TrueLife - Jessica Tracy - Paper Masks & Rattles

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️ Welcome to the show, where today’s guest will not only expand your mind but also guide it through the labyrinth of healthcare innovation, Jungian wisdom, and the transformative power of psychedelics.Jessica Tracy is a trailblazer in the realm of mental health advocacy and psychedelic integration. As the Founder and CEO of The Sage Collective, she’s on a mission to bring the extraordinary potential of psychedelic-assisted therapies and mindfulness practices into the very fabric of our healthcare system. Think of her as the bridge-builder between ancient wisdom and modern medicine—a Sherpa guiding us up the mountain of transformation, one insurance policy at a time.Jessica’s journey is as multifaceted as a kaleidoscope. With nearly 20 years of experience spanning group insurance, clinical genetics, health tech, and psychedelic therapies, she’s been the strategist behind innovative healthcare delivery models that make the inaccessible accessible. From underwriting and analytics to helping health systems build centers for psychedelic healing, she’s proving that even the healthcare industry’s shadow side can find its way to the light.Her work with the Ketamine Task Force and various clinical certifications in psychedelic therapies speaks volumes about her commitment to bringing these life-changing modalities to those who need them most. Jessica isn’t just advocating for change—she’s orchestrating it, weaving mindfulness and psychedelics into the fabric of insurance and healthcare.Fresh off a retreat and armed with her Jungian toolkit, Jessica is here to remind us that where there’s a shadow, there’s also potential for illumination. And if you’re wondering what lies beneath the surface of insurance and healthcare bureaucracy, don’t worry—Jessica’s already explored those depths and brought back a map.So, let’s dive into the psyche, the system, and the stunning potential of a world transformed by her work. Welcome, Jessica Tracy!www.thesagecollective.cowww.enthea.comhttp://linkedin.com/in/jessica-tracy-gbds-clcs One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearers through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Live podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back.

enjoying this beautiful Friday morning. I've got a great guest for you today that I think everyone's going to enjoy. So welcome to the show where today's guest will not only expand your mind, but also guide it through the labyrinth of health care innovation, youngie and wisdom, and the transformative power of psychedelics. Jessica Tracy is a trailblazer in the realm of mental health, advocacy, and psychedelic integration. As the founder and CEO of the Sage Collective, she's on a mission to bring the extraordinary potential of psychedelic-assisted therapy,

and mindfulness practices into the very fabric of our health care system. Think of her as the bridge builder between ancient wisdom and modern medicine, a Sherpa guiding us up the mountain of transformation one insurance policy at a time. Jessica's journey is as multifaceted as a kaleidoscope with nearly 20 years of experience spanning group insurance, clinical genetics, health tech, and psychedelic therapies. She's been the strategist behind innovative healthcare delivery models that make the inaccessible accessible. From underwriting and analytics to helping health systems build centers for psychedelic healing, she's proving that even the healthcare industry shadow side can find its way into the light.

Her work with the ketamine task force in various clinical certifications in psychedelic therapies speaks volumes about her commitment to bringing these life-changing modalities to those who need them most. Jessica isn't just advocating for change. She's orchestrating it, weaving mindfulness and psychedelics in the fabric of insurance and health care. Jessica, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And I thank you for the amazing introduction. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it rings true. I see you have been on this whirlwind tour of trying to make change and sort of bring about a new awareness to the world of health care. And I want to pay homage to that and

say thanks for that. And hence the introduction. but how are things going for you? What's new lately? I heard you just got back from a trip recently. Yes, I went to Greece, which was incredible. And I actually went there for my work that I do in the Youngian coaching realm. So we had a Youngian coaching retreat where Youngian coaches from all over the world gather together about 45 minutes north of Athens. And we got together to do our work in person. You know, a lot of times now we're doing work virtually, so it was really nice to be able to do our work in person and just learn from each other. And just seeing the transformation that happened in three days was really, really incredible. What an amazing adventure it sounds like.

And then to sort of be immersed in, you know, immersed among your peers and figuring out some things. It just sounds like a fascinating time. I actually have a couple questions regarding, like, the young Ian approach. And I thought I'd just start off with one right here. It's pretty interesting. And I, let me look it up here. It's, um, Carl Young believe that one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.

How do you see this reflected in the psychedelic experience? Oh, yeah. So it's really interesting. You know, I do, I do integration work, um, through youngy and practices after people have a psychedelic experience because ultimately when we, when we have a psychedelic experience, We're going into our unconscious as well as the collective unconscious. And we're gathering a wealth of material and we're given so much knowledge. And our unconscious doesn't necessarily speak to us in words, you know, as true communication.

But what it does do is it gives us symbols, images. And that's how it communicates with us. So we may go into a psychedelic experience and have these symbols and these images that, you know, may not really make a lot of sense to us. So when we come out, there's this whole, you know, integration. process that we have to do. And using Jungian practices to help people understand and kind of talk with their unconscious to understand what those symbols were trying to tell them, what insights they were trying

to give them is it's a really interesting experience to go through. And, you know, when I do this Jungian coaching work, you know, ultimately what we are doing is we are using tools to guide people into their psyche, into their own unconscious. so that way they can tap into the wisdom that's already within, you know, the wisdom from their higher self, their most authentic self, because we have so many layers that prevent us from, you know, really accessing that information. And like I said, because it comes through in symbols, images, dreams as well, it can be very confusing to make sense of all of that.

So it's a really beautiful process of guiding someone into their unconscious, just like psychedelic medicine does to gather the information that is needed for you to gain, you know, the wisdom and the insights that are, that are ultimately for you, based on the intention that you sets. I'd so well said. It's such an interesting thought process to think that psychedelics may be, in fact, this bridge to the collective unconscious on some level. Is that part of what you think?

Is it possible that they could be a bridge to the collective unconscious? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it absolutely is. You know, we all have access to the collective unconscious. And I think that we, I think that many people knowingly feel that. You know, when something challenging is happening across the world or within the country, you know, everybody feels it. So you can hear that people may feel, you know, a little bit heavier during this time.

And that's because we are all very deeply connected. So we can feel, you know, others pain. And, you know, that's the whole kind of purpose of everyone really working on themselves because the more work that we can do on ourselves to better ourselves and, you know, lift our vibration, you know, get into a better state that ultimately does help the collective unconscious. So the more work that we do on ourselves to better ourselves and heal, that ends up helping others at the same time. It's, I love it.

I can't help but begin thinking about the way. way you're using your language. Like you're very, you choose your words very wisely. And I'm curious to like just move this conversation in like the aspect of language because it fascinates me. And I'm curious to get your thoughts. Do you think that psychedelics help us formulate a better language pattern? Like that seems synonymous with healing to me, finding a way to put our language in a way that is helpful. And that's whether that's touching the collective unconscious or understanding symbols in a different way. But what, what do you think about? language and psychedelics and healing.

Yeah, it's a really great point. So the English language is very limited. And I personally find that, you know, I even have a hard time explaining some of, like, the vastness that I feel or, you know, truly what I do communicate because, you know, I very much and kind of intuitively connected through kind of sensing and feeling. and, you know, understanding emotions, and that can be hard to communicate with the words that we have. You know, other languages like Sanskrit, for example, you know, they have so many more different, so many more words that explain, you know, love or just one specific thing.

So our language, yes, is very limited. And I do believe, though, that psychedelics do help. They help us to better explain maybe more of the, you know, complex ideas. And I know for me, I tend to find a lot of, maybe through these experiences, I'm able to kind of get downloads almost of like a way that I could portray this image that I see in my head or, you know, kind of this feeling or this kind of like broader awareness that I have, this broader perspective that I have on something that may be very complex. but I do find that, yes, through these experiences and through my integration afterwards,

that I'm oftentimes, I'm kind of given the words to be able to better explain something in, you know, in my terms, I try to explain things in a more simple way because I think that's better to really connect to people. You know, it reminds me of the medieval mystics, and we have our friend, you and I were just talking about Dr. David A. Solomon, and here he is in the podcast talking about, talking about much of this experience is ineffable. So here's his question for you, Jessica Tracey. He says, I'm curious if these experiences also can be conveyed through other modes, music.

I see the harp behind. Of course you see that harp, Dr. David Sullivan. Of course you do. Jessica, what do you think? He's curious if these experiences can also be conveyed through other modes like music. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So music can also take you on a journey. And I use a psychedelic journey, right?

but without the plant medicine, absolutely. So, you know, if you look at the shaman drum or the frame drum, for example, that's the drum that cultures all over the world, you know, as far as we, as far as we know and can see back, have been using that drum to take people on guided journeys. So using that drum and using certain rhythms, you know, rhythms of the heartbeat, it can guide people into, you know, an altered state of consciousness and help them to go in and do this deep healing work and to also kind of get wisdom, get insights from, you know, your higher self as well. So absolutely. So, you know, the strong and drum, also the jembe drum is also another one that,

you know, my partner and I play this. And when we play, you know, with, depending on some of the rhythms that you play, you can bring yourself into a trance state. And when you're in that trans state, that's ultimately what helps do some of that healing work, you know, work on the nervous system. And also it kind of helps you get into a very meditative state because it helps to kind of clear the mind of thoughts, the rumination that ultimately is kind of what blocks us from getting into those deeper, more altered states of consciousness. And with the harp as well, yeah, I mean, any type of music and sound can absolutely guide you into one of these altered states of consciousness and these deeper experiences within yourself.

Yeah, it's really well said. I almost feel like you need music on some level to underscore a meaningful conversation. Like it almost could be part of it. You know what I mean? Like if we're engaging all of the senses, it seems to me we're learning in a way that's more effective and efficient, like maybe even some nice smells that come in there. But, like, yeah, I think it can't be expressed through different modalities. He says, Dr. Solomon says, yes, shamanic drumming.

Also, Buddhist chanting, Gregorian chant, even the mystical music of someone like Hildegon von Bingham. I love this guy. Like, he's, you have to get you guys together on a show together. Like, he's one of the, probably, in my opinion, the greatest scholar on medieval mysticism. And he starts bringing up like Julian of Norwich and all these incredible people. You would love him. And Dr. Solomon, just so you know, she just got back from a young Ian retreat. She's going to be contacting you, my friend.

She's got some questions, so be ready for that. So what else is he saying here? This one is for you, too, Jessica, he says. And the harp, particularly, is so much about vibration, which you mentioned earlier. Why does your relationship with that, Jessica? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, I think people within my community that do believe that, frequency, vibration is medicine, and I believe that as well. My dog was just sick the past week.

And we didn't know the results weren't looking very good. And every day I played harp over him. And you could tell afterwards, like the pain that he was experiencing was subsiding. And he was calmer. And, you know, he just wanted to relax and lay there. And he wasn't like whimpering anymore. So absolutely, I mean, music, frequency, vibration, it is all healing. It's medicine. You know, I think that we have been taught to look externally for medicine, and sometimes it's necessary, right? You know, I think we're all grateful for the Western medicine that we do have that is necessary. But there are many times where we feel as though we need to look externally for that healing when much of that work can actually be done within ourselves. And, you know, there is a lot of power in, in meditation, in affirmations, in frequency,

and vibration, in music, and changing your thoughts. Changing your thought processes and, you know, what you're thinking is really, really important to help shift that. Your body, your cells, they're always listening, and our body is wooder. And when you're putting kind of sound and frequency into water, that also kind of has a ripple effect throughout the body. So, yeah, that's getting a little deep. There's a lot of people. So I would definitely explore that further for sure.

Yeah. It's exciting to me. I feel like we are sort of reimagining what healthcare can be. We are sort of really starting to look into these other modalities that have been used for centuries. And you may not see it a lot in the textbooks of modern day science, but you do see it in the scriptures and the text of the, you know, traditional, traditional wisdom, I guess, on some of them. We got Christian Gray, amazing philanthropist, incredible individual, super fun guy to be around. He says there is a great signal channel that focuses the role of music during psychedelic journeys. It is, there's a lot of, I've spoken to some sound healers that are really using sound as sort of another modality in conjunction with psychedelics, much like you were talking about earlier to really help people go that extra mile and integrate. Can you tell us a story about, do you have a particular experience, Jessica, where you've used sound?

to really help someone break through different arenas or different mindsets or different Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's kind of like a flow that can be really helpful in helping people to get to some like very deeply rooted trauma. So, you know, working with different instruments like shakers and like rattles, that can really kind of stare up some of the stuff that's very deeply rooted that maybe we are having a harder time accessing or may not be as readily available because of all of the kind of like protective layers that we built, you know, our conscious reality. So things like rattles, shakers, drums, that can really get into, you know, those areas where some of these things are tucked away and can kind of bring them

to light. And, you know, to your point earlier with the Carl Young quote, you know, that's the whole point is to bring the shadows, to bring the darkness into light into conscious reality, because once we're aware of it, that's when we can do the work and help to process those traumas, integrate those experiences. And ultimately, the whole goal was to really like harmonize, right? To balance the light and the dark, to bring the shadows to light. The shadows oftentimes have really incredible insights to share with us. They just do them in maybe a, you know, a not so pleasant way until they're heard. Oftentimes it just, it's, they have to be heard. And once the shadow is seen, then it almost softens. And it's like in a way, it wants to kind of collaborate

with you and actually give you guidance. It just sometimes, I believe it has to be so scary or so loud or so, you know, maybe not like you, not like you were in order to be seen. So sometimes I think that it acts that way because if it was just, you know, nice and kind of quiet and friendly, then we're not really yeah, we're fine. You know, I don't need to hear you right now. So it's like it wants to be seen because it wants to integrate. It wants to harmonize. It wants to give us information.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's, um, sometimes I think of, of guilt and shame as like the threshold guardians. What, what role do you think shame and guilt play in the idea of the shadow? Are they just like the painted rask and mattles, like painted masks and rattles? Like, hey, look at me. trying to get your attention? I think guilt and shame is what can prevent it from coming to light and what can prevent you from being okay with working on it.

Guilt and shame are really challenging feelings. And, you know, I think that's part of what's in our shadows. It's not only traumas, you know, and, you know, in these kind of suppressed aspects of ourselves, and these are aspects that we feel embarrassed by, shamed by, guilty of, You know, and they may not even be ours. They may be, you know, the shadows of the collective unconscious, right? You know, we a lot of people that I talk to, they think, you know, what they're experiencing

and what they're, what they're, you know, going to share is so abnormal or strange. But oftentimes, like, the collective unconscious is a very real thing because people are struggling on very similar things, but they're unique to them, to their experiences. So yeah, I think guilt and shame are really, you know, they're challenging feelings because they can prevent us from being able to bring that shadow to the conscious reality to be integrated and to be worked on. So they're challenging. But I would say to anyone that's experiencing that, you're definitely not alone. And in your own experience that you're struggling with too, you're very likely not. alone. And, you know, I think that's like the real importance of being vulnerable and sharing this,

you know, sharing your own story because I think it helps people to know that they are not alone and that other people are kind of experiencing the same things. And there is a lot of healing in community and in being vulnerable with each other. Yeah. It brings up this idea of generational trauma, which Dr. Sullivan says here. He says trauma is definitely part of the collective unconscious. I carry the trauma of the Jews from centuries past with me, although I never experienced it personally, whether it's from a hundred years ago or whether it's from your parents or from your, your, grandma Joyce, you know, whatever, whoever it's from, like, you can really have these shadows that get passed down to you. Is that, do you think that that's something that we carry is sort of

the sins of the father or the shadows of the past that if our parents don't work something out, then we're forced to work them out? Yes, absolutely. I do. I do. Yes. Because, you know, if there, you know, there is, you know, there's the nature and nurture, right? Some stuff we can genetically get. And sometimes we're going to pick up on things because of the environments that we're in. And, you know, all of the, you know, our ancestors before us did the absolute best that they can. So, you know, you have to only have compassion for them because they did the best that they possibly could. But the reality of it is, no matter how great of a parent you are, you're going to pass something on. you know, very likely. So we do absolutely carry, you know, these experiences. They get stored in our DNA and they get expressed, you know, through our bodies. So absolutely, we do carry them. And I did read something where it does show, though, that like, whatever work that you do on yourself and these breakthroughs that you're able to have, you one, heal them for yourself. You heal them for your ancestors in your lineage. But I also saw a really interesting, really interesting information that

said that it also then makes it easier for your family members that are still around to be able to do the work that, you know, work on themselves with that particular challenge. So it's almost like because you're doing that work and softening some of it, it ripples out to your immediate family, your loved ones that may be also struggling with that same thing and helps. to kind of almost like move, move it for them slightly. So it allows them to be able to go through their process as well and sometimes a bit more grantly. So I don't know if that's definitely true, but I found that really interesting.

Yeah, I get goosebumps when you said it. Like I think that there's a real message there. I think it's on some level it speaks to this idea of forgiveness. If you're willing to forgive maybe the people in your life that have harmed you, be physical or mental, maybe you allow them to begin forgiving themselves. You know, like, that's a ripple out words that benefits everybody. Right now you're talking about epigenetics and changing the environment. That's amazing to me.

Yeah. Forgiveness is a big one. You know, it's like, you know, forgiveness is really important because, you know, not only you're ultimately suffering, you know, by not forgiving. And by holding those feelings inside of you, you're the one that is ultimately experiencing. that pain. And yeah, so that's definitely one that can be a block and it's really important to do some work around. I know from my own experience, you know, when I worked on forgiveness, it just was like when I kind of was able to work through that, it just was such a weight off my shoulder and it just felt so much more expansive. And I think to do that, you know,

this concept of compassion is really important, you know, because people do the best that they can based on their own experiences, based on their own environments, based on their traumas, whatever they're going through. And, you know, the best way to try to work with forgiveness is to have compassion and understanding, you know, while also having, you know, the utmost compassion for yourself and your experience and what you went through as well. That's really important. Yeah.

I couldn't agree more. It kind of upsets me that maybe science hasn't figured out a way to measure this. You know what I mean? because it seems like we need science to be able to measure these things in order for us to get that into the health care system. Like all of these things we're talking about, I know mental wellness, mental wellness is not really new to health care systems, but it's kind of new. Like how do we get like these ideas in front of the people that not only make decisions but can implement them? Or how do we help them implement them? Yeah, you know, it's a great point.

I mean, if you think of something like loneliness is a good example. So that hadn't really been looked at prior, but now there's so many studies on loneliness and how much it can negatively impact you are in mental health. And it makes sense, right? When we, you know, long, long time ago, we all operated as tribes, right? Yeah. Tribes and community. So now I think this kind of concept of like, you know, kind of,

very individualistic society and like really just having to like focus on yourself and your family. I think it's kind of pulled us more and more away from community. And the aspect of community, I think, is is what people really do need and are really kind of lacking in this day and age. And, you know, we think, we feel like we're connected because we're constantly seeing what people are doing, and maybe connecting virtually, but it's just not the same. So, you know, I'm grateful to see studies like that done on, you know, on lowliness. But you're right.

We do need to look at things like forgiveness and, you know, other different, other different types of emotions or feelings that may be blockages for us to be able to be better versions of ourselves, or be more true versions of ourselves, I should say. Yeah. Yeah, it's like Dr. Solomon says, George, everything isn't quantifiable. Man, I get that. I know. Maybe it is. Maybe we just don't have the tools to do it. Like, if we were to look at heartbreak, like that instead of gross domestic product,

we look at gross domestic heartbreak, like, we would see like a huge swath of the country, whatever color you want to signify it as. Like I think we're failing to connect. Like you said, like we no longer have the felt presence of the other. We have this simulation. We have this idea. And we can't connect on someone. level, but it's heartbreaking to not be around people that really care about you, especially

when you start talking about people who spend the majority of their day in the workplace, and they become a number. They're looked at as your employee, 017-1667. You know, I don't care about your family. I don't care about your kids. I care about your productivity. And that's it. That's what you're here to do.

Do your job and shut up. I think there's a large part of the world that works that way. And I think that leads to a lot of the crisis that we're in, whether it's loneliness, whether it is, you know, failed marriages, failed parenting, you know, it just leads to so much distress. Is that too crazy to think about? Or am I just ranting like a crazy guy right now? No, I don't think so. I think it's very true.

I think that people are in work for long periods of their time and large portions of their lives. and it's necessary to feel valued. It's necessary to also feel like you are contributing in a very meaningful way. And I think for it to be in a meaningful way, you know, it does have to kind of come from your heart and kind of come through you. And I think in some of the ways that these really massive organizations operate to your point when they do look at people as just like a number or, you. you know, a piece of a financial model, then a lot of that gets lost. And, you know, work could potentially be a really helpful community for individuals. But I think that oftentimes it's actually a detrimental place that can cause a lot of the mental

health conditions that they're struggling with, like anxiety, like depression. So I think that it is really important. And I know people in, you know, HR and wellness, you know, that's, their goal is to try to create this aspect of community. But it's also hard, you know. Yeah. How are the best mechanisms to do that. And especially because everyone is so different. So, you know, I'm, I, uh, kudos to everyone that is trying to focus on building community within the workplace because it's necessary.

And, you know, I always think about you have to just bring some of this like non-traditional stuff in there, you know, like. Yeah. My partner and I do drum circle. So pulling things like drum circle. into the workplace where you can like connect and kind of have that experience with each other. And also to just do something fun together. You know, I think that's really important too. And you know, employers try to do that, you know, with health fairs and different days they have.

So yeah, keep doing more of that. But all of that stuff is so important. Again, people need to feel fulfilled. They need to feel like they are really, I think, helping to, give, but also being seen for what they're giving. And this kind of acknowledgement and this recognition for kind of who they are and what they were able to give and kind of like letting their gifts kind of be shown and be seen. Yeah.

I agree. I think that there's something to be said about an individual being separated from the fruits of their labor. You know, how many of us get up and go and do something, but then we never really get that product or that service that we're providing? We just become, we produce it. We don't ever get to be part of it. I think it, I think it harkens back to the ideas of shared goals and, like, more importantly, shared sacrifice. Like, this idea of shared sacrifice and being part of the whole and getting to see how things work out in a way.

Like, it's so valuable and it's so welcoming and it's so embracing to be like, look, we did this together. This is all of us. Yeah. I hear of you. Yeah, it's really important because then people understand how important. their specific piece is and they can see that it actually is very meaningful and you are a very much an important part of the puzzle you know and literally from like every single job you know like a janitor is just as important and just as critical as an executive right because they are keeping the

environments clean and you know so that some that people can feel good and and you know want to come into the workplace workplace like i i I very much have the belief that everybody within the workplace is extremely important. And, you know, if you can kind of think of every individual as the CEO of their own role. And if you can like have people come in with that mentality, like, look, this is, this is, you own this. You are the CEO of this specific thing. You know, you can really empower someone to like literally give their best because they have more, I think they feel more empowered to actually like kind of create in that role. And I think that conclusion piece is really important, too, to allow people to express their ideas, their intellect, their knowledge, their problem solving, their strategy, to be able to express that through their role.

Yeah, there's a great story. And I might be getting some specifics wrong, but it's something along the lines of back when they were working on the Apollo missions, like Werner Von Braun and somebody came into the NASA facilities like at 3 in the morning and the janitor was there. like, what are you doing here? He's like, I'm putting a man on the moon, sir. You know, it's like, right? I'll put a man on the moon. What are you doing? You know, it's like we're all in this together, man.

Like it's so hardwarming to think about that. Yeah, and working, you know, at crazy hours, you know, all their families at home. I mean, that's a tough job and somebody has to do it, you know? Yeah, of course. It's meaningful. Like, you're doing things that matter. And if people could realize that on some level, I, let me. Let me go to Clint Kyle here.

He says, what if we prioritized happiness or fulfillment as our metric of success? Gross national happiness is a concept that was developed by the fourth king of Bhutan. Its purpose is to measure how prosperous a country is by focusing on the happiness and well-being of a citizen. This is in contrast to other prosperity measures, namely those that measure economic success, such as GDP. What are your thoughts on that? No, I love it. Filman really stands out for me as to measure it. on how fulfilled you feel, right?

Because, you know, I think happiness is obviously a really beautiful feeling and emotion. But, you know, we can't be in a state of happiness at all times, right? Obviously, we can measure because we want to be more so, you know, than less than and we're depressed. But I think fulfillment is a really interesting metric because I think feeling fulfilled, you know, that's ultimately when you're feeling fulfilled, right, you're more, connected to who you are, your truest self. And that's really kind of, I think, the purpose that we have here in life is to become more and more of our truest selves. And in doing so, I think going

through that kind of process of becoming extremely authentic to you, you're discovering what your unique capabilities are and what your unique gifts are. And ultimately, once you connect, and find those gifts, then you get to share them with the world. And that's where this fulfillment comes from because you find something that's very kind of like innately special to you that you love doing, that makes you feel fulfilled and happy, doing it, joyous doing it. You know, I think we've lost a lot of joy into happiness. And then you get to share them to the world as your gifts.

And I think that's where that feeling of fulfillment really comes through. And, you know, I think that's kind of Crow Young's process of individuation is to really finding out exactly who you are and kind of what your purpose is for this lifetime. Yeah, that's really well said. I love the idea of fulfillment and sharing gifts. And it really makes you start thinking like how important a shadow is. Like you need that shadow, whether it's to scare you into making the sacrifice or whether it's for you to sit in the dark for a while or to be surrounded by some darkness in

order to really look for that light. You know what I mean? It's interesting. Jessica, it brings up an idea. Like when we start talking about fulfillment and being part of the whole, I bet you we could measure that. I bet you our good friend Luke Jensen, who is in the Sacred Valley in Peru. He's doing some interesting work on psychedelics and brain imaging. I bet you we could see brain scans, we could see different areas of the brain light up when we're fulfilled. Do you think that's plausible? Oh, yeah, I believe it. Absolutely. I would love to see that. Yeah, I would love to see more and more of these studies done on, you know, these aspects of who we are as human beings, you know,

because I struggle with the word productivity sometimes. I think there is a, you know, I think behind it, the sentiment is can be good. But I think also when people think, oh, you just want me to be more productive, it also comes to negative connotation. So what does productive actually mean? And maybe like organizations need to take that a step further of like, okay, well, what is productive? What are the values of being productive that we have as a company? How do we want to help you show up as a better person? And then I think it makes individuals feel more kind of represented, had seen cared for if we're looking at, okay, well, for us, productivity means that you feel fulfilled within your role. You find joy in doing your role. You feel like you're contributing

to the greater good of the company, and you also understand why your specific job function is so incredibly important to this corporation. So maybe something like that would, I think maybe soften some of the negative connotations around productivity, but to your question, yeah, I would absolutely love to see more studies done on the impact of psychedelic experiences or just, you know, it doesn't always have to be with plant medicine. Right. Just being able to get people into these altered states of consciousness and able to kind of do that healing and tap into their own intuition and their own wisdom.

And, you know, that's why I love the healing and coaching work because that's exactly what it does, kind of guide you into, in within. Yeah. It's, I can't help but think about productivity and the way the English language has the ability to be adaptive and change. And maybe what you just said, maybe it strikes me as our definition of productivity is beginning to change. And I think that productivity, especially like if you use like the metaphor of like the older companies, like maybe a company that is a multinational corporation and has a large board of directors that are. seasoned individuals, like they have an idea of productivity because their shareholders want something. But then you look at an agile startup and they have this work life balance that's

often seen as a pejority of some of these bigger companies. Like you have a work life balance, but you don't want to make money? What's wrong with you? But like if we look, if we just pan back, like we could see the word productivity slowly changing its form into something that is a pejorative into something that's more meaningful. Like is that possible? Do you think that that can be happening? I think it's necessary. You know, I do. You know, if you're so overworked and you're so stressed out because you don't have work-like balance

and you don't have, you know, an ounce of time to yourself, you're just in fight or flight or survival mode. You know, if you think about how many people operate and I lived a lot of my life like this because I was always, you know, I put so much value and emphasis into the amount of hours I worked and how much of my energy in life I poured into, you know, this career woman than I was at the time. And I still very much am, but it looks so much different for me now. And what I find is that but from shifting from this, you know, kind of like perfectionist driven type of work that was just work hard, play hard, never have a second to myself.

And I was just draining myself. And yes, was like getting a lot done? I was. But the ability that I have now to be way more strategic and to think through problems differently and to accomplish the same thing is much difference. And I'm able to do so much more with less time. And that is what allows me to have this work life balance that is so important. And, you know, I think that too, it's really important for our own mental health. to have this space and to have that balance because you just can't be operating in that kind of survival or fight or flight mode all the time. The reality of it is we can't learn. We cannot grow. We cannot evolve when we're in that mode. And I think many people for me, like, I didn't even

fully realize that I was constantly always in that mode of just like, what's next? I got to get something done. I have so much to do. My to do list is a page long and I got to get this done at home. and I would just try to do it all. And I always did it all and it just burnt me out. And I was getting panic attacks. And I had such bad anxiety and I was having insomnia. So then the next day, you know, I was going into that environment, trying to do all this work again. But I just wasn't healthy.

I think emotionally, mentally because I was so kind of like strung out from doing too much. So, you know, if I see what I'm able to create, develop, contribute now, it's on another level. I think because I have that space and I found that balance. And it just allows so much more impactful, meaningful product to come through me. Product is probably not the best word, but so much more to come through me. Was there like a significant event? And you talk about being this, being a career woman that, culture thrust upon you, their vision.

Maybe you didn't say it exactly like that, but it seems to me that you were cast into this position that you thought you had to be in, having anxiety, like getting all these things done. And like, was there an event? Was it a, was it a psychedelic journey? Was it maybe a family member dying? Was it part of you dying? Like, what was the catalyst for you to be like, wait a minute? I can't do this anymore.

I'm not happy. Like, was there a particular time that you can remember that really kind of pushed you over the edge to change or to grow, I should say? Yes, definitely. So I think there was a lead up to a very to a very pivotal point. So I think there was a lead up of just kind of looking around. So I was, you know, I was in the career. I was a producer, vice president, producer at a consulting firm. And, you know, I'd work my way up to the ladder from like the ground up. And I was so proud of myself. And I was, you know, making all this money. And at the same time, you know, I was making more money than I ever did. And I was one of the top producers. But I was, you know, but I was. I was empty. I was feeling empty and I wasn't feeling fulfilled. And it felt like it was never enough. You know, not it wasn't ever enough for the company, nor was it ever enough for me. And, and, and I just kind of looked around and I said, you know, what are, you know, what are

other people experiencing that are in this role? And I just, I didn't see like the level of kind of happiness or fulfillment that I had hoped to, to see. And, you know, some people very much were. But I think for me, it was just an environment that I didn't feel like I could thrive in any longer because I was having a lot of those, it was ultimately myself saying, Jessica, you're not in alignment. You are working yourself to the grounds. You are not on the path that you're, you know, meant to be on at the moment. So that anxiety, those panic attacks, the insomnia, they were alerts. They were alerts for me to say, you need to come back to yourself. you need to look within and you need to come back into alignment and get on, you know, the path

that you're supposed to be on. So that was kind of like a buildup towards a psychedelic experience that I had. And in that experience, I had, you know, what you would call an ego dissolution where I could feel everything that, you know, I kind of call like the human condition. Yeah. aspects of ourselves, the kind of blockages, the walls that we build, the kind of like things that we put around ourselves that we don't even intentionally realize that we're doing it. I saw, I felt them all disintegrate. And I truly was just one with the universe. And, you know, that's an experience that a lot of people will have in these, in these journeys. And I felt

very much just like one oneness all around me. And it was the most beautiful experience. I felt self-love. I felt this, the innate worthiness that we, you know, that we, you know, that we, all have, you know, the worthiness that we all are. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful. And this joy and this happiness and this peace that I hadn't really experienced in a long time. You know, when you get into these states of anxiety, you can almost forget what it feels like to be out of it. It's your new normal. So you don't even realize that you're just in kind of a constant state of anxiety, you know, or maybe in just an energetic level that you weren't once in. So I was able to re-experience kind of these feelings of joy, self-love, self-worth, innate self-worth,

not external worth by, you know, bringing clients or closing deals that I had in a long time. And as the medicine started to wear off, I could see each one of them start to come back and start to go in. And I was like, no, I don't want to go out to that. I don't want to feel that again. And ultimately, what I realized was that, wow, a lot of my anxiety is, kind of because I'm trying to conform to what other people expect me to be or what I expect myself to be because of what, you know, other societal norms that I should be or what I thought I should be at this age, you know, at this moment. And I was like, wait a second, I didn't agree

to any of this. I wonder I didn't agree to any of this. So I just said, I just had to like totally reevaluate everything. And, you know, it just showed me. And this is why, you know, We always talk about like these medicines are beautiful catalyst to transformation, but the real transformation is the work that you do afterwards because I was given a lot of information. It was saying, Jessica, you have a lot of work to do. So go do it. You know, I gave you all the material and go do the work. And that really, that really is what kind of set me off into going down this path and doing

more work in, you know, in the psychedelics community. And, you know, ultimately it was, as I can do. kept working with the medicine. I just kept finding my own healing, my own transformation, and I just wanted to give it back to everybody else. Because I knew my experiences weren't too dissimilar from what many other people were experiencing in their everyday life. You know, we all have micro-macrotra traumas that, you know, we haven't worked on. We all carry, I think, a lot of stress in our environments. We're living in kind of very challenging times right now. So my story was not dissimilar from many other people. So for me, it was like, okay,

these medicines are so incredibly powerful, how can I help other people, you know, have these experiences or access these medicines or, you know, not even through just the medicine, but doing things like the union coaching where you can take people into their own context to help guide them and get the answers from within as well. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's always super inspiring to get to hear the way in which people decided to start working on themselves in a way that benefits not only themselves, but all their relationships.

I think it's super inspiring. Jessica, thank you for that. Like, I, it's, it's, after that experience, you talk about doing the work. It takes a lot of courage to do that, especially if you're going to remove these labels of Jessica, the vice president. Like, that's got to be a tough label to pull off there, right? Like, did it take some time to pull those labels off and discover what was really out there? Yeah, the labels, you know, I think the connection to, you know, how much money.

we need to make. That was a big one. That was very much money driven. I was in a sales role. So it's always like, that was kind of like showing me how well I was doing. That was giving me, you know, a value of work for what I was contributing. So it absolutely, you know, and again, you just, it's very easy to get caught up and wanting to make more and more and more to feel like you're getting better and better in your job or your role. And, and it can distract you from what's really important. Yes, we need money and, you know, that is obviously important. But there's so many other things that are so important. So a lot of what I did in that journey and in that process, the integration process, was just unlearning, unlearning so much that I had been taught, that I had been programmed,

that I had picked up over time, all of these belief patterns, these beliefs that I had about myself. So it was really this process of unlearning and then deciding for myself, what I believed and this kind of like re-learning process and looking into different cultures, different religious practices, you know, spirituality and just really kind of looking at all the information and then deciding from there what I believed and kind of who I was. So it did take a lot to undo that. And it's it's not an easy process because your ego is going to fight you. it is going to like really fight you because it doesn't want those parts every time you know you you kind of uh shed parts of who you are there's a fight with your ego because it's not safe for that

for you know the ego to go into the unknown so these parts of you that are kind of dying that you don't want to be anymore you're you're going to let go it's it's not always an easy process to to shed them And it can be very confusing because the ego can get very loud. But it's a necessary process. And I think it gets easier over time. But it does take discipline. And I think it takes, like, you know, a total shift in perspective in what's important. And also how we take care of ourselves.

You know, that was another thing. You know, I was definitely, like, drinking a lot, you know, between, like, networking and going out with friends. And I wasn't eating well. So, like, literally just the, the most. simple basics of like, what do I put in my body? You know, if you can start to look at your body as so your body is, you know, a vessel here on earth. It's kind of like your temple. So you should be treating it like that. They're all taking care of it. You should be, you know, I shifted to eating organic foods, to doing yoga to stretch out the body to kind of clear the energetic system,

meditation, to practice quiet in the mind, journaling for me to express, getting into music. So that way I was kind of working, you know, fostering that neuroplasticity in an ongoing leases. So yeah, there was so much, so much that I needed to do and, and also just be comfortable with all of this unknown because it was a big, big shifts in my life. And I didn't know exactly where I was going. I just kind of had to take one step at the time going into this kind of state of the unknown. Yeah, there's that great quote that says the next step reveals the fall the next step reveals the next step you know and it's it's really difficult to have to be faced with the unknown and especially to you know you'd mention the the idea of letting go or

surrendering to things which brings up another quote is this that i'm reminded of that says psychedelics are a substance you take that has radical psychotic effects on everyone around you you know like it makes everyone else like you can ruin relationships like it maybe you don't ruin them but like sometimes you take psychedelics and you cut off that relationship. You're like, wait a minute. This is a very unhealthy thing I'm doing here. And, you know, I know what it's like to leave a workplace where you're making good money because you can't do it anymore.

I mean, physically you could probably do it, but mentally and spiritually, like you can't do it. It's killing you inside. Like, that is a giant step. And that can lead people around you, even relationships with people you love. Like, what are you doing? You're going to leave this thing? Just what's wrong with you?

You know how much money you're making? this is not you, who are you? Did you ever have encountered that particular conundrum? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think people probably thought I was crazy. But like you can ask prior to psychedelic experiences, but this was when I was starting to really be aware of like,

you know, the anxiety was kind of showing me and telling me I needed to make some shifts in my life and I needed to listen to myself. And yeah, I mean, I remember the CEO of the company sat down with me. He's like, I just don't understand. understand. Like you, you have been so driven to get to this point that you're at right now. You know, you're, you're making a ton of money. You're, you know, you have a senior role. And you're finally at the point. I basically had to work like five years of just like hustle and

grind, not really anything. And then, you know, the next kind of three, four years was like, really where all the money started to come. And it's just like, it doesn't make any sense to me. I just like, I know, I get it. But I just, I have to listen to my heart. And I just, I feel, I feel that there's more for me. And I feel that I need to experience more in life. And I also just, you know, I'm not feeling like this is going to be it for me or going to fulfill me. So I've, I've definitely had those talks, you know, many time also from when I was transitioning into this space too, into the psychedelics world. I don't think, again, maybe just out of kind of like people helping me to try to make sure I'm making the right decision, like, are you sure this is

where you want to go? And it's hard for, other people to understand, right? But for me, and I think a lot of people that are in this space, it's mission-driven, right? It becomes your purpose. You feel so connected to it because you know the transformation that you've had, and you almost feel as though it's your responsibility, but in like a way that you want to,

you want to educate people on this. You want to give back. You want to share this with other. because you know that it can be so helpful for them. And that was my kind of transition into this phase. It was just, I just, I knew. And energetically, I started to do more and more and more. It was almost like, you know, unconsciously,

all of my energies start to shift more and more and more to this work and less of the, you know, other kind of world I was in. So I just, and I allowed it. You know, I could very much feel like, nope, we'd have to get back to this. We have to get back to this. And I just, I allowed it. And I started to take more time to focus on the space, to network in the space. And I think when we when we do allow, allow ourselves to kind of follow

that little pull, that either gentle pull or that very kind of strong pull that can come from the heart, that's ultimately where you're going to kind of be on the path, right? It's all within here. And that's kind of where you, it's kind of like that's your compass. It might be a kind of gentle pull where your energy feels good to go. Or it might be something that when you experience it, talk about it, you know, do that work. it really just light you up or it gets like a strong pull. And that's ultimately what you have to listen to. And, you know, I was fortunate enough that after enough time, I did finally listen to it.

And I'm grateful that I did. I'm grateful you did too. And I think a lot of people listening to this. And I bet you there's still stories at your work. I'm like, oh, I can't believe she left. But that begs the question, why did she leave? People start investigating, well, what's she doing now? I wonder why she walked away from like, and that is contagious.

Like, that is sort of that stone in the pond. that radiates ripples and affects the, affects the shoreline. Like I, it's the stories that happen. And I'm super grateful that not only you shared that the story with us, but that you have done it. And I think it, what does it mean for you now? Like you are in this new space and we've talked a little bit about you moving into these new roles, but let's shift gears and talk about what it is you're actually doing

right now. Yeah. So in the psychedelics world, I'm very much focused on education and access. So I'm working with an organization called Anthea and our mission is to help people get insurance coverage for these medicines. So we work with employers, unions, EAPs to be able to cover these therapies, only the therapies that are FDA approved medicine or legal. So what we're focused on now is helping employers to, one, understand. understand the benefits of ketamine-assisted therapy, as well as psilocybin therapy and some other

kind of innovative mental health approaches. And then not only that, but, you know, what is Enthia's role in helping employers to provide access and coverage for these therapies? Because, you know, the reality of it is, you know, ketamine therapy is very much here. But there's not really, you know, outside of Enthia, there's not really like very many kind of guardrails around it. So Enthia is a really important model to help employers educate their employees on, you know, what are, how does it work? What are the benefits? And also, how, you know, what is the appropriate treatment protocol? And, you know, we obviously leverage evidence-based treatment protocols based on the clinical research.

And our model is focused on access to short-term therapy. So going through six medicine sessions, eight therapy sessions. and I think providing that education on, like, well, you know, these outcomes that the clinical research is showing are really built around a short-term treatment model. I think that's when after they go through these sessions, the ongoing integration and that ongoing work that you do on yourself becomes so incredibly important. And then also making sure, obviously, that, you know, all the providers are credentialed, trade, license. So it's a really important model so that employers can provide the safest access. you know, with the highest quality doctors, making sure that the employees are utilizing it in the appropriate way that's based on the clinical research and more kind of the short-term model.

So that's some of the work that we're doing. And, you know, I'm really grateful for that opportunity because it allows me to educate individuals that otherwise may not be aware of these treatments of these therapies, you know, not only for their employees, but for themselves as well. And it's also really exciting that we'll be able to, this is actually new, we'll be able to help employers cover psilocybin treatments as well in Oregon and, you know, soon Colorado. So that's a really beautiful opportunity to be able to help people access that and to be able to help people afford it because it can be expensive. So, yeah, some of the work that I'm doing. And then, you know, I'm also looking at integrating psychedelic medicine into addiction centers. So I think,

that that's really important too. You know, I think many people don't know, but with the 12 Steps program, the individual that invented the 12 steps program, he used LSD to overcome his addiction. And then through that experience, he came up with the 12 steps. So I think that, you know, in these addiction centers, it's very much like all drugs are bad. And I guess I just don't look at psychedelics as drugs. I look at them as really powerful medicine and medicine that can really be influential in, you know, some, some are influential in, in actually, you know, breaking the addictions. But I think more importantly, many people that struggle with addiction, they're struggling because there's some unresolved trauma or some challenging experience

that they've had that they haven't been able to work through because many of us don't have the tools to work through them. So if we're able, we know these medicines are really powerful in helping people to get to the root cause of what's causing these, what's, you know, underlying these conditions, then we can help people to heal that part of them and help people to, you know, no longer feel the need to have to rely on something to, you know, ultimately numb themselves or help them not think of that past experience or not feel, you know, kind of the outcomes of that. you know, if you think about like PTSD or anxiety, like they're very visceral feelings, extremely visceral feelings that can come on out of nowhere.

And that's really challenging and scary. You know, I dealt with that a lot of this kind of like fear, worry, and doom that would come out of nowhere for no apparent reason. It's a very scary thing. So being able to, I think, understand where it's coming from and to have the experience and the integration to be able to work through that and kind of resolve some of those traumas, I think is really the future of helping people through addiction. I love it. I think it's applicable in so many areas. You know, as a, I used to, I used to be a teamster and a shout out to local 996 and 542 and the teamsers everywhere. Like, as a UPS driver, and I know a lot of people that find themselves at a job like UPS or FedEx or even Amazon, like the dirty secret is, like there is a lot of violence that happens in these places. Like a lot of it.

Like, you don't have to comb the headlines too much to see work. workplace shootings. Like I remember when I was at UPS, like a couple times a month, maybe not a couple times a year you would read like this little blurb about someone that shot up a place and you're like, oh my God, I've seen threats at the center that I worked at. And I can't help but think if the Teamsters or the UPS pension plan or UPS as a corporation offered this particular therapy, I guarantee you there would be less violence. I guarantee you there would be less accidents. And like, it's mind-blowing to me to think that that's not on the table. Like, if you could stop workplace violence, like, what does that do for productivity?

What does it do for productivity when the guy or girl comes in and they no longer want to kill their boss, like or hate their boss on a level that's visceral? Like, that person is going to be a little bit better of an employee. Like, these particular therapies, while they could be scary for people or they may not yet fully thoroughly understand how to fund it, they could be life-saving for lots of people in the workplace. And I think it could really change the way people work in that environment. And I just wanted to get at that. I know there's going to be tons of UPS.

Let's listen in to this one. So my shout out to all the UPS drivers out there. You guys are amazing. You men and women are amazing if you work at UPS. I love you. But we should be thinking about implementing this, especially with the teamsters throughout. I really hope that it's something that can be done and it should be done.

I know that you have worked with Dr. Bronner. You and your team have gotten this particular, ketamine therapy into different places. How does that look on the horizon for more places adapting this? Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And, you know, I have actually done a lot of work with unions. And I worked with the team as well, the teamsters of the Philadelphia and vicinity. And I personally love working with unions. And there's some of my favorite groups to work with. And I agree with you 100%. I've actually been doing a lot of work to educate unions. And we were just at IFEBP to present to that community on the power of psychedelic medicine and that it's here

and how can you safely provide access to your members and ensure that it's the right treatment, the appropriate treatment, you know, the right treatment protocols. But yeah, I 100% agree. I mean, the union members, they have really challenging jobs, right? They're very challenging hours. They're very strenuous, you know, hard labor. It's hard on the body. They're very exhausted at the end of the day.

And it's also a very important work. And, you know, and I think when we think about that type of, you know, it's not all men, there's women there too, but it's a lot of men with, and the mentality tends to be, you know, don't deal with it, you know, just brush it under the rug, you know, like don't talk about it. There's a lot of stigma around talking about emotions. And they also don't want to, you know, I think many people don't want to be on a medication every single day. So oftentimes, then what is your medication going to be?

it's going to be alcohol or some other substance or some other thing that you're going to engage in that's going to get you to not think about, you know, what you're dealing with or not feel what you're feeling. So oftentimes what we see is, you know, within these populations, there's a high prevalence of addiction. There's a high prevalence of suicide. Suicide for labor and construction, it's four times the national average. It's five times greater than any other workplace fatality combined. And these, I very much believe that there's a lot of suffering, a lot of quiet suffering that's going on within union populations. And, you know, talk therapy is good, but oftentimes when you have like kind of these really strong defense mechanisms, you can't get under the hood to what needs to be addressed and talking about it can be really challenging.

And that's the beauty of these medicines because the medicines ultimately will help to, you know, one soft. in the default mode network. And it also is going to soften the ego, right? So it's going to kind of help you to bypass some of those defense mechanisms so that you can get into the trauma or whatever you need to work through and bring it to light and do so in a gentle way. And then you have, you know, kind of on hand what you need to work through in, within therapy, in integration. And you can then do so in a very meaningful way. So I absolutely believe that the, these medicines can be so healing for that community. And, you know, for unions, for firefighters, for police officers, there's a Sarko-Gregarian. He's in the township of Winthrop in Massachusetts.

And he's a really big advocate. He was on how to change your mind talking about these therapies. I think it was MDMA specifically for police officers. And, you know, a lot of these individuals, they struggle with PTSD because they see really traumatic situations. And then they're bringing that into work. And, you know, if you're bringing that into a work when you're also working with a firearm and really stressful situations, like it's not a good recipe, you know? So we have to have better, stronger, more effective tools like these medicines and can help people work through these really deeply rooted and very complex things.

I think a lot of times it's like it's so challenging. You can't even wrap your head around. trap how to actually work through it. So that's why these medicines can be so, so beautiful in helping people to heal those wounds and to be able to break through. So I would love to see more unions

providing access to psychedelic-assisted therapy. Yeah, me too. I've been there, like I remember being out in the parking lot and talking to a fellow driver and we were talking about his daughter had tried to commit suicide. I remember we sat up there and cried for a little bit and then going in the next day and talking to the center manager and being like,

Hey, so-and-so daughter tried to commit, who's any of those? Who's that? I don't know who that is. I mean, I was so offended. I was like, you knucklehead, you would, that guy's been here for 20 years. You don't even know his name? Yeah. I since softened my approach and I began to see that guy as like, look at the stress.

This guy's under. This guy probably isn't living a very good life either. But it's that tension between the two classes that are perceived two classes inside that structure that is just causing so much of the detrimental problems, not only in productivity, but in reduction of service and, you know, the, the relationships between everybody. And I really think that these medicines have a great place in the health care system if we can be, and have an open and honest discussion about how they can help and why they can help. And a great point, like you said about the police officer, who was not only bringing that into work,

but what about bringing that home? Like, his wife has to feel that. His kids have to feel that on a level that's damaging them. Then we get back into the idea of generational trauma like that. Now they have to carry the shadow with them on so many levels. It's such a deep, deep problem. But I think that the shining light is that here's these medicines that have been around for so long. And they have a proven track record of safety.

They have a proven track record of healing and opening up and new growth. It's almost like it's meant to be. Yeah, I agree. I mean, especially, you know, some of the natural medicines that we have, like, psilocybin, it's a, it's a, you know, a natural musher that we have access to. So, you know, I think it's very evident that we should be using it. It blows my mind to think up. Jessica, how are you on time? Are you okay on time or do you have another thing coming up?

Are you doing okay on time? Do you have something else? Okay. Okay, fantastic. I know I, conversations tend to go really fast and so, but I have another question coming in right here. And it says, what are the biggest psychological barriers for health systems and insurers to embrace psychedelic therapies? The biggest psychological barriers, I think, comes from probably the world on drugs and a lot of the message that was delivered. And the fact that it's, you know, they're still federally legal.

So, you know, that's the biggest barrier. And, you know, that's not only a, yeah, it's a psychological barrier too, because I think there's just like a lot of stigma there. And, you know, many of these, I think many people weren't educated on these types of medicines, you know, throughout their schooling, you know, to become a doctor, and become a physician often wasn't, you know, really taught back then. So there's definitely a lot of, I think, just lack of education or more education that's needed. And also just kind of like looking at different ways that we can provide access legally.

So like what can we do now with what's available, maybe in more of a clinical research setting to provide that access? But, you know, I think even for health systems too, you know, if it gets legalized in a specific state, but it's still federally legal, then would that impact like funding? or something like that. So those are some of the things that I think that they have to think through. But the reality of it is, I mean, if you look at, you know, a health system and they're treating patients, you know, they're struggling with the same thing that employers are struggling with, that people are with mental health, you know, many people are, the prevalence is increasing, right? And more and more people need help. So the system, you know, the resources that we have, are impacted because so many people need to use those resources.

And it's still really challenging to get an appointment with a therapist or a psychiatrist, and it takes a lot of time. So the reality of it is, you know, we need, these health systems need to be able to provide solutions that are helping to resolve these conditions. You know, I don't want to use the word curative because we're always going to be having to work through things. But we need medicines that can really help people have these breakthroughs. not need to be in the system anymore. Like there's too many people and not enough resources in,

you know, in the kind of world of mental health. So, you know, if you think about anything like, you know, could you cannibalize on certain, on certain business that a health system has, you know, when it comes to mental health, I think it's necessary because they're therapist, their psychiatrist, they're oftentimes overworked, they're getting burn out. We need to get more people kind of out of the system. And, you know, my mind, if you think about, like, well, you know, innovation and attracting new patients and attracting new people to your health system, I mean, how powerful would it be if you can say, well, we're actually helping people to break through their anxiety, break through their depression, break through their PTSD.

They're not relapsing, you know, within the first year like many people do. So if you can come and say that you're having this level of outcomes where people are having these breakthroughs, and they're no longer needing therapy or medication or whatever it may be anymore, then in my mind, people would travel to go see them. You know, you would flock to somewhere where you know that you can go and get healed. And then with insurance companies, you know, obviously there's still the issue with legality. But, you know, I think for them there's just so much education that's needed to help them understand how safe these medicines actually are.

and how beneficial they actually can be. And also to get maybe a bit more education on what some of the current medicines and the current pharmaceuticals are actually doing to individuals. You know, I was just on a webinar yesterday with Outro Health, and they're doing some really amazing work to help people taper off of their medications.

And they were talking about the withdrawal experiences that people have after getting off of their medications and how detrimental they can be and how long they can actually last. And many times these withdrawal symptoms feel like the condition. So you think you're just getting the condition back, but it's actually the medicine that's causing it. So I say this because, you know, when I talk to insurance companies or I talk to employers, there's like so much scrutiny over, which, you know, I understand it's new.

There's so much scrutiny over these medicines. And they are, you know, very safe. and if they did put the same level of scrutiny into some of the other things that they're covering, you know, I wonder if they would want to even cover it, you know, if they did that level of analysis into it. Yeah, it's, it's amazing to try and differentiate science from company science. You know what I mean by that? Like, this is company science. Like, look how good this looks on paper over here.

This is amazing. You know, it's interesting to think about. Here's a great question. It says, if health care systems had a collective shadow, what would it look like and how can it be transformed? Collective shadow. Well, man, I think there's a lot of, this is doing tough.

Scott can say this. Look, the reality of it is, you know, insurance companies, they're corporations, and corporations are driven by money, right? So I would say, shadow, the shadow side would be this kind of, maybe greed or this kind of need for more and more money. So that could be the shadow. Because I think that if it wasn't about the money, I think that we'd be running insurance companies a lot differently. And I think that it would be way more

focused on preventive health care versus, you know, a model that's really built around sick care. So yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of, there's definitely shadow aspects to insurance companies. That's a really great question. But, you know, I think we have to help them come to the light, right? And give them tools and solutions that are really focused on helping people to heal, helping people to have these breakthroughs and not ultimately like not have to utilize insurance, right? I think that's really the goal for everybody is to not utilize the insurance that you have. So it's not need to go to the doctors, to not need to go into the hospital. And the best way to do that is to keep the mind, body, the soul healthy, right? All of it has to be healthy.

And I think we've spent so much time just focusing on physical health. And that was kind of this era that we were in. It's everything physical physical. Then, you know, focus on like, okay, well, what about the mind? You know, we have to actually heal the mind. And the mind, if we can heal the mind, that's ultimately going to ripple out into healing the body as well. You know, we're going to have more positive thoughts, more positive thinking. And that really does have an impact. You know, your thoughts really do shape your reality, you know, your external reality as well as your experiences that you have. So we just don't focus on that enough. And, you know, you see more and more around companies covering like things like meditation and, you know, covering yoga. And that's

so important. And I would love to just keep seeing more and more of that. You know, and everything I'm saying, it's not to kind of like take away from all of the. amazing things that, you know, some of these companies and insurance companies are covering, because there is some of that as well. So I just want to make sure we address that. Yeah, no, I, on some level, I think it's necessary. We spoke earlier about the shadow and how it can seem like this giant, scary monster, but in the end, it's just trying to get your attention.

And if we hold that for a moment, and then we combine that with the story that you told us about your transformation, you know, might we be living through the transformation of a, not only an aging boomer class, but an aging insurance class. You know what I mean by that? Like if you start looking at the models, like if you pull back the curtain, you can see new models emerging, like, okay,

we're going to charge you only if we fix you. Like, there's these new models that are emerging. Like, that's a pretty cool idea. I don't thoroughly know how it works out, but let's investigate that more. And we start talking about healing the mind.

And maybe if we stop focusing on all of the horrible sickness and start focusing on wellness, the sickness begins to fall away on some level, Not ignoring it, but like, okay, let's study these people that are crushing it. Like, let's study these people that have a really amazing wellness and figure that out, instead of focusing on people that have this really horrible sickness. And maybe we start to change our awareness and where our awareness goes, our energy flows or something along those lines.

You think we're moving into a new dynamic or a new era of insurance where we change the way we actually care about ourselves and it works? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I did this training program before, and they talked about how COVID, you know, that period of folks was kind of like this collective ego death that we all kind of went through. And there was this kind of like breaking down that everyone had to experience and that everyone did experience as a collective. And while it was so challenging, there were a lot of positive things. that came out of it. I think, you know, people are demanding this work-life balance and saying, like, why do I need to drive, commute for two hours both ways when I can be more productive and do something here? And just, I think, really focusing more on, like, what brings them joy

and happiness and fulfillment and all of that stuff. So, you know, I think that that was a really interesting concept around kind of this collective ego disillusioner or had to happen for us to kind of wake up to see like what's actually going on here and how we've been operating. And, you know, I think that, yeah, there are new models that are coming out and kind of that value based and, you know, focused on, you know, higher pay if you improve outcomes, I think is is absolutely the right approach. And I think in general, to your point around just like so much more emphasis, energy, attention, focused on keeping individuals well and keeping yourself well. And again, I think that that was that's something that has been going on,

but it's been primarily focused on the physical body. So keep your body well, keep your body well, keep your body well. And I think many people are like, okay, well, I'm running, I'm eating better, and I'm still not feeling great. Well, we need to also do prevention in the mind and, you know, healing work in the mind and this kind of wellness work in the mind. And I think that that's so incredibly important is to focus on how can we improve our thoughts.

How can we kind of quiet some of those thoughts? How can we have more positive self-talk? I know many people, you know, this is something I always had to work on, this like negative talk that just would kind of like go on and kind of chatter inside. And you really have to actively work to shift that. You know, anytime you start to get those worries or like those kind of negative thoughts coming in, you have to, a really great tactic is to kind of immediately replace it with a positive thought, a positive affirmation, to practice shifting into,

these more positive ways of thinking. So yeah, I think that we absolutely do need more emphasis on, you know, the wellness and keeping yourself, preventing yourself from getting sick. But there's just so much more, I think, education that people need on how to do that and tools to do that and more emphasis on, you know, getting out of the mind and kind of more connected to your heart too. I think that's another important aspect of this. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes I'm curious how the world of psychedelic medicine may evolve. On some level, I think maybe there's different levels of help and there's people need different levels of care regardless of what it.

I mean, you need different levels depending on what your symptoms are and what you might have. However, I think that there's a lot of issues people have where they can maybe take, do a psilocybin journey once with somebody and then go off. on their own and start digging deeper into themselves. Like, that seems like a great move for insurance companies. Like, you just have to pay for this thing one time and you kind of teach people how to use it. And then now they're, they're off to the races and maybe influencing other people in some ways. Is that something that could be beneficial? Yeah.

And then I think where you put more of the resources after that is like these tools around integration and community. Because, you know, look, you're going to get a lot from these psychedelic experiences, right? And, you know, not everyone is equipped to be able to integrate those experiences. So, you know, yes, you can have massive transformation. And we've seen people, you know, stop drinking after, you know, one psilocybin experience, like totally quit cold turkey. Or, you know, be kind of in bed and not be able to kind of, you know, really function and then be able to, like, just find joy and happiness again.

So we really are beautiful medicines. But the reality of it is, though, there is a lot that is going to come through those experiences. And it's really important to give people the tools thereafter because I do believe, the integration is the most transformative part of the process. So yeah, so if an insurance company or an employer can cover for one psilocybin experience, and then we put a lot of emphasis into also providing access and coverage for the integration and the therapy. And then also education into things like, well, how do you change your diet?

You know, what are more education around nutrition, more education around how things like yoga can help and not just physically, right? I think many times people think about yoga and think just physical. That's what I thought at first, but it's beyond that. It's actually like really clearing kind of our energetic system. So, and, you know, the power of meditation for me. I thought meditation was a bunch of yes and yoga. And I was like, I'm never doing that, you know, like, I'll stretch. I don't need to stretch. I'm going to go lift. And then I would say, you know, I'm not going to sit for three minutes. I have stuff to do. And then even if I tried, my, my leg would be shaking. I'd be tapping. I just, I just, I physically couldn't do it because the amount of anxiety I was carrying.

But then when I understood, like, well, why do you need to do it? And what is it going to bring to me later? Then it's something that I really wanted to work towards. And then I had to find the tools that were right for me. So for me, like when I started this, it was three yoga poses and three minutes a day. That was it. Every morning that was and it had to happen immediately as soon as I got out of bed. Because if I didn't do that, it wasn't going to happen.

If it was any longer than six minutes, I was not going to do it. I was going to go to the gym or something. So once I build up a habit, then it's expanded into what is my kind of daily devotion practice that I do that I do to take care of myself, to stay grounded, to prevent anxiety from coming through, to improve my sleep. And now I have, you know, an hour to an hour and a half long practice in the morning. And if I don't do it, you know, I can totally see the difference. I mean, I'm distracted throughout the day.

I am not as grounded. you know, I feel like I can't be as present. So these practices are so incredibly important for just like daily performance optimization, mental health. So I think that if we can teach people this. Oh, and then the other thing is also too, like having expressive outlets is another really important aspect that we should be investing in, helping people to have these expressive outlets, whether it be music, dance, whatever it is for them.

Because we do need to express and allow, you know, you know, our selves come through us through that expression. So being able to invest in things like that, I think, would help to go back to the concept of fulfillment. So, you know, you're improving yourself mentally. You're healing your mind. You're staying. You're grounded.

You're clearing your thoughts. You're having more positive thoughts that helps to shape your reality. And then you're able to, like, express and kind of move, move things through your body. That's really where a lot of this emphasis should be put put into for employers. And, you know, I would love to help employers design. programs like that that are really cultivated around these like very sound practices that I think are age old that we just kind of forgot and maybe just didn't really fully understand kind of the why behind it. But once you understand the why and then you feel it after once you always start

doing it, it's something that you'll want to do all the time. It seems like it has such a community building effect too. You know, it's one thing. And it sort of reminds me of someone that does a psilocybin experience by themselves and then in a group there's like a two different two different feelings it sounds to me so with his practices like if you did it by yourself at home or if you came into the office and you had like this group activity like are there are there benefits to doing it doing it alone and in a group or what do you think yeah absolutely yeah i mean so you know doing it alone it gives you obviously the space to like really kind of like have your own personal experience and there's there's beauty in that and obviously healing in that uh but

doing this work in community, I mean, there's been a ton of studies around how impactful community is and how impactful it is to the actual healing experience and that it can improve the outcome and that also just doing doing some of even not any like psychedelic medicine, but doing activities in community is extremely healing. You know, doing let's say drum circles or, you know, dancing or maybe doing art together, it's very healing, you know, and some of the work that I do is kind of like this expressive arts, you know, so bringing that into, you know, an organization or, you know, with a community of people and kind of doing this work around shadow or archetypes and using art to kind of express

and get some of that stuff out. And then you can share in community. And when you're sharing a community, you're, again, creating the community, you're, again, creating this kind of vulnerable, you're creating this kind of vulnerable, uh, aspect where we can all kind of come together and, and experience, um, healing. Sorry, I had a call come through. So I lost the camera for a second. Yeah, no worries.

No worries at all. I just got a couple more questions. And then, um, I just want to end up with, I got three more awesome ones. And like, let me just start off with this one here. How do you envision the relationship between science and spirituality evolving as psychedelics become more accepted? That's a great question. Yeah, so spirituality is an interesting one.

I do see the science involving around spirituality because spirituality, I think, is a component of the psychedelic experience. And, you know, spirituality doesn't necessarily mean religion. It means, you know, this kind of spiritual experience that you have. And oftentimes when you go through a psychedelic experience, you are having a spiritual experience as well. And oftentimes, you know, from my own experience as well as many others that talk about their experiences, you are very much kind of tapping into, one, you know, a spiritual realm. but two, seeing the kind of spiritual aspects of ourselves, you know, that we are very much, you know, kind of divine spiritual beings. And I think that we've kind of disconnected from a lot of our spiritual nature and just our understanding of spirituality.

You know, when I think of spirituality, I think of like, you know, nature and how we need to be connected to nature and how disconnected to nature that we are. And also when I think of spirituality, I think of kind of like the oneness of all of us and, you know, how truly connected and similar we all are. And, you know, when I think many people feel this, when other people are in pain, you feel their pain, whether you know it or not. So this kind of like connectedness to nature to each other, I think that that's kind of what becomes more apparent when you start working with these medicines. And, you know, how powerful we actually are is kind of another aspect of spirituality that I think that you experience with these medicines. And, and, you know, going back to like science,

if you can understand, you know, one, how much healing we can do through ourselves, you know, through changing our thoughts, through, you know, kind of really, through more positive beliefs about yourself or about your experience and the power, that the mind actually has to help facilitate some of that, or, you know, the healing that can be done through nature. I think that I'd like to see more and more science study that. And there

are some studies, you know, going around, studies done on that as well. But this kind of concept of, of, yeah, expanding our perspective, expanding our awareness, expanding our consciousness to be more kind of spiritual. And I want to say spiritual, again, it's not religious, but more spiritual beings, which ultimately means that we are more connected to nature, more connected to or see how connected we are to each other, more connected to our innate power within and, you know, our, true selves, our most authentic selves and continue to become more of that. So yeah, I'd like to see more of that done. And then also just looking at, you know, how healing some of these like currently non-traditional practices can be. I think it's another aspect. Yeah, I think it's phenomenal.

I echo that sentiment. I think the further we go down the road, the more you see those two things is the same thing. Or they, you know, there's so much involved in science and spirituality. Like, I really feel like they belong together in a way that is meaningful. And it helps us understand and maybe measure more of what's out there. What role do you see psychedelics playing in addressing not just individual suffering, but systemic issues like inequality or environmental crises? Great question. You know, I think that kind of going to go off what I was just saying, you know,

it very much is connected to that. I think we become so disconnected from nature. and how important it really is and how important it is to be connected to nature. That can obviously help if we can shift our perspective to kind of like being one with the earth, one with nature and be giving back to nature, not just like taking from. We're the only species that really just takes, takes, takes, takes and doesn't give back. So you always, I think, should be trying to give back to nature by planting stuff, and making it better than when you left it.

And then also, you know, the systemic issues, just, you know, I think just to not see ourselves as so different, you know, everything right now I feel is just so much polarity and so much divisiveness that has been created through the news, through social media, through, you know, everything that we're going through right now. And there's just so much polarity that I think is deeply, deeply hurting people. and everyone, many people can feel it. And I think that if we can look at each other as kind of like our community, our brothers and sisters, like we're all family,

we're all deeply connected and we all need to be in this together, then I think that, and I think that that's, you know, a lot of the learnings that you can get from these experiences, then we can treat each other much differently. We can look at each other with compassion. We can understand that everybody is really just a, combination of their own past experiences and their own traumas, their own hurts and just, I would say maybe live in a more compassionate way, you know, have forgiveness and then ultimately

figure out like collaborate together and like, how can we make this better? And that's the most important part, you know, like how can we, how can we work together to make this better? How can be a better species and work together, collaborate together in a more productive way, a more loving way and a more effective way. There's so many better ways that we can be doing things. I love it. And when I start processing everything, it makes me think that you take this medicine

and then you become the medicine that helps everybody else. You know what I mean? Like obviously don't have a God complex or something like that, but it really helps you become a better version of yourself. And when you do that, your relationships change. You can change the world by changing your perception and it seems to me and my experience has taught me that these particular medicines have really helped me have a better relationship with myself and thus all my other

relationships have flourished because of it. It's it's amazing to think of how simple something can be if we have the courage to embrace it and I'm really thankful. Jessica, you've been incredibly gracious with your time today. Thank you so much for being here. I'm hopeful we can do some more of these but as and landing the plane would you be so kind as to tell people what you have coming up, where people can find you and what you're excited about. Sure, absolutely. So please connect with me on LinkedIn. I always like to stay connected to everybody. So you can find me there, Jessica Tracy. And if you want to reach out via email, you can send me a message on LinkedIn or via email, which is jessica at the sagecollective.co,

and geez, I'm excited about a lot of different things. Yeah, I'm excited about just, you know, where, you know, everything with psychedelic medicine is going to be going and, you know, how we can continue to educate and create that access. And, you know, what are the different ways that we can support individuals in working with these medicines? And I would say I'm particularly excited about this, about my work with young and coaching. You know, I think one of the things I've realized through my own journey and my own conversations with people is that, well, not everyone is ready to work with the medicine. And I find this as, you know, this approach as a really,

really beautiful way to take people into their unconscious, into their psyche, to, you know, kind of become more connected intuitively to themselves to get information to guide them in, you know, different challenges, different dilemmas, or to kind of get them on their path to be working, to be living out, living in more alignment and also to be fulfilling and kind of living out their purpose. And I'm really excited to see where that goes. And, you know, kind of this combination of the psychedelics world and the Jungian world is something that I'm really excited about as well, where we can use these tools, these principles, these approaches to help individuals that have had either challenging psychedelic experiences or that maybe still can't make sense

of something that they saw or something that they heard or something that they experienced. And, you know, that's a really important, I think, message that the psyche is trying to give and share, so to be able to help people work through and really kind of understand what's the message behind it for me is really, really fascinating. And then lastly, I'm also going to be working towards teaching a course on psychedelics, so that's super exciting as well. And I'm not going to get into where and that, but I'm always like just, one, you know, anything that I have used for my own healing and my own transformation,

ultimately my goal is to share that, educate people on that, so that way if it's something that may benefit them, they can use it. So that's really the goal and the mission is to just anything that I've been able to benefit from. I just want to put it out there and share it. And, hopefully it's able, hopefully other people can leverage it for their own healing, their own transformation. Yeah. Thank you for doing that. I think you're doing a tremendous job at it. I'm super stoked you're out there doing it. You know, I've heard a rumor once that the red book was Carl Young's experimentation with psychedelics.

Have you heard that rumor? Any thoughts on that rumor? Yeah, I've heard, I've heard two schools of thoughts. So I actually heard that he did not, that he had a lot of hesitancy around psychedelic medicine. And I think the reason being is that he could very easily go into the unconscious and go into the psyche and work with the shadows, like, without the medicine. And, you know, I very much connect to that because I feel a lot of what I experience as well as being able to very much see the complexes, the shadows and, you know, symbols and images, whether it be, you know, just kind of like going in there,

having it come to me or through dreams. So I think that, you know, if he did end up taking psychedelics, he probably ended up saying, wow, this is like very, very similar to what he was experiencing his own work, but, you know, it could make sense that those stories and what he wrote were through his own psychedelic experiences. But from my understanding, a lot of that work was just this kind of very intentional self-study that was kind of always going on. And that I think the veil was just kind of maybe very thin between the unconscious and conscious for him. So this material was it was often brought to the forefront and often brought into his awareness. You know, whether he found ways to practice going in there or not, it was brought to his

awareness. So he was able to write about them because they were so evident. You know, I think many people, the unconscious, it does impact how you're acting and what you say, but it's not as evident. We're not as, you know, people may not be as aware of it. But the more you do this work, and I think even the more you work with this medicine, you are able to tap into that space a lot more easy. And I think a lot of what he wrote was just that he was either intentionally or just kind of happened for him. It was easier for him to tap into that space.

Do you think that all this turmoil, this time of change we're in is like an unconscious explosion into the conscious? Yes. Yes. And that's the work of the collective contest. And so, yeah, and that's why, you know, we always go back to, you know, everyone hopefully can be doing their own work on themselves to better themselves. And to focus on, like, you know, it's with so much negativity in front of us all the time between news and social media, you know, you're always seeing things that are like negative. And that caused a lot of fear for people. And, you know, it's easy to worry and to feel sad about it.

I shouldn't even say it's easy. It's natural to worry and to feel sad about that. You know, that's often a lot of, you know, what that purpose is to kind of, you know, a lot of the news, it keeps people divisive divided. So I always, you know, try to focus on like, okay, well, what do we want to see? And how do we want this world to be? and how what's my role in helping to make that shift. So if we can always try to focus on,

well, what do we want this world to be like? What do we want to see? What do we want to experience? And then how can I show up to kind of be that change? Everyone is very powerful. So one person showing up in, you know, the change they want to see in the world is going to have a massive ripple effect

in on, in everyone in their community and beyond. So just kind of like really, understanding the collective unconscious and what we can do to improve our reality is to first start within. And I know it to be true for my own personal experiences. You know, once you realize that everybody is a mirror for you and that everyone is just kind of mirroring what you have going on internally, like you can really start intentionally making these changes and being more aware of like how you react and just showing up more intentionally of how you want, how you want to be and how you want others to treat you, I think absolutely does have pretty massive shifts in

your environment. Yeah, I love it. I am. Jessica's super thankful for everything today. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're within the sound of my voice or Jessica's voice, go down to the show notes, whether it's today, live, tomorrow, or five years from now, go down and check out the show notes and reach out to her. She's doing some incredible things. And I think that if you're interested in this, she'd probably like to hear from you. So go down there. Jessica, hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful weekend. I hope you choose to do some work and make yourself the best possible version of yourself and all your relationships flourish. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.