TrueLife - Iboga - Self Reflections w/Patrick & Michelle Fishley

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/There are moments in our lives when the veil lifts—when the illusions fall away and what remains is truth, raw and unfiltered. It is in these moments that we are called to choose: to turn back into the shadows of familiarity, or to walk forward into the fire of awakening. Today, you’re about to meet two people who have not only walked that path—but have become guides for those ready to burn away what no longer serves and to stand in the flame of their own becoming.Patrick and Michele Fishley are the founders of Soul Reflections, the world’s first global online Iboga/Ibogaine community—a sanctuary for practitioners, providers, seekers, and visionaries alike. But their story isn’t just digital—it’s deeply spiritual, rooted in blood, bone, and ancient tradition. They are Ngangas—healers and seers—initiated into the sacred Bwiti traditions of Gabon, recognized by the elders themselves, not just for their knowledge, but for their courage, their humility, and their relentless commitment to truth.Patrick, known in the Bwiti tradition as DIBADI Mabunza Mukuku a Kandja—the warrior with the Bwete force and flames of truth from his mouth—is a Registered Nurse with over three decades of experience in Emergency Rooms, ICUs, and trauma bays. A Medical Director and lead facilitator, he has guided over 1,500 Iboga journeys with a perfect safety record. His work bridges the primal and the clinical, the ancestral and the modern.Michele, known as Yakéta—Mother of Twins, Mother of All—is a Licensed Practical Nurse and a transformational integration coach with over 18 years of acute care experience. She is a fierce and nurturing presence in the space, initiated into the sacred feminine lineages of the Nyèmbè and Mabundi traditions. Michele brings the power of the mother, the healer, and the spiritual midwife into every ceremony, retreat, and conversation.Together, Patrick and Michele have turned their lives into a living ceremony. They carry the medicine not just in their hands, but in their hearts. Through their annual pilgrimages to Gabon, they continue to deepen their commitment to the Bwiti traditions—honoring the land, the elders, and the sacred fire of Iboga.Their mission is simple yet profound: to weave ancient wisdom with modern healing, to create safe, soul-rooted spaces for transformation, and to remind us that real healing is not a transaction—it is a sacred initiation.So if you’re ready to hear from two of the most grounded, experienced, and spiritually aligned voices in the Iboga space… buckle up. This conversation isn’t just a discussion—it’s a portal.https://soulreflections.net/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast with two Ds for a double dose of episodes today.

I'm so stoked to introduce some incredible people today, ladies and gentlemen. I think you're going to love this. I know I already love it. Let me just jump in here with what I got. There are moments in our lives when the veil lifts. When the illusions fall away and what remains is truth, raw and unfiltered. It is in these moments that we are called to choose, to turn back into the shadows of familiarity,

or to walk forward into the fire of awakening. Today you're about to meet two people who have not only walked that path, but have become guides for those ready to burn away what no longer serves and to stand in the flame of their own becoming. Patrick and Michelle Fishley are the founders of soul reflections, the world's first global online iBoga-Ibo-Gain community, a sanctuary for practitioners, providers, seekers, and visionaries alike. But their story isn't just digital. It's deeply spiritual, rooted in blood, bone, and the ancient tradition. They are the Nagongas, healers, and seers. initiated into the sacred Boiti traditions of Gabon, recognized by the elders themselves,

not just for their knowledge, but for their courage, their humility, and the relentless commitment to truth. Patrick known in the Boiti tradition as Dibadi, Mabunza Makuku, Akhandaji, sorry for the pronunciation, the warrior with the Boitie force and flames of truth from his mouth is a registered nurse with over three decades of experience in emergency rooms, ICU's, and trauma base, a medical director and lead facilitator. He has guided over 1,500 Iboga journeys with a perfect safety record. His work bridges the primal and the clinical, the ancestral, and the modern. Michelle, known as the Yaceta, mother of twins, mother of all, is a licensed practical nurse and a transformational integration coach with over 18 years of acute care experience. She's a

furious and nurturing presence in the space, initiated into the sacred feminine lineages of the Nyehemi and Mabundi traditions. Michelle brings the power of the mother, the healer, and the spiritual midwife into every ceremony, retreat, and conversation. Together, Patrick and Michelle have turned their lives into a living ceremony. They carry the medicine not just in their hands, but in their hearts. Through the annual pilgrimages to Gabon, they continue to deepen their commitment to the Boiti traditions honoring the land, the elders, and the sacred fire of Iboga. Michelle, Patrick, thank you so much for being here today. It's a total honor to talk to you.

Thank you for having us. Thank you for that introduction. Holy cow. It's important. You know, when I was doing some research and talking to the incredible Kimberly Adams, who everybody should know Kimberly Adams. She's an amazing individual. And when it comes to grief, I think she is someone who is really at the bedside of it

and bringing the stories to light. So thank you, Kimberly, for the introductions. in doing all that you do. But it's important. I think that you guys have a really incredible background and you're steeped in the actual traditions and stuff. But before we get there, is there, what brought you to this?

I mean, you guys both had these medical careers. You're in medicine. Probably things were going down this path that you thought was a normal path. And like, what happened, man? Why did that turn to Iboga? Well, if I have to tell the truth, I was in a multi-level marketing.

And my upline said, hey, have you ever heard of Ibigen? And, you know, for like, you know, detoxing and such. And you knew that we were both nurses in this field. And I said, yeah, it's kind of cool. So we started up a little business treating, like especially the downtown east side of Vancouver, which is a real notorious space for addictions.

when we started that. And then moving along, we saw such amazing, you know, amazing acts of feat with this medicine. And you were introduced to the whole medicine, the whole Iboga part of it in traditional style and fell in love with it. It's like, now this is where we need to be because it's just so much more, you know, so much more.

So those MLM companies, you know, they're good for things sometimes. And bringing you to this space here without it, I may not have been where I'm at now. Yeah. The versus sounds. Yeah. It's amazing the way in which the world communicates to us. And it doesn't, I think it speaks volumes of it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter where you're from. It's where you're at. And like sometimes the world, you're fortunate enough to have it collapse or you're fortunate to be in a space where something bigger calls to you. And I think it, I think it just, it echoes that. It doesn't really matter where you came from. It matters where you're at and how you get there and stuff. So from that point, you're starting to learn about epigen.

This is amazing. You're practicing this. You're working with it. But then there's a whole other level by going back to the motherland. And all of a sudden you're like, let me investigate the people that figured this thing out. Like, what was that like? And how did that relationship form? Well, it formed, I think it took longer than we would.

have wanted it to. I've always does. You know, so it was, we had been working with the medicine for the few years before we were able to go to Gabon because we wanted to go in a good way. Yeah. And with right people. And so when the opportunity came, we were like, yeah, I was terrified. To be honest.

because it is so not something that I would say I would typically do. I'm not like a big risk taker, you know, although when I think of it now, in a way I am, because we work with the medicine that's, you know, certainly not me as dreams. So, but I think when you know something is right, you know something is right. And so even though you're afraid to do it anyway. Yeah. That's a brilliant point. It's, I think it speaks to the idea of courage.

And I think that people that battle with addiction, they must find that courage. Like, you know, something's wrong. And, you know, we're speaking a little bit before the conversation about, you know, what does it take to be a guide? And for me, on my opinion, like, you have to have walked through the flames of your own destruction. Like, you've have to, if you want to understand addiction, you probably should be addicted to something. You should probably understand what it feels like to be thinking about a substance when you have your family around. you and you can't stop thinking about that substance and it steals away all those valuable minutes that you know deep in your heart like you should be embracing but you're not because

you're thinking about this other thing like woo that is a tough place to be it must be even tough to work with people like that and like you yourselves have walked through some different flames like that what are your thoughts when I say that well so that's usually the conversation that comes up if you hear about Iboga or Ibegain in particular you just coming. You said it is very true. But here's another spin on it. We all have addictions. Some of us are just addicted to our mind, our negative thought. Could you imagine being in a relationship with that negative thought running through destroying your self-work, destroying what you could be to your partner, to your children, to life, you know, in the same very

way that heroin can destroy or alcohol can destroy. Those things in our mind. can destroy, rip it apart, but we don't usually see it as such because it's internal yet affecting external. And socially acceptable. You know? I'm Patrick, I have depression. You know, I'm on lots of meds. You know, and I'm not knocking that because it's important for some people to be on these and that's fine.

But it's to realize what's actually going on. And we can become addicted to our mind, just as much as we can be to a substance, as to a behavior, to a way of thinking. And we get into that loop. You know, and that's the challenge. Luckily, that this medicine is a real mind medicine. It loves to get in, show you your mind, show you how to work with your mind, and how to remember who you actually are before the stories.

that attached to us. You know? It's about remembering in a lot of ways. Because as we sit here and everyone who's watching and everyone who's out there, the way we sit right now, believe or not, we are enough. Right now, you are enough. But you may not remember some of it. So this medicine is really good for helping us to remember that we are enough.

We're creators. you know so that's very powerful we're powerful beings one that I use quite a bit is I have everything I need you know like it's such a good one for everybody out there listening like just use like if you win you get in those dark spots just breathe in and be like I got everything I need I have everything I need it's so powerful to think about the ideas of addiction and like you had mentioned like society like how many of us are addicted to money like we're addicted to these things

we don't even know we're addicted to Like it's so crazy when you start peeling back that onion and start seeing maybe clear for the first time. Or you have what the alcoholic calls the moment of clarity or the, oh, man, you could feel it. It's visceral. It's in you. It's, it surrounds our society. It's everywhere. Yeah.

Yeah, it does. Yeah. It's prolific. And this medicine is like amazing. It's one of the things that, you know, we can guarantee will happen with people. So Ivoga works with everybody so differently. So no journey is the same. But we can tell people it's going to show you your mind.

You know, because that it knows that's where most of our problems are, you know, are in our mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why it has its reputation. Because it's really hard to face and be accountable for your own creation, which is your life as it is now. And Iboga is definitely an accountability medicine. So it's going to be like, oh, you're not happy with your life? Well, let me show you why you're responsible for it.

I create all this mess. No way. I wouldn't be listening to itself. There's no way I would do this. Oh, my gosh. No way. I'm not choosing that. Or sometimes people say, if it was that simple, I would have done it already, but that's not how that works.

Usually the simple things are the hard to do. Yeah. You know, you can't see your head through your eyes. You know what I mean? By that, like, I can see my reflection of you, and I can see it in a mirror. But, like, no matter how much I bend my head or how much I squint my, I can't see my head. But it seems like, you know, ancient traditions and people like the Boitia and there are ways that you you can. And it sounds like this medicine is one of those ways. Yeah. You know, and circle back

again to the beginning of that conversation is that, you know, we came to this medicine. I mean, we'd never heard of psychedelics and we're just mainstream, you know, doing our thing in the hospitals and whatnot, trying to help as much as we can. And then when we started working with it, it just little by little started showing us, exposing ourselves to ourselves, and showing us where our minds are, where our addictions in our minds are. I mean, I wasn't addicted to any substances other than smoking. I had a 50-year-long romance with it. That's 5-0. You know, and, you know, and I was that person on the street, you know, all the, you know, all the the sneaky way his addiction gets in there.

It's crazy. And it shows you that. It shows you also how we talk to ourselves, how we perceive ourselves. So that was a real eye-opener for us. And so that was a real saving grace because we didn't come seeking that. It was just shown to us as we were working with this medicine. And thank God it did because it made a big difference in our lives, a big impact. as us as humans, as a couple, as parents, as grandparents, you know, as neighbors, it's made a big impact, you know, and we constantly, we're constantly evolving and we're constantly changing.

I mean, that's one thing guaranteed life as everything changes. So every day, you know, there's new things that come up and this medicine allows us to see it, you know, and hopefully we move through it in a good way. remember, you know, who we are in it all, you know. Not saying we have to be perfect because no one has to be perfect, which is good. I know, but it's helped you remember, you know, to keep working individual. So it definitely brings things up, which is great. Like, just the language you use and the way you describe stuff, it's in talking about being better neighbors. It seems to me that there's a real embracing of community. And I can't help shake the

idea that maybe you learn that by going and being in Gabon and doing the medicine there and sitting down and learning from actual people that have been in the tradition for their life. Can you speak to the idea of the relationship between learning from the actual people that have used this plant medicine for so long in community in that aspect of it? Well, I think one of the most beautiful things for me about learning from people with Vaughn from the masters of this tradition in medicine is that they allow you to discover for yourself. So they don't actually tell you much, especially when you go and do your first initiation.

They don't tell you much of anything. And they allow you to experience whatever it is you're going to experience without their input without their, you know, and what they ask you to do is to tell them what you see. That's your only responsibility is to tell them what the medicine is showing. And then they guide you gently along the way without ever telling you, you know, what to do other than like a couple of few very simple instructions. Because this medicine is about you knowing you, right? It's not about you knowing someone else's truth.

It's about you discovering what's true for you. And so it's really like all that dogma that we see in a lot of like, especially like with religions and stuff like that where somebody's like very, you know, directly telling you how to be and how to pray and how to, you know, talk to God. There's none of that. There's just like, you know, this is, this is you for you to experience first. And then if you ask questions, if you want to know more, then they will tell you. And they just tell you a little bit.

And then you get to experience that and see where that lands for you. And then they tell you a little more. So it's like, it's a tradition that envelops your learning in a slow process because they don't, there's this ideology that just knowing, for the sake of knowing isn't healthy. It's so true. You have to understand what you know. So that's personally my favorite sort of thing about the tradition and of itself

and learning from them and that they're so like patient with you. Especially because they speak French and we don't speak French despite the fact we're Canadian. Well, he speaks a little bit of French. And so it causes some really funny experiences when like you're trying to follow direction. And they're like trying to like move you around and sit you down or sand you up or whatever it is they need you to do. So it's definitely a wild experience. You say wild. Like there might be people listening to our podcast that have heard the word iboga or ibogaine, but they don't thoroughly.

understand like what it means. Like it's not it's not like a 30 minute procedure. It's not like a four hour procedure. Maybe you can explain to people what it is. Maybe take them through, you know, the depths, maybe not as deep as what happens in the journey, but like the process of it or as deep as you want to go. Like it's not something that you do in a day, right? No. No. So, you know, it starts when you make a decision that you're going to come to medicine. Okay. That's the preparation and that's actually where integration starts. You know, because you decided, okay, I'm going to do Iboga. I'm going to do Ibegene. And remember, Ibegene is one alkaloid of the hundreds or so alkaloids that are in Iboga itself.

So they decide they're going to do it. Stuff's going to start coming up for you. Stuff you thought was deep-seated and you've worked out 30 years ago, you know, some of them. us would be like 50 years ago you know it worked out no problem why am I why is that bothering me for you know it's coming up to be remembered because it obviously wasn't totally worked you know so stuff starts coming up and that's a that's a common theme across the board over the 12 enough years we've even working with this we see it all the time and so when person comes in medicine you know it's it's not a quick magic pill it's nothing easy about it but yes the easiest thing to do

you know it's it's easiest thing because all you have to do is surrender to the medicine but that can be the hardest thing you know because it's taking us out of the equation this ego this whole control right you know yeah the identity and so when we start medicine you know like we'll start you know say we start like nine o'clock at night when we sit around with a fire like a fire circle and we talk about things you know truths and whatnot we take some medicine, you know, and then starts, you know, in a couple hours, you know, the participants become, like, deep within the medicine, and so we lay them down on mattresses and, you know, it starts. But by six in the morning, that first day just kind of through, where they're having

a hard time walking and a lot of things are coming up, and it's just, it's a more intense part of it, right? And even though it's intense. So the difference between this and other things is that it's an neurogenic, right? It's like walking in a dream world, like to create. It's not like DMT where you buckle in, you're going for a ride. It's a lot different because you're fully aware. And one of the biggest things we notice from people

who are doing the medicine will say, hey, how are you doing? I don't know, do I have enough medicine? Like, I feel fully aware. I feel like normal. Yeah, well, that's perfect because it's not about, going out it's not DMT molecule. But yet they're talking to their grandpa and having a

situation. Right. So this is kind of going on. Oh, but I've been talking to the squirrel over there. Yeah. Right. So by morning, at six of the morning, we walk into the bedroom, so to speak, and it starts the next stage. We call that discovery phase. And that's where it's a lot of insights happen, even more so, you know, the medicine's still deep within our our system working, but you're able to to navigate walking a lot easier. And it's just different, it's a different phase now. So it's not as harsh, you might say, or as deep, right, it's thick.

But a lot of stuff happens in that day. And then the next day is integration day, everyone's kind of back to normal. So I'll say, you know, 48 hours to 72 hours, it kind of come through, right? Whereas Ibegain is a little bit smaller, knock off about 12 hours, you know, 24 to 48 hours. It just goes through a lot faster.

you know but it's really a lot more intense at the beginning because you know the ibegene has got a lot more ibegene with it which causes a lot of that stuff that's only ibegene i've got more that's why i keep her around she's always keeps me on the straight and narrow you know so that's kind of the just of how it works right and then you know you know we'll always usually have two ceremonies and in a retreat so to speak because the first one, everyone's going to go through some kind of a detox. You know,

be from substances or from medications you run or whatever, or the mind. Especially the mind. Especially the mind, right? Negative things we talk about or whatever. It's purging, purging, purging. And it's like Michelle always says, it's like the old Windows 98

where we defrague the computers, right? And all those antsy, squiggly and blotchy colors across. You know, your whole heart drive is running slow, is not responding properly, you're pushing, nothing's working, and then you defrag and it just clears up all this space, and also you've got all the space that's open. You know, if things are running smoothly, well, that's what it does for our mind. All those things are being defragmented are stories we've attached that have come. And some, you know, some come from generational ancestral, ancestral, you know, some are just because

you were in the room and something happened, you know, but it attaches. So it gets rid of the clutter. You know? So he was really good for that. Yeah. So, yeah. I was talking to a mutual friend, Jack Cross,

before I came on, was talking to you guys. Shout out to Lakshmi and Awake.net. So incredible things happening over there. And there's a pretty big event. I think you guys are going to be at it on the 17th in June coming up at the Canyon Theater. People should be on the lookout for that.

But Jack had mentioned to me, we just talked briefly about you, and he let it slip in passing that his idea, the way that he describes it is that you're seeing the sort of recalibration of the neuroplasticity in the neurocircuits while simultaneously getting to see the visions of what went wrong and how it went wrong and a chance to clear it up in real time. Does that sound like a pretty accurate assumption of what's happening? Or what would you add to that? Or what do you think? Yeah. So sometimes, you know, yeah, that's really accurate. So just like we have to purge physically, like we have to purge, you know, whatever emotional trauma.

We have to purge the mental trauma. And so, and there's like these traumas are attached to stories and emotions. Yeah. Right. And so the more we associate with that, the more of the story, the more we identify with that, the more we identify with that. story. It's like the more we reinforce that neural pathway, right? So sometimes what happens, and this is like a really common thing on Discovery Day is people get into like thought loops. And this is why we always say to people, tell us what's happening for you, because we can help

you move through it. So they get stuck in a thought loop about regret or about something that, you know, happened in the past or the way they've been acting or the way they've been acting or the way they I'm in treating others and or just the way they've been being and it just comes over and over and they're like I can't stop they just go swimming back and I like say to them all like how many times did you identify it with that how many times did you think that story how many times did you so I've always got to kind of like pull it up like railroad tracks you know like pull up these and some of them are really deep so it's kind of like keep pulling it up until it gets to the bottom, right? So just let them be. Don't resist it. Like, don't fight it because the more we

fight and resist, the longer it takes. So, and usually even just that realization, sort of like that aha moment happens and then it doesn't have to do it anymore. So, and now And Boba's gone and kind of pulled up all these old tracks, right? Now, and this is why integration is so important, is because now we're really, we're really neuroplastic. And we've kind of cleaned up the mental space. So now we have to decide what we want to do. Do we want to relay those tracks and re-identify with that identity?

Or do we want to create new ones? and if we're not careful, we can just fall back in old patterns. And it's really easy to do because we're super neuroplastic and we can do it when you say better than we did before. You know, so it's really, we talk about this a lot with people. And this is why, and when you had mentioned community earlier, the second year we went to Devon, that was something the medicine told us, you have to build community.

It was very clear. And so when we came home, we were just like, okay, well, how do we build communicate? We'll make an online community. And so we did that. And then it's slowly finding its way and shape and, you know, growing into whatever it's going to be. But it's that community that helps you stay accountable to you. And that's what we don't have anymore. When we live in these houses all by ourselves or just with our very poor family,

and we don't reach out and we don't have elders and we don't have people who are you know we don't have our grandparents around to help show us you know like a better way or at least

allow us the opportunity to see that there is a different way you know so yeah so Iboga just keeps showing you what it is that you're doing it shows you this is where you're at right now.

And I can pull all this up for you. And then now I'm going to leave you with a choice. You can continue to do that old behavior, or you can create a new one that feels more in alignment with your soul. And Iboga will never take your choice away, ever, because if it takes your choice away, it disempowers you. And this is the hardest thing with people with addiction. And when we talk to people with addiction, we say to them, I both and will not take your choice away.

They're like, what? What do we mean? You mean it's not just going to go in there and cure me and I'm never going to have an addiction again? We're like, but that wouldn't, that wouldn't empower you. What it's going to do is it's going to show you what your addiction is and why you don't want it anymore. And then you can make the better choice. I love it. It's really well said.

we have someone coming in here. For some reason, the name isn't showing up, but it says there have been a lot of talk about what Ibo Gain and Iboga treats. Can you share from your medical perspective on if and how it treats things like Parkinson's, PTSD, and addiction? Well, with Parkinson's,

there's a lot of stuff that happens around the dopamine receptors, you know? And just to put it, I guess, really easily, this medicine of Iboga really helps to replenish to restore, you know, the working capabilities of our dopamine in our system, you know? And so that definitely helps. That's where, that's why you're seeing such a big benefit

with microdosing with Parkinson's, you know, and even now they're seeing it with, multiple sclerosis. We're starting to really see that. And it makes sense because this medicine works on neurological pathways. And these neurons go through our whole body. So if they're being repaired and renewed and new ones pathways made, then we're going to get a lot better communication through our body.

So that will help with deataxia, the shaking, a lot of different things, and mental clarity and such. And there's lots of studies that have been done now on Parkinson's with, you know, this medicine. Yeah, and then for addiction, there's two things with addiction. So addiction, one, ibogine or iboga, it's going to go in and attach itself to those opioid receptors.

And it's a big molecule. So it's able to bump a lot of things off. and sort of like bump them off and then it actually heals that receptor. So what it will do and the thing that people have to really be aware of is it makes you what we call drug naive. So it repairs that receptor and brings you back to your original starting point. So whatever, you know, if you were a heroin addict and you came in, didn't I? Iboga-Ivigin treatment, you have to make sure that you know that if you chose to go out and use again, that and you use the same amount, you could overdose, right? Because you've become drug-navive.

And then while it's sitting there, it's healing that receptor. And then it's also showing you, well, this is why your addiction is there in the first place. So when we understand why we have an addiction, when we understand that core root and can ask for guidance and healing with it, then we're far more successful in staying, you know, sober. I don't like to work clean, but, you know, we're far more likely to be making those choices to better ourselves, better our lives, you know, look after ourselves rather than harm herself or punish yourself or get stuck in this loop of trying to self-medicate to fix a problem that we don't understand, right?

So Iboga heals the receptor and then also helps show us why so that we can heal that too. We can move forward from that. We can let go of that. And then PTSD? Oh, I mean, it's simply as a, It's repairing all these neurons. It's repairing how things are firing inside.

You know? So, you know, part of it, too, is it helps us remember the traumas and helps us to work through them. It's not about getting rid of the traumas and forgetting them. But it helps us to remove this emotional charge that's affecting us. You know, there's always, with every story, there's always some kind of feeling or physical. or somatic charge to it.

So it helps things make sense of it. You know, so we can remember without being activated in such a way. You know, there's been, you know, a lot of good studies based on that with veterans and blasts and concussions and different things like that, but also like just PTSD in general, you know, that unconscious thing that shakes us to the very core. sometimes. So when we're able to work through it, it just kind of separates

from that. So it's just now it's a memory. It's not something that's going to totally speak for us in that sense. And I think too, we have to realize that what I focus doing is showing us how we heal ourselves. I love that.

Yeah. So, you know, anything is possible, but sometimes what we think we need to do, what we think we need to heal, or what we think the problem, isn't what we need to do. It's such a beautiful point.

Yeah, and I'm always going to show us, well, this is what you need to do first. Yeah. And I'm sorry, that's what you wanted, but this is not where you're getting. You're going to do this first, and then we'll go from there. And that's an important note, too, because inasmuch that everyone wants to be healed. Everyone wants to have their pain going away. Everyone wants to have their disease processes, you know, you know, downsize and everything else they get. Sometimes it's our journey to go through that, to live through that.

And sometimes it's not for us, it's not for us. It's for others. We're actually helping others who see us, you know, and it's complicated, but at the same time, you know, I remember my mother, when we were born, she ended up with rheumatoid arthritis, debilitated. So my whole life until she passed, This is what she had. And so she never was able to heal it. She tried all kinds of things going on. Mind if we didn't have Iboga back then. But nonetheless, you know, really her journey was the others saw her how she moved through it.

And she didn't move through it with suffering and in a victimhood. She was strong, you know, vivacious and feisty. It taught us how to live in spite of it and through it and because of it. and embrace it, you know? So sometimes our journeys are that too. So inasmuch that is that Iboga, like I say, anything that's attached to a neuron in our body could be healed.

It really could be. It's not always what we need in this moment, you know, in this life and whatever. But we do get what we need to move through and be the best version of ourselves. and live with joy and gratitude. Because clearly when we go to Gabon and, you know, well, they don't got fancy Lamborghinis and cars and, you know,

their shirts they got there and they have something to make there, but a lot of times they're wearing stuff that's been brought over from the West, you know, and things like that, you know, or even less, animal skins, they're happy because they learn how to live in joy in the moment, being present. You know, and that's truly what makes us happy. Not worrying about the past, what's happened, not worrying about what's going to happen in the future. But right now, you know, like right now,

I'm on a screen talking to this guy named George, and it's awesome. And, you know, life is good. You know, I'm not thinking about the toast I burnt last an hour ago. I'm not thinking about the company that's coming down tomorrow. It's right now. And that's what we have to learn to live. Yeah.

It's amazing to think how many of our ailments are manifest themselves by traumas of, like you said, like the mind or the language we use. You know, and I, so I've been having a real problem with the term PTSD, and it makes me think, like, maybe the problem is in the diagnosis. Like, if you have post-traumatic stress disorder, wow, you have a disorder. What if you had post-traumatic growth opportunity? That sounds way better. Doesn't that change the whole modality of fixing things?

Like you have this opportunity. Oh, it's not a disorder. It's an opportunity. It's almost like I'm in a ritual. It's almost like I'm going to do this right of passage. I should be excited about this. We're such victims of the language. And then I peel back the onion more and you're like, wow,

we've built whole industries around this language. What came first, the disorder or the industry? I don't understand, you know? Well, and you create your identity. Oh, that's so true. I've given this thing to hold on to. Yeah. And we see I really know, you know, through like social media, you know, you see people.

And it's through like speaking about mental health, which is really great. Don't get me wrong. I want to speak about mental health, but I want to speak about it from empowerment and not, you know, taking people's power away. So when we see people who are like, you know, I have anxiety. or I have ADHD, which is really common, like ADHD. I have a neurodivergent brain, which is true, you probably do, which to me is not a bad thing. I think people neurodivergent brains can think outside the box.

I think they're great. They're creatives, right? So why not think of it that way instead of all the negatives that, you know, it may or may not be putting to your life, but now you've identified in our self-actualizing. So there's like this, there's this back and forth of like, what am I self-actualizing? What am I labeling and identifying with rather than saying, oh, look, I had this really interesting thing that came up for me in the way I think or the way I view the world or the way I am.

And what do I want to do with it? like what do I want to do with it because it's you get to create that's that's the power of being human is you get to create what you want and if we look at all the negative things then that's what we will keep creating but if we look at all the positive things and what that gives us and then gifts it gives us and that's what we will keep creating so I think it's just yeah it's that language around it like how are we talking about it are we talking about it are we talking about it from empowerment or disempowerment? Are we talking about it from the victim mindset of the life is happening to me or life is happening for me?

And these are the choices and it's in like we don't realize how many choices we make a day. It's thousands of choices we make a day. You know even like in your mind like what thoughts are you feeding? Every how many thoughts do we have a day? day which ones you paying attention to which ones do you give energy to because what are I mean thoughts are crazy thoughts you know things float through your mind you're like what was that you know you're standing there and enjoying this like you know beautiful view of maybe the ocean and there's and then you look down you're like

who what if I just fell off this question yeah if I jump right no what did that you have you know like that That's thought. There are weird, random things. But the power is what do you focus on? What do you listen to? What do you develop into who you are? And that's the choice that we get to make.

And to remember, too, that, you know, words are spells. Yeah. You know, the power of the language. Yeah. You know, like, you know, we had a talk when we were first together. I'm like, you know, I'm a real morning person. I like to get up early. She knows what I'm going.

She knows what's true. She's running. He's running. I mean, the last is what he's doing. You know, and I'm like, I love mornings. I get up early because it's quiet and it's up. And it's like, wow, it's many time. That's great.

You know, I can stay up and do whatever. And she's like, yeah, I'm not really a, you know, I like, I'm a night owl. You know, I like staying up late and everything else. I go, yeah, but, you know. you should get up early and we can work out. Well, I would. I mean, I can. She can get up for, you know, the hospital and stuff.

But she goes, yeah, but I don't really enjoy it. And yeah, I'm not really a morning person. I'm like, well, with an attitude like that, you won't be. I mean, that's what I said. Right. It wasn't really popular. You know, but she tried to envision herself as being able to throw. in the morning there's a 5 a.m. club, I think that was popular a while back, you know, this book,

you know, and so she started doing that and she realized that, well, they can. Now, she prefers sleeping in a little bit, you know, but she knows that she can be a morning person because words are spells. So why would we limit ourselves? And we do this unknowingly. Sometimes we do it on purpose, self-sabotaging, but even then, sometimes it's subconsciously unknowing or self-sabotaging. And that's what are they doing? And we can be creating everything. We're created in the creator's image means we're creators. You know, everything, everything that's in our environment can be created by us. And we can only control how we move through it. So I choose to move through it in a way that's not what some of these other landmines there. It's move them out of the way. You know, and you can create

things. So it's harmonious for me. That's what matters. If I'm good, then it can radiate to others. I can be of service to others. But it comes here first. I love it. Or just felt. They really are. They really are. We're casting them all day long and we're listening. We're choosing which ones to give power to and who to give power over. We got some more comments coming in from the from the crew in here. Thank you so much to everybody that's hanging out with us. Lauren, thank you so much for being here, I really appreciate it, and so does everybody else? She says, how does Iboga compare to other psychedelics? Well, Ivoa is different. So Iboga is not a true psychedelic. Like we said, it's a neurogenic, so which Latin means to dream and to create. So it's more like when you're in the

Iboga experience, it's more like a waking dream. It's sort of how things, appear. They can be super visual or it can be very auditory or you can feel like nothing is happening at all and your mind is totally blank and still which is really weird for people and people struggle with and they actually think they're doing something wrong when that happens like sometimes we'll check on someone and say you know what you doing they'll be like there's nothing there's nothing happening. I mean like that's I mean for me that's great I mean how often is your mind quiet like well never I'll like enjoy your space you know so um it can things can come to people in just a very insightful way where they just sort of are just getting all these realizations

yeah and I bogus direct you know it sometimes we can do guided journeys with people where we can help people sort of ask very specific questions like, you know, why do I have my addiction to whatever? And they will just get an answer. Well, that's because, you know, of the abuse of your mother when you were 12 years old. I mean, that's how it will work. So, and they're always simple. The answers are short and they're simple. We know when people's mind is interfering when the answer becomes complex and they have to describe it. And here's another thing too. So with Iboga, it's always going to be about you.

About you. So, you know, if you want to know, oh, how do I deal with my mother-in-law? You know, she's so out there or whatever. and like how do I how do I deal with her you know because it's affecting our relationship and everything else not ours now not ours great my mom a great mom but you know it's a real thing sometimes or whoever it is and you know a lot of medicines they'll show you this person and what they're like and and all this creativity part of it you know and that's really a lot to do with the DMT molecule that's in there Ibogas is going to show you you

and how you're dealing with her. Not about her, it's about you. See, that's the part with the heaviness with this medicine. It can get heavy because it's about you. What about my addiction? It's about you. What about it's about you and how are you moving through it? And what are you doing?

What have you done? And what aren't you doing? And what should you be doing? And what are you doing right? You know, it's always going to be about you. So that can be the heavy thing. Yeah. And so that is, you know, how it differs a lot, you know, because it's not a true hallucinogenic in that sense. But like I say, it can show us everything and above and whatnot because it's very intellectual.

And, you know, they'll refer to, you know, I as the mother or the grandmother say, so to speak, you know, one's got some kind of a feminine or masculine disposition. And they'll refer to Igbog as the grandfather or father. but really it's a duality. It's got a male and female spirit. It's a perfect balance. And some of the biggest lessons I've learned from Iboga were spanked to me by grandmother, the spirit of Iboga.

I tell you, you know, don't get those feminine spirits mad at you, man. Don't do it. Hopefully that answer. is Lauren's question because, you know, all, I believe all the medicines are here to help us, you know, and they all can work together, you know, with the right amount of space. You know, in Africa, with with the Biti, when they use this medicine, they use other medicines, too. There's a whole jungle of pharmacopoeia, and they use them at different times, but they give space around everything in its time so it can be used properly.

and respectfully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like for them, Iboga is just part of a whole, right? So they like when you do an initiation, they will give you another plant with the Ivoga to help you remember your initiation

because you are taking such a big dose and like so much medicine and they don't even forget your journey. So they give you a plant with it. That is also very bitter by the way and does not make the Iboga taste any better. No. Yeah, you eat that with it, and it helps you remember. You sure do.

So, you know, for them, they've been using this medicine for thousands of years. Who knows how long? Thousands, for sure. And so they used it, you know, if you think back way, way, way back then, there was no distractions in the sense of TVs and phones. I mean, if you weren't doing anything, you literally were just sitting there, looking at the jungle or contemplating how this galaxy works and wondering what all these plants do. And so they used Dyboga to help them discover what these plants did. Yeah, so that's how they know.

And like Patrick and I are like when you did our introduction, we have a title of Ganga. And what that means is that if you go and you do an initiation in Gabon, you will be called a gonga. So that means you're just, you know, you're learning. You're learning to be a healer. And then they have another one about that. And I just blanked on it what's called. Nima, yeah. But there's different levels of gonga.

Yeah, there's different levels. But to be a Nima, you have to know, like, a minimum, like, 2000 plants in that jungle. So to understand like the complexity and the knowledge of the tradition is, that's what that is. It's the knowing and understanding of that jungle and how they need to use it to survive and heal and do what they need to do spiritually, physically, mentally.

So it's, it kind of like, we went out, the first year we were there and we were collecting some herbs or you know pieces of bark and plants and whatever and as i was walking through like the jungle with these ladies i'm like thinking about like when the french came in to you know take over and like how you know like these labels of like you know them like being unintelligent and not advanced and i'm like how how would any how would you how would you have even ever thought that? Like you watch, they know everything in that jungle. Like, everything.

Like, we have to, like, we have to tell them, only show us these plants, like, because I'm not going to remember if you show me every plan we want by. Like, show me the ones that we need for, like, the spiritual showers, right? Like, show me just those 20, 30 plants, please. Because, like, they're like encyclopedias. of knowledge, they're like so intelligent and connected to that, to that, to the space they live.

And it's so beautiful to witness that. It's hard for me to describe, not like poetic in my speech, but it's so hard for me to describe that, just that awe in that understanding. If I go out in the forest, I know what an evergreen tree is. You know, I might recognize sage or I might recognize, you know, something pretty basic, but I don't have any intimate knowledge of the place I live, which is kind of sad, but, you know, that's the truth of it. Yeah. Yeah.

How can you know yourself if you don't know your environment? And when you start thinking about people that thoroughly know their environment, it's sounds to me like they thoroughly know who they are. It speaks volumes of the ailments we have in our society right here. I want to introduce both of you to an incredible individual right here. Friend of the show, a friend of mine, Robert Sean Davis, he says, post-traumatic growth opportunity, preach it, brother. Here's where he gets into some deep stuff.

Don't be ready. I have the greatest audience in the world. So after this show, you guys might get a five-page summary about the whole aspect of some awesome thoughts and places you've never been before. That's awesome. Yeah, the incredible audience. This guy particularly, Robert, he's going to be on the show soon. He says, I love the reinforcement that the medicine has natural properties that stimulate

organic healing, removing the need of external imprinting as part of recovery. Amazing testimony and appreciate your celebration of the power of self-healing. I'm curious, how often you see unexpected side effects of an awakening during a reset, especially given the gifts that can accompany what is almost a mini sanctification process that parallels a near-death experience. I got the greatest audience. Wow. Right?

Good question. I think it's hard to describe. So we had a, sorry. You go ahead. Okay. So we had a guest recently. And so a month ago. And we spoke to her just a few days.

And she's like, I'm like, my mind is still blown. I can't like my mind is still blown because it's like I boger just new things that I needed to know before I did ceremony. And it was telling me that before. It was like saying to her, she had this sense of it. She was saying, just wait, just wait. You know. And she's like, I didn't know. Like, it has to know these things.

Like, you know, it's almost, it's really hard to describe to somebody who's not experienced it. And that was one of the reasons why we created the community because it's hard to share what that's like. Because words fail you completely in its understanding. You know, and some of these shifts are like super incredible, super meaningful. it's super meaningful. It just distinguishable. You know, it's very palpable. And yet, you know, like this lady would also say, I didn't even know I needed to ask for that stuff.

And it just gave it to me. It's like, I wasn't even where it was in my field. And what an immense shift. And she noticed in her everyday life of how she's moving through with more grace and more poeticness and more joy. And then you have other people who come through, and it's not this big, profound shift. But what they get are these little pebbles that are thrown in the pond that create these little ripples.

And these are the ripple effect. I mean, those are mountainous. You know, you can create a tsunami from this one ripple, and it will deeply affect your life. and you might not notice it right now. But when you reflect in a year from now, or even five years from now, you're like, whoa, if you're listening, you'll see, you can hear it.

But a lot of times we're still learning how to navigate through this new way of being because it can be a real new way of being of our true selves, right? We've forgotten how to act in our own true body. So we don't always hear it. but it's there and we notice it kind of after the fact and so you know there's a lot of awakenings that happen slowly that some happen really you know quite a lot you know and it's you get

both which is which is beautiful because it's not just a cutter it's very individual for what you need and you know some people need to have that boom they need to have it to get through you know and some can handle that other part of it which is kind of slowly develops that this beautiful beautiful flower you know like a lotus so it's it's I love the way it does that you're going to say something yeah I was just going to read her quote which I thought was so funny when she she said this she said the medicine is just baffling and I love it so much it's like a friend that you get into an argument with and then two days later you're best friends again and you can't even remember why you were fighting it's so true yeah yeah so because you know

sometimes you don't want what it's showing you're like I don't want to be responsible for my life you know I don't want it to be me that was the problem I wanted to blame my mother my father and my social life or whatever it was and the medicine's like well let me just take you here and you're like, oh. And then, but then you have to admit that, okay, yeah, that's okay, that's true. And that whole being responsible, it reminds me of this thing. The study that was done many, many years ago. So I'm an identical twin.

And so the stories always sat with me and I remembered it. And they asked, one, there was two twins. One was living in Kingston, Ontario, one was on the coast in Western Canada. And they asked the one on Western Canada, said, So looking at you and you're successful and how do you contribute to who you are? And say, well, if you would have known my father, you wouldn't even have to ask. Oh, okay, okay. And they asked the other twin over in Kingston, Ontario.

So what do you contribute to where you are right now? And he looks around his jail cell. He goes, well, if you know my father, you wouldn't have to ask. Right? Right? So one's a victim and one's overcome. Now, I don't know what the back story was. It doesn't even matter.

It doesn't matter. But what matters is how we move through it. You know? Because there's a lot of people who are born as children of, say, alcoholics or people with lots of substance abuse and lots of anger, lots of anger, lots of things. And the nice part is those children don't have to grow up to be like that. Now, it's not always easy at all. I'm not going to take that away from anyone's journey,

because that's going to be really hard. But you still get to choose. I've heard people say, I'm never going to do that because my dad did that. I'm not doing that. Guess what they don't do it. And it was like, well, that's what my dad did. So that's what I'm doing. you know and it's like letting them off easy so it's it's being accountable to yourself

which can be the hardest thing but the most rewarding thing you know I do I hear a lot of and I think that everybody struggles with this I know I do too is like the relationship between like self-worth self-love and self-importance I think so many of these particular medicines and Maybe you could speak to the idea of how Iboga helps you deal with those ideas of self-worth, self-love, and self-importance. Well, I think, like, for me, sorry. One of the things I've always showed me was, I was, okay, so I was laying, I'd taken medicine, and laid down with the medicine. And I'm, you know, waiting for Iboga to show me something or talk to me. me in some way. And I'm trying to like keep my mind clear and be open and I think I'm doing

a really good job. And then in the music I hear think it, think it, think it, think it. And then it's like, there's like bail like opens, like, you know, the curtains part. And it's all the stories in the back of my mind that are just like watching the show, which really pissed me off. Because a lot of them were things I thought I dealt with. They were like things that I thought like I wasn't doing anymore. And I'm like, oh, yeah. So I think it just comes down to this, it just comes down to those stories and understanding what they are and understanding how they impact your life and how much time you waste,

much energy you give to them and how exhausting that is. Yeah. That to me is like one of the most, for me, that was like profound. And so, and then I have to catch myself now after that. You know, I would recognize like, so what I was in a very, very, toxic relationship before Patrick, the father of my kids. And for like 17 years. And so very controlling and verbally abusive, that sort of thing. So I in my mind would create stories as to why I did everything. You know, why am I having a shower right now? Because for a long time,

I'd have justified why I did things. So, but I was still doing it. like years later and not really realizing I was doing it. And so then I had to catch myself. Why am I making this? Like, why am I wasting time thinking about Patrick does not care why I'm having a shower? I could have three showers in one day. That's kind of odd, but whatever. You know what I mean?

Like that's not an issue. So why am I creating justifications and stories around it? And is that what I want? want to do with my time when I'm like is that how where I want my thoughts to go so in the beginning you have to catch it and it's that awareness yep and sometimes people think when that awareness now is present but now oh I'm more broken than I thought I was or oh I'm doing it wrong or I'm not healing I haven't healed because I haven't healed because I'm sealed I sealed because I'm a sealed this stuff now that I in my mind. We're like, no, that's the point. The point is that you see it,

so now you can make a choice. And now I say it comes back to choice again. So you make a choice. Oh, like, oh, that thought came up. Oh, yeah, okay, whatever. You know, and a good friend of ours, Katie, she says, you know, I give my brain a name. Like, whatever it is, Matilda the Hun. what I mean like so you stop identifying with it mm-hmm it's not who you are yeah you know and with that like and she's saying like you got you got to kind of practice those things it doesn't just you know you can have seeing more of it people sometimes not always but sometimes people think you do a big plant medicine you can have this aha moment be enlightened be woke You know, and the whole nine yards.

And in the essence, yes, we end up waking up. We end up remembering, remember. We end up being, seeing who our true selves are, were shown like she was shown. This is who you are. This is what you're doing. Even though you're like the unconscious traveler, now you're a conscious traveler. Now you can see it. And I had friends say to me one time, some people who were participating,

well, I just, you know, maybe I should just sit there and bask in it and really get to know all my dark side and all this stuff that's being shown to me. I said, well, yeah, it's being shown to you so you can see what it is, but the idea is to be able to move through it and it because of it and moving forward. You know, like, but what if I want to bask in it? I said, well, you know, it's kind of like this. And I'll make this the TV edit version. And, you know, it's kind of like you're walking through with Iboga. And all of a sudden you're like, what is that?

You look down and you're standing in a pile of a landmine, so in a pile of shit, right? And his landmine, so much for TV edit, right? But you're standing in this pile of it, and you're like, oh my goodness i said what are you doing he goes i don't know he said well you've two choices one you can bask in it and rub it a little get to know it intimately and taste it and make a sandwich of it really know it like really get to know it become it know it or you can choose the step out of it goes well okay makes sense it's about what happens if i step in it again

step out of it again. And he said, well, how often do I have to do this? I kid you or not. How often do I have to, when stuff comes up? Because it's supposed to be healed. Do I have to step out of it as often as you step into it until you learn to navigate around these landmines because life is never going to stop throwing landmines in your way?

But you can become a great navigator. too is like, you know, like sailing a boat. You can become a great navigator through life storms. Because it's never going to stop. And so it's either happening to you or for you. Again, you know. And when we take these medicines, it helps us really see. So we can all of a sudden, you go home two months later and people are like, oh, it's like depressed.

Things just aren't the way they were when I left, my left. the retreat. I was like on top of the world. Now everything seems awful. Like it's like it's happening even more to me now. It's even more of this. And I go because you're seeing it now. Seeing it. So every time you see it, step away from it, step around it, you know, move through it. Don't sit there. Don't be caught in that loop again. And that's our responsibility. You know, and we have that responsibility in life anyways. But if you're going to take a powerful psychedelic and plant medicine to heal yourself to become a better version of yourself, then be ready to move through these things as a responsibility with that. You don't get to just open

up this can and go, well, good, I'm just going to put it over here now. Life's going to go on. Once you know, you know, you know. And that's empowering. That's empowering. You know, and within that can become joy because every time you go around you see this thing, you're like, oh, thanks for reminding me that I'm not that person anymore. You know, I have things that come to me and like, you know, that I had, that I work through and I'm like, oh, yeah, nope, that's not me. I'm not a person anymore. And that's so much joy because I'm not trapped in that anymore, you know.

So that's empowering. That's gratitude. You know, it lets me live in joy. you know it's really amazing you know does that make sense yeah that's really really well said

you know I can smell what I'm stepping in we have a choice and you just keep stepping out of it you know become good at this yeah it's a gift to get to see it and be aware of it like you mentioned the word awareness and like that word alone

really opens your eyes. A lot of times we'll talk about altered states of awareness. And Michelle said it too. Once you know you can never go back, you're given the gift of seeing it and realize that it's a gift. It's painful. It's hard to carry, but it is a gift. And once you learn how to be aware of it,

then you can learn how to be aware of how to navigate through. I think it was a brilliant way you described it there. And I think it speaks volumes of why the two of you are a great team and good at what you're doing right there. Thank you for that. It was really well said. Well, you know, it's been said for years. Yeah. No, just power.

Yeah. Everyone knows that phrase. And that's what these medicines give us, is knowledge. So that's power. But not necessarily math and science and book reading, the knowledge of ourselves. The knowledge of ourselves. I think that's the key difference. And we can know things intellectually.

you know and a lot of people when they come when they come to us they're at a point where they're like i i know all this stuff like i know you know especially when we have somebody that comes to us say it's the therapist and that's and a lot of times that's why they do therapies because they're trying to heal something in themselves and they want to learn how can i do it for myself and how can to help others, right? So, and they're like, so I know all this stuff, but I still can't figure it out. And somehow when we take these medicines and for us, I mean, it's the moment we make that the most. So it's like, you know, when we take this medicine, it moves that knowledge from intellectual into deeper knowing, into understanding.

It helps us process in a deeper way what it is. And nobody, like, and that's the difference between Ivoga and talk therapy. You know, when people talk, I've been in therapy for 20 years. And I did more in that week with I yoga than I did and all that. Top therapy. Well, that's because your therapist can't go in your mind. and show you what's going on in there and fade the veil between the conscious and the subconscious

where the actual programming is in that subconscious mind. I mean, most of our decisions are made back there and we're totally unaware of them. And so Ivoga and other plant medicines that allow us to choose a plant because there's a lot of different varieties in medicine. But these other medicines that allow us to step behind that veil a little bit so we can understand more about who we are and what makes

us tick something to be said about the language of experience and I often think about when the instrument becomes an institution it loses its ability to work and it seems like in the western world we've done that we've institutionalized learning we've institutionalized the experience of other people which are just these stories, but you can, I don't care. I mean, I'm so grateful for the people that have, have gone and learned so much, but on some level, what is your experience? Like, what, show me, tell me you're suffering.

Let me see. I know I've read those same books, but they do not describe the experience in a way that you can thoroughly understand. You must have the experience before you begin teaching anybody, anything. And it seems like in the West, we've probably out of a road of great intentions. and an opportunity to give back, to be inclusive, like, let's let everybody do this. Like, okay, but where are the filters?

You know, weak filters create weak leaders, and weak leaders lead people off eclipse. Like, you have to have the experience of it. And only you, you will interpret that experience different. And like, that's where, on some level, I think you begin to understand what it means to, to understand the language of nature. Is that too harsh of a critique on education, do you think? No. No. Good.

Thank you. It's very true in a lot of ways, you know? Yeah. I mean, we need practical knowledge. We do. We do. Of course. We need both.

Yeah. But we're forgetting the deeper knowledge. We're forgetting, you know, inner knowing. We're forgetting wisdom. We're consuming knowledge and not sitting in wisdom. And wisdom. takes time. And we live in a society where everything is instant and we celebrate youth only. Then we forget that, you know, really the best parts of our life come later when we're not so consumed

with our identity and not so consumed with our social life, not so consumed with building whatever it is, we think we need or want. And then as we get older, we start shifting into really understanding what's important. And we can't do that all at once. We have to go through the process. And so we've forgotten, in Western culture anyway, to listen to our elders. We've forgotten, like, you know, we really forget how important they are. Right?

So there was, I read this thing a little while back and it was like, there's only like four mammals or something in the animal kingdom that go through metapause. Humans being one of them. And like that's how important wisdom is. That's how important it is for us to have elders, us to have people that are no longer focused on creating the future but teaching the future. because you need to be at that stage in your life to be able to teach. You need to have had lived life to teach about life. You can't do it when you're 20. You can understand things and have knowledge when you're 20 and 30,

but you really don't take away the beauty of aging, right? Don't take away the beauty of accumulating all these experiences. That's why we become human in the first place to have these experiences. Why else are we here? We don't get them instant. That's why there's time. That's why we live in this linear world where we feel the effects of time and we age and we do all these things that we think we don't want to do. But they're to teach us things.

And to show us how to experience, like to show us experience, to really understand what things are. and what's really really important like you know and with all i think it's so pronounced now with all the craziness in the world and maybe this has happened in generations before right where we've had big shifts but you know we can really see there's like left and right and you know whatever woke and unwoken like all these labels of like division yes and so what is that asking of us Why is that so pronounced right now? Like, what is that truly asking of us? Is that asking us to divide even more?

Is that asking us to, like, love one another? Like, why are these things coming up for us now? Yeah. We're a time in our culture and our civilization where we need to remember. You know, remember back. And we have, like, people who are in their wisdom years acting like in their 20s because for some reason we've dismissed that so much that they feel like they don't value unless they're pretending to be something they're not anymore

that's you know and I think these are the important questions and this is what we need to be looking at when we're thinking about elders and we're thinking about spiritual education Yeah. Who's teaching me? Who am I going? Am I going to somebody who is my same age? You know, or am I learning from somebody that has greater wisdom because life has happened? So, and I'm not dismissing youth because we need the youth because they have great ideas, right?

They think, you know, when we're young, we kick against the system and we, you know, we want to, you know, create better things, right? but we don't devalue then, you know, moving through the different seasons in our life. Because being young is fun. Yeah. And it's important, too. And it's important, but so is the wisdom. So I think this is what we have to be looking at. And there's a lot of bypassing right now because this is, plant medicines become trendy.

and these medicines are becoming, they have such potential and people are so desperate for them, that they're too quickly either going into the experiences without really understanding what they're asking or doing, or they're too quickly wanting to become a provider and serve these medicines when they've only had minimal experience and don't, I haven't really, figured out their own stuff yet. And not that we ever really figure it all out. That's not very much. But there is a certain

I think that we need to have patience for and it's okay. And I think when we're working with these medicines, it should take, you know, years, like a decade or two to become, you know, we should be students for a long, long time before we really, really start trying to guide anyone else.

I love that. It's so well said. It's so well said. And it's so sad to me to see on the topic of elders, like, and this fascination with youth being young, I want to live forever. I want to be young forever. Like, look at what we do in the West.

Like we've gotten so far away. Like we put our elders in like a care home somewhere because we don't want to see them because it's so hard. Oh, my, my, my mind. my mom can't get out of bed. Well, maybe you should take care of her in her bed. Maybe, you know, like, maybe she can teach you a lot of things by, like, the story you talked about your mom with arthritis.

What do you learn from an elder who has cancer and see the pain that they go through and losing their ability to walk? Like, what do you as an individual learned by, oh, my God, I need to take care of them? Maybe you need to quit your job. Maybe that's what you need to do. Maybe you need to figure out, like, oh, my God, this is teaching me what I have to look forward to. This is teaching me what I need to do in my life. Like, if we should stop turning away from our responsibilities to the elders and the youth and start doing things that matter. But, you know,

the demands of the Western society to have the nice car, buy the house, oh, you want to have kids, you better have this much money. Oh, you got to go to the right school. No, you don't have this degree. Like, you've gotten so far away from the things that really matter. And there's no wonder we have a manual called the DMS5. We're all going crazy over here. We're running away from the very things that would free us. We're running the east looking for a sunset. That's right. Yeah. And nobody has really ever accomplished things by turning away from what's happening. They embrace it. You know, they go with it. They use it. You get the inertia going with it. You know, it's that old thing, you know, life hands you a bunch of lemons, you know, from on the side,

let's go have some apple juice, you know. You make lemonade out of it, you know, when life hands you this, what are you going to do with it? It's here for a reason. And a lot of times that comes with age, with the maturity part of it. And like Michelle says, sure, there's a lot of youth who have really got it going on. A lot. And kudos. I mean, thank God for that. These are these young thinkers who are going to lead the way, you know. He's going to be our leaders.

And we can learn from them too. And it's like, I'm never too old to learn. ever you know i don't want to stop learning you know what then i just get old what good is being an elder you feel like grandpa simpson just sitting there you know doing nothing on the couch i mean i'm like nah you know so there's lots to learn and it's there for us putting our way every day for us to use and because of it and for it and everything You know, life is great. Yeah.

You let it. I got a great question coming in here from my friend Clint. Clint Kyle is the Psychedelic Christian podcast. I want to check it out. The guy has great work. And he's, I love talking to him. He's an amazing guy.

Check out his podcast for those that are listening. He says, how do we ensure that the Western thirst for healing does not become another form of spiritual colonization? We're at the best audience in the world? That's a good question, right? You know? I think it's keeping it simple.

And I think I boba, that is one of, again, a lesson Iboga teaches us is it doesn't have to be some, it doesn't have to be hard to be worthy. It doesn't have to, we overcomplicate things. Just keep it simple, you know, and really, what is it you really need? You know, one thing when I first came into working with the traditional component of Iboga, I thought, okay, what is this true? tradition, the Bui T, it's in Africa, like, hmm, I have no idea. Like, I'm going to keep my feelers out. I'm going to be paid attention because I have my core beliefs that I was brought up with and, you know, my faith and everything else.

I'm like, what is all this about? And you know what I saw? I saw this tradition, not religion, just tradition of the Buiti that serves the Boga. Buiti is just simply the study of life, your life. It talks about truths. And one thing I, and I kept watching things and seeing things, I'm like, that's true, that's true, that's true. That's true. That's true.

And you know something? What is true for me is true for somebody in, like, if it's true. And so in, let's talk about in this day and age and technology, that's a cell phone. And you get somebody in Africa, that's a cell phone. get someone in the Buddhist community, that's a cell phone. You get the point, truth is truth. And that's what I saw. And if we keep it to that, and it's not about dogma.

You know, when they have ceremonies in Africa in Gabon, you have a temple, right? And it's got a post in the middle, and it's just like this with a post in the middle. You go in one side and come out the other side of the front. Doors are never closed. There's never no doors. There's no doors.

And you can come as you want. You can leave when you want and come back and go, come back and go, come back and go. And no one's ever going to tell you how long you have to stay there. No one's ever going to tell you how you have to act. You just have to be reverent. Be reverent. You know, be truthful, be true to yourself. There's no dogma attached.

You know, we see that over here. And you're really unpopular with all the people in your podcast, I'm. but we bastardize all these dogmas over here. We have. You have to do this. You have to do this. You have to do this. Or this is going to happen.

That's going to happen. And, you know, we get back to the truth stuff of things. That's what's really important. You know? And we just have to remember go back to being what is true. What is truthful? Authentic. Authentic.

Authentic version of yourself. Because, you know, we're all spiritual beings. having a physical experience. And on that spiritual level, there's a balance point where everyone is on the same frequency. It's everything else that's put to stories around that change things that dampen or strengthen the signals are coming from there or whatever, you know, these stories.

Yeah, and I think that's a profound question because that's, that's, you know, Patrick and I are quite protective. you know, the medicine, when we can be like, you know, careful of who we recommend to other people and that kind of thing. So, and safety. We're super, you know,

stringent on what we need to do for safety. So I think when you're looking at providers or when you're looking at retreats or places to go for these spiritual things, one of the things that is a good way to know is are they are they empowering you are the people you're going to focus on empowering you or empowering themselves and I think that's that's the line you know so if we look at even how Iboga is it's never taking your choice away right so it's empowering you and it's

never going to tell you what to do. So people will ask, I go, should I, should I, you know, move to a different city? And I will know, well, you do you. Whatever. So you have to sort, you know, you sometimes get creative with these questions and say, like, do I want to move? You know, so if you're going to somebody that's telling you what your journey meant, or is telling you, oh, the medicine told me to tell you this. why is the medicine talking through that person to you? No, no, no.

The medicine is going to talk to you through you, not through someone else. And they can maybe guide you, you know, the point of having, going to a provider or being like for what Patrick and I do. The point of us is to help you through the process of your own healing, of your own journey. and not to try to shift you from where you're at, not to tell you a better way, but to allow you to have the experience and to come to the conclusion of what that experience means to you for you.

You know, I don't need to be, you know, telling people what their journey meant for them. I don't know. That's for you to decide. That's right. So I think it's taking that step back and it's like taking that ego out. I'm not here as your healer. I'm not here as someone telling you what to do.

I'm here to support you and maybe give you an arm while you walk your journey, but I'm not here to tell you what that journey is. Yeah, I mean, I'll give you this little hoe, this little apparatus and mechanical tool, and I'll hold the ladder for you, but you're getting up there, pinion gutters. You know, I'm going to help you so it won't fall. I might recommend a few things how to use that thing the right way, but you're going to do the work. So I think, yeah, I think it is something we're going to have to be very mindful of as, as, you know, mainstream kind of gets a hold of it. and people you know that's why it's so important to have the traditions come out and and be really understood and and be talked about in these kind of manners so people can understand you know

and we're not experts and weighty by any means we're students you know but you know we do speak of what we know and how to honor this medicine and how to honor this tradition, how to honor ourselves, how to honor each other. You know, they have a greedy truth and it's, it says, if you abuse nature, the price is misery, but you are nature. That's a heavy one because we don't think of it sometimes, you know, especially those of us who are caught up in all this, go, go, go, go, achieve, achieve, achieve. That's, you know, that's how a lot of us were, we've gone through our cultures growing up, you know, and we forget, we're out of touch. Now, if we talked and listened to some of our ancestors and we listened to some of our elders, if we're actually listening,

we'll remember, and you can hear them like, no, no, no, hang on, remember of this stuff. Stop, smell the roses. That's an old term, right? You know, take your socks off and shoes off and put your toes in the sand, things that our parents would have told us. You know, these are important things as we're moving through life to enjoy it.

Mm-hmm. And not to abuse it. Just think if we didn't abuse it, you know, we enjoyed nature. We'd enjoy ourselves a lot more, you know. There's such a behesomeness for us and our nature. and a whole environment around us, you know, it really is. Yeah.

You can learn so much. I think it's the best teacher. You can learn more from a battered coastline or a waterfall than you can from eight years of instruction. And if you're really willing to sit down and just, you know, being in Hawaii for so long, I remember I'd go to the bay and we would go snorkeling and then I'd just come back, my daughter and my wife would be swimming. I would just sit there and be like, look at all this erosion.

man like this used to be part like this little piece of sand used to be part of that mountain right there am i part of the sand like what what part am i the mountain am i the sand like what is going the erosion's happening inside me right now like you just start having all these revelations of like oh the world talking to me right now like and it's it's so magical to get to reconnect with the spirit and the language of nature that's all around you desperately trying to get your attention through the song of a bird or a tree or sometimes the speck, the speck of dust floating through some light, you know, like you see these profound visions all the time if you're just willing to pay attention. And they're like, hey, look, I got to show you something.

Check this out. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the stillness, right? Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And that's some of the beauty of doing these medicines. It helps us to turn it. You know, that's where it can start. You know. Yeah.

It helps us. be still. It helps us slow down. Yeah, to reconnect. It's so well said, the idea of, and I, the word remembering, thank you for bringing that up. Like, it's been coming so, I see it everywhere. And maybe that's just a sign of the times for what we need to be doing. But just think about that word, remembering. Like, we're putting ourselves back together. And it speaks volumes of the shift we've been talking about and the reconnection of the youth to the, to the elders and the people in midlife as the bridge between them. And I really, really, I'm seeing so many positive shifts in the remembering of society.

And maybe that's why it seems so difficult right now because we are trying to remember. There's a large part of people that are moving on to the next phase of whatever comes next. And there's anxiety and there's, you know, there's this youth coming up. Like, where's my mentor? Where's my teacher? How come this teacher didn't teach me? Like we're really trying to remember what's happening and how to move through these times of change. And it speaks to the rights of passage, like the things that you help people through.

and we've been spiritually devoid of these rites of passage and ceremonies. And it's so beautiful and elegant when you see it coming together. And it gives me so much faith in what's happening in the future. And whether you're speaking out or you're building something, it's such a critical time that we're in right now. How did the two of you feel about that this time we're in right now? Well, I think for people in the West, I think we're realizing that, for me anyway,

I'm realizing that we've been too comfortable. Yeah. You know, and sitting in, sometimes I'd just be like have a moment and I'd just be sitting there in Gabon at the village that we go to. And I'm looking around and there's a well now for the village. But when we first went there, there was no well. And so they had to go to a river to get water to get water. and bring it back. And, you know, there's no, there's like, you have like one light in a room.

Like, you know, there's no washer machine and there's no dishwasher and, you know, all these things. And you're like, our tolerance for discomfort is so low that everything is uncomfortable. because things are so simple and we don't realize. And not that they're bad, we don't have to get rid of them. I'm certainly not saying get rid of all the washing machines and laundry. You know, like, no, no, I don't want to go back to washing my clothes at the river. But make yourself uncomfortable. Like, put your, like, learning.

When we learn things, there's a period of discomfort between not knowing, and knowing. There's like that transition period. And that's what's powerful about medicines, too, these spiritual medicines that they make us uncomfortable for a reason. There's this period of discomfort that needs to happen for us to understand and to build tolerance to life. So that's why exercise, Like that's why that's why we people do extreme things, right? Because they're looking for the discomfort to build their tolerance to life. Like, right? When we're working out in the gym and we're lifting weights,

there's periods of discomfort so that we can build muscle. We have to tear that muscle down to then repair it and build it better and bigger. Right? So it's built into the system and all things. So when we're, and I think that's why mental health too is, is another thing, another layer on that mental health thing. And why you don't see it in places where there's like extreme poverty, where there's discomfort all around people. So they have a massive tolerance to being uncomfortable and they find happiness in it. Right?

but when you're so comfortable, then, you know, the guy slamming his brakes on in front of you unexpectedly angers you to the point of, you know, road rage. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, why is that happening? Because we have no tolerance for discomfort. But really, we shouldn't care. I mean, you go to like, you watch them driving the ball. I don't think it's as bad as India. But you're like, or, you know, Costa Rica, we lived there for a little while, and it's like, whoa. That's some interesting road rules or lack thereof, you know, where if that happened here, people would go insane. Lose our minds, yeah. Yeah, they'd be like out of cars, like getting each other and there, they're just like, piramita.

Resilience is born from resistance. You know, resilience is born out of resistance. What else is born out of resistance? Some of the most beautiful diamonds in the world are born from the resistance and that pressure. So when life starts getting too much and all this pressure is happening to me, just try to remember, well, something really good is about to happen. There's going to be a real shift. Something good is going to come out of this because that's where the most burning diamonds coming from.

is that resistance. Their resilience is born out of resistance. So I think that's kind of like what's happening right now. Like it's a forced discomfort. It's a forced discomfort for us to grow. I mean, it's a shaky, it's an uncertain time. There's a lot of crap going on.

People don't know where they should travel or not, what they should do. But we're just kind of on the cusp. Something is going to happen. I mean, it has to. And it's going to be good, bad, or indifferent. But the one thing we know for sure, Sure, to be totally true, you know, when we've taken medicine and we've seen, there's no wrong choice.

What's he saying? I mean there's no wrong choice. We just have an election here. We mean there's no wrong choice. As long as you choose. So let's say I choose door A instead of door B. And I choose door A and it's something like rotten pizza. I don't know. Whatever. And I could have picked the cake behind Door B. Well, it's not necessarily a wrong choice. It's obviously something I'm learning. I need to learn. So what have I learned from choosing this door or this opportunity? You can choose something.

You know, you can choose that, okay, this is like here. Oh, yeah. I know what I really like to be. I know how I'd really like to have this. and you can start giving gratitude and being thankful for this remembering of what it is, is what I desire. It's like, oh, man, I'm going to that again. You know, like, oh, poor me, no, it's all, there's no wrong choices.

You have to make a choice. And I see that in today's society right now. There's a lot of things happening. And we have a choice. I mean, when we went through COVID, I mean, I remember. the first time we came down off our, off our hill, you know, into town. It was like a ghost town. It was like some creepy movie from Silent Hill.

Oh, my God, right? It was like really unnerving. Because nurses still had to go to work. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, this is an opportunity for people to stop, slow down, and reevaluate things. now some did and some didn't and that's just the way it is that's human nature but it was a time where we could we had the choice you know we can't go out we can't do this can't do that what

we do oh we have to sit by ourselves with ourselves and that's uncomfortable for a lot of people and we heard that you know by no fault of their own we heard that complaining because it's it's difficult you know but that's where growth can happen And I'll tell you, there's a lot of people who came out of that with a lot more love and understanding and, you know, forgiveness to a lot of people that differ from them. And that was important. So that's where we are now with all these different shifts that are happening. And we can sit there, we can complain about he's doing this and he's doing that and oh my gosh. Okay, so, yeah, but what am I doing?

Yeah. What am I doing? Yeah. You know, he's doing that, but I'm choosing right now to live my best life. You know, I was, I was to share a quick story. I was like 13 years old around there. And I knew it was around 13 because I had a chip in my shoulder. I was like, great here.

And it was pretty big, you know, most 13-year-old boys have his chip on the shoulder. And I was doing something. I don't know. You were working with my dad and doing something. And I'm over. I think fixing my hair, you know, whatever. I don't know. And my dad, he said something,

they get back to work. And I gave him some attitude, you know, because there was that chip. And he said, listen, young man, the world does not revolve around you. Now, in that moment, I knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. And, you know, that changed how I responded in life

and, you know, wasn't being self-absorbed and blah, blah, blah, and to people's feelings in the account. and then did plant medicine as an adult. I'm like, hang on, Dad. My world does revolve around me. Everything I choose to be in this world of mine revolves around me. I can't control what's going on, but I can control how I'm going to move through it.

So it's either going to be in my circle influence or it will not be in my circle of influence. And so I learned to think a little differently. So I see things going around now. So what am I going to do in the meantime with all that's happening? How do I act? How do I treat my neighbor? How do I treat someone else who voted for some different party?

Oh my God. How do I do that? How can you ever talk to them again? They vote a whole different party than I voted for it. Oh my God. You can't even be friends anymore. You know, I know you're my twin brother, but how can we even do this, you know? You know?

How do I move through it? So it gives us that moment we can reflect back. Okay. So in this moment, I choose to live like this, you know. And that's going to make a difference. If you all do that, it would make a big difference. Does that answer your questions to? Yeah, that's beautiful.

It's like the story of, one of the favorite things I love about storytelling and getting to hear the experience and stories that were told to other people is the mind shift of the culture or the, mindset of the culture that we grew up in. And you can see it in the different generations. Like, hey, the world doesn't revolve around you. Like, there's so much beautiful morality in that. But at the same point in time, it doesn't really fit for the world we're moving into. And I'm not judging it or anything like that. But it's just like, wow, no one. Okay, that that sheds a light onto how a generation was brought up. And of course, the rules are going to be in that direction. Like,

you know, if you can just sit with it and not hold it as true or untrue, you could be like, Oh, that's a real insight into how a large portion of the world thinks. And if they think that, then maybe I could adjust this way or maybe I could shift it this way. But that's the power of storytelling. And recounting these stories that happened to us at a young age, allow insight into so many people and so many different things. And that's a big part of the ceremony. And it's listening to the stories of the people that came before you. Now we're back to the elders.

And we're back to the real learning done in front of the fire where people are listening. and maybe the kids are over here at this table, but they have one ear up because they want to hear what the adults have to say, you know, and I should know about this part right here. And the kids, you know, they want to hear that part more than anything.

But it's the real community learning aspect that I'm really eager to be part of and do on some level. But yeah, that answers my question perfectly. And that being said, I got some more questions coming in. Robert chiming in over here. Robert, thanks again so much for always being here,

man. I truly appreciate your friendship and coming in with such brilliant. questions. He says, in my experience, related to abuse, healing medicines allow for a perception where the harshest adversities we experience are part of a process that creates higher gifts. Outside of time, we then understand tremendous gratitude and appreciation, seeing an eternal perspective. Then when you see abusers as loving volunteers participating on a lineage basis, it facilitates the space for true forgiveness and recovery. That's pretty deep right there.

I think it's like, right? Totally. Totally. It is. And there's beauty in that. Yeah. There's so much beauty in. Exactly what he said.

It's just so much beauty in it. Forgiveness is hard. Forgiveness is hard, but forgiveness is about you. Yeah, what is forgiveness, right? What is, yeah, what? The other person, and forgiveness comes up a lot in ceremony. And so one of the things I Bogus really good at showing people is generations. So it might show, so say if you had like an abusive mother, you know, we had this one guess that had a pretty abusive mother.

But then Iboga showed them how their grandmother treated their mother. And what they realize is that their mother was actually had improved that lineage, like was doing better, you know, and and could only, you know, go so far, right? Like, had a very traumatic and abusive childhood and was trying to do better for her children, although it wasn't, it was still, like, not great. but for her with the tool she had, she was doing the best she could. Right. So and it's sometimes just that understanding that our parents are people, you know, at different stages of healing and at different places in a journey. And then you go even deeper than that.

Well, why did I choose that parent? Right. why did I choose to have a parent that was abusive or an addiction or, you know, not around? You know, like, why did my soul choose that as me to go through? And then you can get into even deeper, like, well, what was the karmic? Where was I, karmically, that I needed to learn that lesson, you know? So I think it's not becoming identified, right, with the trauma and learning to, and I think that that's what Ivoga does so beautifully.

It, the lessons are attachments. So there's like another, like, witty truth. And there's three things that are damaging, which is assumptions, attachments, and belief systems. And so I bogot loves to teach us about those three things. What are my belief systems that are negatively impacting my life? What are the attachments I have to stories, to people, to things that are negatively impacting my life? And what are the assumptions I'm making about other things that I have no control over,

like other people's thoughts? Like, I'm assuming I know what someone's, one's thinking, feeling, or doing, I actually have no idea. And that's dangerous because it only wreaks negative, probably, most likely, it has a negative impact on me. Because usually we go to like, oh, what are they saying? They're talking about me. Maybe they don't like me. You know, they're probably, you know, judging me and blah, blah, blah, when really they're thinking about themselves. It's not a single thought of you. Right. Right. They're thinking about, oh, my God, Do I do my hair okay?

And my shirt look weird. You know, like we're very self-absorbed. And we think that other people are self-absorbed about us. They're self-absorbed about themselves. So I think, like, when we break it down, those sweet things. That's where, that's like, it's just about these lessons and what we need to grow through. you know and then back with the forgiving part of it right it's forward given and we're forgiving ourselves you know and that comes up a lot too in these plant

medicine circles you know when people are thinking about these past traumas and some are horrific and different types and they're like how do i forgive someone if you're doing that to me like i didn't ask for that no no you didn't That's horrific. It was horrific. But when did that happen? What happened when I was three? Yeah, that's horrific. But that's the past.

And you need to forgive yourself. Well, why? I didn't do anything. But you've been holding it. You've been holding on to that moment, your whole life. And you're either angry or you've got grief around it or shame around it. all these things are samaditizing into illnesses and who knows what else, but it's there. It's palpable. We know people like this, and it's hard to watch them look at themselves like that.

And the moment you forgive yourself from hanging on to it, not excusing so-and-so, but from hanging onto that, it just sheds and becomes lighter. You know, you don't forget what happened. you know don't forget at least we repeat it you know so you don't forget but there's that letting go it doesn't emotionally charge you anymore it doesn't samatitize it's not thick in your skin you know and that is freedom you know that in is where forgiveness is amazing because you know if I say I forgive you for whatever it doesn't mean I'm going to say what you did is right,

but it frees me from being in that situation and holding it. Because, you know, 20 years from now, you're not going to remember that you did this in on this podcast. But I'm going to remember it. You know, I remember back when I was 60 and that George guy, you know,

kept looking off to the right-hand side. Not looking at us. I'm like, I don't know if something was wrong. I'm not sure. He was adjusting the color. I don't know. I just, I never got over it. I don't know it sounds silly, but why are we hanging on?

It is kind of silly. Because we're hurting ourselves. We're hurting ourselves. And that's how, I mean, it sounded silly, but really, we're just hurting ourselves. So, so stop. You know, and it's just as simple as that. I just, okay, I don't have to. I don't have to hang on to it anymore.

I don't have to have that affect me. You know, I can choose or not choose to associate. with this person anymore. It doesn't, that's not even the part of it. Just I'm not going to do that, you know? What, you know, why should I cry over something when that person's not crying over it anymore, you know, just holding my own party here. You know, a pity party, right?

Yeah. And we do. I mean, we've all been there in some degree we have. But realizing it's really good, so that forgiving. And that's the beautiful part. That's where the healing comes. And you know, you can actually be the ancestor that heals your whole lineage. You know, you can stop that from continuing generational after you.

And that's beautiful. That's where it becomes, wow. I'm this because I'm in spite of and because of all that. I'm this. I mean, the stuff that makes up me as a man. There's a lot of stuff. I've done a lot of stuff in my life. I've lived a lot of different lives in my life.

My tattoos, I have all these different meanings and stuff from different stages of my life. Good, bad and indifferent. And they're important because they make me who I am. You know, and there's different levels of forgiveness and things that have happened. But that's the beautiful part of it. Yeah.

And I think the other part of that equation, too, is like, okay, so a lot of, of times our traumas are part of our identity right i am michel and i you know had an abusive partner or i am michel and i you know had abusive parents right part of my identity so if we're going to challenge that what do we want instead because we hold on to these things because it's we know them right and then so and we would rather hold on to the things we know then explore the unknown and possible better, right? Even though what we know is harming us.

So we ask this so people when they come in, okay, well, okay, great, you want to let go of all these things. I want to let go of myself doubt. I want to let go of my, you know, attachment to, you know, this addiction. I want to let go of all these things, okay? And people can list them really easy. they can just go burr when you say okay what do you want to get rid of yep uh-huh i have my list yeah it's 10

things long i have 40 questions for the medicine of all the things i need to know about why i'm broken and then you go okay well what do you want to replace that with and they're like oh i just want to live in joy yeah but what is joy when does that life mean to you what do you want to bring in because we can't just create a vortex and you can't just take things out and not put something in its place. Like you have to bring something you want in. And that's hard for people. People often, especially when we're at the beginning of the journey and we're really just

like really looking at where our addictions are, where our flaws are, right? Where we're broken. Broken. Okay. And then we're like, okay, well, if you don't know where you want to go, how are you going to get there? If you don't know what you want to become, if you don't know who you are, then who you want to be. And if you don't know the answer to that question, that's fine, then let's ask that question. Who am I?

Who do I want to be? Like, what do I want to become? What do I want to project out into the world? what do I want to create? Because if I'm not creating something intentionally, then life is going to create it for me. So it's bringing intention into your experience, not just, you know, saying,

okay, medicine, rid me of all my sins. But, you know, also now I want to be intentional with my life. and move forward with understanding and knowing. And so that's part of that process of becoming aware, becoming conscious, is becoming intentional. It's not just floating through life totally oblivious, right? And we know there's lots of people like that. They just kind of, you know, blow through life.

just do the thing never question never you know unconscious traveler never never questioned and then

and they end up sometimes at the end of their life and they're like whoa wait a minute I missed out on some things right so it's beautiful I think

now the main street part that's beautiful is that we're asking that question, you know, who am I? What am I doing? Why do I do the things I do? How do I become whole again or remember who I am again?

How do I come back to my purpose? You know, what is it I wanted to do while I was here? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So I don't have to come back and do again. And sometimes we have to have little notes, So we remember what we did. You know, I'm not preaching to the choir. Let it go.

Let it go. I came up in a journey for me, I'm telling you. Before the movie Frozen came out, okay? Yeah, so it's remembering. It is remembering. That was a good question Robert had. Yeah, he's got it. He's a brilliant, he's a brilliant,

individual. He's a, thank you. Lighter, Lighter coming into us from YouTube. I'm always here. Lighter, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. Forgiveness is releasing both parties energetically, not some grand gesture. Sounds like he's been through some, uh, some of the fires of forgiveness there. Those who know, no, no. Yes. Yeah. It's true. It is true. Michelle and Patrick, this has been an amazing conversation. I'm grateful to get to to sit down here with you and just talk story a little bit and figure some things out. We blew through like two hours. Like it was nothing.

It's so crazy to think about. And for me, it's such a mark of a great conversation when it goes by so fast. But as we're kind of landing the plane, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? And what are you excited about? So I'll let Patrick flip. He's the social media guy. So let him.

Okay. Go blame it on me now. I'd have to read it. I don't have to go, okay, our IG is. So you can find us on Instagram and we're Soul Reflections Evoga. You know, our Facebook page is the same Soul Reflections, Iboga.

You can reach us on our email info at soulreflections.net. And our website is soulreflections.net. You know, that's, you know, it's not about advertising. this about starting the conversations because people want to talk about things and they're always looking where they can talk and where they who can they who can they who understands so we're trying to really open that up with that um things that we're excited about man besides life yeah we've got a

amazing some amazing retreats coming up in end of september beginning of of october down in mexico we're looking to go up in the mountains of teppetslan and uh do some retreats in there, which is going to be phenomenal. We have an amazing team who we're all witty initiates and just lovely, lovely people to work with as well. So that's new. So we like doing these retreats in community. Like we do private ones, small ones in our home,

but when we can work in community, it's so much better. I love it so much. And then we have a fire time. So within our community, so we have a preparation community and an integration community. and every month for integration, we do a monthly fire talk. And so on June 8th, what we'll do is we'll make the link available. So it's not just for the people in the community.

It's for anybody that's experienced Iboca if they want to chat. So we'll put that on our, we'll make sure we put that in our Instagram and Facebook, those links so people can connect. If they want to, if they want to just talk, and those talks are amazing. because, you know, people are coming together and sharing what the medicine is taught them and continuing to teach them. And sometimes when people come that did the medicine

like five, seven years ago. Like so, and it's still an impact in their life. Like it's still teaching them lessons. Like the Ivoga, we always say, Iboga never leaves you. You know, it stays with you forever if you want it to, you know. So it's a beautiful spirit and it's,

has so much to teach us. 2.45? I'm going to start at 1 o'clock. Oh, shoot. Michelle, Patrick, I hope you have a beautiful day. I will sign off. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you.

Thank you. Hang on briefly afterwards, Michelle and Patrick. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen, al-a.