TrueLife - Jessie Monreal - Psychedelics & The Underground Railroad of Recovery

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Jessie MonrealFrom the neon edge of the human spirit, where shadows meet the first rays of a dangerous dawn—comes a voice forged in the fire of survival and sharpened by truth. Jessie Monreal walks the fault line between the clinical and the cosmic, holding in her hands the maps to both the labyrinth of addiction and the fragile bridges back to the self.Armed with a degree in addiction studies, a CADC, and the kind of hard-won wisdom no textbook could contain, she’s been there—seen the abyss, felt its pull—and clawed her way back with the raw defiance of a soul that refuses to be defined by pain alone.Jessie is more than a clinical case manager—she is a myth-breaker, a stigma-smasher, and a guide for those lost in the storm. She speaks with the loquacious fire of a rebel poet and the precise skill of a healer who knows that recovery is not just possible—it’s revolutionary.Tonight, she’s not just here to tell a story—she’s here to ignite something in you, to drag light into the places you’ve been told to fear. Buckle in, because the path we’re about to walk is beautiful, brutal, and absolutely real.This… is Jessie Monreal.www.wontstaydown.comhttp://linkedin.com/in/jessie-monreal-cadc-03221a100 One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Jesse, what's cracking? We were just talking a little bit before you started recording this that I had worked, I work in addiction treatment, but I don't work on. site at a program anymore. I spent the last like eight years prior to this job doing that, but but I don't now. I work from home still in the addiction treatment field, but yesterday I went

and covered shift on site at the program that I work for. And the main reason I did that was to be able to run group. I really for, it's funny because when I first started this job, like in this position as an intern back in 2015, that would have been like two years after. after I got sober, I was terrified of running group. I was, I mean, I'm so introverted. I'm so self-conscious, I'm so, and I was, I mean, it was really bad back then. And I used to like cross my fingers

that somebody in the group would be like real chatty so that I would have to talk less and I would get really nervous when there would be like silence and I would be like, oh my God, if a pause comes up and I don't know what to say. And like in my head so bad, it was so nerve-wracking for me. Whereas now I like go seek out opportunities to be able to do that. Because once I, once I got more comfortable doing it and then as time went on and I got more comfortable, I got better at it. Because I feel like running group to me is like I listen

to a lot of podcasts with a lot of comedians. I love comedy. Yeah, we do. Comedy. So listening to people, like, talk about the process of, like, evolving a special, a comedy special and, like, developing the bits and, you know, going up night after night and, like, perfecting each of the bits and making it put, like, that's not that different from, I was like, oh, that's, like, how the process of developing my groups has gone along. So now it's, it's like I've gone from how I was so nervous in the beginning to,

at the end, as long as I knew what topic I was talking about, I didn't prepare. I didn't. I just went in. And I could talk for the whole hour if, you know, if it was more of an educational group without like even thinking about it. And not only that, but when I was doing it, I think that was probably when I felt like I felt like I was doing what I was supposed to do when I would do that. you know, and that feeling I think isn't always easy to come by.

So if you find that thing to be able to do that, and especially if you can do it in the context of your employment, you know, that's really cool. And I mean, unfortunately, it was only one or two hours of an eight-hour day. And there was a lot of other bullshit that went along with the other six to seven hours. but the group part was something that like I personally was like, okay, this is something that I can, not only can I excel at and I can do well,

but this is really the part of the job where I am helping people the most. Like all the drudgery of working in addiction treatment, you know, I kind of mentioned right before we started reporting. You know, I had to spend a lot of time dealing with insurance companies, which is just soul-sucking. So, you know, having that part and being able to develop that part, like that was why I did that and walked in the door every day was for that, like, one hour.

Yeah, it makes so much sense. There's so many points in there that I want to pull on. And I think one of the first points that I think about is that in the beginning, when you are, sitting in group or we were sitting somewhere new for the first time, it is nerve-wracking because you're the person that's trying to figure it out. But I think it's those times being that person in the beginning that allows you to become the master afterwards. And I don't know if master is the right word, but it allows you to become more comfortable in your own skin to

start talking about it. And it's seeing the vulnerability of people around you. It's listening to the stories of people that are like, let me tell you something that I really dislike about myself. Like that is a really difficult thing to do alone, not to mention in front of a group of people like you don't know. Like, hey, let me tell you about this time. This horrible thing happened to me as a kid. And your mind's just racing. Like, does anybody really want to hear this? You know, oh my God, I can't love saying this shit out loud.

This is so great. What are my parents and my family for, you know? There's so much tension and like so much emotion that comes from that spot. But once you get comfortable with it, then you can notice it in other people. I think that's probably what makes you a good. good facilitator or group leader is the fact that you've had the courage to not only talk about it, but you've had the experience of going through it. There's something to be said about that. I think that that's where, like, experience is the foundation for becoming good at anything.

And that kind of leads me to where we are with psychedelics or stuff like that. Before we get there, what do you think about that? Like, you have to go through the experience. You have to understand the shame and the guilt that's in your own life. before you can help out other people that have shame and guilt in their life. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think that's really critical. And I think that, you know, because that's important for a multitude of reasons.

One, because especially in the addiction, and I just brought this exact point up yesterday when I was running group, when you're working with substance use population, when you're working with people who are in active addiction or very recently, discontinued their use and they've been doing this for a long time. Nobody can smell bullshit faster. So true. And an alcoholic or an addict because you deal in bullshit all day, every day. If you are, you know, some people are like very isolated users, but like a lot of people are around, most of the other people you're around are substance users and or people who are in full blown addiction. So those people are full of shit. They're lying. They're hustling. You're lying. you're hustling, like that looks different for everyone.

You know, for some people, it's like full on like stealing and stuff like that. But for some people, it's maybe not to that degree. But you're there's no addiction without lying. Yeah. Like it's just a it is a required part of it. So when you are a dishonest person, you know when somebody's being dishonest. You know what it tells you can smell it a mile away. So that's like first and foremost and actually kind of relationship.

to that when I first started going to school for addiction counseling. So I decided I wanted to go back to school in like 2011. This is while I was still drinking and all of that stuff. And I saw that there was an addiction treatment program. Originally I was going to look into nursing. I wasn't really bad. I just wanted to, I was working at a daycare and making like no money. So I'm like, I have to get paid better.

So then I saw addiction treatment and I started the program. program and I think in my mind it was really all about my family it was about my mom and you know I lost my mom to addiction I had lost so like it's just racked my family yeah and I think in the back of my mind at that point because this is close to the the end of active addiction for me like I knew I had a problem and I thought I don't know if I thought this was going to be like some way for me to just I'll do it myself I'll just learn about it and I'll outsmart it which is hilarious. You know, that doesn't work. Some of our most brilliant human beings who've ever walked the face of the earth have been taken out by addiction. You can't outsmart it. So it's so funny to me.

So I ended up, I did like one semester and then I actually lost another immediate family member to suicide at that time. And then I just quit school. I had another, year of drinking and then I got sober, but it was so funny to me later once I did get into the field and I did start spending time. I was like, there's no way. I was going to, what was I going to come in here every morning hung over like with my hands trembling? Like nobody would have seen through me faster than the clients. You know, so that's like a big part of it. But also I think for your own like your own conscience, because there are people who are still, and you'll see, for example, you see this like in 12 step

communities, in recovery communities where there are people who are good at like talking about recovery or they're good about whatever and their own shit, their ducks are not even remotely in a row, you know? And so, yeah, you could argue that like, well, it doesn't matter. What matters is the message. And like, yeah, I guess probably if you're eloquent and you can inspire people to change, but like, what about your own conscience? And that was where I, like, I had to sort out stuff as I was going through, like, I was sober, but I really struggled with, then my codependency came up. And then I had to look at like I was in a very actively toxic relationship with an alcoholic while I was coming to work and running groups on toxic relationships

and codependency. And I could speak about it very powerfully. But because, because I was in it. But then I would feel like such a sham. You know, I would feel like a hypocrite. And I don't want to feel like a hypocrite. I wasn't going to stop my job over it. But I think that, you know, it's important. And this is where it gets messy when you have people, you know, coming in maybe to work in a program like as peer support or, you know, even like myself, when I got into it, I was just barely two years sober. And that's a long time, but it's not a long time. Lots of people. relapse at two years, three years. And then what always scared me was when you bring somebody into that setting too soon as a staff member and the clients or the patients get to know them, and then they relapse. Like sure, it can be a teaching moment, but I also feel like you've got to be careful with that because a lot of the clients will look at that and go, well, if this person who I looked up to who had their shit together even like if even they can't yeah then I definitely can't because I I was marveling at how you know what I mean so like you just have to be it is important

to be stable and and you know there's other parts of it too where you in order to if you haven't worked through your shame and you're like I'm a lifelong people pleaser and you know a long history of insecurity, which means, you know, I don't like confrontation. Well, guess what? You're going to have to confront your clients with their bullshit behavior or you can't help them. So if I'm worried about upsetting people, if I still have this deep-seated need for people to always have positive feelings towards me, then how am I going to be an effective therapist? Like, that's not going to work. So it is really important, I think, too, you know, I don't know that anyone's ever fucking all the way healed or I'm very very wary of anyone who claims themselves to be like a finished product. Those people are

right. Dangerous people, I think. There's a lot of running around out there too. Lots of people that have all the answers. So I think that it is, there's a number of reasons why you have to have worked through, again, not to any sort of like, oh, I'm fixed, fixed, but like, you need to have processed like the brunt of it to where it's not going to spill out into your ability to be like a good clinician. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's, and you know, I think it, I think that exactly what you're explaining spills out into like everybody's life. Yeah. You know, the things that like you spoke earlier about there's no one that can smell

bullshit faster than someone who bullshits themselves. It's because we see, we see in other people, we see ourselves. And when you hear someone make an excuse that you have made a thousand times, you're like, oh, I see where they're at. I got it. And in some ways, like that's where the healing is because you realize you get to see yourself and like a third person point of view like, oh, that's what it sounds like when I make that excuse everybody knows i'm lying you know or that's what it sounds like when i do that and i think that that's

kind of what the beauty of the group is about whether it's an addiction or whether it's in a friend group or a peer group or even a family like you get to really see what it looks like and i think that also spells out quite a bit for you know there's that old law that says you are the five people you surround yourself with so when you get to be around these five people and you see the way they're acting you get to see yourself in them. And that's why if you're around a peer group that's crushing on some level, you start figuring out like, how come I'm not crushing? What am I doing wrong? You start looking at it like that. Or on the flip side of it, if you're around a group of people that are pretty self-destructive, you end up sort of, I don't know, kind of becoming that group of people. But yeah, I think it's so

much about the ideas of just seeing yourself in other people. And I don't know. It's interesting to think about it from that aspect and especially when you bring in comedy too so much a comedy just comes from pain and being able to laugh at it and getting other people to see the bullshit they're doing and laughing about it i don't think first of all i think but i mean probably like the more fucked up somebody's life was the funnier they were like by default if you rank the obedience and obviously that that turns out not good for a lot of them so like it's not great like i always joke with people though that like I'm trying to traumatize my son exactly enough to just make him funny but I mean not traumatized obviously but you know what I mean because some of the most

insufferable boring people I've ever met are people who have like never been through anything bad and I don't wish bad things on people but at the end of the day like adversity at least is necessary, I think, to really develop, like, good character. And I think that I think that my own sense of humor really was probably one of the defense mechanisms that allowed me to survive. I mean, my childhood was so traumatic and I was so insecure as a result of that. But being able to make people laugh, like, that's an intoxicant in and of itself, you know? And also, I mean, in the job, and then later,

like in this line of profession, I mean, I had a really good friend of mine who I worked with for years at the first program that I worked at. And she, I was the case manager in the residential program. She started there as an intern. And then she was the case manager for the women's halfway house program. And we would like, at least, once a day be in each other's offices like literally sitting on the floor like hiding from our clients taking a break and like we would joke though that if anyone heard the jokes that we made and the dark humor yeah it would be like you guys are sick but we it was like a pressure release valve when you are just being smacked in the face from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. by other people's trauma. It's so heavy. On top of it,

you're losing clients to, you know, you're coming, I'm coming in some days and some 27-year-old girl who just left my sight two days ago who did so wet she's gone. You know, just the opioid crisis and like just you it's so heavy if you can't laugh even if outsiders would be like there is something seriously fucking wrong with you for laughing at what you laugh at like whatever that's fine you don't know what it's like to yeah have to function inside of this and if you don't laugh it you're not going to last you're going to it's going to hurt and also like to bring that back to running groups same thing. Like you can only, there's some stuff that's so heavy.

You know, eventually you have to bring in a little bit of, you got to lighten it a little bit. You know, if you think about like anytime you've ever gone to a funeral, what are people doing? A lot of times they're telling stories about the person that are funny and everyone's kind of laughing and remembering because that feels better than just, you know, of course they're so grief. But I think that humor literally saves people's lives in hard situations. Yeah. You can't move forward if it's always dark. And humor brings the light. Like it brings the lightness to the situation.

And when you can start laughing at something, I think you can start getting over it because you're past. If you're just stuck in the traumatic, you're just stuck in the pain of it. Like it's irremobile. You can't move. You're stuck. If you see a little bit of light, if you can start laughing a little bit of. bit. It begins to open up the doors to see the situation in a different way. And like, you're like, oh, that's kind of fucking funny. If you really think about it, it's kind of fucking

funny. You know, and then you could be like, okay, you can laugh a little bit. You start moving through it. And I think with laughing comes the end of, or at least the beginning of moving past shame and guilt because those are such heavy, heavy threshold guardians. And laughter does when some level brings it through. And you know what for me, psychedelics does that because I've, I've sat down with some horrible events in my life, whether it was people in my family that had attempted suicide or people that I love dying. And, you know, for me, moving past that came from my use with psychedelics, where I got to see it in a third person point of view.

And you remember, like, I remember my sister had tried to commit suicide. And I remember going to the halfway house after she had got out of there and like, they're cracking jokes in there. And I'm like, I remember walking into the place and being like, holy shit, this place is sketchy. I definitely don't want to ever come here. You go in there and everybody's cracking a joke. And you're like, these people are pretty fucking funny. Like, there's some real shit going on here.

And you get to, I think you get to understand that they're all connected. Like the pain is part of the humor. The humor is part of the darkness. And then you get to see how it functions as a whole and realize that it doesn't have to be one or the other. Like they're connected on some level. At least for me, that's been a big part of my journey and getting through some difficult times is that realizing they're all connected. And you can find the humor in the darkness. And you can find the darkness in the humor on both ways.

Yeah. And I think that's alchemy, isn't it? Like you're turning something really, really heavy into something lighter. And you know what? It might be funny today and then not funny again tomorrow, but funny one of the days. is better than heavy all of the days and and there you can't you know if you're thinking about it like in a therapeutic setting like it wouldn't be therapeutic to just every day just go sit in there and just talk about like yeah now that said you also have to like I've worked with many people who it is there like

go it's class clown energy it's there I said it to a guy yesterday within like five minutes of me being there I was like oh you got in trouble in class a lot as a kid didn't you because you never up. And he's funny. And that's where it can get tricky is when you have someone like that you're working with who it's a lot easier to tell someone to tone it down when they're a class clown and they're not funny. You're like, all right, nobody likes it. Yeah. But when somebody is like legitimately funny, you can get caught up in that and the group can get caught up in that. But then the problem is that guy or that girl, they're not going to get helped because you are enabling their defense mechanism because it's so effective. It's roped you into it. And there are some people who like

everything is a joke. And it's like, okay, just like we just talk, it's like the yin and the yang. It's like just like there's a time, even in all the darkness for a joke, everything can't be a joke and there has to be time where you're serious. And we have to go, you turn up the funny every time we get close to a topic that like you don't want to go there with yourself. So you can't let that slide the whole time either. Otherwise, you're in danger of that person walking away from whatever program they're in and not really having gotten to the core of the issue. Because some people have defense mechanisms that are, they're like unpleasant or obvious or avoiding or they're lashing out and getting angry when it comes up. And those things are like easier to be like, oh, this is a problem defense.

But when somebody is just really funny and gregarious, that's harder to move that out of the way. Sometimes you don't even realize that you've gotten caught up in their very effective defense. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. On some level, it's a total defense mechanism. And when you get good at it, you start laughing at everything, then you don't really have a reason to change. Because now you're rewarded for every time you get close to the thing you need to. fix you just laugh it off and and then you know i think you run the risk too of like people never

taking you seriously like if you're always funny no one ever takes you seriously they don't want to be around you for a while and then you know they start realizing like oh this person's actually like pretty sad you know they're always laughing these things it takes away all the momentum when you think about like again going back to comedians you think about somebody who is really think about somebody like Chris Farley. Oh, yeah, exactly. You're expected to be on all the time. You have to be funny all the time, which means like, what if Chris Farley was having a bad

day and all of his whatever, you know, enabling partiers or fans come around? Like, they see Chris Farley like just being shut down or nobody wants that Chris Farley. But what if that's him that day? Obviously, the guy had a lot of darkness. That's well known now. And it took it out. but like you've set yourself up to where you're not allowed to be anything besides that is the expectation is you're the guy who makes everyone laugh all the time but like what about on the days that you don't feel like life is very funny and then you don't have permission from yourself or anyone around you to be like hey I'm hurting like I'm struggling I have dark thoughts in my head because the persona has become so like magnified that you're now just like a caricature and not a real person.

There's definitely danger in that. I think that happens across the board, like not just for people that are funny, but like, you get like a lot of the CEO types or, you know, pick your, pick your whatever avenue you want to go in,

whether it's business or comedy or sales or whatever. Like when you stop being that persona that everybody thinks you are, like you're kind of typecast. Like you have to be, you think you have to be that person all the time. and you get stuck in that identity, which brings us to the idea of identity and drug use or identity and depression or identity and anxiety. Like, identity is a real motherfucker.

Like, it'll really force you into some spots or force you into a mold. You can even say society does that. Like, if you look at the way we're brought into society, it tries to typecast you in a way and put you in this mold that's immoluble. And of course people are going to get stuck. Of course people are going to get hurt. Yeah, we like don't like to allow for people to change and evolve. We like shit on people for that.

It's super weird to me. I, you know, I wrote something a while back where I kind of talked about that about, you know, if you change your mind on something, you're like seen as wishy-washy or like, you know, you think about people like CEOs, you know, who like walk away from roles that they had are like, you know, famous. like you think about like Ram Dass, you know, this Harvard professor who like, and then he comes back from India and he's in beads and he's got to, and people are, what is going on? Because you're like chained to this. And we burn people at the cross of their old tweets on a regular basis, you know, or even just be like, oh, well, yeah, you're saying this now,

but I found this Reddit thread from when you were 17 where you said something that is opposite of this. So you're a liar. And it's like, dude, like, if you still, especially if you're talking about between like the ages of like, you know, you're, you're roasting somebody for some shit they did at age 20 and now they're 35. Like, do you, are we supposed to be the same and feel the same and think the same at 35 as we did at 20? Like, the only reason I'm still alive is because I evolved. My opinions have changed. And I think that we have. have things that are fairly steadfast, like your morals and your values, you know, those largely, and not even not that they don't adapt or, but they're more kind of solid, right?

Yeah. But opinions, like, what are you going to be somebody who has an opinion? And then you're presented with new information about that. And the new information is valid and true. And you're like, sorry, this is my opinion. I'm keeping it. And it's like, well. And people are like that.

and they look dumb as shit. Yeah. It's not good. You've got to be willing to move. You've got to be willing to change with the new information. And there's so much science around it, too. Like, I think every seven years your taste buds change or every cell in your body is being replaced every so many years. And if that's true, which a lot of science says it is, then like, of course your thoughts should change.

The way you move through the world should change. You should be growing. You know what? on some level this brings me to the idea of like rights of passage it seems like that's a big part of why we're so stagnant is that there's no recognition of a right of passage anymore you know and when you look back to different traditions or like i like to read lots of different mythology and there's always these ceremonies where a young man or a young woman or young kid becomes a becomes a man or a woman and then there's like another ceremony when an adult becomes an elder and

like your roles change we don't we don't really have that in the west we just have this i this antiquated idea of you go to school you get a job and you retire like it's such a horrible well maybe it's not horrible but i think it's a myth that's being that's served its time and if you look at the way society's changing like now a young person can come up and have five careers you know they can do six different things instead of being someone that worked at a place for 30 years and then retired. Right. I don't know. When I should have to look back on that myth, it makes me kind of sad. Like you so many people, myself included, have spent a large part of their life doing one thing. And I'm not saying that can't be beautiful, but aren't you sort of not living your life if you

just do this one thing without branching out and getting to experience the beauty and magical, mystical part of life. That's why we're here to live a life and have experiences. And when we get caught up in a system that doesn't care or just sees it as a number, it kind of sucks our soul out. And I mean, that's why so many people, I think, turn to different escapes, whether it's alcohol or different drugs. Like, it allows you to experience life in a way that you've been cut off from.

It brings you back to the fun a little bit. It brings you back to the unknown and the uncertainty, which people crave. I don't know. I think it's your part of it. What do you think? I think so, too. And I think that, you know, like you said, it's like very ambiguous. There's no marker of transition.

And then I think add to it the fact that, you know, kids go to school and they get education. They get information. And doctoration. Yeah. But they don't get, you know, like in, you know, some of the other cultures and you think about mythology and people have like things that are more along the lines of like, apprenticeship or you know like working with elders like teachers aren't elders teachers are purveyors of information and and i'm not at all denigrating like what teachers do i could i could never and i give them a lot of credit it's not them it's the whole system as a whole yeah is

giving kids a bunch of information preparing them actually for the real world and i would argue like No, not at all. I mean, think about when you leave, even like my, when I went to school for addiction counseling, like sure, some of the classroom stuff was helpful. But most of it is you're going to learn when you get in the real world, the classroom ideas and philosophies that you talk about. Like philosophies are adorable. Totally. It doesn't mean they're on paper, sure. But that's not necessarily going to transition. into the real world. And I think that's what happens to kids a lot. And another thing you said is like, you know, as far as just like escapism and, and, you know, using drugs and alcohol, younger generations are drinking much less, much less.

Yeah. They're smoking more weed, like, or using more, you know, THC. But they have social media. That's their drug. Yeah. They have their phones. All of them do. We all have it.

Like we're past the point of like, we need to do away with like, okay, that ship is sailed. Yeah, that's never going to happen. But that's what they have. And instead of rights of passage, it's like instead they're just being hit with this like onslaught of other people's lives and what other people's lives look like. And in the meet, which is curated and fake, by the way. And in the meantime, they're going to school, but they're not getting anyone like, I mean, I've seen so many great memes about. like, you know, about high school and like the one that says something along the lines of like, hey, can somebody teach me about taxes? And it's like, shut up and square dance.

You know, the absolutely ridiculous shit that they, why? That's never going to apply in the real world. In the meantime, you're not teaching kids about taxes or mortgages or anything that is of any use. You're just like, here, spend a lot of your formative years in a setting that is actually probably like biologically not even great for kids to just stick them in a chair from the age of five for a large portion of their day and just flood them with information when they should be playing outside and then be like, okay, now go be in the world. And then when they're not good at being in the world, all the old people are like, these fucking kids are idiots. They don't know how to act. And it's like, well, we'd set them up to fail almost with some of this stuff.

And then or then they go into college, which is another four or eight years of like, you know, sometimes flat out like ideology and just. And then they go in the real world with a degree that's not even, it doesn't even translate into a real job. And and then what? You know, and then they feel like hopeless and purposeless and aimless because all of this was supposed to build up to something and nothing. happened. And the world is actually kind of shitty to you at that point. It's not, it's just, I don't know. I don't know what the solution is to that. Yeah. It's such a brilliant point. You know, I, when I think about, like I, when I think about the difference between generations, you know, on some level when, and I'm not, on some level, when I look at my parents,

or even my grandparents, there were like these defined roles that they knew that they were kind of going to get into. And it worked because they could go to school and they could find one of these sort of cutouts that were pre-designed for people to go into, whether it was, you know, doing something with taxes or whether it was being a truck driver or whether it was being a math teacher or whatever designed role was out there. Like you could you could lateral into one of those jobs, And you get a job and you can support a family. You know, and when you look back far enough, I know I was raised primarily by my aunt and my uncle who were a product of the 50s. And my uncle worked at the gas and electric company.

And he worked there his whole life for like 40 years. And he went to work and my aunt stayed home and they had two kids. And I think they bought their house for like $7,000. And I realized that the amount of money was different. Like he was only making a few bucks an hour or something like that. But when you look at the dynamics of wealth that have changed, no kid's going to go to school and come out and buy a house for $7,000. No kid, unless you got the golden ticket, unless maybe you scored a perfect day on your SATs and you got the opportunity to go to like an Ivy League education. And you made an incredible network of people and you can still transition into a life where you could live that lifestyle.

But those days are gone. Like those, there's no longer, it's very limited. I think maybe some of those places are still there, but it doesn't seem like the kids that today have the same opportunities as the last generation. And that creates this generational divide where you do have people that are in the older class or the boomer class that are like, these kids are fucking lazy. They don't do shit. They don't know anything. It's like, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

They're not lazy. Some of these kids are doing way more shit and they're growing up in a world that you guys have no idea. You guys can't even turn on a goddamn computer. You're telling me this kid's lazy. Wait a minute. And the same thing for some of the younger kids. Like they look at that other class of boom was like, fuck you guys, you guys had it so easy.

You guys had a $7,000 house, you know. And so I think for us as like Xers, we're like in the middle here. You kind of see both sides a little bit. But there's no doubt the world is changing at a pace that it has never changed out before. And what that means for the future. I'm not sure. I think it does open up opportunities. I think there are new opportunities and new fields.

You know, there's all these sort of new dimensions opening up for the younger generation. It might not be there, but it's still in transition. I feel like we're in this giant transition and no one really knows where it's going to end up. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, part of it has been the whole, and I think we've gotten away from it a little bit, the whole, like, everybody needs to go to college. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

know it was just like automatic by default like you so my son for example is a really smart kid and he'll be a senior this year he took his SATs at the end of last year and he did really well like a 28 or a 30 or something like that so we're getting like but he is he's in a firefighter um cadet program right now and And he's interested in going into the fire service. And he's also this year doing half days, his senior year. And then he's doing a dual enrollment where he's going to learn how to weld at the community college. You know, so he's very interested in potentially going into the trades. And like, so here's this whole thing.

I think with how we've been like, I understand that gender roles have been like maybe not necessarily helpful. And you could point to a lot of flaws in that, whatever. But they also had, like, like you said, it allowed people who maybe didn't have something speaking from their soul when they were 18 about what their purpose in life was, which who the fuck even has that? Maybe 1% of the population. Like, so people could be like, oh, this is what I, here are probably some predetermined options for me. And so, like, trades and construction, like, I think there's so many people who just poo on that. That it's like for dummies who can't hack it in college or who flunked out of school. And it's like those guys are laughing at you all the way to the bank.

Because out of high school, they've got the best insurance. They're making good money. Of course there are drawbacks. Your body gets beat up. But that's everything. Yeah. You're going to have to pay the Piper in the long run. there are sacrifices that get made in the long run regardless of what it is. So my son has zero

interest, zero interest in college. He has counting down, he's been counting down high school to be over since, I don't know, sophomore year. He's over it. He and honestly, some of the stuff he says is like, he's not wrong. He's like, mom, this shit's dumb. I'm never going to use any of this shit in real life. He took honors classes in high school. Like he wants to do, again, either fire service or trades. And last year, he's doing like literary analysis of poems from the 1800s. He's like, why am I doing this? Why do I have to, you know, and whatever, because you have to. Because that's the way that it's set up. But like, I'm not going to push him to go to college, even though he would do really well and probably get an academic scholarship at a good school,

like for what? If he's got a plan, he's got a plan. Yeah. And I don't think that that is the route for everyone and I do think that it's turned around a little bit, but I've seen, you know, a little bit of like the crushing weight of pressure that a lot of kids feel about college and how they do in college and knowing what they want to do for the rest of their lives at the end of high school. school that's such a trip because i know when i was growing up it was like you have and i didn't

go to college i i went to like a community college for like two years but i remember my parents be on my list and you have to go to college like this is the only way for there to be social mobility if you want to be up here you have to do that but when i look back like the most successful people in my family like i got tons of millionaires in my family and my uncle jerry he owns a truck yard my little cousin ryan he owns a farm a little cousin betsy her and her husband were plumbers and then she opened a gym like my stepdad did drywall and like all of it and they crushed it like and you know that you realize that this idea that we were sold that college is for everybody and i get the foundation behind it like who doesn't want a smarter more more refined society

But I think that that was a lot, on some level, the schools began failing us. And I think there's something to be said about. It's not for everybody. And there was a period of time, probably like in the 80s through 2000, where it was like everybody should go to college. And I can understand the, I can understand the reasoning for that. Like everybody wanted their kids to be at this highest level. But I have gotten to the point where, and I hope people listening can take something from

this. And it is don't give your kid all the things that you never had. Don't try to give them all the things you never had as a kid. Teach them all the things that you didn't learn. I mean, it gets a better trade-off. Like, if you can teach your kids the things that you wish you would have learned versus trying to give your kids all the things you never had. That moves you out of like the material realm and chasing this dream of becoming like a multi-millionaire

versus teaching someone to be a whole person and realizing that it's not what you have. in life, it's who you are. Genius comes from character. It doesn't come from millions of dollars. You can build character through hard work. You can build character through sacrifice. You can build character by building people around you that you care about. And that kind of ideological shift, you know, it doesn't, like the trades are phenomenal.

You've been around forever. And in some ways, the trade architecture mimics the architecture of the apprentice, which is probably a better form of schooling. going and listening to someone who may have never actually lived or done the job in the real world. And you have people lecturing on things and they've never done them. They're missing the experiential part of that. And that doesn't translate. I can tell you about recovery and drugs.

But if I have never done them, I don't know shit about them. I'm just reading something I could buy at a Barnes & Noble for $7.99. It's better to go read the book and have the experience than listen to someone who's never done it. So I spoke to hear about your stomach. That's such a brilliant option. And it's inspiring to get to hear stories of young people that are finding things that they want to do and then pursuing those things instead of wandering aimlessly and trying to listen to people, tell them how to do things. Yeah. And I think, you know, two things from that.

First being, you know, you think about like the situation of like, you know, somebody like, like, somebody like, Kevin Hart, right, who came from a lot of poverty, a really tough background. This is, you know, he's just one, right, you know, example of this. There's tons of them. And now he's a multi, multi, multi millionaire. Right. And his kids are going to have a very different. And you kind of think about like, it's like the son of the king or the son of the CEO,

whereas you have the person who built the empire. And then they know what it's like to scratch and fight and be traumatized. And they don't. And of course, the whole, if you have kids, you're like, I'm building this for my kids. This is going to. Yeah. And I've worked with so many people who you can end up with the same horrible outcome for a person with both extremes. So you neglect a kid, you traumatize a kid, all of that.

And they end up all. up, right? Also, you overvalue a kid. You do everything for the kid. You hand everything from the kid. You insulate them from all adversity. You give them opportunities that they did not work for and they end up in the exact same place with very similar issues, although sometimes they're even harder to help because they see no flaws in themselves because they've been overvalued and told that they deserve everything without doing anything for them. And then guess what? People like that tend to end up very lonely because who the fuck wants to be around somebody like that? Oftentimes you train somebody to be selfish and entitled when you raise them that way. So I'm

very mindful of that because the whole reason I'm sober is so that my son doesn't have the childhood that I have that I had because my mom was an alcoholic and because we had nothing, not nothing compared to what some people have, but we had nothing emotionally. And there wasn't a lot of food in our house. And we didn't have a lot of, you know, we didn't go anywhere. We didn't. It was tough. Yeah. And I don't want that for my son. But at the same time, I want my son to have a work ethic. I probably give him a little bit more spending money sometimes than I should because of that thing in me where I didn't get any of that. And I don't want him to feel like I felt where other kids got to do stuff or like if he wants to go get something to eat, you know, little things like that.

but I think there is a balance there that can be walked where again you know adversity is important so I don't I don't think my son at least God bless is not in a traumatic environment like I was but like this is also where I think sports can be valuable yeah totally we've always kind of put him in like I've always kind of tried to get him into the combat sports he did wrestling in high school for two years and went him to a couple of camps like you want to talk about adversity like wrestling is a really really really tough sport so things like that where you can kind of create it i think is valuable um and then the other thing is like you said where we have you know people who go and learn something and in a school but then you know i this was

something else i talked with somebody yesterday about it's really a shame that we don't value people's work experience the way that we value a piece of paper. Yeah. Especially in like the mental health space. And I'm not saying that degrees aren't important. I'm not saying that the training and the boundaries and the ethics. I'm not saying that. But there were many times along the way that I, I'm a lowly associate's degree holder and I just have my CADC. So I've always just been like a therapist or a case manager, not like the people who have LCSWs or LCPCs and, you know, they're higher paid and they're more responsibility, whatever. But how many times along the way that, you know, when I was four or five years into my career, that a client would come to me and say, I would rather talk to you

when their other option was somebody who had a double master's degree. And because what that means, if you have a master's degree is that you are good in a classroom and you are good at tests. And this is not saying that everyone isn't. But that doesn't necessarily always translate to being able to relate to people. And if you know anything about therapy or the therapeutic process or different therapeutic modalities, yes, there are some therapeutic modalities that are like more effective on paper than certain other ones, but it's kind of similar to the thing where with a diet, there is no diet that's really more effective or better than others. It's the diet that you'll stick to. So if keto

works better for, if that's what they'll stick to, that's the diet that works for them. With therapy, it's not necessarily about CBT or D. It's about the therapeutic alliance. So the modality of the treatment is, but also the therapeutic alliance means that if you're a good clinician, you can recognize, It's like this person is a walking trauma diagnosis. So CBT is actually going to be maybe not the most helpful thing for them, at least right now, because CBT is highly cognitive. And this person needs how to work with their nervous system first. This person needs to learn how to regulate their emotions and calm their body down when it's in fight or flight before they're going to be able to go,

oh, I can recognize I'm having distorted thoughts right now. Like when your body is screaming and in an emergency, you don't even, you can't even connect to that part of that brain where your coping tools are stored. So therapeutic alliance allows somebody to like have a bond with somebody and have trust with somebody so that they can sense what's going on. And also that like, again, if the patient doesn't trust the therapist or feel comfortable or related to them, they're never going to open up all the way. And then how are they going to be helped? you know so I wish there was a little bit more value on that like it's it's unfortunate that even though I've been doing this for 10 years I'm extremely limited on what I can do professionally in the mental health space because I don't have an LCSW or an LCPC or a master's degree or

even a bachelor's degree yeah yeah I think like I I rally against this all the time like I think so much credentialism is such bullshit. You know, when the only... Yeah, it is. And, you know, when the only filter is money, like weak filters create weak leaders and

weak leaders run people off a cliff. You know, and especially when it comes to therapy, like, you know, there should be way more filters in place. I think the people, on some level, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but if someone wants,

to be a therapist, like that person should be pulled aside and question why. Why? Why do you tell me about suffering? Tell me what you know about suffering and then I'll tell you if you should be a therapist because so many people that get into things, they're trying to fix themselves. And what kind of a person can help another person when they can't help themselves? And I see it so much, especially like in psychedelics, like I rally against the schools all the time because it seems to me the only bar you need to pass for you. for entry is having enough money to buy it and that is bullshit to me like that alienates 80% of the people that would be the most effective at helping other people cope with problems this person

can't buy your stupid certificate for 20 grand and you know what how many people are passing your class anybody that takes your stupid program is going to pass because they have 20 grand like what does that mean what does that piece of paper even mean when people are just outright buying it like that is nothing It's stupid and it just cuts off all the people that would be great teachers because they can't afford to do it. So like I get I get so mad at credentialism and I realize that it has there's good teachers that have tons of experience and they need to get paid for their time and they're trying to help other people. But we've lost our way. We've lost our way when it when the only barrier is money. That alienates so many people.