TrueLife - Jason Burdge - Psilocybin Assisted Therapy

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://www.pata-us.org/Jason is currently providing pro-bono strategic planning, board governance, and nonprofit creation consulting work for current and new nonprofits in the psychedelic area. Contact me for more info.With 17+ years of nonprofit management experience, I am a proven Executive Director skilled in growing and improving national organizations.Jason currently operates his own consulting company serving a broad range of nonprofits.Together with clients' leadership teams, they build highly effective nonprofit fundraising and board governance strategies. I have assisted more than a dozen developing organizations in creating sustainable fundraising programs - all of which have resulted in double-digit growth.Prior to this experience, he served as Executive Director with Forward Stride, Managing Director with A Home Within, Founder /Executive Director with Gift Horse, and Senior Development Representative with San Francisco AIDS / Lifecycle Foundation.Specialties: Nonprofit leadership, board governance, fundraising, strategic planning, large budget administration, public awareness, program management, program improvement, contract negotiations, campaign development, marketing, volunteer recruitment, communications. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearers through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, it's such a beautiful day. It's such a beautiful time to be alive. And I've brought to the show a beautiful guest who's going to give you some beautiful insight, at least in my opinion, and I think to those listening, you're going to be really thankful. So we have today, Jason Birch.

He's the founder of the psilocybin Assisted Therapy Association, also a nonprofit consultant who's targeting psychedelic mental health. He has a long history in the world of nonprofits. He used to be the executive director and founder of Stride, managing director of a home within, founder, executive director with Gift Horse. And we can talk about all those, but I just want people to understand that his roots are deep in the nonprofit world because I think it's relevant to what we're going to talk about what he has going on today with the psilocybin assisted therapy association. Jason, first off, thank you for being here today. How are you? I'm doing great. And thank you for having me, George. This is awesome. I've been looking forward to this since our first interaction of just being like, oh, where's this going to go? And so many things to talk about. And so now here we are.

Let's talk about it all. Yeah. I agree. I agree. You know, before we got started, you and I were talking about different maps. And I think it's relevant to think about, you know, when you look at the old maps of history, there used to be like this giant cracking that would take down a ship or like a giant whale or something. And it was this area that from what I have read, it was a place where either the unknown or where you shouldn't go or where there's something danger.

And I think it's relevant because in today's world, this idea of mental health is kind of like that shit that the Kraken was taken down. Only now we're sailing over there. What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I think that analogy of just, you know, this is like it is uncharted territory. But we have these ships that are already built. But then it's like, oh, well, can we do this? You know, and there's like, yes, we can.

Well, how do we do that? How do we know where we're going? you know, where are we going to set the sales, you know, towards? And even in that concept of, you know, of maps of, you know, it's like scale, what level, you know, like dividing of countries, dividing of states, dividing, you know, counties and cities. But then it's like, but we're on the planet. And, you know, we initially when I started a suicide, suicide, Mrs. Therapy Association, Pata, or Patah, if we want to be fancy about it. you know it was like well we're promoting the the advance in suicide and assisted therapy and then it was like but it's to address the mental health crisis and you know it was like oh is it the nation's

mental health crisis and it's like no this is the national it's an international crisis and you know this affects everywhere in all types of people you know whether or not they look like you and i or they're not their age you know it's just all of that none of that matters and so you know, it's that like, where do you want to go? And it's like, yes, we got to go there. And my big harp within the psychedelic industry or big one of the soap boxes that I have many is, is like we get there by collaborating. You know, it's not a race. And to truly have these impacts that we want and that so many of the people that we talk with, it's let's work together. And that the answer, a lot of it is, you know, like, yes, that could be the perfect option for you

of all the dynamics that are out there. And that's what's important. What's important for the people that could use you these substances and what do they need? And so it's like switching the gear and like, let's look at it from what they want. It's not necessarily where do we want to have to drive the ship to? It's like, where do they need the ship to come to? So where do we go in that? Yeah, so many topics.

Yeah. Kind of like, where do we go? Where do we start? Yeah. Well, maybe we could start with what you do have this long relationship with nonprofits. And that seems to me to come from a place of wanting to help people. But maybe you can talk specifically about how Pata or Pata got, how you started that. Like what was the motivation behind it?

And what is it you seek to do with it? Sure, sure. Those are great. So I'll kind of like back story. Okay. And then kind of, you know, bring, you know, bring forward. What brought me to psilocybin and psychedelics is really addressing my own mental health issues and concerns. PTSD, anxiety, have dealt with depression and have been using psilocybin to really to address that.

And, you know, psilocybin is fun. It's an awesome substance to you. And in my focus, besides when the first time I had it, I think I was like 19 or 20. you know, entirely different context. And then, you know, fast forward and here, you know, here we are, you know, talking about this, but from a therapeutic context. And so kind of then backtracking into my history, started off in law enforcement. That's where, you know, much of my PTSD and, you know, some of those, you know, traumas.

That's, you know, could be, you know, a different topic. But also these are communities that need to serve, you know, or first responders that deal with these issues that often gets, you know, under, you know, underseeing and the power that these substances can have, especially in a therapeutic context. And then from there, I moved into the for-profit world. And it was, you know, I was, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do, right? Just go out there and let's, you know, make as much money and what's, you know, that, that course, which, hey, if that's for you, great.

And I started to drift away from it for a lot of what I was missing was the same thought of like, why did I go into law enforcement is that I wanted to help people. I wanted to be a part of making a difference, you know, in that my personal metrics were not, how much do I sell or how much can I get out? It's always, you know, it's like I'm altruistic by nature. I love to give. And so I transitioned over into a nonprofit, kind of started off new. First job was with the San Francisco Age Foundation, work with AIDS Life Cycle, developing money, you know, raising money, expanding community. And And then I ended up getting a master's degree in nonprofit administration. And what I wanted to really do is kind of like merge together.

It's like, hey, business has a lot of sound principles. There's a lot of things. You don't need to recreate, but it's different. You know, outcomes are different. So it's like how could I adapt to both of these, take this knowledge of, you know, nonprofit, as well as these business understandings to really focus on how can nonprofits be successful and reach the goals because most of the time in nonprofits you get these people with these fabulous ideas. They're like, hey, what I call is the talent. You know, there's people that

come in and it's like, oh, I got this talent and I want to do something. And then they go after it, but they don't know about nonprofit. And it's like, why would you? Why would people know all of these things? So it was like, okay, you're the talent. Let me help you do this. It's like, do your thing. And then I'll help with the background. I'll help with growing it, you know, offer the advice. And so kind of fine-tuned into more like consulting, really around this. So I started a target like new to developing organizations, you know, bringing organizations from small, you know, over to over a million dollar, you know,

organization. So still small, but having an impact really growing because that first steps are the difficult ones. Right. To get going kind of like mental health, you know, some of those first steps of really getting going or even taking the psychedelics and it's scary once you get through it and then you're like oh so started to merge more into the mental health realm and started to really be more of a leader within mental health focused organizations which mental health is very broad scoping

you know that a lot of other things can follow underneath there without it being like sit down talk therapy right so and a lot of them were focused around alternative um let's see one of my other passions is helping foster youth. I've adopted two girls out of the foster care system when they were little, so it's a huge passion of mine. These are folks that also deal with trauma, you know, and military veterans. And, you know, there's, what a huge difference between combat veterans and, you know, and, you know, former and current foster youth that have to deal with those challenges. You know, trauma base. So moving it forward. And then it was really that kind of like Lisa, who's a founder with Lisa Ritter, she's licensed mental health counselor. And I started discussing our

similarities. She's, she's the talent, you know, and she's, you know, agrees on all this psilocybin approach. And it was like, hey, here I am. I love, you know, suicide and mental health. I know how to do this stuff. Let's merge it together and create this. So about a year and eight months ago, we started the Silsa and Assistant Therapy Association and our primary goal out the, you know, out the gates or whatever term was we wanted to get information out there. And we wanted to be free. And we've personally put in a lot of money, a lot of time to make these available. Because part of my approach in the nonprofit world was, well, let's get something out there that people can use. And then we can start building off of there instead of like waiting for something or waiting for somebody to just give us a million dollars to move forward.

And so it was like, hey, you know, and around this time was when Measure 109 was coming through in Oregon, around Oregon, Silicon Services. So it's a lot of education. You know, but coming at it as like, oh, a business hat and the therapy hat and, you know, challenging where they were at, kind of defined on around where we really settled on. It was like, we know we wanted to promote the advancement of psilocylicity and assisted therapy. And then settled on these pillars of like, what was missing was really this education and empowerment. And it's education and empowering all of us, you know, consumers, users, therapists, guides, sitters, all of these amazing people. But it's all for the same goal of it's to help the client in their mental health. So how do we do that?

And that's where we came up with this free guidebook and these other resources to be like, hey, here's this free tool. And, you know, starting to go off into broader issues of the nonprofit and the psychedelic industry and how is it being promoted and whatnot is like you have major players that have a ton of money and that can start to dictate. You know, and we're not that. You know, we're trying to also be the counter to that. That it's not as complex as you think, you know, the stigmas around psychedelics, especially, you know, I mean, we're, you know, middle-aged men, you know, grew up, you know, on the tales of the war on drugs and those stigmas. And, you know, I still have challenges talking about this stuff with my parents, you know, so it's like, how do we, you know, how do we deal with that? And yeah, so just getting back to kind of like, it's about collaboration. It's really changing it and moving it forward and knowing that direction. And I think that, you know, as we, as stronger as a community, that it's like, yeah, let's keep this in mind.

It's like, who is this really about? This isn't about taking drugs. It's like, oh, you can do it. Sure, fine. You know, whatever. Do whatever you want. As long as you're being safe and responsible, hey, have that. But the folks that need it the most that's going to prove their quality of life, all of this, it's like, let's not mess it up.

And this isn't about making money. This is about getting it out there for them. And what can we do to drive that forward? How do we support each other? How do we, you know, you and I here, you're doing this, all of this. This is like, this is about changing, you know, an impact on people's lives. It really could be a turning point. And it's really scary at the same time.

That's, you know, all of this, you know, it's the setting off into the, you know, using our maps analogy, it's like setting off into the horizon and being like, all right, there goes the, you know, the land. I hope we make it. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah. I think it's beautiful.

And I'm, I love the idea of like the three prong thesis you guys have of like education, empowering and healing. I think that that's like a nice. And it's, it's almost, it's spiritual in a nature because it's like the Trinity, right? Like you have like the three different parts of it right there. And I think that psychedelics are a huge part of healing. And it's more than all of us coming together and healing someone. It's almost like the, it's almost.

almost like the psychedelics or the entheogens are giving people the tools to heal themselves. And that kind of goes against the model we've had of medicine for a long time. It's always been, hey, you need this intermediary to come in here and tell you what's wrong with you. You need this other person to give you some drugs. You need this other, you know, like you need all these things, which is a way of collaborating. But now it's a way of us just kind of holding space for each other and being like, okay, it's your turn. Jump in the middle there. What are you going to, what are you got to work on?

It's interesting, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's, you know, the stories that I'm a networker, I talk with people, just how, you know, we all start with something that's really common, even though we may look different. Yeah. You know, we could present different ages, different orientations, whatever we want to be. But we have this common thing that really intersects. And that's really appealing because it's like, wow, I talk to these people and it's like, I would never talk with you outside of this situation.

But we have this common thing, you know, and it's like you could be, you know, I'm very liberal. You know, I live in Portland, Oregon. You know, what are these places? And I talk with people that are almost like on the opposite. And it's like, you and I would never have a conversation. And isn't it awesome that we're talking about this? Because that's that collaboration and that's the power. And that is in that sense of kind of like it grinds us, rounds us into something.

And I don't know, for Silas Seidman, it's like, this is a natural thing, right? I live in the Pacific Northwest. I can go, you know, in my backyard. And the stuff is out there, you know? Like people go on these parties to go out in the wilderness. And it's like, what a beautiful thing. So it's like that same grounding back to earth. It's this grounding nature.

The medical, you know, system, like, yeah, it has huge flaws. And then it's, you know, become this business. but then it's like we've almost missed out on this thing that's been around, right? And, you know, they get back into the cave. You know, they talk about how did intellect, you know, advances that it could have been around these psychedelics and, you know, fungi and, you know, the mycelial network and all of these things. And it's like, gosh, you know, the Earth is so amazing. And another thing that it's like you could go in there. But what I see is like all of these pieces are really more connected than what we see is that there's not, it's like, what's stopping.

siloed about this. Right. And what our ultimate purposes or goals address the mental health crisis. Let people be productive members of society. Whatever that means for them. You know, it's like, hey, whatever you want to do, go for it, be it. However you want to do it, same with psych, you know, psychedelics. If you want to use it for, you know, personal reasons or, you know, going out and having fun, great. You'll probably get a lot out of that, you know, you might get that, you know. If it's ritualistic and you want to do something with a shaman and in circles and all of that, it's great. You know, if you want to do something in a structured environment with a medical, hey, that's great because it's about what you want. If you feel educated, empowered, yeah.

Let me ask you this, because you do have a background in nonprofits and, you know, I would call you an expert that you have so much experience in it. When you look at this space right here, you know, you have a different perspective than I do because I don't know anything about nonprofits. profits. And I'm curious to get someone's opinion with the experience that you have. What do you see unique about this? And before you answer that, I want to draw an idea about the cannabis because I think we could draw a parallel. If you look at what's happening to prices with cannabis in places where it's legalized, it's almost been dropped to the rock bottom floor. And it's, it's interesting how whether it's through competition or whether it's through laws, whatever it is, it seems to me that that these plant medicines and entheogens,

it's almost like they don't want to be sold for a profit. It's almost like it's unprofitable. And that you could argue that that was some of the reasons why it didn't really blow up the last time around. It's because people couldn't find a real way to monetize it. We see it today with people searching for patents or people searching for devices that can administer the drugs. And there's all these ways people are desperately trying to wrap their arms around

and to make a profit, but you guys have decided to take this other approach, like this nonprofit approach. And that seems to be something that is harmonious with the way these things are being consumed. So maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Sure. And one of the things in my consulting or when I'm talking with people about how to, you know, develop nonprofit, you know, is that it's like besides the literal like non-profits, right, you know, that it's like, you know, just wrap your head around.

Right. And that also doesn't mean you can't make money. Right. And it also doesn't mean that you can't make a really good wage. You know, there are people within the nonprofit worlds that make, you know, really good. There is a level when a nonprofit starts to grow and, you know, you have a CEO making $450,000 that I would start to question, you know, like, are you, you know, really like you're, you know, it's too far of a difference. But getting back down, you know, that concept of profit. of, well, at the end of the year, like, we don't get any of it.

It goes back into it. And the smart business practices is, I mean, you don't have to have a profit at the end of a year. Utilize your services. It's like, pay your employees. Like, you could still do these things. Employees don't need to make under wages as long as you're making a fair wage. You know, do these things that allow, encourage everybody.

Yeah. Break away from the thought that it's like, oh, you either have to be in it for money or you have to be do all this work for free. And I do a ton of work for free and I don't mind that, you know, I can handle it. So it's like that change of a mentality. And the other thing is that like when you create a nonprofit, it's governed by the board. The board doesn't own it. It's owned by the community. And so when you create a nonprofit, you're literally, you give it to the community. and then it's governed by some select individuals who run kind of like the direction and then let the, you know, staff kind of, you know, run the day to day.

Big mind switch of like, hey, you know, I mean, I'm on boards, you know, people are presidents. And it's like the president doesn't own it. They're just somebody has to leave. But at the end of the day, you know, it's like, your board members are doing a lot more work than they're getting necessarily getting out of it. So that concept, what I find it resonates within the psychedelic industry, particularly with Syphiban, is that this is another one of those things is like, it's out there. This is a natural thing. Like you don't need to do anything to it.

Like you can literally, right? Yeah. However you want to get it, you know, whatever, whatever those are. So it's that concept that I think really lends well to this, as a. this industry goes that, you know, we're talking about something that is the communities. And even within, and I'm not an extra, you know, within you start getting indigenous communities and tribes, you know, certainly, you know, like peyote is much more indigenous, you know, oriented and has, you know, sacred, you know, it's around, you know, the Wichita people, you know, Mexico

and, you know, how they use it is about their society and where they're going. Sillicide is different, which is another thing I like about that. And that's, you know, there's not an ownership of that. And even within the communities, you know, and again, I'm not, you mean an expert, but it's like, indigenous communities weren't about ownership, right? They weren't like, this is mine. No one else can use it. The challenges came from the folks, you know, that look like me that are abusing it,

that doing that. So again, kind of like if the nonprofit approach and if people can get around that it's like, And even an altruistic not-for-profit approached for-profit business, there's nothing wrong with that. But that manner of like, how do we make it most acceptable and available to the most number of people? So outcomes becomes the other thing. It's like ultimately it's like, what is your outcome? If you're wanting it to be eye control, I want to have this, you know, I want to make money, which is great. hey, that's what you want to do, but you're also not necessarily being part of the solution

about addressing what really needs, mental health crisis. How do we get all of it? And you don't have to have some diagnosis to be addressing, you know, end of life. How does that, you know, so much that's out there. And so that's what, I mean, what I would like to kind of challenge people as they're thinking about their direction and their businesses is, is think about your outcomes and you could have it both and even equity equity comes into a lot of it where i see is kind of like ultimately comes down to you know how do we make this not something that's just going to be for you know for rich people and you know what demographically who is it going to be it's going to be for rich older white people you know and that is not where necessarily all the mental

health you know crisis is it should be accessible you know for everybody so how do we make sure that that is there. And I think if it might be sidestepping a little bit, but people that like a lot of questions I get in around people who are like, oh, we want this to be equitable and we want to have equity. But then it's like, what you're doing it in a token manner, you're saying, oh, look, I have this person here. Look, we're equitable. Or we're going to create a fund and we're going to help somebody underserved. And so you helped one person. And it's like, oh, yay, great for that one person who it's more comparison like hey they just won the lottery so they can improve their mental health instead of being like how do we really make it accessible and so like measure 109

in oregon has a lot of these you know challenges around it you know so it's like yay we have mental health you know we have this organ psilocyte and services that's providing this structure but it's like yay but then also nothing about it is really addressing it's not mental health therapy even like everybody calls it mental health therapy she's actually said to be like Like there's zero clinical that it's around it. And but they put the onus on, and again, I might be sidetracking, put the onus of the equity on the individuals having to start the companies that are doing that. And then it's like, but that's not their mojo.

That's not where they're at. Or these things are like, oh, look, we did something or we benefited a company. And it's like, oh, you helped one person or maybe five people got out that. What about, you know, the thousands of people that really, really, really. really need it. You know, and so what I'd like to see is more of kind of like these conversations coming to the table. And I think that's where nonprofits can really be the leaders in pushing that out there is that, you know, I changed legislation in the past. I would love to continue to be able to, you know, do that. But it's like, hey, look at who I have as a community. I have everybody

behind me that I'm representing. I'm not representing stakeholders. I'm not representing a patent. I'm not representing, you know, I'm not a lobbyist. I'm not going for, like, I really don't care who you are. You know, we may not sit down and have a drink together or, you know, something. But, you know, so that's where it's like, let's change that narrative together. Let's be the community together that's really aligning it. And that's where we kind of want to go with Pata is that, you know, these are broad scoping. But it's like getting it is like, let's collaborate. There's no competition between guides and therapists. They each have their own role. You know, every guide is, hey, it's great. Just don't be the 21-year-old guide that says you're a mental health therapist when you have a high school degree, you know, because that hurts the safety of the ongoing.

Another thing that I get into is even like the terms that we use and the semantics to it, you know, it's like, Tripp. Like, what does that mean? Yeah, it's like, no, it's an experience. Like all these connotations that you bring in or like your messaging that you're doing, if you're all in the second. ways. It's like that's very intimidating for many people. Yeah, because you're going to bring up those stereotypes, especially, you know, people, death dying and older people, generations that, you know, including our generation, that is kind of like you see that and your immediate thing is like, you know, you think of the 60s and the sun and all that. And that's like, hey, that was great,

but that is nothing to do with this wave. So change the narrative of it. Start using different terms. Start using things that are not like, you know, if we all keep going back to these and everybody thinks that all of us that are doing psychedelics are seeing pink elephants, and that equates to therapy. And it's like, whoa, like you're totally wrong. So how do we switch this? Sorry. No, it's perfect. I think that's all relevant. There's something to be said about language, especially when we begin talking about therapy or patterns or, you know, mental health. I think all those things are relevant and they all play a role. And, you know, let me, just let me shift gears here and ask you this question, which I think is relevant. In your opinion,

do you think that the mental health in the 21st century, is it getting worse? Are we seeing, we seem to see it everywhere. It's on television. It's in our communities. Is mental health getting worse? Or is it that we just have more increased awareness about it now? What do you think? I would say both is the acceptance of mental health. Like, I'm a completely functional person. You know, I can speak in front of people and I don't, you know, have any issues. My PTSD and, you know, anxiety, I can be sitting at, you know, standing in a grocery store line and somebody stands too next to me and I'm like, you know, you know, irritating. So, you know, it's like I'm functional.

And what is mental health? You know, death and dying, spirituality is still a mental, it could be a mental health thing, you know. It could be like, oh, I'm exploring my spirituality. And the other one, you know, it could be like, well, my spirituality is like off the rockers right now. How do I deal with this and thinking? So it's like the definition of like mental health is, you know, everything around there. And I think the challenge is really this, you know, bombardment that we get of, you know, oh, you should be, you need to be concerned with this, you know, and we're already over inundated with everything.

You know, it's like, oh, how am I? supposed to parse through all the political stuff that's going on, the government worrying, worrying about whether or not, you know, mortgages, what am I going to be able to do with? Some of these things, you know, admit are very, you know, privileged things to be able to say. But it's all different, you know, and it's all valid, you know. I'm not religious. I'm highly spiritual, you know. So that's what I think it's the combination, but it's the, I would say maybe it would be interesting to look at more what the effects of it are is that when you have such how many people

are having more anxiety or addressing it you know you feel more comfortable with it and that if there's alternatives is that like hey yeah you know it's like my mental health could be talking with my best buddy you know it could be going to a therapist it could be talking with somebody else it could be walking in nature it could be i just need to smoke a joint every night and be able to chill you know all of those things. And where I kind of put the precipice on, as is as I said, is it affects the people's quality of life, then that really is an issue. Because quality of life doesn't have to be, how many cars you have?

Do you even have a car? Do you even have a home? You know, I know people that have a ton of money and they're miserable. And, you know, I've talked with people on the streets who, you know, I've talked to people on the streets who, you know, have their issues and they're also completely content. And so it's like, what are we imposing on there? And maybe this is getting more into question. It's like, what do we as a Western civilization say is the mental health issue?

Do you need to have a home? Do you need to do that? You know, do I need to live in a, you know, five-bedroom house? I was like, no. You know, do. So it's really, you know, but and that's what I feel like it's, it's about what the individual ones and let's get rid of the biases of all this other stuff, Republican Democrat, who cares?

If you're a military veteran and even if you don't support, you know, the wars that they want through, these people are suffering. Like, why should they be committing suicide? You know, this is, it's just like there's so much more to that. That it's like the answer, you know, I feel like all the times that it's like the answer is just yes. Because if it matters to you, because then that's what, like, really like, where are we going with our generation.

You know, it's like our kids. We need to take care of our kids. How do we do that? How do we be productive? How do we not, you know, how do I not pass on the messed up things that happened in my life, you know, onto the future? How do we instill their, you know, their success? God, it's really such a complex because definitions, right?

Yeah. Oh, do you have a mental health issue? No, I do not. You know, it's like, oh, I do. We know, like, so what? Yeah. You know, what is it? One in four. They say one and four people are dealing with, you know, really mental health issues. You know, that's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. Hundreds of millions, billions of people worldwide. And I would see that is probably even, you know, when you get into where the bulk of the populations, you know, are and their struggles that aren't even within our Western, you know, Western realm. Yeah. Getting off into other topics. But, you know, But, you know, we're going to say one of the things within the therapy realm that we see, you know, that we're trying to change the narrative on is even like, well, one, what is therapy? You know, there's the common use. And we do this comparison of like, you have capital T therapy, lower case therapy, and therapeutic. Therapy is in a protective term.

A therapist is in a protective term. So people say that, oh, I'm doing therapy, but their common thing, that when you say, hey, I'm going to see my therapist, you're going to see your licensed mental health provider. You're not going to see, you know, your whoever else. Some people might be, but the vast majority. And I think that's what we need to put in the length of what is everybody else thing, not the, you know, 100th of a percent that you and I are within the realm and that, you know, many of people are. It's wrong, what everybody else is. And that's, you know, hey, retail therapy. Right.

That's, but that's not therapy. And then therapeutic. You know, like, there's therapeutic values. So, like, are we using that across the board and are people using that? And so one of my probably largest perks within the industry right now is when they're here, like, Oregon has a psilocybin therapy program. And it's like, no, there's no therapy. It could be used in a therapeutic context. And why that matters is, you know, client safety is that people throw out these terms because,

hey, it's good, right? It's sexy. You don't get me more money. It'll get me in here and I can use it. But what about the people going into this? And, you know, I'll use myself as an example. I'm six foot four. I'm 260 pounds. I'm a trained black belt. I've been trained to do things to people. I'm a very gentle, nonviolent man. But if you have somebody like me and you, you know, had a false pretense and I came in thinking I was getting more and I had an experience right or even bad experience right there's no bad experience you know that's another connotation of the 60s it's a beneficial experience no matter what and I have a reactive thing are you able to do that do you want to deal with with me you know in an altered state you know big difference between like

oh you know holding my hand and coming up and holding my hands would be very triggering so are we like Like you guys have the, you know, the community out there's like, do you have the wherewithal to really identify that? You know, it's like, you're going to come at me? I've heard these things. It's like, oh, somebody gets filed and you just help them with a pillow. And I'd be like, that way. You know. So what are you going to do with like combat veterans that are even, you know, dealing more issues?

It's like these are the folks that need it. These are the folks that we get emails to that are asking for question, you know, are asking for this. So this concept of therapy. And then, you know, what about, you know, people that are dealing with, you know, a sexual trauma? You know, again, you know, a little handheld. And so that's where it's like, hey, guides and sitters and all these is like, you're awesome what you're doing. But we also need to know our boundaries.

Just like therapists, they need to know their boundaries. We all need to do it. But it's us working together because he's like we have this ideal thing. It's like, wouldn't it be awesome if therapists and the guides could work together to really discuss what would be the best thing? And one of the, sorry, if I'm going a little off time. I don't know. I feel like this kind of is in there that when we talk with therapists, about like, hey, what is there, you know, what's your, what's your hesitations? And, you know,

they'll be like, oh, you know, like set and setting and this intention things. And it's like, well, and it made me realize there's kind of a dual track of definitions. And so for, you know, a guy or a sitter, when you're getting into set and setting, you're talking about the structural, the logistic set and setting, you know, as well as some of the, you know, mental health. But it's like, for therapists, you don't need to worry about, like, because that's where the licensure issue comes from. It's like, you don't need to worry about how is the dose coming, you know, what form. Like, that's not imperative.

That's not their role. What they need to focus on is that like the set and setting from their point of view is the mental health preparation. And all of this is the stuff that's legal because of harm reduction. So it's like, you could talk about your intention setting. Like, hey, you know, Jason, you know, what's going to be your intention going. into this. I understand that you're, you know, you're looking to explore psychedelic assistant therapy. You don't have to discuss anything. What's you going to be intention? Because we've been discussing

this, this and this. So be sure when you're going in there, that this is what's coming in. And then if they can take and relate that to their, to their person, to be like, this is what I want to talk about. This is what I want to focus on. So this way the guide can keep on be putting it down in there. But they're like, you don't need to worry about all of the logistics because that's what these professionals are for. It's like then you just really need to be prepared for the integration aspect. I'm doing a little timeline. So the integration aspect of after the dose, right? So even that, you know, integration for mental health therapist is all about that,

really that strong mental health, really diving in. Integration, you know, like designed around Oregon psilocybin services and what some guides and sitters will be is just really a post follow-up, you know, that directive, non-directive types of questions. And so it's like, how do we, as the community, really make sure that, you know, it's that we're talking about the same things, even though we might be have different approaches, you know, or that like as a therapist is like, no, you don't need to talk about dosage at all. Like, you don't need to get any in any of that

because you're a trained mental health. Keep it within the mental health, let the other professionals deal with it. And then you are on the other side and there's a great segue between, you know, integration of the person that just, you know, did the experience with the, you know, with the clients helping them process and then knowing that boundary of like, hey, this is a pretty serious issue. I'm not going to get out of my bounds, even though I understand that I'm a very wise person. People have tremendous knowledge. But it's like certain issues should be more towards, especially if that's the outcome that the client is looking for. Yeah. Right. No, it's, it's beautiful.

No, it's good. I want to bring up, because we began talking about definitions and words and therapy and capital T, lowercase T, you know, all these ideas of therapy. You know, I think the way, I see something emerging, and I'm curious if you see this emerging. You know, there's all these loaded terms when we think about therapy. When you think about therapy, you think about solving a problem that somebody has. And it's PTSD and that puts people in this box, right? But what if? Because everything you're describing to me, I think there's a better word for therapy.

And I think that's called optimization. And I think if people, if I come to you, Jason, for an optimization session, now all of a sudden I'm not a person that has a giant problem that could freak out and lose it. I'm a person coming to you to make my life even better than it was. And they're almost congruent. But optimization is a more colorful,

a more robust, pattern that sits on top of therapy. And I think you can really change the game, especially as a nonprofit. I think you could find yourself in a position where you're optimizing people's performance versus solving a problem. Because if I come to you for therapy, it's already a given that you should be a little afraid of me because I have a problem. But if I'm coming to you for optimization, then now that wipes away a lot of these problems

of like, oh, this person may come at me with a pillow or, you know, it just, let's just take that out by calling it optimization. And I think people would want to go to an optimist instead of going to a therapist. And it just seems like a better way. And here's even another part that I was thinking about. And it's relevant because the first wave to me is getting better. The first wave is therapy. The second wave is optimization. And people have money to pay for optimization. The rich white guy that, like me that lives in Hawaii, that wants to get some neurofeedback with his psilocybin session to figure out what part of my amygdala is being stimulated after nine grams. Like, I want to figure this stuff out, man. It's important to me.

Like, I'm going to pay extra for that versus my friend who came back from Iraq and lives under a bridge. But my money, the money I give you for my optimization session could be leveraged back to pay for someone's eyeball gain session. You know what I mean? so the optimization could pay for the therapy. And I think it's not really putting people in boxes, but it's just putting people on different tracks because eventually therapy leads to optimization. What would your take on that?

Yeah, I think that that's a really fascinating, you know, way of thinking about it. And, you know, what kind of the first thing that came into my mind was just, it's just these negative connotations, you know, like therapy. And even, you know, it's like, you know, I'm married to a therapist, you know, just being an awesome therapist. Yeah, of course. With, you know, two sisters, you know, both PhDs, you know, and it's like, you know, in one manner or another. And even our friends, you know, like talking with you.

You know, all of, you know, this stuff. And so it's like, it's so complex. And, you know, it's like, yeah, there's these words. And where I kind of question is, is like, yeah, that's great. You know, it's like, I love the optimization. That's a way of doing it. but the the challenge that I see is

what and this is where I kind of like flip it okay now let's flip it to look from what the consumers are the clients the public everybody in the world you know are they going to get that

and they have to because they are told what to get and we as people in charge are setting the standard for what care people are going to get that's what I meant it's kind of sucks to say it like this, but the medical industry dictates to people what they have. They dictate their problem.

They dictate their medicine. And so if we want to flip the game, that's how it's been. And, you know, I'm not saying we can't change it, but I think we change it from the bottom up. It's if we allow for the continued medicalization, the top down, like you, you had recently posted an article about medicalization being a sort of soft prohibition, right? I thought that was fascinating. And right, like, That's pretty impressive. So if we use that method, like, let's just get rid of all that. Like, we don't need to push it right to the side. Hey, by the way, why don't you come in for our optimization session?

Like, that's just a better, it's just a better policy, I think. Yeah. And I think, you know, it puts a really in, you know, just the premise of, you know, the premise of that is that we're kind of, you know, it's like we do have to change the narrative. And so it's like, and I would say that, you know, we butt up against and, you know, the industry and all is like, oh, you know, it's almost like this, you know, it's Western versus Eastern. It's like, no, it's not.

You know, but what are the terms and how do we, you know, it's like, how do we buck some of this, the system? Well, still, it's also like the system's there. Right. And we need to, like, we're not going to compete against the billion, trillion dollar industry that over up against. But we could change. And I think the, I feel what's missing within the industry as a whole from my perspective. in conversations is we all kind of have very similar beliefs. There might be, you know, some little things. But when we kind of shave it down, you know, it's like we're there.

We believe in the power of psychedelics. We believe that, you know, psychedelics have a therapy. You know, there's so much that's in there. We believe in accessibility. We believe in equity. We believe in all of that. And we believe that we also want to be able to live lives. Yeah.

You know, in there. So it's like if we do it one off, you know, it's like, oh, I like this term. You like this term. You do this term. It doesn't help moving forward. I'm not necessarily saying I have a solution for this, you know, that we need to have more cohesion. And I think that with the, you know, if you just look at the timeline of this wave of psychedelics

is, you know, for it's been going on, you know, the wave of. started and we're kind of in this and it's still going to keep going. So, you know, you know, it's like in some way, we're dealing with all of, you know, the precursor waves. Right.

We need to make a change. And it's almost like, I feel like the challenge to us is a community and the literal challenge that I would put out to everybody is like, let's, if we're going to change the narrative, let's do it together. Let's do it with people,

you know, it's like, let's create the large, table that doesn't include organizations that want to patent psilocyte and assist therapy so that it means their thing under a Western model and it can't be used you know any place else right or that it has to be done through a synthetic you know and it's like hey great someone else to take a synthetic go for that would be awesome but do you really need it you know it's kind of so it's

like how do we you know and what I would love to see is and I've been talking with more organizations is it's almost like this think tank thing to be like let's throw out all these words optimization what do we like what do we don't like you know like we used we started off using the word consumer and we like the double pun you know right it's like people are right but then it's also you're consuming right so it was kind of fun but then you know it was like oh but people have these you know connotations of consumer meaning purchasing in the for-profit realm and it's like well you know that's really good so we're thinking of a new term but it's like well you're thinking of a new term but it's like well what's that term you be?

I can't just pull it out and then be like, okay, everybody else is going to understand that. But collectively, if we could all be, hey, let's start agreeing that a bunch of us are going to start using these terms and redo it that would be, you know, I don't have the solutions to it, but I'm sure if a bunch of us got together, we could start doing it,

that would include the Western, include the Eastern, that's not like a, you know, you're bad, you're bad, you know, these types of things that happens within the psychedelic communities where everybody starts, you know, this model isn't. And it's like, you know, let's move beyond that and really start talking about the solutions to it instead of always being reactive. The answer is like, let's start being proactive. Let's us within the communities be the ones that are going to redefine what this wave is

and have the collective ability that when somebody comes in and be like, oh, I want to take this and I want to patent it, we're all going to be pushing against this. We're all going into legislature and being like all of us that are serving these communities and look how many thousands of people that I have behind me and all of these, that are your constituents, by the way, right? And that, you know, there's so much power in that that we don't have individually. You know, like our few thousand people that are, you know, within our community.

community directly that I'm aware of and somebody else's few thousand people will compete against. We can make that change if we're doing it. And but the challenges is that it's so much is going on and everybody's trying to figure out. How do we do that? But I would love, you know, and I would challenge anybody out there if you like that is like, let's talk about that. You know, it's independent of Pata. These are things that need to be done.

There's all these tremendously smart people. Let's start doing that. Let's make the change. Let's be the ones that are going to be changing that narrative. Even if it's not a huge thing, you know, like we're never going to compete with Western model. It's not going to change. What would be the first topic? Let's say we got together like a group of 10 influential people.

What would be the first topic that you would want to discuss at that meeting? That's really great. I'm going to process this through. Yeah, of course. A little bit of a thing that you talked. about earlier, but like building the ground up and what I kind of do within the consulting and within nonprofits is that I talk about this, you need to find your tip of the pyramid. And none of this is like, ooh, I've never thought about this before.

But then it's like, oh yeah, I forgot about this. This is exactly right. It's like you need to find your top of the pyramid. Where are you going to? You need to find your North Star, right? Getting back to the maps analogy, you know, setting sail. They weren't just like, okay, we're pushing off and we're just going to head in this direction. It's like, that's the North Star.

We know if we head in that direction, or we're going to use that as our reference point. We need to come together to figure it's like, what's going to be the piece? I would think it probably falls in the realm of the ultimate solution is, you know, if psychedelics were just, you know, completely legal, removed from any schedules, where people could use it for their own things. Like that would be like if we could get there, that's a long process. There'll be a lot of stages. And then, you know, so figuring that up collectively, what do we want it to be? Accessibility.

Do we want to be, you know, and I think there's things that then fall underneath there, which would probably be like accessibility, destigmatizing. Yeah. You know, coming into, you know, terms of like really what is, like what do we want psychedelics to be from all of us? You know, I'm mental health focus. It shouldn't just be what I think. You know, I don't have the answers.

You and I. Somebody else and somebody else and somebody else. And we kind of parse through and figure that out, figure out some of the key things. And then we go to the bottom. And then we work up because we know where we're going. Because what happens to many organizations, nonprofits, is that they start here, you know,

because, you know, the person will be like, oh, I want to do this. And they have this pretty broad scoping. And then programs develop like, this. And so then they're not going to either. And so you have two great ideas, but they don't benefit each other. And we're using different things. And then it comes to the point of like, oh, no, I'm trying to make my hands balanced here. You know, oh, no, like, well, what do we do? We got to we got to get rid of this one because now this is the track that we're going, but we

wasted all these time and these resources. And so as a community, you know, if we could be, you know, all pushing off from the old world to the new world, but we're heading in the right direction. going to get there. You know, I could have a sailing ship, somebody else could have a rolling ship, somebody else could have a steamboat or a jet engine. But we're all going to get there. We're all going to the same place and, you know, we're working together. I've had a couple conversations, you know, lately around this kind of like more and more of this concept of the old boys club. There's a great article. I saw on, you know, LinkedIn, well, this organization has been promoting itself as, you know, women and psychedelics, you know, collective.

And one of their things was, is like, let's change it from the old, you know, boys club into, you know, this, you know, I forgot the term that they used, but this like super women's network. And it's that kind of like, yeah, let's start changing out of this because even within psychedelics now, it's like a few people get all of the attention. Right. And it's like, oh, you got Rick Doblin or, you know, Paul Stamets. And it's like, those guys are awesome. But it's like there's so many other people. Yeah. It's like, why do we keep following back to the same people?

Let's expand out. Let's get some of these new voices in. You know, are we doing this because that's the sellable thing? You know, a couple of these people became, you know, sexy and intriguing. And you get their knowledge and your things. And, hey, I'm trying to do those two. You know, it's like, I'm trying to connect with these people. But, you know, it's like, let's also start celebrating some of these others.

It's like, yeah, you know, these women's networks is, you know, the people of color, psyched out, you know, collective, you know, all of these that, you know, like, they're in this process. They're like, we don't want to see it at the table. We want to create our own table. You know, and that's like, that's awesome. It's like, let's expand it out there because if we really are going to be equitable, there's all of these other issues that we need to address that need to be a part of that. And it's kind of like, let's start spreading some of the well. And within the nonprofit world, it happens a lot, you know, of like, hey, once you get to certain level, you just get so much money. If you look at them like Harvard and these huge schools,

you know, they bring in millions of dollars and get millions of dollars or donors and they're sitting on billions. Yeah. And they're still asking for money. And then it's like, hey, you know, here I am, you know, a nonprofit as an example. Yeah. So, you know, it's like I'm, you know, I've put in a lot of money into this and a lot of time, you know, it's like, how about, you know, shifting it over to some of the other people that are doing, shifting that so that we can be a part of spedding this out, because otherwise, you know, the folks with the money are really controlling the direction

of where they go. You know, Maps is an awesome organization, but there's a lot more than Maps out there. Yeah. You know, there's a lot. And so, yeah, it's just, I mean, all these things start to kind of like wrap back into the same issues of like we need to expand, you know,

the psychedelics about mind expansion and getting rid of the ego. And it's like, well, why aren't we like, let's do that. You know, like get rid of our ego is on this. Expand it. We're all in the same direction. Spread it out. So there's new knowledge that we can come up with these new terms or these new ways that are going to make it more accessible.

It's going to make it more approachable. And that, hey, whatever you want to use psychedelics for, it's like as long as it's safe and responsible, I don't care. Go have. you know, have fun with it. But if we don't do that, we're going to miss out on the ultimate thing is, is that a lot of people need this. Yeah.

Like, it's pitiful that people are, you know, committing suicide or wanting to do that or the challenges, you know, I mean, I've been in those areas myself, you know, it's like, this is insane, you know, that we should do this. The limitation is us collectively. It's not that we can't because there's a tremendous, you know, knowledge base out there. And organizations, you know, like your podcasts that are just, you know, they're doing this. They're helping to expand people's minds. And so it's like, let's now collectively get together and move forward.

That's where I'd kind of like to see is this next step is like together. Collaboration, partnerships, move it forward, change the road into what we want to do. But it's all of us deciding on where it goes, not just me, not just you, not just somebody else. Yeah, that's really well said. And I feel like we're just kind of scratching the surface, Jason, because I think we can really, I think you and I can continue to talk one of the two hours and start to build out of framework. So you'll have to come back and we'll have to make it like a series where we come in and we, you know, we find some time to talk about the issues of the day. And I have some ideas that I want to talk to you about once we get off. But for now, before I let you go, why don't you tell me what you got coming up, where people can find you, where they can get.

your free book and the free resource you guys are offering. Talk a little bit about that and then what you're excited about. Great. Well, I'm excited about so many things in this industry. I'll try not to dwell too much on that. So Cilocybin Assisted Therapy Association, where National 501C3 nonprofits, all volunteer run. I'm not making any money.

There's my partner. Nobody in it with volunteers. there's www. p.a.p.a. org or if you just, you know, search us, you know, we're out there. And we have two great resources out there. One of them is a free self-assessment test. It's a suicide and assisted therapy, a self-assessment test.

It would help somebody figure out, like, should I have a mental health therapist with me or not, really depending on where their answers are, you know, and also being like, like, hey, you may not realize you need one now, but maybe think about it, you know, or being aware of where, you know, what does that mean? So help to kind of guide the direction into somebody of like, yeah, do you just want to take suicide in by yourself or, you know, with your friend or do you want to do it with a guide or you want to have a therapist involved, kind of helps them steer in that direction, free online tool.

And then we have our PAT guidebook for consumers, which are going to be changing the name from consumers to something else or just the guidebook. But for the general public, and we created, it's a 45-page document that really gets into what is psilocybin assistant therapy, and then pros and cons. Like, why would you want to have a therapist involved? Why would you not? Like, what can they do? What can they not do? Hey, Oregon Silicidant Services is awesome. What can they do? What can they not do? You know, guides and sitters are awesome. What can they also do? As well as you could do this by yourself, safety issues, you know, whatnot. It's not as complex, but really that based around education empowering to do so that they can figure out where they want. Download it a lot. We have

MDs, organizations, you know, therapists, guides that just use us on a regular basis. And that's what we wanted it to do is what we designed it to do was that, you know, hey, if you're not sure, like either, hey, I'm a therapist. Somebody says that they're interested in suicide and assisted of therapy, I can't talk to you about it. I'm not comfortable at this time because I haven't figured out where my gray areas are. Here's a resource that explains it. You're a guide and you don't know about therapy. Here's a resource.

And then we're going to be expanding on there and providing more resources. We want to make it that consumer information is free. And then as we're developing more information for therapists, it'll probably have a fee to it just so that we can be sustainable with that. We are looking for donations. Everything that we get right now, 100% is going back in to make sure that we can continue to provide these free resources. And I would love for everybody to take a look at it. And this was also resources. If you were a consumer and you're like, hey, my doctor doesn't know anything about it. My therapist. Hand them this book. And where we're going in the future, in that we're,

you're like funds being raised and some other really cool ideas that I have that I probably won't say at this time, is to have the really entry-level information. You know, because if you go it on the scale, like there are so many organizations that have these incredible programs, you know, $10,000 and you go through a year program and it's like, well, not everybody needs that. And most people can't afford it. What if they did on the opposite end, introductory level? How do we get more therapists involved? How do we get more consumers?

So really that's our area. And then that they can feel empowered to go where they want to go. Because an absolute honest answer would be like, hey, if somebody uses their information and they're like, I don't want to take suicide and I'm not ready to take psilocybin. You know, psychedelics, great. Yeah. You know, may change in the future. But at least you felt like you had an option to determine what it was.

So that's where we're going. And what we're looking for support on is that really is we want this to be out there. We want everybody to understand and we want to be a part of, like our model is based on collaboration. We want to get in touch with everybody. I provide these free services for nonprofit psychedelics to be a part of that. You know, no quit, quote, quote, because I want you to be successful. So all of that is really like we're trying to be that, you know, really leading by an example. And just more people know about us, the more that they could spread out our information, the better.

it allows us to keep going. Our limitation is not from opportunities. I mean, video, you know, project, these intense training programs. We're talking about a conference, but it's, you know, it's only so much. You know, Lisa and I can do even with our volunteers. So it's just like volunteers, sharing our information, talking with us. Let's collaborate. Let's come up with the solutions.

And let's then lastly, I'd say, let's start seriously talking about this kind of of think-tink or large table, and let's start making these changes that we're all talking about, but we're not doing it. Because it's overwhelming collectively. Let's do it together. Yeah, I like that.

Sometimes the idea that paralyzes people is just that the idea is too big and there's no first step to take, right? But once you take that first step, it's like, okay, now I can take another one. And I can take another one. Ladies and gentlemen, go check out the website.

The links will be in the show notes. Jason and his team are given out some free resources. I would highly recommend people go and do some research for yourself. Check out the book. Reach out to Jason. He's an amazing guy to talk to. He is passionate about helping people. And I'm looking forward to further conversations and check out the resources, everybody.

You got to see him here. We're going to be learning a little bit more about his education and power and heal in the months coming up. And there's a lot to come. So thank you all for tuning in today. I really appreciate it. Check out all the free resources, ladies and gentlemen. It's my favorite F, my four-letter word that begins with F is free, right? Thank you, everybody.

That's all we got for today. Thank you. Yeah, hang on one second, Jason. I'm going to talk to you for a moment, but I'm going to hang up here.