TrueLife - Jason Sheffield - Experience Integration -

Episode Date: September 17, 2022

Today we speak w/Jason Sheffield. He takes us on a wild, psychedelic ride from seeker, to adventurer, to journeyman. You can see Jason’s work here: https://www.experienceintegration.com/

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Welcome to the True Life podcast. We have an extra special episode today. Mr. Jason Sheffield of experience integration.

Did I say that right? or is it integration? Okay, experience integration. He's got an amazing backstory and I have listened to a couple of podcasts you've previously been on and I'm excited to talk to you today. Can you maybe introduce yourself for some people who may not be aware of who you are? Yeah, I'd say that's probably the majority of people. So my name is Jason Sheffield. I am based here in Colorado, largely grew up here, spent most of my life in the state. I absolutely. loved it. I tried to move away at one point and ultimately just had to come back. I've got a beautiful family. I've got four kids. And just have, yeah, I've been trying to figure out this life thing

over the last several years. Yeah, it's a, it's a, I feel so fortunate to be in a position to try to figure it out, to be healthy, to be happy, and have some of the luxuries that we have so that we can have a little bit of time to try to figure out what is this thing calling to So what is our goal here? What is our plan? You came from an interesting background. You came from a non-denominational kind of a Christian background. Is that fair to say?

Absolutely. Nice. And then you were, you've recently found your way into helping people integrate the psychedelic experience. But before we get too far up there, I was hopeful that maybe you could tell people a little bit about how you came up. What kind of family were you born into? And what was your philosophical?

What was your religious background? And how did you come up? Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in, I would say, a world of order. You know, there's people I kind of talk about order, disorder, reorder, these phases we go through in life. And my childhood was largely that of order. That order came from a pretty solid relationship in my parents that I observed at an early age. I had a younger sister that was two years younger. And it was just kind of the normal, like family of four middle class. you know, moved to Colorado Springs when I was six, which was a very vanilla town, just kind of basic military. And I didn't experience a lot of diversity. I at kindergarten started going to a Christian school here in town. And so like all of my education was in this framework of Christianity, framework of order, framework of certitude. I've said the right words. I know I'm going to heaven and there was various ways that that like expressed itself. My dad worked for a Christian

non-profit company. Like I grew up in a total bubble. And this bubble supported me in many ways. It gave me a very clear sense of direction. When I was like 16, I wanted to be a pastor. I wanted to be in ministry. Some of these natural born things that I now see came out, like my authority and my ability to communicate, that was highly praised in this very homogenized world. I kind of had all of the right characteristics to be a leader, to be someone of influence, to be a pastor. And so that's what I kind of really followed was part of that was my interior heart that I've really learned to understand.

But a lot of that was constructed around me. So because of that, I just, I kind of did the narrative. I broke the narrative in the sense that I took out of high school. My first year I went to a Bible school in England where I was learning about God and all that good stuff. And then came back and within about a year and a half at age 21, married my high school sweetheart, who I had met in middle school at a missions trip to Mexico. Like, again, you can't make some of the stuff. It was like the classic perfect bubble of the choices that I made and the world that I lived.

in. And so that was what really shaped me was being a good guy, being a good boy in many ways, not breaking the scripts, you know, and repressing a lot of the things that later would come out in my story. So, but that was my upbringing. That was a lot of what I experienced. Man, it's, you know, when I, when I think about that story, I think of a rebirth in a way. Like when you think, and you've seen the miracle of childbirth. Like, in my mind, there's this baby. like your wife is pregnant and the baby is existing in this environment that is totally safe, totally nurtured and it's totally beautiful. And then all of a sudden one day it sees the light and it comes out and it's crying and it's

screaming. In some ways, you were brought up in a similar perfect world where your parents were together. You lived in this environment that was safe and you had the word of God to help guide you this way and show you this stuff and you meet the woman of your dreams in middle school and you have this family. Like in some ways it's so perfect. it is right but you learn from the previous example like in this environment that's perfect here comes the light and you're thrust into another part yeah you kind of live i lived in a

very compartmentalized world um i again i was a i was a human i had sexual desires i had all these things that i was normal but in that context some of those things are very normal were repressed or they were shamed right very much group in the purity culture was a virgin when I got married. Like, man, I did it all. Like, and I did it all well, right? With, again, the motive of like wanting to uphold an image uphold. If I'm going to be a pastor, I have to be someone that is so in tune that I'm not going to connect to my life.

I don't know if you're familiar with Robert Bly and Iron John or if anyone ever has talked about this book. Are you familiar with it? I'm not familiar with it. No. Okay. Great, great book about the journey of the masculine. But in it, he's, it's all built off of a fairy tale. And he uses a lot of mythology.

And he talks about how often boys of ascension, spiritually led boys, often will only be so focused on God that they're not paying attention to their masculinity. And that was me. I was a boy up until probably my mid-30s, if I'm honest, in many ways internally, because I've been so singular focused that I didn't even understand the context of the world around me or the context of my internal. world, which is ironic because what I've now come to learn, like so much of Jesus's teaching is actually about the inner life. And yet we exported that to the professionals to tell us what that inner life should look like. And that was me. Everyone told me what it needed to look like. And so I did it. I followed the rules. Wow. Do you think that that's maybe one of the problems with organized religion is that it has such a strong framework that it allows, it wants you to

be on this path without really finding yourself. Like the guidelines are so strong. It's like stay in this lane right here. Don't not look outward because it's here. Yeah. I mean, I think you can see that pattern in lots of organized religions because the pattern provides certitude. And I think our ego so longs to have a sense of control. I mean, right? I mean, at the end of the day, there's so much what the ego is about is I'm controlling my environment. I'm controlling. I'm in control. And so. So that organized religion taps into that and says, you're right, you can be in control. You can know X, Y, and Z about the afterlife.

Whatever framework you want to apply to that, you can know certain elements of truth and be certain that these things are ironclad. If you look in the vein of Christianity, right, so much of, at least evangelicalism was driven by the Bible. And what is the word of God say? And it's accessible to us. and we can read it any time and it'll guide our lives. And all of that is actually not really understanding again, yeah, we're not in control.

Right. And I think it's about power. It's really, and again, I was part of it. It's really easy to control people, whether it's subconscious or not, in how to worship, how to connect with God. And finding common language to talk about the mystical does serve you. And I did things. I got people to convert. I did like some of that stuff.

And I always felt dirty about it. It's why I ultimately failed as a pastor. But it was one of those things that it's interesting how we, the ego world or the 3D world or the physical world attaches to that. And I think that's where organized religion just really kind of begins to veer off the path. So that you brought up one point I'm really passionate about is language. And I, when I think of language, I think of the Bible because I think of the phrase in the beginning, the word became flesh.

And you had spoken about evangelizing and how you were able to control people or how you're able maybe to influence people with the language you use. I believe it was Samuel Clemens, who said that the spoken, the written word is the carcass of the spoken word. And when I think of a pastor, when I think of a great speaker, I think of someone who, who can paint pictures in the minds of men and women for them to see and act upon. And that idea of language is so powerful. Yes. And it's so powerful in the church.

It's so powerful when there's any sort of speaker. So can you kind of backtrack a little bit and talk a little bit about how you began to develop your ability to speak well? So it came from, it was very natural for me. And it's something that I never really understood until I had my first proper astrology reading with like a proper astrologist. And it was the first time I really began to awaken to some of these deeper spiritual elements that astrology can shape within us. And in that reading, it really came up that for me, my South node, and I got to, I don't remember all the stuff. I just remember what resonated with me.

But that like I was born in a place of authority. and I've always held authority. And so when I learned to communicate well, you know, I preached my first sermon at like 16. One of the harder experiences of my youth was losing my best friend in a rock climbing accident at 19. And then giving a eulogy at his funeral in front of like 800 people because he was a really well-known guy in town and a tragic accident of him falling and a very popular place to climb. And we've been climbing partners for all of our. So anyways, like best friend passes, but I'm giving a eulogy and people are affirming me like, wow, you're so powerful with your voice.

So when I then decided I wanted to be in the ministry, I knew I wanted some outside influence. I got kind of tired of the Christian education thing. So then I went to university for a degree in communications. But that was always like a joke degree. But like I took it seriously. Like I loved communication. It was, it lit me up.

I freaking dominate. I'd never been a very good student in school until I got to that phase. And then I wanted to go to class. I was learning things that were so incredible. And so communication just became this passion. And so when I married that to my natural talent to communicate that I've leaned into, to then something that I'm passionate about, I started to see how I could influence people.

And it became one of those things where if you can get an emotional response from your audience, especially as a pastor, you create a sense of the movement of God. And sure, that can happen. We've all had these pretty incredible experiences, whether you've been at a concert and you just feel the energy of what's taking place. Like, it's powerful, but it can also be used in some negative ways. And I don't think I ever went real negative. There's nothing I look back on, but I definitely understood my capacity.

Man, so I want to unpack this a little bit more, like the idea of an emotional response from the crowd being the movement of God. Can you break that down for me? What does that relationship? What does that mean? Well, so, I mean, when you think about being in a context of trying to communicate, especially in a church environment, you have these tools. And this is often what, again, what organized religion does is, you know, you've got

worship music that's really emotional. And you would, you know, you would talk with your worship pastor and you would know the arc right it's like guys we got startup beat they always do like a cover song like at the very beginning to like get everybody warmed up and it was like real shady if it was like a non-christian like covering the beetles like oh my gosh you know but the everyone loves it so they're like it's okay it's the beetles not really we're sure what they're talking about but it's okay now i fucking love the beetles but um the the reality is you take people on a journey and so then when you begin formulating a sermon or you begin putting it together you know there was this

structure that you would follow. Like you'd have your introduction and you'd have your three points. And then you would use a video clip to emphasize a moment. And then you want to bring people to like the essence of what you want to say. And it takes you 20 minutes to get there. And then you slow your pace down and you really make sure, can you hear the words I'm saying? Draw people in. And then right? Then what do you do? You ask for money or you do a ritual like a communion experience. And then some people would even like, who's ready to accept God? And people would raise their hands. like crazy stuff, man. And again, if it happened, it was an affirmation that God was at work.

Wow, look at this. We all had this shared experience. God is real. And so then all of a sudden, what ends up happening is almost this addiction to the idea that for me to connect with God, it has to happen in this context of church. For me to connect or be moved by God, I've got to be in community with people. Or I've got to have the right worship set list. Or I got to have the right sermon.

And you think about this idea that all you're doing is just hitting home runs every single time. And that's kind of the perspective I've had in my early youth of pastoring. I had a great mentor that really helped shape really more of a pastoral heart of something far deeper. And he said, look, man, sometimes it's just about getting on base. Like, did you get a hit? Like, don't worry about all the other stuff. Like, were you faithful to what you wanted to communicate? don't worry like if all this other stuff happened like did you get on first so it helped shape

realizing you can't have an expectation of anything any communication that you're always you know hit in home runs yeah it's base hits that win games it is right and uh you know can i share a quick story with you i heard a a pretty cool story and it's about a pastor it's about this pastor that uh he came from like this really great congregation on the east coast And he was moving all the way to the West Coast. Okay. He had gone out to the West Coast and he had, he had kind of searched it out a little bit and he met with some of the congregation there.

And everyone was super excited because he was known to give these just rock star sermon. And so they're anticipating and waiting and it's building. And finally, he comes out for his first day there. And he gives onto Sunday, the birds are singing, the weather's beautiful. And he gives just this unbelievable sermon. And people are waving their hands and they're crying and they're so excited. because he lived up to the dream of being such a great speaker and communicating with God. And he made people feel so great.

And so they're all excited for the second week. And the second week, they go and he gives the exact same sermon. And then the third week. And then the fourth week. And so about by the fifth week, some people in the church are like, no, they're a little nervous because this guy is so great. And they're like, excuse me, sir, are you aware that maybe some of the things you're saying are exactly the same as last week.

And the pastor just goes, yeah, well, congratulations. I'm glad you noticed. And they're like, why are you doing that? He goes, well, I'm going to continue to do it until you begin to practice what I'm preaching. You know, and so it just, when I heard that story, it just made me think of the power of people preaching. And it made me think of the relationship between the speaker and the crowd and how they almost become one unit. And when you talked about speaking and becoming the movement of God, it made me realize, like, I almost don't know of a better word to say than than spiritual or divine because you become one with that crowd. It's almost like you are one unit with that group of people.

And I could understand how someone who was a great speaker could begin to feel like a Godlike complex. Like they are talking to God. How could they control this crowd? How was could they possibly get people to faint? How else could they possibly give people to convert if they weren't a part or speaking with God? It's fascinating to me to think about. It is. And it's interesting because again, like anything, there's a truth to it.

You can't dismiss all of it. And so you can say it's interesting when you think about other great orders, right? When you think about some of the greatest speeches given, they carry the same thread, right? Whether it was Martin Luther King and his ability, whether it was Malcolm X, or even Hitler, right? Yeah, absolutely. The ability to move people with your words, it is creation. And I think going back to what you were talking about, you know, and John, when he opens

up the book and he's talking about this concept of, at least in my understanding, a more universal Christ than a personal Christ. Right. And that's what a lot of people I think sometimes kind of don't always understand, depending on how you read the Gospels. but a lot of the other Gospels were very physical in their understanding of Christ. John is unique and he understands this universal thing. And that's why some of the craziest things that Jesus ever said or was written down,

the carcass of his language, which I love that. Thank you so much for that. Like, God, that is such a beautiful picture because it's so true. Which remember, it is the carcass. We're reading something dead. It's not alive. Yeah, yeah. It's not alive.

But anyways, words, right? it is the creation act. We speak life. Word became flesh. But even in an origin story that is leveraged within creation is the idea that the divine spoke it into being beautiful, like this idea that your words can create. But when they're aligned and your words are connected to your truth, like your deep truth, that's ultimately how you move people.

That's why Martin Luther was able to do what he was able to. to do and Malcolm X and even other great teachers like Rom Doss or Alan Watts. You listen to these orders and they like, they got it because it's a truth that's within them. And that was a big realization for me was I never felt like I could teach to the level that I wanted to. I always felt inauthentic because I had to study it. I'd like, go do all this study and all this sermon prep and everything. And just being able to riff truth was never really available to me because I hadn't lived it yet.

And I would say I'm at an infancy of my rebirth as a pastor. I've totally been reborn in that way. And now there's a new level of speaking from a place of my truth versus someone else's truth at the end of the day. Yeah. And I think that that comes down to life experience. And you can live someone else's life forever. You can live someone's expectations forever.

You can live a lie forever. But when you begin to live your life, the words you use become authentic and they reach other people. Like that's, I've ever spoken to a young woman and she blushes or maybe a young woman speaks to you and you blush, you know, and you get goosebumps. Or when you look at your child, when I look at my daughter and I say, Sky, I notice what you did over there and I'm proud of you. You know, like I get goosebumps. Like that is communication. That is thoroughly getting through to somebody on multiple levels when you can see the emotion in their skin. when you can see their eyes well up with tears or you can see maybe the curl of their lip get a little

angry like you've hit a cord right there and like now you're communicating you're not just talking you're not speaking you're communicating i always think of a you know i always think of uh like the octopus like the the octopus can change the texture of its skin it can change in different patterns and i think that we share that a little bit i'm kind of going around a little bit but i think it's i think it's fits because we're talking about communication and the way we're we're we treat each other there. Now, you also had mentioned that you are part of the infancy of rebirth. Yes.

In a previous podcast, I heard you talking about going and listening to preachers ask some provocative questions, for example, like, what if Mary wasn't a virgin? What would that mean? And how that influenced you. Could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. So the next level deeper, right? So that's the our overarching kind of narrative.

If we go one level deeper in my journey as a pastor, I never really bought into the full narrative that I was getting sold. I never fully bought into some of the stuff that was happening in evangelicalism. I did it. I lived this kind of life, but my inside was saying, I'm a questioner. I don't know if you're familiar with like human design,

but I'm a pure manifesting generator with a, 5-1, which is the investigative heretic. So what I've realized is, like, I am heretical, like, on some level, I investigate. I'm also a Saj. So you start pulling all these, like, pieces together. You start realizing the patterns of, like, that season of my life, like my 20s, was I loved the heretic. I loved the guys that were kind of the, like, the rob bells of the world, these different pastors that were beginning to challenge the narrative of evangelicalism. And I was all about it. I was like, yes, what is this thing? There's another way. There's something that's deeper. That's where I want to go after. But it just really did it. I always felt this

rub with the most of the people that were around me because they were just pretty bought into the narrative. So I would bring things up and people like, and then afterwards it would be like, like with my ex, she'd be like, why were you asking those questions? Can't you just let it be okay? And I just was a challenger. And I realized, As I went down that path, like my first step into deconstruction of everything that I had built. And really the first step into the disorder of my life was beginning to repress and feeling like I wasn't being seen in the questions I was being asked. And so that led to then just more and more. And so, yeah, I don't know how deep down that rabbit hole you want to go.

I'm happy to go as deep as we want because it's a big part of my story. but it was, yeah, I started to question, what if Jesus, did Jesus really have to be born of a virgin? Like, what does that mean? And this idea of hell, like, what is this thing of hell? Especially, like, what we are used as like as a fear tactic? I don't know. Like, I don't know that I can fully buy into this concept. I don't know that I can fully buy into this concept that Christ and Jesus and his death on the cross is the only way to experience the eternal. The only way to experience the divine. I don't know. And at that point, it was just a lot of, I don't know, now in my journey, I have a lot more confirmation. I was like, like, you know, past self, you were asking the right questions.

Yeah. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of the way that you followed that thread. And even though it led to a lot of destruction, it brought you to the place where your future self is really, and now the present self is really content with where life is at. Man, that's so awesome. Like, that is the reason why you can help people is because you began to ask. ask those questions. And not only

is that the seed that grows into the the plant of helpfulness. I should have thought of anything better, but you know what I mean? Of service. Yeah, of service like that, but it's that ability. Now you can, because you've lived it, now you can see that questioning

in the minds of people younger than you or maybe the same age, but you can see people questioning stuff because you went through it. Sometimes I think that's the purpose of all tragedy, be it the way we grow up or someone passing away is that this tragedy happens to you so that because there's a force bigger than you. You can't even imagine that wants it to happen to you because it thinks you're strong enough to come through the other side and then help people through it.

Like once you go through tragedy, you can see it in other people. People that have been that have lost, people that have been molested, people that have broken tradition can see the minds of the younger generation getting ready to go through those things and they can help them. I think that that's one reason why you're becoming a great coach and this question of why. Like, it's tough to ask why, especially when you're surrounded by authority. Yeah. Especially when you have an ex or somebody that loves you that is like, hey, man, why are you doing that? Why are you rocking the boat, man? Just go with it. And you're like, I can't let that go. It's, it's, I can't let it go. What do you think that is that won't let it go?

Is that a, is that a need to know? Is that just the spirit in you? What, what is that? I think it is our inner intelligence, which we could call divine. We could call whatever. There's so many ways to look at it. But I believe that our inner, our true self is holding truth for us. And it is holding the secrets of the universe for us. It is the divine within. and our false self or our ego mind or our thinking mind who is really kind of run in the show,

especially in our early youth. And depending again, when you experience order disorder, I think sometimes people find their inner truths at a much younger age because they grew up in disorder. So it's like more like the veil to find it isn't as thick. For me, I had to live with a lie for four years of an affair. completely blow up my life for the ego like to that veil because I had so much order around myself I freaking nukeed that situation in my life and I'm starting making really really really unhealthy situations for myself and decisions because of that thing that had to come out and I

think every human being that is the inner call their inner desire of life is to live in alignment to their true self and we've got to do the work to understand the thinking mind versus the inner. And again, there's all sorts of tools and practices that can be in support of that. Or our lives, suffering. It will cause you to take a look at joy. And it'll cause you to take a look at like what's really going on here and realizing I'm maybe not in control as I thought I would.

You know, depending on your tradition that you look at, suffering so often is seen as something that is connected to the ego or the lower self is where the suffering is coming from, not the higher self. And that when we work to that place of living in enlightenment, not just attaining it, we start to realize I can hold space for the deep grief and suffering of the people around me. But I also don't have to fully pick it up. It's okay. It's not in my control.

And I can cry and I can grieve and I can experience deep loss. But I also am not attached, at least in my desire, this is what the work is all about, the practice. Yeah. Is to not be so attached to it that then it destroys me. because I know there's something far deeper going on. Man, that's powerful, man. I want to ask you a question here. And it's about deep loss.

And I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable. No, you can ask anything you want. Okay. Like I have had, I'm happy to share my stories with loss too. But you had a relationship and you had multiple kids and you were at this time, you said you were having an affair? Yeah. At that point in time, were you still heavy into the church and your belief?

beliefs in God or what was going on on your mindset? Like, how do you, how do you square that in your mind? Like, okay, I have this woman who I met in, and she's the love of my life and I've got these kids. But here's this woman I'm really attracted to. Like, what's going through your mind at that point in time? Yeah. Again, you were talking a little bit ago about like the why.

Like, why does this stuff happen? Yes. When the affair was exposed, everyone asked me why. How could this happen? Because it didn't line up with who. I was. Because again, just my nature, who I am, I was very trustworthy. A lot of people had me on a pedestal. And so sometimes I think the degree to which you can be held on a pedestal is also the degree to which you can go into the underworld. And there is a direct correlation

to those two things. I honestly think you can see this with the narrative of so many cisgendered males in Christian evangelicalism who've had sexual affairs, like everyone. I mean, right now, like, you start looking at the list of great men that I, like, I can't think of a single one who, other than maybe Rob Bell is, I think, still pure, and not having an affair or anything, but like, mostly everyone else fell, taken out. And it's fascinating when you start thinking about the degree to which some of that darkness, I think correlated the degree of their height. So for me, I did some work with Esther Perel in her book, The State of Affair,

and trying to ask myself the question of how. How could this happen? And in that book, she shares that sometimes affairs are attached to death. And that when something dies, it kind of becomes the breeding ground of an affair to emerge, especially if you're unhealthy in your relationships. And that death was actually being a pastor. I had shifted from working in full-time ministry, was working in the business world and was beginning to find a lot of success.

Now my communication could be used for business. And I was like, oh, I can just like talk and I don't have to try to convert people and I don't have to try to get them to believe what I believe. And I can teach them to sell and I can be more of like a business coach. And I was really good at it. And I was really growing within my organization. And I was at this tech startup. And I was finding success.

And again, I lived the ministry life. So I'd never made money. I'd always been on support. And now I'm getting like paychecks and I could afford a home. And I was doing some really good stuff. And so I was working with the church just as a lay. I'd kind of like put this idea saying, you know what? I just want to be in lay ministry.

I want to serve people. I want to be a pastor. But I don't want to do this full time. So I started working with the church and attempting this. And after about a year and a half, they asked me to be an elder, step up in leadership and stuff. And after our second elder meeting, we had a yelling match because, again, my hair tick came out and I began to challenge some of the things that I was seeing. And that was not received very well.

So they kicked me out. And this is a church community that, again, my wife and I, we were expecting our second. And we had spent a year and a half investing in these people. And then they're like, I'm sorry. Again, Jason, you were too heretical for us. You're no longer welcome here. And again, I was just challenging time management. I wasn't even challenging. anything theological. I was saying, yo, dude, as this head pastor, you're starting a business, you're doing all these other things. Like, I got a question, how involved are you here and is this sustainable? And the reality is the church broke up three months later because everything I was seeing was true. I knew it was true. And I challenged it and they didn't like it. And so I'm left without a

church. I'm left without a community. And I'm pissed. I'm tired of this thing. And so I committed to my my spouse, hey, I'll go to church, but I'm not getting involved. I'm going to sit in the back. I don't want to talk to people. I just need a time out. I've been doing this for 10 years and I'm done. So 30 Saturn return, all that energy, a death takes place. And about nine months after that, the affair started. And it was with a coworker who was seeing me in a completely different light, was seeing me getting these new successes, was seeing me shift out of the, like, I wasn't a pastor. I didn't have to be a good Christian. I didn't, like, I let a lot of that stuff begin to shed. And so for about the affair lasted for about three and a half years. I was going

to church and then I got involved because of just who I am. This is the duality, man. This is a fucked upness. Like I got involved again of like leading, but I was having an affair on the side, but I was never in an official place. It was just like, oh, yeah, we'll host a Bible study or things like that. And I just was never in again. I could because I was living a dual life. And I began to build this extreme duality in myself. So I don't know. Does that make sense? Like kind of, I did it. Huge. Okay. Thank you. Hey, first off, thanks for sharing them. And that's, that's, I think, I think sharing the parts in life that are challenging helps a lot of people look at themselves and maybe not judge themselves so harshly and understand that we're all human and where we come from.

And it's totally, it is, it answers the question unbelievable. And I think it gets us back to the rebirth. Like you lived a whole life and now it's like you're living a whole new life. Have you ever heard the, it's like a whirlpool. Have you ever seen a whirlpool before? Yeah. So in that whirlpool, you have a form of water. The water comes in and it goes around and then it goes out.

But the whirlpool stays there. But the water is always changing in that whirlpool. So too are we always changing. if we're living and dying, but the form of us stays here. The George Monty stays here. The Jason Sheffield stays there, but he's got all new water flowing in them and flowing out of them. And so in some ways, I almost think it's more amazing when people don't change or they don't give the appearance of change. Or maybe they change inside or maybe because they're dying inside.

They don't allow themselves to change. So I really appreciate you sharing that. That's amazing. And I think for me it was that the last one that I was. dying inside and I didn't let myself change. Yeah. And the change of pastor. And because I'd stop the flow of the world pool, whatever that is, I fully cut myself off.

Then it began the breeding grounds for something far darker. And I think it began the greeting grounds of like I couldn't connect with my spouse anymore over these things. And we began to be on opposite pages and the threat of intimacy of again having and it like, it was a mess, man. Like I made a real mess in my life. I had a third child in the midst of the affair. Like it was something that was just so dark. And so I was numb to life in many ways.

I was experiencing it. But I was so shut off. And the world pool wasn't flowing. And the reality is, again, that capacity of darkness that I think is maybe similar to how much water you can hold before the shit blows. It will blow. Because here's the only thing, like three and a half years in, a week before everything was exposed. This would have been December of 2018. I was on a run and I was

listening to, do you remember the book of The Shack? Like that really, it was like a book that came out years ago. It was this guy's experience with God and it was somewhat controversial, but it was like a really big book in the Christian world. And the author had an affair. And he was telling this story about where the book of the shack came out of and his deep, like, sin and deep living a double life and all this. And I remember listening to it and being like, no way my stuff will ever be exposed. I will take this to my grave. I'm not going to let happen what he let happen.

I'm going to keep this going. And a week and a half later, everything was exposed. The whirlpool, it just, it burst. Yeah, it had to flow. It's so interesting how, you know, you can look at baptism and say this person is born again, but not until tragedy and your life blows up. Are you really born again? I think that that is a rite of passage, call it a baptism or whatever you want.

But especially for men, I think you have to die. You have to fight your dad in some way and die to the old you so that you can't become the new you. And it's sad, but it's necessary. My favorite saying, and I think it's a Dicean saying from the ancient Greek. It has kind of been termed the secret of the universe, but it's that, if you die before you die, when you die, you won't die. I like that. I've never heard it before.

Right? So if you die before you die, when you die, you won't die. And this saying is considered to be truly the secret of the universe. And I can say through my experiences that it's true. It rings so true for me in many ways. And I just did a podcast. So my partner and I have a podcast called Telling Secrets. And we just share our stories.

Like, what are we doing? What are we going? on in life. We've been together now for two years. We've got a pretty wild story of like both of us coming out of our stuff and me coming out of my experiences and coming into this relationship. And we just did a podcast called Rebirth is my kink. And I'm like, it's it. Like that is my kink. Like it is the thing I like, it is so taboo and I fucking love it. Like this idea that we just go through rebirth after rebirth after rebirth. And it's this ongoing path of. our our carmic energy in this world. Again, I don't know about the afterlife. I don't know about

what that shit looks like. If we come back as something else, I think we get too attached to it, it distracts us from the beauty of the eternity of now, but you do reincarnate in this life. That is the concept of rebirth. You do elevate yourself. You might be living on the plane of a fucking fly in this world of thinking things are this way. And if you die, you can come back as a more higher intelligence. And that intelligence is the path that we're on of constantly going through the cycle, the spiral upwards towards enlightenment. Like, that's the shit, man. That's what I know so true. Like, that's my sermon these days. That's what I'm preaching. That's a pretty psychedelic train of thought right there, my friend. Like now, now, see, I wanted, I wanted to get down the

foundation of the old Jason or the, maybe, maybe the shell of Jason or the, the first link in the snail shell, you know, as you go through life like that. Yep. And so enter this idea of the psychedelic. The person you talked about seems like not, it's definitely not the person I'm talking to now. But I could, because you went so deep into that, I could see a version of you. So how do you go from this old Jason? Where does the first psychedelic experience come into play?

And how does that come about? Yeah. So about a year after. everything went down and the divorce process like got through the divorce process got back to like beginning to like okay how am I going to build my life like I'm committed to my children I'm not like I know that like I'm committed to co-parenting got to figure this stuff out I tried to get into a relationship it was weird and then I got all that really I was like okay I'm not ready for connection with other people right now I was like I need some therapy I need to go find someone to do

work with, but I couldn't find anyone in Colorado. I was so far away from anything Christian. And in this town is very, like, has a lot of, a lot of like Christian therapists and counselors. And I found this guy, I'd been doing a lot of work with the Enneagram. And the Enneagram is one of my favorite tools for personal development and understanding of the shadow. And it's been, it's been a big part of my journey. Even before all this happened, I was really in using that as a tool. So basically I found a therapist that is my same enneagram type, which is a type three for anyone that's familiar with it. There's nine types. And I just kind of connected with this guy. I was like, all right, he can understand because of like, again, my energy as a type three, this capacity for being

a chameleon or wearing multiple masks. Like he'd maybe help, he'd be able to understand me a little bit faster than other people that maybe don't quite get it in the same way. And so I'd have an hour and a half to meet this guy every other week. And it began to really uncover my heart. And he really began to uncover for me how it happened. And he gave me tools like understanding that everybody looks at a divorce or an affair as the event, but they don't look at all the things that led up to it. He's like, you had a heart attack. And everybody wants to ask you, how did the heart attack happen? What happened? How could you have had a heart attack? And the reality is there's probably 20 years of treating your body a very specific way or actions that you took that led to that heart attack.

Nobody looks at the 20 years. They just look at the heart attack. And he's like, you've got to stop focusing on the heart attack and start looking at what led there. So that really started helping me do that deeper inner work. And during that time, COVID hit. So it was like right at the time of COVID, March of 2020. I love this guy. He still was like, hey, let's be safe, but I'm willing to meet in person if you are.

Like we did a couple of Zoom meetings, but as things kind of start. it opened up. So I drive to Denver and that hour and a half drive turned into 45 minutes. It took off half the time. I was like, this is the best. COVID can last as long as possible. And so, so we're still meeting. And during that time, I read Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, and started to begin to awaken to the narrative that I've been sold around drugs and began to awaken to the propaganda and that there was this really deep, beautiful medicine that existed. And then other thinkers that I really enjoyed that even in some of the Christian space,

these guys that had gone through deconstruction were talking about experiences with psilocybin. And they were talking about their journeys. And there was something in me that began to be like, okay, like, curious about this. What is this about? And then I even asked my therapist. I was like, hey, do you know anything about this? And he was like, I can't say anything. Like, you want to do it great.

If not, whatever. But as your therapist, like, you know, I was like, okay. job. You did a good job being a therapist. And someone told me in my process was, if you really want to do some of the deeper work with this medicine, you need to be able to meditate before you step into that space. Like if you can't sit with your mind for 20 minutes and you're breathing, and then, you know, like your journeys are going to probably be a little bit harder because where do you go? Like, you're going into the mind and you're there for a while. So you better get comfortable. And so I started meditating and that became a beautiful practice and some spiritual kind of awakening started to come.

I'd never fully let go of spirituality. I'd never got to the place of being an atheist, but I definitely got to the place of like, fuck Christianity. Like I'm over this. Like I want nothing to do with it. I'm ready to go to the way of the Zen. I'm ready to go to Buddha. These things really resonate with me. And so I was continuing to learn, but it was just for my own like inner work.

So I kind of got to this place where I was like, all right, universe, like, whenever it's time, I want, like, I'm ready to step into this, but you're going to have to bring it to me. Because again, I'm in Colorado Springs. Like, I'm in a space where there's this, I have no connection to this stuff. No one in my world is thinking about these things. And then the opportunity came. And it was beautiful. And it was a, I think my first experience was maybe a gram and a half, not very deep. And it was, but it was, it was transformative. It was something awoke in me.

And I was, it was connecting. I felt, yeah, so many things. And I didn't even have any language for it. Right. At this point, I didn't begin doing really any of the work that I've been doing in the past year. So, yeah, that was the first experience. And that then just kind of continued to go deeper.

Man, it's so, I always love to hear that story of the first experience. because there is, in my own mind, I keep like a running, I try to keep a running account of stories and similarities that happens. And one thing that I have found that people always talk about is language. And we spoke about that earlier. I think that on some level, language fails. Yes. Because there's no words to explain what's happening.

But you can feel it and you can see it and you can understand it, but there's no linguistic pathway to tell someone else about it. You can use all these words and all these metaphors and try to explain all these things, but no one can thoroughly understand what it is until they go through it. And then now we're back to almost a religious connotation. We're back to an experience. We're back to this idea of mysticism and the ritual and going through a shared experience together. And all of a sudden I start thinking about a lusus and this time.

And once you go through a first experience, I believe that you can see the world of religion differently. Because you've experienced God. You've experienced the unknowable mystery that resides in all of us, the Promethean flame that is burning. And so one of one thing it makes me think about is this idea of the Trinity. And when you think about the Trinity, you think of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But I think after experimenting with psychedelics, you begin to come familiar with a different Trinity, which is the body, the soul, and the spirit, which might be the same thing there. Yes. Yes.

Would you think that's kind of the same thing? Oh, 100%. I think the idea that the Trinity is a thing that isn't connected to the other things is the problem of like forcing the separation. Like, it's, yeah, the beauty of the Trinity, the dance, the three, we see it everywhere, right? You see it down to the atom, like electron, neutron, proton, if I remember, and what happens when we split these things apart, we, we destruction of unknown degree takes place. Like, the three is the Trinity. It is everywhere.

And it's false to attach the idea of like a father, a son, and a spirit as like the, again, language breaks down. Yes. cannot use language to describe the mystical. And that's why I think these experiences, and it can happen through meditation, it can happen through psychedelics, can happen through all these practices. And the goal is to get us out of the language mind and into the intellect of the body, where now words begin to break down.

And we are in such a physical world right now, especially what we've been experiencing over the last 500 years, 1,000 years, right? It's just been, we've been driven more and more into the physical and the mystical has been removed. And so everything has come through language and the thinking mind and people are beginning to awaken back up to their bodies. That is the next movement of spirituality is, and that is the movement that has been going on and that has been the practice.

But getting out of the words and getting into the experience is the path that I think is so important to begin to awaken that like, yes, Trinity, yes, three and one. Yes, this mysticism. Yes. I don't know how to describe it. Yes, I see it everywhere around me. Like, yes. So.

That's awesome. I see the, you know, those who have eyes to see will see and those who have ears to hear. Like I can see this transition of awakening happening. And I'm one of millions of people that probably see it. You yourself see it. And especially coming from the church, you know, you can see this evolving idea. of Christianity, maybe getting back to its roots, maybe getting back to the idea of the mystical, maybe this hard cell of straightforward Christianity following this one path, maybe those rails

are slowly coming off because I'm beginning to see retreats for Christians to take psilocybin or experiment with ketamine and have their own experience with God in a first person format. And I think you're going to see so much growth. I think you're seeing this explosion of spirituality. Yeah. You know, I've, I see the, I got a good friend who calls himself a judist. He was born a Jew, but he's now more of a Buddhist. I'm a Jewist, you know.

And you're seeing this influence of the east meets the west. And it's, I think of it like a, you know, I think of it like a corpus callosum. In our brain, we have the, the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere, right? and you look at the left, the eastern idea of religion and the Western idea of religion. And now we're coming together to form a more holistic religion. And I think that that is where we came from. I think that that's the idea that maybe the pantheon was about. And I think that it's a way better way to live your life accepting God, whatever you call it,

and accepting yourself, when you can see yourself from different points of view. And I think the religions have a way of showing that to you. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, like they're like I've been again, I've been really intrigued by Jesus and I've had like over the last nine months, this like reawakening to actually engage in the texts in a way that I'd never had before. And I was reading, you know, Jesus is a famous sermon on the Mount, Matthew five, where he delivers the beatitudes, right? And it's these things that turned everything upside down is probably one of the more famous things that Christians love to refer to. And one of those. And one of those. quote unquote beatitudes, a series of blessings, right? You're blessed when. And again, when we think blessed, sometimes I've been played this idea of like of this concept of manifesting. You are manifesting win. If you want to be in tune with the kingdom of God and you want to live in this higher vibration, you will be blessed and you will manifest. But there are keys, there are secrets. And I think sometimes that's what Jesus was giving his, because the ceremony of the Mount was not

delivered to the large crowds is actually delivered to his following. his apprentices. There's a very select group of people that he kind of peeled the curtain back. And all Matthew did was just give us a carcass of what that curtain was. That's it. We got to remember that. It's just a carcass. But it is a carcass.

It does point to something far deeper. And we can leverage that carcass to our experience to actually have the truth and revealed within us. So anyways, one of these blessings is, blessed are you when you get your inner world, your head and your heart aligned because then you will see God in the outside world. Fascinating. How often do we not think like, oh, yeah, God's not, like,

we don't see this divine energy. We don't see this because this is misaligned. So if you're not seeing it on the outside, whatever it is for you, I don't care. It does not need to be attached to anything. But if you're not seeing it on the outside world, you've got to start looking at like, why, what's going on in my head and my heart?

And again, I love that you said the idea of the awakening of the spirit, spirit, soul, and body. Not the mind. And this is what I think a lot of people think is they think it's actually the mind, the body, and the soul is the Trinity. But it's the same way that it's the Christians think that the Trinity is the God, the God, the God, the God, the Holy Spirit has been removed. Spirit's weird.

We don't do Spirit. We do the Word of God. Same thinking. Yeah. Right? If the mind attaches to the Word of God, but that is not what we're actually designed to be. We're designed to be spirit, connected to divine. soul our own inner authority of how it connects with that in this physical world that's it man that's

the secret i love that yeah i want to i want to read to you a quick little passage here that i wrote and it's uh dude there's a for anybody that's watching there's an old book it's called uh trilogs at the edge of the west okay and it's it's ralph abram terence mckenna and rupert sheldrake and it's just that sounds like a good time right there man i it's just it's just it's mind-blowing. And so this is a passage from a, they're talking about different entities and he's talking about the Trinity here. And this is Ralph Abram and he says, okay. I'd like to focus on what you said about the suppression of the irrational by science and the Trinity of Christianity. Again, he's talking about the suppression of the irrational. This came from the Neo-Platonic tradition.

I don't mean the Trinity of Father's Son and Holy Ghost, but the Trinity of body, soul, and spirit. body is essentially Gaia of the Orphic Trinity. It is ordinary reality, the physical universe of matter and energy. The soul is the over-soul, our world soul, the parent of the individual souls that inhibit us. The spirit is a kind of elastic medium between body and soul, like the logos or the morphogenic feel. And I always come back to this point of spirit and logos. Like I think that the spirit allow I think there's a sort of intelligence in the spirit that we can communicate with. And sometimes I feel, you know, on a psychedelic trip, maybe that is the intelligence in which we are in communication with is the spirit. Yeah.

You know, and it's, again, words kind of fail. So that that word can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I think there is an inherent intelligence there that reveals things to. to us. It's not so much we're going out and learning things, but it's that things are being revealed to us by the spirit. And I, it just, I don't have a whole lot of people to talk to this about Jason. So I appreciate you listening. I love it. So try this on because the way I thought about how the psychedelic experience begins to look is if we think about those same things, we think about them as planes, right? Yes. So again, so we have the physical plane,

which is what we, and it's what we observed world. And then we move up to the soul plane, which is, again, sometimes where the ego sits and it's our inner selves, it's our soul. And then encompassing that is the spirit world, right, is on that top realm. Yeah. And basically this ancient medicine technology, whatever you want to call it, that comes from the earth that holds all intelligence. Basically, when we take it in jet, it's like the rocket ship that takes us from the physical to the spirit. It's just like, boom, you're now in the spirit realm and it will be revealed to you, right? it is a revealing. It's showing you that you actually hold all three within you. You are,

because again, how good, how physical does it, is, is it on the spirit, like on the second other trip, right? Like, depending on the medicine that you're working with, you feel amazing, right? Extasy. Strawberries have never felt tasted better. Like, pineapple is the best shit you could ever have. Like, I've like literally like made love to papaya before, right? So, so the physical is enhanced. We can see the capacity. But also, some, times a physical is enhanced to such a level that it's really difficult and you're purging, right? Or it's taking you to really deep and hard physical places. And that's been some journeys that I've been on recently, like the physicality of it. It's hard and it's difficult.

But then there's also then you step into the spirit realm and all of a sudden you are connected. And I think that's why so often people can feel the oneness of all things. Talk about, you know, the consistent themes and journeys. Often people, people will talk about this idea that we're all connected. I am, I saw God on the outside. Yeah. Because I was aligned in this really beautiful way. And these medicines can be a tool to take us there. And then we begin to practice of bringing it back to this plane. And we begin to say, oh, yeah, it's always there. Like, it's always there. And I think the Christ, if we can look at it from the personhood of Jesus, is almost the example of spirit coming down into the physical form, right?

The word was made flesh. The word of spirit was now indeweled through a human being. And that human being came to bring us life in some beautiful ways. And the Buddha and others, Christ's consciousness, if we can think about it from that perspective, show up on this plane. And they're like, hey, here's some intelligence for you. And I'm going to help be a guidepost for what this journey can be like. But then the physical world attaches religion to it.

And we get all these things that kind of come out. of it and all of a sudden its original intent was lost and we get attached to it from just the physical forgetting soul and spirit so i don't know does that does that resonate yeah dude i'm with you i i love it i it makes me wonder sometimes if it's i can see why people in positions of authority find it so dangerous it's so it just it destroys boundaries yeah and you know that can be a problem I mean, I love psychedelics, and I've had some very, very difficult times on them, and I've had some very great times on them. And sometimes I think the difficult times might even be the better times because you learn so much.

But it changes boundaries. And boundaries are there for a reason sometimes. You know what I mean? Like we need boundaries. And if you have the majority of people that are choosing to ignore boundaries, you know, how do you have history? How do you have this idea of cohesion? How do you have this idea of a structured society where the ruling class stays the ruling class? How do you convince these people that they should work their entire lives?

And then when they die, things will be better. You know, like, you know, so I could see why psychedelics would be taken out of the populace. And it would be it would be either co-opted or reported. placed with a rigid idea of religion or rigid idea of authority. And this authority overtakes the spirit that you can participate in any time you want. I get that part right there. But I think we've outgrown it. I think the same way that we were speaking earlier where a young man must leave his family.

A young man must fight his father. A young man must stop leading with passion and begin leading by it with experience. I think that this is the same things that. the psychedelics are showing. Maybe it's because of our age. Maybe we are at this age where we are transitioning. But I think that, yeah, what do you think about that so far? No, I agree 100%.

I think, again, depending on what streams you pay attention to, what's interesting is I feel like there is a sense of a convergence that multiple streams are starting to say the same thing. And that's what's really interesting to kind of, whatever, age we're in, whatever timeline is going on right now, you're getting,

you're getting this consistency that it probably isn't going to be held for much longer. Yeah. The systems are, because I think you can't do that. You can't take people out of experience. Yes.

And you can't, like, we, if we truly are connected to Earth and we are Gaia, I love that perspective of the physical body being connected to her and that energy. at some point, Gaya's going to call us home.

And she's going to say, you can't, you can't keep taking your vibrational energy to support this structure because originally that vibrational energy is meant to support the structure of the earth. And you're starting to see frequent, and again, it's far out there stuff, but like, enough frequency shift begins to happen. And we're so upholding these structures. And these structures are going to begin to fall. You know, and I think your first one that we're going to see really take a big nose dive

is the monarchy. With the death of the queen, like that shit is about to fall. I don't know what it's going to look like, but people don't care about the king anymore. And people are suspicious about the monarchy. And they're trying to like force this idea like 10 days of mourning. They're like, give us our football back.

We don't want to mourn the queen. She's like, we don't care anymore. That's going to be a sign of one of the bigger systems that had a lot of energy that's been upheld for centuries. It's going to fall. And people don't care anymore. They're going to bring back that energy to themselves.

And I think what we see happening with the movement of psychedelics and the third wave and the Renaissance that's happening right now, I honestly believe one of the areas that I'm a little concerned about at times is the way that the medical community is co-opting it. And again, is it beautiful for depression and PTSD? 100%. I fully believe in that. And I've been through the integration coaching to support people that are going through those experiences.

is my bigger concern though is they're going to say it's only for those people. It's only for the people that have, you know, depression or anxiety. And it's not as a tool for spirituality. And it's not for a tool of connecting with divine. And they're going to try to bring, they're going to take the current modalities of healing and they're going to try to make psychedelics fit within it. It's more of that bigger concerns.

I don't know. Like, I don't know where it's going to lead. But it's the one thing that I'm like, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. Okay. I want to speak to that. a little bit. I look at it like this. So if you look at the 60s, like think about the world of psychedelics and the world we live in as like a mushroom trip. Yeah, like a big dose. And you like it

comes in waves, right? Like the first, like you kind of feel like, oh, man, I'm getting a little tingling right here. I better, you better smoke my first joint or whatever people do with their, with their ritual, right? I'm going to come coming up or I need to lay down, right, put on my meat, whatever you do. So the first wave kind of hit you and you're like, oh, it's going to be a strong one, you know, And then you kind of come back and like, ah, maybe not. And then all of a sudden the second wave hits. And then the third wave.

And then pretty soon you're like, boom, you're late. You're glued down to your bed or you're staring up at the sky or wherever your spot is. I think one of the first, maybe the second or third wave might have been the 60s. And they were able to come in and suppress it. Get rid of this. Hey, you know, Rick Strassman is the only guy that can do DMT. Right. Shutting everybody else down.

All you weirdos in Millbrook and Leary, get these guys out of here. And they thought they shut it down. And if you look at history, people often try and use the same strategy for the last revolt. Like the same way the generals fight the last war. So too does authority try to set stuff down the wrong way. But you know what I mean? So here comes this second wave, but just like a mushroom trip, guess what? We're getting ready to peak.

There's no way you're shutting this one down. You might, you may have think you stem the tide, but really it was just a come up. You didn't stem anything. You just thought that you did. So here comes this next wave. The same way the tide moves up, come up on the beach and goes back down. I believe that this idea of our changing world by,

and the monarchy is on its way out. You can see the death of the queen as a symbol. You can see the way in which people no longer care about monarchy. Or better yet, the way people start. One thing I think about the trend, like they're trying to have this quick transition because, you know, you have people in Canada and people in Australia, like, wait, why don't we have a queen again?

Wait, why don't we have this? What does this person do? Like this absentee landlord? And these are the places that have locked down the tithest. The places that are the most afraid, the places that are the most ready to fracture are the people locking down the hardest. And that's the same thing in a mushroom trip. The thing you're worried about, like, yeah, guess what? You better be worried about that.

Because if you went into this trip with a, I don't want to think about this thing, you're going to think about that thing. It's coming for you. And so when you look at the world. that we live in as a psychedelic trip. I think you can draw a lot of parallels right there. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Thank you.

I think everyone just needs a mega dose. And like they just need. It's going to be scary for some people. It's going to be real scary. It's going to be real scary. And it'll be interesting to see like in those waves of like the process. Because I'll tell you like I did. I had an experience of.

a mega dose. Yeah. And I went real deep. Let's hear about it. Tell me about it. I want to hear about it from front and back. So I got. So yeah,

so there's kind of some precursor like maybe like the last nine months of what my journey has looked like. It's really been building in many ways. So I did like my first like ego death experience at the end of last year. You know, traditional heroes dose and kind of going through that process. And it was it was difficult and it was hard. And it really I felt like for the first time got to the place where I was ready kind of

for that ego, ego death. Yeah. And that had woken up the spiritual, that reconnected me to God, that re-broke out the pastor and really kind of brought me back to this place where I was like, okay, like, I got to start leaning into me. It was a difficult time in life, difficult time of career. And I've just been on this journey of like, what is this? And I was getting certified as an integration coach.

And I was like, okay, I got to have a deeper experience. So I did that. But over the last several months, there's been multiple experiences, have continued to really doing exploring, have really decided to kind of begin to practice with some of this. And those experiences all led to wanting to drive to having a Bufo experience and wanting to, it was five MEO. It was not something I had done with, you know, five MEO DMT. And I really wanted to kind of see what that side of things had looked like. It had largely just been practicing with psilocybin. So it was in Mexico.

and this was only about a month ago and got connected with a beautiful medicine man. And he guided me through kind of my first, you know, Bufo experience. And that was, you know, just chaotic. I mean, that was like blending with frequency. It was so different than anything I'd ever experienced with psilocybin or any other kind of stuff that I'd done. It was like almost feeling like I was, I didn't black out, but I wasn't on this plane. I was in a completely different space.

and it was so intense that it led to a purge that took place. And the purge felt like Neo coming out of the pod. And when the thing comes out of his mouth, I felt like I was reborn. Like I had this experience. And it was so deep and physical. It wasn't in the mind. I don't have any visions.

I didn't have any, any that was like a cellular level. I was awoken. Really, really interesting. Wow. So that led actually to then this monsoon hit. and the rain came down and I walked out in the rain and was baptized. I'd even think about like, do I want to back, like in my journey? I was like, do I want to experience a baptism or not?

And what would that look like? And as it's raining and I'm laying in the grass, like in the form of the crucifix, it's just like how I was laying. And the medicine man comes out and he goes, you are baptized into your new life. You are born again. And I was just like, you know, this is deeply, deeply transformative. And I brought to him, I said, hey, you know, one of the things I've been researching and curious about is kind of a mega dose of

psilocybin. And we're talking like 20, 30 grams, like wanting to go really, really deep. And this event I've had on my radar, this is this something you feel like would be appropriate. And he's like, yes, you need to do this in the next as soon as you can. I was like, okay, all right. So two weeks later, 24 was my number. It's what I landed on as what I felt spiritual, all these different synchronicities for me. I was like, all right, 24's is what I'm going to do. And it was, so you talk about those waves.

28 hours. The waves were so intense. You were launched instantly. I mean, I laid down for like within about 10 minutes I was in it. And that led me to a physical death. It led me to probably one of the hardest experiences that I've ever had of thinking, I don't know how to take the next breath. And my partner, I was safe.

I had, you know, I had people around me. You know, my rebirth dula. And I had to really work with how do you take the next breath? And what if you don't take the next breath? And I literally sat at the gates of death. And I literally thought I was going to die. It was the scariest, most intense feeling that I've had in my life. There was some purging that kind of began to happen.

And it just began like just worked. working with, okay, how. And then all other reasons why I shouldn't take the next breath. There was a lot of fear that I hadn't drunk enough water or I hadn't eaten the right foods. And there's like this vision of this woman at the grocery store and she was like judging me because of what I was putting in my cart. And it was like, that's going to kill you. And I thought like all these choices that I made were going to kill me and that my body was just going to stop working. And what if it did stop working? And what if my heart did just stop? And it literally was that intense feeling that death is coming and death is coming for all of us.

And what happens when we die? And man, it was so, so scary. And my, you know, it was like, I kind of kept working with it. And then there was this moment of surrender. And there was this moment of like, it would be okay. It would be okay if I died. like the world will continue. It would be okay.

And I would be okay. And the people around me would be okay. It would be hard, but they would be okay. They don't need me at the end of the day. And it felt like this thing that I would imagine of what it's like to come to the edge of death and to then surrender to realize that the world will go on without you. And it will be okay, ultimately. And once I found that and I found that like it would be okay,

I then began to put myself a little bit back together. And I began to feel like it was that sense of rebirth of like literally going through the canal. You live in a world of the womb. You live in the world of connection. All of your food comes from a different source. You don't breathe oxygen. You live in a completely different universe. And when you come through that canal, you go through a death.

You're no longer connected. You no longer are living in the fluid. You are now living in a physical world. You now have to breathe. And you do. you breathe. Life goes on. And it was this deep realization that life goes on. Life supports life. There will be life on the other end. And then it was this deep. So then it was like I then was connected to the divine. And I had this deeply, deeply spiritual experience of sitting with the weight of the death of Christ.

And really what that means on some levels, this idea that divinity, divine source would would actually go through the essence of death so that we don't have to. And that you see it, right? You see the way like Kali, like the God of wrath and Hinduism and death, like God does deal with death and death does come. We don't like that idea often. But then you see like how Shiva lays at the feet of Kali to stop the wrath. And in the same way we can see that in the Christ, like laying at the feet of saying death doesn't have to exist in this reality. Death doesn't have to be in this universe. Death isn't part of what it means to be a divine source. So I'll handle that for you. So you won't ever have to. Oh. So I was like, it was a transformational experience, man. Like it, it was something I would never recommend for anyone.

You have to feel 100% called to that shit. You have to feel like you're doing the work. You're prepared for that. But I mean, it was, it was, you know, Kalindi, I think is how you say his name. Yeah. Yeah. He taught, he was the first one that turned me on to this idea. of like the magic of the mushrooms, not the medicine, but the magic. I was like, that's where I want to go find. I want to find the magic. And man, did I find the magic? Wow.

So. 24. Why do you just do the whole ounce, man? You need four more grams. You know what I mean? God damn it. Four more grams. Maybe that'll be next time.

I don't know. I don't know if that was a one and done situation. I'm like, I'll be back. There's no way. But I'll, I think once you've done that, yeah, once you've done that amount, I think that I think that you, but you're right. Like that, that is, that could, that could be considered incredibly irresponsible if you didn't do everything right.

Like you had somebody there. You were in a good spot. You had known about it. You're no stranger to psychedelics. Yes. You've covered all the bases. You know, you've done the work on yourself. You've been through experiences.

So I think it's important to point that out. 100%. Once we point that out, wow, what an awesome experience. And I think that it is those experiences that make you, that allow you to become someone who can work with other people. I think that if you're going to call yourself an integration specialist, if you're going to say that, then you should have had experience like that. I commend you 100%. And I think that those types of doses are where the magic is. And again, they're not for everybody. but if you can go through that,

then I think that then you are ordained to help people. The same way a minister should go through certain trainings. So too should you as someone who's a coach go through those experiences. You know, and it's, it gets back to,

if you just look at the history of it, like if you, I was reading about some different tribes in South America where the shaman would, if someone had it, if someone was sick, the shaman would take the medicine and he would help learn how to fix them.

He would help figure out who stole the chicken or he would figure out who is why they're suffering. And even to this day, if I take psychedelics, I find myself doing a lot of thinking about people in my life that I care about and the problems they have. And I've come up with a lot of different insights that have been helpful for them, you know. And I think that there's something to be said there. I want to ask you this on the topic of high doses. I've learned that the standard McKenna dose, heroic dose of like five grams, anywhere between, it seems to me there's a, there is a sloppy resonance or a incoherent area between like five and ten grams where it's very difficult to bring stuff back.

You know, I think around, you know, anywhere between one, between one and four is a really good thinking dose where you could solve a lot of problems and stay somewhat coherent. But I think once you start getting up around 5 to 10, you go to this spot where there's no real view. Like you see things, but you can't really bring it back. What I have learned at the higher doses, the highest I've ever gone is 18. But I've seen at like 16 and 18, I've found almost like a second peak, almost like a like an area of clarity. And I'm wondering if at the high doses, you have found a similar type of clarity. Or do you even, have you found some ranges to be incoherent and some to be more?

Or is it maybe the specific medicine? It's interesting because actually I think I've had a little bit of a different experience. Well, I think, again, it depends on what type of experience you're driving to, right? Your intentions and whatnot. I've kind of found that the dosages between like one and five, you're not really piercing the veal of the mushroom. So those experiences, those are fun. You're heightened.

like you feel good, you might get some visualizations. Right. And again, I think it's a lot about what you're looking for from the work and what you want out of medicine. So, you know, yeah, one to four, like, you're just kind of vibe in. You're having a good time. You can probably be around people. It's a good dosage to not feel like you're stepping into like this other plane. Then for me, I feel like that kind of five to ten, again, you're dealing more with that, like,

thinking mind there. And I think that's where you start to break down ego more. And you have more like, and that's where it feels like the clarity maybe isn't quite there because you're trying to pierce the ego in some way. And there's, there's a lot that can come from that. And depending on where you're at in your inner work and where how inflamed your ego might be or, you know, I think that's probably correlated to how difficult that is because it's showing you like, hey, this is a situation. You need to be thinking about this. You got to do the inner work. Like what's going on? And it can kind of be hard and not feel like there's a lot of clarity.

And then, yeah, I feel like, because I did to, in preparation, I did a 14 gram trip. and that felt very physical. It was difficult. It didn't feel like the death, but it was a very, like, chaotic experience at times. And the drop-in was, like, really an awakening to all the things that are going on. And it was, it was harder on some levels. But then the clarity on the other end was far higher. There was a lot more, like, insight and a lot more of, like, awakening of the soul.

And then with the height, like, this one, it was like, yeah, that was the magic. It was like, ah, here's an awakening. and very clear. Yes. I've been able to articulate the things that I learned very, very clear of like my understanding

that I felt like I got like the downloads. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. It was like the idea was like the mycelium is really connected to source and tree and when you look at the beautiful network of mushrooms,

it was like at that level I felt like I found the edge where the mycelium ends and the tree begins and where the source was at. And it was like, that's where I was hanging out. I wasn't down here.

I was like, right there with source. And it was, it was deeply spiritual. But it's interesting. I'm curious what you think about this. Like, yeah,

I've not had any, like, experiences with entities. I've never seen, like, any visualization of aliens or space or, like, any of that stuff.

But I've also not had a lot of interest in those things. Those things have never really spoken to me. I've never found spirit or divinity in them. So they don't really come to me. And I'm really curious, like, when I hear people have stories of entities

or are gauging other types of, consciousness, that that's part of also their experience. So have you had that? Have you felt like you've had experiences with entities and those types of experiences? I have. The first time I felt was like the first time is when I heard voices. And I had taken, you know, I'm a, some things that have tried are like the four ACO DMT, which you can get out of Canada. Like if I suggest, first off, You shouldn't do anything illegal for people who are listening to this. 100%. But if you find yourself in Canada and you were going to experiment with some things,

I believe that four ACODMT is psilocybin that's made in a lab. And it's an analog. Yeah. It's made in a lab, but it's very pure. Yeah. And so I had taken 70 milligrams and it hit me fast. And I was like, oh, man. And that was the first time I had heard a voice.

And it scared the hell out of me because I was like, I'm by myself and I'm like, dude, who's that? Who's that? You know, and then I'm like, oh my God, I'm talking to myself. Does anyone listen to me? I'm freaking out, you know, because I heard this voice. And what I heard was, like, I had asked myself this. I had this internal dialogue because I went in with intention.

And I was like, I want to thoroughly understand more about my own nature. I want to know what is happening around me. I want to know the reasons. why I feel things are being revealed to me. I want to know why I feel so alone, but I feel, you know, I had all these questions that I written down to my journal. And so the voice I heard was like,

are you sure you want to know? And I'm like, what the hell? What? And then I was like, no, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. And the voice is like too late, get ready, you know? And I was like, oh, I was scared. And so after that, like I got scared.

Like, I didn't really hear that voice anymore. The voice went away. And maybe that was me suppressing it or, maybe it was just an audio hallucination, which I've heard people talk about quite a bit. But it was really scary. The rest of the trip went pretty well. And I remember seeing just flashes of my life go through me and different traumas that happened to me and why they happened to me. And I was molested when I was younger.

So part of my, you know, I had taken that into my adulthood and never really thoroughly integrated that into my life. So, you know, part of my psychedelic. experience, I think, is integrating the problems that you have walled off in your mind. Maybe that wall comes down. And in this particular time, it was like, oh, I went through this whole understanding of, wow, here's what happened to you. And here's why you feel the way you do. Here's why, here's how the person that molested you feels.

How do you think about that? Do you think you feel bad? Think about how they feel. Here's all the things that you've ever said. Here's all the things that they have said. Here is why they walk with their shoulder drooped on one side. Like, you know, I just had all this crazy information about like, oh, man, that person's carrying so much weight. And I remember coming out of it with a whole other perspective and having no longer feeling guilty about me, but feeling more bad for that person.

I should call that person and be like, God damn, are you okay? You know what I mean? Like, I felt bad for them. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy. But it's, on some level, I feel like it also gave me this incredible power to see other people in that same situation. And if I can go off on a quick tangent before I talk about some entities, it gets back to the idea of crisis and you being able to see people going through a crisis that you've went through. And I think the psychedelics, at least for me, have helped me notice that not only in myself, but in other people.

And I remember a while back talking to this, there was a young, lady at my daughter's school. And I could always tell, like, there was, she would talk about her family. And I'm like, oh, you know, how's your family? Oh, she's like, I don't want to talk to them. And it was all these little hints of stuff that like I had gone. I'm like, oh, I know that feeling. Oh, you don't talk to them?

You don't know, she goes, I don't even, I don't even see them. And I'm like, oh, clearly something happened to you. Yeah. You know, and then we got to this point where her and I would always kind of be talking to each other because our kids were always playing together. And I says, you know, what? Can I tell you something? And she's like, what?

I'm like, you know those things that happened to you? and she just looked at me all crazy and I'm like, you know what's weird is that there's really wealthy kids whose parents pay tons of money for them to go to school to learn about the things

that you got to learn about for free. You ever think about it like that? And she just like, she started laughing, she got to started crying. She's like, I never thought about it like that. I'm like, yeah,

dude, there's kids that go to Ivy League schools to learn how to become counselors and those things that they're learning about they actually happen to you and me and we can deal with them way better because they happen. And these people are paying

hundreds of thousand dollars We're a big of dummies, huh? You know? So good. I was just listening to Gabor Mate. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's on a book tour right now, right? His book just came out.

So he's on like all the podcasts and several that I follow. And he was on Joe Rogan talking about this idea of trauma. It kind of inspired this idea that I think really ties to what you're talking about that at the end of the day, when we experience these traumas as children and our developing age, that basically trauma is nothing more than an incomplete circuit or an incomplete cycle. And that if we look at again, as above, so below, these concepts, like in the body, a healthy body completes its cycles.

So whatever it is, the regeneration of our cells, our digestion, all of it is a cycle. And again, my partner, she's a doctor. And so we were talking about this idea. She's like, yeah, anytime you see unhealth in the body, it's because something isn't getting done. There's not enough estrogen promoting this kind of thing. So what do you have to do? You have to complete the cycle by bringing in more estrogen.

Or you have to do this thing to be able to support it to complete the cycle. So again, in our emotional world, if the cycle isn't complete and that happens over a prolonged period of time, it can lead to traumas or these things that happen to us. And they're highly traumatic. They break a cycle of some sort. And so then we live with that. And then as adults, the work of healing is basically going back and completing the circle. completing the cycle. And that's often what psychedelics does, right? It comes in. Neuropasticity.

We're able to go to those places and we complete a cycle that then leads to some sense of healing in our lives. And then we see the broken cycles and everything around us. We see it in other people. We're like, oh, my, come. You want to talk about a tell? That is a broken cycle. Now I don't know the details, but I can tell there's some cycle in you that's broken. And then you get around those people, you're like, whoa, you're in tune. Your cycles are moving. You're not getting hung up. And then we, again, in our spiritual path, as we do this work, we realize that we don't have to carry the trauma of unbroken cycles in our lives. So will there be suffering? 100%.

But does suffering have to lead to extreme trauma? I believe that as we awaken, we can hold the suffering. We can see the suffering. But that suffering doesn't induce a trauma because we let it move through our bodies. We understand. We don't hold it. We do the work. we have the practices that take that experience and we're able to fully move it through.

We can experience the grief. We can experience the anger. We can experience all of it. And we expand our nervous systems to hold the capacity to hold all of it. So that when the suffering does hit, it's not taking us to a place of trauma, but it's actually revealing the joy that's actually there, which is the paradox. It's fucking weird. But I think that's what they're talking about.

I don't know. Does that resonate like in what you're talking about? 100%. And I, you know, it's so weird that so many of us spend so much time trying to avoid suffering when in fact, suffering is the one thing that frees you. And if you can begin to think about it like that, like suffering is that is the beginning of getting better. Like it's the, it is the process by which we begin to be reborn, right? And if you look at, if we just go back to childbirth, like there's a real chance. there's a real chance your child dies in childbirth

there's a real chance the mother dies in child that's why they call it the miracle of birth yeah and it's suffering like the child is getting their oxygen cut they're trying to pass through this little they're going into the light this narrow canal and life is being born and life is suffering and if you can think about it like that

if you can think about what you had previously said about this current environment we live in is still a wound you know we are we are suffering for a reason because we're about to be reborn. We're always being reborn. But too many people try to avoid suffering. And then that's probably one reason why you have broken circuits is because they're so good at stopping the suffering. They find a way to do it.

But the suffering just manifests in disorders, right? Right. I mean, it's the same idea that like suffering is nothing more than just like wanting to stay in the womb and not go through the canal. That's it. Because the going through the canal is the rebirth. But you don't rebirth something that wasn't created in the womb. So the rebirth process and this journey that you're going through simply is bringing forth something that is already in a womb that needs to come out. It needs to be birthed.

But if you also aren't doing the work to facilitate some of that stuff, that's where I think sometimes you have to go through the death process. Like you really have, that's the ego death, right? That's the deconstruction. That's like where it's the other side of this. That is the rising from the ashes as the phoenix, right? You have to go through death to break yourself down enough to realize the essence to then begin the process of going through the rebirth. Because not all deaths lead to a rebirth. And I think you see this happen in people.

Death is an opportunity to go through the rebirth process and suffering is the opportunity to go through the rebirth process. But not everybody takes it. Annie Lamont calls it the cosmic banana pill. And it will come in life. You will slip. You will fall. And when it happens, your opportunity is to go through a new cycle, to go through the rebirth. But a lot of people don't choose that.

And you can see that in it, right? The circuit is broken. They sit with extreme unhappiness, depression, all of these things. And to me, often going back and looking at what circuit was broken, what death took place in your life that you haven't processed, what death, what happened? and we got to go back to that place, and that begins the grounds for the reber. Wow. Do you think that like,

so when we, if we take what we just said and we look at it in ourselves and we look at it on an individual level, like we can see parts of us that have died. Both of us have told stories about parts of us that have died, whether it's old relationships or it's lost, you know. But is that same?

thing happening on a world level. Like if we if we can agree that we didn't come into this world, we came out of it. And we can also agree that parts of us die because they're no longer necessary for us to grow. Then can we also look at like the monarchy dying is that same process? Like we no longer need that old process. And while it's painful for them to die, that idea must die in order for us as a world or species or planet to continue to move forward.

Like it's going to die. You can see it happening. Like you can bump as much you want in there, but still going to die. It might be a body on life support. Keep it alive, but it's still dead. It's like,

can we use that model of ourselves to look at the world like that? I hope so. That's what I put a lot of chips on that one, man. I'm putting a lot on red saying, this experience is reflective of what's happening in this world because, you know, I feel like in reading the context and trying to pay attention to what's happening, we are headed into some pretty strange times.

And we've been in some pretty strange times. And we are at a pivot. And again, depending on who you pay attention to, recently I've been getting pretty deep into the human design world. I don't know if you've swam in those waters at all. Are you familiar with human design much? Maybe a little bit. I'm not sure if I would use that particular word to describe it. Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by human design.

Well, so let me just. Yeah, please. This is the definitive book of human design by Ra Aruhu. So this is like an entire understanding and a way of thinking that applies about six different structures. And again, I am by no means a human design expert. So anyone that's listening that is, you're like, I'm probably talking like a baby at this point. So just no, it's very infantile in my understanding. I'm just starting this journey.

But it's looking at these ideas that like basically it's built on some astrology elements. It's built on some Eastern thinking. It's built on all these different parts of being able to really look at cycles and understanding intelligent design, getting past the thinking mind and into the true design of the universe. And so human design basically says that we've been in a, as they call it, the cross of planning. And it's basically been this age of about 400. years that we've been in. And the planning has really been where we see this world has been enamored by planning. And so through colonization, imperialization, money, all this stuff,

planning, planning, planning, right? Capitalism, planning, planning, planning, we've lived in this world of planning. And effectively, and again, I don't always know, like, dates. I get a little heads. It's probably my old Bible, like, Jesus is coming back in 1995. Like, we're still here. So many times I hear, like, dates, like the Mayan calendar stuff. from 2000. I've always been suspicious. It's my hair. I'm like, ah, it could be bullshit. But their thing is saying like 2027, there's going to be the shift into the sleeping phoenix. The systems are going to fall. This stuff is going to happen. The transition is going to take place. And if we're going to ride the wave of the transition, that we ride this wave, not by trying to hold on to the old patterns, not trying to overplan for it, not trying to hold on to our money.

not trying to hold on to our current systems, but by being able to actually make the jump and ride the wave of realizing there's another reality. There's another way that things can be done. There is going to be an evolution of our species. We are going to, and we can be part of that evolution. Yeah. We can actually help progress it forward. We can begin to wake up to the propaganda that we've been told about what's going on

in our world. And we can begin to see these structures that are going to begin to fall. And the way they fall, ultimately, I'm like, the best way to protest in my mind is taking your authority back. And it's saying, no, like, I'm not going to export my authority. I'm going to own my inner intelligence. I'm going to listen to my body. I'm going to listen to the divine. I'm going to own my authority.

And the beauty of that owning of authority, I think is going to mean a stratification of us as people. And our authority is going to be different. And we're going to see different things. And we're going to realize we're not a homogenized world. You know, one of the beautiful things that Jesus says is that, you know, if you lose your saltiness, you know, what good are you? You're going to be thrown out on the trash heap is what he says. And this idea that saltiness is to bring out the flavors, like the diversity. And like when you get so planted and you live in this structure of plant, you lose that saltiness.

And I think Christianity has. I think that's why you're going to see so many people exit from the traditional organization of religion. because it ain't salty anymore. And they're going to go after the salt. They're going to go after the thing that spices life up and brings out the fullness of life. Because really to be a follower of Christ, it means you're inviting people into that saltiness.

And you're saying, how are you being salty? How are you being unique? What does that saltiness look like? That's an intriguing question of Jesus. Yeah, I like that. And I think it's already, like, if you're honest with yourself, I think it's already happening. I was talking to a...

It's been happening for the last 50 years. I mean, like, we can't think, like, just in days, like, it's been happening. But anyways, what are you going to say? Yeah, it's my friend, Benjamin George, I always talk to. And, you know, we, we, sometimes we dive into this world of the political upheaval and all this chaos and just craziness. And, you know, for so long, it seems that the cycles of history may not repeat, but they rhyme. And he brought up a good point, like, you know, you can't fight. the power with the same tools and structures that they fight with.

And for so long, that's happened. And there's, there's sayings like the, the revolution eats its own. Because if you use the same tactics, sooner or later, you end up being the same person.

And we see that in our lives sometimes if we look at cycles. A lot of the time, there's like that saying that says, if you're not a Democrat when you're young, you don't have a heart, you're not a Republican when you're old, you don't have a brain. There's all these cycles of life that people go through.

But it seems that, you know, it's more of a helical model. We're moving up. And I think that the majority of people are looking at the world now and saying, you know what, we don't have to participate in this. Why are we, we don't, you know, fighting is a, is a false choice. You have to be on this side or this side. You got to be red or blue.

No, you just don't have to participate. And like, when you don't participate, you're not giving your authority to other people. Like, you know what? I'm not going to. And there's this term of quiet quitting. And, hey, how come there's no workers? Like, people don't want to do this anymore. Like, it sucks.

you, hey, here's a good idea. Why don't you get up and work, I don't know, 80 hours a week, you get up at five, you drop your kid off at school, you drop your parents off at an old folks home, and then you go work for somebody else for 12 hours, and you destroy your family, and you make a handful of dine. Like, who the hell wants to do that? That's such a horrible, stupid way to live life, man. Yeah, it really is.

I mean, I think, yeah, it's really the way that, you know, the Matrix makes more sense to me than it ever did. Yeah, totally. Right. And really, really, and when you really start to think about the concept of a matrix, right? Yeah. Harvesting the energy of people for its own purposes. Honestly, I think when you go back and look at the teachings of the Christ,

and then even through some of the epistles and Paul and these other people that kind of were tuned in, you know, you're seeing them giving you a map of how to break out of the matrix. Yeah. Like Jesus said, like the same thing. Hey, because the matrix they were fighting was the religious, which was Judaism. and the invasion of Rome. So they had these matrix that were over them as people, as human beings,

and basically the Christ is saying, one, we're going to break out of the matrix of the religion. So we're going to break out of this thing of Judaism and law and all this stuff. And I'm going to show you a totally different way to connect to the divine. So I'm going to break you out of this matrix that you've been putting all your energy into.

And that's why, frankly, he was killed because he basically told people to stop putting their energy into the religious. And then at the same time, with Rome and all of the energy that it was bringing, he basically said, hey, you don't fight.

You don't, there is a way of nonviolence. You cannot go the way that they bring it. You've got to go a completely different third way. And you've got to realize it's your own inner authority. You don't have to play by these rules anymore. You can break these rules. In fact,

there's a whole other reality that you can begin to understand when you, when you bring it back and you, you understand what's going on. And so much of like what you see in scripture at times for me is a call to that. Now, has it been abused and manipulated? Are we reading the original text? I don't know. Like, I don't care, really.

What matters to me is like, can I see a blueprint here? Is there truth to how to break out of the matrix? Is there, that's it, right? Matrix, heaven, hell, kingdom of God. Same. Same. Just different words. Different words.

Yeah, it makes me. me think one one text that really got me thinking was like the gospel of Thomas and they talk about oh man that guy's just on point like he got Jesus was like Thomas come here you get this come here let me show you something like

my father's kingdom is all around us but nobody sees it you know what I mean like he's like like you said he's pulling back the curtain and being like look you know I think he was also the only one where you know Thomas like yeah I don't believe any of this man he was the hairstick He went through the heretic and he's like, oh, you don't see the real shit?

Let me tell you. These other guys, like, I've told it to them differently. I needed it to be heard in this other way. Luke was the physician. He kind of got it all dialed in, whatever. But like, you're my doubter, so I'm going to show you the real stuff. Doubting Thomas. Totally.

Pay attention to the doubters. Right. Pay attention to the heretics. Pay attention to the prophets. They're the ones that are shaking stuff up. The edge of the kingdom of God is not in the center of power, but it is on the edge. So can you pay attention? into the edge. That's the invitation. Like that's to me, again, now listening to people, what's going on

in this world, what's propaganda, what's not, like where are the edges right now? Because again, like permaculture is a beautiful picture of this, right? Like the growth of it comes from the edge of the farm, not the production in the middle, but the shit and the bugs and the dirtiness on the edges brings the life. That's where you're going to find Jesus. And if you want to talk about like Jesus coming back, whatever that fucking means, it's happening. It's happening. happening on the edges. It's not happening. Like it ain't he ain't coming for the church. He's coming, you know, the return, whatever shift we go through, I think is another cycle that we've seen happen multiple times. We're about to go through an experience like that. And the edge is going to be

where we find where we find the life. Yeah, I love that, man. That's so true. Like, when I think about I'm coming back, it's like the, it's like the return of the exit of the matrix. If we can use something that we've talked about. Like, it's the return of, hey, non-participation, or it's the return of worshiping without having to bow down to a congregation. It's the return of God resides inside the individual. And I do wonder sometimes if the return of God may be the idea of of like rebellion in a sort of way like a

I don't know if I'm saying that right like a non-participatory the non-participation in life maybe there is the return you know and it it does seem to me that that there is an overwhelming spirituality beginning to take hold

and I see the people leaving congregations for the salt be it the Buddhist the Jew the Christian or the Muslim like there is this idea of us growing together. And gosh, dang it, I can't help but think the way mycelium grows. Like if you look at like a root structure, pick your root structure. Just go online and look at it. And if you really want to go, you should check out a video I did about it because

super awesome. But this idea of a root structure. And then look at the mycelium in that structure and how it grows from plant to plant to tree to tree and it distributes nutrients to those plants. I think the same way, like that root, if you took an image of a root structure and then you took an image of a neural network in someone's brain, they look almost identical. And it's fascinating to me, the way mycelium moves the energy around that root structure and it also moves energy around the brain. I've been doing a little bit of research on why is it that there's this concept of synesthesia. And for those who don't know what synesthesia, it's feeling.

the taste or it's seeing color or you get to taste a color. It's like it's kind of, you know, you get to process information in different parts of the brain. And that's exactly what's happening in my opinion is sometimes when you take psychedelics, it will allow you to process the sense of taste in the visual cortex. It will allow you to process the sense of smell in the vernicas area where, you know, or the language centers. And so you're processing different information and different parts of the brain. So you're going to experience the world differently. And I think that's just a beautiful way of getting to go through life and see the world differently.

And that's maybe the evolution that's happening. Maybe that is the return of Jesus, getting to see the world through a godlike point of view. I just, it's fascinating to me, this concept of as beloved so below. And you look at my celium, move stuff through the roots and moves it through your brain. the same. What does that mean for us? Are we individual nodes? Are we the fruit? Because isn't it interesting how you can meet someone and be like, wow, I bet you this person. This is a pretty psychedelic person. You can totally tell someone who's had similar experiences than you. I think it's so interesting too. Like thinking about the mycelium network around what's happening

and you look at a tree that's unhealthy and how basically the network will come and support that tree to bring it back to health. Right. And so we can see. this both on these levels, I think you can see it also happening on a societal level. Yeah. A cultural level. And there's an unhealth in the culture. There's an unhealth in society. And the beauty is that, again, if we, instead of talking about the return of Jesus, let's talk about the return of Gaia, right? The return of earth, right? This energy saying like, you know what? Like, I let you go to this edge. I let you get to this place of unhealth. I will not let you

die fully, you won't be fully cut off. And so now we got to come back to health. And as we come back to health, that is the return. It's a return to health. Christ coming again or this concept of a return of a return to health. And it has been the evolution of human beings. And I'm so grateful, honestly, that we're sitting in a pretty awesome time of history for fear return of health. Like, My goodness. Like, you know, you want to talk about the history books in the future. Like, this time is significant. We don't even really know yet what's what it's all going to look like.

But, you know, I've been so enamored by the 60s and this movements and going back and reading about it and understanding what took place because it, you know, it wasn't part of my lived experience. And feeling sometimes like, I wish I knew what that was like. And then being like, man, we're in it. Yeah, totally. way more intense than it was in the 60s. Like, you know, we're, we're on the edge of some pretty crazy stuff. And what a time. Like, what a time to be alive.

So much, like, gratitude for that and to get to have this experience. Like, yeah, it's pretty, pretty wild. So one thing I, one thing I've really been thinking about lately is that, you know, so I'm 40, I'm going to be 48 coming up. Okay. And I'm so thankful for the time I've gotten to live in. But a lot of the people my age were born into this world of materialism. And I think most of us, maybe some of the younger generations, not so much.

However, I have been taught by culture, by movies, by relationships, by, you know, a lot of media, by a lot of different, you know, books or movies and stuff like that. That in order to be rich, you have to have a lot of material possessions. And a lot of our society bases their idea of success, wealth, happiness on this materialistic idea. And so, but lately, you know, what I see happening, I've been having so many awesome conversations with just everyday people. And I think that the people that are truly rich right now, the people that are going to be looked back on as like, wow, those people were really with it. Those people were really rich.

And maybe the definition of rich is changing is the people that are going out right now and being those agents of change. People that are all, kind of like the first grunion that find themselves on the beach. So too are the people going out right now. And in their daily jobs, having the conversations with people

that are getting people to think. It's like we are the, it's difficult for me. I think words are failing a little bit, but I really think the richest people right now are the people that are getting up every day, going out, and influencing other people,

getting to maybe rip off one or two of the scales of those around you, saying the things that make people think. I think that that is a new form of wealth. And I really think that in the future, it's not going to be a materialistic thing that people look for. It's going to be influence, you know. And I guess those are kind of still the same things, but it's changing a little bit.

Maybe the true influence doesn't come from how much money you have, but it comes from the frame of mind that you have. I think there's a lot more wealth that comes from a conversation than comes from someone transferring numbers to a different bank account. And if people can begin to see themselves as wealthy, people that can talk a little bit, people that can influence, I think that's the real wealth. And maybe it always has been the real wealth and it's just been substituted. But what do you think about that? No, I agree 100%. Like, the reality is the the the movements that you look at right there are first like an awakening to our material like all our like all materialism and whatnot but I really think what I'm seeing and

the movement is people starting to awaken to physicality and in the physical world and that materialism is obviously a physical sense but like we live in a metaphysical world we live in a world that does have frequency, that does have energy that is expressed in these ways. And these are things that they really do hold the power. Again, I've been on this on the rabbit show of like, what's the crazy stuff like Tesla and understanding true free power and all of like this stuff is available. It is out there. I saw this lightning storm the other day and I'm like, God, the clouds hold more energy than

what we can create through our physical world. And we've been so drawn into the physical. everything like how can we harvest and take away from and dig into and even like the idea that like we're trying to understand God through the CERN particle like we're smashing physical particles to get like that's going to tell us what God is like no like we have to begin to awaken to this reality that the physical isn't it and you think about money and the idea of like crypto and all this other stuff we're taking money out of the physical world we're starting to and it's a move that'll be interesting to see ultimately what it leads to but

like cash is disappearing. Like we're starting to see the physicality of stuff, right? I mean, and this is the dark side of the shift of the physicality, right? I mean, again, depending on how down the rabbit hole you want to go, but like, you know, the great reset, you will own nothing and be happy. The documented stuff, like trying to remove our connection to the physical world on some levels and put us in another space, you know, VR, all this stuff.

Like, it's really interesting. And I think it's the ying and the yang. right so we get the beauty of like we're awakening to this deeper reality and the matrix if you will will try to co-op that and take us to a dark space where we could go right and that is one of the scarier things i think sometimes about psychedelics like if the research gets to this place and there's that dark energy put into it could you manipulate people into a completely different way of understanding right could you be on a psychedelic and in a VR experience and think you're experiencing a different life and not be connected to this physical one?

Like that's not that hard to imagine, right? I mean, we've had these experiences. And all of a sudden, you start bringing outside influence and you start putting strapping stuff to people's faces and you start telling them they're going to get this experience. And they realize they aren't connected to a physical world, but they get connected to an AI world or a world of sentient understanding. And that's where shit gets real crazy. Yeah.

You know, like, is this interesting? It is. Always remembering that there will be a balance. So we see a spiritual awakening. And it gives me so much hope. and so much desire, but also remembering that there will be a darkness to that as well. There will always be an underside. There will always be the yen to these movements. And I think we're going to start seeing that kind of really come about as well.

Do you see, like as we move forward into the future, do you see it like the rate of change, the pace of change increasing? Obviously, change is increasing. Yeah. But is the pace of change increasing. Yeah. Without a doubt, right? We're going to start seeing these cycles because they kind of in my mind, because things have been so ramped up and change has kind of been this pretty crazy thing over the last couple years to continue the movement, there's going to have to continue the speed up of the change until some system breaks. And some system will break down, whether it's a political system, whether it's a money system, whether it's our food systems. Some system is going to break and that's going to cause an evolution forward. That's going to push

things to another to another level i think so i think we're going to see um the momentum is at such a point that it's not going to slow down i think it's going to speed up to a breaking point and we have i don't think we've experienced the breaking point yet yeah i think you'll know like you'll see break like when when things break they break yeah so and i do you think that that break is going to take the form of mass tragedies like famine and you know like what do you think it'll be suffering right I don't think we get to the place of of awakening and to joy like everything we've been talking about as above so below like I think there will be suffering I think there will be death I think we will have to sit with losing loved ones and we will sit with some pretty significant tragedy um and I

think just being prepared for that like that is going to be a reality of the breaking like the break happens peacefully. Yeah. Like there's never, and I don't think we have enough of a, of an awakening in our consciousness to, to bring. And again,

maybe I'm wrong. I would love to be wrong on this one. But like, you know, you see certain things like the break of apartheid happening through the movement of forgiveness, right? I mean,

that's such a beautiful idea of like what Mandela brought of like this movement of forgiveness. And it really produced something unique in our world. But that was within a pretty specific people group with a pretty specific experience that were able to kind of understand this thing and make a shift in a beautiful way that didn't lead to, I mean, was there tragedy and suffering? Absolutely. It still took place, but it didn't turn into a revolt. It didn't turn into a civil war. Didn't turn into, even though there's uprisings of that. But again, it's interesting, right? There's that overall sense of forgiveness

and the movement of that. So could we see some of pockets of that happening within the current revolt of systems? I hope so. I hope enough of us are awakening and we're doing the work and we can lead people through peaceful movements and move people through, you know, an understanding that the only way we break the system is by not playing the rules anymore. And we do that in ways that are honoring to others and are nonviolent and are kind of honoring Gaia. And we live with the understanding of these frequencies. I hope we can express that. But man, yes. So like regardless of the tragedy, I hope that there is that essence that comes out. And all of us that have been doing the work like you were saying, are going to be ready to leave the charge and say, hey, you know what?

I may not agree in George's way 100%, but I honor those that follow George. So please continue. If we can agree that these things of the overall goodness, the overall truths, right, like honoring the humanity and another being. Like we can be on those places. Like I think you can see a movement really begin to rise up. One thing I've learned from psychedelics is the. way in which you can view time in a whole other way.

You know, there's such a, it's just so, and I think especially on some of the bigger doses, you really begin to understand that we have no comprehension of what time is. Because you can live a whole life sometimes. You can relive every decision you've ever made, and you can see yourself, literally see yourself from a whole other perspective. You can see yourself living different lives. And so because I've had that experience,

I've been able, one way I've integrated that in my life is to come back and look at the world that way. And I'm so thankful to have those experiences. And one way that I've seen is that if you look at the planet as an organism, but you step back and you say, wow, we have this older generation, this baby boomers. And might the chaos we see in this world be the fear of death of so many individuals.

There's so many baby boomers throughout the world. And a lot of them are getting ready to die. And all of a sudden, there's all these wars happening. And there's all this transition of ideas and realizations that expectations are not going to happen. There's dreams that are dying. There are ideas that are dying. And there are, there are, there's a matter.

part of the conscious planet that knows it's about to die and doesn't understand what death is. And I think that that is part of what this chaos is. And it feeds back into religion. It feeds back into these ideas of life. Like, I think that a big part of the chaos we see is the fact that so many people are knocking on death's door and they don't know how to incorporate that. So they're acting out. If you've ever seen a scared animal back into a corner, it reacts. It's fearful.

I mean, come on. Just take a look at Christian nationalism right now. Right? I mean, let's just call a thing, a thing. This is an ugly, grotesque movement of people that are manipulating the words of Christ, manipulating. And again, these ideas that, like, I was listening to this one guy talking about the idea that, like, discipleship of people is to bring dominion over them.

Like, we're literally talking about, like, dominion. This honestly, or pisses me off and makes me one. want to weep because of just the grieving nature that these words of Christ are being so manipulated to drive Christian nationalism, control over people, ugly war, just it is so ugly. And honestly, to me, I'm like, this is the dying breath of a movement that is doing everything it can to try to have relevancy, to try to hold onto its power, to try to have its control. and there are going to be people. There are people that are very bought into it,

and they're going to follow it because it's an alignment to their certitude and their way of life. And my prayer on the deepest level, whatever that word means, is that they would awaken to the manipulation, that they would awaken to really being able to realize that the wool has been pulled over their eyes

and that Christ and God and these elements of religion should be put together with power is really, really dangerous. And I'm scared. Like, I'm honestly, like, if it takes, like, and this movement that we see taking place in the next couple years, like, it could be the thing that really pushes it forward in some ways. And so I just,

I pay a lot of attention to that. I'm actually really weird. I listen to Christian radio when I drive around town because I'm like, I got to get behind enemy lines and see what these weird people are talking about when they talk about Jesus. And there's some weird shit, man, like really, really weird stuff that people are talking about. And what's the really weird stuff people are talking about?

Man, like so again, this idea that like to be a Christian is to believe that the dominion of God is in coordination to controlling your politics and your government. And so what you're seeing happen are all these Christians are getting into power. They're getting onto school boards. They're coming into local government. That they're being encouraged to step into the political space with their values because this is a Christian nation. and we have to keep it a Christian nation. And because it's about to die, because of all the immoral people that are out there, we have to do everything we can to keep it a Christian nation because we are God's people.

That gets really, really weird. And you can see some of these leaders that are leveraging that for their power. And right now, the system between Democrats and Republicans, the Republicans know there's a lot of money happening here, like a lot of money, man, like some crazy amounts of money are getting funneled into the Christian nationalism. Because the only way you fight extreme is with extreme. Yeah. And so you see the deeper pushes into the wings and that deeper, it gets weirder and weirder,

the deeper you go. And right now the Christian nationalism thing, I think is going to get pushed to the front. There's too much money getting put around. I don't know. It's just, yeah. Yeah, no, that's all awesome. I want to continue talking about it. I think what's really weird is that the further you go on the far,

in the far right, the more aligned those people are. Like the hippie is like the same as like the, you know, the, the fundamentalism is the same person, man. I think at some point in time, like that realization sets in. And that's what undermines the authority is like, dude, we're going to fund these guys. We've got to fund these guys. And these guys like, yeah, we kind of want the same thing, man.

So we're just getting rid of you dummies, you know? One, I mean, that's what's happening in the political realm, right? like the political structures, they're all playing the same game. They are. Like, it's such a farce that it's like there's a difference in our politics. Like there's not, right? We know who's in control. It's the people that have the money.

It's not the people. So money's in control right now. And so because of that, like, yeah, at some point, they're going to have to keep driving these extreme things to drive a movement, to think that they have control. And I think that's just, I think Christian nationalism is going to be some that really comes into the, like, It's a wedge.

You're in Cardo Springs. I'm already seeing political ads for the election coming up in November going against Christian nationalism. Like they're actually bringing it into their political language of saying, this is a dangerous movement. This is what's happening. Like they're calling it out. And so like it'll be when you start seeing it on the local level like that, you realize like, and again, Kara Springs is really unique because we're kind of the bedrock of some of this Christian nationalism. Some of the nonprofits that are here are really espousing it.

They're pushing it forward. You know, things like Focus on the Family, which is always a traditional Christian evangelical nonprofit. They've got Charlie Kirk on their station, which he's one of the main dudes that's espousing this stuff. So it's just really interesting being in a mecca of evangelicalism in this town. And sometimes I hate it, but then I realize like maybe I'm here to help call people out of it. I don't know.

We'll see what happens. But yeah, it's going to get strange. Yeah. It's fascinating to think. And in some ways, I always think about, like, if you want to know what's happening in your country, just look at other countries. Like the same way there was a, the same way that we put sanctions on other countries. Like, we go in there, we try to mess with their currency.

We're like, oh, let's just try to divide the Sunni and she. let's try to black out that divide a little bit or let's go over here and you know let's just try to draw this wedge between the Bosnians and the Serbians or the you know the Uyghurs and the Han like the same thing is happening in our company like there's a ton

of money that's being spent to divide us and all you have to do is turn on your television and look at the propaganda like hey look at these black lives matter versus the proud boys but like really what I see is just two groups of people who have everything in their community being stolen from them

by a banking class, by a class of financiers, or, you know, pick your poison. But there is clearly, the propaganda has become so thick. It's almost, like, it's almost cartoonish. It is. You know, it's like, that's not happening. Like, no one's doing that. Governor Newsom coming out, I don't know if you saw this, but like, in a sweater, in freezing hot weather, telling people to keep their temperatures at like 78,

degrees because the system and like you know what when you're 78 degrees sometimes you do need a light jacket laugh up like what planet are you living on man like yeah it just it almost comes to this place and for me at least instead of getting like caught up in the conspiracy theories and like all the weird stuff that because again that that that that that those streams it's all there yeah it too right yeah yeah again anytime you get attached anytime you find fundamental like fundamentalism is fundamentalism I don't care what you're fundamentalists about. You're a fundamentalist. And the fundamentalists have far more common with each other than those of us that choose

not to be attached, that choose the third way, that choose not to the non-dualistic approach to this reality. And to me, that's what my hope is we will find each other, those of us that cannot be attached and then begin to honestly just laugh and not hold like a sense of like, oh my gosh. But just come on. This is now. we're getting into the realm with some good humor. Like this is going to be,

this is funny. Like, can we really see it? And I love the comedians. To me, like comedy is one of my favorite, like stand up and paying attention to what people are doing. Man,

like, again, the edges, the truth tellers, right? Who are the guys that are getting canceled for saying things? That they shouldn't be what's true about that. Why does the establishment not like it very much?

Um, because of the boundaries that they're pushing. So yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, uh, a lot of comedy, I think, about to come our way.

So this brings up to, I remember, I grew up in a, in Southern California. And there's a different type, for those people that are attached to like activism, I want to propose a new kind of activism. Okay. I'm really curious. Okay. So I grew up in this town in northern San Diego, Oceanside, kind of this area. Okay, beautiful town, right?

Yeah. And all up and down the coast, there's like all these little surf, communities. Yeah. Just down from my town was a town called Cardiff. Okay. And Cardiff decided, you know what? We are a pretty big surfing town.

We want to have a monument. We want to have an artist come in and like put up a statue that just harnesses the idea of the server. And so they got like this really well known, well renowned artist to build this statue. But unfortunately, this artist has never surfed a day in his life. So he built this statue of like this guy's surfing. But it's so unnatural. And like it just looked like a total kook.

And so it became the statue. They had this big unveiling and they're like, oh, here it is. And they pulled off the curtain and everyone's like, what? What? What is that thing? That's not us. That guy's not even serving. That guy's a total kook.

So the statue got labeled the Cardiff kook. And so people were like, they just made fun of it all the time. And one night, like about a week after unveiling some pranksters, some merry pranksters, you know, some people went down and they made this giant paper mache shark and they put it over the top of them they didn't ruin the statue they didn't they didn't you know they didn't defile it any sort of way but they just went out of their way to put art on top of art to point out the absurdity of it like this is not it like we think this is better so when people woke up the next morning on sunday morning they drive down and see this giant paper mache shark eating this kook and like it becomes funny and then all of a sudden it

became like a tradition. Then all of a sudden, like once a month, some artist would outdo the other artist. And like it became like they put like the, you know, like the baby Jesus around. They started doing all these artists, started competing. And it became like this hotbed for artists the same way that maybe the artist got their pictures in the salon back in the medieval ages. So too to this new group of artists find a way to send a message about the absurdity of what people thought. And I think that that is the kind of activism people can do today. It blends comedy with absurdity, with a message that everybody can rally behind. Like, yeah, that is kind of dumb. Or you know what? I don't think that. Or you know what? I'm going to make

my own sort of thing about it. And I think that that is something that should be taught to kids. Should be taught to all of us. And I think that that is part of what wakes people up. And I see it happened in a little bit. I wanted to point that out a little bit. What do you think? So arts are so fascinating to me. I spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, where, because the music movement of the 60s was so fascinating what you saw happen, right? And I, I, because again, this call of the absurdity of the war and again, their absurdities that they were dealing with and breaking out and evolving things forward, right? So many important movements that took place. So, okay, if we're in the same type of pressure cooker, then

means there's got to be some fucking incredible art going on right now. Right? Like there are people out there that are doing things and who are they and how do we pay attention to them? So I do. And honestly, I think right now, for me at least, where I'm finding a lot of really interesting movements is in hip hop and is in the artists that are these younger hip hop artists that are coming up, guys like J.

I,D, Tyler, the creator. There's this whole movement within hip hop, but they're calling shit out in a way that. that we need to begin paying attention to. And to me this year, it's culminated in two key things. One, Kanye West. I know he's a controversial person. I genuinely believe, though, he is an artist that is doing something that the culture does not know how to handle.

And he is worthy to be paid attention to. And so when you see the stuff he's doing, the outlander stuff, like, he gets it. He's plugged in. Like, I genuinely believe, I don't know if I agree with all of it, but like, I, I can understand and respect that he's trying to do something right now. And then another one that kind of just keeps coming on the radar for me is Kendrick Lamar and his new album that just hit, man, talk about a profit that is trying to awaken people in some really deep and meaningful ways.

So like as a hip hop artist, he's pushing the boundaries on things. And then you look at like comedy, right? And Chappelle, like that dude is at the height right now. I've gone back and watched The Closer three times because, he did something in that that truly is a masterpiece and it's worthy to be studied because it was a shift and it was truly beautiful art that was coming out of a really fascinating time. So yeah, man, paying attention to the arts right now and different stuff that's happening. You know, my partner and I were joking about how this, she was talking about evil. And at the end of the day,

one of the secrets of evil is it has to tell you in plain sight what it's going to do. like evil can't happen in darkness really it happens in plain sight and so sometimes like what you see happening in movies is a way that evil is being expressed yeah and and so we've been watching um both the the um the drag or what's the new game of thrones series whatever that is dragon of thrones or i didn't watch the original series but we've been watching the new one and then we've watched in lord of the rings so fascinating or power rings whatever it is two mammoth organizations that are spending ungodly amounts of money. Like you want to know what a billion dollars looks like?

A billion dollars. Like watching this show. So interesting. What message is really trying to come across? Like what, and again, whether it's good or evil, but like,

man, dragon, the throne of dragons, I'm sure people are freaking out. Like, you should know what this is. Like, I'm not that much of a fan.

Right. Because I actually can't watch it. It's too intense for me at times. Like the violence. Like I don't like it. but it's interesting because it's telling you a story it's telling you about it's an art it's an expression of art right now and like yeah so i don't know what the like the arts are so like what a time as well right what do you are you are you paying attention to stuff do you have arts that

you're like really are nerding out on it's happening right now i don't i don't really like i i've never watched game of thrones i don't i have i have tv but i i have one television in my house and I have like Hulu. Yeah. And my daughter will watch some stuff on there. But like I can't, I can't do it, man. Like I spent a lot of time as a kid

just smoking tons of weed and watching TV and like, ever since I started like doing my podcast and like reading more and like talking to people. Like I can't, I feel guilty about sitting down and like watching stuff. And then half the time when I start watching stuff, I'm like, dude, just get out of here then. And I'm like, do this is so fake. Why are you kidding me? It's so dumb.

That would never happen. Yeah. Or I'm the guy that ruins. like, you know what's going to happen? He's going to kill his life. Watch. He should kill his wife. He says, just shut up.

I don't, just, what are you talking about, man? And like, I just, I can't do it. Like, it makes me so upset to see some of the messages in there. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. Totally. But what I do see, I see the billions of dollars being spent on the Amazon series and all of a sudden getting all these bad reviews. Like, I think to myself, like, did these guys spend a billion dollars?

And they're getting horrible reviews. Like, what does that say about the art? Like, that is a sign of it. awakening to me, I think. So, okay, so again, I don't know how far down this rabbit, but this is stuff I think about. This is super fun, George. So, you know, you get this movement happening right now with the whole Ariel thing, right? So I don't know what that is.

Live action Ariel and Ariel's black and everybody's freaking out or supposedly everybody's freaking out. Yeah, I don't care. I actually think this is part of the sciop that goes on is that we think that the social credit of like likes and dislikes. So the big thing is like the video. the YouTube video has like 100 or what is it like 1.5 million dislikes for this but we assume those are physical humans disliking it. How do we not know it's a bot? How do we not know it's

some some AI that went in and just fucking like down liked it a bunch? And then what happens is we attach narratives to it. So now the narrative is the Christians, the Christian nationalist, don't like a black aerial. So it it almost becomes again comical of like why are we getting so up in arms because it's a myth. Like again, the same thing with like Lord of the Rings. I saw some of the the reviews. It was like, like 40% of people gave it 10 stars, 40% of people gave it one star and 20% people gave it something in the middle. Like, come on. At this point, that's marketing. That is an actual truth. You're just marketing to me. So why are you marketing this? Like really like what's going on there? So George, can we pause for like two minutes? Yeah.

I know we're live, but like, give me like 90 seconds and I'll be right back. I'll be more present. Dude, take your time. Do it. I'm going to, I'll talk for a little bit. And then when you come back, I got out of the bathroom. Great. So ladies and gentlemen, I don't know about you, but I'm having an absolute blast.

Like, I do think that there is an incredible wedge being pushed on all people. I think no matter what country you live in, I think that there is a move of foot to divide people. And I think that all you need to do is look back at the last years prior to Trump or maybe even during the Trump times. Like there were the protests in France. There were the yellow vests. There were Brexit. There was Trump. There was Bernie Sanders.

All of these things are people coming together. You may not like what they stood for, but you cannot disagree that it was large groups of people coming together to protest. We saw it in France. the yellow vest movement when all the workers weren't getting paid and they want to take away their holidays. We saw it with Bernie Sanders. We saw it with Trump. What you're seeing is a populist movement come together to tear down the structures of authority. Black Lives Matter, the proud boys. All these groups are doing the same exact thing. It's just that the people in the positions of authority are putting labels on them because they're afraid

to have their power structure ripped down. And it may not be something that's good, but ultimately I don't see how it can't be something good. You know, I was just talking about the idea of the power structures being ripped down. Like, and it's, it's, it's, what you talked about, about Ariel being black or being Mexican

or this idea of a wedge and like media right now. I think that that's a big part of what's going on is that all these structures of propaganda are no longer having the effect. You know, in this idea, you know, I heard, let me, let me take it back to this part. I saw an interview between, I think it was Eric Weinstein and Peter Thiel. And Peter Thiel made the point that, I like Peter Thiel. I think that that guy is incredibly intelligent. I'm not sure I like the Weinstein's that much, but I can get into that later.

But I saw Peter Thiel made the comment that if you took out all the screens in your room, you took out your television, your computer, your phone, that room would look eerily similar to a room in 1950. And the argument he was making is that we as a society in the West, we have bet the farm on technology. You know, if you look at the dot-com boom, like that crashed. If you look at 2008, like all these crashes. We had all these systematic financial failures and technology was to be our savior. And these companies came in and said, look, we're five years. We're 10 years away from solving the problem of productivity. We're 10 years away from having self-driving vehicles.

We're 10 years away from streamlining all these new processes of waste management. But the truth is, everything is. always 10 years away. The technology that we were promised has never shown up. And now it's gotten to the point where all you can do is hide the fact that we have failed. And you can't do that anymore. Like technology was supposed to be a savior. And in some ways it has helped us. But in other ways, it's just an expensive telephone. And so I think that's part of the demise you see. I think that's part of the Amazon crash. I think that's part of this narrative control that's being pushed on everybody. I think that's part of the divisiveness that the people and power are pushing is like,

we don't know what else to do. Let's make sure that everyone is fighting while we're taking all the money out of the back door. But getting back to art, like, I think a solution to this is a new elusis. Are you familiar with the Elusinian mysteries? A little bit, but I'm curious what you mean by that. Okay. So I've read a little bit about it, about it. However, I'm sure that there are people who are much more intelligent and have studied much more about it than me. But when, I'll tell you the part I know about it. So think about a, like a festival of some sort.

And anybody can go to it. And it's your birthright to go to it. Imagine go, okay, let me try to just paint you a picture the best that I can. Imagine going to like a beautiful winery. And you walk up this primrose path and you find yourself making your way to an amphitheater. And the amphitheater is surrounded by a beautiful forest and it's on the cliff and you look down and you can see the beach and you can hear the sounds of the wave crashing. And upon entering, you're given like a psychedelic, like a mushroom tea.

Maybe not a huge dose. Like you don't want to be flipping out and getting all crazy. But you're given like, say four grams and you're surrounded by people and you walk in as an individual. But then when you sit down into this amphitheater, you take your, you drink. your tea and about there's some music playing and then all of a sudden you know about 40 minutes you start feeling it and now the actors they begin to walk on on stage and you see these actors playing out a tragedy of a woman losing a child the child is kidnapped or the child dies and now all of a sudden you're you're fully immersed in this play and the person next to you may have been a

homeless person and you may be a middle class person but you forget you. get that because you're under the influence of a psychedelic substance and you're watching this woman on stage, just the same way you've seen a powerful movie, whether it's the Lord of the Rings or it's Forrest Gump or whatever movie grabs you. Like, you're immersed in this thing and it's live. And not only are the actors on stage, but it's a Certe Soleil type of thing where there's actors in the audience coming to you, like grabbing you. like, do you see this? What are we going to do? This lady just lost her daughter. And now all of a sudden, you become part of this collective.

You forget you're an individual. And you're reaching over the person next to you. And you're acting out. And then you watch this, you watch the play continue to manifest. And everyone goes through this ritualistic experience on a psychedelic substance. And you watch someone die. And then all of a sudden, the girls found. They find her.

They found her, Jason. She's alive, man. We got her. Fuck. Yeah. She's alive, man. You grab the person next to you and you're like, dude, we did it. You know what?

And you got to help out because you're part of the crowd and you were pointing out the guy in the crazy mask. And like, you got to go through this ritual together. And I think that that is what people are missing. I think we need a new elusus the same way the 60s had Woodstock. But what if Woodstock was something that happened every year? What if a ritual, this thing that has been ripped away from the. religious community. This thing that has been torn from the soul of humanity is the act of ritual that people go through. And I think that this, you know, a ritual ceremony is something that

not only points towards the answer, not only points to the answer, but it allows you to participate in the answer and also see it happen from a different point of view. It's back to the Trinity. You're getting to experience something on three different levels. And I think that that is something that humankind has lost like we have lost the ritual we have lost the reason why we're doing what we're doing and when you don't have a reason to do something there's no meaning to it

and how many people don't have meaning in their life and why would you like the fuck is the point of this like money's the point of this well then why even do it it's dumb right what if it's more what if there's always been meaning there but we just forgot what it is like and that is the rebirth that is the rediscovering of purpose. And I think that that is what ritual is. And I really think there's something to be said about it. A ritual ceremony, a new right of elusive where you could sit down and be part of a theater. You could, and it's something that could be organic that could happen in a theater near you. It could be something that you put on. It could be something that becomes so good that now you take your, your theater and you move your artwork to go perform in Colorado. The same way your troop comes over.

here and performs in Hawaii. I think it's a rebirth of that. You know, it reincarnates the revival and the spiritual nature that is our, that is our birthright to experience, man. I think that that is something that should be harnessed there. So, I mean, so much of what you're describing, like that ritual is so important to have because when you go through the ritual, it leads you to a practice. Yes.

And that practice, and this is something that I've really, this is the integration piece. any work that we do in different planes of consciousness or just experiences or tragedies wherever is we have to be able to integrate it and we integrate it through a practice back on this plane and what that practice does to from as you're describing that experience all I could think about was you describing life we we sit in a movie theater seat right now I'm in a seat this is my play you are my movie right now I'm just a participant I'm not all I'm doing is watching the movie happening all around me at all times. And I'm not attached to the fact that that person actually died because she might actually come up alive again. And I'm not

attached to the fact that you're in Hawaii. Like, this is a play. This is like, it's all magic. And I'm just, and can I remember that I'm not actually a participant, but actually I sit? Because if we think we're a participant, then we get into Plato's cave situation, right? Where all we're doing is observing the shadow and the screen and we don't realize that we can, leave at any moment and we can walk away from this thing, but that the ritual, this practice, this art, this calling to this deeper thing reminds us that then when we're in our everyday life, that at any moment it's accessible. One of the things that really came to me in my journey was again, and it's so basic and it's sometimes it's so cliche, but again, sometimes the cliches

are the truth. And it was the reality of breath, that every breath is life and death. And I sat there and I really for the first time played with the power that when I inhale, I'm bringing life. But there's the moment of the exhale and the transition and the rebirth, right? And breath is a constant reminder of death and rebirth. And it's available to us at any moment. We can all just pause, take a breath and realize, yeah, it's all right there. It all sits in our breath at any moment we can return to it. And that's the practice.

And that's where that shit actually begins to matter. Because otherwise, all we've done is to talk about a lot of fluff and a lot of theories and a lot of maybes. And they're really fun. And I can really nerd out on them. But like sometimes I have to come back and I have to sit with my breath. Or part of my practice has been wearing this fucking necklace. Like, it's just a necklace. But what it does is a necklace that I actually often journey with.

And it's a thing that grounds me. And when I meet with people or I wear it not as a sign of anything other than to be reminded that I'm grounded. to be reminded of my humanity, to be reminded that this thing holds so much because I've taken it so many places with me. And so therefore, I can sometimes tap into that and I can be grounded and I can now begin to practice all of these really fun ideas and concepts. Because if it doesn't actually change my life, if it doesn't actually change the way I love my partner or the way I show up for my children or the way that I'm showing up in this world, then all you're doing is just having really fun experiences.

And that's to me, I think, if anything, and why I'm so passionate about experiencing integration and coaching people and this work is because, look, if it doesn't come back, then again, it was great. But there's so much here about integrating it into our lives and beginning to change the way we live our lives and beginning to experience the whirlpool and the flow of energy and it coming through us and it not getting stuck. and it mattering in the here and now. So yes, like, let's do that.

Let's have those. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Rituals. More rituals. I, you know, like, I've been thinking a lot about how my boys, they're getting ready to step into those puberty years and, and ritualizing their manhood and

bringing them into something and putting intention around it and bringing ritual. And we even started just jokingly, but it's now kind of becoming a thing. Like Sunday mornings, we have church. together. We're creating ritual. We pulled out plastic bins and sound bowls and shakers. We just made noise and we chanted and we did. But like again, if I really believe in this stuff and this stuff actually matters to me, then I have to bring it into practice. And the tell of that this practice is a value or not is it begins to produce fruit. It has a mushroom, right? Because all the mushroom is is the fruit. So I can have all the mycelium network. I can be connected as deeply as I want.

But if I don't find the mushrooms, I don't see the fruit, then I've got problems. And I need people around me. I need community. I need ritual. I need these things to cultivate. So when I think about integration is really four movements, right? You have your preparation work. You have your experience. You integrate and then you cultivate. And the cultivation is what's producing the fruit in your life. And that's how you know, like, again, you can see the people that don't have fruit and like what's going on. And then you can see the people that are eating the fruit of the good tree, right? Yeah, totally. That matters. It does matter. Cultivation is so much. I want to, I want to continue to go down the path of integration because it seems to me, have you, let me first start

this part of the conversation by asking you, how have you helped a lot of people? Have you coached a lot of people so far? Or how is that going? It's honestly just been a handful right now. I haven't. I've been really trying to figure out my place and how to go through the process of beginning to do the integration with people. So I've had the pleasure of sitting with a handful of people and beginning that process of helping them go through the integration. And some of it was also me finding my voice that really the integration that I feel called to doing most work around is spiritual work. that some of like whether it's clinical or therapy integration which I think is really important for people. But that's not, I'm just not trained.

I'm actually a horrible therapist at the end of the day. Like I've thought about like, should I be in therapy? Like I just like telling people how it is too much and a therapist has to hold that back. And I'm like, no. Like if you're going to come to me, I'm going to be more of a spiritual director. I'm going to give you truth and you get to decide what you want to do with that. A therapist has a different. And I love therapy.

I've benefited so much from it. But I had to realize my strength is actually in my. words and in my voice and calling people into that, telling them their truths, helping them see it. And that to me, I feel like is a little bit different than therapy work. So honestly, man, I'm still trying to figure out what is all of that look like. But yeah, I've had had some really deep, meaningful experiences with people and helping them integrate. Okay.

See, I think this is at the forefront of psychedelic therapy right now. Like you had mentioned that there is a real challenge or a real potential for. certain types of, you know, like set and setting to be patent or certain types of chemicals to be patent. It can only be for people with, with this problem, you know, and like that is at the forefront. But so too is the idea of psychedelic therapy. Like some people say, oh, well, are you a doctor? Have you, I mean, do you have a degree in psychology? And some states have different rules and other States have, so in some ways we are at the beginning of integrating therapy. And there's a lot of different schools on what it should be. So I'm curious, do you think, I guess maybe one of the

first questions I have is, do you think that there should be, like, is there a system? Does it, does it, can someone come once or twice or is this something someone should take all the time or do they always have to sit with the therapist or is it something you teach them so that they can do it alone? Like what is your philosophy on integration and long-term integration? Yes. Again, I have, for me, I've had to step into my voice, my authority. What can I help people integrate into their lives and knowing my medicine is connected to my experience. And so anyone that I work with has to be in some sense of a similar wavelength of being willing to hear my medicine. And so to me, like, I think if we get, again, if we try to bring old modalities,

old homogenized ways of healing, I think there can be some darkness to that. And frankly, like, you know, love, love maps, love the work that they've done and progressing things forward. but there's some dark underbelly stories that are coming out around abuse and therapy. And again, a homogenized approach to how to help people go through. And they've been so structured and they've been playing by the rules because they need to to get the FDA approval. So they played the rules. And I think sometimes the downside of that could be that now of a sudden you're getting therapists that are trained in one way of healing. Yeah.

And one way of understanding and a more Western medical approach to do this stuff. And again, it's beautiful. I really don't, I hope it continues to evolve and progress. But there's sometimes where I feel like for me, it's, it's about what is the individual feeling called to? What kind of work are they feeling called to? And if I'm going to work with anyone, they got to like, it may not be like psychedelics. They might need a lot of work before they're going to be ready to step into that.

That's where the preparation comes in. And I get, you know, like the fact that like these companies like mind bloom or the ketamine like delivering ketamine to people, you know, just making it that easily accessible. And, you know, I'm kind of concerned. I am on different threads of, on Reddit, where I read about what people's experiences are. And there's a lot of themes that are starting to come up

where people are saying it didn't work for me or it was really hard. Like, and there's just no support. And that feels really like dangerous on some levels. And then, you know, the, the microdosing world, again,

like anything, there's going to be good and there's going to be abuse. And we have to be able to hold space for the paradox of that as we go through this movement because it will be abused. It will cause hurt. And it is extremely dangerous stuff. And it can have significant consequences. And there can be ret traumas. And there's so much here that we're playing with God. At the end of the day, we cannot forget that these medicines are. And that's where I feel like when you look at the more indigenous approach of having the shamans, having the indigenous person within the tribe,

like what that represents. I want to make sure we don't ever have that cultural appropriation of like bringing shamanism or saying that we can be a shaman because I think that's really dangerous. But I do think we start to need spiritual leaders rising up within our current tribes that can play the role of shaman, that can play the role of pastor, that can play the role of spiritual director. For whatever tribe you're in, where is that shaman? Where can you go to get a different level of healing and that the shaman can also help direct that versus a medicinal like go take these three sittings and again maybe you start there i mean i've

been so moved by hearing the stories that people have had PTSD really cured by having an mdma experience through maps it's beautiful it's beautiful stuff um but again what's the trajectory and what do we just need to be mindful of and and i do think they're like anything there's going to be some some I guess collateral damage that's going to happen through this process. Yeah. Sometimes I think in these situations, like, you know, you're one horrific story away from a total clampdown. Yeah. You know, and it can't happen.

And I mean, you know, we talked earlier in the conversation, we talked about, you know, the 60s and how that, it got clamped down rather quickly. and in some ways I don't see how that cannot happen like I think at some point there will be a move to clamp all this down I don't think it'll fail but I think that

I think it's you know if something my wife my wife is Laotian and they have this she told me this this not a prophecy but they have like a a problem thank you very much

I couldn't think of that thing work you know if something happens once it may never happen again if it happens twice it'll definitely happen again and all you need to do is look at like prohibition psychedelics like you know it it gets clapped down and then it just the the floodgates go but i think that like you said there are already stories coming out about about abuse and why not because anytime one person is an authority position and someone is vulnerable the temptation to abuse that person is always there and it doesn't have to be psychedelics. It happens in in counseling all the time. And so, yeah, I was just curious. I do think another direction people can go wrong in this

space is that sometimes the coach or the person integrating can become like the pastor you spoke about and begin programming people to be a certain way. Here's how you fix your friends. Instead of giving them the tools. Yeah, or the Socratic. method of asking questions, they just go with, here's what you should do. Or don't you think, maybe they lead the witness. Don't you think that maybe this is a sign of that, you know, or? And I think, again, for me, sitting in that place of knowing that, like, if I am going to sit with someone and quote unquote channel, which I think is spiritual practice, right, you're

listening to something deeper and really share something with someone, always framing it in the context of this is what I see. You have to decide if this is true for you. I am not telling you truth. You decide what the truth is. And that's a way of continuing to ensure that their power structure is always with the individual. Now, I might share something or I might kind of dive in and be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing. This is what I understand. We've now been working together for a little while. These are the patterns that I see. I'm going to call this truth out. But I'm not calling it from a place of power. All I'm calling out is something for you to look at. And you have, have to now sit with, does this make sense for you or am I wrong? Because I could be wrong,

100%. Like, the shaman isn't always right. And that's the funny thing. It's like, people think that the shaman knows they're not always right. Yeah. They don't have the ego that of being right. They just have the only work that I had to do is speak my truth. And again, speak what I am, finding in my own voice and in my own soul and sharing that with someone. And if I'm authentic in that, and I can do that because I've done the work, right, back to like being true. authentic, then I don't have to hold anything to that what I'm actually saying is right. That's the real teaching is like, I don't have to be right. You get to decide if the words I'm saying make any sense. You're the one that's good. Right. We're in the movie theater. So you're

watching this thing going on. You decide in your seat from the movie, does this resonate to the inner intelligence that's within you? And if it doesn't, then please let it go. Don't get attached. I'm not attached to it. I could be completely wrong. And so I think that's really where we start getting into that proper spiritual direction with people and helping them, I have the right tools. Because again, at the end of the day, like you were saying, the individual must have the experience with the divine. And if the individual isn't experiencing the divine, then you have to begin questioning what are they experiencing? Because is it controlled by someone else? Is it manipulative? Is it all these other things because I believe in the sovereignty of every single person to have that direct connection

to the divine. There is no elevation here. There is no hierarchy. And the moment we start thinking that there's hierarchy or we're saying this guru saying this or this person's better than this, this is what I love about the Christ. He said, you'll go do things better than me, more than me. He never said it stopped with him. He said he was actually the start of this thing. and his encouragement and his challenge to all of his believers, it was to go out and make other Jesuses. You're a Jesus. I want you to go out and make other Jesuses who are going to do things far beyond

what I could ever do. That's the invitation, is to evolve it forward, not to try to control it. And so I think as long as that comes into some of the work within the psychedelic movements, and, you know, I think we have to continue to honor the indigenous people and their practices, the moment we try to start co-opping and saying like, oh, I can lead you through an ayahuasca ceremony. I would never feel comfortable with that. Honestly, the only reason I feel comfortable is psilocybin is that I think it's the one medicine that's truly universal.

And it's kind of been around the longest. It's the foundation of all the other psychedelics. Like on some levels, they're all connected back to the mushroom in some way of an evolutionary process. you can see the traces, you know, ayahuasca or Iboga or these other ones, you know, they have similar elements, but they've evolved and changed. But psilocybin is the base. So to me, it feels comfortable that we can use it and work with it. And I feel like I could, but I would, you know, I think when you start hearing people leading like Iboga ceremonies that are not connected to the indigenous people of Africa, I begin to really question like what's going on there. So, you know,

or with ayahuasca ceremonies happening in the States, not connected to the, the mother god in peru gaia like again we just can we pay attention to the rhythms of what the earth has given us and not break out of them but work with it and honor it you know peyote is one that i would never touch i feel like peyote is meant for the indigenous people of this north american world that we see and it is a special medicine for them and to think that we can co-op that And my mind is not one unless I'm invited into it. And I had an opportunity where an indigenous people said, we want to bring you into this or have this experience. It would not be one I would ever feel comfortable seeking out.

That's just, that's my conviction. But yeah, that's kind of where I feel like what we're seeing on that, on that level. I like it. I like the idea of the invitation into something. And I think it speaks volumes of the way we can do medicine. me try to explain that like i don't think well you can go to south america and in meet a shaman and and get that experience however it's it's like a fish out of water kind of because you're not from there you know you're not while you can i'm not saying you can get any

benefits from it and maybe just the scenery is a change for you but you know different types of plants grow in different types of environments and different types of cultures also grow in different types of environments and thus invasive species. We have this problem of invasive species in Hawaii and if you introduce a certain animal and may mess up the ecosystem. So if we can look at that as an example,

might it also be true to say like the different kinds of therapies for different kinds of cultures are significant to them? So I think we can take you can take the mushroom out of South America

and you can use it. But you should apply it to your culture the way it is best for your culture. And I think that like if I talk about the West and I talk about American culture, I think that the problem with medicine we have in the West is the same problem we have with education in the West. And that is that so many people have gone to school to learn. But not many people have gone to school to get experience. When you're a doctor, you go to school for like 25 years without ever practicing anything. And it doesn't matter if you're an engineer or a doctor or a PhD. A minister. Go learn about the Bible. We're not going to experience what it means to be a pastor, but you're going to go learn all the right thinking. Yeah, 100%.

You get away from the very thing you're trying to become. And you learn from a guy who knew, somebody whose father worked with a guy that did the thing. You know, and all you are learning are other people's opinions of what have happened. And that's why it seems that, you know, you see a lot of people get out of school and they go right into a management position. And then a lot of the people are like, do what the fuck are you doing? That's never going to work.

And like, well, that's what it says in the book. Right. Yeah, because that's, that's in a book. And it's someone else's opinion of what happened. But here's what happens when you meet reality. And so the reason I bring all that up is that I think on the topic of psychedelic therapy, someone who has had a lot of psychedelic experience is far better a practitioner of therapy that can help people than someone who has gone to school to learn just psychology or someone who has gone to school to learn about that.

And I think we're at the forefront of that. And if we're going to establish rules or guidelines, I think that you should have to have have, you know, the more experiences, the better. You know, the more difficulty experiences, the better. As long as you came out the other side and you can show, you know, your resume should be like, hey, here is a book I've written on my, or here's a paper I've written on the 24 gram experience I've had. Here's when I've written on 10. Here's how they differ. Like, you should be able to get certified by your experiences, not from an organization that says, hey, I am Maps or, hey, I am the Moonshot Company. And I've had this, I've had this kind of training in psychology. Therefore,

I am someone who should go sit with these people. Like, no, you've had zero experience in this. And I think if you look at that like a vehicle, like there's proper vehicles for proper, like if you're going to go ride in the desert, you should probably have a dune buggy. Yeah. You know what I mean? if you're going to go ride out in a in the fours you should probably have like a two-wheeler that's it has knobby tires or something like that but so yeah i think that at the forefront of integration at the forefront of psychedelic therapy we can use medicines from different parts of the world but we should use them in the way that our culture has found ways to do it and that applies to the good parts and the bad parts about that it's really interesting um you know i think

especially with like integration work yeah the chalmans don't really think about integration because when they're working with like indigenous people like they don't integrate like it's not part of their practice you come in you have your experience you go through the medicine it brings you whatever it brings you and then the community like you live in such this community like it's just so much a part of like what it is and this idea that like you have these people travel they go have these experiences they come home and then they're alone that's for me where the work of integration is so so important is because most people don't have support on how to truly integrate their experiences and integrate whatever it was that happened in that context.

And, you know, I've had, you know, so many conversations with friends and just paying attention to what's happening on the larger scale of culture where people are going, having experiences coming home and then they don't know how to talk about it. Or they're like, oh my gosh, I had this life transforming thing. And that's where I think whether or not we practice the medicine here, I think being a contextualized like integration, like you have to work with an integration coach within your context, within your home. Yeah. Because the medicine, sure, you might be able to go down, have that experience or whatever,

but when you come back, you need someone that can can understand your reality to be able to help you integrate. Because simply like, often I feel like, you know, an indigenous person that might have guided you through that ceremony may not be able to understand how to help you integrate. You know, Gabor told a really interesting story in the Joe Rogan podcast where he was drinking ayahuasca. This is like 2019. And he had invited a bunch of other trauma practitioners to come together, to have an experience, to understand the power of ayahuasca. And he was sitting and they were on their first night of drinking tea.

And there were six shamans, three male, three female. And they basically, after the first night, had an intervention with him and said, you are bringing too much energy. into the space that we cannot do the work that we need to do with the people. Like you're literally blocking the chance. You're literally blocking the work that we're trying to do. And so we need to remove you. And he was like broken. I mean, this is again, only three years ago.

Gabor is like at the, he's like the preeminent dude, right? On trauma and all this stuff. And he can't be in the same space of the people that he brought in. So he tells the story about how one of the shamans said, we will work together just with you, 10 days, five ceremonies every other day. And on the fifth ceremony, he had the breakthrough that he needed to have. And a lot of it was because so much of the,

he had been holding everyone's trauma of 30 plus years of work in his body that he didn't even know how to work with it. And it took five ceremonies to get to that place. Right. So again, a shaman could do something like that. But then the integration had to happen in the context that he understands. So again, I think it's so important that we understand just. like you have to you have to understand the people that are helping you integrate or if you do

decide to work with the coach that they understand you in your context. And there's certain people I would not help integrate because their experiences might be too far out of my own that I don't think I could appropriately help them do the work that they need to do. They need to find someone that could be a little bit closer to their experience. Yeah. I think we need more coaches. We need more people doing this work, right? I think to think that any one person is going do it or anyone organization's going to get it right or anyone, teachers, the one that's right. Like, no, like we need a lot of diversity here. I believe a lot of just communal support and a lot of understanding that we are not working

from scarcity, but we're working from abundance. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that the more people out there trying to help people, the more options there are for people that need help, I guess. Yeah. Maybe that's some circular reasoning, but, you know, I often wonder too. I think that there's something to be said about the idea of leverage.

You know, if you look at psychology in at least the West, part of getting people to change behavior is getting leverage on them, getting them to understand that they need to change. Because if people don't hit the bottom or they don't feel they need to change, then they're not going to change. And that's kind of, at least in my opinion, what leads to abuse or it leads to the masking of the simple. by taking a drug is like, oh, I just take this and feel better. I don't have to really solve it. And one way that, you know, if you can look throughout history that I admire of getting leverage on people is when they come to you for help, you know, you turn them down. You're like, you're not ready for it.

Yeah. And then now they have to be like, what do you mean? I'm not ready. Look, it's obvious you're not ready. And I think that some of the best psychologists and some of the best biographies I've read of people have started off with someone coming to them and being like, look, I need help and the therapist knowing they need help but also having the foresight to know they're not ready and be like look come back come back in a year or you can watch fight club and the guys that makes

them wait outside fall a time you're not ready good leave yet you know it forces them to come to the idea of like am i really ready it forces them to get leverage on themselves so when you when they finally come to you for the work it's pretty much done all you need is to push them over the edge you know, like they've done all the work. They, and then maybe that's another way of doing it. Some people you can sit down and do the work with them. And other people, more stubborn, you need them to do the work before they get there. Well, I mean, I think like honestly, like, status quo is a bitch, right?

I mean, like, that's really what we're talking about is, yeah, as human beings, we're creatures of, of habit and comfort, right? We love status quo. And status quo is the very thing that's destroying us, if we were to really begin to awaken, into what's going on. But I definitely have had conversations and have people come to me that are very comfortable in their status quo and then want to have an experience and feeling like, you know, that experience isn't going to give them what they're looking for because they're not ready to let go to the status quo.

And so if they try to, they have an experience and then they try to maintain status quo, that's going to, that's going to have some really heavy karma for them and some of that carmic energy because they're holding on to the thing that ultimately they do need to let go of. And I think that's so much about what this work is, is, again, if you die before you die, when you die, you won't die, that is, are you ready for that? And if you're not like, and again, great, come to me. What does that look like? Let's have a conversation. And maybe there's a death that needs to happen in your daily habits, right? Maybe there's a death that can be expressed through finding resistance. Maybe there's a death that can be manifested through, you know,

working with cold water and cold water therapy and plunges and this great movement that's starting to happen. Like that's the first thing or make for me like meditation like can you meditate? Can you do that? Like show me that you're willing to break out of your status quo first before you're going to like just jump into the magic pill. Because if you think that if it's good like I'm not willing to do any work. I'm going to take the magic pill. I don't know. Like it might awaken you. It might help you on your path, but I find a lot of times, like, that deeper transformation has to come when we're ready to really let go. How, like, how would you feel?

Like, let's say as something, like, let's say in a couple years from now, like, you're pretty established and you've done some awesome stuff. And I'm hopeful that you continue on that same path and you get more experience and more people come to you, more people, you help more people. But let's, if we just play the what if game, you know, which I know is kind of just a fun game or whatever. But like let's say, you know, clearly with what I've heard so far, you would be able to help people who may have found infidelity in their life or are struggling to be a good father or struggling to be a good person. But would you feel comfortable working with someone

who is like murdered somebody else or like Jason, you know, I'm so glad that we have integrated this theory. I want to tell you that, you know, there's this thing where I've murdered this person. Is there some level of atrocity or is there some level of mistake or is there some level of person that you would be uncomfortable working with? So again, if we're working in a spiritual context, no. There's no one that I would feel uncomfortable working with. If someone was really coming to say, hey, like, I want to do the work. I want to awaken to the divine. I really want to begin to understand some deeper reality.

of spiritual understanding, then I would not hesitate to talk with anyone. Because I know the capacity of myself. I know how dark it is. I know what I did. I've hurt a lot of people, right? I have, you want to talk about Jesus talking about murder?

So brilliant, right? He says, you think murder means physically killing someone. But if you call your brother or sister an idiot, you're a murderer. Like, come on. Like, we all hold that capacity. to cause deep, deep hurt. And I did. I was, I betrayed a love. I did horrible things. So if someone comes to me and they say, I've done this thing, my ability to connect is simply to say me

too. Maybe it wasn't that. Maybe it wasn't murder. Maybe it wasn't this thing, but me too. And and and, but if someone were to come to me for therapy and let's say, you know, PTSD, I mean, I've sat with some vets. I've heard some stories with vets. I've heard some of the atrocities of war and those those are really unique and there's a certain level where I would say you need to be in a community of people that can have that shared experience because I don't have that. I don't know what that's like. I talked to a guy that at one point, you know, he had, you know, it was a casualty of war and it was a child really heavy and he was sitting a lot of survival guilt because it's either him or the kid and he made his decision. And there's no judgment to that.

war is horrible. But I can hold space. I can create love. I can embrace. I can honor. But if they need like spirit like true therapy work, they need to go to, they need to go to someone that can really help. And again, that's the idea that thinking that like, I'm not meant to be all things to all people. I'm not meant to be a healer for all thing. Like my, my threat of healing is going to is in the spiritual realm and having that conversation. But then saying, hey, you need to go do some other work, man. Like there's other stuff. And I can't, I can't support you on that. I think it's a problem of a healer to think that they can, they can heal the whole person.

I can't heal the whole. No one person probably should be your sole healer. If they do, then you probably get like a little bit of a Messiah complex or a guru complex where you think only this person can support or heal you. When the reality is, I think it's a pretty diverse community that needs to come around an individual to provide that healing in a holistic and whole way.

way. Yeah, that's a great answer. I'm glad you answered it like that. I think there is lessons in humility to know that there are certain things you can do and there's certain limits to growth and there's certain limits to healing and even integrating. That kind of gets us back full circle to the idea that you can only help people integrate the things in their life to a degree that you've been able to integrate things in your life. 100%. Thank you for saying. That is, I mean, that is such a truth in all leadership and in all life you can only take people to as far as you've gone and you know like you've got to know that you have to know your boundary that's where as a leader

you need to be humble and your understanding that man this is my this is my edge or this is my boundary and i'm not like when you push past that that's where you get into trouble that's where you start you know that's where you see all the crazy stuff happen is when you now start trying to work with people into the realms that you've not gone and think that you can and and because you're going to like the ego takes over all sorts of weird stuff begins to happen yeah those are the deep waters where if you're you're you're not careful that you hear the siren song and next thing you know you're on the rocks just getting smashed and that's why it's really important for me that I have accountability in my life right my partner she's able to like I trust her a ton I've got other good friends that

I'm like, hey, man, like, you're watching me evolve right now. You're watching this thing. And if you feel like it's starting to get off the reservation, like it's starting to break out of like what seems like me, you have permission to call me out. You have permission to be like, hey, what's that? Like, that seems weird. Why did you say it that way or whatever? Like, that's again, to be a humble leader and a humble servant that is serving people in these ways, you've got to have that accountability. Because when you don't and we've seen it, in our personal lives and my partner and stuff that we've done, like you see the people that didn't have the checks and balances

and they tried to lead people to where they couldn't go. And really sacred containers, sacred rituals begin to get cracked and it can get really harmful. Yeah. Anyone that's looking to do work, this is my biggest encouragement. If you're looking for work, you want to work with the coach,

you need to be willing, you need to grill that person. You need to come in and when you're doing an onboarding call or a discovery call with them, you need to be able to really put them to the test and ask hard questions and then watch how they respond to that. Because if they're going to give any true help to you, they need to know their limits and their boundaries. And if you don't feel 100% comfortable with it or you're questioning, your intuition, even though it's hard because you're trying to get the work and you may not be there like maturity wise, like don't just fall for the snake oil

because there are going to be a lot of people they're going to try to, again, I think, I think I saw some comments. Someone was saying anytime you try to monetize medicine for healing, it gets really dangerous and it does. Yeah. Really does. Look at the vaccines. I mean, in a way, I feel like some some of these plant medicines are in a,

I really feel that they are sort of an opening of your eyes to reality. And sometimes that reality is very difficult. So people, and I think people should know too, like, you know, once you, once you see something, you can't unsee it. Yeah. And so there, I think there are certain people that are not meant to have psychedelics. Like I think that, and maybe for the idea of therapy, maybe there should be a line. Maybe there should be like, okay, if you have schizophrenia or if you have, you know, these homicidal tendencies, like maybe at that point in time, then you. you have to have a prescription.

Maybe at that point in time, you have to go through different levels to get access to it. You know, maybe like, it's sort of like, you know, buying alcohol or something. Maybe you have to have a license, or you have to be a certain age

or something like that. But I, yeah, I think that maybe there's different levels. I wanted to shift gears real quick. I, on the topic of like popular culture and, and literature, I was,

I was talking to a gentleman about books and he says, George, do you ever read, have you read Aldous Huxley? I said, oh yeah, brave new world. And he goes, yeah, that's a great book. He's like, but have you ever read the island? And I go, no, I never have. And so I did, I read it recently. And I recommend everybody read this book.

It's on one hand, you have Brave New World. And then on the other hand, you have the island. The island is, Aldous Huxley wrote this book. And throughout the book, there is this thread of Buddhism, but more importantly, magic. mushrooms. It's almost all about eating mushrooms. And I go, dude, this guy was writing this book in like the 50s, maybe. Wow. The 60s. And he writes about this whole society that lives in the here and now and is constantly having these psychedelic ceremonies. And the first one he describes

is about kids at the age of 12, they go out rock climbing, you know, and they climb this mountain. and then they go into this sort of sweat lodge and then they eat these mushrooms and it's like they have like their first integration ceremony. I'm like, wow. And it just made me think like, okay, where is he getting this from? Well, let's look at some of the indigenous cultures, whether it's the indigenous Americans in North America

or it's some of the shamanic tribes in South America. I think there's something to be said for using, and this may be controversial, but for using psychedelics at a younger age to begin the path of kids at a younger age, to see the world as it is instead of the way we want it to be. What do you think about that? Well, it's really interesting. I, the two have kind of thought about and read some stuff and paid attention to this on some levels,

that the idea that, again, these mushrooms are meant to help us heal our traumas, right? And again, we get so kind of narrow focused into thinking about, like, what is this in service to us, you know, healing our depression, PTSD, whatever. But when we start to look at it, again, for how, like, ancient tribes were using it, you know, the, the Maasai people in Africa, the Maasai tribe, they would have a ceremony with mushrooms before they would go and have, like, the lion killing ceremony. So, like, you know, they're famous for, like, jumping and lion killing and all that.

No one talks about the fact that they were using mushrooms as a way of heightening their senses, of being able to understand the land, of being in tune with what, going on to elevate their ability to hunt. The movie that just came out, it's called The Northman, really looking at, have you seen that? I have not. Oh, man, it's so interesting. But they go through this, this Viking ceremony of the sun beginning to take over to this idea of kingship.

And they go through a mushroom ceremony. And it's, it's this beautiful, it's really kind of dark and really gritty kind of in that Viking energy. but I do believe that there is something about the in our development, the breaking of the ego. And the ego serves us. And I begin to wonder as we start to look at these older traditions that if they had a deeper understanding that if you can break the ego early through a ceremony, and again, the breaking of the ego simply just being that the thinking mind's not in control.

That's not saying your ego's strong. or like your shadow, all that. So I'm just saying we can break our understanding that our thinking mind is in control and we realize something far deeper is going on, that if we can break that at an earlier age through ceremony and ritual and calling out of masculinity, that all that simply means is we're able to start maturing faster. Yeah.

And we can start taking on responsibilities. I mean, the fact that, I mean, man, like for me and my masculine journey, my thing, I've really realized, like, I was a boy for so long until I really had to go through this stuff. And I wonder, like, how much of that was because I, you know, I had certain initiations, but it was kind of weird Christianese stuff. It didn't really get at the heart of it. And so what does it look like to initiate into masculinity at a younger age? And what does, maybe if it's not psychedelics, maybe it's more of like a hard challenge that might

evoke a near-death experience, but everyone's safe. Right. Again, challenging things, like getting an adrenaline rush, getting a dopamine rush, something, being alone, going on a vision quest, spending three nights alone, fasting, you're not going to die, you're going to be okay. You're in protection here. We're going to take care of you. But at the same time, you're going to have to go deeper in yourself than you ever had before.

And what kind of confidence does that bring out? You know, I think there's more and more ritual ceremonies that are beginning to happen. And I think for me, specifically with men, this is a movement that I also am deeply, deeply care about and want to see happening is more men stepping into their true divine masculinity and beginning to explore what that looks like. Yeah, that's really well put. I think that there's been an absence of true masculinity for a long time. And maybe that's because people got afraid of it or maybe that's because we forgot what

it is or maybe it's because it's too hard to control but on a lot of levels it seems like and still is trying to be taken out of people like it's it's it's it's almost like there's this force that doesn't want you know i i forgot i might have been reading this in our friend kevin's book about the caged man and the the caged man you know he tells a parable about a man and the cage and these young kids walk by him and the young young boys are like oh man we want to get you out of here how do we do it and he's like well the keys under your mom's pillow this is the story of iron john okay can you tell that story this this is the yeah you know i want to keep going but just to bring that back like yeah this is the fairy tale of the the the iron man or the

wild man yes um yeah yeah and so these boys they they they in and jump in if you got a better version of it. I just, I just, in passing, it's this the idea of the wild man. Like, there's this wild man that's forced into this cage and he's, he's got a beard, he's all ripped up and he's like, bra, I'm getting in this cage, you know, and like, the little boys walk by and they find some sympathy with him

because they can, you know, they remind him of something that they can't explain, they can see in him something, but they can't explain, and him and them. So, so in the fairy tale, um, the Iron Man comes from the

forest and he was the the king would send out hunters and they would disappear and there's a lot of fear about the forest and then one hunter comes along and says king i can take care of this for you send me out with a with a group of men and he goes out and he comes to the pond that had been the source of destruction and he sees you know what instead of trying to figure out what to do with this pond i'm going to drain the pond so he goes back to the king and he asks for a group of men to come with him with buckets and they begin to drain the pond and as they drain the pond they find the wild man at the center of the pond so they're able to capture him so they capture him and they put him in the cage and they bring him and this hunter says king i have captured the vein of your existence of the wild man

in the forest and now we're going to put him on display at the court of the center court and so there's the wild man in all of his brutality and frustration and anger and the king's son is playing with a golden ball. And the ball accidentally rolls into the cage. And then he wants his ball back, but he has so much fear that he ignores talking to the Iron Man for multiple days. And again, it's this idea that like you're in it, like the thing you want gets lost to the man,

the wild man within you. And so then the boy works up enough courage to talk to the wild man. And he says, can I have my ball back? And he said, if you want your ball back, You have to go to the queen's pillow and underneath it is the key that will unlock me. So the boy has to go behind his mother's back and cut the tie of the mother energy and do something that she would disapprove of by stealing the key and letting the wild man go. And that's what the boy does.

And so then the wild man takes him on this journey from that place. And then the fairy tale goes on through multiple movements of the journey of the boy and the wild man. But the source of unleashing the wild man is cutting the tie with the mother energy. And that tie is represented in the key. Wow. I've never heard it. I got to read that. Yeah. Robert Blyde breaks this down in so many beautiful, beautiful ways. It really began to help me awaken to a deeper understanding of masculinity that is just beautiful. He wrote it in like 89. I mean, really, really fascinating some of the movement that he began within the but in some ways it was really squashed and and the masculine movement you know there's a real shift that took place around toxic masculinity

and just i think a lot of ways men are we're in a pretty tough pickle right now on some levels of how to how to how does tap into our divine masculinity knowing that the divine feminine is going to become you're talking about the return of gaia the return of christ it is going to be return of the feminine It is going to be return of feminine energy. And we're going to have to learn how to work with that, but not in the demise of our own. And right now, we've seen some of that feminine energy really flare up, but it's been in contrast to less masculine. We've got to bring back a symbiotic relationship between the two.

And we got to understand that we work in cohabitation in our own selves. We are both masculine and feminine. And we work in cohabitation of our fellow human beings around us. And the fluidity that that gets expressed without getting attached to a specific way. Yeah. You can see that pendulum swinging back and forth sometime. And I can't tell you, you know, how many times when I was a younger man, how some of my

relations started off like, this girl is so dumb. And she would look at me like, you said, I hate this guy. Yeah. But then next thing you know, we're like, you know, you feel this attraction to him. And maybe that is the denying of the attraction in the beginning. Like, you don't know what this is. So you're like, I don't like this person. There's an odd attraction there.

And it's something you hate. A lot of my, a lot of my best friends even ended up disliking me before they even liked me. Maybe there's something there. It's my best conversation. Some of the most interesting relationships started off on like a really rocky slope. We're like, okay. I think there's a beautiful pattern to that though.

Like the people that you can connect most with are the ones that kind of put you off a little. Because the thing is you have to learn how to get past. that off-putness and then get to the deeper waters with that person and then you can forge an actual bond. But if all we do is hang out with a homogenized group of people that think like us and sound like us and talk like us and look like us, then we get triggered by someone. Like the whole triggering thing, I'm like, God, we need to all be triggered a little bit more. Yeah. You kidding me? Be triggered. Get around people. Listen to stuff that triggers you. Be, get weird. And like, listen to the shit that's like, I don't know if I agree with that.

Because if all you do is listen to the stuff that you agree with, how are you ever, like, you know, Alan, Alan Watts talks a lot about our understanding of the other is in relation to like, the only way we can know the self is in relation to the other, right? Yeah. And so, again, if we get homogenized and we lose our saltiness and there is no other and we're all the same, how can we actually know who we are? You can't. And that's where I think you see so much of an identity crisis taking place right now within society is because we've lost the saltiness. and we don't know how to interact with the other. And all we know is how to act with the same. And we need to invite more triggering, more diversity.

Because if I'm triggered, that's about me. It's not you. Like, my partner triggers me sometimes. And we have these conversations. I'm like, okay, I'm feeling really triggered by this. I got to step back. There's something going on within me right now that's really feeling inflamed. I'm not sure why I'm feeling inflamed.

It's nothing that you have done. So how do I do that work? And that's how you continue to grow. as individuals. Yeah. It brings me to a point that I've learned in my life the only

on the topic of triggering someone or getting upset or even enraged at someone to me like it happens still to this day happens a lot but I try to step back and laugh

because if I can do that it makes me realize that this thing that I dislike about the other person is something I dislike about myself. Yes. And in a way, it's like

greatest gift you can get because the only way you could recognize something and somebody else is because it's something you do. And there's been so many times where I'm like, I know what this person's doing. They're just saying all this stuff because you're trying to manipulate me to do this other thing. But the only way I can even possibly think of that is because that's something I would do. And then all that's left to do is just to have a good laugh. Like, oh, goddammit, that's me. That's me over there doing that, you know? Damn it. That's just a mirror. You're reflecting back to me the very things that I do other people. Like, fuck you for being a mirror.

Is that what I look like? Yeah, that's the energy. And that's the thing. Like, if you could get to that place with people, I feel like we would begin to understand what it's like to have community again. Yeah. And that's what the call. So many people have a longing for that because we've been put in homogenized cultures.

We've been put in these like go live in this brick building and all of us are going to have the same thing and we're going to look the same way. And you see this breakout. But sometimes that breakout, I think, becomes a bit grotesque because it's trying to create other homogenized ways. Like, no, I want you to see me in this way. I want you to remain homogenized. And no, like, can we not just all understand that like we're mirrors to each other? That's it. And honestly, going back to like the Eniogram, that has become the best tool for me to help understand the strategies. That's really all it is. There's nine core strategies that we adopt as

human beings. We can really simple. The Enneagram is beautiful. It runs with numerology. I mean, it's the most ancient tool that's been ever used to help understand the human shadow and psyche. I mean, you go back to like Homer's Iliad, the nine islands reflect the nine archetypes of the human being.

Pythagrium leverage the numerology of the enneagram and the understanding of nine. It's just beautiful, right? One through nine, those are the only numbers that exist. Zero, what is that? You know, 10 is just the addition of one. And nine. Like one and nine, that's it. There's only nine numbers that we think about in the structure of the universe.

And so you start looking at it on these deeper levels and it's beautiful. In the brain, it maps beautifully the different types. And so simply all we do is human beings is attached to one of those strategies. And we say, oh, this strategy works really well for me. I'm going to use this coping mechanism to guide me through life. And your shadow attaches to that strategy. And then you begin to awaken to it. And then you begin to reverse the energy behind it and say, oh, I'm actually a makeup of all nine

strategies. This one works really well for me, but these ones also are important. And it just because a beautiful tool to, and then you see it in other people and you're like, ah, okay, I see the strategy. Good job. You got in that one, you're really good at that strategy. Like, you're dominating that shit right now. Maybe we need to talk about it. Like, we need to dial back a few degrees to understand how the strategy is so inflamed. And yeah, it's just, there's so many beautiful tools in this world that help us do this work. So whether it's psychedelics or the or breathwork or meditation or community or ritual. Like all of this is like in service to us.

And we got to keep following those sparks, the things that light, man, the amount of content that you put out and, and I didn't do a ton of research. I really wanted to walk into our conversation blind. And I'm so glad. It's been so beautiful. Yeah, it's awesome. But I did see just how much, like I can tell you're following a spark within you. The amount of energy that you're putting what you're calling out of people.

people. What you're doing, this work is beautiful. And it's pure because you can tell it's coming from something that is a pure spark within you. And there's a curiosity that you have. And that curiosity is inspiring the people that are in your sphere of influence. And I honor that. And I'm so grateful for it. So thank you. Just as is a way of just honoring the energy and the time that you put into this and the service that it is to people. Well, you're clearly a good judge of character. Man, Jason, I can't tell you how fun this is for me. And I really appreciate it. I could probably talk for another hour or two.

I got another thing coming up. But I really, really enjoy it. And I hope you'll come back. I'll talk to you. But before we sign off, for people watching, I think you got a really good idea of who Jason is. I mean, we start at the beginning. You saw where he came from.

You saw what he thinks. you've gotten to hear some of some of the traumatic experience he's had and how he's dealt with him and how he sees himself and the people around him. I happen to think he is well worthy of helping the majority of people integrate stuff in there. And I'm thankful that you're doing the work that you're doing. I think you're going to help a lot of people. And I don't think you thoroughly understand yet the success in your future. So I'm excited for you.

And I, um, where, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah. So I would say there's probably three main things. Um, everything for me is experience integration. So experience integration.com is my website. My Instagram handle is experience integration. And then my podcast that I host with my partners called telling secrets. And that's really where I'm exploring a lot of this stuff, just playing with different ideas. I've done like, scripture readings on it where like I'll read and like just into it and just playing like right now. There's just a lot of play. There's not a lot of like formalized thing. And it's just saying, hey, here are my smoke signals. I'm committed to like, this is my fire. This is my energy. This is

my spark. I'm going to send out the smoke signals and the people that want to come share fire with me come around. Like let's have conversations. And that's what's happening. I think that's how we connected and just beginning to to go through this process. And so that's probably the biggest thing right now that that I'm doing. I'm focused on. The thing I'm probably most excited about and what will probably begun happening in the next year is a more specific work with men and really going off of a, and this, you know, I don't want to open up another kind of worms, but my next big thing is talking about dad balls and how men, we got to think about our dad energy and what we're doing and intentional fatherhood and really leaning into a lot of elements that go into driving the masculine forward. And so I've,

I've done a podcast on it. I'm starting to put the content out there. And I'm really hoping that in 23, my goal is to find six men that want to do work around dad balls. And really, what does it mean? Again, fathers that have, you know, pretty specific, pretty like, this is your season of life. And, and begin to do the work to develop the masculinity to the next phase. So yeah, that's where things are at right now. I love it, man. I, I really think that. that that is something that can help people. I really think that there's something, you know, about becoming your dad and fighting your dad

and in a way killing your dad, not like physically, but I mean, you have to, so much of young men are living the unrealized dreams of their father. You know, that's an issue, but it's something that's within us all. And we should, like, our friend, I'll talk for another hour on this, man. I got to stop. I'm sorry, I might open up a cano worms on that.

I love it, man. I want to talk about it more, but I got another thing coming. I really am thankful. So ladies and gentlemen, I'll put his links in the site. Check out Jason. Check out his podcast. Check out. I think you're offering a free call if people call you.

Yeah. I have a discovery call. There's a link on my website. You can book a time. And just, again, I don't ever want to commit to something. I love just having a conversation before really feeling out. Is it the right thing for you, the right relationship? Am I the right one?

So, yeah, like, let's have a conversation. If anyone's listening and is feeling like they want to go deeper, book a time on the site and we'll go from there. Fantastic. Well, you heard it here, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for spending time with Jason and I. I look forward to talking to people in the next coming days. And I'm sure Jason looks forward to talking to you.

That's what we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. And then hang on one second, Jay. I'm going to close this off, but I still want to talk to you for a moment. All right. Aloha, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. All right.