TrueLife - Jessica Tracy - Voyage of Initiation

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Voyage of initiationWelcome to The Voyage of Initiation—a podcast not for the faint of ego.This is the edge where psyche meets system, where myth bleeds into reality, and where transformation demands a toll. If you’re here, it means you’ve felt it too—that crack in the world. That tension between what is and what could be.I’m George Monty, your host, fellow rebel, and eternal student of the symbolic and the strange. And today, you’re not just listening—you’re entering the rite.Jessica is a liminal being—equal parts strategist and shadow-worker. A Jungian insurgent disguised as a healthcare innovator. A weaver of archetypes, systems, and symbols, working to transmute the soulless machinery of modern life into something sacred.She’s not here to fix the system—she’s here to dismantle the illusion.Jessica’s background is a kaleidoscope of experience: Jungian, insurance alchemist, genetic oracle, psychedelics, and myth-maker. She’s walked through the corridors of industry and emerged with a map of the unconscious scrawled in the margins of bureaucracy. She’s not reforming the world—she’s initiating it.In this series, we’re not talking treatments. We’re talking transformation.This is the realm of the wounded healer, the trickster, the anima, the death of ego, and the alchemy of trauma.This is the collective unconscious whispering through systems. This is shadow integration in real time.We’re going to ask the questions polite society avoids:—Is the system itself the patient?—Has the healer become the gatekeeper?—What dies when the mask of professionalism slips?—And can the soul find its way back through the psychedelic doorway?So light the incense, sharpen the sword, and put your psyche in the front seat.This isn’t therapy.This is initiation.And today, we begin with Jessica Tracy.https://www.jessicathejungian.coach/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini, check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. Hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining.

I hope the birds are singing. I have an incredible show for you today. Not so much as a guest, but a co-host, a new series we're working on called Voyage of Initiation. I have with me today the incredible co-host of the show, my friend, incredible individual, Jessica Tracy. And I want to explain to people a little bit of what we got going on today. I've put out a formal sort of idea, and here it is.

It's the edge where psyche meets system, where myth bleeds into reality and where transformation demand the toll. If you're here, listening. It means you felt it too. That crack in the world, that tension between what is and what could be. I'm George Monty. My host is, my co-host is Jessica. She's a liminal being, equal-part strategist and shadow worker, a youngian insurgent disguised as a healthcare innovator, a weaver of archetypes, systems and symbols, working to transmute the soulless machinery of modern life into the sacred. She's not here to fix the system. She's here to dismantle the illusion. Jessica, it's incredible

that you're here today. We've been working on this for a long time. How are you today? I'm doing great. I'm super excited to be here. We always have such a fun conversation, really interesting topic, so I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. You have been doing some incredible stuff, and I kind of wanted to give people a little bit of background of some of the things that you've been doing. You were just recently in Mexico, and you did this incredible thing that I have never heard of in my life called the Medicine of the Ghost. And I thought that would be a great place to start, just for people that may not know what that is or who you are. Can you give us a little background on that journey and what happened there?

Yeah, absolutely. So I was in Peru, actually, and I was working with Wachuma, the San Pedro Medicine, and it's a really beautiful medicine. I don't know if you've worked with it in the past or if you're familiar with it, but it's the grandfather spirit, somewhat similar to ayahuasca in that it's about a 12-to-14-hour journey, so quite intense and multiple journeys over a period of a few days. So you're definitely doing some pretty deep work. Now, with this medicine, I would say it's very much a heart medicine.

So it really does work to go into those emotional wounds, help to heal any old familial, relational traumas that you may be carrying. and it also very much connects us back to nature, which we know we all need quite incredibly right now. And I would say that it also does a really beautiful job of getting you out of the mind and into the heart. So I believe it's very much a medicine for Westerners because we obviously are so kind of like over-circuited in our brains. So getting us out of their mind and into the hearts. Now, while I was there and working with that medicine, I also worked with an acupuncturist. And that acupuncture specializes in the medicine of the ghost.

So his practice is to use acupuncture as a tool to go into the body where we store a vast majority of our traumas. And those traumas get stored in our energetic system as well as our. physical organs. And there are these pressure points throughout our bodies that when, when activated through the acupuncture needle, can release a surge of energy that may be blocked or stored. And his work also is very much involved in looking at, are there any other, you know, let's say, spirits, entities, whatever it might be, that may be impacted. you as well. So in some cultures and religions, traditions, there is a belief that negative spirits

can impact or cause mental illness or mental health conditions. So he uniquely specializes in that practice in helping individuals to identify if there are any other types of maybe modalities that might be impacting an individual. And, you know, I can share too. When I went through this process of the acupuncture specifically, I was quite amazed by the amount of physical trauma that actually gets stored in the organs and the body. You know, we don't know body keeps the score, but everyone's like pretty familiar with that. And I'll just share, you know, I've been doing a ton of work on myself to release old traumas, to move through old wounds, to get outscored energy in the system, and everything from, you know, breath work, yoga, meditation,

psychedelic medicine, all of the things. So, you know, I felt as though I had been doing a lot of work on myself. And but then when I went through the acupuncture. Wait, real fast, Jessica. Can you tell people at what point in time did you? go through the acupuncture? Like, you were, like, at the height of, like, a San Pedro trip, weren't you? Like, I think that's imperative for people to understand.

Like, that's not, like, it's not just like you went out and got acupuncture. Maybe you could fill in that part of the story. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yes. So, so I happen to just go through the acupuncture two times during two of the three medicine session. So this didn't happen for everybody, but for when my acupuncture sessions landed, they just

happen to lands during the times of going through the medicine journey with this. I can't imagine. It was, yeah, I know. It was pretty intense. You know, I think that experience was pretty interesting. And I was kind of just thinking, like, are you sure this is okay at the same time? But I think that it just, I think it drops your guard down a little bit. Yeah.

And it really allows you to just kind of like open up and just let go of whatever needs to be released and to come out. Yes, that's a really good point. This to me speaks of initiation. You know, and you spoke a little bit about in the Western world. Like, you have a foot in both worlds. Like, you are a dynamic, incredible individual that has worked it. You've worked through bureaucracies.

You've worked through health care. You've worked in the corporate world. And now you're exploring this other world. Like, you have an incredible degree in the youngian psychology. Like, this speaks to me of initiation. This sounds like something that, you know, you're not going down and sitting in a circle or like you're not going down to do it. And like at the height of a psychedelic journey, you're getting acupuncture.

And that to me sounds like where there's real commitment to the body. Like there's real commitment to the mystery at this point in time. There's no way you can't let go and do that. Like that is just courage on some level. Like is it a ritual on some level or how do you feel about it? It's not a role. It's not like you're a CEO or something. Like this is a ritual.

This is a real lived event. I think it takes a lot of courage. It did take a lot of courage. And yeah, maybe I'll dive into that a little bit more. So, you know, the first session, like I said, these things, the way they planned it, it is very, they allow it to flow, right? Because they don't think to overthink things. So the first session that I had with the medicine and going through the acupuncture,

I'll say it was pretty intense. It was when he, when we talked and he said, okay, well, you know, there's, I'm identifying that there is a lot of fear that is stored in the kidney. And there is an overactive mind, elements of overactive mind that's stored in the sleep. So he went into those pressure points and used the acupuncture. And I just felt a complete surge of energy just released from my shin area and just like brush all the way up my leg into my hip area. and it was like it was pretty mind-boggling at first to experience that surge of energy and to know that like yes I felt that there was even though I was doing all that work I felt as though there was some something that was off energetically

and it was clearly because of the traumas that I had experience that I hadn't worked on they were still stored energetically and physiologically in my body and even though I was doing all of the other work That had not moved out. The second experience that I had, though, this was on my third medicine journey, which was when I had the highest dose of the medicine. I know that that was, I guess, you could say it was initiation because we went to a sacred site. And at that sacred site, it was focused on working with your ancestors and very ritualistic and engaging with the ancestors and calling them in. And I did a lot of that. I called in, you know, generations and generations and generations to be with me.

Now, I didn't expect, I expected this journey on the third day to be really almost like euphoric because I was feeling so much in my heart space from the other two journeys that I felt like that's the way it was going to be. But the medicine had another idea for me. And it actually went into a lot of the stored traumas that were. still there. And when that started to come up, we got called into lunch on Wachuma, you actually do eat, do eat three meals a day, which is much different, obviously, than other medicines. So all of this was coming up for me. And as I'm, and I'm feeling it,

and it's feeling very unsettling. And as I'm walking to lunch, all of a sudden, the acupunctrists comes out of nowhere and says it's time for our sessions. I'm like, of course it is. So we go. And It did feel, again, almost like this initiation because I have this stuff just like bubbling up. And when we, when we sat down, I talked to him and I just said, like, look, there's a lot of just kind of this overwhelm of fear that is coming up for me right now. So he said, okay, well, and he felled into my rest. And he said there is, you know, basically a fear that's stored here around the heart that's kind of like startling. And then there is fear that stored deep, deep, deep down inside. So this is old, old trauma that I had really, really stuck away and probably significantly suppressed by all the medication that I took before.

Right. So I said, okay, well, can we get it out? And he said, yes, we can. So I said, okay, I trust you, let's do this. And so when he worked with, when he worked with the acupuncture needles, he went into a few different spots again in my shin, my feet and wrist and then right in my stomach area. and I'll tell you that when when he started with these needles I was like flooded flooded with just fear and almost to the point of crisis yeah it was quite traumatic it lasted for about 30 minutes but at the same time you know I trusted the process I just kept you know I asked him like

promise this is going to stop and he said yes I from fear so I was like okay that's good no And then I just went through all of those past traumas and it just rushed out. It flooded out. I had to literally physiologically sit and experience all of it. And then eventually after about 30 minutes or so, it started to subside. There was still this evacuation process throughout the rest of the day where I had to still kind of experience this like, kind of like ickiness, this very like icky feeling of fear and uneasiness for the rest of the day. I did find ways. to kind of like tap back into that really safe space in my heart later. Most of that was by doing medicine songs and working with the shamanic drum. But by the next day, I woke up and I was a completely different person. I mean, I just felt all of that just completely like removed from my system. So yeah, I guess you could call it an initiation. Without a doubt.

Like it reminds me of what Merce Iliad calls the terror before the sacred. And on some level, it seems to me like when I look at so much that happened in my life or when I look at society as a whole, I tend to look at my life and then look at the whole like, oh, that's what's happening in my life is what's happening in the world. I guess that's just the lens to which is very clear for me to see. But, you know, it's this idea of sitting with like the most uncomfortable things and not being able to run away. And I feel like there's a whole, there's such a giant lack of that in our world.

And it's just bringing everything down. Like we hide behind all these systems and money and profit and all these things. But all along we're just pushing down who we're supposed to be. We're just pushing down what we're supposed to have. As through the Youngian lands, like, what do you think about that or just in person? What do you think? Oh, yeah. I agree 100%.

I mean, like, we're, and I was guilty for this. We're so, like, just used to taught programs to just like want to distract, want to run away, to suppress, want to numb, all of those uncomfortable feelings. And, you know, it's understandable because we're not really given tools to cope with challenging emotions, challenging situations. You know, it's very much, sorry. I love dogs. Yeah, so we're very much taught to kind of just like run away from it, walk away from it, distract from it. And we're also given, you know, our modern day tools that were given our tools to numb, whether it be alcohol or medication or just overworking or distracting, you know, the phone and

social media. And by doing so, you absolutely do kind of take yourself away from your most authentic self. That is like there's this whole exploration process that needs to be done. You need to explore that pain, explore why it's there, explore who you are without it. But the only way to move it is actually to process it, like emotion. mentally, spiritually, physiologically, you know, when animals, when they go through a traumatic experience, they go and they shake. Their entire body just shakes and convulsives because they're getting out that trauma that otherwise would get stored in the body. We need to do the same thing,

but we're not taught that. We're not taught that, hey, you just had trauma, go shake it out, move it out, you know, and that's like a legitimate process that we have to happen. So so much of this is just like, no, we're strong, we're independent, we're good. We just brush it under the rug. We move on. And, you know, and that happens, I think, too often. And in doing so, it definitely does, I think, not allow you to really see who you are underneath at all, right? Because, you know, a lot of times these traumas happen, when they happen, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, They're going to teach you something, right? If you're able to face them and walk towards them and explore what happened, how you responded,

you know, what you should be doing differently there. They're absolutely there as teachers and as messengers, you know, even as traumatic as these things can be. But unless we do that deep work to really explore, you know, the what, the why, the how and the what now, you know, you can't truly understand, I think, who you truly are. And, you know, that's the process of like, of consciousness and becoming more conscious. And, you know, Young says that, you know, you're only as free, you're basically only as free to the degree of the level of consciousness that you are. So the more conscious that you are means that you have to be more aware of the unconscious

and everything that's driving your fears, your motives, your desires, your thoughts, your behaviors, all of that. you have to have a pretty intense level of awareness. And to do so, you have to sit in all of it, not just the happy times, but also like all of the discomfort, the terror, all of the things that we don't want to face too. And like, they're our greatest teachers, too. The most challenging situations in our lives are the most, our greatest teachers. It's so well said.

It speaks of courage on so many levels. Can you have insights without annihilation? Do you think? Can you have real insights without annihilation? I personally believe that you have to go into the darkness to really be able to have a greater level of consciousness. I just, I don't, I mean, there's no, you can't get to enlightenment without going through the darkness. I don't think you can get to true authenticity without going through the darkness. I just don't think it's possible.

I don't, no, I don't think it's possible. We can't connect with individuals if you don't on, you know, to a deeper degree if you don't go through these processes as well. I agree 100%. You know, again, with courage, like, I know some of the things that you've done in your life. You know some of mine. Like, I've seen, I've held my son's dead body. I've sat in a cancer diagnosis when they're like, we think it's stage four, you know? in, I've seen a lot. And so has everybody else. So has everybody else. But where do you find

the courage, Jessica, to walk away from a life that was providing you a good life, not a great one, but was providing you security. Like, that is a very difficult thing for people to do that have a family, that have loved ones, that are insecure, that have spent maybe their whole life building something, and they realize this ladder's up against the wrong wall. Like, where do you find the courage to walk away? Like how, what was it for you? Like, what was it for you? That made you go, you know what? I'm doing something different. And I don't care what anybody says. I don't care my mom, my dad, my friends, my coworkers. I don't care what they say. I mean, I care, but I'm going to do it anyway. Like, where do you, can you tell me, walk me through that example?

Like, where does that courage come from? Is it something that builds up? Is it a weight on your shoulders that just drags on you until you do something about it? Like, what is it? And how do you do do you do it? I think it's a combination of both. I do think that for me, I think a lot of the anxiety that I was struggling with, like you said, I had a very comfortable life. I was making a ton of money. I was traveling all the over. You're crushing. Yeah, I worked my way up and the corporate ladder. But at the same time, I just kept feeling like, is this it? You know, it just kept saying, like, the more money I would make every single time, it'd be like, you know, the huge, huge check for a big sale or something and it would just be like, but I didn't feel any different, right? Or it was like

something, you know, felt good for the time being. And then, and then you just spend more. So to me, it was just like, this just feels like empty. Now, granted, I love to be, you know, travel, the world with money and like be able to help other people, donate. Like, that was obviously something that was really important to me and beneficial. But I just, I felt that there was more. And I just knew, I knew that there was something greater for me. And where I was at, it just didn't seemed like it was it. So that's one of just this like awareness of like there, there is something more. There was way more. And, and just, I just didn't want to keep living my life in the direction it was heading. And then I think the other aspect of it is the anxiety

and the insomnia that comes with not listening to, I guess, that call, right? That initiate, that call to action. And that actually caused me quite a bit of anxiety. So the anxiety, so the anxiety was caused by traumas, but it was also caused by, like, hey, you're not in alignment with who you truly are and your highest purpose. You need to start making some moves. And the longer I didn't listen, the less I slept, the more anxious I got. And it basically just said, you know, you have to have to move the moves. And I think what happens is, for me, like, anytime I'm, scared of something and I have fear, I go towards it. I have to walk towards it. I want to walk towards it, I want to see what's on the other side. So for me, it's just knowing that if there

is fear around something, it generally means that I have to do it. So then it's finding, like, the best path forward to see how I can navigate that in, let's say, the most exciting way possible. Because you have to explore, you have to explore fear with curiosity and excitement. You can't look at it as fear. You have to look at it as, okay, There's just something in the unknown here that I'm not aware of yet. I have some level of fears that probably means that there's something on the other side that is for me. And here's like another kind of tester level that I have to like face to get to it.

So I kind of look at it as more as like a challenge or, you know, a little bit of like curiosity to go explore that path. I love it. It's such a beautiful answer. We got my good friend over here, Robert Sean Davis. He says the courage it would take integrating those together beyond incredible. Robert, thanks for being here. Indeed, incredible.

I've never heard anybody do that ceremony and get acupuncture at the height of a medicine journey. It's remarkable to me. And to get to hear some of the results from it, I'm so thankful for it. Clint Kyle's, I love you, buddy. He says, yeah, it's hard to walk away from the perceived security. I think that that's where we're at right now, Jessica. It seems to me that the world is changing so fast and the rate of change is so fast that people are going to be demanded to make a change.

And you either can choose to do it or you can choose not to do it. But the choice is yours today. The world is changing so fast. And if you have an opportunity to step in to who you're supposed to be versus who you want to be, I think you should definitely take that chance. It's out there on so many levels. When we talk about ceremonies or plant medicine or youngians, I always say something about what.

Yeah, please. I love that he perceived security because that's absolutely. true. It is perceived, right? Because the other thing I realized, too, is like, you don't really need all that money. You know, like, you really have to figure out, like, how much do you actually need? And then, like, what, what, right? It's just the shifting in values. I think that my values were a little construed at the time, thinking that, like, that success. Like, that's, I guess what I had to find as success. And I just have a totally different definition of success now. No, I think when you're in this space, like, you can still make good money and a good living, right? You're putting something energetically out and ultimately money is another energetic exchange. So there, you know, you can still, you know, be doing really well in this in the space. But I think that it was just like a perceived security that all that's, you know, the safe, the steady job, you know, the title, the resume, the finances, like all of that did mean security.

But the reality of it is like it actually didn't because it was impacting my mental health. And my emotional security was not, you know, as intact as it should be. And my security around fulfillment, my security around happiness, my security around freedom, that necessarily wasn't, you know, fully intact. So I think it was really just like stepping away. And there is this weird period too where you're like, okay, like, am I making the right decision? you know, how am I going to do? How am I going to build all of this?

But again, you figure it out and you learn so much from it that, like, you just would, and I think it also just, like, creates opportunities that you would never have access to if you don't take these, like, leaps of faith or just, like, these steps in, you know, a different direction. Yeah, it's well said. Joshua Moyer, the incredible musician, the incredible individual. Oh, Joshua one more. I got Roberta coming up next, but Joshua says, also, the security of the world is a slippery slope as well. Very true. Yes. Yeah. I love the idea of the perceived security and the security of the world. It reminds me of the Pink Floyd song.

Did you trade a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? Like so many of us are given that opportunity. Like the cage is there if you want it. You can take it. But live a little bit. of our thoughts, too, that just brings up. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where I was at before, like this, this cage that I had created with my thoughts, right, around like what I'm allowed to do, what I'm supposed to do, what I should do, what's even possible. I think once you start, like, once you kind of remove the cage of your thoughts, kind of

step outside of that, like, it's, things are pretty, like, limitless, right? There is a lot of potential outside of this kind of, like, cage. that you've created in your head around like what you should shouldn't can't do so that is the big aspect of this as well i love that i think it speaks to the idea of language too you know and as a youngian like you're familiar with symbols and in the altered states of awareness like we're showing all these different symbols you know and i always wonder and i'm curious to get your thoughts are do you think that the symbols whether youngian or indigenous are the shared vocabulary between the human mind and the spirit world? What are your thoughts?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, symbols absolutely. They're, you know, representations of, you know, I think the symbolic nature of the collective unconscious, for sure. So I think that there's, I think symbols do represent, you know, aspects of the collective unconscious, but then they also have a very, a uniqueness to them as well. So, um, while there are these symbols that are representative of, you know, something that everyone can agree upon, that same symbol may have a very unique, a very unique description or meaning to that individual. So that way, you know, when we're working, let's say, when I'm working with someone in psychedelic integration, right, in through the young end modality,

symbols obviously come up a lot because individuals experience or see symbols during their psychedelic journeys and they're not sure what they mean. And it's very easy, I think, for someone to just go and Google and say, hey, what does this symbol mean? And yes, that can give you some sort of guidance. And there are these kind of like collective definitions of symbols, but then you really do have to take it steps further and really just kind of like, peel back that onion and find out what that symbol represents specifically to that individual. You know, how does it make you feel? What does it remind you of?

You know, have you seen it before? What experiences does it bring up for you? You know, what other images, symbols, does it connect to? So, yeah, so a little bit of both. Yeah. For me, the symbols are, it's just like a number. of the language on some level. And it allows you to think in a dynamic or a different dimension that you can't do with words. Like words fail us on so many levels. And sometimes at the height

of a journey or doing some breathwork or just walking through nature, like your like answers are revealed to you. Like things you didn't even know you're really thinking about. You're like, oh, look at this thing over here. And then all of a sudden, this whole idea is just born inside your mind that becomes a light to guide you forward in so many different ways. It's amazing to me. I think it also speaks to patterns, right? The idea of patterns in your life and where you're going and what you're capable of. What is the relationship between symbols and patterns

in the young Ian lens? Yeah, well, I would definitely say what comes to mind from me is synchronicities, right? So patterns, if you're seeing certain things, certain patterns come up, you're probably likely to experience a synchronicity, and obviously that's a very Eeyn-LEN concept. And I think that,

yeah, I think that they're very intertwined. Yeah, to me, just the concept of synchronicity comes up. And just knowing that, you know, there's these symbols, images, experiences, emotions, feelings that may arise just to give you, let's say, guidance or unknowing that, hey, you're on the right path or, hey, here's a message for you. I do that ultimately they are kind of just like messaging. that are being delivered to you through symbols, through patterns, just to give you guidance, whether it's your on the right direction or perhaps shifting a direction, or perhaps just giving you,

you know, a message from your unconscious, from your psyche, from ancestors, whatever it might be. It's well said. Roberta Harvey chime in and over here. Roberta, thank you so much for being here. She says, yes, thank you for this and the young synchronicity, because sounding similar to my experience of walking away from the system. Roberta, thank you for walking away from the system. Thank you for having the courage to do it. It's not easy. And I hope other people listening, read your, read the comment right here, listen to Jessica, listen to the podcast and

find the courage to do it too because I, there's something beautiful about walking towards the edge of the cliff, you know, or walking towards the, the, she says, happy St. George's Day too. There's something about slaying the dragon, right? There's something about writing up to it and and doing what you need to do about it and finding the courage to slay the dragon. You know, we talk about patterns and symbols and both of us have this incredible relationship with psychedelics. I'm curious to get your thoughts on. How do you, do you see some of the profiteering going on right now as something that could

hold back the whole system? Like on some level, like I see all these sales funnels being put up everywhere and drawing in people that maybe haven't really suffered or maybe drawing in people that are on the edge of awakening and then maybe giving them a certificate and telling them, look, you did it. You're a guide now. Do you think that this particular process may be something that hinders the movement going forward? Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, you have to be super careful in working with individuals and in guiding individuals. You know, you really have to, I think, have, I think there's a significant benefit in an individual that is supporting someone. else on their journey or their integration that has gone through their own version of hell. You have to be able to see the other individual, right, to understand the individual and what they're going through, you know, the level or degree of trauma and pain and suffering that that individual has experienced. That is incredibly important as,

in order to support an individual on their journey. And also, like, you don't know what could come up, right? And you have to be, like, extremely grounded. You have to have a lot of experience in working with these medicines and working with, I think, what might come up from in terms of trauma, in terms of, like, reactions, you know, from an individual during a journey or, you know, during their integration. like this is very deep, deep stuff and sometimes like very, very, very dark. And people's reactions during a journey, you know, can be quite unexpected, you know, at times.

And just going through kind of an online course is obviously not going to prepare someone for what may come up or how an individual may react or what an individual may need or or perhaps keeping an individual extremely grounded and knowing they're safe when, you know, something that might be happening may be concerning for the individual supporting that, that journey and that experience. So, yeah, I think there's, you know, there's many reasons why that could be dangerous. I think that, look, it's great that someone would go through an experience and, you know, get this call that they want to help people. I think it's like, you know, hopefully it starts with good intentions.

but absolutely, I think when people start looking at it's like, oh, this is an area where I can just make money, that absolutely is extremely, extremely, extremely dangerous. And this always has to be done with the highest level of intentions and with, I would say, the most authenticity as possible in working with individuals. I mean, Carl Jung says it very beautifully, and I might not get this quote exact, but he says when you know when you're you can get all of the know all the teachings you know know all the lessons but when you're working with another human soul just be another human soul and i think that that speaks to the level of integrity authenticity and like beautiful intention

that you have to have um but also you you do have to know darkness i think to support people in darkness you know i think that that's important and that I even know from my experiences in like working with people in psychedelic integration, like oftentimes people that I have worked with for whatever reason, I mean, I shouldn't say for whatever reason for reasons of synchronicity. I have people that I have worked with in integration have been individuals that have gone through similar sufferings than, um, that I have, which I find like incredibly interesting, but like it makes sense. And I think it just speaks to like those, those syncreticities, those patterns, um, that I think show.

that, you know, that, that experience, that knowledge, that understanding is incredibly important because, like, you have to know how to help somebody from here. Yeah. I believe the certificate, the teachings, like, they are helpful. Absolutely, they are helpful. But you have to know how to help someone from in here. You have to feel it in here. And I think that that's also this process of like this beautiful process of the soul working during that process of working with someone where whatever is needed, you know, let's say during integration will just come up to help support individuals during that experience.

And, you know, I think also too, maybe you talk about sitting with someone and, you know, individuals actually guiding individuals like they. have to have done so much work. They have to have worked with the medicine. And they also have to get to a point where they are super grounded to be able to sustain anything that may be experienced during the journey, but also to have their energy, their kind of energetic system in a way, at a level that can provide a really supportive and loving and safe container for the individual because they do tap into your energy while you're providing support. So you have to have a very clean, grounded, loving energy, I think, to be really able to provide individuals in the best possible way.

I love that. It's so well said. You know, my advice for people that want to be a guide, or if someone wants to be a guide, like it's a noble calling, and I get it, but I think if you want to be a guide, like, you should be automatically moved to the back of the line. Like, are you sure you want to be a guide? because the world, the divine intelligence has a way of like hearing you saying, I want to be a guide, and then ripping your family away from you. Oh, you want to be a guide? Let me just go ahead and kill the

person that's the closest to you. And then you tell me if you want to be a guy. You want to be a guide? Let me just throw this incredible curveball that feels like the world crashing down on you. Because that's where you begin to learn the language of experience. And without the language of experience, you know, you're not really doing anybody injustice. If I teach someone how to change the oil on their car, they're not a mechanic. Like they might be learning to be a mechanic, but they're not a mechanic. Like you said, when you start having people trying to help other people that don't have any experience, that's how you get the modern day school system. Like, that's how you get all these systems. We start slapping labels and rolls on people without the experience. Like, that's a

recipe for disaster, in my opinion. Is that too harsh? No, I think it's important. I mean, you're talking about working with people in an extremely vulnerable state. going through their most, their deepest traumas, their deepest fears. And, you know, also there maybe perhaps like most blissful experiences, but like all around, I mean, the individual has to be, has to be prepared in every aspect, right? You know, like there can't be any like egoist, egotistical aspects that come into it, you know, like obviously narcissism is really dangerous in this world as well. That's an extremely, extremely dangerous aspect to, you know, bring into this world.

So, yeah, and, you know, if you think about, like, traditionally, individuals that would be supporting participants through this journey are shamans. And often shamans are the wounded healer, right? They are the individuals that have gone through, like, such darkness, such hell to the point where it's almost like a sickness. Many of them may not ask, but they're given it, right? And they have to go through that deep, deep darkness come out on the other side with support of other shamans. And then that is generally that kind of like initiation to bring individual to working with others. So, yeah, I would say that we definitely have to be careful. And to your point, like, yes, if you have that calling and that's a beautiful thing.

but maybe it's just a lot more maybe just make sure that you've done your own deep deep deep work and have looked at your darkness before you know progressing forward yeah I don't understand how like the commodification of spirituality can't come with like a large dose of self-importance because the moment you start selling something especially if it's authority like if you are someone who's selling a certificate like you're selling authority you're saying look come down here, I'll help you, but just give me some money first. Just give me like 10, 20 grand, and I'll totally help you solve all these problems. Like, what are your thoughts on the commodification and self-importance?

Can those things ever be unchained together? Yeah, I think that this can happen, right? Because there's, you know, I think when people go through these experiences, there is like this kind of like God complex that you can. Yeah. And, yes, this level of, self-importance, like, you're the one that's going to be doing the healing. You're the one that's going to be changing, you know, individuals. And like, that's not actually the case, right? When you

are supporting someone in their healing journey, like, they are doing the healing. They have the power inside them. They are the medicine and have the medicine inside of them. A guide's journey is really, a guide is really there to help an individual feel safe enough to tap into that medicine that's within them. So I think oftentimes you can see maybe individuals believing that they are going to, you know, heal other people and, you know, to some degree like certain, certain maybe physical treatments, you actually are doing some level of healing, right? When we talk about like this kind of like emotional and mental healing that is done through a psychedelic journey, that is where the individual is tapping into their own healing capacity

that they very much have within inside themselves. So yeah, so I do think that the commoditizing off of the space, is definitely challenging because it can bring individuals in that perhaps are not prepared or ready to be able to support individuals. I think it definitely obviously can cause, you can see a lot of like ego inflation and, you know, perhaps some narcissism. So all of that obviously is very dangerous that we have to be aware of. Now, at the same time, you know, I do think, though,

that, you know, people that are doing work in this space, if you do want to, you know, um, uh, work in this world, you do also have to make a living, right? And there does have to be a way, um, to be able to authentically end with integrity, make a living by doing, um, by doing this work or healing work within the healing realm. I think that that's necessary. Otherwise, individuals won't be able to do it. Right. So it's finding this, this balance. And I think ultimately, It's just making sure that individuals that are engaging in it, it's soul work, it's heart work. And that there is, you know, this, like you said, this process of initiation and really kind of like coming into it and taking your time to really come into it and slowly being able to engage an offer. Yeah.

My hope is that like as we move through this process, like if you want to help people, like maybe you should field suicide calls at a crisis center. Maybe you should work at the Boys and Girls Club. Like, that's a noble calling to help people. But a lot of people are like, no, no, you don't get it, George. I want to make money in psychedelics. And I'm like, okay, well, then you shouldn't be here. You know what I mean? Like, that's the wrong answer.

If you want to help me. And maybe there should be other guidelines. Like, maybe you should have like 2,500 hours in an altered state of awareness before you can even become something like that. And maybe those are, maybe those things are going to start happening. But there's just some ideas that, like, when I think about it, like, I'm so passionate about it and I care about it. And I say people like Kat Kerner who had her whole family ripped away.

Like this is a guide right here. Like this is someone that has lived experience and thoroughly understands what loss is about. Not only what loss is about, but the lessons you get from it. And beyond all that, how to celebrate it. It seems like in the Western world, we've forgotten how to celebrate someone leaving this world. Like, and you look at the Eastern traditions where they have this party afterwards or they'll take the bones and they'll speak to them every morning. and like there's this relationship you have with letting go.

I'm curious. Do you think that that's like a major difference between sort of the indigenous world or the eastern world and the western world? This is a relationship with death that we have? Yeah. I think celebration in general and rites of passage. I think it's just different rights of passage is so incredibly important. Yeah, it's something that we don't really have.

We've lost in our culture and our society. like every aspect of it, you know, even, you know, starting with, you know, coming into womanhood when, you know, the girl gets her first menstrual cycle or her starts her moon cycle, you know, in other cultures, they do a whole ceremony, like, you know, bringing you into a woman's womanhood. And now it's just like, oh, here's this gross thing or here's this, you know, now I'm embarrassed because it's, you know, in front of my friends. And it's like there's shame around it. And, you know, that's, I'm actually going to be working. with this woman from Ireland who does all of these rites of passage and, you know,

structures these celebrations around, like you said, celebrations around death, you know, ritual celebrations around even something like a hysterectomy, you know, celebrating, you know, what was lost in celebrating this kind of new bird that was gained. And I just think that everything, there's like a lot of maybe like entitlement, entitlement of just like we can have whatever we want as long as we decide it. But you have to, I still believe you have to kind of like earn these things through your heart and through your soul. And then also just provide them, you know, go through these experiences in a very intentional way. So yeah, with death specifically, I mean, there's so much fear around death in our society.

But once you, I think, really understand death and consciousness and, you know, the universe, like it's, it actually is a means to celebrate, right? Because, like, there's so much suffering in this world. And really, we're here to learn, right? It's a school to be here to learn. And there's, and there's. more suffering here than, you know, one can likely experience anywhere else. So there is kind of this celebration that that should happen for individuals when they pass on. And, you know, at that point,

they're going with ancestors, you know, like all of their ancestors. And they don't experience and have to feel, you know, the pain and suffering that we very much do here on earth. So yeah, I definitely think it's something that we've lost sight of and I think should be brought back. And I would love to start bringing that back. I mentioned I'm going to be working with a Celtic shaman just to actually just start to learn these traditions of my Irish heritage and that, you know, my ancestors practiced and start to bring them back to people

because I think we're just in general, we're so disconnected from everything. You know, I didn't know much about my ancestors. I didn't know much about ancient healing practices that we did in Ireland or how we celebrated or how we kind of like came together in community and how we experience these rites of passages. So it's something now that I've, is very near and dear to my heart that I'm really very deeply engaging in now moving forward. I can't wait to check that out. I think you are an amazing example of what is possible when you have the courage to

to wrestle with uncertainty. You do so much cool stuff. I think it's such a cool thing for people to go and see and learn about. Let me jump to some of these comments. I've got to stacking up with you. Sorry, everybody. I'm just enjoying my time with Jessica. Not sharing it with everybody else.

Lighter, what's cracking my brother? He says, yes, we are always relating to parallel versions of ourselves, recapitulating our own journey. Any thoughts on that? Oh, yeah. I'm trying to gather my thoughts around that. Yeah, like I do think, you know, we shift into different versions of ourselves depending on like where our energy is and where we allow our energy to go.

Definitely go into lower versions of ourselves, higher versions of ourselves, and you can feel it. You know, once you start to become aware of all this, you can very much feel the difference of the version of yourself that you are. it shifts all the time. And I do think that's like how you create a reality that you want, right? As you really do focus and put emphasis on like the energetic being that we are and determining, well, where do I want the direction of my life's ahead. And I need to then align my energy up with that. Right. So if I'm always in a negative fearful state, I can't open up these

like incredible opportunities or these like, you know, really exciting opportunities for myself because I'm in a state of fear and I'm basically saying that I'm too afraid of them, right? Or if I'm feeling, let's say, a level of unworthiness around something, then that opportunity might be there for me, but it's not going to come to me. It's going to stay far over there until I decide that I can do it or I'm worthy enough or, you know, it's for me. So I think that aligning your energy with what you want in your life is really what kind of like helps you to create that desired reality and that very much is depicted by your thoughts. And I think our thoughts are kind of like this, well, our thoughts, I mean the thoughts that you choose, right? Also are, I guess kind of determining what version of you are, what version of you are you at this.

very time. And what I what is great is you get do get to choose every single time. You get to choose and it's really hard right because these thoughts are a little like obsessive or you know we've got complexes. We've got egos. We've got these like energetic charges that are inside of us as well that are that are going to show up based on a certain situation or trigger experience. So like none of this is easy right. You can like it's easy to say it but it's something that you have to like literally practice like all day, every day to just like continue to learn how to ultimately like manipulate or maneuver. It's probably not the right word. Negative connotation never like maneuver your energy in the direction that you wanted to be to

kind of like live and experience this version of yourself that you want to. But at the same time, like falling into other versions of yourself is okay too because you're always going to get something beneficial and learning out of that. Like I used to have so much shame when I would fall into a version of myself that like I didn't want to react that way or I didn't want to like get so caught up in this emotion and I still do and I have to sometimes step away and I would get shame or guilt but that would then make me hold on to that version or sink even deeper in that version because I had shame or guilt versus recognizing like okay I experience that I feel that I recognize I went there you know but that's okay

And now I can choose the shift. And once you start to like make these choices, you can like physically feel the shift in your energetic body and in your emotions. And again, like I said, it's a practice. It's something that you constantly have to do. It's so well said. It makes me think of the ideas of like inner dialogue or you hear voices or they're so destructive sometimes. And if you can't stop that pattern from happening, you cut that groove even deeper. And it becomes even more difficult to come out of those particular.

situations. How does your inner dialogue work, Jessica? Is it, do you hear something? Is it a pattern of thoughts? And how do you change or manipulate or work with or agree with or come into conversation with the inner dialogue? Yeah, I mean, it depends on where I'm at. You know, sometimes it's, sometimes it's, sometimes I can't stand it. Like, it just on what's going on. You know, if there's a certain, like, trigger that came up. So sometimes if there's a trigger that came up, I can absolutely get caught in a loop and there's ruminating thoughts. And what I've really, what I've really been practicing is discernment. That is something I've been practicing, like, pretty immensely because the thoughts are, they're very powerful. And, and no matter, like, how much, I think,

meditation you do, like, they're always going to be there, right? So I think one thing I've really been grateful to learn is that, like, I don't have to identify with these thoughts. These aren't my thoughts. These are thoughts, right? I'm grabbing on a certain thought for a reason, right? So for a reason, I did grab on a certain thoughts. Perhaps that's tied to an experience that I've had, something that's happening in this current

situation. Oftentimes it's connected to a belief system that I have or, you know, or, you know, let's say, yeah, a belief system that I have about myself. So when I'm grabbing onto something before, I would very much, like, go very much deep down that rabbit hole and just kind of like go and God would take me, right? And now, and sometimes it would be a lot of rumination. And now it's very much like, okay, I recognize that thought.

And when I, when there is a thought that is very much connected or a series of thoughts, it's very much connected with an emotional charge. that's where I have learned a pause. That's where I think you get sucked into this like deep dark portal of like just, you know, I think some really distracting thoughts. And when they're very much connected, that's where I have to pause and say,

okay, like there's an energetic charge here. There's some sort of complex that is grabbing onto this thought for a reason. So where is it coming from? Is it true? Do I believe it? What is it telling me? what do I feel like I need because of this thought? And is it, do I need that right now or did I need that in the past because it's connected

to something else? So there's just like now when I have these thoughts, there's a lot of question asking or like discernment that I do. But I think the key has been for me is the physical body, the physiological body. Because oftentimes that energetic charge will come through. And I think that's where I would have so much challenge, a challenge to discern or stop the thoughts from like progressing or getting sucked in. So being able to recognize, okay, there's a surge that came up in my body and it's, and I'm now connecting it to thoughts.

Oftentimes what I've learned is that, you know, there's going to be an experience that happens, let's say a trauma or a trigger. And that trigger is going to arise and you're going to get thoughts saying danger, danger, danger, basically, right? Because what happens is it's feeling something in your body that feels bad. Your brain doesn't really fully know what's happening. It just knows something bad in my body just happened. I feel fear. Oftentimes that fear probably came from the thought, and then your mind attaches it to the present-day situation. So it says, okay, you, that, something in front of me is causing this feeling in my body of, let's say, not safe. And then these thoughts start to happen in your mind that tell you why you're not safe and it's ultimately trying

to put it on something in front of you. But what I found is that oftentimes that's not actually what's happening. You know, something happens, trigger happens. You have, let's say a thought that comes up and your body has this physical experience. You have to almost step away and say, okay, something that just happened, brought this physical experience up. The reason it brought it up is actually because it needs to come out of my body. This is old. This is an old trauma or energetic charge that is stored inside my body, and it actually needs to be removed.

So my antenna brought me this situation that could represent or allow me to recall or remember a situation that happened in the past. So this energetic charge can come up and I can release it. But most of the time what happens is it comes up, your thoughts come into play and say, danger, danger, danger, and then you start reacting. And you start getting mad at the situation or the person or what the word is in front of you.

So I think that having this discernment and then also starting to look at these these experiences of thoughts and energetic charges being an opportunity for something that's stored in your body that wants to get out. So you actually call this experience in so it can bring it up because it reminded you of something and you can then go step away, shake it out, move it out, physiologically get it out of the body. And then what you find is those thoughts that made so much sense that were so right at that time actually aren't really true and you're okay. It's brilliant. I'm always fascinated to get to hear the way in which people move through the world

and the connection between the mind and the body. And it's amazing to me. Thank you for sharing it. Sometimes a mental image I use is that all your thoughts are like a line of children and you're sitting in this big throne room. And they're just waiting for attention. Like, look at me, look at me. Don't talk to me.

Hey, I thought there's an important one over here. So he's got to put them in a line. and you call each one of them up and you put them on your lap and you just sit with them for a little bit what's going on buddy you think that hmm okay I'll be aware of that you're good okay I'm gonna see you know get back to the back of the line I know you got more stuff but like if you just bring each one in and sit it on your lap and like give it some love and talk to it a little bit like I feel like they oh okay George I told you thanks okay and then you can move through them that way like that's my little imagery that I use bring them on up come on up here sit in the chair let's have a little chitch chat about it I love that It's so true because sometimes like that's the other, you brought up a good point. Sometimes they just want to be seen and heard, right? Sometimes it is a thought that it's just like, hey, I just want you to acknowledge the thought. Just acknowledge me, please. And then once you do, you just, okay, I see you, I hear you.

Thank you for letting me know that and I will be aware. And then it can, it just softens. So I agree. I think that that's such a great analogy. And I'm definitely going to use that for sure. Yeah. So that's awesome. Yeah, oftentimes it is just like being weird.

Like, hey, I see you, I hear you. Thank you. And if you ignore them, then they get louder. They start wearing crazy costumes and like, hey, okay, get this kid up here, you know? Yeah, yes, absolutely. And sometimes you just also need to, like, talk it out too. Like sometimes it's like, you know, with Youngian and in coaching, what I do with people in coaching, oftentimes I'll use kind of like the gestral as self-ego dialogue through the chair method.

And it allows individuals to kind of go back and forth with oftentimes like with the symbol or with the thought with something that came up and actually dialogue with this aspect of yourself, whether it be a complex, a symbol, an image. And it's ultimately this ego self-dialogue. So you're going back and forth and dialoging with these different aspects of you and just having like an open dialogue. around just to kind of bring it back, having an open dialogue around what's going on within your head, sometimes is all you need to do because it just kind of releases that, that energy around the thoughts that are happening and gets them out or even like writing it down.

I love it. You know, I think there's like a time aspect to it. Like you have to have time on your hands to be able to sit with your thought. And if you don't, like you're never going to get through that line. Like you're never going to understand, oh, this is a trigger because of this emotional charge. Like, you have to have real time to sit down and think about it. And so many of us today, you got a family. I got to drop the kids off at seven.

I got to make breakfast. And I got like three meat. You know, you have all these things you have to do. But if you don't make time to sit down with the thoughts that are important in your life, like you're never going to address them. You're never going to move forward. And it's quite a conundrum with our relationship with time these days, don't you think? Yeah.

And I agree 100%. I think the other thing is, too, you have to know who you are. without all the thoughts. I think that's important. Break that down for us. Yeah, so I'll give you, let's see, I'll give an example. So if you feel, let's say,

a lot of people will identify as being sensitive, right? So picking up other people's energies, you know, they're obviously like that's causing a lot of thoughts to happen. And you know, I can definitely understand that. So what I found was that,

I would go to the woods and I would go for a walk and a hike in the woods. And when I found when I went there was that I was able to connect with like my most authentic self. I was able to connect with who I truly am. The thoughts would subside. All the kind of energies, let's say, that weren't fully mine, would clear or dissipate. and I could experience who I was without everything else that was going on around me or inside of my head. So I would say that it's really important to find your place, your safe space, whatever it is, that you can go to to experience who you truly are underneath it all.

For me, that's nature and that's the woods. That's where I go. Nature is my church. I go out there and then everything just that's not mine or not me dissipates. So then I started to know when I would go back into these other situations or environments, I could really, that's, I think, where the discernment really started to develop. Because then I would say, okay, these thoughts only happen in these situations. These thoughts only happen around these people.

This energetic feeling only arises around this person or this experience. And I know how I feel when I step away from it all, which is ultimately my truest nature. So I think that really helped to find or start to build this practice of discernment because then I knew who I truly was. And then I could start to say, okay, these thoughts aren't mine. They're coming up for a reason, but they're not mine and they're not who I truly am. And I think thoughts in general, I think thoughts are really just like part of the collective unconscious and based on, you know, your situation or who you are, your past experiences or, you know, the, the, the, I'm sort of like on the word, but ultimately your beliefs, what you believe to be true. That's how you're going to pull those thoughts and those experiences and those people to you, truly based on like what you believed and believed to be true. true and are ultimately kind of like calling into your life. Yeah, that's that's beautifully said.

I think it speaks to the idea of going it alone on some level. Like, you know, you can see the threshold or people can show you the door, but like you got to go it alone. And I think that for me, I would encourage people that are building a relationship with psychedelics and you've done all the research. Obviously, I'm not a doctor. But for the people that are curious, there's something sacred about going it alone. You don't need other people. Like, obviously, if you have, like, a real problem, you should seek out somebody, if it's addiction or some sort of disorder, something like that, seek it out. But if you're like most people, go it alone. Like, find out, like, sacrifice yourself to the mystery. Like, that's where the gold is. Where you stumble is where you find the gold.

And when you go it alone, you find that you're the guide. You find that you're the person. You find that you're the organizer. You find that you're the leader. And it's interesting to think about the relationship you can build with inner ancestors. You know, I had a great podcast a while back with Eric Kaufman, is a tremendous teacher. And I was asking him about masks. Like, hey, Eric, what do you do, when you realize that you are wearing this mask and now you've taken it off? Do you burn it? Do you bury it or do you bow to it? And he started laughing. And he goes, I don't see it that way, George, because I don't see him as masks. I see him as inner ancestors. And that was the first time I really heard that lens. And he goes, you know what? And I,

I don't like to betray my inner ancestors. That guy that got, the guy that really wanted to make this thing happen, he wasn't capable of it. But you know what? I'm capable of it, only because of him. And that guy's cheering me on right now. And like, I get goosebumps when I think about it because it's such a cool lens to get to see it.

They're like, yeah, why not reward that guy? Instead of being shameful or sad, like, that guy was the guy that got you here or that girl was the person that got you here. And like, there's real, the voices stop. You know what I mean? The 3 a.m. voices, the 2 a.m.m. voices, the 2 a.m.m.m.m.m.m.m. to stop yelling at you when you start celebrating the person that got you there. What are your thoughts on masks versus inner ancestors?

Oh, I love that concept. I haven't heard that concept. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, you, you know, I don't believe that there ever needs to be shame for the people that we once were. We were that, like, we're all doing the best we possibly spend, you know, you'd hope, right? And we're just a collective, we're just basically like a collective of our own experiences. and surroundings and, you know, information that we have access to at that time.

So, you know, I try to always believe that people are doing the best they possibly can with the information that they've been given. So, yeah, you can only be, you know, who you're capable of based on that. And, yeah, that person that I was or that you were, it ultimately is what got you to, this place right now. And I'm, you know, I think for me, I just have nothing but love for those past versions of myself. And I'm, I'm proud of the past versions of myself. Like, for the amount of suffering, those versions of myself have gone through and, like, trauma and fear and darkness. And, like, you know, like the, you know, the, you know, scary experiences that that had to be

lived in the fear and worry and doom that, you know, I had to experience. And, you know, I think when I first started being more vocal about this work, and it was, I think I had a little bit of shame and maybe had to get comfortable talking about anxiety and panic attacks and panic disorder and ADD and drinking and, you know, taking pills, you know, all the medication that I took. And I definitely had, I guess some people will call it like you're coming out,

you know, with your sharing. all of this and there was a little bit of that and um but at the same time it's it's who i was and if i didn't go through all of that and if i didn't experience all of that like i wouldn't be able to do the work that i'm doing now i wouldn't be able to connect or help the individuals that um that i'm i'm able to because maybe they've had similar experiences or dealing with similar situations or had in the past. So, like, for me, like, I know everything that I went through, I had to go through not only for myself, but for other people.

And I think that that's very much the case for everybody. Yeah, I love it. I got some people stacking up over here to the audience. I have a picture of myself. My best friend just to make me. And I keep it here, just to remind myself of, like, you know, of our younger versions of ourselves and these kind of inner children that we, that we keep with us. And, you know, I think that like, this is who we should be making

proud, you know, is the younger version of ourselves that, you know, could hopefully, you know, if they were around today, would hopefully be looking up to you or maybe you would be able to help help them. But yeah, so it's always just a reminder of, you know, who we once were. I love it. Who, it reminds me of. the question, who were you before your name held you hostage? You know what I mean by that? Like when you're when you're a child and you have all these dreams. I worked at the Boys and Girls Club. I like to go down to volunteer sometimes and there's a little boy that's like, I'm going to be an astronaut, George. I'm like, yeah, totally. You could do you. Why do you want to be an astronaut?

And then some other kids are like, you'll never be an astronaut. And I'm like, why not? Like, why can't he be an astronaut? He could totally be an astronaut. But it's just so interesting to see the way in which, you know, our names on some level begin to hold a hostage like oh on this or on that you know it's it's interesting but so when you when you brought up that picture i was like i see this smiling little girl and like i see who you are today it's out there living life and exploring like i can still see that same girl there it's beautiful no thanks i think that like we i think we experienced this in our adult life too like there's always this like continuous like undoing and of like this like labeling of who we are and it's you know it's

it's always tough to describe when you're trying to like you know uh make a website or write and do your LinkedIn page like try to describe yourself it looks like it's it's really challenging because you don't want to use labels and stuff like that you know and um and then too you know i think as you are in this face i do for me like i always want to i'm always kind of coming into something new uh you know and there is this aspect of just like um i'm not one thing i'm not one thing i'm on many things. You know, I'm just, I appreciate so many different things and I want to engage in so many different things. So like just being a very like multifaceted, like multi-passionate individual like is very important to me. So sometimes I can even get caught up and like,

oh, is this too much? It's just like I just am just becoming. So whatever that version that's coming is just where I'm going and, and you know, we'll just see as it develops. But there's always like this weird thing that I can feel in my ego. And I think it's starting, it's subsiding more and more because it's just getting used to me just doing something new and becoming something else. But it's always like, oh, is that going to be weird or is that going to be too much? Or is this just like another, you know, is this, how is this going to look? And I just, you can't care.

You know, you can't worry about that or care anymore. You just have to like literally just be and just keep becoming more and more. And when I say more and more, it's just more and more of like your true self. More of more of what you can experience in this life. More and more of who you can be in this life to yourself and to others. And more and more ways to just like fully experience living this life. Like for me, like I just want to experience a lot. I want to, you know, help myself, help other people as much as possible.

Yeah. So I definitely think that like even growing up. Yeah, there's always, I think, that aspect that can hold you back. And I would say just never, never let it. Yeah, it's so true. It's the power of curiosity and the courage to follow it on so many different levels. Who do we got over here? Robert, Robert says, wow, refreshing light, courage, and perspective.

This is healing experience, just witnessing the compassion and testimony of personal responsibility. Robert, thank you for the kind words. It's beautiful to hear. Roberta, she, thank you. again, Roberta, for being here. I really appreciate your time and your effort and being part of this conversation. She says, I've observed the changes over past 15 years regarding ayahuasca that I didn't partake back then either and returned to England and I had my own unique spiritual experience. Yet back then, it included a sweat lodge, no meat. Last August, I did partake in silly meat, no sweat

lodge and folks eating meat. I messed up and didn't listen to myself. What are your thoughts on that, Jessica? Well, yeah, it sounds like she tapped into spirituality in ways other than psychedelic medicine, which absolutely is possible. I know we were talking about this with Dr. David Sullivan. I'm that guy. Yeah, there's plenty of ways that individuals can engage in spirituality. You know, spirituality, I think, is just like becoming more of your authentic self and evolving into more of your truest being. I think that that is like spiritual. spirituality right there. So there's plenty of ways that you can engage in that. But yeah, sweat lodge, engaging in music, you know, drum circles, dancing is a really incredible way to connect to

your spirituality as well. Fasting. There are plenty of ways to tap into spirituality. And I think it's very personal. It's very unique to you. And absolutely, psychedelic medicine is not not the only way. Obviously, it's a catalyst and they can fast track it for sure. But there are so many other ways to engage in spirituality. And I think it just has to be like a very, very unique, authentic, personalized path. And really, like, what is it that makes you question? You're, who you are, who you were, your belief system. What is it that awakens your new aspects of your soul that, you know, lights up your heart?

What is it that makes you retrieve parts of your soul that got fragmented off from past traumas? You know, what is it that allows you to start using your ego for your soul to do your soul's work? and not, you know, other types of egotistical practices. Yeah, and I think ultimately it's just spirituality is what allows you to become more conscious. And the more conscious you become, the more free you become. And I think the more free you become, the more connected to your spirit and full of spirit you become as well. So, yeah, there's many different ways.

So I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. Thank you, Roberta. Robert asked the question. He says, do you believe that creation naturally elevates those most qualified to help others to serve in that position national? I'm going to read that again. Do you believe that creation naturally elevates those most qualified to help others to serve in that position naturally? So let me see.

What do you think that that question means? So with George, would you say that that would be around? being creative and maybe tapping into creativity in order to be able to serve? I think to me it says the world makes leaders. The world as a school is creating the right individuals to help the right people. And I see it. There's a young man named Zachary Bird that was asking me about leadership and like, where are the leaders, George?

And I had mentioned to him, like, they're everywhere, but they're the person volunteering their time. They're the person in the crisis center. They're probably not the CEO. They're probably not the manager. They might be, but the real leaders are everywhere. It's our grandmother. And the truth is, we stop looking for leaders. That's when you become one.

And I think that this idea of nature creates the leaders. Like, they're everywhere. Like, there's genius in all of us. The genius is all around us. But we have somehow decided to put on these lenses where we've given people. people roles in ideas of leadership. And a lot of them, in my opinion, are not leaders. You know, when you start looking at the school system and you start realizing, you're going

to go to school for 25 years, you're going to be in all this debt. And then you come out and you have this degree and you're like, I'm ready to do it. And people are like, you don't have any experience. You have zero debt. Like, what does that do to an individual spirit when you were lied to for 25 years and you come out in the world shuns you? Like, that creates a lot of self-importance. That creates a lot of doubt.

And if you have so much debt, like, how are you supposed to get it? out of that day. Now you've got to go work for the machine. The machine doesn't care about you. The machine's like, okay, here's your role. Let me give you a label. And so I do think on some level, the environment, there's an intelligence on this planet that has been around longer than any of us. And it is in dialogue with us. It's opening up to us. And it is creating the leaders necessary to solve problems. They may not have a fancy name, but that's how I read that question, Robert, and that's how I would answer. Yeah, okay, I love that. And I agree. I think that there's like this, I think that we're raised with perhaps an incorrect perception of leaders and leadership.

Yeah. Well, so. Obviously, very, very much developed through a hierarchy and authority, maybe that people don't deserve. And of course, it's very much abused. Empower is much abused. Now, I think, like you said, there are individuals that are leaders, and to your point, we all have leadership within us, right? Right, right. I think the question becomes, how do you allow the leader within you to do your soul's work? Because everyone is a leader and everyone has the purpose, right? and it is a function of gaining maybe enough courage to live that out.

Everyone has their own unique purpose and because of that, they are a leader for that very specific thing. And there is an element of courage that is required to come out and authentically be that and authentically live that. And I think it's kind of like, I do think that. there are perhaps things that will happen in our life that's going to push you into that if you're not listening. And I think people will get that call, you know, and oftentimes people will refuse the call. That's the hero's journey.

Totally. Here's journey. And, you know, they'll be afraid of the call because I think that we don't maybe have enough examples of what these kind of like home. grown, just kind of like authentically developed leaders have been. So there isn't maybe so many people that we've been able to look to say to be good role models or good examples. And you know, that's not necessarily. There are obviously good leaders out there, but I think that maybe it's just this perception that we have of what leadership is, meaning running a company or you're, it's more just tied to like societal structure and, and business versus like being a leader in your community.

Yes. A leader in your friend group. And when I say that, that actually means like activating the leader in each and every one of those individuals in your friend group and in your community. So everyone knows like where their unique gifts are and how they can really allow them to come through. And ultimately when you do that, then you have to learn how to like, serve individuals basically, like how can you authentically express and authentically put yourself out there or put yourself in a situation where you can do your soul's work and you can serve the individuals that you are meant to support, you know, in that process.

It's well said. Thank you, Robert, for the question. I really enjoy it. I'm going to read this comment right here and then I'll get close to land in the plane. I know you're tight on time over here. Robert also says, the mask is there because in our current reduced state, we are capable of more power and manifestation than our neural pathways can process. I see the mask as the tool of diminishment that allows us to remain in this form to learn new lessons. Normally, when it is removed, it equates to great pain and transformation. I have the greatest audience in the world. Are you kidding me? This is so deep.

Thank you, Robert. I love it. It's amazing to me to think about masks. But as we're kind of coming up on this time right here, just because I wanted to give you some time to reflect. And like, what do you have coming up? What are you excited about? And where can we be looking to see more of what you're doing? Yeah, great question.

Let's see. So a number of different things. I do have a retreat that I am planning. So if you could follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram, I will be posting that. I don't have the final dates yet. but that will definitely be a really beautiful retreat, focusing on both like healing, transformation, you know, deconection and optimization within yourself. And then also I am doing a workshop for anyone that's local in Philadelphia.

I'll be doing a workshop May 8th around shadow work that will actually start with a shamanic drum journey to kind of awaken the shadow that's deep within you. I'll be doing an arch therapy exercise, a Jungian art therapy exercise throughout that process to kind of transcend the shadow from the darkness to the light and then close that out with a gum back to allow you to really embody this new version of yourself and this kind of light on the other side of the shadow. And then, of course, doing, we'd love to support any individuals that are interested in Jungian coaching or psychedelic integration. And then for any of my friends or community in the business world,

I am, of course, focused on integrating alternative healing modalities, whether that be psychedelics or any aspects of mindfulness and holistic practices into the traditional healthcare ecosystem, so whether that be integrating into the medical system or incorporating these, I guess, alternative, we wouldn't call them that, holistic modalities into an employer's wellness or benefits structure. I'm really looking to kind of bring these aspects and education on these modalities

into the corporate world because ultimately I want some more individuals to be aware and have the choice to access them if they'd like to engage. And then also doing work with drum circles too. So if anyone is interested in incorporating that and a team building, event or elsewhere, can always talk about that further. So that's top of my head. But follow, and connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram too, because I always share stuff live there. I'm so excited for all of it. And especially one part that's kind of near and dear to my heart is like the Youngian coaching you're doing. Like you have partnered with me to help out my project,

psychedelic science art, working with the artists that are reaching out to you. And I'm grateful for that. So I know I got some artists that are listening that I haven't got to yet. This is the youngian coach I've been telling you about. I'll put the links down below. Reach out to her. Schedule a call. Like this conversation is always mind-blowing. We're going to be doing more of them. But I want everybody within the sound of my voice to be able to go down to the show notes and take advantage of that phone call because I think you're brilliant. And I think the world needs more Jessica Tracy. So it's what we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope you had as much fun as we did. And to everybody in the comments section and everybody

chiming in. I'm totally grateful that you guys are all here. And we're looking forward to more conversations coming up. Ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got for today. Have a beautiful day. Aloha.