imagination? Yeah, I bring up this point when my, when COVID came, and I think a lot of this, a lot of people affected, were affected by going to school online. I know my daughter was going to school online. And one of the points that I brought up to the counselors was this idea of atrophy, like an atrifying relationship.

Because we can have this great conversation and you can learn online. You can watch a YouTube video and learn probably anything out there now. But I'm wondering if on some level, not being in the felt presence of the other person is going to be something that we lose later. Like we're losing this relationship. We're losing the ability to interpret these things. We're losing this deeper connection. And I don't know if that's true, but it seems like there's a possibility of it. I'm wondering what you think about that.

Yeah, I definitely agree. It's like, you know, it's not only that we lose data, potentially. in the data point that it's not possible to obtain. But definitely it's, you know, just having a relationship online. It's not the same as having a relationship in person. So, you know, where it's going to lead to? That's a big question that's if you have to see, because the world is definitely, you know, after the COVID,

you know, how that changed the world and now it's every, everything is more geared over the online. And I know, again, the technology technology is going to evolve. and we have just more and more and more of this platform and to us. We will have to see where it leads to. And one thing that I would be very curious is about this, is that are we going to be able to adopt to this to a level? It's like, you know, we discussed about mental health

and how the modern, you know, the world lifestyles in the last past 10 years. It's not, we didn't have enough. The speed is so high. We didn't have our biological, you know, are working. We don't have enough time to adopt to that, to meet some of the requirement, and it creates dissonances, and that's why we have many of the mental health issues in part. So it can happen also due to this, you know, tendency toward the online and technology. And so that's why the result is, you know, the excitement, on one hand, all the excitement

about the technology and the AI and those tools, but also a lot of people are really in the very, very intense fear and it's a that fear is driven by many different things and in part it's because many people just are afraid of of losing exactly what you've said that losing this uh there's uh the way they they they know uh connection human connection and so they are they have today at work there will be AI tools they have to talk to an AI instead of another human and a large portion of that you know work hours and so many people don't like I'm actually much more excited about that because I'm very I got into this virtual world and living you know in the online world like very very long time ago and that was actually a problem

for me for a long time and so I found a way out kind not really out but find a way to find it useful and to turn into a business so I'm satisfied with it now so I'm more excited about it than than fearful yeah we'll have to see so course it's a concern. I really definitely believe that the way it develops the speed with which develops this technology now. We won't be, biology won't be able to follow that, to, you know, to reach the same level of speed and to emerge later. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes I feel like we're co-evolving with this other organism at the same time. And I, I, I am so thankful that you talked about how enamored you are with it

and that you have a good relationship with it that you can build a new version of yourself together with it instead of being afraid of it. Because I do see a lot of fear out there where people are like, ah, AI is going to do this, it's going to do that. And I'm not saying it won't do that, but you can choose the meaning of it for yourself.

You can choose to have a valuable relationship with it. I can choose to talk to Henrietta Sue Torres is in Switzerland and have an amazing conversation with someone I couldn't have done five or seven years ago. I can choose to find my people. I can choose to find a tribe of people or I can choose to participate in a call to action that someone is fighting for in a foreign country that I believe in. And there is something unifying and beautiful about it. And I do think that it's almost like this rebirth. Like we're beginning to reimagine what we as individual can be. And sometimes with withdrawing from society, it's almost like a tide, right? Like the tide

goes out and then it comes back in. Like, we're withdrawing from these isms. And maybe it's a new ism, but we're moving into this new version of ourselves. And it's exciting. I think it's beautiful. And some of the things that I see happening are amazing. Like, just in this conversation alone, we've covered the ideas of addiction and recovery. We've talked about how you have started off with this problem with anxiety as a young, as a, as a as a young woman, your relationship with your father, then moving into anxiety and then starting your own business to help other people like a younger Henrietta. And it's just so amazing how we can cover all of that. We can cover a lifetime of learning. And, and you and I can both stream it to hundreds, if not thousands of people across

time and it can help them. Like it's so beautiful in so many ways. I know it's kind of a rambling thought there, but it's really beautiful. Yeah, I completely agree. You know, and so we have the same kind of approach and mindset, but it's not everyone. So I'm a big advocate, and I speak about this publicly and online, I say social media and everywhere that, you know, trying to kind of, because, you know, not to, this mindset, you know, it's just, again, it's like you said, that we have, we have a very, we don't, not, we don't have a, I don't believe in, you know, just, again, I don't want to get very

philosophical and, you know, to, to digress very much. But I don't personally believe that we have 100% free will, that, you know, we can always, you know, everything is just nothing, it's really nothing is, it's not determined externally, but anyway, so that's another topic. Yeah. But it's, we can, we have a very high level of freedom to choose, but the mindset and, you know, choosing, but, you know, Bosworth, choosing a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and all these different ways of thinking. But many people who are fearful about this technologies and this. the online world and the AI. It's, you know, their background is a bit different. And I don't think that we have the option to kind of dismiss them

because it's actually probably a larger portion of the world at the moment where more fearful. For example, they are afraid of losing their jobs and things like it, which is very buried. But you can have what you can do is, you know, people like, for example, all my life is like myself is lead with example, you know, the way I think about it and I use it for business and I use it to create something that will help people in a positive way. Of course there will be, we will have to face many challenges, but it's always part of life

and it will always be part of life, even if without it, we just completed for some reason, we lost the internet and the computers and everything, suddenly we just went back to that era. then we still have challenges and problems in life that we have to resolve. So this is the 21st century challenges, probably part of it. Yeah, I love it. I love the idea that, and I see this kind of emerging through AI in conversations like this. And one thing I see emerging is this idea that if you can become the best version of yourself, then you can change the world.

And it's so tricky to think about it like that because a lot of us have this idea, like we want to leave something behind. Like we want people to think of us as doing good. And I really see this thing happening where the better you, the more you love yourself, the more you believe in yourself, the better version of yourself you can become. It allows you to have more faith. And that draws people towards you. And all of a sudden, just you making small changes in becoming the best person you can has a radical effect. on the people around you. And then it's almost like that,

you throw that little pebble into the pond and then those waves ripple out. Like that's each one of us. Back to the philosophical part of Georgia, but we're all that little pebble, it seems like. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely. So it's, you know, but it's so,

it's like, what is the best, we can ask what the best version of ourselves is, because that's also very subjective. So how do you measure, you know, how do I measure, you know, how do we assess that? at every stage of life in every moment. And that can also be, you know, the confidence

and thinking that, you know, there's a good self-esteem and self-love. It's another buzzword that I'm not a big fan of, but maybe people use it all the time. And you know these things are meant to be positive, but it's also, it's just like most many other things. It depends on the dosage. And because too much of these things can also be detrimental.

It's just like, you know, those behaviors, that we spoke about the obsession and being very engaged, very involved. It's a in the right dosage. It's a good thing, but if it's excessive, it's not. And then I think it will be very, it is very similar with all these other things. As far, self-imidiv, and, you know, it's just all these things that another trend these days. Many people, for example, it's another big interest in relation to mental health, you know, talking about narcissism, for example, and what that is.

And I'm very interested in that because of from a more, it's again, it's from the psychological and the neuroscience point of view and, you know, how those personal disorders work and things like that, but just a narcissism. And, you know, the popular, the lay public usually associates with that image is someone who is grandiose. So that person usually is at least displays a very high, you know, a very high level of confidence and a very, very, very positive self-image to the point that

doesn't seem realistic and it's probably not realistic. And I think we can, there is always a fine line, like this spectrum that it depends where we are on that spectrum, whether or not it's using something constructively or maybe not. Yeah, that's what I said. They say, I once heard someone say that, you know, in the Western, world, if you wake up one morning and you run into town and you tell you, well, listen, I am God, I am God. They'll lock you up. But in the Eastern cultures, if you run into town, you say, I'm God, they'll say, congratulations. You figured it out. Yeah. That's crazy, right?

Yeah, that's interesting. It's like, you know, what's the meaning of words? And, you know, that's also how subjective that can be that, you know, what someone associates with the word God. Yeah, yeah. Depending on your background and everything. It's, Definitely, you know, is it an ideal to become godlike? Or is it something that we should not pursue because that's a bit too much? And that's also that you can apply that to other, you know, the technology because that's particular in more of the discussion that, you know, these concepts and ideas that, you know, the relationships between this, between this, you know, the AI, you know, identity and whether completely, you know, different person onus. and if there is any where that comes from, because many people believe that who have this spiritual interest

that they apply that to us. These days in the modern era, the era of technology, that maybe that's how they see those god figures. It's another very modern society and things like it. And so whether or not it's a good thing or not, it's hard to judge, I think, In every given moment, we just have to make choices.

That's our challenge. We aim to make the best choices in every moment and then see what happens and use the lessons and try to draw the best lessons and not to be misguided. Yeah. It's interesting, this idea of choices and guiding and living our life. I'm wondering, would you mind sharing what system do you use or what tools do you use? or what tools do you use, or how do you evaluate yourself becoming the best version of yourself? Yeah, that's a good question.

I ask that myself as well very often. I don't think I have the ultimate answer to that, but I can tell you how I judge it or how I assess it. So, again, it's very, very strongly related to self-awareness, and it changed. I think it's probably the same for everyone, that the more self-awareness you develop, more you are interested in these questions. When I was much younger, you know, in my teens, early 20s, I was not, I was always introspective, but I was not nearly as aware of actually how things to really work for various reasons.

Part of it was just, I was not as interested because it was not everywhere around me. And the way I judge it, it's when I was younger, I basically, I just thought my, I just, I just followed my curiosity. That was my biggest drive. And I was also, I just had this discussion actually. I just responding to someone's post this morning on LinkedIn that, that, you know, it's just this suggestion that we should not listen to what other people say and follow other people's opinions.

So actually, that was a problem for me when I was younger, because when I was much younger, I was so basically not caring what anyone said. And, you know, I just not caring about expectations. just, you know, it's just doing what I wanted. So that was my biggest drive. And very often it was a bit, much more spontaneous than it is now. Because, you know, young youth, it's part of youth, you know, being we are more impulsive and with less knowledge and everything.

It was more, like, more instinctive and, you know, just following instincts and curiosity. Those were my biggest drives. Now it's much more. I always assess whatever I do and how I see myself, is that, you know, just looking at the larger picture and looking at also what is my goal. And it's always, I like to assess these things in a specific context because, you know, if you just ask the question, if you ask me that question, what is the best version of me?

Yeah, it depends in what context. Yeah. What person are things. And so I like to, so I think it's for me, it's important to define goals, both short-term and long-term goals. Of course, there is a level of always been unsubed. certainty, many things won't succeed and so on, but to have goals. And then one type of assessment that we can always, always do is to see to assess how

how much closer we have gotten to that goal, that purpose, you know, whatever we want to achieve. That's one way. In terms of, you know, being a good person or, you know, like personal attributes, it's very strongly also related to personal values that people have. I think everyone, it's a lot of psychology. I could speak about that also for two hours or more. But, you know, it's a very, I find it very helpful.

For example, I got into this through my addiction recovery. One of the programs that I really liked, they had this exercise that we had to come up. We had to think about what are five primary values in life, like just general, because it can be very important because it's where it's values change throughout the lifespan. But there is a tendency that some of it tends to be stable. You know, it's part of our identity and who we are. It can be very helpful to identify those. And it's a very interesting exercise.

I do this. I always redo this every now and then and see if it's still think the same and fine-tune it. That can be very helpful because, you know, what are my values? The ideal state of being, and it's also, that's what gives me the more the high level of satisfaction. if I feel that I am aligned with my values in terms of my actions, my actions aligned with my values. It was also a bigger, part of the biggest, one of the biggest difficulties in addiction, in experiencing addiction, the cognitive dissonance, this, you know, values one thing and then what I do is another thing, so they don't match. And then all the hiding and manipulation and everything to keep up with this discrepancy, to maintain it. it. And for me, that's one thing that I seek out very consciously, you know, they think about

these things. And it's every day I do this assessment, basically, even I don't, not in a very, you know, articulate way. I don't talk to other people about this all at a time, but just in my head, that, you know, whatever I do in every, every day, is it, is it, I like to, just a very simple. Whatever, whatever motivation I have or impulse I have, is it useful? at this very moment, how is it useful for you instead of just pleasurable or, you know, fun? Because it's important, but that's not all of it. So it's always in the context of larger goals. And also part of it is also exploring the unknown for me.

I've always been very driven by novelty. That's why I have this whole career in the first. So I just simply like the process of trying out almost like sometimes. as I describe it, trying out different identities. So, you know, different professions, different interests and how that works. So that's also just interesting. What I can do with this different base of approaching life. I love that.

That's such a beautiful way to do it. And I think it provides people listening to this or watching some tools. And I really am kind of fascinated about the idea of trying on different identities. And it's true. If you're willing to be honest with yourself, you can, and you can, if you're willing to be honest with yourself

and you take time to contemplate what's going on in your life, you can pretend to be a different person and even become that other person for a little bit and see what it's like and play with the idea of, well, if I was this way, then people would think of me like that.

And sometimes when you do that, you can get a really good reflection or a third person point of you about yourself. Like it's a whole other perspective. Like I'm glad you brought that up. That is an effective tool to change your life. It's pretty profound, really. It is very, it is very completely agree.

It's very helpful to try this. And we can actually use relationships in this way. Because if there is someone who is, you know, I mentioned earlier that I like to connect with people who are similar to myself. But that's actually not always very often that's not the most useful. type of relationship because, you know, we don't have a, we just seek out the same things. We have the same weaknesses and everything, so we don't really complement. So, and we can use many different experiences in this way to, you know, to find to in this

image, even just looking at what type of image and, you know, personal brand, someone presents online and learned from that and try it out. And it's experimenting. So it's very, I think it's always good to be experimental, because. again, I love theory, as you can see. You know, I'm not against that at all. But it's, if we only stick with, if we get stuck at that level and they don't apply experience, we can be very, very misguided and using only intuition.

Intuition is always so generally. Basically, intuition, very often, people feel that it's like something esoteric, you know, mysterious. But, you know, again, I accrued to, you know, it's from a kind of neuroscience, psychology perspective and it's basically it's not much more than perceptions that we are conscious about you know and then we can become conscious about and then of course based on this because we accumulate experience over lifespan intuition can become much more accurate with more experience the more experience and data we accumulate the more accurate it can become also yeah i love that and i and i i

I would agree. I think that maybe in the last 100 years or maybe the last since the Industrial Revolution, this idea of mysticism has kind of gotten a bad rap. If we look at people, like maybe one of the greatest philosophers ever was Alfred North Whitehead. And he spoke really highly of mysticism. He has this quote that I always keep with me that says, the last part of the quote says, mysticism, clarification, action. And when I think about mysticism. I think about intuition. And it's just this ability to read what's happening where you can't put it into words. Like, it's not that there's not a language there. It's not that there's something that you're making up. It's that there's something there you're interpreting, but there's no,

you currently don't have the words to explain it. And it's not always right, but a lot of the times you're picking up on something for a reason. Like, when you, you read about it all the time, whether people knew their spouse was cheating on them or they knew that there was a problem with their kid. You know, it's this culmination of signs that have been weighing on you, but you just for some reason, I haven't picked them up. I think intuition is something that, you know, maybe isn't something you should hang your hat on, but it's definitely something I would encourage people to embrace and try to learn how to be more effective at. What do you think?

Yeah, it's definitely, it's being given us an advice by psychonists and, you know, coaches and people like that. It's for people who are not really naturally using intuition as much as I use it a lot. I use it a lot. I use this way. But, you know, there are different. Many people are not very, some people are not as comfortable because intuition. Because, you know, intuition is like internal, like, subjective, you know, just combine it with our own internal world and how we put things together. And many people are not very comfortable of that because they prefer just using really just hardcore data. they don't trust anything if it's not data. And so that can block the use of intuitions, because intuition is kind of works in the other way.

So we incorporate a lot of subjective perceptions and connections, we connect the dots in different ways, not necessarily. For example, I had to learn as a scientist. It was a challenge in the beginning of my career, because I was always, I had a very like, you know, this kind of intuitive thinking very strongly, or this and when I started doing experimental science, my first mentor really gave me a really hard time

to actually look at the data and use data. So he said that he was very, you know, kind of harsh and rude words to me, you know, you have to learn that because that's why you are here, you are here to do science, not just to speculate. Right. To use data. And then, and then so many people are just naturally like that and, you know, just basically they don't care so much about this theoretical, these mental things and they don't have, they're not a thing. and so, you know, they more focus outwardly and that focus on, you know, the external cues and whatever they can see and reach and with the five senses, as many senses as we can speak about.

And that's what they accept and they don't accept this subjective connection making. But I think everyone is using that. It's just some people just have a preference for more like hardcore databases. these subjective processes. It's a weird thing that you know, from a scientist that, you know, I actually prefer the intuition over data. But you have to, I think you have to use a combination of both in order to be realistic.

Well, I think that this is something that is that, I think that this is something that's probably made you successful. And I think that it's this foundation that's going to make objective recovery and incredible success is that, And if we pan back out, you know, science has carried us a long way. But I think what we're seeing in mysticism and intuition are bad words in science. Hey, we want the data. We want the data.

But I think what people fail to remember is that someone has to interpret that data. And when you interpret something, what are you doing? When you are, you know, when you translate, you interpret and all of a sudden, there's your intuition. Like you can't get rid of it. It's in there. How do we interpret these numbers? What does this brain scan mean? Well, this is just confirmation?

bias. So it's we we on some level I love science and I'm so glad that there's hardcore data says out there that have carried us where we are and that they have that perspective because we need both. But science without spirituality I think can only go so far. And by spirituality, I mean intuition or or interpretation like the two go together like the double helix. Like we need both of those bars to come up. We need that so that we can move forward. And I think we're seeing, I think you are a prime example of someone who is on the edge of what is possible through beating addiction and starting a company to help people move through it and you have these unique insights.

You're building a business out in the open. You're on the cutting edge of what people are doing. And in a lot of ways, you're leading the way. And I see this heartfelt expansion into intuition as a really positive thing. And I'm thankful that you're talking about it because I know for a scientist, you know, sometimes it is a bad word. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Thank you. So it's actually, it's also speaking of, you know,

fine-tuning intuition with data, actual hardcore data. That's also part of our goes, just to mention very briefly with objective recovery that I talked a bit about the assessment that we are building. But later on I also have a plan to integrate much more, you know, like organic biomarkers that can be, you know, genetic, genetic information and other things that the brain imaging and things like that can be used. to fine-tune this the assessment that we are building is very intuitive it's basically you know it's based on the i'm the conceptual you know drive behind it and just putting it together and so it's

very intuitive it's very i actually don't even that's why sometimes i get stuck in my own head and i have to go back and redo a lot of things because i i just prefer to to follow my own my own mind rather than you know just look up the data sometimes but in the end that's that's part of the the reason that I also want to integrate data. But just one point at you is, so you brought up this spiritual and, you know, mysticism. So that's actually also one thing that I'm very glad to see that that's people, like, even ordinary people who would not be interested in like what's ordinary, but who would not be interested in this.

It's these days, many people are much more open to those dimensions as well. And because it's, I think in part, in part, it's. also it's the progression of what has led to that is this you know the awareness and this whole you know one of the biggest basic questions of humans human nature is that you know what's behind what's beyond just us as human beings and that's that's what leads to all the spiritual and you know religion religions and what is different different areas and people are more open to that and even And I'm very glad to see that even science is much more open to that. To use many of those to integrate many of those as tools.

We will definitely also integrate it also in objective recovery and offer those as treatment options, you know, treatment recommendations to the people who seem to match, who seem to have an interest in those. Because there are many, there have been many scientific studies, you know, it's just one area that many neuroscientist study now. These days is meditation. the other benefits of meditation.

It used to be perceived as something as a take, and, you know, people don't see it that way, because people don't know these days, not associated necessarily with, you know, Buddhism and things like that. It's more just an exercise that we can do for different purposes. And all the other, you know, the psychedelics and all these other interests, and so it's also, it's, the world is becoming definitely,

you know, our horizons are definitely opening up. So that's why I'm so excited to live in this. era, this year, years because it's just so many possibilities like endless and it's compared to like 10 years ago even, definitely 20 years ago. It's very, very different. So yeah, so this brings us back to that we started off part of our conversation talking about mental health in the 21st century. And I have a new perspective after talking to you for the even though it's been like it almost a couple hours, but like it seemed like it went so fast. But ending in that short time,

I've had a reflection. And if I use your life as the metaphor, like you started off with recovery. But now, like the last half of our conversation has been about optimization. You've told me all these ways you've optimized your life. You've shared with those tools that you've used. You've talked about ways in which you've seen the world.

And it really seems to me like you've optimized and you're continuing to do so. And so I think that that that is, is what mental health in the 21st century is going to be. We're going to be moving from recovery to optimization. And it's happening. And I can see it in you alone. Like I'm looking at the sign that says objective recovery.

And you tell us the story. And then here you are 20, 30 years later, optimizing. And that is the path that objective recovery is going to show to people. When people come in and they meet you, they're going to see your story. When they watch this, you're going to see your story. They're going to see where you are. And I think it's a story of optimization. Maybe recovery is the beginning of optimization.

What do you think? Definitely, the way I see recovery, that's exactly how I see it. Because, you know, just getting into recovery after, you know, just having a big problem, that's a long process. So that's definitely, very definitely a process of optimization. And the other word that is being used for this is another buzzword is a self-improvement. And that's also another life fashion. trend is based and it's to the point that some people even suggest that it's too much, that we are always preoccupied by the thoughts of self-improvement and improvement improvement.

So I am by nature also. It's a big, you know, improvement junkie to put it that way. And sometimes it's so I definitely feel I don't reject those ideas when they suggest that it can be a bit too much sometimes because it can prevent, I tend to struggle very often and being able to relax. And, you know, if you always think in that way that you want to optimize, you want to improve, and even just thinking, even just the thought processes,

to optimize your thought processes. So always on and on and on, it's just spinning all the time. So you never relax. And so that can definitely be also a problem because, you know, we need rest as well. And we also need sometimes. And, you know, that's why people develop these ideas that self-acceptance or acceptance or acceptance.

and you know, radical acceptance, whatever term and terminology you like to focus on. And so it's, that's also one of those things that it's definitely optimization and improvement is a good thing, but not, probably not excessively. So it's the question of dosage, what is the right dosage and what is the right way to, what is the optimal way to optimize something? It's like being very meta. Yeah, totally. It is, definitely. Henry, I'm having an absolute blast with you.

And I really, you know, you and I have talked quite a bit on LinkedIn. And we have shared some thoughts about posts. And we've had some really great conversations. But I got to say, talking to you here has exceeded all of my expectations. I really enjoyed it. And I'm hopeful that we can do it more often because I think that the tools you're providing for people are. I mean, I'm a little selfish because the tools are. helping me. So I'm hopeful that they help other people. So I thank you for doing that.

And I'm curious if there's anything that we, is there anything that we haven't covered that that you wanted to cover? It's probably it's time to wrap up because it's just, I think it's probably for the sake of the audience, you know, not to lose them. But I think we can leave it at that. And again, I also would like to thank you very much for having me. And I tremendously enjoy this conversation. And, you know, just getting to know you a bit. And I don't. I definitely also agree that, you know, we have, you know, just many shared interests and overlaps and how we approach things. So it's a lot of fun.

And so speaking of improvement and optimization, I would be, you know, if you want, I would be happy to come back another time. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe in a year or something like that. Sure than that. It can be also helpful for me, you know, as a kind of accountability that, you know, having that is a perspective that, you know, what am I going to do? going to present in a year. Yeah. So hopefully it will be an improved version of the company and myself and everything.

Yeah. In my mind's eye, I have this idea of building a platform where people can have like an interesting debate. Like some of the topics that we covered, I thought it would be fascinating if we could get like a panel of four people. And then we could have a topic that maybe people are, maybe it's chat GPT or maybe it's this idea of optimization. and we could all have a different opinion about what it was,

and then halfway through we would be forced to argue from the other point of view. And I think that that would be an interesting conversation for people to join in. So anyways, I've got a lot of things I'm working on in my mind, too, is what I guess I'm trying to say. And I would love to have you back way sooner than a year. I'm definitely going to hold your feet to the fire and keep you accountable because I think that people can follow on this journey and they can learn. Before I let you go, though, where can people find you,

what do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah, so the best way at the moment to find me would be LinkedIn. So if you just take my name, it's very unique. So just everyone can find me very easily. There is also a lot of information about my scientific research and publications, that everything online. And many of those, unfortunately, are not accessible publicly because the Germans put it behind a payball. but please if anyone anyone is interested, reach out to me.

I can always send a copy for three of those publications. And most importantly, we will have a website up soon for Objective Recovery. It will be objective recovery.com. So objective recovery, one word, dot com. And so people will be able to find more information specifically about this. There will also be educational aspects. And also just to mention that we plan to have actually You just mentioned that it would be interesting to have a panel discussion.

Yeah. This is one thing that we, that I think it would be very, very interesting probably for your podcast. So do you do some of those because they can be really fun and have different perspectives? But we plan to do one of those quite soon in about two weeks of time with some other people on LinkedIn. And the topic will be building a business in public and how we different. So we are a small group of people doing different, building different businesses with quite different backgrounds and we share different stories and our perspectives and answer questions. So there we will post about that on LinkedIn and usually it's also when I, I don't really attend many conferences this year because I want to focus on this company and building the product. But when I do, I will also post about that or they will be on the website.

Yeah, I can't wait to check it all out. It sounds fascinating to me. I would recommend everybody listening to this or watching this. Go to the show notes. Check out Henrietta, see what she's going on. She's an incredibly compassionate person who has helped a lot of people and I think is about to help more people than she could possibly imagine with objective recovery. I'm really thankful that you were kind enough to share your experiences. I think that that's the way people learn is through stories and understanding other people's traumas and it's not always easy to talk about them. So thank you for doing that. I will be in touch. And ladies and gentlemen, hang on for one second, I'm going to hang up with everybody, but I want to talk to you for one more moment. So ladies and

gentlemen, thank you so much for being here and spending time with us. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. And we will be back soon. Aloha, everybody. Thank you so much.