TrueLife - Jason Sheffield - Masculinity & The Rooted Rebellion

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Today we speak w/Jason Sheffield. We go deep on the ideas of masculinity, fatherhood, & how lessons on how to fight fir yourself. Jason has a unique space he’s carved out into the world of psychedelic transformation. You can see Jason’s work here:https://www.experienceintegration.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's day is going beautiful. I hope you have something to look forward to, someone to love and something to do. We are here with the one and only Jason Sheffield, who's got his own. podcast telling secrets he's got his own website he's got his own company experience integration all

that will be in the show notes i would invite everyone to go down and take a look at what jason's doing he's doing some really interesting things that are unique in this space he's got an incredible outlook on life and it's a very unique one so i'm excited you're here today jason how are you oh man george i'm well so good to see you man yeah it's been a while man it has i feel like it's been since we stopped the roundtables about six months ago, it seems like it's been a new year. You're blowing up, doing podcasts all the time, putting out a lot of contact. Talking to so many interesting people, man. Like, I'm, yeah, I have questions that I'm like, I almost want to interview you today.

Be like, tell me what you've been learning because you've been talking to some really fascinating people. Man, it's been a whirlwind. And I, you know what it's like for me? I feel like I am sitting down with a master every day and just being a student and listening to people's dreams and their ideas and their strategies to create their dreams. And some of those dreams, I get to drift in that circle a little bit. And I get goosebumps thinking about it. It's been amazing. The amount of what I've learning and it seems to me that I've been given this unique perch to get to see people's dreams unfold in this space.

And as the space unfolds, I'm getting to see. them play a position. It's almost like a psychedelic trip in a way. Right. Right. Yeah, I've been, I feel like, and things here in Colorado has shifted so significantly over the last six months. It's wild what's been going on. And like, I've definitely gotten a lot more plugged in in our town with a psychedelic professional meetup group that's like going strong. And it's been crazy just to see how things are unfolding right now. And it's, it really is the way. Wild West. I mean, Governor Polis just signed Prop 122 into law. So it is now like in the, that, like we can grow, we can gift, we can guide. You know, of course, there's all the things

around the healing centers, but it is a new time in Colorado. And it's going to be really interesting to see how it unfolds. Man, it's a brave new world. I can't wait to get into all of it. But before you and I just start geeking out on everything that's happening and like going down these crazy rabbit holes, there's probably some people. that are tuning in for the first time. And I was hopeful that you can maybe build a bit of a foundation of what, you know, somewhat of an origin story of like what you have going on. I know you got a few irons in the fire,

but maybe you can just start somewhere at the beginning and fill people in with what you got. And then we can move forward to where it's going. Great, great. Yeah. So what is going on, man, is my main thing is working with men and coaching them around their relationships, around their careers, around. their own understanding of their masculinity and using psilocybin as a tool for that journey. And so I've definitely have over the last six months have begun working more publicly with men,

which has been great, right? As the laws shifted in Colorado, I can actually start talking about this stuff and not feeling like it has to be that underground thing and really leaning into doing this work and doing it kind of in the way that I feel like I've learned. the things that have been gifted to me, which is going to be different than how other people might serve medicine or maybe a more therapeutic approach that someone might go through is, you know, not necessarily my stream. And it's been really good to kind of find those boundaries of like, how do we work with

the medicine and trusting that your medicine is going to be the right medicine for those that are going to come to you. And so for me, again, that's a lot of coaching around masculinity, helping men really dive into what does it mean to be a man? How are they showing up? How are they showing up in their relationships? How are they showing up in their lives? And I've had such a beautiful gift of watching men go through transformation in front of my eyes. It is one of the coolest things. Yeah, it's such a gift just to hold space and to watch somebody go through the process as they kind of go through the protocols and the systems that I've kind of built. And it's,

it's transforming. And I'm just as transformed, which is the gift, is how it really challenges you, it really challenges you to show up. It challenges you to make sure that you're doing your own work. And so, yeah, I guess that's a little bit of the context for me. So, yeah, largely in practicing as a coach in that format, which I think is different than like a therapist, really seeing some of those edges of as a coach. Like, I'm going to tell you what I think.

often a therapist won't. They're going to have you go through that process. And I always joke with my guys. I'm like, look, you're going to get what my thing is, what I believe, and then you get to decide for yourself if that feels right. But I'm here to be a truth teller. I'm here to speak that into existence of what I see. And then you get to decide what you want to do with that truth.

And that's such a beautiful place to sit. It is. And it's so refreshing for me to hear in so many ways. And when I spoke about your methodology being unique, for everybody listening, and people that are in the psychedelic space, there seems to be a real connection to the feminine that has begun to emerge in this world. And it's beautiful, and I love it. But for a long time, men in this space have been trying to find their way. If you look back to like the arcade type of it, we often think of men in a certain aspect. But over the years, it seems like men have kind of lost their way.

And I think that you specifically with like a male energy coming into this space and helping other men find their way, that's different than the majority of people I've talking about. You have a men's group where you focus on masculinity in a way that is congruent with femininity and what a way that's congruent with becoming the best version of themselves. Maybe you could talk about like what inspired that. Yeah, man. So there's a lot of work that I've been doing in my life around understanding my own masculinity and what it means to be a man. but something, maybe I'll kind of see if this resonates and kind of how I'm structuring things and what I'm inviting them into. As we think about the masculine, often the masculine has been so deeply connected to the patriarchy, right? And we think about the patriarchal masculine.

And the way I look at the understanding of patriarchy is that at the end of the day, patriarchy will always limit its expression. Patriarchy will always try to come down to a limited way that it's going to express itself. So that's going to happen through power. That's going to happen through control. But whatever it is, unhealthy patriarchy will always be its function is to limit. And so when we look at the masculine, the masculine expression has been so deeply limited by its own patriarchy. So what it means to be a man is like falls into like three categories, really, right? If we think about like as men, again, traditional societal patriarchal Mel, what does it mean to be a man?

You could to wear three colors, right? Brown, black, blue, green, maybe. We only get to wear two types of pants. Think about this. As men in the patriarchy, we can only wear long pants or short pants. That's it. Like, you don't get any other options. You put a dress on, you're seeing feminine.

Like, that's it. Like, we're limited. We get like three types of shirts that we get to wear, right? Like, so the idea of what it means to be a man under this patriarchal expression is and so limited. And then the next step of that is, okay, great. Well, let's think about when we think about the stories behind the patriarchy, power, God, right? We often associate that to sky God. We think about the masculine as being the sun, right? And the sun is very limited in its expression. I mean, the sun does one fucking thing. It rises up, it shoots its light at us, and it sets.

And again, is that masculine? Sure, but is that a very limited view of what it means to be masculine? Absolutely. And I believe for far too long, we've associated these ideas of what it means to be the man as we tie it to these patriarchal structures that are defined by the sun. They're defined by sky god, which from my perspective, the idea of that ethereal being out there and attaching our masculinity is actually the most feminine thing that we could do. It's upside down. It's flipped on us because the masculine at its root is actually deeply grounded in the earth. And we need to start reviving earth God and father Earth. Now, is the earth still feminine?

Of course. It's always a both and. It's always a both end. But for far too long, the stories we've been telling is that, you know, the masculine is in the sky and the feminine is in the earth. And we've got to flip our head around on that and start to see that the earth is deeply masculine. In fact, our friends, the mushrooms, are the most masculine fucking thing that's out there. And this is why I love working with psilocybin and working with mushrooms with men's work,

because we look at the mycelium network and what does it do? It builds structure. It builds connection. It's the most masculine thing. It allows for so much creation to take place, but it binds and connects our entire world. It allows the trees to do with. It allows the trees to do they do. I was reading this great story about how when the mushrooms shoot their spores out, they literally tons of them, like millions and millions of pounds of spores will be sent up into the sky. The clouds and the dew will get connected to those spores. They'll turn into clouds. It'll be in the rain and they replant themselves back into the earth. But all because of their, like rain happens because of the spores. Incredible, right? When we think about them,

Mycelium network and what it does. And also masculine as fuck. What we do? We fucking get hard. We show up. We shoot our stuff into the world. And we let the world deal with it and we move on. That is what it. Again, that's crass. But it's this beautiful picture that I believe that as men, we got to get regrounded. We got to get back into this fucking earth and realize like our masculinity is found in the earth. It's found in the mycelium network. It's found in like when we think about, what we do. We hold the container for the creation to take place. We hold the container for the feminine to come in and do its thing and create and build and nurture. And it's this symbiotic relationship that, you know, and the hermetic tradition, you know, it says like all things are male and female. All things hold this. Yet it's also polarity, but it's the same. And we got to start reviving. That's a little bit of my rant. I'm curious. What does that spark in you? What does that resonate with? It makes me excited to hear that.

Like it's a whole angle that you never hear. It does seem that a lot of the mythology that is in place right now is this idea of Mother Earth giving birth to things. But shoot, man, you look at a mushroom. It kind of looks like a giant dick. You know what I mean? And it does. It's shooting. It's shooting its load into the sky.

And it is just, it's just exploding into the earth. And it's a beautiful way to look at it. It makes me think about the duality. You know, it makes me think like the hermetic tradition. Like there is male and female in all things. And we both have those energies. And I think that that's a big part of the divide it's been happening between male and female. It's like we've been at odds with each other.

Yeah. And maybe it's been part of the structure. Maybe it was necessary. Maybe it's a cycle. But I do see this whole reemergence of one organism, you know, sort of that yin and yang with that dot in the paisley moving around in a circle and i i see that the cycle we're in and i i do think that the idea of masculinity is changing and it's changing for the better so when i hear that rant it gives me a really good feeling inside about hey we're starting

to move into a direction that's positive for everybody we're starting to see a a form of protection that's not toxic and it's not containing people to hold them down it's more protecting people so they can be the best person they can be. How do you, how do, I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, I think that's, that's actually the thing that the masculine needs to begin to, like if men, we're going to start showing up and bring healing to this world and bringing healing to the feminine and, and really start to see those shifts. Again, it starts with each man understanding what it means to be a man.

Right. Right. And so, and then that protection and those things are deeply masculine. Now, that does none of this ever means that the, the feminine isn't protective, right? Mama bear is the most fucking protective thing that's in this world and will destroy any man that gets in her way. So that's the first thing that we got to get out of is the understanding of like either or, right?

It's either this or it's that. That's always going to fuck us over and our understanding of what it means to be masculine and feminine. So we first got to get over that. If we can get over that and we start understanding like how we work together and, again, how we hold both. one of the kind of other pieces that I've been working with is helping people understand that. And again, your body is masculine in nature because it is the container that holds your emotions.

It is the container that holds your spirit. And so if we want to sometimes associate like the emotions are feminine, which I believe emotions are just human, right? We all have emotions. But emotions carry feminine energy in the sense that they can be fleeting. they're not always grounded. Again, the feminine is way more connected to the sky. The feminine shows up in a storm, right? The feminine just fucking comes in.

It rages, it storms. It gives you the life-nurshing things that you need. The sky is deeply feminine. And so when we look to it that way, we can look at it and realize, I have to be very safe in my own body. I have to understand my body. I have to be connected to my body.

And the masculine, so that's the first step. And when that is, when we work with that, we open up the container to hold the emotions and the feminine inside. And that's the relationship that I create for myself, first and foremost for me, is that, okay, where am I at in my body? How am I understanding my body? How am I connected to my body? Because that's the masculine. I need that. I need the structure. I need a container because otherwise, it's all over the place and it's not grounded and it doesn't do anything. It can't create because it's just unleashed. So when we bring in the structure, and the boundaries of my body,

then my emotions, okay, I can begin to work with that. What am I feeling? Where am I feeling that? Where are my body? And now I can become a far more regulated human being because I'm letting the balance of my masculine and feminine, not a percentage of like one is more than another. It's both and I'm letting them be in relationship with each other.

I'm letting my relationship with my emotions and my body be in existence. And when we can do that, man, it's beautiful. But the feminine has, in my opinion, gotten so deep into their masculine because the masculine hasn't created a safe place and safe energy that then they're coming at it from a perspective of how to do this stuff through the masculine. And it's really damaging to the feminine. And the feminine is longing for this. And the only reason I feel like I can say that with confidence is because this is what my partner tells me as the feminine, as the representative of, you know, saying like, yes, this is the thing that we're looking for in the relationship. And again, not about gendered like relationships.

I think there's dynamics that are at play here and how this comes out. But anyways, yeah, it's been really fascinating to see like that's what we do as men. We're protective. We can only do that once we first understand how to first and foremost give it to ourselves. And then we can give it to others. Man, it's really well said. And it seems so fractal to me in that if you can make sense of the relationship you have with yourself in your body and your heart or in your mind and then come to grips with

hey i'm feminine in this part and i'm masculine in this part it seems once you figure that out then you can have a relationship with a woman who's on the same level like you have to build that relationship in yourself before you can have that relationship with somebody else and absolutely you know and and if you can speak to being a father like the masculine is imperative to have a daughter right like you have to be a strong container you have to have that protective energy you have to have that protective energy to build space for your daughter to grow and understand boundaries and understand what is expected of a man because it seems to me the first man that a woman ever falls in love with is her dad, right? And if we have a problem with masculine energy, then we're setting up our

young girls to fail in a way. Is that true? What do you think about that? I mean, I'm figuring it out, man. I got a six-year-old. I'm trying to like, I don't know. It's a very long experiment before I'm going to be able to say that what I'm doing is working. But, let me share a story. Please. And it's, it's something that happened the other week. And it's not one that I'm necessarily proud of, but it's real.

So my, so I had three kids, four between Tiffany and I. And my middle is just in that phase of life where he's pretty like contentious. And he just is very much challenging, right? So he's nine years old and he just loves a challenge. And so a couple, a couple weeks ago,

we were coming home from school, right? we're right at the end of the school year. We're almost to where we're like no homework and we're almost there, right? Just right on that cusp. And I was planning on having a cool night together. We were going to like watch the basketball game. It was coming on a little bit later. So I was like, hey, let's get our chores done.

Let's get our homework done. And then we can just kind of hang out, watch the game, have some time together. So that's kind of my intention for the evening. My middle son, we get home and I'm like, hey, first thing you got to do, bud, is your laundry. Like you got to take care of the laundry. I've already washed it for you. I've taken care of it. I put it in your room. You got to fold it and put it away. That's all you got to do.

About five minutes, 10 minutes go by. I check in on him. And he's like, dad, I'm not doing my laundry. I'm like, excuse me? He's like, yeah, he's like, I already have clean clothes in my drawers. Like, I don't need these. Well, that gets me real frustrated. I'm like, what do you mean you don't need your clothes, son? So I get a little upset. I get a little angry at them. And I'm like, okay, great. Well, if you don't need these clothes, then I'm just going to throw them away, which is parents like the most hyperbolic thing you can say never it's really great but i was like so frustrated right so i went and like grabbed the clothes and i threw him in my bedroom and my daughter is watching me get angry at my son and she starts to cry and she's like daddy don't throw away his clothes and she like tries to like intervene and she's now upset and so i'm like girl he's just being

kind of a pain right now like i'm sorry i probably shouldn't have said that so then i go back into his room. I'm like, he's still not doing anything. I was like, dude, like, go take care of your homework right now. Like, that is what you need to do. And so he's like kind of walking out of the room. He's going down the stairs. And he just turns around and looks at me and he goes, I'm not doing my homework. And at this point, like, I'm like level nine mad. Like if you remember like the freaking, uh, kids Pixar show about their, or whatever was the emotions, right? Right. Anger guy in my head is this fucking like rage to take him next to me is a laundry basket and I pick it up and I throw it against the ground because I'm just so upset. And as it goes against the ground, it might have bounced in his general direction.

Did not hit him. But I was pissed. And in doing that, my bracelet that I was wearing flew off and it broke. So then I'm mad. My bracelet breaks. So I pick it up again and I throw it down to the ground and I go, son, you will go and do your homework. right now like total dad like do not fuck with me voice right yeah so and then i'm like oh shit i did not handle that well right so like he goes down i walk into my room i'm like fuck okay uh yeah that wasn't

right but like i totally lost my shit how are we going to handle this my daughter's crying she's like daddy you shouldn't be that mad at him and so at this point of the story people that might be listening like wow he's a horrible father so i look at my daughter and I hold her and I'm like girl I'm so sorry like I was really angry he made like Jonas made me angry I let that anger come out I shouldn't have let that anger come out I apologize and I'm sorry that I will you forgive me for doing that so instantly like asked for her she's like yes daddy I'm like okay go to my other son my oldest and I'm like bud I'm sorry like I got frustrated I flew off the handle I shouldn't have handled it that way and he kind of looked at me like yeah he deserved it

like, of course, older brother. Yeah, he's like, yeah. His response is like, dad, he wasn't doing his laundry. I'm like, I know, but that doesn't give me the permission to get angry like that. So then I was like, all right, I got to go talk to my middle. So I go downstairs. He's doing his homework, which was good because otherwise, who knows? But he's doing his homework.

And I sit down at the table and I said, bud, you've made me very angry this afternoon. I'm very frustrated with you because I laid out my expectations. I laid out what we were looking to get done. and you just straight up disobeyed. And that really frustrated me. That said, I shouldn't have thrown the basket. So will you forgive me for throwing the basket? And it was very intentional on that because I was not asking for forgiveness for getting

angry. Right. Because anger's natural. Like, we're going to get angry. We get angry as parents. We get frustrated as parents. We shouldn't be asking for forgiveness for a very natural thing. What I needed to apologize for was throwing the basket against the ground.

That didn't need to happen. And that was an unhealthy expression of my anger. That's what I needed forgiveness for. So he said, yeah, dad, I forgive you. And I said, okay. Again, he didn't offer anything like, hey, will you forgive me for being an asshole? Like, no.

Like, that didn't show come up yet. So finish your homework. And while we're watching the game, you can go ahead and take care of your laundry. And that's, and I just walked away. Next thing I know, I'm down, doing making dinner. He gets his homework done. He goes up, takes care of all of his laundry, comes down to me. And he's like, Daddy, I'm sorry.

I had a bad attitude. I shouldn't have done that. And we made up and we ended up having a beautiful rest of our evening. I guess the reason I tell that story is like when I think about our children looking at us, think about my daughter looking at me as this as idea of what it means to be a man, I want her to see not a perfect man. I want her to see a guy that's trying to figure out what it means to be a man that's on the journey. That's always doing it, but is doing it with love and compassion and kindness and is it have too much of an ego that I can't to ask for forgiveness for my children because that's what I would expect for her to find in her partner. That's what I would want for her with her person of whoever she decides to do her life with, whatever way that manifests

for her that she is cared for and that she knows that she will never find a perfect human being, but she will find someone that she knows what it means to be treated right. And that to me is one the most important tools that I could give my children. Man, that's a, I love, I love the authenticity of the story. And I love the fact that, you know, it's a realistic approach to what is possible. It seems that sometimes as parents, I know myself, we get caught up in wanting to be this ideal parent. And there's no such thing as an ideal parent, man. We are, dude, it's a mess. It's a mess. And for anybody who's thinking about having kids, there's no perfect time. And you're going to mess up. But it's all learning. And you're learning just as much as the kids do.

sometimes more. And it's really frustrating to see yourself and your attitude and your crappy attitude and all the little things that you do shown back to you. Like in this mirror image, and you're like, Jesus Christ, I do that. You don't have for me.

I really got to stop that, you know? Right. I'm like, son, like this thing that you're doing, like I get it. Like,

I get it and I understand it. I understand like, because really at the end of the day, as parents and again as fathers as we father our children we are um we're instilling the confidence in our children that they can do what they what they want at the end of the day i really believe that that is one of the best the most important gifts that we give our children and we sell them on the idea of who they are is really the best way that i think it kind of comes down to so it's like we sell it to them by being like yeah like you can do that yeah pursue that yeah go in this

direction. Yeah, let me introduce. Like, we sell them on their interests and whatever. And you can see sometimes where that gets messed up with kids because what they get sold on is the dream that their parent holds and not what their actual dream is. Right. And that's like a manipulative cell, right? Like that's something that you could like, and that kind of fucks you up because then you end up living out your parents dream. And I've talked to some dudes and you see this a lot, I think a lot in athletics where a lot of guys are going so hard because they're living their father. their father had a love for this thing, a love for the game, a love, whatever it is. And so they want that for their son. And then they want their son to go further than they did.

And if their son experienced failure or they don't get that, or even if they do get that success, they kind of realize it was never their dream. It was always their father's dream. And I've seen that theme come up with a lot of men that I've been in conversation with. And so kind of this idea, like, what do we sell our children on, right? Like, what do we give them as like their yes? and what my hope is that I sell my children on their true selves because I see it better than anyone else, right? I know them better than that. So I can sell them on the idea of like, be you, continue to pursue that, be you, be confident in who you are. And that when we can give that gift to them, they will flourish because they have like this understanding that

dad has my back. Like, I got this. And that's to me, I think one of the most beautiful places that our children can be. And a healthy place for them to sit is that confidence that, yeah, dad's got my back. Yeah, that's an important part. I've often heard that mother is the word for God on the lips of a child. But I think you could equally say that protection, dad is the word for protection on the lips of a child. When you're explaining about that process of the, I'll speak to the, I'll speak

to men because I'm a man and I live through that experience where you live the unrealized dreams of your father. For me, it was in wrestling. For me, it was, you're going to go do this thing. I know you hate it, but you're going to do it. You can become the best at it because I was good at it and it teaches you respect and discipline and now you're going to do it, damn it. And, you know, in a weird way that speaks to generational trauma, because some people might not see that as trauma, but when you are forced to live out the life and a dream of something that doesn't belong to you, that becomes a pattern in your life. And that As a parent, you begin to develop.

And if you're not conscious of your patterns, you pass those patterns onto your kids. And I bring this up because it's something that I've learned in psychedelics. You know, I have learned, I can't tell you, like, since I can't tell you how much this has happened to me. And the thing this happened to me is once I began reestablishing my connection to psychedelics, I began finding this pattern of the pep talks or the long talks I've had with my daughter seemed to be pertaining to me as much to her. her you know what i mean i feel like i'll be in the middle of this topic about like listen you got to face problems in life head on otherwise they tend to get you and i'll just pause from it and like jesus christ i should be talking to myself right here you know what i mean have you ever found that happened what do you think about generational trauma and the introduction of psychedelics to see that

pattern and how they get passed on to your kid oh a hundred percent i think so much of that work is when when i heal when i heal myself and i think in so many ways you know psychosovoise you know psychedelics are is that, uh, sometimes that openness to do the work to heal. Um, and so in the healing that I've done around my, my issues with my dad and the work that I had to do, because we all hold a father wound. I wound my children. That is just the reality. Because the, the, to me, this is, again, is that principle that nothing is going to be perfect. So if it's not going to be perfect, I know I'm going to wound them. And it's actually their gift because where, their wounding is, is their opportunity to heal.

And that's how we heal this generational trauma, the thing that gets passed down. The idea to think that at some point, there isn't something to be healed means that all of a sudden we'd be in the utopia and there would be no suffering. And we haven't ever seen that, at least in our recorded history of humanity, of what we understand, we've never had this like perfect utopia. There's always been suffering. It's part of life. And that's actually part of the gift.

is not protecting my children from suffering, but giving them the tools to how to see the joy as well. And that to me is what's important about, so the only way I can do that is if I'm healed, I've healed my stuff and then realize, oh, well, this I'm not going to pass on. So for example, like one of the things that's been really key with my kids is just how open I am in my conversations with him. I didn't get that. My dad felt closed off to me in some ways. He wasn't, you know, maybe as emotionally available to me in some ways that maybe it would have longed for as a kid. And so I'm like, oh, well, that I can, I can be a present for. That I know I can provide for my children. I can, I can do that for them. I can show up. But they're also growing up

in a divorced home. So I'm sure there's trauma and there's like stuff that they're going to have to deal with because I hadn't done some of that healing. And I did, I did cause damage and I did cause hurt. And yet I worked through it. I healed. And now they're getting the best version of me. but they're still going to have to deal with that. And I know that. And I'm not even ashamed of it. I'm not trying to hide it. I'm like,

yep, you're going to have to look at that someday. Like, you're going to need good therapist to help you work through that because that's just the reality. Like, why not? Just like call it what it is.

Like, I'm not a perfect person. And I'm not a perfect father, but I love deeply. And one of the things that I found in my, one of my psychedelic journeys was, again, this idea of our sovereignty and our choice is fathering.

Like we hold so much beautiful power with our choice. And when we take that back and we really own our choice, we then start to show up differently. And one of those choices is fathering. And that my hope is that every dad listening understands that their role as father is first and foremost a choice. That at the end of the day, you don't have to do it. You could walk away.

And I think that's the thing. Every guy has to look at himself in the mirror. and own that I'm making the choice to show up as father. This is not something that I'm forced on because if it's forced on me, then I'm resentful about it. And if I'm resentful, I'm not showing up in the way. The only way you can fully show up is by owning your choice to father your children. And once you own that, stuff starts to just, that's where the healing happens.

That's where you're starting to show up in a different way. Your kids are going to connect to that. but every guy needs to look at himself that's a father and ask himself is like understand the choice that they have they can walk away that's the choice we all hold we could do we could all do it yeah it's a great point you know it uh it makes me think about when if we just stay in this vein of of making a choice and mistakes and fatherhood something that really has helped me out in the last few years is this idea that if you as a father If you don't pick up the most difficult problem and try to solve it, then your kid has to.

And for me, that means like the generational problems of, you know, I came from a divorced home. And, you know, I got to see a broken relationship. And so that was imprinted upon me. And for me, I was like, okay, you know, I saw my dad who I loved to death, but he has destroyed almost every relationship with a woman that he's ever been in, including my sister, my mom and when I look back you know at first I get angry but then I look back at my grandpa and I'm like dude he did the same thing yeah and then probably his dad and so it kind of takes away that anger when you pan back and get that thousand foot view and you go oh

this is a pattern oh shit I see it in me and then you think to yourself okay I see the pattern which is identifying the problem which is the first step second step is making a choice to do something about it okay I see the pattern What am I going to do about it? Then you make that choice to do something. And then that third step is taking action to actually begin it. And then you form this new pattern of doing it. But I would like to invite everybody, every man is listening to this to understand.

You have to take on the stuff that's scary because if you don't, then you force your kids to do it. And whether that's coming to grips with a mistake that you've made, whether that's coming to grips with a problem that you have, be it addiction or, you know, maybe it's porn or maybe it's being divorced or maybe it's being abusive in some way emotionally or verbally. Yeah, those things all suck. But guess what? You have a choice to change them today and you can begin changing them today. And if you do that, you make your kids life a million times better because you stop that pattern right there. And it's a powerful thing to think about. What would your thoughts on that? Well, I think it's such a beautiful picture because a choice was

made that brought in the generational trauma. Somewhere someone decided that that was their choice, right? That they were going to be the alcoholic or that they were going to be the abuser or that whatever. And again, yes, some of those things get passed down, but I really believe at some point someone made that choice. And I think that's where we see these cycles of like great seasons of fathers and you can see how it gets passed down.

And then at some point, someone makes the choice that then that choice gets passed down. And so what we have to realize is the power that we hold to heal. And it's almost like if we really look, and this gets real far out there psychedelic-wise, but if we can play with the idea that the time doesn't exist and all things are happening at all times. All choices are being made at all times. Then what's happening is that choice is getting passed on to me and I have full sovereignty to make a different choice. And when I make that different choice, I actually heal the trauma going back to when that choice,

I fix their wrong. That's the karma, right? I'm making right what they did wrong. And that's our invitation. That's the work that we're doing is like, oh, wow, this pattern has been alive in my life because it was passed on and my dad didn't make the choice. But you know what? My dad made a lot of choices that didn't pass on certain traumas that he received.

So what a gift. But he wasn't perfect. So in the same way, like he only knew the choices he could make that he didn't want to pass on in what was present for him. But was a lot of things maybe repressed and not present? Sure. So did that get passed on to me? Absolutely. Did I do that work and I'm getting better? Yes, am I making different choices at an earlier age like where my dad was at 38 compared to where I'm at completely different? And yet I see where my dad's at at 68 and now we're kind of making similar choices, right? He's now kind of thinking about stuff and some unique ways. I'm just 30 years ahead of them. And so my hope is that my son is 30 years ahead of me. that at 12, he's making new choices. He's doing things differently. That's the karmic cycle.

That's the thing that we're doing in life and how we can heal traumas. And now are there certain things that my son's going to have to figure out and choices that he's going to have to make? Absolutely. Because that's life. We have to make choices. We can't ever do that for our children. I came out of the church in the evangelical Christian world. And as a pastor, one of the most damaging things I saw that,

I think the church really does is this perception that we have to protect our children. And again, we've been talking a lot about protecting, right? This protecting energy. And it's again, a bit of a paradox here, be that we have to handle because do I want protection for my children? Of course. Am I going to protect my children? Of course. Do I want my children to have to experience suffering? Yeah, I do. I want them to, they have to go through that. They're going, I can't protect them from it. I've got to give them the tools. I got to be there in loving support. I'm going to be able to hold space, but I cannot protect them from suffering.

And I think a lot of parents put themselves in a pretty like no-win situation where they feel like they're failing because they put in their minds that they have to protect their children from suffering. And that's just not it. Like our kids are going to suffer. Their suffering could happen through a bully at school that I have no control over. The suffering could happen from falling down and skinning their knee. like they're going to get hurt.

And so my job is to one hold space for them. So when they are hurt, that they know that they can heal those pains. So because that's, again, that's what we do as humans. We heal. It's a beautiful thing. Our bodies heal itself.

We have all the tools we need to heal. We just need to learn how to use them. So that's what my hope is in giving my children, the tools is to help work with the suffering because I can't protect them. Yeah. So let if we can dive a little bit deeper, on that. When you give your children's the tools to help with suffering, is one of those tools explaining to them that there's a lesson in suffering? Yeah. Yeah. So we do church with the kids

because somewhere in me is still a pastor, even though it may not be like in the Christian tradition. So I like doing church with the kids. And we talk about, I have seven secrets of the universe that I'm teaching my children. So seven secrets that to me are like the most important things about who we are, spirituality, and are the lessons that I want them to learn. And I have the lessons that I want them to learn. And one of those lessons is all of life is great suffering and great joy. And so to to share this lesson, we were, we had a, we have an ice bath out, a cold plunge in the backyard. And this was back in, I don't know, maybe February, March. It was a sunny day, but it was cold outside. And so we went out there and we sat around the ice bath. And the kids like, they just

put their hands in and saw who could do it the longest. Who could sit with the suffering, who could sit with the pain and experience it and be present with the pain and work through it with their breath and understand that on the other side of that pain, there's something else. And could they find it? And of course, they're kids and they did it for like 30 seconds and then they got cold and whatever. And again, it's this ongoing lesson. But then this is where I know it's working. We are watching Lord of the Rings and Gandalf is giving this like lesson to Frodo before he goes down to the bite the ballrog and disappears. And he talks to the lesson with Frodo, like, you got to do this stuff, man.

Like, you're the only one that can carry the ring. You're going to suffer. No one else can do this for you. And my son pauses it. And he goes, dad, you sound a lot like Gandalf. And I was like, game over. Like, I win. I win.

Ring the bell, man. He's like, you're right, son. What's up? But again, it's just like, that's the stuff, right? That means they're getting the tools, they're understanding, they're drawing, they're making the correlations. to where they can learn these lessons that, yeah, life is suffering. So now, you know, they get in the cold bath or something happens or whatever.

They now have the language to talk about what it is that's going on. And that's sometimes the tool itself, right? It's just the language. Because if we have the language, then we know how to process it. We know how to work with it. And we can learn what we need to do. So to me, that's a lot of times the tools. You know, other things that we talk about, you know, breath work.

We breathe with the kids. I have them be able to center. We talk about grounding elements and, you know, things that they can do when they are feeling those things. They are feeling the suffering. And it's never like it's never done. Like I'll be teaching them these lessons for the rest of their lives in some way, right? It's their job to learn it. And, you know, that's kind of the great experiment.

Yeah, it is. It's a great experiment. It's a gift on both sides. it's it's almost indescribable to think about the the way in which we're tested and how fortunate we are to be tested and there's a test inside a test you know i one test that i that i want to get your opinion on is if we look back at mythology or scripture there's often this sort of archetype and i think it i know what happened in my life it probably happened in your life and it seems sounds like it's already happened in your son's life and it's this idea of the

father or the son having to fight the father you know if you look at the prodigal son where he leaves or if you look at like the greek mythologies like zeus's sons coming back to get rid of him and kill him and in some ways like i i see i know that i had to be in a fight with my father you know and i had to beat him on some levels and it felt good to beat him on some levels and he fought valiantly and i'm sure that he was happy when i beat him on some levels on some levels i may never beat him on But what do you think about this idea of the son having to fight and win against his father? Oh, 100%. I love it.

I, like, and I've actively engaged this with my boys. My boys love to wrestle me. They love it when I'm like, let's throw down and, like, wrestle. Because they can test their strength against me. Because they can hurt me. My 12-year-old, dude's strong. Like, I get a kick in the face from him and, like, that hurts. Yeah.

But when we wrestle, we set Brown jries. We set some container, right? Because without it, then that energy can get real feminine real fast, right? I'm angry and I'm fighting and like it's rage. No, let's teach like, let's teach it from like the container. So we set the rules. We set the ground rules. And then I always joke with them like, you cannot beat me.

Like you tried, try to beat me. And so and then both boys will gang up on me. And like I don't hold back. I mean, like, of course I'm not hurting them. But like I get, I let them feel my strength. I let them feel my strength. weight. I let them feel what is it like to push against and like struggle and fight against something that's bigger than you. And I let them, and I tell them, test your strength against me.

I can handle it. I'm stronger than you, at least right now. Someday I may not be, but I'm stronger than you now. So I believe that, yeah, as the father, like we have to let our children fight against us. We have to let them become themselves. And they become themselves through the fight. And so like, like, but my son, my oldest, he loves to run. And he's like really freaking good at running. And so we did a 3K or no, sorry, we did a 5K over Thanksgiving. And I kind of was like, whatever. Like I'm not going to train for this. I'll just gut it out. I can run a 5K. Like I'm pretty like I'm in shape. I'm working out. Whatever. But my son just got done running cross country. He's like, he's pretty on it. He's running like two or three miles on his own, like

getting up early. And I'm not doing any training. the dude beat me by three minutes on the race day like he just kicked my ass like he was and i told i was like son you run your race like you run what you need to run do not worry about me go he beat me that day and i i honored him i was like way to go dude you beat me you were so much faster like i'm dying here and you just own that i am so proud of you like good job man like good job but then the other day we were riding our bikes and like biking is my thing and i killed him man we got on this hill and I just freaking let loose and I was like I will wait for you at the top son remember who is still king on this situation right yeah that's the game like we play this game

with our children and I genuinely believe like in mythology and one of the great myths that I love around the masculine is a story from brothers grim called iron john and it was Robert bligh actually wrote a book called iron john looking at this myth and in the myth the beginning of the myth at least is this story about this kind of wild man that works his way into a kingdom. You have to go read it to see the details, but he's in a cage. And in the kingdom, he's caged up, and the king's son sees something in him, but he doesn't interact with him. One day he's playing in the courtyard, and he loses his ball, and it rolls up to the wild man,

covered in mud, and just like crazy kind of giant-esque, and he grabs the ball. And he says, you have to go get the key from your mother if you want your ball back. And the boy, like, he's like, let me out and I'll get you the ball. And the boy waits. And in the book, it's like three days. But I think in our lives, we can think about this concept that the thing that holds the golden ball, the thing that you want, the thing that kind of defines who you are, this wild man is holding it within each of us. And to unlock it, we have to go steal the key from our mother. And the key was hidden underneath the mother's pillow.

the queen. And so the boy sneaks into the room, steals the key, lets out the wild man. The wild man grabs them up and carries them off onto their journey where this boy becomes a man. And I think it speaks to this thing that like every man has to steal the key from their mother and they have to leave their father. You got to walk away. And I think as parents, we got to encourage that stuff. Like it's the, it's the father's problem when it becomes like, oh, son, you can't be. And they think their entire lives, they got to be. be like the shit for their kids. Like, no, I am training my children to no longer like need me.

But they will always need. It's that paradox again, right? It's a both and. But like I want them to be fully like, I want them to fight me. I want them to leave me. I want them to go figure out who they are. Because otherwise, what are we doing? Right?

Like I'm just coddling them for their entire lives. And then like, and I think we've seen that in society. And I think a lot of our ailments of what was going on in our world is, this kind of weird thing that's been going on where parents are fighting their kids like battles, right? They're not letting their children grow up. So anyways, that's a bit of a rant on what you were saying. But yeah, I think the fight is crucial. And I think every person must fight their parents and everyone.

Again, you want to talk about the scriptures. It talks about the idea of the concept that every man must leave his father and mother. And that's the idea of marriage, right? I understand a marriage can be so weird. but one of the concepts of marriage I think is quite beautiful is that it is a severing. It is saying, I am now my own family. I am my own thing. I now have my person that I'm caring for.

I am now responsible to them. I am no longer responsible to this. So thank you. But even in the story of the prodigal son, the son comes back to the father. And what does the father have? Open arms for him. Love and gratitude. And yet it was the oldest son who was around the whole time that got pissed off at the

dad at the end of the story. And we don't always think about both boys in that story, but there's a lesson in each of them and how they handled what that parable is telling us. Yeah. Maybe you could talk about the other son, like for people who may not know, people heard about the prodigal son. Maybe you can talk about the lessons in the other son. Well, so like, again, the general premise of the prodigal son is, you know, kid goes to his father, wealthy situation, basically says, dad, I want my inheritance now, which in that time would have basically been like, dad, you're dead to me. And so like, he's like, I want it all. And so the father basically said, okay, if this is what you want, I'll give it to you. And so this younger son gets his

inheritance from the father and he goes off and he squanders it and in a matter of time. And the next thing you know, he's literally eating the food with the pigs. And he has this epiphany of like, my father's servants eat better than me. I'm going to humble myself and go back home. And maybe my dad will just take me on as a servant. And so he goes back home and the father welcomes him back with open arms. Well, at that point, we kind of get introduced to the brother, the older brother who basically is like, what the hell, dad? Like he basically said, fuck you, you're dead to me, went off and spent all your money. And you're now, like the father gives him a ring. That's one of these symbols that's really beautiful in the story. He gives him back his family crest, right? Like you're now back in the

fold, son. Even though you said I'm dead to you. I forgive you. The older son couldn't handle that. The older son got mad and is like, what about me? And I think this is so applicable. And we see this a lot with older, I'm sorry, firstborn children. A lot of us firstborns. I'm a firstborn.

Where do you fall on the line, George? I'm the baby, man. The baby, man. You're the one that's all up. Yep. That's exactly. Or it's like there's this thing that we inherent from the father. Like, we're the first.

And so there's a weight to that. And so the firstborn doesn't always know how to handle the fact of grace and acceptance and coming back. And so the lesson there in the firstborn is like one, like he never like went to go figure out his own stuff. He'd been in the shadow of the father the whole time. And so he didn't have any of these lessons or these tools on how to like love his brother and accept him back into the family and welcome him back, even though his brother did a really bonehead thing by saying, you know, you're dead to me. Yeah, it's, you know, Jay, even though it's only been six months since I've last talked to you, I feel like I've learned so much in our talks, man. And I can, I want everyone to go and check out what you got going on because I can see the lessons you're teaching to people in the worlds of masculinity,

in the worlds of family, in the worlds of relationship. And it's a world of difference, man. I'm so stoked to get to see the beginning process and to see how far and how, awesome it is right now. Maybe I know we're kind of coming up on a little bit of time, but I think you've kind of built a really good foundation about what it is, the people you're inviting to come and study with you. Maybe you could talk about some of the latest transformations and some of the latest projects that you have begun doing with this people and how they've moved since you've started it. Yeah. So one of the new things that I've kind of launched and we'll be

kind of starting in this next month is really leaning into this idea of like talking through the rooted rebellion is what I'm calling it. Because I think part of this fight and part of this stuff that you're talking about as well is in men is that we need to get in touch with our rebellion and being rebellious and fighting against something. I think more men need to lean into the rebellion. But the problem is when we think about rebellion, it can go one or two ways. If it's unrooted, then it gets angry, it gets destructive, it gets mean.

it's aggressive in the worst ways possible. And we've seen that. And I think a lot of times you look at like rebellious teenagers and especially men that like rebel early in their life against their situation. It's basically guys that don't have enough guts to like go take the key from their mom. So they like do it in a weird way and they like rebel and all this stuff. And the invitation that I want to invite more men into is their rooted rebellion. And being able to really ground down.

And the first like the first place of rebellion is. is knowing where you say you're fuck you at the end of the day. And really like, like, like, you're no. Like no more. Like no. And actually that no is one of the most masculine things that we can do. We talk a lot about, especially in the psychedelics space. And I see this a lot in like the, especially the feminine energy of like your fuck yes. Right. And I was in, I was thinking through this a lot. Like what's your fuck yes? Right. Like, God, get touched with your fuck yes. That's awesome. But what I realized is that for a lot of men, they first, and this was me, I actually had to say no. My first like, fuck you was to no longer wanting to be married and choosing something for me where I said, no.

Like, I don't want this and I'm going to choose, I'm going to choose me in this situation. That was really fucking hard, but it was a rebellious act, right? Yep, yep. More men, like, we need to tap into that no. And we all know it. Like we know like where we're kind of like we know our no, but then we kind of get lazy about it or we get resentful about it or we don't show up. And and that kind of really manifests again and like some more like you're rebelling against your life because you can't say no. So you get like sucked into like always having to watch the game or you spend your time on fantasy football or you're gaming.

You're like you're just and again intrinsically none of those things are bad. But it's when you are like literally rebelling against your life. because you can't say no. You can't say something like, hey, woman, no more. This is, this can't happen anymore. Children, no more. This is no, like there is a boundary and I'm holding it. Or something in their own lives, their own bodies, right?

Being able to be like, like this situation, yeah, no, I'm doing something about it. I'm fucking going to the gym. I'm waking up. I'm taking like no more. And on the other end of every no is the yes. And that's where the transformation lies. because when we can say no to something, we clear it out of our lives and we get rid of it. And we're able to purge.

And again, that's the beauty of like medicine work and purging and why it's so important is because you're energetically and sometimes physically clearing space so something new can come in. And you cannot find your fuck yes until you know your fuck no. So that's how transformation happens. That's the lesson that I've been learning. and inviting men into and I've been watching it happen before my eyes where it's inviting people and they're like, where is your no?

And that's so much like coaching work and what I'm leaning into is like helping people and giving them permission to say it because damn, it's hard. Like I was with the guy and I like he was, I knew, I knew his no and we were doing some medicine work together and we were in the journey and he like admitted something and I saw it. And then I was like, say it. And he couldn't. He couldn't articulate it. And it was like, again, it was so empowering to that masculine to be like fucking calling it out and be like, look at me in the eyes and I want you to say it.

I'm giving you permission to say the thing. You never thought you could verbalize. Fucking say it. And came out. Just beautiful, man. Like wash them transfer. Like just the power of saying your no. And then once you get that out, who we're clear, right?

Like we have space now that there's space, okay, what are we going to work with here? How are we going to find that? Like, how are you going to lean into what is your yes? But men, I think women will are far more in tune to like knowing what their fuck yes is going to be. And they need to lean into that. That's the feminine energy of like this thing is like, yeah, go after your yes. You know it.

You're far more in tune with your body. Your womb knows it. Your pussy knows it. Like, yes, your yes, go after it. Men, we got to know our no. first. We got to rebel. We got to, like, kind of put that up. We got to ground ourselves into that masculine energy of the earth. When we do that, we can rise out of it and then really step into that power. Man, Jay. How does that land? Dude, I got to sign up for a class, bro. I got to come and sign up for

a class over there, man. Like, I love it, man. I really admire the method. And one of the things people may not know is that your classes, what you're teaching comes from lived experience. Like, you're creating this process as it unfolds. And I think that that is real teaching. That comes from the heart. That comes from lived experience. That comes from real tragedy. And I think that that's what a real teacher is, is, you know, it's not going and sitting in a room where you learn from a book that was written by a guy who had a friend that knew someone that did something. It's sitting down and talking to someone and then having your own experience with someone that can amplify it. You know, and I think that's what you're doing, man.

It's fucking beautiful. I love it. And I'm stoked to hear about the transformations. I'm stoked to see someone building something for men, you know, by men. I think it's awesome, man. And the way I've been talking about that, and I think what is so key for anyone that's looking for coaching or looking to do work with someone is, um, you better ask them for their receipts.

Show me how you pay. Because you're right, George. Like I got receipts on everything I'm talking about. I know. This is my lived experience is my life, man. I got the receipts. And there's a difference in someone and I feel it in my life. Like I'm working with a coach right now to do my own work in my own body.

Like a health movement coach has been really cool. But like the reason why I knew wanted to work with him is he had the fucking receipts. It wasn't like he had read some book or gone through some nutrition thing. like he told me his story and I'm like, oh man, like you, you got the receipts. And I think too many people follow like a guru or a coach or someone that they had training. They learned it, but they don't have the receipts. And the thing is, is we all have receipts for what we've paid for. Those are our life experiences.

And that's what we got to first learn how to own. Like your power is in those receipts. And so when you start showing up to your life and you start calling things out and you start like telling your partner, no, you start showing up for your children this way. The only way that stuff works is if you've got the receipts to prove it. Like when I set structure for my children, the only way that they're going to believe it is if I have the structure in my life. They see me getting up at 545 to go to the gym.

They see me in the cold plunge doing the work. They see me showing up and doing the dishes. Like that's the receipts of what I'm teaching them. Otherwise, all I'm teaching them is ethereal and it's not grounded. And so that to me is one of the most important things. So for anyone that's like, and this, this is also like in the medicine space where I feel like you're saying kind of feeling more unique. Like for me, like I have zero desire to like go after like any more certifications or any more.

I mean, I'm a lifelong learner. So I don't there's no one there to be ego. Like I don't need to learn anything else. But I also have the receipts on my method and the work that I've been doing of taking them deeper and giving them bigger dosages and, you know, the kind of non-traditional therapeutic stuff. Like if someone, and a lot of people, I hope people hear this, a lot of people do need therapy. They do need to, and psychedelics can be beautiful in the assistance of their therapy. But psychedelics is so much more.

And one of my biggest fears is the trauma, like the traumatics kind of movement. I don't have you heard that term thrown out there. Interesting. This idea that like traumadelics, like, again, like we're seeing so. so much conversation around psychedelics around healing trauma, PTSD, anxiety, depression. And yes, like, of course. But for me, like, there is so much deeper a place of healing. If we want to call it soul, like really connecting to the grounded thing.

And I think sometimes these therapeutic methodologies are not allowing people to go to that place. they're not allowing to heal in relationship, which I think is crucial. They're maybe putting on the eye masks and they're just going within and they're not connecting visually with their person as the guy that's in the room with them. And they're just going in their own head. And maybe they're doing some talk therapy. But for me, like, it's relational. It's healing.

It's there. We are connected. We are making eye contact. I am in this thing with you. Like we're healing through relationship, not just healing. yourself. Like, can we do that? Maybe I really believe in the more shamanistic traditions that we heal with relationships. We heal with that person and that connection. And we heal through bigger dosages that when we go past that threshold of five, six grams and we go into those deeper waters,

again, with the proper space, set and setting and people having work, you know, I don't think that's the right thing to do right off the bat. I think people need to ease themselves in there. Got to say all that stuff. But I have taken guys that haven't had any medicine experience into like the just right off the bat doing a five gram journey and watching them transform before my eyes, watching them go through the healing. And then at lasting, the client meeting I was just in before I jumped on was one of my first guys that I went through that I took a journey with and guided. And you're asking about the proof, right? The transformation. This guy just went through one of the most extreme things of watching a suicide happened before him.

And like, it was like a week ago. And he was just sitting with me processing it. And I was able to just encourage him of like, brother, you are in the healthiest place you've ever been. You can do this. You can walk through this because of all the work that you've done, you're showing up in this beautiful way. and it is incredible and it's courageous,

but I am confident that you can walk through this storm. And because of everything that he had done and the work we had done, he just broke down. He's like, you're absolutely right. He's like, I have all the tools I need. I can do this. And that's this thing. So like maybe the last story I'll share as we kind of wrap up,

but one of the themes of this rooted rebellion that I found in nature that's so beautiful is, have you ever heard about? Buffalo do with a storm? No. So, so fascinating. Yeah. So when the herd, a buffalo herd senses a storm coming, they go on the move and they actually run into the storm.

Cattle, they don't. Cattle have been so domesticated over time that when the storm comes, they run away from the storm or they hunker down and just sit. Therefore, when a storm comes in, you watch a lot. of cattle get taken out because either it's like a bad storm. You think about being on the plains, all that snow, they get buried down. They get cold. They freeze to death. Or they run away from the storm, which only prolongs it because you're never going to outrun the storm. The Buffalo knows because they're free because they're not domesticated. They know that in their freedom, their choice is to run

through it. Yeah. And that at the end of the day is what all of us hold. Storms come. Again, we've been talking about this theme of suffering and whatever and that we got to be like buffalo and not cattle and we got to run into that storm but we can only do that when we realize we're free to run into the storm that we're not been domesticated like the cattle and far too many people are way too domesticated these days uh that when the storms hit they don't know what to do and we got to follow that beauty of the buffalo and run in it and run through it and survive it and they know they don't get taken to the herds don't get taken out by the storms because they know exactly how to handle them yeah it seems to me like part of the part of the awakening is for a few of the buffalo

to go and rewild the rest of us you know and it just takes it just takes a few people to show them the way the same way it takes a mentor to show someone they have the tools and i think that's what you're doing jason i really admire the conversation today i really admire what you're doing and it when I do look at the different types of branches on the psychedelic tree, this is the first time I'm noticing this branch that's moving towards the world of masculinity, man. And I want to say thanks for that. It's awesome. And I really enjoy it. And I think it's going to help a lot of people.

I know you've already helped a lot of people. And I love the fact that you have the receipts, man. I love the fact that you welcome people to come and challenge you. Whether it's your son or whether it's someone coming to you for help, you're like, what up? What? What you want? You know? I love it, dude.

I love it, man. So I know you got, I know you're coming up on time, but maybe you can share with people where people can find you, what you got coming up and what you're excited about. Yeah, man. Well, I'm excited to announce. I've transitioned my website over to the rooted rebellion. I am rebranding.

We're moving in that direction, although experience integration, it's all the same. People will still find that. I'm working on the website right now. It is still live. If people want to stay in touch with what I'm doing, I do have a place where they can sign up for a newsletter. So you can drop an email.

in there. It's pretty bare. But the next thing I'm going to be doing is actually holding space for a circle, probably a virtual circle. It'll be the third Thursday of the month. But I'm going to be basically opening it up for men that want to start coming in and having a conversation about the rebellion. What are they feeling? Where do they need to rebel? Where is this alive for them? No intentions of teaching anything. No intention. It's not a webinar. It's a space. It's a circle to come around and share if people have had medicine experience is awesome. If you haven't, that, that's not it. But it's about letting men that feel sparked by this idea of I want to know where my

fuck know is. I want to hear what that's like. I want to hear other people are working through that. So that will be starting. My intention is probably to be doing it at like 8 p.m. Mountain Standard time late enough for guys, get kids down. If you've got a family or whatever. So kind of, you know, for most people, I think that'll be late enough, you know,

Pacific people might still be a little bit early. But yeah, so that's, that's what I got. Man, it's awesome. It's awesome to see it growing and it's awesome to see the space unfolding. Are you going to be down in Denver this June? I am not going to be in Denver for the psychedelic comments up there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm kind of staring clear of it, man.

I don't know. Like, I'm pumped for what's happening in the space. Right. I think there's a lot of really, really good things. But as here in Colorado Springs and anyone that's in Colorado just know like there's psychedelic professional meetup groups that are happening. Right. Get involved with them.

If you're in this space, there's in Denver, Fort Collins, Boulder. We have one here in Colorado Springs. And I love it. And I love all of the ways that the medicine is getting to express itself right now. It's happening through therapy. It's happening through these other realms. But for me, I've really felt like for I kind of found my lane. and it's in this work.

And that's where I'm going to hang out for a little while. Yeah, it's a great spot, man. I think you're leading the space in a lot of ways. But I've been holding you too long. You only had an hour. I'm keeping you until an hour and 10, man. I love you, Jay. You're an amazing person.

You're helping a lot of people. And I'm really looking forward to some of the things that you and I have in the works and learning more about the rebellion. So that's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, hang on one, I'll talk to you. But ladies and gentlemen, for the listening audience, I love you guys. I hope you having a beautiful day. Griggs, I see you over there in the chat, my friend.

I love you too, man. Thanks for doing everything that you do. You're an amazing human. And that's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, aloha.